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Transgendered and sports
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"Born with a cock ya male" Was the question to difficult for you | |||
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"Not at all is it difficult for you to understand...cock male ...pussy female ..if that is what you are born with ...or oh I feel trapped...u can change but does never disguised...fact" But that wasn’t the question was it.  | |||
"Not at all is it difficult for you to understand...cock male ...pussy female ..if that is what you are born with ...or oh I feel trapped...u can change but does never disguised...fact" what you don't realise is in this day and age of gender neutral you can basically call yourself whatever you wish to... And that is, a, fact. Your comment only suggests, to me you in fact know nothing at, all about the likes of us. | |||
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"Hopefully women's football will become full off trans women in the not too distant future, then it might at least become watchable.." Okay going from a different angle we have the Olympics and the amazing paras and the invictus games why not trans games x | |||
"I don't know much about this, so this is a perfectly innocent question to transgendered people. Would you object to sports events having 3 categories of competition - male, female and transgendered?" Because they're actual real women. Deffo  . | |||
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"Not at all is it difficult for you to understand...cock male ...pussy female ..if that is what you are born with ...or oh I feel trapped...u can change but does never disguised...fact" what if you're born with male and female genitals ?? | |||
"Not at all is it difficult for you to understand...cock male ...pussy female ..if that is what you are born with ...or oh I feel trapped...u can change but does never disguised...fact what if you're born with male and female genitals ?? " Sweet baby Jesus. The first question was too difficult for him, don’t blow his mind with that one. | |||
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"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. " Are you confusing transgender With xy46 ( DSD) ? | |||
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"Like many issues relating to trans people, this is not a clear cut matter. 1. "Born with penis" does not automatically mean stronger/faster than all women. Very likely stronger/faster than some women. But also quite possibly weaker/slower than some women. 2. Any male to female trans person who is on hormone therapy will lose muscle mass. However the exact level of strength loss may vary. 3. Post-puberty hormone therapy will not affect height, so any advantage given by leg length will remain. However not every male is taller than every female. 4. Some women have natural testosterone levels higher than some men. An MTF trans person on hormone therapy will generally in fact have lower testosterone levels than the majority of women. 5. The above all refer to MTF transition, but there are equivalent points relating to FTM transition. The above are not an exhaustive list. Does this mean that trans people in sport should be treated exactly as cis people? Probably not. Should they be blanket excluded? Certainly not. But a much more nuanced view is required than the majority of postings in this thread. " About the only way to address so much variation and fluidity, is to treat all sport like the Paralympics. Where effectively your performance is not just measured against the competition, but adjusted for severity of your disability. But then again, sport has always been about "unfair" advantage. Just look at the rugby, it's not about being good at ball handling and running, but you also need to (naturally) be a big bugger. | |||
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"Caster Semenya is the lady from South Africa. She won, then lost, then re-won titles. Because her testosterone was too high. " Semenya is xy 46 ( DSD) A condition which means she has female & male genitalia. But where 1 is suppressed by doctors & prescribed treatments. As the silver & bronze medal winners were also xy 46 , there is a huge debate on muscle memory. Xy 46 will develop bigger hearts bigger muscle capacity etc while still being women with massively underdeveloped gonads & male genitalia | |||
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"Caster Semenya is the lady from South Africa. She won, then lost, then re-won titles. Because her testosterone was too high. Semenya is xy 46 ( DSD) A condition which means she has female & male genitalia. But where 1 is suppressed by doctors & prescribed treatments. As the silver & bronze medal winners were also xy 46 , there is a huge debate on muscle memory. Xy 46 will develop bigger hearts bigger muscle capacity etc while still being women with massively underdeveloped gonads & male genitalia" Yes, nothing in life is ever black and white. It upsets those unable to think in more than a binary way. | |||
"Hopefully women's football will become full off trans women in the not too distant future, then it might at least become watchable.." It's not easy playing football in 5 inch stilleto heels  | |||
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"It won't be long until people born Male will be world leaders in all sports in all genders, amazing times. " Who asked you what sex you wanted to be when you were born? | |||
"I don't know much about this, so this is a perfectly innocent question to transgendered people. Would you object to sports events having 3 categories of competition - male, female and transgendered?" Wouldn't it be 4 categories? Male Female Transgendered Male to Female Tranagendered Female to Male. | |||
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"It won't be long until people born Male will be world leaders in all sports in all genders, amazing times. Who asked you what sex you wanted to be when you were born? " Same person who asked me what race i wanted to be. | |||
"It won't be long until people born Male will be world leaders in all sports in all genders, amazing times. Who asked you what sex you wanted to be when you were born? " God flipped a coin and bomb you were either male or female. There's a reason why men don't compete against women in sports it's because we're better and it wouldn't be a fair competition, they should at least make trans women compete with men because clearly they have an advantage other biological women | |||
" God flipped a coin and bomb you were either male or female. " And what do you say to Caster Semenya? | |||
" Same person who asked me what race i wanted to be. " Is there such a thing? One species, one skin. | |||
" Same person who asked me what race i wanted to be. Is there such a thing? One species, one skin. " Bless x | |||
"It won't be long until people born Male will be world leaders in all sports in all genders, amazing times. Who asked you what sex you wanted to be when you were born? God flipped a coin and bomb you were either male or female. There's a reason why men don't compete against women in sports it's because we're better and it wouldn't be a fair competition, they should at least make trans women compete with men because clearly they have an advantage other biological women " I totally agree with this especially because there's men purposely identifying and trans women to win competition and even breaking records this madness needs to stop. Imagine you have a daughter that's trained hard all her life to get beaten by a man in a skirt come on has some sense people | |||
" God flipped a coin and bomb you were either male or female. And what do you say to Caster Semenya?" Thank for ignoring the 2nd paragraph I wrote, just proves you don't have an answer because you know it's the truth | |||
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" God flipped a coin and bomb you were either male or female. And what do you say to Caster Semenya? Thank for ignoring the 2nd paragraph I wrote, just proves you don't have an answer because you know it's the truth " My money’s on Serena Williams beating you at tennis. | |||
"What do you say to Caster Semenya, btw?" Surely she should be a para athlete? She's essentialy born disabled, too high testosterone. If someone was born with 3 legs and could run at 30mph would they be allowed to compete with "standard" humans? | |||
"What do you say to Caster Semenya, btw? Surely she should be a para athlete? She's essentialy born disabled, too high testosterone. If someone was born with 3 legs and could run at 30mph would they be allowed to compete with "standard" humans?" According to this argument, any man who is an extra inch taller or has a genetic condition giving them increased strength, speed, endurance, whatever, is no longer a "standard human" and must not be allowed to compete with "standard humans". Hey, we'd better not allow any competition between those Caucasian types and those non-Caucasian types, because of the unfair genetic advantage. Better make sure that no basketball player is taller than 5' 10". Sumo wrestlers mustn't weight more than 12 stone. Chess players must be certified to have an IQ of exactly 100... | |||
"What do you say to Caster Semenya, btw? Surely she should be a para athlete? She's essentialy born disabled, too high testosterone. If someone was born with 3 legs and could run at 30mph would they be allowed to compete with "standard" humans? According to this argument, any man who is an extra inch taller or has a genetic condition giving them increased strength, speed, endurance, whatever, is no longer a "standard human" and must not be allowed to compete with "standard humans". Hey, we'd better not allow any competition between those Caucasian types and those non-Caucasian types, because of the unfair genetic advantage. Better make sure that no basketball player is taller than 5' 10". Sumo wrestlers mustn't weight more than 12 stone. Chess players must be certified to have an IQ of exactly 100..." Indeed. Michael Phelps is the classic example here. He apparently produces half the amount of lactic acid as other swimmers, so he gets tired less easily. | |||
"What do you say to Caster Semenya, btw? Surely she should be a para athlete? She's essentialy born disabled, too high testosterone. If someone was born with 3 legs and could run at 30mph would they be allowed to compete with "standard" humans? According to this argument, any man who is an extra inch taller or has a genetic condition giving them increased strength, speed, endurance, whatever, is no longer a "standard human" and must not be allowed to compete with "standard humans". Hey, we'd better not allow any competition between those Caucasian types and those non-Caucasian types, because of the unfair genetic advantage. Better make sure that no basketball player is taller than 5' 10". Sumo wrestlers mustn't weight more than 12 stone. Chess players must be certified to have an IQ of exactly 100..." Yeah that's a good point! Survival of the fittest should be the rule. So if things continue the way they are, sports will be won by men and trans women. Women need to realise that men are just better at being women than women are. | |||
"What do you say to Caster Semenya, btw? Surely she should be a para athlete? She's essentialy born disabled, too high testosterone. If someone was born with 3 legs and could run at 30mph would they be allowed to compete with "standard" humans? According to this argument, any man who is an extra inch taller or has a genetic condition giving them increased strength, speed, endurance, whatever, is no longer a "standard human" and must not be allowed to compete with "standard humans". Hey, we'd better not allow any competition between those Caucasian types and those non-Caucasian types, because of the unfair genetic advantage. Better make sure that no basketball player is taller than 5' 10". Sumo wrestlers mustn't weight more than 12 stone. Chess players must be certified to have an IQ of exactly 100... Yeah that's a good point! Survival of the fittest should be the rule. So if things continue the way they are, sports will be won by men and trans women. Women need to realise that men are just better at being women than women are. "Which is why the existing system of dividing humans into just two categories, male and female, is no longer fit for purpose in not just sport but in many areas of life. Modern society is just more complex. I have no simple answers for these problems, but the assertion that "dick = forever male" and "vag = forever female" and "anything else = freak that shouldn't be allowed to exist" is ignorant and vile. | |||
"What do you say to Caster Semenya, btw? Surely she should be a para athlete? She's essentialy born disabled, too high testosterone. If someone was born with 3 legs and could run at 30mph would they be allowed to compete with "standard" humans?" A champion athlete and you say she is disabled?  | |||
"What do you say to Caster Semenya, btw? Surely she should be a para athlete? She's essentialy born disabled, too high testosterone. If someone was born with 3 legs and could run at 30mph would they be allowed to compete with "standard" humans? A champion athlete and you say she is disabled? "Yup. Too good. It's a disgrace that mere humans have to compete against someone with a natural ability. Clearly we should burn the aliens. (Nb. Sarcasm, for those who are unable to recognise such. No aliens were harmed in bringing you this broadcast, and the Polly Chromatic Network (tm) does not in any way endorse the harming of aliens. Those nasty trans people though, that's another matter...) | |||
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"What age does an adult professional sportsperson have to be? If, for example a male or female sportsperson has to be 16 before they turn professional, should a transgender person have to be fully transitioned into their new gender for 16 years before they're allowed to compete?" I assume it's from when they self identify is it? | |||
"What age does an adult professional sportsperson have to be? If, for example a male or female sportsperson has to be 16 before they turn professional, should a transgender person have to be fully transitioned into their new gender for 16 years before they're allowed to compete? I assume it's from when they self identify is it?" Is there a legal minimum age for them to be able to self identify? | |||
" God flipped a coin and bomb you were either male or female. And what do you say to Caster Semenya? Thank for ignoring the 2nd paragraph I wrote, just proves you don't have an answer because you know it's the truth My money’s on Serena Williams beating you at tennis." You do know that both the Williams sisters once thought they could compete and beat professional men in tennis, they played the 200th seed both of them lost back to back and didn't even get a point. I've never played tennis but I would beat them at football, basketball, rugby even table tennis. | |||
"they played the 200th seed both of them lost back to back and didn't even get a point" Not true. They both won games but lost the match. | |||
"What do you say to Caster Semenya, btw? Surely she should be a para athlete? She's essentialy born disabled, too high testosterone. If someone was born with 3 legs and could run at 30mph would they be allowed to compete with "standard" humans?" Disabled means not being able to do normal life Not run faster than women in normal life. Havent thought that through thoroughly have you. | |||
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"I never made it as a footballer ...but hey ...if I go and have my cock cut off And call myself a lady or it ...I can make a comeback in the woman's game ...where let's face it I will be great....is that ok and correct" Childish | |||
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"I never made it as a footballer ...but hey ...if I go and have my cock cut off And call myself a lady or it ...I can make a comeback in the woman's game ...where let's face it I will be great....is that ok and correct" You could but that wouldn't make it right morally. | |||
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"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. " I would say no. I would say that anyone who takes drugs or hormones of any type to maintain their body should be barred from competing with others who do not do the same. | |||
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"I never made it as a footballer ...but hey ...if I go and have my cock cut off And call myself a lady or it ...I can make a comeback in the woman's game ...where let's face it I will be great....is that ok and correct You could but that wouldn't make it right morally. " One of the problems with professional sport, morality has been driven out by profit. | |||
"Heck, if transgender women, or transgender men, want to compete in sports, then let them, at least it would make sports more interesting, and it would also give stupid and ignorant people something else to bitch and complain about, because isn't that what makes them happy anyway lol. They sure make it so easy for the rest of us to recognize them lol. Well, at least their good for a laugh or two !!" I for one have no issue with anyone competing or using anything to enhance performance. Just let those using drugs and hormones for whatever reason compete with others using drugs and hormones. | |||
"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. I would say no. I would say that anyone who takes drugs or hormones of any type to maintain their body should be barred from competing with others who do not do the same." I agree | |||
"Are you saying sport is about physicality, not gender?" . Not always but it's a massive part of some shorts. You wouldn't expect a bantam weight to get in and mix it around with say Joshua as it would be plain to see very unfair, so it divided into sex and size differences. Ethiopian runners despite being technically brilliant and training just as hard smash world records because they have a distinct natural advantage to marathon running. Lance Armstrong had natural advantages over the field, Serena Williams has natural advantages over the rest of the field, it's all slightly unfair but you have to divide it somehow. | |||
"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. " Trans or not if you believe yoire a female you should be able to compete with fellow females. Don't let society stop you from getting equality just cos you happen to be faster stronger etc you're a women go compete with other women. Same if you think you're a man. You don't have to look like a gender to feel like a gender so as long as u feel it you should be able to say I'm a male or a female. | |||
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"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. Trans or not if you believe yoire a female you should be able to compete with fellow females. Don't let society stop you from getting equality just cos you happen to be faster stronger etc you're a women go compete with other women. Same if you think you're a man. You don't have to look like a gender to feel like a gender so as long as u feel it you should be able to say I'm a male or a female. " This is the trouble. Confusion between gender, and physical sex. Sport is about physical performance, not how you "feel inside". | |||
"The guide lines are that, yes they are free to compete as long as they take medication that controls their hormones to acceptable levels. " If you've spent 25 years developing a Male body, just because you start inhibiting testosterone when you compete as the opposite sex, it's too late. The physical body has developed as male. | |||
"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. Trans or not if you believe yoire a female you should be able to compete with fellow females. Don't let society stop you from getting equality just cos you happen to be faster stronger etc you're a women go compete with other women. Same if you think you're a man. You don't have to look like a gender to feel like a gender so as long as u feel it you should be able to say I'm a male or a female. This is the trouble. Confusion between gender, and physical sex. Sport is about physical performance, not how you "feel inside". " Too late for that the world has evolved to now allow gender surgery in which 1 gender person can become another with hormones and surgery etc. So as far as I'm concerned if there's an all female sport and a person who feels female wants to do it why not. Same the other way too. | |||
"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. Trans or not if you believe yoire a female you should be able to compete with fellow females. Don't let society stop you from getting equality just cos you happen to be faster stronger etc you're a women go compete with other women. Same if you think you're a man. You don't have to look like a gender to feel like a gender so as long as u feel it you should be able to say I'm a male or a female. " . If being female is just a feeling then how do you define female?. | |||
"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. Trans or not if you believe yoire a female you should be able to compete with fellow females. Don't let society stop you from getting equality just cos you happen to be faster stronger etc you're a women go compete with other women. Same if you think you're a man. You don't have to look like a gender to feel like a gender so as long as u feel it you should be able to say I'm a male or a female. . If being female is just a feeling then how do you define female?." I'd guess a female will have been born with a vagina and ovaries ? A trans women would have been born with a penis and testes ? ? | |||
"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. Trans or not if you believe yoire a female you should be able to compete with fellow females. Don't let society stop you from getting equality just cos you happen to be faster stronger etc you're a women go compete with other women. Same if you think you're a man. You don't have to look like a gender to feel like a gender so as long as u feel it you should be able to say I'm a male or a female. . If being female is just a feeling then how do you define female?.I'd guess a female will have been born with a vagina and ovaries ? A trans women would have been born with a penis and testes ? ? " Sounds about right to me. | |||
"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. Trans or not if you believe yoire a female you should be able to compete with fellow females. Don't let society stop you from getting equality just cos you happen to be faster stronger etc you're a women go compete with other women. Same if you think you're a man. You don't have to look like a gender to feel like a gender so as long as u feel it you should be able to say I'm a male or a female. This is the trouble. Confusion between gender, and physical sex. Sport is about physical performance, not how you "feel inside". Too late for that the world has evolved to now allow gender surgery in which 1 gender person can become another with hormones and surgery etc. So as far as I'm concerned if there's an all female sport and a person who feels female wants to do it why not. Same the other way too. " Has "the world" evolved? Do you know the number of countries who recognise a male who feels female as female? | |||
"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. Trans or not if you believe yoire a female you should be able to compete with fellow females. Don't let society stop you from getting equality just cos you happen to be faster stronger etc you're a women go compete with other women. Same if you think you're a man. You don't have to look like a gender to feel like a gender so as long as u feel it you should be able to say I'm a male or a female. This is the trouble. Confusion between gender, and physical sex. Sport is about physical performance, not how you "feel inside". Too late for that the world has evolved to now allow gender surgery in which 1 gender person can become another with hormones and surgery etc. So as far as I'm concerned if there's an all female sport and a person who feels female wants to do it why not. Same the other way too. Has "the world" evolved? Do you know the number of countries who recognise a male who feels female as female?" I read the world as a figure of speech and not literally , I don't think any trans person believes it's a whole world acceptance , just like in this country and many others are free to have as many offspring as they choose or able , I can think of one country that only allow one child per couple , you may think I digress but in context the world has developed at different levels and belief systems , I try to live and let live | |||
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"No they shouldn't. One of the powerlifting feds allows trans athletes. A recent example:- Male lifter competes at given weight category and is one of the top lifters in the country. Transitions to female and now competes in the equivalent female class. Just won a comp last week by over 200kg to second place. 2nd place was formerly the best in UK for that class. Wrong on every level, 2nd place no matter how hard she trained would get anywhere near those numbers. " Proof of this please. | |||
"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. " Not really no. Biology dictates if you are male or female so if sports are separated by biological sex then it's simply allowing a male to compete against females. If all sports were mixed sex then obviously its irrelevant but they are not, and are not for a reason. | |||
"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. Not really no. Biology dictates if you are male or female so if sports are separated by biological sex then it's simply allowing a male to compete against females. If all sports were mixed sex then obviously its irrelevant but they are not, and are not for a reason. " Biology also dictates if you are born transgender or intersex too | |||
"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. Not really no. Biology dictates if you are male or female so if sports are separated by biological sex then it's simply allowing a male to compete against females. If all sports were mixed sex then obviously its irrelevant but they are not, and are not for a reason. Biology also dictates if you are born transgender or intersex too " Hmm, intersex yes if you are born with a mixture of male and female characteristics but babies are normally assigned a sex at birth Transgender is how the individual identifies themselves even if their biological sex is obviously different, so that in my view is psychological and not biological and a psychological mindset that you are the opposite to what you actually are shouldn't come into account in the topic of sports participation like this. | |||
"Biology also dictates if you are born transgender or intersex too " Simple (hypothetical) question: Does it take daily hormone treatment to maintain your body as it is? If the answer to that is yes then please tell me what the difference is between between you and any other sports cheat using hormones to enhance their body? Please do not take the above as an attack on the transgender or the gender fluid, it is not. My observation is purely limited to participation in competitive sport, nothing more. | |||
"I severely doubt that any transgender person has even been allowed to compete in higher level sports. However the exclusion goes further than that, i know of transwomen that have been denied from taking part in even local amateur knockabout teams. Someone who was even excluded from a lesbian and gay team!" Have you been living under a rock? | |||
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"If you read the psychological data on transgender or body dysmorphia as they call it, it's got little to do with biology and more to do with a brain imbalance of the complied statistics only 1% of trans have their penis and testicles removed, 70% are classified as men with a fetishism for women's clothing and 20% as gay men who have a problem excepting that. Of course it's entirely possible the experts could be wrong and they are indeed women trapped in a male body." Body dysmorphia is a completely different thing and not linked to gender issues necessarily. I think you may need to research gender dysphoria instead. And hormonal imbalance is biological and not psychological. | |||
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"If you read the psychological data on transgender or body dysmorphia as they call it, it's got little to do with biology and more to do with a brain imbalance of the complied statistics only 1% of trans have their penis and testicles removed, 70% are classified as men with a fetishism for women's clothing and 20% as gay men who have a problem excepting that. Of course it's entirely possible the experts could be wrong and they are indeed women trapped in a male body.this is just so I'll informed and utter tish " This is all a total red herring and has nothing to do with the asked question. I am still waiting for someone to tell me why some should be allowed to openly use body changing hormones to change their bodies and compete in competitive sport while others get banned for using benadryl to stop them sneezing? | |||
"If you read the psychological data on transgender or body dysmorphia as they call it, it's got little to do with biology and more to do with a brain imbalance of the complied statistics only 1% of trans have their penis and testicles removed, 70% are classified as men with a fetishism for women's clothing and 20% as gay men who have a problem excepting that. Of course it's entirely possible the experts could be wrong and they are indeed women trapped in a male body.this is just so I'll informed and utter tish This is all a total red herring and has nothing to do with the asked question. I am still waiting for someone to tell me why some should be allowed to openly use body changing hormones to change their bodies and compete in competitive sport while others get banned for using benadryl to stop them sneezing?" perhaps you should be asking the international sports council , you won't get your answer here , doubt there is anyone qualified to answer it on here | |||
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"I think it's a sad sign of the times, when the patriarchy can show women that men are better at being women than they are. " I'd share your sentiments if we lived in a patriarchal society but we don't in this country any longer | |||
"perhaps you should be asking the international sports council , you won't get your answer here , doubt there is anyone qualified to answer it on here " Really? No one here qualified to explain why Lance Armstrong was stripped of 7 Tour de France titles, prosecuted and banned from competitive cycling for life for taking testosterone (supplied by a doctor) but Danny (from accounts) should be able to openly take the same (or even more) testosterone and also be able to compete in the Tour de France because Danny used to be Tracy. Sounds to me like someone is trying to avoid attempting to justify the unjustifiable. | |||
"perhaps you should be asking the international sports council , you won't get your answer here , doubt there is anyone qualified to answer it on here Really? No one here qualified to explain why Lance Armstrong was stripped of 7 Tour de France titles, prosecuted and banned from competitive cycling for life for taking testosterone (supplied by a doctor) but Danny (from accounts) should be able to openly take the same (or even more) testosterone and also be able to compete in the Tour de France because Danny used to be Tracy. Sounds to me like someone is trying to avoid attempting to justify the unjustifiable. " Totally ludicrous. Taking any amount of hormone doesn't automatically make you a world class sportsperson. | |||
"perhaps you should be asking the international sports council , you won't get your answer here , doubt there is anyone qualified to answer it on here Really? No one here qualified to explain why Lance Armstrong was stripped of 7 Tour de France titles, prosecuted and banned from competitive cycling for life for taking testosterone (supplied by a doctor) but Danny (from accounts) should be able to openly take the same (or even more) testosterone and also be able to compete in the Tour de France because Danny used to be Tracy. Sounds to me like someone is trying to avoid attempting to justify the unjustifiable. Totally ludicrous. Taking any amount of hormone doesn't automatically make you a world class sportsperson. " I'm left wondering if the poster has actually approached the relevant authorities about his dismay on the matter ? | |||
"perhaps you should be asking the international sports council , you won't get your answer here , doubt there is anyone qualified to answer it on here Really? No one here qualified to explain why Lance Armstrong was stripped of 7 Tour de France titles, prosecuted and banned from competitive cycling for life for taking testosterone (supplied by a doctor) but Danny (from accounts) should be able to openly take the same (or even more) testosterone and also be able to compete in the Tour de France because Danny used to be Tracy. Sounds to me like someone is trying to avoid attempting to justify the unjustifiable. Totally ludicrous. Taking any amount of hormone doesn't automatically make you a world class sportsperson. I'm left wondering if the poster has actually approached the relevant authorities about his dismay on the matter ? "He doesn't need to. Clearly he is already an "expert" | |||
"perhaps you should be asking the international sports council , you won't get your answer here , doubt there is anyone qualified to answer it on here Really? No one here qualified to explain why Lance Armstrong was stripped of 7 Tour de France titles, prosecuted and banned from competitive cycling for life for taking testosterone (supplied by a doctor) but Danny (from accounts) should be able to openly take the same (or even more) testosterone and also be able to compete in the Tour de France because Danny used to be Tracy. Sounds to me like someone is trying to avoid attempting to justify the unjustifiable. Totally ludicrous. Taking any amount of hormone doesn't automatically make you a world class sportsperson. I'm left wondering if the poster has actually approached the relevant authorities about his dismay on the matter ?
He doesn't need to. Clearly he is already an "expert" "ha yes there's a good few of those on here isn't there Lisa  | |||
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"I don't need to be an expert to know that rules have to apply equally to all. I also don't have to be an expert to know there are always those who demand the right to be treated differently because they are 'special'. I for one have no time for such self aggrandisement or those that jump on said bandwagons because they see an opportunity to gain an unwarranted advantage." maybe you ought to be an adjudicator ? | |||
"maybe you ought to be an adjudicator ? " What is there to adjudicate? Either a substance is banned or it's not. A person either uses it or they don't. Rules is rules, once you start entertaining any form of exceptionalism you may as well rip up the rules. I will say this again, I have no problem with anyone using anything to be or go bigger, better, faster, stronger, longer or higher in aspect of life. Just that when it comes to comparisons be it in competition or anywhere else like is compared and competes with like. | |||
"If you read the psychological data on transgender or body dysmorphia as they call it, it's got little to do with biology and more to do with a brain imbalance of the complied statistics only 1% of trans have their penis and testicles removed, 70% are classified as men with a fetishism for women's clothing and 20% as gay men who have a problem excepting that. Of course it's entirely possible the experts could be wrong and they are indeed women trapped in a male body. Body dysmorphia is a completely different thing and not linked to gender issues necessarily. I think you may need to research gender dysphoria instead. And hormonal imbalance is biological and not psychological. " Hormonal imbalance yes can be classed as biological which in turn causes psychological shifts of the mind. | |||
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"But for the topic of sports I really don't give a damn but I fully understand and agree with the view that if you're born a "normal" boy with a willy etc you are a boy and will be for your entire lifetime. Chopping off your anatomy doesn't change it in my view but I also fully know not everyone will agree with me "I take it you've never met a fully transitioned M2F? | |||
"But for the topic of sports I really don't give a damn but I fully understand and agree with the view that if you're born a "normal" boy with a willy etc you are a boy and will be for your entire lifetime. Chopping off your anatomy doesn't change it in my view but I also fully know not everyone will agree with me
I take it you've never met a fully transitioned M2F? "Probably has met a fully transitioned MTF, at least in passing somewhere. But they didn't see it necessary to explain their full medical history to someone that didn't need to know. For guidance, here's some tips on how to unerringly recognise transwomen: 1. This is no way to unerringly recognise a transwoman. 2. Um, that's it really. Any check that would detect 100% of transwomen (up to and including genetic testing) will give a false indication for some number of ciswomen. Any check that would recognise 100% of ciswomen correctly, will give a false indication for some number of transwomen. Eg. Toilet policing? In redneck states of the US where this happens, it is overwhelmingly ciswomen of more-masculine appearance that are the ones victimised. Protecting women by passing anti-trans legislation, which disconveniences and harms... mainly women. | |||
"But for the topic of sports I really don't give a damn but I fully understand and agree with the view that if you're born a "normal" boy with a willy etc you are a boy and will be for your entire lifetime. Chopping off your anatomy doesn't change it in my view but I also fully know not everyone will agree with me
I take it you've never met a fully transitioned M2F? "I really don't see the relevance to be honest | |||
"But for the topic of sports I really don't give a damn but I fully understand and agree with the view that if you're born a "normal" boy with a willy etc you are a boy and will be for your entire lifetime. Chopping off your anatomy doesn't change it in my view but I also fully know not everyone will agree with me
I take it you've never met a fully transitioned M2F?
I really don't see the relevance to be honest "If you had you wouldn't display such ignorance. And I don't mean that in a rude way. It's not all about "Chopping off your anatomy" | |||
"But for the topic of sports I really don't give a damn but I fully understand and agree with the view that if you're born a "normal" boy with a willy etc you are a boy and will be for your entire lifetime. Chopping off your anatomy doesn't change it in my view but I also fully know not everyone will agree with me
I take it you've never met a fully transitioned M2F?
I really don't see the relevance to be honest
If you had you wouldn't display such ignorance. And I don't mean that in a rude way. It's not all about "Chopping off your anatomy" "I'm only looking at this through the OP's question, as I said I know people will disagree with me and others won't. It's all good | |||
"But for the topic of sports I really don't give a damn but I fully understand and agree with the view that if you're born a "normal" boy with a willy etc you are a boy and will be for your entire lifetime. Chopping off your anatomy doesn't change it in my view but I also fully know not everyone will agree with me
I take it you've never met a fully transitioned M2F?
I really don't see the relevance to be honest
If you had you wouldn't display such ignorance. And I don't mean that in a rude way. It's not all about "Chopping off your anatomy"
I'm only looking at this through the OP's question, as I said I know people will disagree with me and others won't.
It's all good " | |||
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"I totally agree with this especially because there's men purposely identifying and trans women to win competition and even breaking records this madness needs to stop. Imagine you have a daughter that's trained hard all her life to get beaten by a man in a skirt come on has some sense people " Who? Who are these men who are identifying as women solely and specifically with the intention of winning sports competitions? Find me one. | |||
"I totally agree with this especially because there's men purposely identifying and trans women to win competition and even breaking records this madness needs to stop. Imagine you have a daughter that's trained hard all her life to get beaten by a man in a skirt come on has some sense people Who? Who are these men who are identifying as women solely and specifically with the intention of winning sports competitions? Find me one. " Would you actually expect any of them to admit it if true?! Given the high prize money in some sports though, it's a potential future reality. As a biologically born man, and happy to be that way, I'm content to step back from this one and watch with glee as the real women and fake women screech this one out | |||
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" Same person who asked me what race i wanted to be. Is there such a thing? One species, one skin. " | |||
"Caster Semenya is the lady from South Africa. She won, then lost, then re-won titles. Because her testosterone was too high. Semenya is xy 46 ( DSD) A condition which means she has female & male genitalia. But where 1 is suppressed by doctors & prescribed treatments. As the silver & bronze medal winners were also xy 46 , there is a huge debate on muscle memory. Xy 46 will develop bigger hearts bigger muscle capacity etc while still being women with massively underdeveloped gonads & male genitalia Yes, nothing in life is ever black and white. It upsets those unable to think in more than a binary way." | |||
" Same person who asked me what race i wanted to be. Is there such a thing? One species, one skin. "The Human Race. That's the only race I am in. | |||
"I totally agree with this especially because there's men purposely identifying and trans women to win competition and even breaking records this madness needs to stop. Imagine you have a daughter that's trained hard all her life to get beaten by a man in a skirt come on has some sense people Who? Who are these men who are identifying as women solely and specifically with the intention of winning sports competitions? Find me one. Would you actually expect any of them to admit it if true?! Given the high prize money in some sports though, it's a potential future reality. As a biologically born man, and happy to be that way, I'm content to step back from this one and watch with glee as the real women and fake women screech this one out "Of course it's not true. It's just utter bollocks spouted by arsewiping papers like the mirror, the mail and the sun. Show me one male athlete that, in order to win a comparatively small sum of money, is going to do the following: 1. Make a public announcement to their family, friends, employers, the world at large, that they are transgender and wish to be forever afterwards treated as female. 2. Make legal declarations changing to a female name for passport, driving licence, bank accounts, house ownership, every single official purpose. 3. Spend minimum two years living as a female, dressing as a female, working as a female, while not even yet having been seen by gender specialist doctors. Getting on the waiting list can take a year, then the waiting period before first consultation is now over a year. 4. When finally getting a consultation, having to satisfy doctors and psychologists that they are serious. Having to divulge the most private details of their personal life and sexual activites. Being denied any chance of treatment if those doctors have the slightest doubt about their honesty. 5. Start taking hormone treatments that will destroy their sexual desire and kill their sperm producing cells. After three months of hormones they will never have another erection, never be able to have a child. 6. Have massive intrusive surgery to face in order to appear more female, including having pieces sawed out of jawbone, nose broken, forehead bones shaved down. Oh, and the way that the facial skin has to be peeled off in order to get to those bones, will mean severing of some facial nerves and a permanent loss of sensation in parts of the face. This will then take 4 to 6 months for all bruising to disappear, and up to 2 years for all swelling to go down and face to settle into new shape. 7. Have expensive hair removal sessions for over a year. This will include laser treatment and/or electrolyis on the face. For anyone with blond hair or dark skin, laser treatment will be ineffective and electrolyis will be needed - painful and slow. But apart from the face, there will be multiple sessions of electrolysis to remove hairs from scrotum and penis shaft - this is not cosmetic but a matter of need before the surgery to follow. The hair removal will hurt so much that the athlete will be having difficulty walking for a week after each session, never mind running. 8. Finally get to the stage of gender confirmation surgery, three to five years after first public declaration of being transgender. The surgery will consist of removing the testicles and discarding them, while preserving the skin of the scrotum. Carefully removing the glans of the penis keeping it attached to blood vessels and nerves, peeling the skin from the shaft, removing the internal erectile tissue of the penis. Then making an incision between the legs, opening up a passageway, remaking the skin of the penis and scrotum into a tube that can be turned inside out and pushed up into the abdomen to form a vagina. The nerve bundles, glans and some of the erectile tissue will be used to sculpt an approximation to vaginal lips and clitoris. Unfortunately there is a good chance of nerve damage such that sexual sensation may be reduced or lost completely. 9. Lie in bed for several weeks while primary healing takes place. Then only be able to walk with discomfort for several months. Meanwhile there is massive muscle wasting in legs and other parts of the body, because of being unable to carry out any exercise. 10. Have to perform daily medical procedures to prevent the new vagina from from just shrinking away and the entrance healing up. This basically involves having to insert a series of increasing sized dildos, for periods up to several hours each day, to stretch the vagina. This process is not sexually enjoyable, in fact in the early weeks and months can be extremely painful. 11. For the rest of their life have to take regular hormone treatments. This is not just to help promote development of female secondary sexual characteristics, but is in fact a matter of keeping alive - remember that the testicles were removed, there is now zero natural sex hormones in the body, and if the female hormone treatments are stopped there are many life threatening complications. 12. Expect a reduced lifetime, with higher than normal chance of getting various forms of cancer. Expect to require regular check ups for both breast cancer and prostate cancer. Expect to have to explain at public desks in hospitals and doctors surgeries that yes they are a woman but yes they do need checking for male specific disorders. 13. I could go on, but i hope that's enough for even the most stupid person to realise that NOBODY goes through gender transition just for the sake of trying to gain a little bit of competitive advantage in sports. It literally does not happen and never will happen. PS. For all those men crossing their legs and squirming at the description of the penis being skinned - if you browse YouTube you will easily be able to find videos of the full operation, i am not going to give links, look for them yourselves. Watch that, then come back to me and say honestly that anybody would go through it just to get some poxy gold medal. | |||
"I totally agree with this especially because there's men purposely identifying and trans women to win competition and even breaking records this madness needs to stop. Imagine you have a daughter that's trained hard all her life to get beaten by a man in a skirt come on has some sense people Who? Who are these men who are identifying as women solely and specifically with the intention of winning sports competitions? Find me one. Would you actually expect any of them to admit it if true?! Given the high prize money in some sports though, it's a potential future reality. As a biologically born man, and happy to be that way, I'm content to step back from this one and watch with glee as the real women and fake women screech this one out
Of course it's not true. It's just utter bollocks spouted by arsewiping papers like the mirror, the mail and the sun.
Show me one male athlete that, in order to win a comparatively small sum of money, is going to do the following:
1. Make a public announcement to their family, friends, employers, the world at large, that they are transgender and wish to be forever afterwards treated as female.
2. Make legal declarations changing to a female name for passport, driving licence, bank accounts, house ownership, every single official purpose.
3. Spend minimum two years living as a female, dressing as a female, working as a female, while not even yet having been seen by gender specialist doctors. Getting on the waiting list can take a year, then the waiting period before first consultation is now over a year.
4. When finally getting a consultation, having to satisfy doctors and psychologists that they are serious. Having to divulge the most private details of their personal life and sexual activites. Being denied any chance of treatment if those doctors have the slightest doubt about their honesty.
5. Start taking hormone treatments that will destroy their sexual desire and kill their sperm producing cells. After three months of hormones they will never have another erection, never be able to have a child.
6. Have massive intrusive surgery to face in order to appear more female, including having pieces sawed out of jawbone, nose broken, forehead bones shaved down. Oh, and the way that the facial skin has to be peeled off in order to get to those bones, will mean severing of some facial nerves and a permanent loss of sensation in parts of the face. This will then take 4 to 6 months for all bruising to disappear, and up to 2 years for all swelling to go down and face to settle into new shape.
7. Have expensive hair removal sessions for over a year. This will include laser treatment and/or electrolyis on the face. For anyone with blond hair or dark skin, laser treatment will be ineffective and electrolyis will be needed - painful and slow.
But apart from the face, there will be multiple sessions of electrolysis to remove hairs from scrotum and penis shaft - this is not cosmetic but a matter of need before the surgery to follow. The hair removal will hurt so much that the athlete will be having difficulty walking for a week after each session, never mind running.
8. Finally get to the stage of gender confirmation surgery, three to five years after first public declaration of being transgender. The surgery will consist of removing the testicles and discarding them, while preserving the skin of the scrotum. Carefully removing the glans of the penis keeping it attached to blood vessels and nerves, peeling the skin from the shaft, removing the internal erectile tissue of the penis. Then making an incision between the legs, opening up a passageway, remaking the skin of the penis and scrotum into a tube that can be turned inside out and pushed up into the abdomen to form a vagina. The nerve bundles, glans and some of the erectile tissue will be used to sculpt an approximation to vaginal lips and clitoris. Unfortunately there is a good chance of nerve damage such that sexual sensation may be reduced or lost completely.
9. Lie in bed for several weeks while primary healing takes place. Then only be able to walk with discomfort for several months. Meanwhile there is massive muscle wasting in legs and other parts of the body, because of being unable to carry out any exercise.
10. Have to perform daily medical procedures to prevent the new vagina from from just shrinking away and the entrance healing up. This basically involves having to insert a series of increasing sized dildos, for periods up to several hours each day, to stretch the vagina. This process is not sexually enjoyable, in fact in the early weeks and months can be extremely painful.
11. For the rest of their life have to take regular hormone treatments. This is not just to help promote development of female secondary sexual characteristics, but is in fact a matter of keeping alive - remember that the testicles were removed, there is now zero natural sex hormones in the body, and if the female hormone treatments are stopped there are many life threatening complications.
12. Expect a reduced lifetime, with higher than normal chance of getting various forms of cancer. Expect to require regular check ups for both breast cancer and prostate cancer. Expect to have to explain at public desks in hospitals and doctors surgeries that yes they are a woman but yes they do need checking for male specific disorders.
13. I could go on, but i hope that's enough for even the most stupid person to realise that NOBODY goes through gender transition just for the sake of trying to gain a little bit of competitive advantage in sports.
It literally does not happen and never will happen.
PS. For all those men crossing their legs and squirming at the description of the penis being skinned - if you browse YouTube you will easily be able to find videos of the full operation, i am not going to give links, look for them yourselves. Watch that, then come back to me and say honestly that anybody would go through it just to get some poxy gold medal." I have 4 friends that have gone through this process and others in various stages of transition right now. It's so sad that many people on this thread just will not understand, or accept, the points you've made.
Nor does it make them gold medal winning super athletes. Add to the above all of the effort, hard work, dedication and skill that entails becoming a world class sportsperson. While also going through the emotional, psychological and physiological aspects of transition.
This debate is complex, it's a subject I have followed in great interest outside of this thread, listened to arguments from real experts on both sides and despair of people on here who think a man "having his cock chopped off" somehow makes them superhuman.
Thank you for taking the time to post this message. | |||
"I totally agree with this especially because there's men purposely identifying and trans women to win competition and even breaking records this madness needs to stop. Imagine you have a daughter that's trained hard all her life to get beaten by a man in a skirt come on has some sense people Who? Who are these men who are identifying as women solely and specifically with the intention of winning sports competitions? Find me one. Would you actually expect any of them to admit it if true?! Given the high prize money in some sports though, it's a potential future reality. As a biologically born man, and happy to be that way, I'm content to step back from this one and watch with glee as the real women and fake women screech this one out
Of course it's not true. It's just utter bollocks spouted by arsewiping papers like the mirror, the mail and the sun.
Show me one male athlete that, in order to win a comparatively small sum of money, is going to do the following:
1. Make a public announcement to their family, friends, employers, the world at large, that they are transgender and wish to be forever afterwards treated as female.
2. Make legal declarations changing to a female name for passport, driving licence, bank accounts, house ownership, every single official purpose.
3. Spend minimum two years living as a female, dressing as a female, working as a female, while not even yet having been seen by gender specialist doctors. Getting on the waiting list can take a year, then the waiting period before first consultation is now over a year.
4. When finally getting a consultation, having to satisfy doctors and psychologists that they are serious. Having to divulge the most private details of their personal life and sexual activites. Being denied any chance of treatment if those doctors have the slightest doubt about their honesty.
5. Start taking hormone treatments that will destroy their sexual desire and kill their sperm producing cells. After three months of hormones they will never have another erection, never be able to have a child.
6. Have massive intrusive surgery to face in order to appear more female, including having pieces sawed out of jawbone, nose broken, forehead bones shaved down. Oh, and the way that the facial skin has to be peeled off in order to get to those bones, will mean severing of some facial nerves and a permanent loss of sensation in parts of the face. This will then take 4 to 6 months for all bruising to disappear, and up to 2 years for all swelling to go down and face to settle into new shape.
7. Have expensive hair removal sessions for over a year. This will include laser treatment and/or electrolyis on the face. For anyone with blond hair or dark skin, laser treatment will be ineffective and electrolyis will be needed - painful and slow.
But apart from the face, there will be multiple sessions of electrolysis to remove hairs from scrotum and penis shaft - this is not cosmetic but a matter of need before the surgery to follow. The hair removal will hurt so much that the athlete will be having difficulty walking for a week after each session, never mind running.
8. Finally get to the stage of gender confirmation surgery, three to five years after first public declaration of being transgender. The surgery will consist of removing the testicles and discarding them, while preserving the skin of the scrotum. Carefully removing the glans of the penis keeping it attached to blood vessels and nerves, peeling the skin from the shaft, removing the internal erectile tissue of the penis. Then making an incision between the legs, opening up a passageway, remaking the skin of the penis and scrotum into a tube that can be turned inside out and pushed up into the abdomen to form a vagina. The nerve bundles, glans and some of the erectile tissue will be used to sculpt an approximation to vaginal lips and clitoris. Unfortunately there is a good chance of nerve damage such that sexual sensation may be reduced or lost completely.
9. Lie in bed for several weeks while primary healing takes place. Then only be able to walk with discomfort for several months. Meanwhile there is massive muscle wasting in legs and other parts of the body, because of being unable to carry out any exercise.
10. Have to perform daily medical procedures to prevent the new vagina from from just shrinking away and the entrance healing up. This basically involves having to insert a series of increasing sized dildos, for periods up to several hours each day, to stretch the vagina. This process is not sexually enjoyable, in fact in the early weeks and months can be extremely painful.
11. For the rest of their life have to take regular hormone treatments. This is not just to help promote development of female secondary sexual characteristics, but is in fact a matter of keeping alive - remember that the testicles were removed, there is now zero natural sex hormones in the body, and if the female hormone treatments are stopped there are many life threatening complications.
12. Expect a reduced lifetime, with higher than normal chance of getting various forms of cancer. Expect to require regular check ups for both breast cancer and prostate cancer. Expect to have to explain at public desks in hospitals and doctors surgeries that yes they are a woman but yes they do need checking for male specific disorders.
13. I could go on, but i hope that's enough for even the most stupid person to realise that NOBODY goes through gender transition just for the sake of trying to gain a little bit of competitive advantage in sports.
It literally does not happen and never will happen.
PS. For all those men crossing their legs and squirming at the description of the penis being skinned - if you browse YouTube you will easily be able to find videos of the full operation, i am not going to give links, look for them yourselves. Watch that, then come back to me and say honestly that anybody would go through it just to get some poxy gold medal." well said Polly ! | |||
"Should trans people male to female be able to compete within female sports where speed and strength are an advantage. What are your thought's really interesting subject. " Surely it depends on the sport? Do women really have a disadvantage in darts? Or snooker? In something like basketball, a man who is 7 feet tall has a natural advantage over people who are half a foot shorter. This isn't anywhere near as black and white as some make it out to be. When you have people who were born with female genitals tested to make sure they are female, I think that pretty much sums it up. | |||
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"Important, too, to keep a sense of perspective. The proportion of the population who make the transition is tiny. Within that tiny proportion, the number of people aiming to become elite athletes is vanishingly small. " . Until it gets widely accepted then any Tom Harry with a dick can run as a woman. Also don't you think it's slightly funny how this tiny weeny teeny percentage of "transitioned women" dominate over the 3.2 billion selection pool of women women  | |||
