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Separate The Man/Woman From His/Her Work
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On the back of the thread about Right Said Fred.
I was wondering, is it right to separate someone from their work if they are an asshole but their work is great?
I love Right Said Fred as a musical group... UP is a great album, but his views I don't really align with.
Any more examples of people that did something great, but they themselves were actually quite a dickhead of a human? |
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By *bi HaiveMan
over a year ago
Forum Mod Cheeseville, Somerset |
"On the back of the thread about Right Said Fred.
I was wondering, is it right to separate someone from their work if they are an asshole but their work is great?
I love Right Said Fred as a musical group... UP is a great album, but his views I don't really align with.
Any more examples of people that did something great, but they themselves were actually quite a dickhead of a human?"
I burnt all my Lost Prophets CD's years ago.
A |
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"On the back of the thread about Right Said Fred.
I was wondering, is it right to separate someone from their work if they are an asshole but their work is great?
I love Right Said Fred as a musical group... UP is a great album, but his views I don't really align with.
Any more examples of people that did something great, but they themselves were actually quite a dickhead of a human?
I burnt all my Lost Prophets CD's years ago.
A"
I very almost made them my example but thought better of it...
There will be people that stand by the music though.
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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago
Liverpool |
It's not about is it right, it's about is it possible for people to do so.
I can for the most part separate the artist from the art. I'll still enjoy of their art what I can in ways I can.
I won't however be rewarding them by paying for such things.
The ways of the free man of the sea come in the play with these situations for me. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I have to admit that I get quite conflicted about this sort of thing. Maybe we should separate them out but I find it a struggle to do so. I’m not going to go into anyone in particular but there are many well known artists of all kinds that I find myself at odds with |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
Steve Jobs changed the world, he really was a visionary.
He was a difficult unreasonable asshole beyond description.
I'm reading a book by his daughter and he doesn't come off well at all.
I knew he was a bastard in work but that pales in comparison to his personal life. |
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I try to consume as ethically as I can (there's no ethical consumption in capitalism etc).
In terms of art, for me it's quite easy. I won't spend any more money on anyone who I know to be in support of actions I consider unethical.
(I may continue to enjoy things by people I've since found out are unethical, as long as I'm not sending money, recommendations, clicks, anything they might gain from, their way. If I've bought the CD then what's done is done, and I'm unlikely to get rid just on that basis - or if I get rid, it'll go to a charity shop not a bonfire) |
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Yeah, I think you can, unless it's beyond the pale (the Lost Prophets example is a good one, but we'll all have our own interpretation of what crosses our red lines). I still like listening to old Kanye sometimes, but I probably wouldn't listen to, and certainly not pay for, anything new. Maybe a tad hypocritical.
My post was genuinely not about RSF's political views (even though I think they are slightly deranged), but that I think the world does not need more music from them!  |
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By *bi HaiveMan
over a year ago
Forum Mod Cheeseville, Somerset |
"On the back of the thread about Right Said Fred.
I was wondering, is it right to separate someone from their work if they are an asshole but their work is great?
I love Right Said Fred as a musical group... UP is a great album, but his views I don't really align with.
Any more examples of people that did something great, but they themselves were actually quite a dickhead of a human?
I burnt all my Lost Prophets CD's years ago.
A
I very almost made them my example but thought better of it...
There will be people that stand by the music though.
"
I feel sorry for the rest of the band myself. Guilt by association and blacklisted from the radio. Good tunes too. 
A |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I don’t.
I don’t like to fund them if possible.
But my addition to this thread is Kanye West, who went from ‘George Bush doesn’t care about Black people’ to ‘Sl*very was a choice’ And antisemitism. |
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"I don’t.
I don’t like to fund them if possible.
But my addition to this thread is Kanye West, who went from ‘George Bush doesn’t care about Black people’ to ‘Sl*very was a choice’ And antisemitism. "
Jeez, I never liked Kanye, but people rate his sampling quite highly... I didn't realise he was that much of a prick though |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I don’t.
I don’t like to fund them if possible.
But my addition to this thread is Kanye West, who went from ‘George Bush doesn’t care about Black people’ to ‘Sl*very was a choice’ And antisemitism.
Jeez, I never liked Kanye, but people rate his sampling quite highly... I didn't realise he was that much of a prick though"
I admit. Musically he is a genius. |
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"On the back of the thread about Right Said Fred.
I was wondering, is it right to separate someone from their work if they are an asshole but their work is great?
I love Right Said Fred as a musical group... UP is a great album, but his views I don't really align with.
Any more examples of people that did something great, but they themselves were actually quite a dickhead of a human?
I burnt all my Lost Prophets CD's years ago.
A
I very almost made them my example but thought better of it...
There will be people that stand by the music though.
I feel sorry for the rest of the band myself. Guilt by association and blacklisted from the radio. Good tunes too.
A"
Yeah that's a hard one to recover from... people just wont want you in their band |
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By *ee04Man
over a year ago
Essex |
I find it difficult, if I am at odds with a persona I struggle to enjoy their art.
I have tried to separate but it pings back in this person is an arsehole for what ever the reason. Some very notable entertainers in recent times.
I loved Rolf Harris’s cartoon time but couldn’t watch it now.
Gary Glitter - great party tunes but if they got played now I’d leave.
Jimmy Saville - Always thought he was creepy/weird but admired what he did for charity Not Now!
The list goes on
Fred Talbot
Stuart Hall
More to come I’m sure |
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By *eliWoman
over a year ago
. |
I think it's very nuanced and depends on what's happened really - I loved Lostprophets, now? Nope.
Roald Dahl? Well, I ignore some of his more questionable works (there's one particular book which is grim and if someone mentions it as some sort of artistic genius I mentally blacklist them) and focus on the simple childhood stories I loved so much when I was younger.
Is that problematic? Possibly. I guess I try and be ethical as much as possible, refuse to endorse by way of payment some frankly horrific ideas/thoughts. |
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"I was actually recently talking to a friend about Madonna regarding this subject.
What did Madonna do? "
Nothing particularly bad but we were discussing her hectic race against aging and how does might impact younger generation. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I think it's very nuanced and depends on what's happened really - I loved Lostprophets, now? Nope.
Roald Dahl? Well, I ignore some of his more questionable works (there's one particular book which is grim and if someone mentions it as some sort of artistic genius I mentally blacklist them) and focus on the simple childhood stories I loved so much when I was younger.
Is that problematic? Possibly. I guess I try and be ethical as much as possible, refuse to endorse by way of payment some frankly horrific ideas/thoughts."
Yeah Dahl‘s raging antisemitism was disappointing.
My mum read me Enid Blyton when I was small. Another one I won’t be reading my daughter. Along with JK Rowling if I can manage. Oh and David Walliams. |
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By *lex46TV/TS
over a year ago
Near Wells |
I hate to this but I used to love Gary Glitter as a youngster and I saw him live at least 6 times.
I still have the singles and a couple of CD's but haven't played them in a long time.
He made some great pop songs but he deserves everything he gets though |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I find it difficult, if I am at odds with a persona I struggle to enjoy their art.
I have tried to separate but it pings back in this person is an arsehole for what ever the reason. Some very notable entertainers in recent times.
I loved Rolf Harris’s cartoon time but couldn’t watch it now.
Gary Glitter - great party tunes but if they got played now I’d leave.
Jimmy Saville - Always thought he was creepy/weird but admired what he did for charity Not Now!
The list goes on
Fred Talbot
Stuart Hall
More to come I’m sure"
Stuart Hall the sociologist? Is there another? When I look him up the sociologist comes up |
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"Separation is tricky. I don't want to give such people money in any way
I like Wagner for example, but at least he won't get any money from me anymore..."
Richard Wagner is a superb example.
His musical legacy is unequivocally the work of a genius, but his well noted anti-Semitic views were utterly deplorable. |
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By *omtom7Man
over a year ago
Tralee |
"I don’t.
I don’t like to fund them if possible.
But my addition to this thread is Kanye West, who went from ‘George Bush doesn’t care about Black people’ to ‘Sl*very was a choice’ And antisemitism.
Jeez, I never liked Kanye, but people rate his sampling quite highly... I didn't realise he was that much of a prick though
I admit. Musically he is a genius. "
Kayne in fairness has documented mental issues. He's bipolar if I remember rightly. He can't write on meds but when he comes off them anything is liable to come out of his mouth. Getting involved with the K mob can't have been much help. |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"I think it's very nuanced and depends on what's happened really - I loved Lostprophets, now? Nope.
Roald Dahl? Well, I ignore some of his more questionable works (there's one particular book which is grim and if someone mentions it as some sort of artistic genius I mentally blacklist them) and focus on the simple childhood stories I loved so much when I was younger.
Is that problematic? Possibly. I guess I try and be ethical as much as possible, refuse to endorse by way of payment some frankly horrific ideas/thoughts."
I get what you're saying but is it the same thing. When we judge a person or thing from the past by a contemporary standard we will find them wanting.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I find it difficult, if I am at odds with a persona I struggle to enjoy their art.
I have tried to separate but it pings back in this person is an arsehole for what ever the reason. Some very notable entertainers in recent times.
I loved Rolf Harris’s cartoon time but couldn’t watch it now.
Gary Glitter - great party tunes but if they got played now I’d leave.
Jimmy Saville - Always thought he was creepy/weird but admired what he did for charity Not Now!
The list goes on
Fred Talbot
Stuart Hall
More to come I’m sure
Stuart Hall the sociologist? Is there another? When I look him up the sociologist comes up"
He was a TV presenter |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I don’t.
I don’t like to fund them if possible.
But my addition to this thread is Kanye West, who went from ‘George Bush doesn’t care about Black people’ to ‘Sl*very was a choice’ And antisemitism.
Jeez, I never liked Kanye, but people rate his sampling quite highly... I didn't realise he was that much of a prick though
I admit. Musically he is a genius.
Kayne in fairness has documented mental issues. He's bipolar if I remember rightly. He can't write on meds but when he comes off them anything is liable to come out of his mouth. Getting involved with the K mob can't have been much help."
His bipolar doesn’t seem like a reason for joss anti blackness and antisemitism and I also don’t think, as much as I hate them, the Kardashians can be blamed either. I do think he needs help and feel for him as a Black man going through very publicly many mental health crisises. But I think him being a prick isn’t actually because he’s bipolar. |
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By *eliWoman
over a year ago
. |
"I think it's very nuanced and depends on what's happened really - I loved Lostprophets, now? Nope.
Roald Dahl? Well, I ignore some of his more questionable works (there's one particular book which is grim and if someone mentions it as some sort of artistic genius I mentally blacklist them) and focus on the simple childhood stories I loved so much when I was younger.
Is that problematic? Possibly. I guess I try and be ethical as much as possible, refuse to endorse by way of payment some frankly horrific ideas/thoughts.
I get what you're saying but is it the same thing. When we judge a person or thing from the past by a contemporary standard we will find them wanting.
"
I'm not talking about the book specifically - that example was used as more of a slight dig at those who think it's good. :D
Roald Dahl had some well known rather erm... dodgy viewpoints. Is it bad if we do judge them by contemporary standard? Not necessarily. I'd like to think that even back then I'd have been a bit wary of someone speaking in such a way. You can't really predict that sort of thing though. |
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"I don’t.
I don’t like to fund them if possible.
But my addition to this thread is Kanye West, who went from ‘George Bush doesn’t care about Black people’ to ‘Sl*very was a choice’ And antisemitism.
Jeez, I never liked Kanye, but people rate his sampling quite highly... I didn't realise he was that much of a prick though
I admit. Musically he is a genius.
Kayne in fairness has documented mental issues. He's bipolar if I remember rightly. He can't write on meds but when he comes off them anything is liable to come out of his mouth. Getting involved with the K mob can't have been much help.
His bipolar doesn’t seem like a reason for joss anti blackness and antisemitism and I also don’t think, as much as I hate them, the Kardashians can be blamed either. I do think he needs help and feel for him as a Black man going through very publicly many mental health crisises. But I think him being a prick isn’t actually because he’s bipolar. "
I think he's a gay fish |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I don’t.
I don’t like to fund them if possible.
But my addition to this thread is Kanye West, who went from ‘George Bush doesn’t care about Black people’ to ‘Sl*very was a choice’ And antisemitism.
Jeez, I never liked Kanye, but people rate his sampling quite highly... I didn't realise he was that much of a prick though
I admit. Musically he is a genius.
Kayne in fairness has documented mental issues. He's bipolar if I remember rightly. He can't write on meds but when he comes off them anything is liable to come out of his mouth. Getting involved with the K mob can't have been much help.
His bipolar doesn’t seem like a reason for joss anti blackness and antisemitism and I also don’t think, as much as I hate them, the Kardashians can be blamed either. I do think he needs help and feel for him as a Black man going through very publicly many mental health crisises. But I think him being a prick isn’t actually because he’s bipolar.
I think he's a gay fish "
‘Do you like Fishsticks, Kanye?’ |
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"I don’t.
I don’t like to fund them if possible.
But my addition to this thread is Kanye West, who went from ‘George Bush doesn’t care about Black people’ to ‘Sl*very was a choice’ And antisemitism.
Jeez, I never liked Kanye, but people rate his sampling quite highly... I didn't realise he was that much of a prick though
I admit. Musically he is a genius.
Kayne in fairness has documented mental issues. He's bipolar if I remember rightly. He can't write on meds but when he comes off them anything is liable to come out of his mouth. Getting involved with the K mob can't have been much help."
Mental health issues may be a mitigating factors for being a raving bigot, but they're not an explanation. |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"I find it difficult, if I am at odds with a persona I struggle to enjoy their art.
I have tried to separate but it pings back in this person is an arsehole for what ever the reason. Some very notable entertainers in recent times.
I loved Rolf Harris’s cartoon time but couldn’t watch it now.
Gary Glitter - great party tunes but if they got played now I’d leave.
Jimmy Saville - Always thought he was creepy/weird but admired what he did for charity Not Now!
The list goes on
Fred Talbot
Stuart Hall
More to come I’m sure"
Jon Peel is a good example. Not quite as bad as Saville, but lots of under age girls and he even married one ! But his sessions were good |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"I think it's very nuanced and depends on what's happened really - I loved Lostprophets, now? Nope.
Roald Dahl? Well, I ignore some of his more questionable works (there's one particular book which is grim and if someone mentions it as some sort of artistic genius I mentally blacklist them) and focus on the simple childhood stories I loved so much when I was younger.
Is that problematic? Possibly. I guess I try and be ethical as much as possible, refuse to endorse by way of payment some frankly horrific ideas/thoughts.
I get what you're saying but is it the same thing. When we judge a person or thing from the past by a contemporary standard we will find them wanting.
I'm not talking about the book specifically - that example was used as more of a slight dig at those who think it's good. :D
Roald Dahl had some well known rather erm... dodgy viewpoints. Is it bad if we do judge them by contemporary standard? Not necessarily. I'd like to think that even back then I'd have been a bit wary of someone speaking in such a way. You can't really predict that sort of thing though. "
You'd like to think it yes but when those opinions were closer to the norm, wouldn't your views be the outlier?
When I grew up I read Mark Twain and was encouraged to. My ex wife stopped my boys from reading Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn. |
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For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
|
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"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
"
Absolutely. It's one of those things that's challenging to grapple with at the best of times. |
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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago
Liverpool |
"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
"
Definitely, it's a spectrum across all things. And there is no right or wrong.
So long as the bad is acknowledged, and the "good" is not used as an excuse for the bad. |
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"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
Definitely, it's a spectrum across all things. And there is no right or wrong.
So long as the bad is acknowledged, and the "good" is not used as an excuse for the bad. "
I like that reasoning  |
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By *aggonerMan
over a year ago
for a penny |
"I don’t.
I don’t like to fund them if possible.
But my addition to this thread is Kanye West, who went from ‘George Bush doesn’t care about Black people’ to ‘Sl*very was a choice’ And antisemitism.
Jeez, I never liked Kanye, but people rate his sampling quite highly... I didn't realise he was that much of a prick though"
Funnily enough, the only thing I know about him is that he is an arsehole. I’ve never heard his work and it was only recently I knew he was a singer. |
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I find this topic really interesting, thanks for posting it OP!
It's one thing to say "I won't buy Garry Glitter music now" (and I do subscribe to that view - I don't want to finance him), but when it comes to historic issues it's less clear.
Do I not visit a Picasso exhibition because of his mysoginy? The man is dead and my viewing his work or boycotting it won't make any difference to him.
When I look at a Degas I see the beauty of it, not the raging antisemitism of its creator.
I think it's good that we're aware of these issues and how problematic some creators are, even if I continue to view their work in that full awareness.
I'm sure in future I'll find out some of my current idols have feet of clay. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
"
I think the people or groups that were affected by their horribleness are best place to answer. For example I’m sure plenty of English people would say Churchill was not so bad. Plenty of Indian people I’ve spoken to and read disagree completely. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I don’t.
I don’t like to fund them if possible.
But my addition to this thread is Kanye West, who went from ‘George Bush doesn’t care about Black people’ to ‘Sl*very was a choice’ And antisemitism.
Jeez, I never liked Kanye, but people rate his sampling quite highly... I didn't realise he was that much of a prick though
Funnily enough, the only thing I know about him is that he is an arsehole. I’ve never heard his work and it was only recently I knew he was a singer. "
His musical genius is pretty undeniable. If you like rap music, you probably like music Kanye has made or produced. |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"I don’t.
I don’t like to fund them if possible.
But my addition to this thread is Kanye West, who went from ‘George Bush doesn’t care about Black people’ to ‘Sl*very was a choice’ And antisemitism.
Jeez, I never liked Kanye, but people rate his sampling quite highly... I didn't realise he was that much of a prick though
I admit. Musically he is a genius.
Kayne in fairness has documented mental issues. He's bipolar if I remember rightly. He can't write on meds but when he comes off them anything is liable to come out of his mouth. Getting involved with the K mob can't have been much help.
His bipolar doesn’t seem like a reason for joss anti blackness and antisemitism and I also don’t think, as much as I hate them, the Kardashians can be blamed either. I do think he needs help and feel for him as a Black man going through very publicly many mental health crisises. But I think him being a prick isn’t actually because he’s bipolar.
I think he's a gay fish
‘Do you like Fishsticks, Kanye?’ "
Imma let you finish pickle.....
But mental health, creativity and personal beliefs aside the man has an ego the size of the moon. This has been to both his benefit and detriment. |
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"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
I think the people or groups that were affected by their horribleness are best place to answer. For example I’m sure plenty of English people would say Churchill was not so bad. Plenty of Indian people I’ve spoken to and read disagree completely. "
Churchill was a racist and classist.
But Hitler was worse, and I'd rather live in a world where we won the war instead of the Nazis
That's how I see it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I don’t.
I don’t like to fund them if possible.
But my addition to this thread is Kanye West, who went from ‘George Bush doesn’t care about Black people’ to ‘Sl*very was a choice’ And antisemitism.
Jeez, I never liked Kanye, but people rate his sampling quite highly... I didn't realise he was that much of a prick though
I admit. Musically he is a genius.
Kayne in fairness has documented mental issues. He's bipolar if I remember rightly. He can't write on meds but when he comes off them anything is liable to come out of his mouth. Getting involved with the K mob can't have been much help.
His bipolar doesn’t seem like a reason for joss anti blackness and antisemitism and I also don’t think, as much as I hate them, the Kardashians can be blamed either. I do think he needs help and feel for him as a Black man going through very publicly many mental health crisises. But I think him being a prick isn’t actually because he’s bipolar.
I think he's a gay fish
‘Do you like Fishsticks, Kanye?’
Imma let you finish pickle.....
But mental health, creativity and personal beliefs aside the man has an ego the size of the moon. This has been to both his benefit and detriment. "
Another of his GREAT moments |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
I think the people or groups that were affected by their horribleness are best place to answer. For example I’m sure plenty of English people would say Churchill was not so bad. Plenty of Indian people I’ve spoken to and read disagree completely.
Churchill was a racist and classist.
But Hitler was worse, and I'd rather live in a world where we won the war instead of the Nazis
That's how I see it."
He was a full on white supremacist. But it’s all hypothetical- we could’ve won the law with a nice human running the country, no? |
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"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
I think the people or groups that were affected by their horribleness are best place to answer. For example I’m sure plenty of English people would say Churchill was not so bad. Plenty of Indian people I’ve spoken to and read disagree completely.
Churchill was a racist and classist.
But Hitler was worse, and I'd rather live in a world where we won the war instead of the Nazis
That's how I see it."
Excellent point  |
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"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
I think the people or groups that were affected by their horribleness are best place to answer. For example I’m sure plenty of English people would say Churchill was not so bad. Plenty of Indian people I’ve spoken to and read disagree completely.
Churchill was a racist and classist.
But Hitler was worse, and I'd rather live in a world where we won the war instead of the Nazis
That's how I see it.
He was a full on white supremacist. But it’s all hypothetical- we could’ve won the law with a nice human running the country, no? "
Indeed.
Imagine a hundred years from now, people arguing that Boris was a hero because at least he wasn't Putin.
Let's have some fucking standards, people |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
I think the people or groups that were affected by their horribleness are best place to answer. For example I’m sure plenty of English people would say Churchill was not so bad. Plenty of Indian people I’ve spoken to and read disagree completely.
Churchill was a racist and classist.
But Hitler was worse, and I'd rather live in a world where we won the war instead of the Nazis
That's how I see it.
He was a full on white supremacist. But it’s all hypothetical- we could’ve won the law with a nice human running the country, no? "
Maybe wrong of me but I'll differentiate between artists and leaders. Why I don't know, but I'm more accepting that great men are not always good men. |
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"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
I think the people or groups that were affected by their horribleness are best place to answer. For example I’m sure plenty of English people would say Churchill was not so bad. Plenty of Indian people I’ve spoken to and read disagree completely.
Churchill was a racist and classist.
But Hitler was worse, and I'd rather live in a world where we won the war instead of the Nazis
That's how I see it.
He was a full on white supremacist. But it’s all hypothetical- we could’ve won the law with a nice human running the country, no?
Maybe wrong of me but I'll differentiate between artists and leaders. Why I don't know, but I'm more accepting that great men are not always good men. "
Because it's easier to change albums than find someone else willing to lead a country? |
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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago
Liverpool |
"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
I think the people or groups that were affected by their horribleness are best place to answer. For example I’m sure plenty of English people would say Churchill was not so bad. Plenty of Indian people I’ve spoken to and read disagree completely.
Churchill was a racist and classist.
But Hitler was worse, and I'd rather live in a world where we won the war instead of the Nazis
That's how I see it.
He was a full on white supremacist. But it’s all hypothetical- we could’ve won the law with a nice human running the country, no? "
Doesn't really matter. He was the one that was running the country.
What he did doesn't change what he is/was, and what he was is/was doesn't change what he did.
Neither cancels the other out, both things exist in history. Credit where its due, and hate where its due.
I'll celebrate Churchill for his role and as a leader at that time what he provided in that role was needed (regardless of somebody else capable of doing it) but I acknowledge and do not excuse his white supremacy ways. I don't celebrate the man. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I don't think I can because once they out themselves as an arsehole, that's all I can remember them for. Especially in the context that what they did will always far outweigh what they're famous for.
For me, Ryan Giggs is a big example. Great footballer and an legend for Manchester United but an absolute trash human being which negates his footballing ability.
Also, Chris Benoit. I find it hard to watch his matches back knowing what it ultimately led to |
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"I don't think I can because once they out themselves as an arsehole, that's all I can remember them for. Especially in the context that what they did will always far outweigh what they're famous for.
For me, Ryan Giggs is a big example. Great footballer and an legend for Manchester United but an absolute trash human being which negates his footballing ability.
Also, Chris Benoit. I find it hard to watch his matches back knowing what it ultimately led to"
Benoit was a fantastic wrestler, but you're right, watching him back now and all you can think about is how it ended. |
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"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
I think the people or groups that were affected by their horribleness are best place to answer. For example I’m sure plenty of English people would say Churchill was not so bad. Plenty of Indian people I’ve spoken to and read disagree completely.
Churchill was a racist and classist.
But Hitler was worse, and I'd rather live in a world where we won the war instead of the Nazis
That's how I see it.
He was a full on white supremacist. But it’s all hypothetical- we could’ve won the law with a nice human running the country, no?
Doesn't really matter. He was the one that was running the country.
What he did doesn't change what he is/was, and what he was is/was doesn't change what he did.
Neither cancels the other out, both things exist in history. Credit where its due, and hate where its due.
I'll celebrate Churchill for his role and as a leader at that time what he provided in that role was needed (regardless of somebody else capable of doing it) but I acknowledge and do not excuse his white supremacy ways. I don't celebrate the man. "
I feel like discourse descends to a point where... I dunno. If you (general you, not aimed at you the poster I'm replying to) don't celebrate Churchill as a hero and whitewash the bad stuff, then you're pro Hitler.
Nah. Good people do bad shit. This isn't hard. |
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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago
Liverpool |
One caveat in my own arguments for being able to separate the person from their work is their reasoning behind their work.
In the case of scum Savile, his "good work" was essentially enabling and allowing him to do what he did much more effective.
The work was tainted even more so because of it, not just through association but from everything it revolved around. Same for RH. |
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By *oxy jWoman
over a year ago
somerset |
i find it amazing that people still see Michael jackson as some sort of music hero when hes the biggest creep out there ... its like people know what he is but its ok as its MJ ... ive never understood the hype around him and his music but he a classic case of his music is so good (to others not me) that the things he did in private dont matter |
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"One caveat in my own arguments for being able to separate the person from their work is their reasoning behind their work.
In the case of scum Savile, his "good work" was essentially enabling and allowing him to do what he did much more effective.
The work was tainted even more so because of it, not just through association but from everything it revolved around. Same for RH. "
Yup. If it turns out (tinfoil hat on) that Zelensky is trying to keep Ukraine independent because he's worried about his adrenochrome supply (that's deeply into the bullshit conspiracy rabbithole but let's just say) - then fuck Zelensky, even if holding back Putin is otherwise admirable. |
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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago
Liverpool |
"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
I think the people or groups that were affected by their horribleness are best place to answer. For example I’m sure plenty of English people would say Churchill was not so bad. Plenty of Indian people I’ve spoken to and read disagree completely.
Churchill was a racist and classist.
But Hitler was worse, and I'd rather live in a world where we won the war instead of the Nazis
That's how I see it.
He was a full on white supremacist. But it’s all hypothetical- we could’ve won the law with a nice human running the country, no?
Doesn't really matter. He was the one that was running the country.
What he did doesn't change what he is/was, and what he was is/was doesn't change what he did.
Neither cancels the other out, both things exist in history. Credit where its due, and hate where its due.
I'll celebrate Churchill for his role and as a leader at that time what he provided in that role was needed (regardless of somebody else capable of doing it) but I acknowledge and do not excuse his white supremacy ways. I don't celebrate the man.
I feel like discourse descends to a point where... I dunno. If you (general you, not aimed at you the poster I'm replying to) don't celebrate Churchill as a hero and whitewash the bad stuff, then you're pro Hitler.
Nah. Good people do bad shit. This isn't hard. "
Yes, good people do bad shit, bad people do good shit. Sometimes bad people do bad shit for the benefit of good and bad people (not referring to any person here).
I don't celebrate him as a hero though, he wasn't a hero. He was a politician that was at no more risk than the civilians in the UK. The heroes were out there at war.
But Churchill was the person and symbol of leadership at that time and he did that role well. Not before the war, not after the war.
And that is where he gets my appreciation. Nowhere else. Not for anything else.
My brain very rarely does work on absolutes and will never change. Exceptions come when I'm extremely emotionally attached to a subject. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I don't think I can because once they out themselves as an arsehole, that's all I can remember them for. Especially in the context that what they did will always far outweigh what they're famous for.
For me, Ryan Giggs is a big example. Great footballer and an legend for Manchester United but an absolute trash human being which negates his footballing ability.
Also, Chris Benoit. I find it hard to watch his matches back knowing what it ultimately led to"
I grew up supporting Chelsea and I remember going to SB and not singing ‘one England captain’ after Anton Ferdinand was racially abused. The beginning of the end of my fandom |
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"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
I think the people or groups that were affected by their horribleness are best place to answer. For example I’m sure plenty of English people would say Churchill was not so bad. Plenty of Indian people I’ve spoken to and read disagree completely.
Churchill was a racist and classist.
But Hitler was worse, and I'd rather live in a world where we won the war instead of the Nazis
That's how I see it.
He was a full on white supremacist. But it’s all hypothetical- we could’ve won the law with a nice human running the country, no?
Doesn't really matter. He was the one that was running the country.
What he did doesn't change what he is/was, and what he was is/was doesn't change what he did.
Neither cancels the other out, both things exist in history. Credit where its due, and hate where its due.
I'll celebrate Churchill for his role and as a leader at that time what he provided in that role was needed (regardless of somebody else capable of doing it) but I acknowledge and do not excuse his white supremacy ways. I don't celebrate the man.
I feel like discourse descends to a point where... I dunno. If you (general you, not aimed at you the poster I'm replying to) don't celebrate Churchill as a hero and whitewash the bad stuff, then you're pro Hitler.
Nah. Good people do bad shit. This isn't hard.
Yes, good people do bad shit, bad people do good shit. Sometimes bad people do bad shit for the benefit of good and bad people (not referring to any person here).
I don't celebrate him as a hero though, he wasn't a hero. He was a politician that was at no more risk than the civilians in the UK. The heroes were out there at war.
But Churchill was the person and symbol of leadership at that time and he did that role well. Not before the war, not after the war.
And that is where he gets my appreciation. Nowhere else. Not for anything else.
My brain very rarely does work on absolutes and will never change. Exceptions come when I'm extremely emotionally attached to a subject. "
Agreed entirely.
I do roll my eyes when people hero worship Churchill and pretend he didn't have his issues, but I understand why he's an important symbol.
We need that nuance. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"For me this an area of great confliction and I guess it really does come down to the individuals in question.
Your perceived quality of their work and your perceived heinousness of the (insert bad thing) they did, and how they stack up against each other within your own morals
Michael Jackson... the man knocked out some of the finest songs of the last hundred years (with Quincy Jones help of course)
J.K Rowling... one the most defining authors of my generation and will likely go down in history alongside C.S Lewis and Tolkien.
Winston Churchill... what world would you rather live in?
It's a difficult subject
I think the people or groups that were affected by their horribleness are best place to answer. For example I’m sure plenty of English people would say Churchill was not so bad. Plenty of Indian people I’ve spoken to and read disagree completely.
Churchill was a racist and classist.
But Hitler was worse, and I'd rather live in a world where we won the war instead of the Nazis
That's how I see it."
Winning the war had fuck all to do with Churchill. The Americans won the war for Europe, not the British. |
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