FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Defence cuts... Right or Wrong? Good? Bad? Neccessary?
Defence cuts... Right or Wrong? Good? Bad? Neccessary?
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"before we consider what ordanance we need in these modern times its worth looking back in history to consider what needs we had in the past , and how wars were fought we had the blanket bombing of coventry , london , and in germany we had the same in dresden etc also a few nuclear bombs were droped in japan as far as tactics go , if the french resistance blew up a railway line , the germans lined up 100 villiagers and shot them , or sent them off to concentration camps there was some real heavy battles etc , like the siege of stalingrad it dont work like that anymore take the pirates of somalia , there a big problem to the UK and USA we got trident , and the US have got a bigger trident between us there umpteen aircraft carriers , landing craft , jet fighters , tanks , you name it what can we do to stop the pirates ? fuck all at the moment we are at war in afghanistan , what is our objective there ? it seems we are there to either stop the terrorist training camps , even though they can move them , or start others in another country at the drop of a hat ( they can do that easier than i can move house ) and / or introduce democracy , build new schools , infastructure etc so what ordanance do the soldiers need there ? perhaps a cheque book and a t shirt with TWAT written on the back in my opinion all these big toys are a fucking joke , a total waste of money the only thing they are any good for is the future king to sit behind the steering wheel and show what a big man he is even though if anything happened it would be too dangerous for him to go anywhere near any action as he would shit his pants apart from that why should we be concerned about defending the "nation" its not our nation its the queens nation if there was a serrious threat of being invaded i think i would sell up and go live in somewhere like argentina let the queen defend her own fecking nation like king harold tried , it wasnt too dangerous for him to be up front near the action was it ?" My God why are you even in this Country ? why do you hate it so much ? I wish you cared a fraction for our servicemen facing bigger dangers from lack of equipment than you do for what the Royals do. For your information British Servicemen do not fight for Royalty, no matter what the Royals may think, they fight so that you and I can sleep safely in thier beds, they fight to cut down the threat of terrorism which would be an everyday occurence if it was not for what they are willing to do to prevent it. I am not saying the war in Iraq or Afghanistan is right or wrong, I am saying have some respect for those that protect you, to do that they need our support and they need the correct equipment. If the government sorted out the procurement system they would not only have enough money to do what the MOD want but they would have enough to do it with the cuts still applied. If we want independance from the USA then we need a strong military ability of our own. | |||
"Ok, let's a good old 'debate' on what's happening with our nation's defences. This will probably get heated but let's keep the insults to a minimum eh? 1) An aircraft carrier without any aircraft on it. Pointless? 2) Two new aircraft ordered that won't have any aircraft on them for a few years either. Even more pointless? 3) Deals with arms manufacturers that are too expensive to break. Tell 'em to go fuck, we ain't got enough dosh, and if they want further deals in the future then play ball now? 4) Not enough soldiers as it is and already spread too thin on the ground. Can we afford to lose more troops? 5) Get out of Afghanistan and save a fuck load of money and keep all the ships, planes and personnel we have at the moment? 6) 7 new Attack-class nuke subs. Do we really need 7 more when the Yanks have got blimmin' loads of 'em? ~ " this makes sense, we should stick to a "defence" budget and stick to just that, what we need to "defend" our country. | |||
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"leaving us without a working aircraft carrier for a decade is madness" You're right, it is total madness but the reasoning behind it that we forego our sea-based aircraft capability now in order to re-establish it by the end of the decade. If we fail so make the cutbacks we have to make now we will go bankrupt as a country and then all our ships and carriers etc will sit in port rusting. Brown wanted to keep on spending as he knew damned well how much he had fucked things up and by pretending we still had lots of money and a credit line worth something he was hoping nobody would notice just how skint we were/are. A Tory win was always going to expose Labour's sheer lunacy on spending and that's what Brown desperately didn't want uncovered. So now we're left with a trimmed down Armed Forces as well as all the other cuts that must be made to get us back on an even keel in - hopefully - five to ten years (it will take longer than the four years Osbourne is predicting, that much is certain) | |||
"Prince William served for two and a half months in Afghanistan in the Household Cavalry, on the front line. He was withdrawn because Bild newspaper in Germany posted details of his wherabouts making the safety of him and the men he served with comprimised. He was clearly annoyed and upset at being withdrawn from Helmand so I fail to see how anyone could question his bravery simply because they themselves harbour an obvious deep hatred of the Royal Family. I have the deepest respect for anyone who serves in Afghanistan, they don't need to prove themselves to people who sit at home and criticise them." Hear! Hear! Absolutely. | |||
"before we consider what ordanance we need in these modern times its worth looking back in history to consider what needs we had in the past , and how wars were fought we had the blanket bombing of coventry , london , and in germany we had the same in dresden etc also a few nuclear bombs were droped in japan as far as tactics go , if the french resistance blew up a railway line , the germans lined up 100 villiagers and shot them , or sent them off to concentration camps there was some real heavy battles etc , like the siege of stalingrad it dont work like that anymore take the pirates of somalia , there a big problem to the UK and USA we got trident , and the US have got a bigger trident between us there umpteen aircraft carriers , landing craft , jet fighters , tanks , you name it what can we do to stop the pirates ? fuck all at the moment we are at war in afghanistan , what is our objective there ? it seems we are there to either stop the terrorist training camps , even though they can move them , or start others in another country at the drop of a hat ( they can do that easier than i can move house ) and / or introduce democracy , build new schools , infastructure etc so what ordanance do the soldiers need there ? perhaps a cheque book and a t shirt with TWAT written on the back in my opinion all these big toys are a fucking joke , a total waste of money the only thing they are any good for is the future king to sit behind the steering wheel and show what a big man he is even though if anything happened it would be too dangerous for him to go anywhere near any action as he would shit his pants apart from that why should we be concerned about defending the "nation" its not our nation its the queens nation if there was a serrious threat of being invaded i think i would sell up and go live in somewhere like argentina let the queen defend her own fecking nation like king harold tried , it wasnt too dangerous for him to be up front near the action was it ? My God why are you even in this Country ? why do you hate it so much ? I wish you cared a fraction for our servicemen facing bigger dangers from lack of equipment than you do for what the Royals do. For your information British Servicemen do not fight for Royalty, no matter what the Royals may think, they fight so that you and I can sleep safely in thier beds, they fight to cut down the threat of terrorism which would be an everyday occurence if it was not for what they are willing to do to prevent it. I am not saying the war in Iraq or Afghanistan is right or wrong, I am saying have some respect for those that protect you, to do that they need our support and they need the correct equipment. If the government sorted out the procurement system they would not only have enough money to do what the MOD want but they would have enough to do it with the cuts still applied. If we want independance from the USA then we need a strong military ability of our own." soldiers DO fight for royalty , this is what they sign up for British Army - Oath of Allegiance: Encyclopedia II - British Army - Oath of Allegiance All soldiers must take the Oath of Allegiance on joining the Army. Those who believe in God use the following words: I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me. [2] Others replace the words "swear by Almighty God" with ... it doesnt mention anything about the man in the street i have every respect for soldiers fighting abroad , but the tactics they are ordered to use make them fit for nowt else but target practice ie twats | |||
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"Prince William served for two and a half months in Afghanistan in the Household Cavalry, on the front line. He was withdrawn because Bild newspaper in Germany posted details of his wherabouts making the safety of him and the men he served with comprimised. He was clearly annoyed and upset at being withdrawn from Helmand so I fail to see how anyone could question his bravery simply because they themselves harbour an obvious deep hatred of the Royal Family. I have the deepest respect for anyone who serves in Afghanistan, they don't need to prove themselves to people who sit at home and criticise them." Thought it was Harry not William. | |||
"Prince William served for two and a half months in Afghanistan in the Household Cavalry, on the front line. He was withdrawn because Bild newspaper in Germany posted details of his wherabouts making the safety of him and the men he served with comprimised. He was clearly annoyed and upset at being withdrawn from Helmand so I fail to see how anyone could question his bravery simply because they themselves harbour an obvious deep hatred of the Royal Family. I have the deepest respect for anyone who serves in Afghanistan, they don't need to prove themselves to people who sit at home and criticise them. Thought it was Harry not William." Sorry Typo by me....it was Harry | |||
"Ok, let's a good old 'debate' on what's happening with our nation's defences. This will probably get heated but let's keep the insults to a minimum eh? 1) An aircraft carrier without any aircraft on it. Pointless? 2) Two new aircraft ordered that won't have any aircraft on them for a few years either. Even more pointless? 3) Deals with arms manufacturers that are too expensive to break. Tell 'em to go fuck, we ain't got enough dosh, and if they want further deals in the future then play ball now? 4) Not enough soldiers as it is and already spread too thin on the ground. Can we afford to lose more troops? 5) Get out of Afghanistan and save a fuck load of money and keep all the ships, planes and personnel we have at the moment? 6) 7 new Attack-class nuke subs. Do we really need 7 more when the Yanks have got blimmin' loads of 'em? ~ " If people could only work things out rationally we wouldn't need armed forces anywhere near as large as we have and maybe not at all. We have to have cuts the figures show that but it should be in all areas including the armed forces. | |||
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"Its amazing that they are making such savage cuts. Before they won the election they made many promises, seems that none of them are going to be kept now. I saw a discussion on BBC2 back in May and all of the commentators said that whichever of the parties you voted for, red or blue, either of the two very different policies would get the country back on track by 2014/15. I reckin we would have been better letting labour try and spend us out of this mess rather than the tories crucifying everything and anyone in pursuit of saving money." Here's an exercise for you: Take your annual household income and work out how much you spend, on what, and how much you can do without. Include all the payments to credit cards etc in your outgoings. Is your income higher than your outgoings? Yes? Good for you. You're one of the few. Now, you have unlimited borrowing facilities from the bank, but only if you continue to make the minimum payment each month, which increases the more you borrow. The tipping point comes when you cannot meet the minimum monthly payment AND the bank says 'no more borrowing'. Where does that leave you? You outgoings are higher than your income and your debts are spiralling out of control with higher interest rates because you've defaulted. It's not difficult to see that spoend, spend, spend leads to debt, debt, and more debt if you can't afford to spend, spend, spend in the first place. | |||
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"Will they be selling off all the stuff they are scrapping on ebay?" Have a look at mod-sales.com for loads of hardly used kit for sale! | |||
" if there was a serrious threat of being invaded i think i would sell up and go live in somewhere like argentina let the queen defend her own fecking nation like king harold tried , it wasnt too dangerous for him to be up front near the action was it ?" I'm not going to give the space of repeating everything you wrote above this...however....the reason there is no real threat against this country, is because we have a defence in place that works to deter that from happening. tax the stupid | |||
" the biggest, and to me, worrying loss, is the one in 6 deployable battalions that they intend to cut. We run the services with a float of - say 40%...this allows for recruitment, promotion and natural wastage...this will bumph that figure considerable. As we know we are already running on a negative capacity and we are indeed in theatre and our land forces are already incredibly stretched over there...i do concern how it is going to affect not just the numbers, but the moral. " This has come directly from the MoD's intranet site which is available freely, on the internet. It obviously doesn't say everything that we get to see at work, but it says enough about the deployable battalions. In order to meet this new structure the Army will: • reduce by around 7,000 to about 95,000 personnel by 2015, but with no changes to combat units involved in Afghanistan, and an assumption, for now, of a requirement of about 94,000 by 2020; • reduce by one the number of deployable brigades, as we restructure to five multi-role brigades; • significantly reduce our non-deployable regional administrative structure; and • rationalise our deployable headquarters by reducing the communications and logistics support to Headquarters ARRC and convert the second of our operational divisional headquarters to a force preparation role. | |||
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""i have every respect for soldiers fighting abroad , but the tactics they are ordered to use make them fit for nowt else but target practice ie twats" Simply by posting that comment alone you demonstrate that you obviously do not have respect for soldiers fighting abroad. If it wasn't for so called 'twats' you would be speaking German. By the way. Servicemen nowadays fight for their oppo's, that is, each other - their mates. In a just war such as WWII or perhaps the Falklands they fight for their oppo's and their country and countrymen. The Royal Family or the Government of the day do not warrant a second, or even first, thought." i have every respect for our soldiers it is from there own mouths ive heard them complain how they have been treated like prats i could type here reams and reams of instances that have caused them to say this the somme , 19000 dead in one day due to artilliary positioning blunder tripoli so on and so forth havent you ever heard the term "cannon foder" ? they even say they are treated like prats for the smallest of reasons like not being issued with a flak jacket to have the troops in afghanistan operating in the manner they are is ridiculous every man and his dog is giving sucre to the taliban the moment you turn your back , with no opurtunity of reprisal and what happens when they return after having there limbs blown off they get help from charitys like help the heroes , poppy appeal , and others they should be given all the help they need as a right , not from a flaming charity , that really is treating them like prats by the way , they swear allegience to the crown , and there superior officers mayby they should change that to "there mates" or "oppos" | |||
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"You should have said that in the first place then. Soldiers saying that they're 'treated like prats' is a mile away from you calling them 'twats. And I don't give a flying one who they swear allegiance to [but it's definitely not their 'superior officers] you won't find a single soldier, sailor or airman that will tell you he/she is fighting for the Queen or Royal Family." they might not tell you that , and they might not think that but what they say and think , and what is the facts are two different things The British Army is the land warfare branch of Her Majesty's Armed Forces in the United Kingdom and they swear allegiance TO HER mayby we should ask the government to change the name of the armed forces , and who it is that they actually swear allegiance to but i think i know what the answer to that one will be | |||
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"Servicemen and -women swear allegiance to the Queen as Head of State, not to her personally. The Head of State represents ALL the nation, all the people, so you are really swearing allegiance to them. It would be the same if we were a republic - the oath would have to be to the President, whether the holder of the post was President Thatcher or President Brown (god forbid!). If the Queen dropped dead tomorrow the armed forces wouldn't all have to swear another oath to King Charles. People might be confusing our oath with that taken in WW2 Germany. The German forcers swore allegiance to Hitler, as a person and not just as the head of state. That's one of the reasons he was unchallenged by his own side." This is all getting a bit tedious. I am fully aware of what the oath is and where 'officially' the allegiance and duties are ascribed having taken the very same oath. What I am saying is that the reality is very different. I agree with the comments made by Luton Couple reference funding but the more things change etc. This is the same scenario as 'The Troubles' in Northern Ireland. How much was creamed off from every pint, meal etc bought by ordinary people to support/fund 'The Cause'? | |||
"This is all getting a bit tedious. I am fully aware of what the oath is and where 'officially' the allegiance and duties are ascribed having taken the very same oath. What I am saying is that the reality is very different. I agree with the comments made by Luton Couple reference funding but the more things change etc. This is the same scenario as 'The Troubles' in Northern Ireland. How much was creamed off from every pint, meal etc bought by ordinary people to support/fund 'The Cause'? "I'm pretty sure the MI6's counter terrorism money moving electronic surveillance people know exactly what money is flowing from which place to where. Sometimes it's better the devil you know than the devil you don't. For example.. Afghanistan's main produce is poppies, which produces opium, which, when purified further, produces heroin. Rural farmer's are enganged in producing it like our farmer's produce wheat or corn. It is their main source of income and their fragile economy would be totally destroyed were we to eliminate that source of income overnight (ie burning the poppy fields), which in turn would drive them straight into the waiting arms of the Taliban who will reward them with nice new fields of poppies to grow in areas where we can't go. By leaving the siut as it is we restrict the Tsliban from turning the minds of the people over there thereby preventing them from ever gaining a real foothold in the country again. They in turn have a certain amount of funds arriving from the UK from muslim supporters over here but we know where that money has come from, how much and where it is being spent. Don't believe we don't know - we do. By driving the opium farmer's into the Taliban fold we will also drive all the revenue raised from it into Taliban coffers too, and then you'll see far more sophisticated weapons being used far more acurately against coalition forces trying to stabilise the country. Look beyond the sensationalist media representation of what's going on and see the real story of Afghanistan, it's people, it's problems, and it's financial infrastructure and you'll see we can't just go in and blitz the place. The Americans saw the results of that sort of folly in Vietnam. | |||
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Thinking about national security, does it really make sense to advertise that we have no planes for our carriers for 10 years?
Then to cap it all this week a 1 billion pound sub that can sit off the UK coast and track a ship leaving New York cannot see a sandbank when on the surface, not the UK's best week  | |||
"When will the political class realise that simply arming to fight the most recent war is a mistake? Things come out of the blue. If the UK wants to be taken seriously we need aircraft carriers we need strong armed forces. No-one saw the Falklands war coming. There was a lot of talk before the election that "front line services" would be protected well if the armed forces aren't in the front line what are? As for Trident- what's the common factor between all permanent memebers of the UN security council? strategic nuclear missile submarines- it's owning Strategic nuclear weapons that is the ticket to the top table -that lets us at least have a small say at the highest levels alongside the USA Russia China and France... Our armed services are bloody good they in some ways are paying the price for ( over the years) getting on with what they've been given making the best of things and getting through by guts and skill. Feel that poiliticans too often say " oh the generals/ admirals always whine it's a game they'll get on with it if push comes to shove" Eventually if this goes on the Uk is going to get humiliated by the 3rd or 4th rate country...." Like in Afghanistan 150yrs ago? When will we realise we are nothing more than a middle-ranking European power with delusions of grandeur? We are still believing our fading dreams of empire & haven't noticed the world moving around us. We cling to the coat-tails of another fading empire (the US) in order to legitimise our self-delusions. | |||
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"before we consider what ordanance we need in these modern times its worth looking back in history to consider what needs we had in the past , and how wars were fought we had the blanket bombing of coventry , london , and in germany we had the same in dresden etc also a few nuclear bombs were droped in japan as far as tactics go , if the french resistance blew up a railway line , the germans lined up 100 villiagers and shot them , or sent them off to concentration camps there was some real heavy battles etc , like the siege of stalingrad it dont work like that anymore take the pirates of somalia , there a big problem to the UK and USA we got trident , and the US have got a bigger trident between us there umpteen aircraft carriers , landing craft , jet fighters , tanks , you name it what can we do to stop the pirates ? fuck all at the moment we are at war in afghanistan , what is our objective there ? it seems we are there to either stop the terrorist training camps , even though they can move them , or start others in another country at the drop of a hat ( they can do that easier than i can move house ) and / or introduce democracy , build new schools , infastructure etc so what ordanance do the soldiers need there ? perhaps a cheque book and a t shirt with TWAT written on the back in my opinion all these big toys are a fucking joke , a total waste of money the only thing they are any good for is the future king to sit behind the steering wheel and show what a big man he is even though if anything happened it would be too dangerous for him to go anywhere near any action as he would shit his pants apart from that why should we be concerned about defending the "nation" its not our nation its the queens nation if there was a serrious threat of being invaded i think i would sell up and go live in somewhere like argentina let the queen defend her own fecking nation like king harold tried , it wasnt too dangerous for him to be up front near the action was it ?" You made some very good points...just wanted to add a few things if you dont mind...About a year ago I started researching the Somali pirates because I read an article that offered another perspective on the whole affair. According to Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy for Somalia confirmed to Al Jazeera the world body has "reliable information" that European and Asian companies are dumping toxic waste, including nuclear waste, off the Somali coastline. Allegations of the dumping of toxic waste, as well as illegal fishing, have circulated since the early 1990s. Nick Nuttall, a UNEP spokesman, told Al Jazeera that"Somalia has been used as a dumping ground for hazardous waste starting in the early 1990s, and continuing through the civil war there," he said. The war in Afghanistan is just another Iraq..ie bullshit! We were told by our governments that AlQeada (Binladen) was responsible for 9/11...therefore we must invade Afghanistan...If that was true...then fair enough, but according to Insider accounts published in the British, French and Indian media US officials threatened war against Afghanistan during the summer of 2001 and had troops already stationed on the Pakistani border days before 9/11 (research it for yourself) The reason we invaded Afghanistan was because of the pipeline that carries natural gas from neighbouring states through Afghanistan into the Caspian sea (worth approx $3 trillion) unfortunately...the Taliban said..."No" to the pipeline...so we invaded! We were lied to about Iraq's WMD's at a cost hundreds of British soldiers lives lost...and to date the cost of Iraqis who have died as a result of our bullshit invasion stands at over 1.1 million people....FOR WHAT? A FUCKING LIE..And what fucks me off even more is the fact that they are trying the same shit all over again with Iran...As that son of a thousand fathers once tried to say but failed..."Fool me once shame on you...Fool me twice...shame on me! I wonder if the people of this country will fall for it again...if we do...then Einstein was right when he said..." Only two things are infinite...The Universe...and Mans stupidity! Ps...If Binladen is responsible for 9/11...why hasnt the FBI accused him on their most wanted site? He,s on the site...but when the Guardian contacted the FBI in 2006 and asked why they hadnt accused Binladen of 9/11...they replied..."Because we have no evidence whatsoever to implicate Binladen in any way to 9/11" Bit strange dont you think"? | |||
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""No-one saw the Falklands war coming". Everyone saw the Falklands Conflict [it was never officially acknowledged as a 'war' - God knows what the difference is]coming. Argentina couldn't wait for us to withdraw HMS Endurance which although only a 'survey' vessel. The Tory Govt with Thatcher in charge at the time promptly carried out massive cuts of the Armed Forces. The Royal Navy in particular suffered severe cuts including HMS Endurance. This sent the signal to Argentina that we didn't give a flying one about the Falklands. No one, literally no one thought it was possible to send a task force big enough to retake the islands all that way undetected and unmolested by a well armed, well trained [the regulars were at least - we trained them!]resupplied, dug in enemy. The cuts meant that we had to commandeer cross channel ferries, cruise ships and civilian container vessels. How ironic that victory in Falklands saved Thatchers government when it was a conflict of their own making that cost more than 200 British servicemen their lives." A little misinformed but with the right feelings, HMS Endurance was to be withdrawn as a result of a decsion made by the previous Labour government. Margaret Thatcher was, before the Conflict responsible for bringing the Armed Forces salaries back up above the threshold designated for the poor, prior to that British Servicemen serving in Northern Ireland were recieving supplementary benefits from the DHSS because thier wages were below the official breadline deemed necessary to live on. It was also a Labour Party descision to scrap plans for the new aircraft carriers the Navy had asked for, instead they decided we did not need aircraft carriers of any size other than the Hermes/Invincible class which could carry Helicopters only. The Torries got lucky because without aircraft carriers the campaign could never have taken place, the luck was that the newly developed (from older designs) Sea Harrier proved to be excellent on the short take off landing strips of the small carriers even some of the Land Harriers were quickly fitted out to work from the carriers too. Margaret Thatcher also authorised the re-forming of the Parachute Brigade, at the start of the Falklands Campaign the previous Labour government had deemed the Brigade unnecessary and withdrawn the support elements, the UK had been left with 3 battalions of Para infantry, 7 Royal Horse Artillery airborne trained though mostly carrying out public duties with gun carriages, 9 Squadron Royal Engineers (para trained) and 205 (formerley 216) Para Signal Squadron, no other troops necessary to the operation of a Parachute Battalion were para trained. (paras get a £1 a day extra and are deemed expensive) When a ship is regiestered in Britain the law requires ship plans to be passed to the Admiltary for assesment as to how such ships can be used in times of War and to plan for any changes that would be necessary (the helicopter decks fitted to the QE2, Canberra, Uganda and other ships were already planned out ready for shipyards to install quickly as soon as the ships were built. As throughout our maritime history, merchant vessels are always utilized in times of war, more merchant ships were lost in the 2ndWW than any naval ship losses. Very few merchant ships were actually used by comparison with Naval ships including RFA ships a rare thing. Having transport ships like the ferries is an expense this country cannot afford in peacetime, better to spend that money on warships and utilize the Merchant ships as always. | |||
Stimulation in every way. | |||
"before we consider what ordanance we need in these modern times its worth looking back in history to consider what needs we had in the past , and how wars were fought we had the blanket bombing of coventry , london , and in germany we had the same in dresden etc also a few nuclear bombs were droped in japan as far as tactics go , if the french resistance blew up a railway line , the germans lined up 100 villiagers and shot them , or sent them off to concentration camps there was some real heavy battles etc , like the siege of stalingrad it dont work like that anymore take the pirates of somalia , there a big problem to the UK and USA we got trident , and the US have got a bigger trident between us there umpteen aircraft carriers , landing craft , jet fighters , tanks , you name it what can we do to stop the pirates ? fuck all at the moment we are at war in afghanistan , what is our objective there ? it seems we are there to either stop the terrorist training camps , even though they can move them , or start others in another country at the drop of a hat ( they can do that easier than i can move house ) and / or introduce democracy , build new schools , infastructure etc so what ordanance do the soldiers need there ? perhaps a cheque book and a t shirt with TWAT written on the back in my opinion all these big toys are a fucking joke , a total waste of money the only thing they are any good for is the future king to sit behind the steering wheel and show what a big man he is even though if anything happened it would be too dangerous for him to go anywhere near any action as he would shit his pants apart from that why should we be concerned about defending the "nation" its not our nation its the queens nation if there was a serrious threat of being invaded i think i would sell up and go live in somewhere like argentina let the queen defend her own fecking nation like king harold tried , it wasnt too dangerous for him to be up front near the action was it ? My God why are you even in this Country ? why do you hate it so much ? I wish you cared a fraction for our servicemen facing bigger dangers from lack of equipment than you do for what the Royals do. For your information British Servicemen do not fight for Royalty, no matter what the Royals may think, they fight so that you and I can sleep safely in thier beds, they fight to cut down the threat of terrorism which would be an everyday occurence if it was not for what they are willing to do to prevent it. I am not saying the war in Iraq or Afghanistan is right or wrong, I am saying have some respect for those that protect you, to do that they need our support and they need the correct equipment. If the government sorted out the procurement system they would not only have enough money to do what the MOD want but they would have enough to do it with the cuts still applied. If we want independance from the USA then we need a strong military ability of our own. soldiers DO fight for royalty , this is what they sign up for British Army - Oath of Allegiance: Encyclopedia II - British Army - Oath of Allegiance All soldiers must take the Oath of Allegiance on joining the Army. Those who believe in God use the following words: I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me. [2] Others replace the words "swear by Almighty God" with ... it doesnt mention anything about the man in the street i have every respect for soldiers fighting abroad , but the tactics they are ordered to use make them fit for nowt else but target practice ie twats" yes all of our armed forces swear allegiance to the monarch and are all proud to and proud to defend our country ....as for tactics you have obviously never served so how do you know what the tactics are .......twats after 12 years in the best regiment in the world and serving my queen and country (and yours) i take serious offence at that .....if you dislike this country or are so willing to sell it short with your fear of invasion then leave ..........now please don't wait..........there may be a war and you would be conscripted then where would you be !!!!!! | |||
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"before we consider what ordanance we need in these modern times its worth looking back in history to consider what needs we had in the past , and how wars were fought we had the blanket bombing of coventry , london , and in germany we had the same in dresden etc also a few nuclear bombs were droped in japan as far as tactics go , if the french resistance blew up a railway line , the germans lined up 100 villiagers and shot them , or sent them off to concentration camps there was some real heavy battles etc , like the siege of stalingrad it dont work like that anymore take the pirates of somalia , there a big problem to the UK and USA we got trident , and the US have got a bigger trident between us there umpteen aircraft carriers , landing craft , jet fighters , tanks , you name it what can we do to stop the pirates ? fuck all at the moment we are at war in afghanistan , what is our objective there ? it seems we are there to either stop the terrorist training camps , even though they can move them , or start others in another country at the drop of a hat ( they can do that easier than i can move house ) and / or introduce democracy , build new schools , infastructure etc so what ordanance do the soldiers need there ? perhaps a cheque book and a t shirt with TWAT written on the back in my opinion all these big toys are a fucking joke , a total waste of money the only thing they are any good for is the future king to sit behind the steering wheel and show what a big man he is even though if anything happened it would be too dangerous for him to go anywhere near any action as he would shit his pants apart from that why should we be concerned about defending the "nation" its not our nation its the queens nation if there was a serrious threat of being invaded i think i would sell up and go live in somewhere like argentina let the queen defend her own fecking nation like king harold tried , it wasnt too dangerous for him to be up front near the action was it ? My God why are you even in this Country ? why do you hate it so much ? I wish you cared a fraction for our servicemen facing bigger dangers from lack of equipment than you do for what the Royals do. For your information British Servicemen do not fight for Royalty, no matter what the Royals may think, they fight so that you and I can sleep safely in thier beds, they fight to cut down the threat of terrorism which would be an everyday occurence if it was not for what they are willing to do to prevent it. I am not saying the war in Iraq or Afghanistan is right or wrong, I am saying have some respect for those that protect you, to do that they need our support and they need the correct equipment. If the government sorted out the procurement system they would not only have enough money to do what the MOD want but they would have enough to do it with the cuts still applied. If we want independance from the USA then we need a strong military ability of our own. soldiers DO fight for royalty , this is what they sign up for British Army - Oath of Allegiance: Encyclopedia II - British Army - Oath of Allegiance All soldiers must take the Oath of Allegiance on joining the Army. Those who believe in God use the following words: I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me. [2] Others replace the words "swear by Almighty God" with ... it doesnt mention anything about the man in the street i have every respect for soldiers fighting abroad , but the tactics they are ordered to use make them fit for nowt else but target practice ie twats yes all of our armed forces swear allegiance to the monarch and are all proud to and proud to defend our country ....as for tactics you have obviously never served so how do you know what the tactics are .......twats after 12 years in the best regiment in the world and serving my queen and country (and yours) i take serious offence at that .....if you dislike this country or are so willing to sell it short with your fear of invasion then leave ..........now please don't wait..........there may be a war and you would be conscripted then where would you be !!!!!!" i know what tactics are for the folowing reasons they are in the history books , and those accounts of history can be compared to factual statements made by people deployed using the tactics concerned , such as my father who fought for 5 years in italy , france , greece , iraq , to name but a few , on ACTIVE service during WW2 when the usa invaded iraq after they annexed a neighbouring country the tactics used were those of hanibal who fought the romans a few thousand years ago , the tactics hanibal used are still taught today in american milliatary academys if you watch the news , the tactics in afganistan are talked about on a daily basis , so you dont need to serve in the forces to have an understanding about tactics you assume that i have never served , thats a very big assumption to make by a person that has no idea what i have done , or who i have worked for in my life personal info like that is not a thing that i am prepared to go into on a web thread like this but heres a few places ive worked in buck house , windsor castle , houses of parliament , northwood , gchg , awre , ruth lab , frimly green , roehampton , deepcut , chicksands as for the word "prat" my father says he was treated like a prat when after the war he went to the labour exchange for a job and they told him to fuck off and he says ( and so do i ) when a soldier comes back from afganistan with a limb missing and has to get help from either the british legion ( charity ) or help the heroes ( charity ) they are treated like prats because they should have all there treatements etc BY RIGHT not a fucking ( charity ) that treatement should be provided , and paid for by the state , namely the queen it is her land and empire that they were defending when wounded she is the one that rakes in money from the country , she even owns the fucking sea bed off the coast we have to pay tax for any gravel we scoop of the sea bed , and tax for putting wind farms offshore this year it will be 37 million quid for wind farm tax going the the queen let her use that money to help the heroes as for me and my fear of invasion i am going to do exactly the same thing as the queen she has strategic plans so that if invasion is iminent she has a neutral country that she will fuck off to , while she leaves the armed forces here to try sort out the shit the armed forces will be fighting on the beaches , in the fields , in the streets and she wont be here so what good for her is good enough for me by the way prince harry wont be here either , he will be with the queen , and will probably have the same half a dozen sas troops sorounding him that he had when he did his bullshit pr 6 weeks in iraq | |||
"before we consider what ordanance we need in these modern times its worth looking back in history to consider what needs we had in the past , and how wars were fought we had the blanket bombing of coventry , london , and in germany we had the same in dresden etc also a few nuclear bombs were droped in japan as far as tactics go , if the french resistance blew up a railway line , the germans lined up 100 villiagers and shot them , or sent them off to concentration camps there was some real heavy battles etc , like the siege of stalingrad it dont work like that anymore take the pirates of somalia , there a big problem to the UK and USA we got trident , and the US have got a bigger trident between us there umpteen aircraft carriers , landing craft , jet fighters , tanks , you name it what can we do to stop the pirates ? fuck all at the moment we are at war in afghanistan , what is our objective there ? it seems we are there to either stop the terrorist training camps , even though they can move them , or start others in another country at the drop of a hat ( they can do that easier than i can move house ) and / or introduce democracy , build new schools , infastructure etc so what ordanance do the soldiers need there ? perhaps a cheque book and a t shirt with TWAT written on the back in my opinion all these big toys are a fucking joke , a total waste of money the only thing they are any good for is the future king to sit behind the steering wheel and show what a big man he is even though if anything happened it would be too dangerous for him to go anywhere near any action as he would shit his pants apart from that why should we be concerned about defending the "nation" its not our nation its the queens nation if there was a serrious threat of being invaded i think i would sell up and go live in somewhere like argentina let the queen defend her own fecking nation like king harold tried , it wasnt too dangerous for him to be up front near the action was it ? My God why are you even in this Country ? why do you hate it so much ? I wish you cared a fraction for our servicemen facing bigger dangers from lack of equipment than you do for what the Royals do. For your information British Servicemen do not fight for Royalty, no matter what the Royals may think, they fight so that you and I can sleep safely in thier beds, they fight to cut down the threat of terrorism which would be an everyday occurence if it was not for what they are willing to do to prevent it. I am not saying the war in Iraq or Afghanistan is right or wrong, I am saying have some respect for those that protect you, to do that they need our support and they need the correct equipment. If the government sorted out the procurement system they would not only have enough money to do what the MOD want but they would have enough to do it with the cuts still applied. If we want independance from the USA then we need a strong military ability of our own. soldiers DO fight for royalty , this is what they sign up for British Army - Oath of Allegiance: Encyclopedia II - British Army - Oath of Allegiance All soldiers must take the Oath of Allegiance on joining the Army. Those who believe in God use the following words: I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me. [2] Others replace the words "swear by Almighty God" with ... it doesnt mention anything about the man in the street i have every respect for soldiers fighting abroad , but the tactics they are ordered to use make them fit for nowt else but target practice ie twats yes all of our armed forces swear allegiance to the monarch and are all proud to and proud to defend our country ....as for tactics you have obviously never served so how do you know what the tactics are .......twats after 12 years in the best regiment in the world and serving my queen and country (and yours) i take serious offence at that .....if you dislike this country or are so willing to sell it short with your fear of invasion then leave ..........now please don't wait..........there may be a war and you would be conscripted then where would you be !!!!!! i know what tactics are for the folowing reasons they are in the history books , and those accounts of history can be compared to factual statements made by people deployed using the tactics concerned , such as my father who fought for 5 years in italy , france , greece , iraq , to name but a few , on ACTIVE service during WW2 when the usa invaded iraq after they annexed a neighbouring country the tactics used were those of hanibal who fought the romans a few thousand years ago , the tactics hanibal used are still taught today in american milliatary academys if you watch the news , the tactics in afganistan are talked about on a daily basis , so you dont need to serve in the forces to have an understanding about tactics you assume that i have never served , thats a very big assumption to make by a person that has no idea what i have done , or who i have worked for in my life personal info like that is not a thing that i am prepared to go into on a web thread like this but heres a few places ive worked in buck house , windsor castle , houses of parliament , northwood , gchg , awre , ruth lab , frimly green , roehampton , deepcut , chicksands as for the word "prat" my father says he was treated like a prat when after the war he went to the labour exchange for a job and they told him to fuck off and he says ( and so do i ) when a soldier comes back from afganistan with a limb missing and has to get help from either the british legion ( charity ) or help the heroes ( charity ) they are treated like prats because they should have all there treatements etc BY RIGHT not a fucking ( charity ) that treatement should be provided , and paid for by the state , namely the queen it is her land and empire that they were defending when wounded she is the one that rakes in money from the country , she even owns the fucking sea bed off the coast we have to pay tax for any gravel we scoop of the sea bed , and tax for putting wind farms offshore this year it will be 37 million quid for wind farm tax going the the queen let her use that money to help the heroes as for me and my fear of invasion i am going to do exactly the same thing as the queen she has strategic plans so that if invasion is iminent she has a neutral country that she will fuck off to , while she leaves the armed forces here to try sort out the shit the armed forces will be fighting on the beaches , in the fields , in the streets and she wont be here so what good for her is good enough for me by the way prince harry wont be here either , he will be with the queen , and will probably have the same half a dozen sas troops sorounding him that he had when he did his bullshit pr 6 weeks in iraq " What nonsense..... having taken the Oath in 1986 and still serving the Queen and Country I can assure you that you do need to serve to have an understanding of tactics and having done 2 tours each of Telic and Herrick I can assure you that our TTPs change daily!!!! have you heard of 'Mission Command'? As for us all being TWATS..... what a stupid narrow minded comment, I have many friends who came back in boxes or wheel chairs and they (and their families) have never thought as themselves as TWATS..... that must be an opinion that you (and your father) have. Fully agree that the state should provide for the needs of the injured and not charity..... but it does not, and if it did I somehow think you would be one of the first ones to open a thread slagging it off anyway. thank you for your insight into your wealth of Military knowledge and your skill as a tactician, but I cant actually recall any recent conflicts being fought in buck house , windsor castle , houses of parliament , northwood , gchg , awre , ruth lab , frimly green , roehampton , deepcut , chicksands. Anybody can read about it and profess to know about it but actually doing it is totally different. And one final point, you mentioned Prince Harry and his 6 week PR stunt, if I recall he actually deployed to Afghanistan and not Iraq | |||
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"Luton_Couple: You amaze me sometimes in your ability to talk utter nonsense. Your anti-Royalty stance blinds you to any form of reason at all. You seem to be indicating that you served in the forces, so at some point you took the Oath and then took the Queen's shilling, which isn't really the Queen's shilling, it's ours, but the phrase is used as an expression and not meant to be taken literally. The Queen, her family AND the government would ALL leave the UK if we were invaded for two reasons: 1) to prevent an invading force using them to prop up a puppet government. 2) to co-ordinate a campaign of resistance. We had French and Polish leaders over here in WW2 and that was instrumental in co-ordinating resistance to Germany in France and Poland. You know all this so why are you being so belligerent and, well, tbh, prattish - to use a word you're familiar with." i said i "worked" in those establishments no more than that , to indicate i have conversed personaly with those directly involved with defence in most of the things i say on the threads its from personal experience as opposed to cutting and pasting off wikepedia etc you say the queen could be used to prop up a puppet government , that indicates to me that your agree the queen has influence over a government even though it is supposed to be democratic also you say if the queen was in exile overseas she could orchistrate a campaign or resistance , that can mean only one thing , the queen is in command of the armed forces as you well know she is the only one that can declare war ! all im trying to point out is that when we defend our country ( the thread is about defence ) the queen has more to defend than the bloke living in a council house , or rented room somewhere , or indeed the bloke who looks out of his window and sees the bedfordshire yeoman pub it is her empire , she gets all the benefits from the land , gravel extraction from the sea bed , rent for offshore windfarms , duchy of cornwall , crown estates , so on and so forth so she should get on her horse and go to afganistan , the front line that is how royalty should conduct themselves but they have it all sewn up now like a box of kippers even the police have to swear alleagence to the queen look ........ you cant vote the queen out all you can do is to oppose her and overthrow her or the monarch in power by force you cant complain if i oppose the queen because by its very nature the monarch is there by either blood line , or brute force i dare say her ancestors sat there writing letters just like im doing now , because at the time they were not in power but had designs on overthrowing whoever was just because there has been a very long time since there was a change of blood line doesnt mean it wont happen in the future all it takes is another crocodile to come along thats a bit bigger and a tad hungry so if i want to snarle i will  | |||
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"It makes anything you say on any given subject very difficult to attach any sense of credibility to. Your anti-Royalist stance pervades right through all you say. You've mentioned before that you spend part of your time in Spain. They have a monarch do they not? Try and criticise their monarch as vociferously over there as you do ours over here and you may well get the same reaction. We live in a state headed by a monarch, and most of us are in perfect harmony with that. Her Majesty has no real power at all and she can only declare war if her Prime Minister ORDERS her to. She can appoint a government but only when the PEOPLE tell her which one we want, and the moment she decides that she doesn't want to declare war or she refuses to accept a change of government she'll find herself deposed faster than Speedy Gonzalez on amphetamine. She is a figurehead, someone to rally behind, for the country to unite behind in the face of enemies who would see us defeated, but she also acts as a foundation for the Commonwealth, a bedrock, an anchor, that would leave us isolated and alone were we to become a republic. It would also leave all those little far flung places who are Commonwealth members wide open to invasion from neighbouring countries who have long lusted after a foothold outside of their own territories. We provide that umbrella of safety for those tiny little nations and yes, we pay to improve their lives, but we also get back so much more from them too. Canada, India, Australia - all Commonwealth countries that provide lucrative trade deals with the UK and Her Maj plays a huge part in securing those contracts with Royal Warrants, State Visits etc. You do her a disservice as she has been a wonderful monarch in her 50 solid years of service to her country. She's my Queen and it will be a sad day indeed when she goes. Anyone who claims to be British and then slates her with their next breath is not British in my eyes as they clearly have no understanding of what it is to BE British." spain ........ the part of spain i visit the most is catalonia , they absolutely detest the monarchy , they have there own flag , there own language ( that where i visit trust me they speak it ) to the point of cocking a deaf one to casteliano , and are fighting politicaly like crazy to become independant from spain in fact they have recently added a blue star to the old flag of 5 red stripes on a yellow backdrop to promote the indepencia party ( or something like that ) in the north of spain is the well known ETA group , euskadi ta askatasuna ( basque lands for freedom )another part of spain that would gladly shoot the king as far as the commonwealth goes australia are very near to getting shot of her , most of the others are independant , and a few are still pissed off for being expoited like the raj in india with there tea plantations worked by virtual slaves , talking of slaves some countries were used solely for the purpose of obtaining slaves the commonwealth is nothing to be proud of i certainly am not , at least i had nothing to do with the wicked way those countries were exploited hundreds of years ago by the likes of liz 1 what was done to the native american indian ranks alongside the holacaust , we should hang our heads in shame the queen is the only person that can declare war , you say someone tells her to do this or not as the case may be , and if she dissagrees will be booted out who is going to boot her out ? seeing as the police force take an oath to do her bidding , and the monarchy are themselves some of the highest ranking generals in the armed forces talking of armed forces this advert came on whils i was typing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8doC4IDHbWI soldiers returning home from fighting under the name of the crown , blinded etc and having to rely on CHARITY lets have a bit of pomp and ceremony where the crown helps wounded soldiers or at least lets do something so they are looked after as a right to have to go on the telly and ask for charity to help wounded service personel beggars belief | |||
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"Today, of all days, is a perfect example of why defence cuts are a BAD THING. Who, a few months ago, could have predicted the Britain would be evacuating UK citizens from Libya? Who'd have imagined Cumberland would have to be redepolyed to assist? What if there hadn't been such an asset nearby when HMG can't even organise a simple charter flight? That's why defence cuts are a BAD THING. You never know what's coming round the corner. Safe home all. PS I believe there's a whiff of Brylcreem over Libya too. " Couldn't the government just tell a commercial airline to cancel a few holiday flights to go save some lives instead and ask a passing tanker or cruise ship to pick people up lol, don't need an army, navy and airforce on expensive standby to rescue a load of well paid oil workers do we? | |||
" Couldn't the government just tell a commercial airline to cancel a few holiday flights to go save some lives instead and ask a passing tanker or cruise ship to pick people up lol, don't need an army, navy and airforce on expensive standby to rescue a load of well paid oil workers do we?" Clearly they couldn't. You might consider having Cumberland on patrol in the Med as being 'expensive' but consider the cost of the alternative. How many British lives might have been lost had HMG dithered further? Reports suggest the first civillian flight out was paid for by UK oils companies. | |||
"You might consider having Cumberland on patrol in the Med as being 'expensive' but consider the cost of the alternative. How many British lives might have been lost had HMG dithered further? Reports suggest the first civillian flight out was paid for by UK oils companies." How many British lives? Due to dithering, or lack of a ship? At what cost? Depends what value you're putting on each life. What difference does it make who paid for the first flights out? | |||
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"Defence cuts are an excellent thing and they don't go far enough. " why? | |||
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"No reflection on the brave folks who work for our Forces. However... having followed the US into 2 ill thought out and lengthy conflicts that have gone on for a decade are we any safer? And when was the last time that our nuclear weapons were used or even threatened to be used. Total waste of money. Why don't we accept our place in the world instead of dreaming that we are anything other than yes men to the Americans? The waste has been enormous. Nimrod etc. Giant cost overrruns. Use the defence money for health and education for me. Only my OP though." the purpose of a nuclear deterrent is actually in it's name...it's a deterrent. we don't want to use them! we also don't want others using them on us...it's a deterrent to prevent that. as for whether the wars have offered any kind of benefit...well, how would we know what would have happened if we didn't go in? we did come under attack form extremists and that threat still exists. it's a matter of who's streets you'd rather fight it on. not that i condone war, but ask yourself that question | |||
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"Defence cuts are an excellent thing and they don't go far enough. " As someone who works for the service.... don't blame the MOD for what we get into and what we are sent to fight for, and don't blame us for the way we spend our budgets. Blame the politicians who tell us what to do, what to buy, where to go and then slash our budgets whilst we are trying to do those things, correctly and whilst trying to keep our military safe. | |||
"........... Dr Fox writes that this is down to bad management of the contracts. How wonderful of him...how much has he actually researched this? this government has come in and made too many swift decisions leading to short term, if somewhat short sighted, decisions. .................... " Fox has been banging on of late about how delays add costs to any project yet (almost) the first announcement he made was to postpone the new submarine contract for 5 years in order to appease his Lib Dem chums. | |||
"If a group of Brits decide that the lure of lucrative wages is worth going to a well known trouble spot then how is it the British taxpayer's responsibility to get them out when it all goes tits up? I'm not saying they should be abandoned to their fate but they should damn well appreciate that we don't HAVE to go and get them and they should be bloody grateful when we do - and hand over some of that lucrative pay packet they've been earning - tax free! "It matters not a jot where they are, what job they're doing or how much they're being paid - tax free or not. They're British subjects in danger overseas and entitled to the protection of HMG -even if the current lot aren't particularly good at the job. | |||
"... as for whether the wars have offered any kind of benefit...well, how would we know what would have happened if we didn't go in? we did come under attack form extremists and that threat still exists. it's a matter of who's streets you'd rather fight it on. not that i condone war, but ask yourself that question " Yes, but we started the Iraq war against a country that was not a threat to us: if we hadn't, then that invisible threat couldn't have been used against us. Iraq would have continued to be ruled by Saddam; it wouldn't have been a democracy, but more of its civilians would be alive today, than its decimated population after enormous civilian and other deaths that have happened during the war. I do believe there would be a greater number of that country's people alive, compared to now, even though Saddam was a murderous evil doer, against his own people (though no threat to the UK). Are we safer as a result of having started that, as well as other wars? In all likelihood, no, we're actually at greater risk: the same extremists that you mention, that exist here, as well as in other countries, have grown to hate us even more since our invasions. Our warmongering has just stoked the flames, and it's no coincidence that our terror threat alert remains at Severe 'This means that a terrorist attack is highly likely'. Sadly, after having enraged ever more people, this has made it easier for terrorist groups to recruit and plan plots against us. | |||
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"Mr Bish has served in the Infantry for nearly 22 years now and im sure he would have a lot to say about this thread if he wasnt out of the country right now. First of all im sure he would say to them that recon we should pull out of afghan then if they wasnt there then what the fuck would they do, be board at home staffing on and off a gate. doing PT each mornig etc etc. He deffinatly joined up to serve our country not to just sit in a army base. As do most of the guys and girls that join up, otherwise what would be the point. I think the armed forces should be provided with what they need to defent the country, they have made cuts in the past without thining of the future and now there is not nearly enough specialized bomb disposal units for thats needed, dues to cuts years ago when there was no war on. So they have to think about the future as well as saving money. What really pisses me off is the care they get when injured as a poster earlier said they have to be looked after by charitys. Many single guys that leave the army end up on the streets as they are not porvided with council housing when they leave, unlike married soldiers, also dispicalble. Cosidering the wages bankeers etc etc get there pay could better refelct the jobs they do and the unsocial hours and working away. Rant over this is MY opinion im sure if MR Bish was here he would have lots to say after serving nearly 22 years of his life in the army. We should all RESPECT these man and women for the protection they provide, wether it be to the queen or Us, Its OUR country they are protecting. " I could not agree with you more, this country is renowned for it's armed forces everywhere in the world except in it's own country. Our government should be bending over backwards to help everyone of them and their families. | |||
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"Mr Bish has served in the Infantry for nearly 22 years now and im sure he would have a lot to say about this thread if he wasnt out of the country right now. First of all im sure he would say to them that recon we should pull out of afghan then if they wasnt there then what the fuck would they do, be board at home staffing on and off a gate. doing PT each mornig etc etc. He deffinatly joined up to serve our country not to just sit in a army base. ........... " I kinda understand what you're saying but I'm not convinced the UK can continue to arrange a supply of armed conflicts just to stop servicemen and women getting bored. | |||
"If a group of Brits decide that the lure of lucrative wages is worth going to a well known trouble spot then how is it the British taxpayer's responsibility to get them out when it all goes tits up? I'm not saying they should be abandoned to their fate but they should damn well appreciate that we don't HAVE to go and get them and they should be bloody grateful when we do - and hand over some of that lucrative pay packet they've been earning - tax free!
It matters not a jot where they are, what job they're doing or how much they're being paid - tax free or not.
They're British subjects in danger overseas and entitled to the protection of HMG -even if the current lot aren't particularly good at the job."Frankly, that's bullshit. If you (sic) decide to opt out of the tax rules that the rest of us live by then you sink or swim on your own. There is no automatic right to be bailed out - at the taxpayers expense (those that domicile and pay taxes in the UK), and then be able to say, "Hey, I'm a Brit, send a fucking warship to get me you twats!" | |||
"Mr Bish has served in the Infantry for nearly 22 years now and im sure he would have a lot to say about this thread if he wasnt out of the country right now. First of all im sure he would say to them that recon we should pull out of afghan then if they wasnt there then what the fuck would they do, be board at home staffing on and off a gate. doing PT each mornig etc etc. He deffinatly joined up to serve our country not to just sit in a army base. ........... I kinda understand what you're saying but I'm not convinced the UK can continue to arrange a supply of armed conflicts just to stop servicemen and women getting bored. " Im not saying just to stop them being board, how would you fight terrorisum then?. If we was getting bombed all the time and they was all coming from afghan then what would you want to do? How would you fight it? I understand you cant keep them over there to stop the boardom, im not trying to say that. I was more commenting on the ppl who say get the poor soldiers out of there. ok get them out of there to do what??? sit on camp with sod all to do? Most soldiers want to fight or do something other than drills guard duty etc etc. | |||
"If a group of Brits decide that the lure of lucrative wages is worth going to a well known trouble spot then how is it the British taxpayer's responsibility to get them out when it all goes tits up? I'm not saying they should be abandoned to their fate but they should damn well appreciate that we don't HAVE to go and get them and they should be bloody grateful when we do - and hand over some of that lucrative pay packet they've been earning - tax free!
It matters not a jot where they are, what job they're doing or how much they're being paid - tax free or not.
They're British subjects in danger overseas and entitled to the protection of HMG -even if the current lot aren't particularly good at the job.
Frankly, that's bullshit.
If you (sic) decide to opt out of the tax rules that the rest of us live by then you sink or swim on your own. There is no automatic right to be bailed out - at the taxpayers expense (those that domicile and pay taxes in the UK), and then be able to say, "Hey, I'm a Brit, send a fucking warship to get me you twats!"
"You may well think it's bullshit but it's one of the reasons why a British passport is so highly prized. | |||
"Mr Bish has served in the Infantry for nearly 22 years now and im sure he would have a lot to say about this thread if he wasnt out of the country right now. First of all im sure he would say to them that recon we should pull out of afghan then if they wasnt there then what the fuck would they do, be board at home staffing on and off a gate. doing PT each mornig etc etc. He deffinatly joined up to serve our country not to just sit in a army base. ........... I kinda understand what you're saying but I'm not convinced the UK can continue to arrange a supply of armed conflicts just to stop servicemen and women getting bored. Im not saying just to stop them being board, how would you fight terrorisum then?. If we was getting bombed all the time and they was all coming from afghan then what would you want to do? How would you fight it? I understand you cant keep them over there to stop the boardom, im not trying to say that. I was more commenting on the ppl who say get the poor soldiers out of there. ok get them out of there to do what??? sit on camp with sod all to do? Most soldiers want to fight or do something other than drills guard duty etc etc. " I've never served with anyone who WANTED to fight. Once they're told to do it, they do it with total professionalism but it isn't something they want to do. | |||
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"If a group of Brits decide that the lure of lucrative wages is worth going to a well known trouble spot then how is it the British taxpayer's responsibility to get them out when it all goes tits up? I'm not saying they should be abandoned to their fate but they should damn well appreciate that we don't HAVE to go and get them and they should be bloody grateful when we do - and hand over some of that lucrative pay packet they've been earning - tax free!
It matters not a jot where they are, what job they're doing or how much they're being paid - tax free or not.
They're British subjects in danger overseas and entitled to the protection of HMG -even if the current lot aren't particularly good at the job.
Frankly, that's bullshit.
If you (sic) decide to opt out of the tax rules that the rest of us live by then you sink or swim on your own. There is no automatic right to be bailed out - at the taxpayers expense (those that domicile and pay taxes in the UK), and then be able to say, "Hey, I'm a Brit, send a fucking warship to get me you twats!"
"These people are simply trying to improve their lot in the only way they know how. Unlike those within this country that systematically defraud, rob or legally avoid paying their taxes etc in this country. With each British person returned home I would love to see any politician or banker taken and left behind in their stead. Only the most naive amongst us believe a word they say, so what use are they ? Apart from actively undermining this country whilst institutionally fleecing us all of course. They know as we all do, we all have to live with whichever party that's voted into power. We all then watch as they safely milk the systems in place with no realistic fear of any consequence or reprisal. BTW, how was your 3/6 month paid leave from work last year ? | |||
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"course they want to do something other than sit in camp, not saying fight but they like the adrenaline they like to do what they signed up for. Bish rather be in afghan then sat on his arse in camp all the time thats for sure. As for the comment above about enjoying payed leave, not sure in what context it is but bugger me if they not entitled to payed leave after seving in afghan for 6 months being shot at. sheeeshhhhh. sometimes i wonder why the sevice men bother with some of the ppl who slate them. Like Bish says no-one ever talks about the armed forces or gives a shit inless something like afghan is going on etc. When its all quiet no-one usually gives a toss. " I would hazard a guess that alot of countries are re_iewing their defences, given the upheavel in the middle East and North Africa... | |||
"BTW, how was your 3/6 month paid leave from work last year ? " It was 7 months in fact, and it was lovely tyvm.
One of the perks of being only one of a handful of engineers trained in what I do. | |||
"BTW, how was your 3/6 month paid leave from work last year ? It was 7 months in fact, and it was lovely tyvm.
One of the perks of being only one of a handful of engineers trained in what I do. "guess how many nuclear engineers they are..and what they're paid and what leave they don't get? the thing that always concerns me about these convos is that it turns into a debate about ill-thought through wars and we forget about the other work we do...like saving lives, intercepting drug couriers....folk are so blinkered. they focus on whats printed. whats the menetary value of publishing the good deeds they do? no-one wants to know... | |||
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"Generals and Admirals in defence cuts warnings.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12574757" You'd expect these guys to think they way the do but it's difficult to escape the conclusion that, if the proposed cuts go ahead, there'll simply be some tasks our armed forces are unable to fulfill. That might be another invasion of the Falklands, another 'Saddam invades Kuwait' situation somewhere else in the world, some fisheries or North Sea oil/ gas protection, anti-piracy work in the Gulf of Aden and beyond, anti-drug smuggling work in the Caribbean and beyond. We might, as a nation, decide that's acceptable - but I doubt it. | |||
"Generals and Admirals in defence cuts warnings.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12574757 You'd expect these guys to think they way the do but it's difficult to escape the conclusion that, if the proposed cuts go ahead, there'll simply be some tasks our armed forces are unable to fulfill. That might be another invasion of the Falklands, another 'Saddam invades Kuwait' situation somewhere else in the world, some fisheries or North Sea oil/ gas protection, anti-piracy work in the Gulf of Aden and beyond, anti-drug smuggling work in the Caribbean and beyond. We might, as a nation, decide that's acceptable - but I doubt it." ...even saving lives of folk lost in mountains or at sea..let's not forget that | |||
"BTW, how was your 3/6 month paid leave from work last year ? It was 7 months in fact, and it was lovely tyvm.
One of the perks of being only one of a handful of engineers trained in what I do.
guess how many nuclear engineers they are..and what they're paid and what leave they don't get?
the thing that always concerns me about these convos is that it turns into a debate about ill-thought through wars and we forget about the other work we do...like saving lives, intercepting drug couriers....folk are so blinkered. they focus on whats printed.
whats the menetary value of publishing the good deeds they do? no-one wants to know..."I have no idea about nuclear scientists and their renumeration packages. Someone asked me a question and I answered it. I have been informed by my bosses that had they known what they know now I would not have been on stand down for 7 months. At the time Virgin were telling us that the project I was working on was about to restart 'imminently', and they said that on a monthly basis. My company didn't want to lose me so they told me to sit tight. I didn't want to lose the job I had as I actually enjoy doing it, so I sat tight. It was a one off and won't be repeated. | |||
"BTW, how was your 3/6 month paid leave from work last year ? It was 7 months in fact, and it was lovely tyvm.
One of the perks of being only one of a handful of engineers trained in what I do.
guess how many nuclear engineers they are..and what they're paid and what leave they don't get?
the thing that always concerns me about these convos is that it turns into a debate about ill-thought through wars and we forget about the other work we do...like saving lives, intercepting drug couriers....folk are so blinkered. they focus on whats printed.
whats the menetary value of publishing the good deeds they do? no-one wants to know...
I have no idea about nuclear scientists and their renumeration packages.
Someone asked me a question and I answered it.
I have been informed by my bosses that had they known what they know now I would not have been on stand down for 7 months. At the time Virgin were telling us that the project I was working on was about to restart 'imminently', and they said that on a monthly basis. My company didn't want to lose me so they told me to sit tight. I didn't want to lose the job I had as I actually enjoy doing it, so I sat tight.
It was a one off and won't be repeated."£44k basic, with benefits....which are looking at being cut. in industry their counterparts are earning circa £110k ...yet we think we pay too much for defence and for our service men they certainly don't do it for money that's fo sho | |||
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"for anyone who asks what are we doing in afghanistan? my brother and i have both come close to being blown up. for him, he was innocently walking to work in london on 7/7. for me, it was while leading a patrol through kabul. all he had with him was a brief case and a mobile. i had state of the art body armour and helmet, a comprehensive personal first aid kit and a trained trauma medic on the patrol plus many years of experience to rely on. i have been back to afghanistan since and will gladly go again if means that millions of people in the UK can go about their daily business without fear of terrorism. that is why we need our armed forces, that is why we are in afghanistan and that is why i am proud to serve Queen and Country." Alot of us, understand why the forces are over in Afgan... Our streets are safer..thanks to the brave efforts of all who serve out there on our behalf ..... God bless all those who are or have been involved over there... | |||
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"I totaly agree! But I feel for the para s they've lost so many good men out there and are now on standby for Libya !!! Why is this our fight? " Why was Germany invading Poland our fight? | |||
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"In what can only be described as yet another Tory led coalition u turn it transpires at least two Nimrods, from Waddington, will be kept in service. It just goes to show that no matter how clever Liam Fox thinks he is there's no telling what's coming round the corner." yep ,your right you can never tell who's gonna have a pop at who next ,but as the yanks say the nuke threat is now from dirty conventional bombs in major cities ,you got to ask why we are spending 100 billion over 10 years on trident ,i mean thats all the cuts made so far in one swoop. and if someone lit a dirty bomb who you going to shoot that trident missile at ? . if its deterent lets pretend we got em like we did with the hydrogen bombs in the 50s or better still keep the ones we got and fire the 64 warheads we have anyway,if it ever got to the point of Mutually Assured Destruction scenario we wouldnt be around to find out if they went off or not ...lmao | |||
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"Clive Fairweather, a good chap in his day, has warned that "the (Tory led coalition) government may be forced to try to buy back former commandos from private companies to cope with a special forces recruitment crisis" Hasn't he, or anyone from the Con Dem 'coalition' heard about bolting the stable door.............?" Who said that the above practice only started when the current government came into power? I think you will find the timings that the papers are reporting are a little off! | |||
with a massive resource of unemployed folks who are right in the front of the queue
and you would need that level of numbers to secure certain oil resources
especially after funding iraq for so many years to push on the khuzestan region of iran - and iraq - dear oh dear failed
cos Iran are Persians - and are not a pushover - damn
what will we do
hmmmmmmmmmm well first lets fuck iraq and take theirs anyways
job done
but oil rules the world
and theres Iran running its bourse on the 4th largest reserve on the planet
ooooooooooooo bad guys bad guys maybe with nukes oooooo my god
holocaust deniers - terrorist supporters - nasty nasty nasty peoples
lets well lets try n secure the surrounding regions - lets maybe deal with libya - lets pressure syria - lets try n knock out their pals
then
then we can take em
led right up a garden path to oil
we are going to war with Iran folks and thats gonna be huge - budget cuts and bullshit - your gonna need a lot of boots on the ground cos you aint just bombing them with flashy aircraft
the US already declared war on Iran on March 20th 2008 - the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network was the beginning of strangling supplies and resources to Iran
check out Hubberts peak on oil
and the scary reality is we passed it years ago - the world is now running out oil at a rate that demand is faster than stock and its accelerating day by day
if your a big player in the world you neeeeeeeeeeeed oil big time!
and Iran has shed loads
budget cuts my ass we are going to hammer them and we will if we have to cause a big bang so the finger points the right way | |||
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thats for certain
and ships are not built in kirkcaldy and cowdenbeath - an aircraft carrier especially 2 as well as the other deals for new destroyers - are not just built in one place - they are built all over the country before final assembly
defence is also very very complex now
taking nothing at all from the friends and family i know doing it ......
but there is no armed force waging its way toward the uk - al queda in the UK have so far made the IRA look like superstars - and the IRA have still posed far more threat to the Uk
defence is about politics and resources - oil and gas
look at how much an oil transport driver got paid in iraq compared to a british soldier who can get blown apart and shot at - and is often tasked to support and back up that oil transport
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".......... They signed contracts for 2 aircraft carriers that HAD to be built as the cost of cancelling was greater so Gordon Browns constituents could be kept in work. ............ " As cheekykarma has pointed out, bits of these ship are built all over the UK - they're just assembled in Fife. Without the carrier orders, UK shipbuilding would have died a swift and undignified death. Nobody imagines an island race can survive without a navy and, I hope, nobody anticipates a time when we might have to source those ships from a foreign power. | |||
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" .................... and the major panic in that - is that we are in trouble with oil "If our increasing corpulent First Minister, Him Immensity Alex Salmonella, is to be believed - oil is no longer a problem. How, exactly, you run a Range Rover Overfinch on renewable wind power has yet to be explained. | |||
".......... They signed contracts for 2 aircraft carriers that HAD to be built as the cost of cancelling was greater so Gordon Browns constituents could be kept in work. ............ As cheekykarma has pointed out, bits of these ship are built all over the UK - they're just assembled in Fife. Without the carrier orders, UK shipbuilding would have died a swift and undignified death. Nobody imagines an island race can survive without a navy and, I hope, nobody anticipates a time when we might have to source those ships from a foreign power." Oh don't misunderstand me I am happy they are building the carriers and generally happy with what they are having to do to get the country back in shape. Pity they didn't say to the Yanks that we would only by the Joint Strike Fighter if it was built here under licence. As they do to us when buying aircraft.. And then we would have the aircraft for the carriers ..and what a formidable force they will be. | |||
" just like to add to voyeur also during our time of extreme streched resources those sneaky argentinians are after the falklands again and voiced hmmm maybes about it thats why we have a navy i wouldnt want to bet - but i do - we have launch silos on that island - as well as other interests - and nice wildlife too its very strategic ................... " There are no launch silos on Falkland. That's why, if you accept the UK must remain a nuclear weapon power, we will maintain and, in due course, replace Trident and the submarine delivery system. | |||
but we need oil to get there!
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"lol alex salmond is an arsehole! we sold out our oil - where we could have been like norway - or smarter with it we could have said NO! fuck you - cos we know your gonna want it we could have said no we will loan your equipment and pay ya back but no we flogged it - so its not scottish oil alex salmonds great ideas to make it scottish again is just - ehhhhh hallo - can we have this man tested for drugs! ...................... " In fairness to the puir soul he's married to woman, Moira, twice his age. Eck is 56. Draw your own conclusions | |||
it may just be a submarine base
it may just be a decoy
all of the above make it strategic and worth holding
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" i dont know at all there is launch silos on the falklands but considering our pals america - and looking at a map - and then thinking where is a good spot to have an ICBM launch point.......... ...................... " With Astute class submarines there's no real need for land based missile silos. That said, the Falklands location is 'possibly' where UK subs spend a bit of their time on the grounds that distance is no real drawback when the use of Trident is considered and hanging around the South Atlantic (or 'maybe' hanging around the South Atlantic) might be the disincentive the Argentinians need. | |||
" ..................... in the early 90s a russian first strike map plan was released showing its targets in the event of a full scale strike who knows how realistic it was ...... but the west coast and highlands of scotland were fucked by target points - especially around garelochead for obvious reasons .......................... " That's why we need 4 and not 3 Astute, or successor, class Trident missile submarines. There must ALWAYS be one at sea, somewhere no amount of surveilance can deter it from its task. That's why the current SDSR mustn't reduce our nuclear capacity in the way it has comprehensively f***-up the number of pilots available for Eurofighter ground attack work and so on. | |||
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" ..................... in the early 90s a russian first strike map plan was released showing its targets in the event of a full scale strike who knows how realistic it was ...... but the west coast and highlands of scotland were fucked by target points - especially around garelochead for obvious reasons .......................... That's why we need 4 and not 3 Astute, or successor, class Trident missile submarines. There must ALWAYS be one at sea, somewhere no amount of surveilance can deter it from its task. That's why the current SDSR mustn't reduce our nuclear capacity in the way it has comprehensively f***-up the number of pilots available for Eurofighter ground attack work and so on." Germany amongst many other country's manage well without. I really don't see why we waste all the money we do on arms. | |||
the land based threat is still the number one to certain scenarios
we are told ooo iran will want to chuck a nuke at israel by the news
but we all know - within 20 mins of that america and the uk would launch from land base sites and iran could not stop them
putting iran into the stone age - and russia and china would have to not dare get involved due to the MAD agreement and the fact iran if they did launched a hostile nuclear act on a protected territory
and it would be insanity to score maybe what half or 1 or even lets say 2 millon hits - to have your 60 mill population bombed into the stone age with 20 to 40 to 50 megatonne icbms
despite the bullshit - you can survive a nuclear blast quite well
you can rebuild etc - chernobyl was way different as that was an exposed ongoing reaction - whereas a bomb uses all its energy up in that first flash - fallout is limited
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