FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > moaning ginger git
moaning ginger git
Jump to: Newest in thread
   | |||
 | |||
"and ginger to boot???....not a lot going for him at all then really "Stu thats Hairist and cant be condoned | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"lol...mrs stu came home last night and said she hoped iceland were ready to be sued by the airlines....... . . " doesnt matter even if we could sue them they would only hold a vote to ignore us isnt that what they did when we asked for our money back? actually blooming good idea !! no relief fund unless we get our money back | |||
 | |||
"one of my friends runs a private corporate airline..and he was involved yesterday in the conference call with NATS and 400 other airlines/charter companies....most of the pilots and airlines were happy to fly but NATS had the final say..... they hold the trump card ...also have a friend who trains miltary pilots and he was happy to fly too but cant ! "but the problem is that it only takes one plane to come down and then the question would have been "why did you let them up???" they are in a no win, and it is a european wide decision.... I work for a european travel department, mind you all the ways we have managed to get back, god we are resourceful people at time...... | |||
| |||
| |||
"Personally, I am not at all convinced that the widespread closure of airports is absolutely necessary. Aircraft engines have stopped whilst flying through a plume of volcanic discharge but we are actually talking about a relatively thin layer of dust at about 20,000 feet. This is happening now because it is early days but if the volcano continues to erupt for years to come and we get this ash every time there is a northerly wind, just wait until commercial pressures kick in. Modern aircraft will be up and through that level of dust in seconds and local turboprops can navigate below it, albeit there maybe some work ahead for NATS operating temporary "airways." " Why are airports both here and on Europe shut then - is it a conspiracy? Z | |||
"one of my friends runs a private corporate airline..and he was involved yesterday in the conference call with NATS and 400 other airlines/charter companies....most of the pilots and airlines were happy to fly but NATS had the final say..... they hold the trump card ...also have a friend who trains miltary pilots and he was happy to fly too but cant !
but the problem is that it only takes one plane to come down and then the question would have been "why did you let them up???"
they are in a no win, and it is a european wide decision....
I work for a european travel department, mind you all the ways we have managed to get back, god we are resourceful people at time......"It only takes one blocked fuel line. Beats me why people moan when safety is involved. | |||
"Personally, I am not at all convinced that the widespread closure of airports is absolutely necessary. Aircraft engines have stopped whilst flying through a plume of volcanic discharge but we are actually talking about a relatively thin layer of dust at about 20,000 feet. This is happening now because it is early days but if the volcano continues to erupt for years to come and we get this ash every time there is a northerly wind, just wait until commercial pressures kick in. Modern aircraft will be up and through that level of dust in seconds and local turboprops can navigate below it, albeit there maybe some work ahead for NATS operating temporary "airways." Why are airports both here and on Europe shut then - is it a conspiracy? Z" Me thinks so lol They've said we have our own sun so we can fecking stay in our own country for a change  | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"There are two things here which are the "nub" of the safety issue: 1) Previously aircraft jet engines have stalled after ingesting volcanic ash. The engines did start again when the aircraft came out of the cloud but the engines were written off. Bear in mind though, this was flying through the plume from an eruption, not flying through airborne residue. There is always volcanic ash in the atmosphere - always. 2) Very fine volcanic ash can enter and block the pitot tubes and static vents on airliners. These tubes and vents provide air speed and altitude information to the pilots. As scenario (1) is unlikely with the density of ash currently i the atmosphere, my guess is that the main worry is about (2) and there will probably be frantic testing to see how dense the ash needs to be to block the pitots and whether the risk is mitigated by expediting the climb, or descent, through the ash layer. As stated before though, something will give cos the airlines cannot deal with grounded aircraft for too long before going bust and the clock is ticking. Commercial pressures will bring an end to this in my opinion. " seriously - if it was just over exaggerated as you suggest then i would presume pressure would have been bought down before now im sitting here trying to work out why your response has annoyed me - will work it out and come back! ------ off to get white wine and look for tickets to the picture house | |||
| |||
"there a few flights left and landed at prestwick airport i know one of them was from barbadoes that was meant to land at london somewhere!! poor sods but on the plus side the weather lovely here and scenery great xx" | |||
| |||
| |||
"enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine cant have you lot going hungry now! " is ok....we'll just come down and eat everyone in England  | |||
"enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine cant have you lot going hungry now! is ok....we'll just come down and eat everyone in England "would that be a spit roast or lightly broiled? | |||
"enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine cant have you lot going hungry now! is ok....we'll just come down and eat everyone in England "hahahahahaha | |||
"enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine cant have you lot going hungry now! is ok....we'll just come down and eat everyone in England
would that be a spit roast or lightly broiled?"oh....we're easy | |||
| |||
| |||
"There are two things here which are the "nub" of the safety issue: 1) Previously aircraft jet engines have stalled after ingesting volcanic ash. The engines did start again when the aircraft came out of the cloud but the engines were written off. Bear in mind though, this was flying through the plume from an eruption, not flying through airborne residue. There is always volcanic ash in the atmosphere - always. 2) Very fine volcanic ash can enter and block the pitot tubes and static vents on airliners. These tubes and vents provide air speed and altitude information to the pilots. As scenario (1) is unlikely with the density of ash currently i the atmosphere, my guess is that the main worry is about (2) and there will probably be frantic testing to see how dense the ash needs to be to block the pitots and whether the risk is mitigated by expediting the climb, or descent, through the ash layer. " It's also corrosive. Just because a plane is ok after flying through a cloud of ash, it doesn't mean it's going to be safe 6 months down the line. | |||
"seriously - how can that bloke go on television moaning about the fact they wont let him fly as there is a good chance that the plane will be bought down by volcanic ash give him the keys to the plane and tell him to go sometimes people really do get on my goat "If this was the guy on BBC News 'East Midlands Today'this morning saying the same thing, he was not only a moaner but a scottish moaner!! (hope he's not a member on Fab, lol). | |||
"hey iv just planted my potatoes carrots parsley pumpkins etc so i will be fine!! mind you a famine wouldnt be a bad idea...... and dont you tell my mum that she be away bloody panic buyin lol!!! i think i will still sleep soundly tonite knowin that there not much chance of a famine lol xxx "I thought the famine was over. Can they go home?  | |||
"I think it's safe to assume that no plane is going to be brought down by this volcanic ash, they wouldn't be flying in the first place if it was so easy to bring them down, but it's also safe to assume they are not designed for constant flight in atmospheres thick with the abrasive volcanic ash, and that too many flights of that kind would shorten the life span of the engines or indeed the actual planes. So if they ignored the conditions they would have safety issues later on down the line, or would need to completely replace a large proportion of the fleet, and who do you suppose would pick up the bill for all that? I think it's a combination of future safety and business costs that are mostly being considered, and the fact that it's a fairly unkown situation for these skies, so there maybe unknown risks in flying." Not true, the silica based ash (glass) enters the jet engine at the front, becomes molten as it goes through the 1st stage of the engine, then cools in the second stage & solidify's causing a build of solid glass that WILL stall the engine. If that happens to all the engines = crash situation!!!. I know, I was in engine test with Rolls-Royce for many years. | |||
| |||
"hey iv just planted my potatoes carrots parsley pumpkins etc so i will be fine!! mind you a famine wouldnt be a bad idea...... and dont you tell my mum that she be away bloody panic buyin lol!!! i think i will still sleep soundly tonite knowin that there not much chance of a famine lol xxx
I thought the famine was over.
Can they go home? "ooohh wonder how many have just made a voodoo doll of u lol!! xx | |||
"enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine cant have you lot going hungry now! " Dont worry if the crops do fail we've always got deep fried mars bars and pizza to fall back on. | |||
" Not true, the silica based ash (glass) enters the jet engine at the front, becomes molten as it goes through the 1st stage of the engine, then cools in the second stage & solidify's causing a build of solid glass that WILL stall the engine. If that happens to all the engines = crash situation!!!. I know, I was in engine test with Rolls-Royce for many years. "Then you would know that there is always volcanic ash in the atmosphere and the amounts required to stall the engine require the engines to be operated within the immediate plume and not residue. | |||
The authorities obviously haven't thankfully! | |||
" Not true, the silica based ash (glass) enters the jet engine at the front, becomes molten as it goes through the 1st stage of the engine, then cools in the second stage & solidify's causing a build of solid glass that WILL stall the engine. If that happens to all the engines = crash situation!!!. I know, I was in engine test with Rolls-Royce for many years.
Then you would know that there is always volcanic ash in the atmosphere and the amounts required to stall the engine require the engines to be operated within the immediate plume and not residue."will you stop it or it be costa de la ayr for my holidays!!! xx | |||
"seriously - how can that bloke go on television moaning about the fact they wont let him fly as there is a good chance that the plane will be bought down by volcanic ash give him the keys to the plane and tell him to go sometimes people really do get on my goat
If this was the guy on BBC News 'East Midlands Today'this morning saying the same thing, he was not only a moaner but a scottish moaner!! (hope he's not a member on Fab, lol). "well i was trying not to point that bit out!!! | |||
"I heard on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday from one emailer was "what the UK wants from Iceland is cash not ash" "seriously generous i am finding it hard to type back to you with one eye closed! | |||
"I heard on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday from one emailer was "what the UK wants from Iceland is cash not ash"
seriously generous i am finding it hard to type back to you with one eye closed! "And why would that be-not got ash in your eye I hope!!!. | |||
| |||
surprised no one blamed the immigrants yet lol xx | |||
| |||
"I love how on forums there are plenty of experts that always know far more about a subject than the official bodies!! Why hasnt anyone from here phoned NATS up to say its actually ok and the planes can start flying again?? "I was thinking the very same thing! | |||
"now they think its goin to be another few days!!
surprised no one blamed the immigrants yet lol xx "Give it time: if the planes don't start flying tomorrow the usual suspects will! | |||
"enjoy the weather up there for now! just heard the five live say that the last time this happened in scotland it ruined the crops and caused a famine cant have you lot going hungry now! Cant be that serious our chippy open is ok....we'll just come down and eat everyone in England
hahahahahaha" | |||
| |||
 | |||
"im waitin on the hysteria startin..... food shortages!!! panic buyin!!" Oooooooooooooooooo great excuse for the supermarkets to rip us off, I imagine the boardrooms are full as we speak | |||
| |||
"im waitin on the hysteria startin..... food shortages!!! panic buyin!! Oooooooooooooooooo great excuse for the supermarkets to rip us off, I imagine the boardrooms are full as we speak "you can feel it comin!!! im waitin on the mummy call....... she great at the panic buyin!! xx | |||
"im waitin on the hysteria startin..... food shortages!!! panic buyin!! Oooooooooooooooooo great excuse for the supermarkets to rip us off, I imagine the boardrooms are full as we speak
you can feel it comin!!!
im waitin on the mummy call....... she great at the panic buyin!! xx "From the scientific website csmonitor .com : Volcanic ash is made up of tiny pieces of glass that can shut down a jet engine. A jet engine sucks in huge amounts of air that mixes with the fuel, ignites, and releases energy. When these bits of volcanic glass get drawn into a gas turbine jet engine, they melt and fuse to parts of the engine. The melting point of volcanic ash is about 1,100 Celsius. But a jet engine operates at temperatures about 300 degrees hotter. The bits of glass tend to melt onto the fuel nozzles and turbine blades, rather than simply passing through the engine. The result: the jet engine (or engines) may quit. The volcanic ash tends to be concentrated at the high altitudes where commercial airliners fly. But near the ground, it's dispersed, and doesn't have the same effect on cars, trains, or ship engines. Boeing, one of the world's largest manufacturers of commercial aircraft, says there have been about 90 incidents of aircraft being damaged by volcanic ash over the past three decades. One of the worst was the case of British Airways Flight 9 from London to Auckland, New Zealand. On June 24, 1982, the Boeing 747-200 flew through volcanic ash spewing from Mount Galunggung in Indonesia. All four jet engines quit within one minute. The plane dropped from 36,000 feet to 13,000 feet before the crew was able to restart each of the engines. Pilots have found that jet engines can often be restarted once the aircraft drops to a lower altitude, as the glass on the engine parts hardens, shatters, and falls away. The British Airways Flight 9 crew landed the aircraft safely in Jarkarta, Indonesia, but the volcanic ash had sandblasted the windshield of the aircraft, making it almost impossible for the pilots to see the runway. Volcanic ash doesn't tend to show up on aircraft weather radar (and it didn't during that British Airways Flight 9), because the radar is designed to detect moisture (thunder clouds) and the ash is too dry - or the particles are too small - to register. Also, the volcanic ash is often not visible at night ................ If anyone wants to fly at the moment, they are either barking mad or just give them the keys..... there would be a few less nutters around! **From Maddie..... who's scared witless of flying** | |||
| |||
"wasnt life more simpler before the net!! xx "Would lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvve to catch you in our net! lol | |||
| |||
| |||
" im sitting here trying to work out why your response has annoyed me - will work it out and come back! ------ " Maybe because I have the audacity to have a contrary opinion? Slavish obedience and acceptance to what I am told by the media has never been a strong point of mine - too much of a questioning mind and in this case - a "bit" of understanding of the issue. | |||
"So, unlike us Brits who just slavishly obey - Lufthansa, KLM and Air France have been sending test flights up and surprise, surprise - no adverse reactions and they hope to be flying full schedules again if further imminent test flights prove uneventful - source SKY News. " please............ rather than taking just a snippet take the full article... they were ASKED to go up by the EU on behalf of the European Airspace Agency also... it might have been wise to note that the British actually sent up a Small Plane on FRIDAY NIGHT to see what kind of particles are up in the Air at the moment... and are waiting on the results to be clarified...... | |||
| |||
" im sitting here trying to work out why your response has annoyed me - will work it out and come back! ------ Maybe because I have the audacity to have a contrary opinion? Slavish obedience and acceptance to what I am told by the media has never been a strong point of mine - too much of a questioning mind and in this case - a "bit" of understanding of the issue." Coo ......ello x | |||
the media????? shower of c&^%S!!!! there may be food shortages....... had to take mummy dear and aunty food shoppin!! the original panic buyers grrrr!!!! xx | |||
| |||
"So, unlike us Brits who just slavishly obey - Lufthansa, KLM and Air France have been sending test flights up and surprise, surprise - no adverse reactions and they hope to be flying full schedules again if further imminent test flights prove uneventful - source SKY News. " If you bothered to look into this fully you will see that there have been several test flights in Britain over the last four/five days by military aircraft and civil aircraft authority aircraft. Nieve to think that we wouldn't have been testing and monitoring the air quality ourselves..... | |||
| |||
"right as i see it and maybe im simplyfyin things here.... the airports etc are losin millions if they could fly safely they would?? but if a plane went up and crashed because of this how much would they be sued for?? now in my eyes if they could safely , they would but if its not safe and risk to life etc they wont ?? xx" You may well soon find that the risk is not quite what it has been made out to be as the cost/risk equation gets stretched with each passing hour. There are opinions already that a few airlines will bite the dust ( oo-er) in the coming days even if this event stops today. | |||
| |||
| |||
"If you bothered to look into this fully you will see that there have been several test flights in Britain over the last four/five days by military aircraft and civil aircraft authority aircraft. Nieve to think that we wouldn't have been testing and monitoring the air quality ourselves....." Not naive at all - I saw the BBC link with the immortal line: "There's lots of muck up there." KLM and Lufthansa are utilising service airliners not Dornier research aircraft and whether they were asked to do it by Eurocontrol or whether they were simply not prepared to accept the hype they have done more and quicker than any British airline has so far. Watch this space - the density of volcanic ash in the atmosphere can be measured and airliners can and will fly in and through low density layers of ash and/or sulphur dioxide because that stuff in low densities is always in the atmosphere anyway. | |||
"right as i see it and maybe im simplyfyin things here.... the airports etc are losin millions if they could fly safely they would?? but if a plane went up and crashed because of this how much would they be sued for?? now in my eyes if they could safely , they would but if its not safe and risk to life etc they wont ?? xx You may well soon find that the risk is not quite what it has been made out to be as the cost/risk equation gets stretched with each passing hour. There are opinions already that a few airlines will bite the dust ( oo-er) in the coming days even if this event stops today." obviously not seen the pictures from the Finnish Air force today.... google what happened to there F18 when it went thru the cloud on thursday..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/16/340727/pictures-finnish-f-18-engine-check-reveals-effects-of-volcanic.html and when the head of ryanair says there isn't much you can do because one patch may not be as dense as another.. and there is no way of actually telling!! he's not calling on heads to roll... he is stating better to be safe than sorry..... | |||
"there is no flamin chance!! unless they send david cameron up first to check the planes are ok !! not that i dont trust politicians but il take the word of experts before il take the word of someone without a clue! there must be somethin in it or we wouldnt have this havoc its no as if the airlines are doin it to be spiteful or annoy people! or are the experts in these fields there must be some risk or it would be back to normal! x" You are all forgetting that anything can be inflicted upon us now in the name of "safety." Swine Flu was the most recent worldwide panic and this is another. If the direct plume passed over this country and the ash was visible and concentrated then the danger would be very real indeed. I accept that I am in no way a qualified expert but I have sufficient background knowledge to offer a pretty good suggestion that in quite short order things will come back to normal with the caveat that the densities of ash are regularly measured. If this continues for very much longer, some of the biggest airlines in the world willgo bankrupt and the European economies will suffer enormously. That just won't happen but the return to normality will come with "spin." | |||
| |||
"and when the head of ryanair says there isn't much you can do because one patch may not be as dense as another.. and there is no way of actually telling!! he's not calling on heads to roll... he is stating better to be safe than sorry....." That is not quite correct. Density can be measured and this is probably how this "crisis" will end. BTW - The density over Finland was/is significantly greater than that over the UK and Continental Europe and the jet engines in military attack aircraft are different to those used in airliners. Kind of like comparing a Ferrari with a Land Rover Discovery. | |||
"That is not quite correct. Density can be measured and this is probably how this "crisis" will end. BTW - The density over Finland was/is significantly greater than that over the UK and Continental Europe and the jet engines in military attack aircraft are different to those used in airliners. Kind of like comparing a Ferrari with a Land Rover Discovery." But the question to you still stands.....would you be happy for your children to take off from a British airport this evening in a passenger jet? | |||
"But the question to you still stands.....would you be happy for your children to take off from a British airport this evening in a passenger jet? " Yes - and I am sure you will see normal service for everyone pretty soon anyway. | |||
"But the question to you still stands.....would you be happy for your children to take off from a British airport this evening in a passenger jet? Yes - and I am sure you will see normal service for everyone pretty soon anyway. " Until the next eruption and then of course depending on the wind.... Fortunately we have sensible people working at NATS and their European counterparts.... | |||
" Fortunately we have sensible people working at NATS and their European counterparts...." Air travel across much of Europe was paralyzed for a fourth day on Sunday by a huge cloud of volcanic ash, but Dutch and German test flights carried out without apparent damage seem to offer some hope of respite says Reuters. Dutch airline KLM said overnight inspection of an airliner after a test flight showed no damage to engines or other parts from ash in the atmosphere. Lufthansa also reported problem-free test flights, while Italian and French carriers announced they would be flying empty airliners on Sunday to assess conditions. KLM, acting on a Eurocontrol request, flew a Boeing 737-800 without passengers at the regular altitude of 10 km (6 miles) and up to the 13 km maximum on Saturday. Germany's Lufthansa said it flew 10 empty planes to Frankfurt from Munich at altitudes of up to 8 km. "We have not found anything unusual and no irregularities, which indicates the atmosphere is clean and safe to fly," said a spokeswoman for KLM, which is part of Air France-KLM. German airline Air Berlin said it had also carried out test flights and expressed irritation at the shutdown of European air space. "We are amazed that the results of the test flights done by Lufthansa and Air Berlin have not had any bearing on the decision-making of the air safety authorities," Chief Executive Joachim Hunold said. "The closure of the air space happened purely because of the data of a computer simulation at the Vulcanic Ash Advisory Center in London," he told the mass circulation Bild am Sonntag paper. | |||
| |||
| |||
"Then why haven't we seen the Germans sending up their passenger planes this weekend?....... If it's safe and all that...." http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/18/340746/german-carriers-lead-backlash-over-volcanic-ash-closures.html Link contains this text: German carriers Lufthansa and Air Berlin have expressed scepticism over the volcanic ash risk, and the need to keep airspace closed, after neither detected any technical problems during a series of positioning flights. Lufthansa has repositioned 10 Boeing 747-400 and Airbus A340 aircraft from Munich to Frankfurt, in preparation for eventual clearance to operate. The aircraft mainly performed under visual flight rules, limiting their altitude to 3,000m (9,800ft), although one of the jets was taken to 8,000m to assess the atmospheric conditions. A spokesman for the airline says that none of the aircraft showed any sign of volcanic ash damage. These results are generating a steadily-growing backlash against regulatory authorities and increasing doubts about the scientific basis for keeping European airspace closed. The Lufthansa spokesman argues that decisions appear to be founded on volcanic monitoring forecasts rather than actual atmospheric testing. "Everyone's basing decisions on estimates from computer simulations," he says. "We need additional tests and analysis, test flights need to be done. But this is not being done quickly enough." Air Berlin yesterday carried out positioning flights of three Airbus aircraft on the Munich-Dusseldorf and Nuremberg-Hamburg sectors. The airline says that technical inspections "did not reveal any adverse effects" on the jets, and is similarly questioning the rationale behind the airspace restrictions. "We are amazed that the results obtained from test flights carried out by Lufthansa and Air Berlin...did not have any influence whatsoever on the decisions taken by the aviation safety authorities," says Air Berlin chief Joachim Hunold. The carrier is offering to conduct formal test flights to examine the risk and is pressing the German transport ministry to establish a crisis-management operation. Pilots from the Netherlands are calling on governments to allow partial restoration of services. Dutch pilots' union VNV believes the concentration of volcanic particles is "so small that it presents no danger". Dutch carrier KLM is planning to operate another series of flights today following an initial airborne test on 17 April. KLM has secured permission for another nine flights. The first has been conducted out of Dusseldorf, at 06:30 today, with 20 crew members on board but no passengers. Seven aircraft are stranded in Dusseldorf and KLM aims to reposition these back to its Amsterdam Schiphol base. Its initial test flight, with a Boeing 737-800, aircraft indicated no operational problems and KLM says the "quality of the atmosphere is in order". KLM insists, however, that safety "remains the chief priority". Chief executive Peter Hartman stresses that the decision on resuming normal air operations lies with the Dutch and European authorities, but that it hopes to restore services as soon as possible if restrictions are lifted. Air France is carrying out its own test flight today, using an Airbus A320, and similar flights are reportedly to be undertaken in the UK. | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"Am guessing you are also the sort of person who would be the first to moan if a couple of planes crashed and killed a few hundred people?...... " Silly thing to say. I am old enough to remember an eruption in the 1970's where ash literally fell from the sky in the UK. There was no such over-reaction then. Aircraft engines fail in high density zones like a direct plume and we can all see that we are not in a plume but a dispersal zone. This really is all madness. Lets see how it pans out in the nextcouple of days - certainly our European cousins are starting to discredit the Met Office model on which the NATS advice (and subsequent Eurocontrol advice) has been based. | |||
| |||
" I am old enough to remember an eruption in the 1970's where ash literally fell from the sky in the UK. There was no such over-reaction then. Aircraft engines fail in high density zones like a direct plume and we can all see that we are not in a plume but a dispersal zone. This really is all madness. Lets see how it pans out in the nextcouple of days - certainly our European cousins are starting to discredit the Met Office model on which the NATS advice (and subsequent Eurocontrol advice) has been based. " All I can say is thank god we are listening to professionals and not a bloke from Bolton, at the end of the day as Madchick says they cannot chance it as lives are at stake. | |||
" This guy realy has no idea! "Why don't you just try looking past the headlines? Why don't you enlighten us with information about the density of volcanic ash in the air above the UK and Europe? You can't because that information is not factually available it is only available in theory. The UK Met Office is the most widely discredited publicly funded entity in the Western World and it has not yet even bothered to launch a single weather balloon to test the theory of their model against the actual conditions in the atmosphere. ALL of the NATS and Eurocontrol advice is coming from Met Office computer models. If I am wrong about everything else then please humour me by accepting that this must be wrong by any reasonable measure? I wonder when the air quality is finally assessed and we all get to see that the density is too low to cause aircraft to fall out of the sky or to cause lasting damage where will the law suits for the lost billions be aimed at - The UK Met Office - and by default - who will then end up paying those lawsuits? Have a guess. Just a thought................. | |||
" All I can say is thank god we are listening to professionals and not a bloke from Bolton, at the end of the day as Madchick says they cannot chance it as lives are at stake. " Let's come back to this in a couple of days and see how your definition of "professional" bears out. | |||
" Let's come back to this in a couple of days and see how your definition of "professional" bears out." No doubt the government will be singing the praises of 'the bloke from Bolton' on the news..... | |||
" No doubt the government will be singing the praises of 'the bloke from Bolton' on the news..... "Doubt it somehow. I am just a sceptic -nothing more, nothing less. But I do have a bit of background knowledge about this. It just amazes me that no-one is really looking behind the sensationalism. Just think about it logically - A large number of major airlines are at real risk of going under and there is a public perception that aircraft cannot fly with even the smallest amounts of volcanic ash in the atmosphere. Knowing that this volcano could be erupting for years to come and we do experience northerly winds in this country - the possibility of flight schedules stop starting for the next god knows how many years is inconceivable. People will just not bother booking aircraft seats in case their flight gets cancelled. This will devastate the European airline industry and it simply will not be allowed to happen. I am just suggesting you look behind the headlines right now, this minute, and you can already see the questions being asked and the science being questioned. The airlines themselves don't want ruined engines and expensive lawsuits against them for negligence but if they are now asking the question about why they can't fly then something must be wrong with the science? Is that not obvious? | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
Must be all that global warming that’s to blame | |||
"Can I ask one simple question? Why would all the planes be grounded without good reason? Can the guy telling us it's all rubbish explain that to me please cos I can't see why myself at all! Z" It's said that the volcanic ash can cause serious problems to the engine if it finds it's way in there. | |||
| |||
"Can I ask one simple question? Why would all the planes be grounded without good reason? Can the guy telling us it's all rubbish explain that to me please cos I can't see why myself at all! Z It's said that the volcanic ash can cause serious problems to the engine if it finds it's way in there. " Yes - that bit I do understand! Seems to be some people that think that the planes are being grounded for no good reason and that's what's intriguing me! Z | |||
they have been so excited, have not seen her for a year... | |||
"Can I ask one simple question? Why would all the planes be grounded without good reason? Can the guy telling us it's all rubbish explain that to me please cos I can't see why myself at all! Z It's said that the volcanic ash can cause serious problems to the engine if it finds it's way in there. Yes - that bit I do understand! Seems to be some people that think that the planes are being grounded for no good reason and that's what's intriguing me! Z" Not at all, its just non urgent flights that have been grounded, just a little confusing being created beacuse if its as bad as they are speculating it should be ALL flights. | |||
| |||
| |||
"Mr Bolton Is talking out of his backside. For a person that claims to have a background in this field, he is amazingly niave. Does he think that the other EU countries rely on our "flawed" Met office Radar???? I'm sure that if there was not a genuine reason for grounding all these flights, then the Governments would be putting pressure on NATS and their EU counterparts to open the airspaces. Does he not realise that not only passenger safety but national and international economies are being severly effected, as well as the airlines themselves. He mentions an eruption in the 70's and everyone continued to operate but no mention of the 747 in the 80's that flew through a cloud and lost all 4 engines !!!!!!!!!! HMMMMMMMM so ash has no effect HUH " Absolutely PZ..... North American airlines work on the NASA Boeing GOES-P system and not the Met Office system, saw it on the news last night. Most European nations take their data from Eumetsat and not the Met office. | |||
| |||
"call from my mum in canada to say that the ash cloud has made it's way there now...planes flew from newfoundland showed damage from the ash...she was due to fly out from montreal tonight to come visit for 4 weeks but now is just waiting to see when she will be able to come...and if her trip can be extended or not from the original dates...hard to explain to the winks why grandma is not arriving tomorrow now and do not know when she will be coming they have been so excited, have not seen her for a year... "aww thats so sad!!
its stories like that one that show just how much disruption is happenin but how it cannot be helped xx | |||
| |||
"When the Concorde went down at Paris it cost insurers an estimated 400 million Euros, so it is understandable why Boeing and Airbus have led the line on refusing Insurance liability as a result of volcanic ash engine damage. I never realised just how many passenger planes can be found in the skies of Europe on any given day at Twelve noon....losing half a dozen at once full of passengers would prove disasterous for insurers." You just have to look at the amount of contrails over Landsend at lunchtime to see how many aircraft fly in our airspace. It looks like the pics you see of the battle of Britain at times. Staggering | |||
.
I too am a little surprised that people think the airlines are being over cautious and should fly. | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"Just popped back here and noted the considerable abuse directed my way. Where to begin countering the many misinformed posts? 1) The ICAO recommendations on which this situation has arisen came about because two airliners flew through the actively discharging plume of a volcano. All engines stopped and there was considerable damage to engines and airframes. An active plume is one where day turns into night the volcanic ash is so dense. In the current situation we are talking about residue from a plume. Look out of the window - day is still day. 2) The Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre for Europe is based at the UK Met Office. It is their computer models which are being questioned by IATA and now almost every airline in Europe. The argument is that a blanket ban is uncalled for, unprecedented and unnecessary without an accurate correlation between observed ash density and the jet engine manufacturers published acceptable tolerences. 3) Does anyone really think that they would close down airspace for no reason - of course not. But placing all of your belief in a computer model which illustrates a danger that test flights have already proven to be non existant is very flawed indeed. Why is the Dornier test aircraft not flying 24 hours sampling the atmosphere instead of spouting off to ther BBC that: "There is lots of muck up there." Solid factual evidence of the density of the ash is required, not a slavish acceptance that a computer model must be correct. 4) Fighter aircraft engines have been affected by the ash because they operate to much finer tolerences than engines in a passenger jet. It is like comparing the engine in a Ferrari to that in a Discovery. It may well be that the low levels of volcanic ash will reduce the life of the engines from 6,000 hours to 5,000, or 4,000 or even half their life but this cost is still far less than the cost of being sat on the ground. I have no idea what the optimum life of an F-18 engine is but it is nothing like the expected life of an Airbus engine by many, many factors and this is all about tolerences. 5) Whilst I have not checked the news this evening, I understood that the ash cloud was due to be in US airspace by this evening - I would be very surprised if the FAA will blanket ground aircraft in the way that European Agencies have done and there will be no plummeting, no pilots wrestling with the contros, no children in danger and in fact just lots and lots of passenger aircraft going about their daily business. Just as it should be in Europe. In summary, the way that this whole event has been handled is a total embarrassment to Europe generally and in particular to the European Departments of Transports (they have had their first discussion about it today!!), The UK NATS, Eurocontrol and the Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre (Met Office). They should hang their heads in shame. " All I can say is thank God you're not in a position of power that would enable you to put so many lives in danger. I can't believe you're so arrogant as not to be able to see the feelings running, even if it is only on here and you're still trying to say it's a farce!!!!!!!!!!!! And that you're still wanting to put ppl's lives at risk | |||
"You have missed your true vocation in life....the governments of Europe and the United States must be queuing up for your services. Lets hope they contact you next time a volcano lets rip...... " At no stage anywhere in this thread have I personally attacked or insulted another poster in the three days that I have added to it. I have posted what I believe to be correct information and it seems now that the BBC is reporting this same and similar information as "news." Lesson to be learned for all - as if we did not know - don't believe everything that you are told on the news and remember that the bigger the bullshit, the more believable it is. Message to those who deemed it appropriate to be belittling or abusive to my posts - I don't hold grudges but it would be nice to have a debate without being insulted and hope that you can get your information from a little deeper than the front page in future. | |||
" All I can say is thank God you're not in a position of power that would enable you to put so many lives in danger. I can't believe you're so arrogant as not to be able to see the feelings running, even if it is only on here and you're still trying to say it's a farce!!!!!!!!!!!! And that you're still wanting to put ppl's lives at risk" Why don't you look a little deeper into the story? It is easy to research now that more facts are coming to life. | |||
| |||
| |||
"What the BBC and SKY are saying is that as the volcanic ash cloud is appearing to thin considerably over the UK, France and Scandanavia then a certain amount of flights will be allowed to fly tommorrow, what they are not saying is that the whole thing was a farce. " Did you read the article by the Chairman of IATA and the coments from Bristish Airways, Lufthansa and KLM? That is the BBC link that I posted. | |||
| |||
"information is power..... i still dont think the government and official bodies are doin this to wind us up to be honest but hey if they look for crash test dummies we got a few who could volunteer cause it sure as shit wont be my sorry ass goin up there to check not even for first class with enrique inglasias to take me to the mile high club would i!! these people know more than me and il take their word for it! xx" No they ar'nt doing this to wind us up but the guy from Bolton is!!! | |||
"No they ar'nt doing this to wind us up but the guy from Bolton is!!! "Read on: Remember this is what I was saying TWO days ago. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/7608722/Volcanic-ash-cloud-Met-Office-blamed-for-unnecessary-six-day-closure.html http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/19/340760/ash-cloud-live-iata-furious-at-theoretical-basis-for-airspace-closures.html | |||
"No they ar'nt doing this to wind us up but the guy from Bolton is!!!
Read on: Remember this is what I was saying TWO days ago.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/7608722/Volcanic-ash-cloud-Met-Office-blamed-for-unnecessary-six-day-closure.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/19/340760/ash-cloud-live-iata-furious-at-theoretical-basis-for-airspace-closures.html
"lol - you were saying what? all i've seen is a lot of copy and paste stuff! Z | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"I'm thinking we should ban flying altogether, let's all start swimming more. " Take your tongue out of your cheek and be serious!!! | |||
| |||
"my understanding is that due to the unusual nature of the eruption there is a lot of silica particles in this dust. When the dust is sucked into the jet engines the silica melts and forms a fine layer of glass in the engine which can cause the them to shut down. Over reaction or not.....quite frankly I would rather these planes were grounded and that everyone was safe until more data and information can be retrieved and studied" *nods* Can you imagine the outcry if they let everyone fly without making sure it was safe to do so and people were killed because of failed engines. | |||
" Over reaction or not.....quite frankly I would rather these planes were grounded and that everyone was safe until more data and information can be retrieved and studied *nods* Can you imagine the outcry if they let everyone fly without making sure it was safe to do so and people were killed because of failed engines. " Banging my head against a brick wall. The problem is that data is not being scientifically retrieved and studied hence the airlines taking matters into their own hands and making test flights and studying the after effects. This is the whole point of the matter. Airlines, pilots and engineers all know that there are always traces of volcanic ash (and other debris) in the atmosphere because there are so many volcanos erupting at any one time somewhere in the world. There are almost always volcano's erupting somewhere in Canada and North America but the entire continent does not get grounded. The aircraft fly around the "active plume" which is very dangerous and you would know about it if you were in it. Fact is nowhere else in the world has an entire continent been grounded not because of a plume - but because of dispersed residue that has theoretically been assessed by the Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre for Europe (The Met Office in London) by means of a computer program and not physical observation. Every day that you fly in an aeroplane the engines are being degraded by volcanic ash, sand and other debris - it happens anyway but the argument here is that the big black cloud of volcanic ash is just quite clearly to the naked eye - not there. There is a residue - yes - but to ground a continent with no measurement of density and concentration and to rely on a theoretical model is madness and a madness that will cost us all much more than a fear of flying. | |||
| |||
" Over reaction or not.....quite frankly I would rather these planes were grounded and that everyone was safe until more data and information can be retrieved and studied *nods* Can you imagine the outcry if they let everyone fly without making sure it was safe to do so and people were killed because of failed engines. Banging my head against a brick wall. The problem is that data is not being scientifically retrieved and studied hence the airlines taking matters into their own hands and making test flights and studying the after effects. This is the whole point of the matter. Airlines, pilots and engineers all know that there are always traces of volcanic ash (and other debris) in the atmosphere because there are so many volcanos erupting at any one time somewhere in the world. There are almost always volcano's erupting somewhere in Canada and North America but the entire continent does not get grounded. The aircraft fly around the "active plume" which is very dangerous and you would know about it if you were in it. Fact is nowhere else in the world has an entire continent been grounded not because of a plume - but because of dispersed residue that has theoretically been assessed by the Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre for Europe (The Met Office in London) by means of a computer program and not physical observation. Every day that you fly in an aeroplane the engines are being degraded by volcanic ash, sand and other debris - it happens anyway but the argument here is that the big black cloud of volcanic ash is just quite clearly to the naked eye - not there. There is a residue - yes - but to ground a continent with no measurement of density and concentration and to rely on a theoretical model is madness and a madness that will cost us all much more than a fear of flying. " Bang away. If we were flying this week I would have cancelled it myself, not for the fear of flying but from the advice of the ex flight engineer who I sleep with every night. PS if you don't want people to be rude to you, you really shouldn't be rude to them. | |||
" PS if you don't want people to be rude to you, you really shouldn't be rude to them." Point me to the offending remark and I will detete it, no problem. Absolutely not my intention to be rude to anyone. | |||
| |||
| |||
"information is power..... i still dont think the government and official bodies are doin this to wind us up to be honest but hey if they look for crash test dummies we got a few who could volunteer cause it sure as shit wont be my sorry ass goin up there to check not even for first class with enrique inglasias to take me to the mile high club would i!! these people know more than me and il take their word for it! xx No they ar'nt doing this to wind us up but the guy from Bolton is!!! "iv solved the mystery!! its a time waster who wanted to use an original excuse for not meetin someone so he has made this up so he/she can have a great excuse!! or its someones mother in law in tenerife on holiday and they dont want her back for a few wks!! xx | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"You really are the cut and paste king of Fab Swingers......" Well, if I give my opinion I get accused of talking out of my arse so what to do? Copy and paste todays news which co-incides with my arse ramblings from a few days ago. Incidentally just noticed that all UK airports to re-open at 10pm but all airlines have to conduct test flights and report any ash damage. Remember - the ash cloud is still here. Stand by for massive lawsuits now at our (taxpayers) expense. | |||
"nope still goin with the british version xx" The Ottawa Citizen is a duplicate of a Telegraph story - I will find it if you want?.... nah, I thought not | |||
| |||
"nope still goin with the british version xx The Ottawa Citizen is a duplicate of a Telegraph story - I will find it if you want?.... nah, I thought not "yeah find it feel free! if cuttin and pastin is your idea of a fun filled nite,you fire away as long as you happy!! maddies point sums it up completely! as does the navy ship bringin personnel and people home so you stick to sifting through the dross that counts as media but my mind is made up!! oh and try wikipedia too its a great source of conspiracy theories too!! xx | |||
| |||
"Anyone watching sky news ? "Yes... But I won't be cutting and pasting from it. I'm thinking of all the boys that can't get home from tour because of this! | |||
"Anyone watching sky news ? "why? you gonna try to cut and paste that as well? sorry! couldn't resist! Z | |||
| |||
| |||
"Anyone watching sky news ?
Yes...
But I won't be cutting and pasting from it.
I'm thinking of all the boys that can't get home from tour because of this!"I was thinking earlier after seeing this thread and all the fuss made how ridiculous a fuss we are making because some people may miss holidays or have to stay there a little longer, when all this time there is a war going on where those people can only hope for a holiday back here at home. We really are a society to be ashamed of aren't we just. | |||
"I work for the Military......... ..........Do you really think that if it was actually safe to fly, we would turn round and say..... ya know what, lets not bother??............. ............Feel sorry for the boys in Afghanistan and everywhere else in the world that can't get home after months on tour because of this........ ...........I personally don't give a shit if someone can post rambling rubbish from websites and newspapers (funnily enough, Canada closed some of it's airspace yesterday) but has no emotional concept of what and who really suffers when something like this happens. I would happily get on a flight to our personnel in the war zone if it meant they could have what they needed. And I would happily take them vital medical equipment personally if it was required. But then I have't lost sight of what IS important in this world. Peoples lives! " I don't disagree with very much you have said at all and you have evidently taken time to make an emotive and considered reply. The only issue I wouldmake with you is that Canadian airspace was closed, but even the most cursory question why would reveal that it was fog that closed the airspace and not ash. In any event this is all over now bar the lawsuits and I have to say that I feel really sorry for people like the original poster and anyone who is a nervous flyer anyway. We have been told for days and days that flying in ash is dangerous and now suddenly it isn't. This crisis appears to have ended because of the very real fear that the government would be sued for £billions unless they changed their blanket risk aversion policy. The rest of Europe stuck two fingers up yesterday at the Met Office model and British Aiways launched 24 flights heading for Heathrow and the goverment caved in and quite rightly we are where we always should have been and EVERY single airline is of the same opinion. Troops should not have been compromised and neither should any passengers. The government in the name of the Dft has proved inept and incapable of dealing quickly with this crisis that has damaged the country. The predicted spin coming from the government is as nauseating as the battle cry to mobilise the Royal Navy to rescue the people who were stranded as a result of the governments inept action. I guess it is now time to go back to lurking and making the occasional post again now that this is all over. My apologies to those who I have wound up in this thread - but sometimes if you believe really strongly about something it just takes over your life and the handling of this crisis really got my goat. | |||
| |||
"You really are the cut and paste king of Fab Swingers...... Well, if I give my opinion I get accused of talking out of my arse so what to do? Copy and paste todays news which co-incides with my arse ramblings from a few days ago. Incidentally just noticed that all UK airports to re-open at 10pm but all airlines have to conduct test flights and report any ash damage. Remember - the ash cloud is still here. Stand by for massive lawsuits now at our (taxpayers) expense." . . It would appear your earlier prediction has been proved correct. The CAA have found a way of flying through volcanic clouds that are still there...surprise, surprise! | |||
"and ginger to boot???....not a lot going for him at all then really "it could be a lot worse he could be scottish (my hubby is ginger lol) | |||
"and ginger to boot???....not a lot going for him at all then really
it could be a lot worse he could be scottish..........." lol | |||
| |||
"I work for the Military......... ..........Do you really think that if it was actually safe to fly, we would turn round and say..... ya know what, lets not bother??............. ............Feel sorry for the boys in Afghanistan and everywhere else in the world that can't get home after months on tour because of this........ ...........I personally don't give a shit if someone can post rambling rubbish from websites and newspapers (funnily enough, Canada closed some of it's airspace yesterday) but has no emotional concept of what and who really suffers when something like this happens. I would happily get on a flight to our personnel in the war zone if it meant they could have what they needed. And I would happily take them vital medical equipment personally if it was required. But then I have't lost sight of what IS important in this world. Peoples lives! I don't disagree with very much you have said at all and you have evidently taken time to make an emotive and considered reply. The only issue I wouldmake with you is that Canadian airspace was closed, but even the most cursory question why would reveal that it was fog that closed the airspace and not ash. In any event this is all over now bar the lawsuits and I have to say that I feel really sorry for people like the original poster and anyone who is a nervous flyer anyway. We have been told for days and days that flying in ash is dangerous and now suddenly it isn't. This crisis appears to have ended because of the very real fear that the government would be sued for £billions unless they changed their blanket risk aversion policy. The rest of Europe stuck two fingers up yesterday at the Met Office model and British Aiways launched 24 flights heading for Heathrow and the goverment caved in and quite rightly we are where we always should have been and EVERY single airline is of the same opinion. Troops should not have been compromised and neither should any passengers. The government in the name of the Dft has proved inept and incapable of dealing quickly with this crisis that has damaged the country. The predicted spin coming from the government is as nauseating as the battle cry to mobilise the Royal Navy to rescue the people who were stranded as a result of the governments inept action. I guess it is now time to go back to lurking and making the occasional post again now that this is all over. My apologies to those who I have wound up in this thread - but sometimes if you believe really strongly about something it just takes over your life and the handling of this crisis really got my goat. " hey i like your posts even if u talk keech at times lol!! im still wary to be honest, but we will see if anythin happens god forbid to a plane or that and fingers crossed there no more eruptions!! especially in july when im offski lol xx | |||
"well hats off for sticking to your original statement mr bolton. i suppose at the end of the day experts have opinions just like the rest of us and who am i to say whats right and whats wrong. but perhaps we shouldnt always believe what we hear and what we read............ ps im flying on friday so if its all goes pear shaped then oopppsssss "Thanks and don't worry - you will be fine. It is courteous of you to say this and I wonder what the response of those who were more insulting will be, if anything. This forum is a micro reflection of our society really isn't it? Unfortunately, it does not say much about tolerance especially if you hold a "different" point of view to what is the norm. Then again I do accept that flying is an emotive subject for many so a good scare story can really rattle us. Did you know that research over 18 months after 9/11 showed that there was a spike of 1,200 more road deaths in the USA because of the unwarrantied fear of flying that the terrorist incident brought about in people. Many people made their own risk assesment to drive instead of fly and as a result 1,200 people lost their lives on the roads of the USA. Kind of makes you think doesn't it. Anyway, the current crisis is over now seemingly - I wonder what will be scaring us all to death next? | |||
| |||
| |||
