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Menopause in the workplace
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By *stella OP Woman 40 weeks ago
London |
Reading an article that’s got me nodding.
Employers are being encouraged to see menopause and respond appropriately to issues raised as a consequence of it or potentially face disability discrimination.
The writer goes on to say “This is not progress. Encouraging firms to see menopause as a disability does not help women. It's part of life for 51 pct of the population and it should not be beyond the wit of (wo)man to design a normal working life that takes account of it.
The fact that so many workplaces don't work for menopausal women is the result of sex discrimination - not a sign of disability discrimination. And we don't solve it by talking about 'inclusion', either, which reinforces the idea of a norm that has to be widened to admit others. We must go back to design basics.
(And if we do all that we might also get to a better place to stop seeing disability as a physical impairment and understand it better as a function of society's limited understanding of difference.)”
Wholeheartedly agree. I do a lot of disability work at my organisation but actually agree m this case it is utilising what we have (or shoehorning menopause into existing concepts of reasonable adjustments) to get support for women rather than building the right outlook in the first instance.
What are your thoughts? |
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I think some women do suffer badly enough for it to become a disability. Some sail through it.
Brain fog definitely impacted my work but I got very little sympathy. Basically told to just do better. I am much better now i am on HRT. |
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By *stella OP Woman 40 weeks ago
London |
"I think some women do suffer badly enough for it to become a disability. Some sail through it.
Brain fog definitely impacted my work but I got very little sympathy. Basically told to just do better. I am much better now i am on HRT."
For sure, not negating where there is a disability as a result (and the correct support being provided) but also just recognising that it’s a thing in itself (not very articulate, sorry!) and that there should be a policy/support normalising this even when it doesn’t meet threshold for disability. If that makes sense? |
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Menopause can be a serious illness. It can be absolutely debilitating.
It’s a very naive point of view to think that understanding that men and women’s bodies are different is somehow not progress.
Mind you, we have a lovely sounding policy at work about time off and work from home days whenever required for women going through the menopause. But the culture in my team is such that I’d never ask, even though I probably should some days. |
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By *stella OP Woman 40 weeks ago
London |
"Menopause can be a serious illness. It can be absolutely debilitating.
It’s a very naive point of view to think that understanding that men and women’s bodies are different is somehow not progress.
Mind you, we have a lovely sounding policy at work about time off and work from home days whenever required for women going through the menopause. But the culture in my team is such that I’d never ask, even though I probably should some days."
It might be my hangover, but I’m not following your second paragraph. Apologies. |
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"Menopause can be a serious illness. It can be absolutely debilitating.
It’s a very naive point of view to think that understanding that men and women’s bodies are different is somehow not progress.
Mind you, we have a lovely sounding policy at work about time off and work from home days whenever required for women going through the menopause. But the culture in my team is such that I’d never ask, even though I probably should some days.
It might be my hangover, but I’m not following your second paragraph. Apologies. "
The original writer says that seeing menopause as a disability is not progress. Of course it’s progress. Disability discrimination is about more than just using a wheelchair or something. It’s about all manner of injuries and illnesses and not being discriminated against because of them.
Lots of sex-specific illnesses and injuries would be covered under disability discrimination legislation. This is the right place to contest things legally when required. |
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I'm going to sit on this uncomfortable fence over here.
On the one hand, it is disabling for some people. On the other hand, it is something that is about sexual characteristics.
Saying but "oh no it's not disability" rubs me the wrong way... like saying that disability is shameful or something to be avoided.
I don't know. I hope people get the help they need. |
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We have a women's support group at work and office temperature is a constant problem... I guess most architects are men...?!
It is good we feel able to raise women specific issues without fear of retribution. In fact, there is a campaign to educate our menfolk about these issues as men also need to understand women at work and at home... |
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By *stella OP Woman 40 weeks ago
London |
"Menopause can be a serious illness. It can be absolutely debilitating.
It’s a very naive point of view to think that understanding that men and women’s bodies are different is somehow not progress.
Mind you, we have a lovely sounding policy at work about time off and work from home days whenever required for women going through the menopause. But the culture in my team is such that I’d never ask, even though I probably should some days.
It might be my hangover, but I’m not following your second paragraph. Apologies.
The original writer says that seeing menopause as a disability is not progress. Of course it’s progress. Disability discrimination is about more than just using a wheelchair or something. It’s about all manner of injuries and illnesses and not being discriminated against because of them.
Lots of sex-specific illnesses and injuries would be covered under disability discrimination legislation. This is the right place to contest things legally when required."
I understand you now. And yes it’s progress in that context. The article was going further saying to only have this for those that meet threshold of disability was not enough (progress) as it’s not just about the potential for disability discrimination, and many won’t meet that threshold but it’s for all who are going through it a form of sex discrimination to not have support in similar ways. So for me (or how I interpreted it) perhaps progress is not quite the right word. |
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By *stella OP Woman 40 weeks ago
London |
"I'm going to sit on this uncomfortable fence over here.
On the one hand, it is disabling for some people. On the other hand, it is something that is about sexual characteristics.
Saying but "oh no it's not disability" rubs me the wrong way... like saying that disability is shameful or something to be avoided.
I don't know. I hope people get the help they need. "
I think only quoting that section has done the writer an injustice! Apologies. They’re not saying it doesn’t meet disability threshold for some. My bad! |
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"I'm going to sit on this uncomfortable fence over here.
On the one hand, it is disabling for some people. On the other hand, it is something that is about sexual characteristics.
Saying but "oh no it's not disability" rubs me the wrong way... like saying that disability is shameful or something to be avoided.
I don't know. I hope people get the help they need.
I think only quoting that section has done the writer an injustice! Apologies. They’re not saying it doesn’t meet disability threshold for some. My bad! "
Fair. I read in "oh no, you don't want to be disabled, that's a bad thing" and as someone with some intersection with diversity and inclusion, my skin started to crawl. |
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By *stella OP Woman 40 weeks ago
London |
"I'm going to sit on this uncomfortable fence over here.
On the one hand, it is disabling for some people. On the other hand, it is something that is about sexual characteristics.
Saying but "oh no it's not disability" rubs me the wrong way... like saying that disability is shameful or something to be avoided.
I don't know. I hope people get the help they need.
I think only quoting that section has done the writer an injustice! Apologies. They’re not saying it doesn’t meet disability threshold for some. My bad!
Fair. I read in "oh no, you don't want to be disabled, that's a bad thing" and as someone with some intersection with diversity and inclusion, my skin started to crawl."
Mine would have too! Same here. On re reading my OP, I’ve inferred something there that is the antithesis of what I intended! |
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By *stella OP Woman 40 weeks ago
London |
"I think I hear you, OP. Like saying the system should be designed differently in the first place rather than tacking on additional supports for those who need them?"
Yes, or only having legislation (disability) for those meeting the threshold and not for the group that don’t, who still may be having arising problems. |
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The definition of disability under the Equality Act is a "physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long term negative effect on the ability to do normal daily activities".
Some medical conditions are automatically classified as disabilities but many are not. Most people involved with the EA define long term as meaning for a year or more and many businesses successfully avoid making reasonable adjustments for conditions lasting less than one year.
Substantial is subjective but is supposed to encompass all areas of live, not just work specific activities. E.g. ability to travel, ability to get oneself dressed, ability to make and consume food etc.
Menopause symptoms can definitely have a long term and substantial impact on women, that is indisputable but I don't know if it stops people from doing their regular daily activities in the same way as physical or mental impairment. I speak as someone who is both physically disabled and has been in and out of a medically induced menopause for a year (I KNOW my experience is just my own).
I think there should be a separate definition within the Equality Act to cover menopause and menstrual related issues, under the sex discrimination section. I do think disability is a separate situation but I don't dispute that menopause CAN make life incredibly difficult for lots of women.
There are other things to consider - many women experiencing menopause are also doing unpaid care for children and/or older parents and they are pulled in all directions, whilst also doing unpaid work that often social care would otherwise pick up. How much of the retention of women age 45-55 (ish) in the workplace is also due to their family related responsibilities, in addition to debilitating menopause symptoms?
I might have waffled, sorry. |
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By *stella OP Woman 40 weeks ago
London |
"The definition of disability under the Equality Act is a "physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long term negative effect on the ability to do normal daily activities".
Some medical conditions are automatically classified as disabilities but many are not. Most people involved with the EA define long term as meaning for a year or more and many businesses successfully avoid making reasonable adjustments for conditions lasting less than one year.
Substantial is subjective but is supposed to encompass all areas of live, not just work specific activities. E.g. ability to travel, ability to get oneself dressed, ability to make and consume food etc.
Menopause symptoms can definitely have a long term and substantial impact on women, that is indisputable but I don't know if it stops people from doing their regular daily activities in the same way as physical or mental impairment. I speak as someone who is both physically disabled and has been in and out of a medically induced menopause for a year (I KNOW my experience is just my own).
I think there should be a separate definition within the Equality Act to cover menopause and menstrual related issues, under the sex discrimination section. I do think disability is a separate situation but I don't dispute that menopause CAN make life incredibly difficult for lots of women.
There are other things to consider - many women experiencing menopause are also doing unpaid care for children and/or older parents and they are pulled in all directions, whilst also doing unpaid work that often social care would otherwise pick up. How much of the retention of women age 45-55 (ish) in the workplace is also due to their family related responsibilities, in addition to debilitating menopause symptoms?
I might have waffled, sorry. "
You haven’t waffled. You spoke sense!  |
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"We have a women's support group at work and office temperature is a constant problem... I guess most architects are men...?!
It is good we feel able to raise women specific issues without fear of retribution. In fact, there is a campaign to educate our menfolk about these issues as men also need to understand women at work and at home..."
Temperature is a huge issue. We have a climate control thing in the room I'm based in and if I leave, it gets cranked up to about 25°C. Put on a jumper!! Lots of us can't remove any more clothing in the workplace without being summarily dismissed.
I was given a USB fan but it's bulky and I struggle to take it around the building, e.g. to meetings because it has to fit in the bag on the back of my wheelchair, along with my lunchbox, my laptop and other things. I just suffer through meetings in excruciatingly hot rooms but it's horrible. |
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By *stella OP Woman 40 weeks ago
London |
"Don’t feel well placed to comment but this is interesting. I think I would agree that it’s sex discrimination. "
Until it meets the threshold for disability and then that legislation can provide other support too. But as Mrs KC much more articulately stated there should be provision for it in its own right. Which was what I was badly attempting to say!
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About time too.
When I moved from working on a ward environment and career changed into an engineering environment I was stunned at how different it was.
Things I’d taken for granted were non existent and adjusting to some of the male-centric workplace attitudes and openly voiced opinions took quite a bit of time.
One thing I found was that the environment was very dismissive of what was not seen as obvious illness or pain, so when a female member of the team needed to just take herself away and rest or just needed time away the blokes would see it as just skiving- but it was ok for them to have a fag break every hour for ten minutes.  |
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I think it's symptomatic of the fact we're belatedly retrofitting the traditional world of work with accommodations for women. It's better than ignoring it, but it's a bit of a blunt instrument suggesting punishment for doing it wrong rather than adjusting the system to make it work from the start. |
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By *stella OP Woman 40 weeks ago
London |
"I think it's symptomatic of the fact we're belatedly retrofitting the traditional world of work with accommodations for women. It's better than ignoring it, but it's a bit of a blunt instrument suggesting punishment for doing it wrong rather than adjusting the system to make it work from the start. "
True say. |
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"I think it's symptomatic of the fact we're belatedly retrofitting the traditional world of work with accommodations for women. It's better than ignoring it, but it's a bit of a blunt instrument suggesting punishment for doing it wrong rather than adjusting the system to make it work from the start. "
Say it louder for people at the back! |
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"I think it's symptomatic of the fact we're belatedly retrofitting the traditional world of work with accommodations for women. It's better than ignoring it, but it's a bit of a blunt instrument suggesting punishment for doing it wrong rather than adjusting the system to make it work from the start.
Say it louder for people at the back!"
I'm getting it on a t-shirt.
A really big t-shirt  |
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"I think it's symptomatic of the fact we're belatedly retrofitting the traditional world of work with accommodations for women. It's better than ignoring it, but it's a bit of a blunt instrument suggesting punishment for doing it wrong rather than adjusting the system to make it work from the start.
Say it louder for people at the back!
I'm getting it on a t-shirt.
A really big t-shirt "
Some of the discussions I'm vaguely involved in at the moment are around the "back to the office" push and how bad it is for various groups, including caregivers.
There's quite a lot of "imagine if we have a workplace that works for everyone, not just a stereotypical dude" going on. |
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"Reading an article that’s got me nodding.
Employers are being encouraged to see menopause and respond appropriately to issues raised as a consequence of it or potentially face disability discrimination.
The writer goes on to say “This is not progress. Encouraging firms to see menopause as a disability does not help women. It's part of life for 51 pct of the population and it should not be beyond the wit of (wo)man to design a normal working life that takes account of it.
The fact that so many workplaces don't work for menopausal women is the result of sex discrimination - not a sign of disability discrimination. And we don't solve it by talking about 'inclusion', either, which reinforces the idea of a norm that has to be widened to admit others. We must go back to design basics.
(And if we do all that we might also get to a better place to stop seeing disability as a physical impairment and understand it better as a function of society's limited understanding of difference.)”
Wholeheartedly agree. I do a lot of disability work at my organisation but actually agree m this case it is utilising what we have (or shoehorning menopause into existing concepts of reasonable adjustments) to get support for women rather than building the right outlook in the first instance.
What are your thoughts?"
I m in the thick of it...our menopause champion talks about wanting 1 day a month off work to help, and in the next breath talks about equal pay...
Personally I d have liked more support pre hysterectomy when I was really struggling...  |
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By (user no longer on site) 40 weeks ago
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It’s a biological effect of being born a woman. It should be normalised not labelled a disability.
Many will argue that menopause is a natural process, and we should just let it take its course and allow our bodies to do what they're supposed to do. My response is that yes, the process is natural, but it doesn't mean that it is not harmful. We should normalise addressing this natural process such as making HRT accessible to all and not just those who can afford it.
In the workplace, normalising this change should be a thing too, but how that should look isn’t easy. |
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About bloody time ?? Seeing women make up a large part of the work force and even the general population ?? and so pay tax ? Mrs4 went through a totally horrific spell with early menopause and due to her age it was deemed she couldn't be suffering from it as the test said no ! but there are 2 tests as mr4 found out cue her switching gp's to get the 2nd test ( more expensive) and lo and behold she was having early menopause ? but great to see the law changing and better late than never though ! and luckily she has got a good employer and so was allowed to wear stuff that kept her cool and was allowed to take comfort breaks ??  |
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I think we should be looking at how to make employment as flexible as possible across the board, for lots of reasons. Reading the outcome of the 4-day week trials seems to bear it out. The popularity of hybrid and remote working options is clear. Yes, it's not possible in all jobs, but then not all jobs are the same. But a level of flexibility is possible in any industry, it just requires a bit of planning and imagination about your workforce planning. Who knows, you might expand and enhance your workforce by being more flexible. It would improve the situation for parents, people with care responsibilities, disabled people, menopausal people, people who have long standing health conditions short of disability, etc. The same people who whinge about flexibility and say "well don't do that job, then" when people raise the lack of flexibility, are the same people up in arms about why so many people leave the workforce and become dependent on benefits!!
The amount of unpaid care that people perform, saving everyone shedloads of tax money is substantial and it is incumbent on everyone in the economy to allow people to work and also exist outside of work. Work is not the be all and end of life. |
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"I think we should be looking at how to make employment as flexible as possible across the board, for lots of reasons. Reading the outcome of the 4-day week trials seems to bear it out. The popularity of hybrid and remote working options is clear. Yes, it's not possible in all jobs, but then not all jobs are the same. But a level of flexibility is possible in any industry, it just requires a bit of planning and imagination about your workforce planning. Who knows, you might expand and enhance your workforce by being more flexible. It would improve the situation for parents, people with care responsibilities, disabled people, menopausal people, people who have long standing health conditions short of disability, etc. The same people who whinge about flexibility and say "well don't do that job, then" when people raise the lack of flexibility, are the same people up in arms about why so many people leave the workforce and become dependent on benefits!!
The amount of unpaid care that people perform, saving everyone shedloads of tax money is substantial and it is incumbent on everyone in the economy to allow people to work and also exist outside of work. Work is not the be all and end of life. "
Preach! |
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"I think we should be looking at how to make employment as flexible as possible across the board, for lots of reasons. Reading the outcome of the 4-day week trials seems to bear it out. The popularity of hybrid and remote working options is clear. Yes, it's not possible in all jobs, but then not all jobs are the same. But a level of flexibility is possible in any industry, it just requires a bit of planning and imagination about your workforce planning. Who knows, you might expand and enhance your workforce by being more flexible. It would improve the situation for parents, people with care responsibilities, disabled people, menopausal people, people who have long standing health conditions short of disability, etc. The same people who whinge about flexibility and say "well don't do that job, then" when people raise the lack of flexibility, are the same people up in arms about why so many people leave the workforce and become dependent on benefits!!
The amount of unpaid care that people perform, saving everyone shedloads of tax money is substantial and it is incumbent on everyone in the economy to allow people to work and also exist outside of work. Work is not the be all and end of life. "
You're going to need a mahoooooooooosive t-shirt for that, Mrs KC! |
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"I think we should be looking at how to make employment as flexible as possible across the board, for lots of reasons. Reading the outcome of the 4-day week trials seems to bear it out. The popularity of hybrid and remote working options is clear. Yes, it's not possible in all jobs, but then not all jobs are the same. But a level of flexibility is possible in any industry, it just requires a bit of planning and imagination about your workforce planning. Who knows, you might expand and enhance your workforce by being more flexible. It would improve the situation for parents, people with care responsibilities, disabled people, menopausal people, people who have long standing health conditions short of disability, etc. The same people who whinge about flexibility and say "well don't do that job, then" when people raise the lack of flexibility, are the same people up in arms about why so many people leave the workforce and become dependent on benefits!!
The amount of unpaid care that people perform, saving everyone shedloads of tax money is substantial and it is incumbent on everyone in the economy to allow people to work and also exist outside of work. Work is not the be all and end of life.
You're going to need a mahoooooooooosive t-shirt for that, Mrs KC! "
I do have plenty of space on the front part of my body |
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