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That's not normal behaviour!
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"Society is going to shit mate Police cuts are largely to blame they just not interested any more so people know they can get away with almost anything and don’t give a fuck " I don't just think it's police cuts but the way the system is tied up with red tape and people making lots of money defending criminals resulting in it being so difficult to get a conviction most cases don't even get to court. | |||
"Society is going to shit mate Police cuts are largely to blame they just not interested any more so people know they can get away with almost anything and don’t give a fuck " But the underlying attitude doesn’t come from lack of policing, it comes from individuals own moral compass, the attitude that ‘ I can get away with it without getting caught and being subjected to the consequences, so I’ll do it ‘, merely demonstrates that individuals lack of societal responsibility. Seeking to use external factors to explain individuals lack of responsibility and personal accountability is a large part of the problem. In my opinion. | |||
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"Society is going to shit mate Police cuts are largely to blame they just not interested any more so people know they can get away with almost anything and don’t give a fuck But the underlying attitude doesn’t come from lack of policing, it comes from individuals own moral compass, the attitude that ‘ I can get away with it without getting caught and being subjected to the consequences, so I’ll do it ‘, merely demonstrates that individuals lack of societal responsibility. Seeking to use external factors to explain individuals lack of responsibility and personal accountability is a large part of the problem. In my opinion. " True, it's the seemingly lack of consequences and the anti establishment stance that many have adopted since lockdown. | |||
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"I don’t know the solution. But it’ll have to be multi faceted. As an aside, I was watching telly with my mum yesterday, it was a 1957 documentary on Covent Garden Market. They showed an early morning view of High Street shops. Not one shutter on a shop front. Big glass shopfronts and a light on in the window to show off the display. First thing I noticed!" That's a very valid point,the lack of community spirit and integration with others has created a disconnect. | |||
"Society is going to shit mate Police cuts are largely to blame they just not interested any more so people know they can get away with almost anything and don’t give a fuck But the underlying attitude doesn’t come from lack of policing, it comes from individuals own moral compass, the attitude that ‘ I can get away with it without getting caught and being subjected to the consequences, so I’ll do it ‘, merely demonstrates that individuals lack of societal responsibility. Seeking to use external factors to explain individuals lack of responsibility and personal accountability is a large part of the problem. In my opinion. " True mate that’s a great point | |||
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"This country/society seems to have slipped into a culture of accepting antisocial and aggressive behaviour as normal. Due to cultural changes maybe people always defending the culprit and culture before the victims. Cut's in frontline policing unless the situation benefits the powers that be to score brownie points. What I am referring to are basic observations and personal experience from myself and others plus daily news stories. Shop workers attacked, emergency service staff attacked daily, teacher subject to daily abuse and attacks, train staff,bus staff, social services staff crikey the list is endless and this is not including random attacks on normal law abiding people for no other reason than "they can" This doesn't seem to be an issue that is Financially driven or regional or race, religion or based in big cities only, it's definitely a national crisis across all sections of society regardless of where you live. It seems that law and order is almost a pipe dream now. It's not normal behaviour but sadly it seems that it's become acceptable for people to act pretty much how they want and subject people who are just trying to live to any level of abuse without fear of the consequences. We can all pretend that it's isolated incidents but I'm pretty sure anyone working in the areas of employment I mentioned all have stories and many more, we probably all have personal stories of such issues . Please what can we do what's the solution?" It’s all downhill once you stop focussing on the really minor stuff. Good schools know this and is why they are ultra strict on things like uniform and lateness , the ones that do see far less crime & bigger problems. The standard is set high. When society says it fine for kids to stink of vveed and vape, this is where you end up | |||
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"I think in a world where we expect our human rights to be respected, it naturally makes it more difficult to ‘enforce’ in the way people want or the ways that things have historically been done. But I think it’s important to remember that things have always been bad for some groups in different ways. The issue here is you are trying to have a conversation about control. How do we control people? How do we control their behaviour. I don’t mean it in the sense that people may read it- as brainwashing etc. but things like police are agents of social control. They are enforcers or control. Controlling people isn’t easy and as I say, especially not in a world that values the individual human rights of people. Any solution, in my opinion doesn’t make the world better or safer for *everyone*. We don’t actually know if it even makes it safer for more people. " Why are we (you), looking for others to control behaviour, we are responsible for controlling our own behaviour, we are responsible for our actions towards other people and it’s us, as individuals, who have the obligation to behave in a way that is accepted by the society we live in. When personal standards decline it has a ripple affect, and society standards decline, this becomes a self fuelling decline. It begins with and ends with, personal responsibility. If we want Human Rights they don’t come without Human Responsibilities | |||
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"I think in a world where we expect our human rights to be respected, it naturally makes it more difficult to ‘enforce’ in the way people want or the ways that things have historically been done. But I think it’s important to remember that things have always been bad for some groups in different ways. The issue here is you are trying to have a conversation about control. How do we control people? How do we control their behaviour. I don’t mean it in the sense that people may read it- as brainwashing etc. but things like police are agents of social control. They are enforcers or control. Controlling people isn’t easy and as I say, especially not in a world that values the individual human rights of people. Any solution, in my opinion doesn’t make the world better or safer for *everyone*. We don’t actually know if it even makes it safer for more people. Why are we (you), looking for others to control behaviour, we are responsible for controlling our own behaviour, we are responsible for our actions towards other people and it’s us, as individuals, who have the obligation to behave in a way that is accepted by the society we live in. When personal standards decline it has a ripple affect, and society standards decline, this becomes a self fuelling decline. It begins with and ends with, personal responsibility. If we want Human Rights they don’t come without Human Responsibilities " I am not advocating in any way here for people to be controlled. My personal opinion is that if you want people to behave well and to a certain standard it has to do with a collective buy in to society and its values. I PERSONALLY think it requires a more equal society and I PERSONALLY think it requires a society with less strain from things like capitalism, racism etc. I said we are having a conversation about control because in a modern society, conversations like this end up inevitably about how we can stop people acting in certain ways and it almost always involves conversation about controlling bad behaviour and how we punish those that exhibit it. So in the world that we currently live in, do I see things getting to what people want? No. Unless you want, as has been suggested, more control over people, more ‘law and order’ and things like that. Like I said, the idea we act in accordance to the standards of behaviour of society requires us to believe in society. I think I read something about a Durkheim theory on this but yeah. | |||
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"Also. For goodness sake make housing affordable!" God you’re so hot. | |||
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"I think in a world where we expect our human rights to be respected, it naturally makes it more difficult to ‘enforce’ in the way people want or the ways that things have historically been done. But I think it’s important to remember that things have always been bad for some groups in different ways. The issue here is you are trying to have a conversation about control. How do we control people? How do we control their behaviour. I don’t mean it in the sense that people may read it- as brainwashing etc. but things like police are agents of social control. They are enforcers or control. Controlling people isn’t easy and as I say, especially not in a world that values the individual human rights of people. Any solution, in my opinion doesn’t make the world better or safer for *everyone*. We don’t actually know if it even makes it safer for more people. Why are we (you), looking for others to control behaviour, we are responsible for controlling our own behaviour, we are responsible for our actions towards other people and it’s us, as individuals, who have the obligation to behave in a way that is accepted by the society we live in. When personal standards decline it has a ripple affect, and society standards decline, this becomes a self fuelling decline. It begins with and ends with, personal responsibility. If we want Human Rights they don’t come without Human Responsibilities I am not advocating in any way here for people to be controlled. My personal opinion is that if you want people to behave well and to a certain standard it has to do with a collective buy in to society and its values. I PERSONALLY think it requires a more equal society and I PERSONALLY think it requires a society with less strain from things like capitalism, racism etc. I said we are having a conversation about control because in a modern society, conversations like this end up inevitably about how we can stop people acting in certain ways and it almost always involves conversation about controlling bad behaviour and how we punish those that exhibit it. So in the world that we currently live in, do I see things getting to what people want? No. Unless you want, as has been suggested, more control over people, more ‘law and order’ and things like that. Like I said, the idea we act in accordance to the standards of behaviour of society requires us to believe in society. I think I read something about a Durkheim theory on this but yeah. " If I read you wrong on the ‘control’ aspect MrPickle, that’s me at fault and should read more carefully. I do still maintain the overall view that individuals are accountable and the onus is us as individuals. It is the attitudes and actions of individuals that determines the path a society takes. Once we think accountability rests with others it opens the way for people to ‘get away with’ whatever they feel they can. Without wanting to get this thread moved to another place, I think a glaring example of this can be found in the recent and current politics of this country. | |||
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"Since covid and lock down society seems to be permanently angry nowadays,things have definitely deteriorated since then." Also noticed this since the lockdowns. Society looked like it was going to shit anyway for a number of reasons but there seems to have been a rapid acceleration since the lockdowns. Did this period of time in isolation drive people mad? | |||
"Every generation seems to believe that the country is going to the dogs." You're right. My dad firmly believes the internet is making people idiots ... | |||
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"Everywhere seems to have security guards now, even the train station Greggs outlet I noticed the other day. I think they're less to do with worrying someone might nick a pasty, than ensuring the staff don't get abused. Some people just seem to think they can talk to anyone like absolute shit, and it's their right to do so "It’s such a shame that Sainsbury’s till staff now have to wear body cams. How has that become necessary?! | |||
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"Every generation seems to believe that the country is going to the dogs. You're right. My dad firmly believes the internet is making people idiots ..." Certain aspects of it are making alot of people idiots. On the other side, it makes alot of people the opposite. Perhaps as a result, the gap between idiots and the rest of us is widening and they now stand out more... | |||
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"Some people just seem to think they can talk to anyone like absolute shit, and it's their right to do so "It absolutely IS their right. They just shouldn't be surprised when someone slaps the taste out of their mouth. | |||
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"Everywhere seems to have security guards now, even the train station Greggs outlet I noticed the other day. I think they're less to do with worrying someone might nick a pasty, than ensuring the staff don't get abused. Some people just seem to think they can talk to anyone like absolute shit, and it's their right to do so
It’s such a shame that Sainsbury’s till staff now have to wear body cams. How has that become necessary?!"Especially when Bill Gates is already tracking everyone.  | |||
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"I think social media has something to do with it. As that great philosopher, Mike Tyson observed 'social media means people can disrespect others without getting punched in the face'. Perhaps this sense of entitlement gets carried over to the outside world. " This is true and sad thing is punching someone in the face is one of the few things the police actually bother to come out for these days regardless of what that person did to deserve it | |||
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"I think in a world where we expect our human rights to be respected, it naturally makes it more difficult to ‘enforce’ in the way people want or the ways that things have historically been done. But I think it’s important to remember that things have always been bad for some groups in different ways. The issue here is you are trying to have a conversation about control. How do we control people? How do we control their behaviour. I don’t mean it in the sense that people may read it- as brainwashing etc. but things like police are agents of social control. They are enforcers or control. Controlling people isn’t easy and as I say, especially not in a world that values the individual human rights of people. Any solution, in my opinion doesn’t make the world better or safer for *everyone*. We don’t actually know if it even makes it safer for more people. Why are we (you), looking for others to control behaviour, we are responsible for controlling our own behaviour, we are responsible for our actions towards other people and it’s us, as individuals, who have the obligation to behave in a way that is accepted by the society we live in. When personal standards decline it has a ripple affect, and society standards decline, this becomes a self fuelling decline. It begins with and ends with, personal responsibility. If we want Human Rights they don’t come without Human Responsibilities I am not advocating in any way here for people to be controlled. My personal opinion is that if you want people to behave well and to a certain standard it has to do with a collective buy in to society and its values. I PERSONALLY think it requires a more equal society and I PERSONALLY think it requires a society with less strain from things like capitalism, racism etc. I said we are having a conversation about control because in a modern society, conversations like this end up inevitably about how we can stop people acting in certain ways and it almost always involves conversation about controlling bad behaviour and how we punish those that exhibit it. So in the world that we currently live in, do I see things getting to what people want? No. Unless you want, as has been suggested, more control over people, more ‘law and order’ and things like that. Like I said, the idea we act in accordance to the standards of behaviour of society requires us to believe in society. I think I read something about a Durkheim theory on this but yeah. If I read you wrong on the ‘control’ aspect MrPickle, that’s me at fault and should read more carefully. I do still maintain the overall view that individuals are accountable and the onus is us as individuals. It is the attitudes and actions of individuals that determines the path a society takes. Once we think accountability rests with others it opens the way for people to ‘get away with’ whatever they feel they can. Without wanting to get this thread moved to another place, I think a glaring example of this can be found in the recent and current politics of this country. " Without strong leadership you get the lowest common denominator approach. Dubai isn’t clean and crime free because of individuals , we come from the highest crime and deprivation areas of UK,, Lagos , Doula, Manilla and it’s not fear of the fines either, most are affordable. Having a dirty car, selfish lane change ,touching someone’s phone, eating or drinking on public transport, smoking in a non designated area, drinking alcohol in a public area, people are wiling to give up their rights for a zero crime , clean & safe place. But you have to start by laying out the rules/expectations and enforcing them | |||
"I think in a world where we expect our human rights to be respected, it naturally makes it more difficult to ‘enforce’ in the way people want or the ways that things have historically been done. But I think it’s important to remember that things have always been bad for some groups in different ways. The issue here is you are trying to have a conversation about control. How do we control people? How do we control their behaviour. I don’t mean it in the sense that people may read it- as brainwashing etc. but things like police are agents of social control. They are enforcers or control. Controlling people isn’t easy and as I say, especially not in a world that values the individual human rights of people. Any solution, in my opinion doesn’t make the world better or safer for *everyone*. We don’t actually know if it even makes it safer for more people. Why are we (you), looking for others to control behaviour, we are responsible for controlling our own behaviour, we are responsible for our actions towards other people and it’s us, as individuals, who have the obligation to behave in a way that is accepted by the society we live in. When personal standards decline it has a ripple affect, and society standards decline, this becomes a self fuelling decline. It begins with and ends with, personal responsibility. If we want Human Rights they don’t come without Human Responsibilities I am not advocating in any way here for people to be controlled. My personal opinion is that if you want people to behave well and to a certain standard it has to do with a collective buy in to society and its values. I PERSONALLY think it requires a more equal society and I PERSONALLY think it requires a society with less strain from things like capitalism, racism etc. I said we are having a conversation about control because in a modern society, conversations like this end up inevitably about how we can stop people acting in certain ways and it almost always involves conversation about controlling bad behaviour and how we punish those that exhibit it. So in the world that we currently live in, do I see things getting to what people want? No. Unless you want, as has been suggested, more control over people, more ‘law and order’ and things like that. Like I said, the idea we act in accordance to the standards of behaviour of society requires us to believe in society. I think I read something about a Durkheim theory on this but yeah. If I read you wrong on the ‘control’ aspect MrPickle, that’s me at fault and should read more carefully. I do still maintain the overall view that individuals are accountable and the onus is us as individuals. It is the attitudes and actions of individuals that determines the path a society takes. Once we think accountability rests with others it opens the way for people to ‘get away with’ whatever they feel they can. Without wanting to get this thread moved to another place, I think a glaring example of this can be found in the recent and current politics of this country. Without strong leadership you get the lowest common denominator approach. Dubai isn’t clean and crime free because of individuals , we come from the highest crime and deprivation areas of UK,, Lagos , Doula, Manilla and it’s not fear of the fines either, most are affordable. Having a dirty car, selfish lane change ,touching someone’s phone, eating or drinking on public transport, smoking in a non designated area, drinking alcohol in a public area, people are wiling to give up their rights for a zero crime , clean & safe place. But you have to start by laying out the rules/expectations and enforcing them " I agree but the sense of entitlement that's rife in this country I doubt anyone has the ball's or the backing to make some very tough decisions. Politics seems to be driven by the online social media platforms today and piss of the softly softly brigade and it's never going to happen. There HAS to be a deterrent in place to deter antisocial and criminal behaviour otherwise it's just anarchy. | |||
"I think in a world where we expect our human rights to be respected, it naturally makes it more difficult to ‘enforce’ in the way people want or the ways that things have historically been done. But I think it’s important to remember that things have always been bad for some groups in different ways. The issue here is you are trying to have a conversation about control. How do we control people? How do we control their behaviour. I don’t mean it in the sense that people may read it- as brainwashing etc. but things like police are agents of social control. They are enforcers or control. Controlling people isn’t easy and as I say, especially not in a world that values the individual human rights of people. Any solution, in my opinion doesn’t make the world better or safer for *everyone*. We don’t actually know if it even makes it safer for more people. Why are we (you), looking for others to control behaviour, we are responsible for controlling our own behaviour, we are responsible for our actions towards other people and it’s us, as individuals, who have the obligation to behave in a way that is accepted by the society we live in. When personal standards decline it has a ripple affect, and society standards decline, this becomes a self fuelling decline. It begins with and ends with, personal responsibility. If we want Human Rights they don’t come without Human Responsibilities I am not advocating in any way here for people to be controlled. My personal opinion is that if you want people to behave well and to a certain standard it has to do with a collective buy in to society and its values. I PERSONALLY think it requires a more equal society and I PERSONALLY think it requires a society with less strain from things like capitalism, racism etc. I said we are having a conversation about control because in a modern society, conversations like this end up inevitably about how we can stop people acting in certain ways and it almost always involves conversation about controlling bad behaviour and how we punish those that exhibit it. So in the world that we currently live in, do I see things getting to what people want? No. Unless you want, as has been suggested, more control over people, more ‘law and order’ and things like that. Like I said, the idea we act in accordance to the standards of behaviour of society requires us to believe in society. I think I read something about a Durkheim theory on this but yeah. If I read you wrong on the ‘control’ aspect MrPickle, that’s me at fault and should read more carefully. I do still maintain the overall view that individuals are accountable and the onus is us as individuals. It is the attitudes and actions of individuals that determines the path a society takes. Once we think accountability rests with others it opens the way for people to ‘get away with’ whatever they feel they can. Without wanting to get this thread moved to another place, I think a glaring example of this can be found in the recent and current politics of this country. Without strong leadership you get the lowest common denominator approach. Dubai isn’t clean and crime free because of individuals , we come from the highest crime and deprivation areas of UK,, Lagos , Doula, Manilla and it’s not fear of the fines either, most are affordable. Having a dirty car, selfish lane change ,touching someone’s phone, eating or drinking on public transport, smoking in a non designated area, drinking alcohol in a public area, people are wiling to give up their rights for a zero crime , clean & safe place. But you have to start by laying out the rules/expectations and enforcing them I agree but the sense of entitlement that's rife in this country I doubt anyone has the ball's or the backing to make some very tough decisions. Politics seems to be driven by the online social media platforms today and piss of the softly softly brigade and it's never going to happen. There HAS to be a deterrent in place to deter antisocial and criminal behaviour otherwise it's just anarchy. " Anarchy in practice is actually way more peaceful and harmonious.  | |||
"I think in a world where we expect our human rights to be respected, it naturally makes it more difficult to ‘enforce’ in the way people want or the ways that things have historically been done. But I think it’s important to remember that things have always been bad for some groups in different ways. The issue here is you are trying to have a conversation about control. How do we control people? How do we control their behaviour. I don’t mean it in the sense that people may read it- as brainwashing etc. but things like police are agents of social control. They are enforcers or control. Controlling people isn’t easy and as I say, especially not in a world that values the individual human rights of people. Any solution, in my opinion doesn’t make the world better or safer for *everyone*. We don’t actually know if it even makes it safer for more people. Why are we (you), looking for others to control behaviour, we are responsible for controlling our own behaviour, we are responsible for our actions towards other people and it’s us, as individuals, who have the obligation to behave in a way that is accepted by the society we live in. When personal standards decline it has a ripple affect, and society standards decline, this becomes a self fuelling decline. It begins with and ends with, personal responsibility. If we want Human Rights they don’t come without Human Responsibilities I am not advocating in any way here for people to be controlled. My personal opinion is that if you want people to behave well and to a certain standard it has to do with a collective buy in to society and its values. I PERSONALLY think it requires a more equal society and I PERSONALLY think it requires a society with less strain from things like capitalism, racism etc. I said we are having a conversation about control because in a modern society, conversations like this end up inevitably about how we can stop people acting in certain ways and it almost always involves conversation about controlling bad behaviour and how we punish those that exhibit it. So in the world that we currently live in, do I see things getting to what people want? No. Unless you want, as has been suggested, more control over people, more ‘law and order’ and things like that. Like I said, the idea we act in accordance to the standards of behaviour of society requires us to believe in society. I think I read something about a Durkheim theory on this but yeah. If I read you wrong on the ‘control’ aspect MrPickle, that’s me at fault and should read more carefully. I do still maintain the overall view that individuals are accountable and the onus is us as individuals. It is the attitudes and actions of individuals that determines the path a society takes. Once we think accountability rests with others it opens the way for people to ‘get away with’ whatever they feel they can. Without wanting to get this thread moved to another place, I think a glaring example of this can be found in the recent and current politics of this country. Without strong leadership you get the lowest common denominator approach. Dubai isn’t clean and crime free because of individuals , we come from the highest crime and deprivation areas of UK,, Lagos , Doula, Manilla and it’s not fear of the fines either, most are affordable. Having a dirty car, selfish lane change ,touching someone’s phone, eating or drinking on public transport, smoking in a non designated area, drinking alcohol in a public area, people are wiling to give up their rights for a zero crime , clean & safe place. But you have to start by laying out the rules/expectations and enforcing them I agree but the sense of entitlement that's rife in this country I doubt anyone has the ball's or the backing to make some very tough decisions. Politics seems to be driven by the online social media platforms today and piss of the softly softly brigade and it's never going to happen. There HAS to be a deterrent in place to deter antisocial and criminal behaviour otherwise it's just anarchy. Anarchy in practice is actually way more peaceful and harmonious. "I'm sorry but that's absolute nonsense. | |||
"I think in a world where we expect our human rights to be respected, it naturally makes it more difficult to ‘enforce’ in the way people want or the ways that things have historically been done. But I think it’s important to remember that things have always been bad for some groups in different ways. The issue here is you are trying to have a conversation about control. How do we control people? How do we control their behaviour. I don’t mean it in the sense that people may read it- as brainwashing etc. but things like police are agents of social control. They are enforcers or control. Controlling people isn’t easy and as I say, especially not in a world that values the individual human rights of people. Any solution, in my opinion doesn’t make the world better or safer for *everyone*. We don’t actually know if it even makes it safer for more people. Why are we (you), looking for others to control behaviour, we are responsible for controlling our own behaviour, we are responsible for our actions towards other people and it’s us, as individuals, who have the obligation to behave in a way that is accepted by the society we live in. When personal standards decline it has a ripple affect, and society standards decline, this becomes a self fuelling decline. It begins with and ends with, personal responsibility. If we want Human Rights they don’t come without Human Responsibilities I am not advocating in any way here for people to be controlled. My personal opinion is that if you want people to behave well and to a certain standard it has to do with a collective buy in to society and its values. I PERSONALLY think it requires a more equal society and I PERSONALLY think it requires a society with less strain from things like capitalism, racism etc. I said we are having a conversation about control because in a modern society, conversations like this end up inevitably about how we can stop people acting in certain ways and it almost always involves conversation about controlling bad behaviour and how we punish those that exhibit it. So in the world that we currently live in, do I see things getting to what people want? No. Unless you want, as has been suggested, more control over people, more ‘law and order’ and things like that. Like I said, the idea we act in accordance to the standards of behaviour of society requires us to believe in society. I think I read something about a Durkheim theory on this but yeah. If I read you wrong on the ‘control’ aspect MrPickle, that’s me at fault and should read more carefully. I do still maintain the overall view that individuals are accountable and the onus is us as individuals. It is the attitudes and actions of individuals that determines the path a society takes. Once we think accountability rests with others it opens the way for people to ‘get away with’ whatever they feel they can. Without wanting to get this thread moved to another place, I think a glaring example of this can be found in the recent and current politics of this country. Without strong leadership you get the lowest common denominator approach. Dubai isn’t clean and crime free because of individuals , we come from the highest crime and deprivation areas of UK,, Lagos , Doula, Manilla and it’s not fear of the fines either, most are affordable. Having a dirty car, selfish lane change ,touching someone’s phone, eating or drinking on public transport, smoking in a non designated area, drinking alcohol in a public area, people are wiling to give up their rights for a zero crime , clean & safe place. But you have to start by laying out the rules/expectations and enforcing them I agree but the sense of entitlement that's rife in this country I doubt anyone has the ball's or the backing to make some very tough decisions. Politics seems to be driven by the online social media platforms today and piss of the softly softly brigade and it's never going to happen. There HAS to be a deterrent in place to deter antisocial and criminal behaviour otherwise it's just anarchy. Anarchy in practice is actually way more peaceful and harmonious.
I'm sorry but that's absolute nonsense.
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"Society seems to have forgotten the simple theory of treat others how you wish them to treat you. It's so simple. " That logic doesn't quite work. I wish for strangers in the street to piss on me for instance. I'd probably be arrested if I treated others how I would like to be treated. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe everybody is taking the logic of that idea too literally. | |||
