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Separating The Individual From Their Art
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Are there any artists (musicians/composers/actors/actresses/authors etc) who, based upon their personality/practices/controversial ideologies/criminal convictions etc. you simply, for reasons of personal principle, will not listen to/watch/read etc?
Alternatively, do you find it relatively easy to overlook the above factors (even if they may offend/annoy or even disgust you in some way) and merely enjoy the relevant individuals art in whatever form it may take? (in other words, do you completely separate the art from the individual?)
Please note: I’m not judging anyone on their answers, merely being bloody nosey (a predilection of mine that I engage in with some not inconsiderable frequency…) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Are there any artists (musicians/composers/actors/actresses/authors etc) who, based upon their personality/practices/controversial ideologies/criminal convictions etc. you simply, for reasons of personal principle, will not listen to/watch/read etc?
Alternatively, do you find it relatively easy to overlook the above factors (even if they may offend/annoy or even disgust you in some way) and merely enjoy the relevant individuals art in whatever form it may take? (in other words, do you completely separate the art from the individual?)
Please note: I’m not judging anyone on their answers, merely being bloody nosey (a predilection of mine that I engage in with some not inconsiderable frequency…)"
Funny I was thinking of this the other day. Phil spector was in my mind along with the statue outside the bbc, which I think may have been removed but not sure. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I can separate the person from the art. There are many artists that have questionable acts and pasts but it doesn’t necessarily take away from there artistry. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I can but it does make me uncomfortable. One of my favourite films of all time is Tess, made by Roman Polanski who committed a terrible crime and went properly unpunished. No easy answers.  |
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It depends on the artist and the act for me. When it comes to authors, artists, composers I find it relatively easy to separate them.
When it comes to musicians so much of their act is their personality that I find it much more difficult to divorce them. With actors I can go either way depending on how much I liked them to start with.
Doesn't make much sense I know, but I never claimed to be a logical sort. |
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Wonderful question OP 
I do find that with music if I don't like who someone appears to be I can be turned off everything they do. Or if they do something horrible in a video, like behead a Teddy Bear 
Visual art is very likely not to sway my opinion of it if the artist is someone that appears to be an idiot
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'm thinking maybe I couldn't as it would have been tainted for me. Yet contraversly I have worked with abusers. Soo i guess content, context capacity, mental health, age, awareness, accountability,
Did they address the issue,take accountability would play a role in my consideration. But again saying that I love Ian browns music but will never support him again by going and seeing him.
I think like with most things more info would be needed for me to make an informed decision. |
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"With actors I can go either way depending on how much I liked them to start with."
Forgot about them. If I like (fancy) one and then they take a part that is wicked/horrible I can easily go off them  |
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In my teens and beyond I was a huge fan of afrika bambatta.
Seen him live a few times.
Then recently when all the allegations against him came to light I am seriously conflicted about how I feel about him and his music now,it was such a huge part of my life I do struggle to cut it out of my life completely.
I guess for many this is how they will see Michael Jackson. |
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By *orny PTMan
over a year ago
Peterborough |
The KLF did a collaboration with Gary Glitter. Anyone remember it?
So it's hard to tell if the KLF knew of Glitters's crimes
("Doctorin' the Tardis" is a 1988 electronic novelty pop single by the Timelords ("Time Boy" and "Lord Rock", aliases of Bill Drummond and Jimmy Cauty, better known as The KLF). The song is predominantly a mash-up of the Doctor Who theme music and Gary Glitter's "Rock and Roll (Part Two)" with sections from "Blockbuster!" by Sweet. The single was not well received by critics but was a commercial success, hitting number one on the UK and New Zealand singles charts) |
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From my perspective, I am somewhat left sitting atop the fence - and I hate sitting on metaphorical fences.
Take the classical composer Richard Wagner as an example; His works are truly awe inspiring and majestic and I truly love listening to them….yet at the back of my mind I cannot simply obfuscate, overlook nor forget the fact that he was also a notoriously anti-Semitic supporter of the Nazi party and it’s extreme ideologies/policies. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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On the whole I can separate the 2. There's a lot of (older, generally) actors who's skills I admire, but who's politics I disagree with completely. I can still enjoy their films.
There are some issues for me though I can't overlook. Cruelty to animals for instance. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"From my perspective, I am somewhat left sitting atop the fence - and I hate sitting on metaphorical fences.
Take the classical composer Richard Wagner as an example; His works are truly awe inspiring and majestic and I truly love listening to them….yet at the back of my mind I cannot simply obfuscate, overlook nor forget the fact that he was also a notoriously anti-Semitic supporter of the Nazi party and it’s extreme ideologies/policies."
Wagner died in 1883, before Hitler was born, so enjoy away OP ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"From my perspective, I am somewhat left sitting atop the fence - and I hate sitting on metaphorical fences.
Take the classical composer Richard Wagner as an example; His works are truly awe inspiring and majestic and I truly love listening to them….yet at the back of my mind I cannot simply obfuscate, overlook nor forget the fact that he was also a notoriously anti-Semitic supporter of the Nazi party and it’s extreme ideologies/policies."
sometimes it's a good place to be. I'm not a big fence sitter but i do like to listen evaluate and mull over differing views.
I guess with wagner we have to take into account the era. A bit like kings marrying children all those moons ago.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It depends on how invested you are I think. I loved Buffy, Angel, Firefly etc but now don't think I could really watch them again after accusations made against Joss Whedon dating all the way back to the nineties. And thats truly hard because I do damn well love them all.
But the flip side is there are a number of people mentioned in this thread where I just shrug my shoulders and say "'eh".
I think I only have enough room in my head to feel let down by so many creators without also putting energy into avoiding ones I never cared about in the first place. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This is a good question, been pondering this a fair bit recently after the allegations against Marilyn Manson.
I don't actually know what I think yet. But going to follow this thread. "
Oh FFS not him too! Not heard that news until now. |
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Great question - I teach this subject so I rarely get to say what my personal bias is.
Picasso was an absolute asshole - makes me hate most of his works. Same with Woody Allen. However, I love Roman Polanski films. I also love Klimt's work and he imprisoned and fucked his sister - it's what The Kiss is based on. And if you didn't know that about The Kiss and you love it - because it is a gorgeous work of romantic genius, then it doesn't matter.
What I find interesting is that the reverse is never true. We never look at a piece of shit, and consider the artist in an attempt to like the work more or even to like it at all. If a superb person creates shit, we call it shit and move on.
Technically, the work of an artist stands on its own. Hitler was actually a beautiful artist, he was merely a realist at a time when modernism was erupting from the bowels of creativity, and so he got left out and behind. Imagine the world we could have lived in if he had been accepted to art school. Neither and artist's life nor their intent when they conceived of or created their work matters in terms of the merit of the work itself.
I can recommend some critical art theory about this if you're interested. |
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I thought of Marilyn Manson too when I read this thread, I really don't know how I feel about it to be honest, I haven't banished him from my playlist, I still appreciate his music and his art but it's definitely tainted how I feel about the man. |
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"Great question - I teach this subject so I rarely get to say what my personal bias is.
Picasso was an absolute asshole - makes me hate most of his works. Same with Woody Allen. However, I love Roman Polanski films. I also love Klimt's work and he imprisoned and fucked his sister - it's what The Kiss is based on. And if you didn't know that about The Kiss and you love it - because it is a gorgeous work of romantic genius, then it doesn't matter.
What I find interesting is that the reverse is never true. We never look at a piece of shit, and consider the artist in an attempt to like the work more or even to like it at all. If a superb person creates shit, we call it shit and move on.
Technically, the work of an artist stands on its own. Hitler was actually a beautiful artist, he was merely a realist at a time when modernism was erupting from the bowels of creativity, and so he got left out and behind. Imagine the world we could have lived in if he had been accepted to art school. Neither and artist's life nor their intent when they conceived of or created their work matters in terms of the merit of the work itself.
I can recommend some critical art theory about this if you're interested. "
Very interesting, thank you |
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"This is a good question, been pondering this a fair bit recently after the allegations against Marilyn Manson.
I don't actually know what I think yet. But going to follow this thread.
Oh FFS not him too! Not heard that news until now. "
Think I read on the BBC website a 4th woman has come forward with accusations. |
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Here’s a few more actors/actresses to mull over: Mathew McConaughey, Kurt Russell, Chris Pratt and Jennifer Lawrence.
What do they all have in common you may ask?
Well, they all openly admit to enjoying hunting.
(and I really like the output of the first two!)
I am admittedly conflicted  |
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By *orny PTMan
over a year ago
Peterborough |
"Great question - I teach this subject so I rarely get to say what my personal bias is.
Picasso was an absolute asshole - makes me hate most of his works. Same with Woody Allen. However, I love Roman Polanski films. I also love Klimt's work and he imprisoned and fucked his sister - it's what The Kiss is based on. And if you didn't know that about The Kiss and you love it - because it is a gorgeous work of romantic genius, then it doesn't matter.
What I find interesting is that the reverse is never true. We never look at a piece of shit, and consider the artist in an attempt to like the work more or even to like it at all. If a superb person creates shit, we call it shit and move on.
Technically, the work of an artist stands on its own. Hitler was actually a beautiful artist, he was merely a realist at a time when modernism was erupting from the bowels of creativity, and so he got left out and behind. Imagine the world we could have lived in if he had been accepted to art school. Neither and artist's life nor their intent when they conceived of or created their work matters in terms of the merit of the work itself.
I can recommend some critical art theory about this if you're interested. "
He also stayed in digs in Liverpool, Stan Boardman would not approve of that locale getting a blue plaque. |
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"Here’s a few more actors/actresses to mull over: Mathew McConaughey, Kurt Russell, Chris Pratt and Jennifer Lawrence.
What do they all have in common you may ask?
Well, they all openly admit to enjoying hunting.
(and I really like the output of the first two!)
I am admittedly conflicted "
Regards hunting
I think it's something that we don't really understand this side of the pond it's very much part of American culture.
NOT that I agree with it but for large parts of America hunting is almost universally accepted.
Big game hunting tho is something else.
Not going to get into a debate about hunting it makes me feel sick.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Here’s a few more actors/actresses to mull over: Mathew McConaughey, Kurt Russell, Chris Pratt and Jennifer Lawrence.
What do they all have in common you may ask?
Well, they all openly admit to enjoying hunting.
(and I really like the output of the first two!)
I am admittedly conflicted "
Yeah, it's like when James Hetfield openly talked about going to different places in the world (not just in America) shooting bears in his spare time.
But then again, Metallica haven't made any new music worth listening too for a long time. -In my opinion of course. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Great question - I teach this subject so I rarely get to say what my personal bias is.
Picasso was an absolute asshole - makes me hate most of his works. Same with Woody Allen. However, I love Roman Polanski films. I also love Klimt's work and he imprisoned and fucked his sister - it's what The Kiss is based on. And if you didn't know that about The Kiss and you love it - because it is a gorgeous work of romantic genius, then it doesn't matter.
What I find interesting is that the reverse is never true. We never look at a piece of shit, and consider the artist in an attempt to like the work more or even to like it at all. If a superb person creates shit, we call it shit and move on.
Technically, the work of an artist stands on its own. Hitler was actually a beautiful artist, he was merely a realist at a time when modernism was erupting from the bowels of creativity, and so he got left out and behind. Imagine the world we could have lived in if he had been accepted to art school. Neither and artist's life nor their intent when they conceived of or created their work matters in terms of the merit of the work itself.
I can recommend some critical art theory about this if you're interested. "
Love this!
Your like a hannah gadsby! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Great question - I teach this subject so I rarely get to say what my personal bias is.
Picasso was an absolute asshole - makes me hate most of his works. Same with Woody Allen. However, I love Roman Polanski films. I also love Klimt's work and he imprisoned and fucked his sister - it's what The Kiss is based on. And if you didn't know that about The Kiss and you love it - because it is a gorgeous work of romantic genius, then it doesn't matter.
What I find interesting is that the reverse is never true. We never look at a piece of shit, and consider the artist in an attempt to like the work more or even to like it at all. If a superb person creates shit, we call it shit and move on.
Technically, the work of an artist stands on its own. Hitler was actually a beautiful artist, he was merely a realist at a time when modernism was erupting from the bowels of creativity, and so he got left out and behind. Imagine the world we could have lived in if he had been accepted to art school. Neither and artist's life nor their intent when they conceived of or created their work matters in terms of the merit of the work itself.
I can recommend some critical art theory about this if you're interested. "
I'm staning right now!
Yes please! But will it be snappy like you and hannah? |
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"Great question - I teach this subject so I rarely get to say what my personal bias is.
Picasso was an absolute asshole - makes me hate most of his works. Same with Woody Allen. However, I love Roman Polanski films. I also love Klimt's work and he imprisoned and fucked his sister - it's what The Kiss is based on. And if you didn't know that about The Kiss and you love it - because it is a gorgeous work of romantic genius, then it doesn't matter.
What I find interesting is that the reverse is never true. We never look at a piece of shit, and consider the artist in an attempt to like the work more or even to like it at all. If a superb person creates shit, we call it shit and move on.
Technically, the work of an artist stands on its own. Hitler was actually a beautiful artist, he was merely a realist at a time when modernism was erupting from the bowels of creativity, and so he got left out and behind. Imagine the world we could have lived in if he had been accepted to art school. Neither and artist's life nor their intent when they conceived of or created their work matters in terms of the merit of the work itself.
I can recommend some critical art theory about this if you're interested. "
I had no idea Hitler was an accomplished artist. It is indeed truly tantalising to ponder how history could have been so very different had he have stayed on this course…  |
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By *etcplCouple
over a year ago
Gapping Fanny |
Yes, because for the most part the art (music and film) is not the creation of a single person. By refusing to enjoy those things I used to I am punishing all the others that worked on those items.
I also refuse to feel guilty that I may enjoy something created by terrible people, because at the time my memories were created I wasn't aware of their behaviour. |
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Another recent case and additionally, an example of what is colloquially termed, ‘Cancel Culture’: Armie Hammer.
Revelations that have surfaced indicate that he may be….well, a bit of a sick bastard to be frank.
Mind you, I never really watched him anyway.
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I find I can detest someone for things that it had transpired they have done, but still be appreciative of the work they have produced up until that point , but I then tend not to engage with any of their work subsequent to that.
If I liked something based on its merit, then I see no reason to suddenly dislike it, but then I disengage from that person so am unlikely to view/listen or read any further new output.
If that makes any sense at all. |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
An interesting and thought provoking thread that throws up some very conflicting thoughts - from a societal perspective the answer generally seems to be that where a case against someone is proven to the point of a conviction of a serious offence then the artist's work should be wiped out and not spoken of again - if it's not then people make their own choices.
That said I found it interesting that the film Joker used Rock & Roll Part 2 (by Glitter) in what is now considered quite an iconic scene.
It's also interesting to note how historical people are "forgiven" because it was different times, but does make you wonder if in 100 years time some of today's disgraced artists will be forgiven in a similar way and celebrated for their art. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Apart from the fact that Richard Wagner died long before the Nazi era, many people named on the thread are subject to accusation not proof or conviction. I’ll judge those whose actions or words are established, but not on rumour alone. |
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"Jimmy Saville: Now there’s one example wherein I rather fancy most will likely agree upon in unanimously boycotting ever watching footage of again.
"
You could never have accused him of being an artist.
I can't think of anything he did that wasn't anything but creepy. |
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"Apart from the fact that Richard Wagner died long before the Nazi era, many people named on the thread are subject to accusation not proof or conviction. I’ll judge those whose actions or words are established, but not on rumour alone. "
That was my mistake; Anti-Semitic he certainly was but the actual Nazi party was formed much later. |
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"However
Rolf Harris
Famous for his art.
Even done a portrait of the Queen."
This is the one I really struggle with.
I really liked him as a performance artist and painter.
The fact that he is very much alive (as far as I know) and is part of happy childhood memories, really conflicts with what we now know about him. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I like watching wrestling matches back from years ago but I can't watch any Chris Benoit matches. Just seeing him take any kind of blow to the head makes me wince. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"From my perspective, I am somewhat left sitting atop the fence - and I hate sitting on metaphorical fences.
Take the classical composer Richard Wagner as an example; His works are truly awe inspiring and majestic and I truly love listening to them….yet at the back of my mind I cannot simply obfuscate, overlook nor forget the fact that he was also a notoriously anti-Semitic supporter of the Nazi party and it’s extreme ideologies/policies."
Pretty much my thoughts exactly when I saw the thread. I can't get the thought out of my head that his music was the last thing many heard before the doors of the gas chambers clanged shut behind them.
Mr |
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Interestingly, on less serious crimes, I do find myself admittedly turned off certain actors/actresses based upon their off screen personas.
An example, Russell Crowe.
His previous history of loutish, bullying antics are well documented in Hollywood by fellow stars and the public alike and as a result I generally tended to avoid his films, despite the fact, that from those I had seen, I would readily give him his due as a highly skilled actor.
I watched him in a film recently though, Unhinged and now have a renewed respect for him of sorts (even though he might be accused of seriously slumming it in said film)  |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
"However
Rolf Harris
Famous for his art.
Even done a portrait of the Queen.
This is the one I really struggle with.
I really liked him as a performance artist and painter.
The fact that he is very much alive (as far as I know) and is part of happy childhood memories, really conflicts with what we now know about him."
Me too - especially as Two Little Boys was something my Mum used to sing to me as a kid, so it has special connections associated, but I think I've taken more of a "those memories are tainted" view than being able to listen to it, or just see them as memories not to be evoked outside my head kind of thing. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Apart from the fact that Richard Wagner died long before the Nazi era, many people named on the thread are subject to accusation not proof or conviction. I’ll judge those whose actions or words are established, but not on rumour alone. "
Phil spector is pretty established |
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If it's truly great art, it transcends its creator. Picasso, Philip Roth, John Lennon, for example, were all flawed and capable of great cruelty in their private lives but their art changed the way we see and represent the world. |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
To put a slightly different spin on this though if we are able to appreciate the art of people who have "wronged" in modern parlance - how can we justify the outrage that ensued a year ago over historical figures whose acts "of their time" were being held up to scrutiny e.g. Drake?
Not seeking to open up that debate necessarily but an interesting point to consider. |
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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago
Manchester (he/him) |
"To put a slightly different spin on this though if we are able to appreciate the art of people who have "wronged" in modern parlance - how can we justify the outrage that ensued a year ago over historical figures whose acts "of their time" were being held up to scrutiny e.g. Drake?
Not seeking to open up that debate necessarily but an interesting point to consider."
An interesting point indeed! Also, are some historical acts considered as ok, as part of the time, and are other ‘acts’ acceptable because of what they did? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Apart from the fact that Richard Wagner died long before the Nazi era, many people named on the thread are subject to accusation not proof or conviction. I’ll judge those whose actions or words are established, but not on rumour alone. "
He was openly anti semitic (as were many in Europe at that time) though it is hard to say how ideological this was. By all accounts he had Jewish friends but then he wrote about "Jewishness" in music. For me it is the association with the Nazi party and their enthusiastic use of his music that I struggle with.
I guess this is a step on from the OP, can art be separated not just from the sins of the artist but from future associations. Sticking with the Nazi party, the swastika has roots and meanings that stretch back millenia yet I doubt that many today can disassociate it from right-wing ideology.
Mr |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I used to think I was able to til about a year-ish ago.. With Chris D'elia I could not. It's just so absurd and after I knew his situation I tried watching his stand-up shows again but it's always there.
But like some people are saying, I feel like there are no right answers on this. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I felt conflicted after Ian Watkins arrest...
Loved Lost Prophets and ironically they were a band I approved my kids listening too, I liked that their music had no obvious sexual undertones or swearing
I did stop listening to their music but felt that by not listening to them was unfair to the rest of the band....But apart from a track entitled Sway I don't think there is a track without his vocals on.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Apart from the fact that Richard Wagner died long before the Nazi era, many people named on the thread are subject to accusation not proof or conviction. I’ll judge those whose actions or words are established, but not on rumour alone.
Phil spector is pretty established"
Of course, and also Polanski who I mentioned. But not so with others names here. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Apart from the fact that Richard Wagner died long before the Nazi era, many people named on the thread are subject to accusation not proof or conviction. I’ll judge those whose actions or words are established, but not on rumour alone.
He was openly anti semitic (as were many in Europe at that time) though it is hard to say how ideological this was. By all accounts he had Jewish friends but then he wrote about "Jewishness" in music. For me it is the association with the Nazi party and their enthusiastic use of his music that I struggle with.
I guess this is a step on from the OP, can art be separated not just from the sins of the artist but from future associations. Sticking with the Nazi party, the swastika has roots and meanings that stretch back millenia yet I doubt that many today can disassociate it from right-wing ideology.
Mr"
Hitler loved Wagner and had a close association with Wagners daughter-in-law Winifred who certainly was a Nazi. But I just don’t see how an artist can be guilty by association they have no control over ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It is quite depressing … at the rate that accusations are coming out of the woodwork in 10 years time we’ll have nothing to look at other than magnolia walls!
Lets hope the Dulux dog is not caught shitting on the pavement! |
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On the flip side of the coin, I must admit to finding my appreciation of a given actor/actress/musician etc. actually augmented ten fold if their real life persona comes across and quantitively endorsed as friendly/charming etc.
Some examples of some such universally acknowledged stars would be the likes of, Hugh Jackman, Keanu Reeves and Pearce Brosnan (to name three actors) |
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"It is quite depressing … at the rate that accusations are coming out of the woodwork in 10 years time we’ll have nothing to look at other than magnolia walls!
Lets hope the Dulux dog is not caught shitting on the pavement! "
I heard that Lassie was a particularly nasty piece of work; stroppy on set and bit every crew member! |
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It's well known that Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin, one of the best evs guitarists, who was honoured by Barak Obama no less at the Kennedy Centre, regularly slept with 14 year old girls in Zeppelins 1970s heyday.
This leaves me perennially conflicted about one of my all time favourite bands! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's well known that Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin, one of the best evs guitarists, who was honoured by Barak Obama no less at the Kennedy Centre, regularly slept with 14 year old girls in Zeppelins 1970s heyday.
This leaves me perennially conflicted about one of my all time favourite bands!"
And Pete Townsend had kiddie porn claiming he was writing a book....still no book |
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"It's well known that Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin, one of the best evs guitarists, who was honoured by Barak Obama no less at the Kennedy Centre, regularly slept with 14 year old girls in Zeppelins 1970s heyday.
This leaves me perennially conflicted about one of my all time favourite bands!
And Pete Townsend had kiddie porn claiming he was writing a book....still no book"
Yes all in the name of 'research'. Hmmmmm
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's well known that Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin, one of the best evs guitarists, who was honoured by Barak Obama no less at the Kennedy Centre, regularly slept with 14 year old girls in Zeppelins 1970s heyday.
This leaves me perennially conflicted about one of my all time favourite bands!
And Pete Townsend had kiddie porn claiming he was writing a book....still no book"
He published his autobiography in 2012 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The KLF did a collaboration with Gary Glitter. Anyone remember it?
So it's hard to tell if the KLF knew of Glitters's crimes
("Doctorin' the Tardis" is a 1988 electronic novelty pop single by the Timelords ("Time Boy" and "Lord Rock", aliases of Bill Drummond and Jimmy Cauty, better known as The KLF). The song is predominantly a mash-up of the Doctor Who theme music and Gary Glitter's "Rock and Roll (Part Two)" with sections from "Blockbuster!" by Sweet. The single was not well received by critics but was a commercial success, hitting number one on the UK and New Zealand singles charts)"
I don't think that's a collaboration, it's a cover version. I don't think the KLF worked with him. Obviously they didn't know then what we know now. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's well known that Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin, one of the best evs guitarists, who was honoured by Barak Obama no less at the Kennedy Centre, regularly slept with 14 year old girls in Zeppelins 1970s heyday.
This leaves me perennially conflicted about one of my all time favourite bands!
And Pete Townsend had kiddie porn claiming he was writing a book....still no book
Yes all in the name of 'research'. Hmmmmm
"
Yet this is the guy who wrote a song about being abused as a child and put it in his most famous work. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's well known that Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin, one of the best evs guitarists, who was honoured by Barak Obama no less at the Kennedy Centre, regularly slept with 14 year old girls in Zeppelins 1970s heyday.
This leaves me perennially conflicted about one of my all time favourite bands!
And Pete Townsend had kiddie porn claiming he was writing a book....still no book
He published his autobiography in 2012"
It wasn't that...he said it was about child abuse and he was studying it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's well known that Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin, one of the best evs guitarists, who was honoured by Barak Obama no less at the Kennedy Centre, regularly slept with 14 year old girls in Zeppelins 1970s heyday.
This leaves me perennially conflicted about one of my all time favourite bands!"
And he took her out and appeared in public with her quite openly and nobody at the time said a damn thing. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's well known that Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin, one of the best evs guitarists, who was honoured by Barak Obama no less at the Kennedy Centre, regularly slept with 14 year old girls in Zeppelins 1970s heyday.
This leaves me perennially conflicted about one of my all time favourite bands!
And he took her out and appeared in public with her quite openly and nobody at the time said a damn thing."
Just googled that backstory….. she was close friends with a few stars. Including Bowie!  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's well known that Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin, one of the best evs guitarists, who was honoured by Barak Obama no less at the Kennedy Centre, regularly slept with 14 year old girls in Zeppelins 1970s heyday.
This leaves me perennially conflicted about one of my all time favourite bands!
And he took her out and appeared in public with her quite openly and nobody at the time said a damn thing.
Just googled that backstory….. she was close friends with a few stars. Including Bowie! "
Well Bowie liked them that age |
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By *ensualMan
over a year ago
Sutton |
"It's well known that Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin, one of the best evs guitarists, who was honoured by Barak Obama no less at the Kennedy Centre, regularly slept with 14 year old girls in Zeppelins 1970s heyday.
This leaves me perennially conflicted about one of my all time favourite bands!
And he took her out and appeared in public with her quite openly and nobody at the time said a damn thing."
I was a huge Led Zeppelin fan (well the album's from LZ1 to Physical Graffiti and a few years ago bought the book "Stairway to Heaven Led Zeppelin Uncensored" by their roadie Richard Cole,and it is openly stated there. I still listen to to Led Zep from time to time but my opinion of Jimmie Page as a person has sunk.
I used to love watching "Lewis" but I can no longer watch it after Fox's comments on Meghan Markle. Thank God for the repeats of "Morse" and "New Tricks". |
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"Apart from the fact that Richard Wagner died long before the Nazi era, many people named on the thread are subject to accusation not proof or conviction. I’ll judge those whose actions or words are established, but not on rumour alone.
He was openly anti semitic (as were many in Europe at that time) though it is hard to say how ideological this was. By all accounts he had Jewish friends but then he wrote about "Jewishness" in music. For me it is the association with the Nazi party and their enthusiastic use of his music that I struggle with.
I guess this is a step on from the OP, can art be separated not just from the sins of the artist but from future associations. Sticking with the Nazi party, the swastika has roots and meanings that stretch back millenia yet I doubt that many today can disassociate it from right-wing ideology.
Mr
Hitler loved Wagner and had a close association with Wagners daughter-in-law Winifred who certainly was a Nazi. But I just don’t see how an artist can be guilty by association they have no control over ? "
Wagner wore gloves whenever he conducted piece of music written by Jews because he didn't want to be contaminated. That's fact not opinion. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"To put a slightly different spin on this though if we are able to appreciate the art of people who have "wronged" in modern parlance - how can we justify the outrage that ensued a year ago over historical figures whose acts "of their time" were being held up to scrutiny e.g. Drake?
Not seeking to open up that debate necessarily but an interesting point to consider.
An interesting point indeed! Also, are some historical acts considered as ok, as part of the time, and are other ‘acts’ acceptable because of what they did? "
Maybe not considered ok or accepted but as a critical thinker taking factors into consideration.
Black and white thinking and behaving...nuhuh
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Actor wise: I was always a big fan of Kevin Spacey.
And then…. "
But hes still a good actor but now you find it uncomfortable to watch him....like lance Armstrong in dodgeball |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"To put a slightly different spin on this though if we are able to appreciate the art of people who have "wronged" in modern parlance - how can we justify the outrage that ensued a year ago over historical figures whose acts "of their time" were being held up to scrutiny e.g. Drake?
Not seeking to open up that debate necessarily but an interesting point to consider."
Quite.
Ergo... thanks giving plymouth and the pilgrims... a homage to colonialism and bigotry? Or 'belittle the... past by dwelling only on the points where they come short of the universally recognized standards of the present'.(T. Roosevelt) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"On the flip side of the coin, I must admit to finding my appreciation of a given actor/actress/musician etc. actually augmented ten fold if their real life persona comes across and quantitively endorsed as friendly/charming etc.
Some examples of some such universally acknowledged stars would be the likes of, Hugh Jackman, Keanu Reeves and Pearce Brosnan (to name three actors) "
Anthony Hopkins |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Great question. Another angle is how far does one go to stick to one's principles? Like its gonna be hard to never watch a Harvey Weinstein film again"
I discovered in the 90s that the owner of domino's pizzas in America was giving company money to pro life groups I boycotted them and still to this day I will not have a domino's pizza...its a small protest I know |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes, because for the most part the art (music and film) is not the creation of a single person. By refusing to enjoy those things I used to I am punishing all the others that worked on those items.
I also refuse to feel guilty that I may enjoy something created by terrible people, because at the time my memories were created I wasn't aware of their behaviour."
Good point, although using woody allen as an example, once you know something its difficult to unknow it, when you review his work through the now informed lense... well you see the hidden.
But that also brings us to to money status privilege power. And dare I say sex (male/female) and societals perceptions and acceptance, by acceptance i mean recognition.
Eg...some men on here being agressive,abusive,self pitying towards a rejection, or a strongly/forthright written respose. Where as women receiving this it is more a case of sigh, suprised...no, dissapointed...yes.
Please note this is merely an example of how we can and do demonise and accept. Not an unhanded jaded snipe |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It is quite depressing … at the rate that accusations are coming out of the woodwork in 10 years time we’ll have nothing to look at other than magnolia walls!
Lets hope the Dulux dog is not caught shitting on the pavement! "
Haha! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It is quite depressing … at the rate that accusations are coming out of the woodwork in 10 years time we’ll have nothing to look at other than magnolia walls!
Lets hope the Dulux dog is not caught shitting on the pavement!
I heard that Lassie was a particularly nasty piece of work; stroppy on set and bit every crew member! "
Too funny! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Apart from the fact that Richard Wagner died long before the Nazi era, many people named on the thread are subject to accusation not proof or conviction. I’ll judge those whose actions or words are established, but not on rumour alone.
He was openly anti semitic (as were many in Europe at that time) though it is hard to say how ideological this was. By all accounts he had Jewish friends but then he wrote about "Jewishness" in music. For me it is the association with the Nazi party and their enthusiastic use of his music that I struggle with.
I guess this is a step on from the OP, can art be separated not just from the sins of the artist but from future associations. Sticking with the Nazi party, the swastika has roots and meanings that stretch back millenia yet I doubt that many today can disassociate it from right-wing ideology.
Mr
Hitler loved Wagner and had a close association with Wagners daughter-in-law Winifred who certainly was a Nazi. But I just don’t see how an artist can be guilty by association they have no control over ?
Wagner wore gloves whenever he conducted piece of music written by Jews because he didn't want to be contaminated. That's fact not opinion. "
You know I love this shit! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Great question. Another angle is how far does one go to stick to one's principles? Like its gonna be hard to never watch a Harvey Weinstein film again"
For me the bigger issue with the likes of weinstein allen whelan, savile, cosby... power privilege money...people knowing and yet protecting hiding... another reason for my not having a tv liscence, we still haven't closed the jill dando case... *hmmm **chin stoke |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Great question. Another angle is how far does one go to stick to one's principles? Like its gonna be hard to never watch a Harvey Weinstein film again
I discovered in the 90s that the owner of domino's pizzas in America was giving company money to pro life groups I boycotted them and still to this day I will not have a domino's pizza...its a small protest I know"
Is this still the case? I'm all about think global act local! So no not a small Protest, however I am inclined to let them know why |
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YUUP!!
I stop/won’t watch anything by anyone who has admitted, been convicted or “settled out of court” for anything I don’t like…
Examples of those on my list are Roman Polanski, Mickey Rourke, Bill Cosby, Mel Gibson and Kevin Spacey (sad to see him go, I really enjoy his work)
*Yes, I do know it might be weird to some, but dems da rulez! |
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I'm fine with separating out the work that someone has done from their moral outlook or behaviour.
We do it all the time. For example would we insist on not buying production line produced cars because Henry Ford held views on race that would not be supported today.
Would we dig up all roads and sewars because Romans used to own and kill $laves for public entertainment.
Pretty much all Kings throughout history would have been engaging in sex wihh those no of legal age by today's standards.
So there is a case for acknowledgement of the time and place that people lived in and what their standards were at the time, accepting we do not value those standards now but can see that had we lived in a similar situation we could have held similar views.
I think it's dangerous to assume we are any better than those before us as I am sure in 100 years time some of today's standards will be deemed illegal or imorral.
As for those who break laws of the current day, you would hope that as part of their punishment, future income from that work would be diverted in whole or in part to their victims.
But that is for the legal systems of each country to handle. |
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"Great question. Another angle is how far does one go to stick to one's principles? Like its gonna be hard to never watch a Harvey Weinstein film again
I discovered in the 90s that the owner of domino's pizzas in America was giving company money to pro life groups I boycotted them and still to this day I will not have a domino's pizza...its a small protest I know"
Playing devil's advocate do you also boycott other companies that dominoes are also invested in or are you content to fund those companies who will return those profits back to dominoes?
What I mean is you could go on forever as many companies cross invest in each other. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Great question. Another angle is how far does one go to stick to one's principles? Like its gonna be hard to never watch a Harvey Weinstein film again
I discovered in the 90s that the owner of domino's pizzas in America was giving company money to pro life groups I boycotted them and still to this day I will not have a domino's pizza...its a small protest I know
Playing devil's advocate do you also boycott other companies that dominoes are also invested in or are you content to fund those companies who will return those profits back to dominoes?
What I mean is you could go on forever as many companies cross invest in each other. "
No...I made a stand in the 90s because I believe in a woman's right to choose but the money was coming from the owners own pocket which was his decision same as it was mine to never give them my money |
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Some really brilliant, eloquent and well thought out answers everyone!
Here’s another example of a moral conflict I have wrestled with, specifically regarding the cinematic art: Victor Salva.
The name might not be immediately familiar to everyone, but he directed the film series, Jeepers Creepers (which I personally, very much enjoyed).
Unfortunately, Mr Salva is also a convicted paedophile and served three years in prison for abusing a twelve year old girl on the set of one of his earlier films namely, Clownhouse.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Hitler loved Wagner and had a close association with Wagners daughter-in-law Winifred who certainly was a Nazi. But I just don’t see how an artist can be guilty by association they have no control over ? "
The OP isn't about establishing guilt but whether we as individuals can enjoy art despite a knowledge of the artists failings. This made me think further, can I enjoy art that has previously had other associations that have nothing to do with the artist (though in this case there is a connection with Wagners own beliefs)
Mr |
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By *orny PTMan
over a year ago
Peterborough |
"Jimmy Saville: Now there’s one example wherein I rather fancy most will likely agree upon in unanimously boycotting ever watching footage of again.
You could never have accused him of being an artist.
I can't think of anything he did that wasn't anything but creepy."
The Milk race, wrestling, coal miner, being the first DJ to play recorded music at dances, recovering from a broken back. Anyone else, this would be a good example to follow...with him, it's a facade |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"Jimmy Saville: Now there’s one example wherein I rather fancy most will likely agree upon in unanimously boycotting ever watching footage of again.
You could never have accused him of being an artist.
I can't think of anything he did that wasn't anything but creepy.
The Milk race, wrestling, coal miner, being the first DJ to play recorded music at dances, recovering from a broken back. Anyone else, this would be a good example to follow...with him, it's a facade"
it’s about how you finish that counts, Blair, thatcher , Winnie Mandela … all did great things but people are remembered by how they finish , often very badly. |
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"Jimmy Saville: Now there’s one example wherein I rather fancy most will likely agree upon in unanimously boycotting ever watching footage of again.
You could never have accused him of being an artist.
I can't think of anything he did that wasn't anything but creepy.
The Milk race, wrestling, coal miner, being the first DJ to play recorded music at dances, recovering from a broken back. Anyone else, this would be a good example to follow...with him, it's a facade"
To be fair Saville never produced anything that would be watchable on repeat, so that's an easy one to avoid.
However i bet people still give the occasional
"now then, now then" |
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