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The UK approach vs the NZ approach
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic " Unfortunately a bit late now. We started following a path and too late to turn back | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic " No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic " Nah we know best We are a completely different type of island to them | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic Nah we know best We are a completely different type of island to them " yes im glad you can see that.  | |||
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"As the horse frolics across the field someone closes the stable door."  | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. " Tend to agree there are differences and you've rightly mentioned some, another has been the speed at which decisions have been taken.. NZ and Australia have acted far more decisively and clearly than our own leadership.. | |||
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"Population density of NZ v England? " 1 NZ to every 13.5 UK | |||
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"Population density of NZ v England? " A factor in many areas yes but a good Shepherd and clever Collie(s) will have good control of a small herd and a large herd to the same degree..  | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Tend to agree there are differences and you've rightly mentioned some, another has been the speed at which decisions have been taken.. NZ and Australia have acted far more decisively and clearly than our own leadership.." Come now..we are clearly the only population in the world with a dense population. | |||
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"Population density of NZ v England? " Thats one factor they also dont have 100,s of people in and out delivering food etc from another country, millions of people who are wanting to go abroad for a holiday, they are not an international hub for travel do not employ 100,000,s of people in the tourist and travel business the list is endless. The uk,s nearest neighbour is 25 miles NZ,s is 2500 miles im sure the people who try to compare the uk with some countries have never been there.  | |||
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We could have followed a plan (if we didn't have a dithering blob) that pursued zero covid. But allowed any and all people to come from hotspots, without tracking people down - thus hundreds of localised breeding grounds were seeded.
We chose dithering and indecision. NZ chose quick, effective action.
The more we delayed, the bigger the problem we allowed to be created and thus the longer we had to endure restrictions. This doesn't relate to the type of island etc that we are. | |||
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"We really need to compile a full list of reasons/excuses why the gmnt is in no way responsible for the cataclysmic handling of the situation. " No one is looking for excuses as to why the government aren't at fault. However, the only comparison that can be made with NZ is that we are both islands. There are no other comparisons whatsoever. | |||
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"We really need to compile a full list of reasons/excuses why the gmnt is in no way responsible for the cataclysmic handling of the situation. " They are not excuses mate they are facts.Just for once tell me how YOU think the uk could have implemented the same measures as NZ. | |||
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"We really need to compile a full list of reasons/excuses why the gmnt is in no way responsible for the cataclysmic handling of the situation. " Hancock started the trend with others following and some has been duly imbibed and regurgitated.. Out of all of them the blaming of the NHS and care system staff for misuse of PPE was pretty low given the numbers in those professions who have succumbed to the virus .. | |||
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"The first step was the quality of the leader that got elected
We could have followed a plan (if we didn't have a dithering blob) that pursued zero covid. But allowed any and all people to come from hotspots, without tracking people down - thus hundreds of localised breeding grounds were seeded.
We chose dithering and indecision. NZ chose quick, effective action.
The more we delayed, the bigger the problem we allowed to be created and thus the longer we had to endure restrictions. This doesn't relate to the type of island etc that we are. "To be fair to Johnson he was fully prepared to go on the sooty show and get injected live on air to prove it wasnt dangerous. Do you see any other world leaders doing that? That's dedication for you | |||
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"Can we compare a camel with a penguin next ?" | |||
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"We really need to compile a full list of reasons/excuses why the gmnt is in no way responsible for the cataclysmic handling of the situation. Hancock started the trend with others following and some has been duly imbibed and regurgitated.. Out of all of them the blaming of the NHS and care system staff for misuse of PPE was pretty low given the numbers in those professions who have succumbed to the virus .." Personally I'd say the pm not being arsed to attend 5 meetings about a deadly pandemic was probally a sign of things to come. | |||
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"We really need to compile a full list of reasons/excuses why the gmnt is in no way responsible for the cataclysmic handling of the situation. Hancock started the trend with others following and some has been duly imbibed and regurgitated.. Out of all of them the blaming of the NHS and care system staff for misuse of PPE was pretty low given the numbers in those professions who have succumbed to the virus .. Personally I'd say the pm not being arsed to attend 5 meetings about a deadly pandemic was probally a sign of things to come." What for instance would you have done about the lack of food for people in the uk if we had done what NZ did just one question to start that shouldnt be to hard to answer. | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Tend to agree there are differences and you've rightly mentioned some, another has been the speed at which decisions have been taken.. NZ and Australia have acted far more decisively and clearly than our own leadership.." I agree on the speed of decisions, for me that was a key factor. M has friends in NZ and chats on one of their forums. It seems that the population of NZ were more compliant with their guidelines too. We saw/see very little "I'm not wearing a mask because" and "It's all a conspiracy" nonsense. People seemed to accept the guidines with a lot more good grace and will than over here. I appreciate it's only a snapshot of the population, but we saw a lot less argument and dissent. E | |||
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"Isnt it funny though? When our death rates were relatively low, the gmnt would compare our figures with other countries on a daily basis,but the exact moment they went through the roof,we decided it wasnt accurate to compare ourselves with others. Purely coincidental I'm sure." What has this to do with the thread do you care to answer some questions as you seem post what you wouldn't have done just like captain hindsight but never say what you would have done.Its all very well saying we should have done what NZ did but the minute a question is raised how we could have done it the same you dont give an answer. | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic " I have no clue what "our approach" is anymore... Its seems to be see how many people we can get Infected as quickly as possible... But that's different to where we started which was zero covid, followed by protect the nhs. And whatever approach we took... You can guarantee a fairly big minority would moan and ignore it anyway and do their own sweet thing. | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Tend to agree there are differences and you've rightly mentioned some, another has been the speed at which decisions have been taken.. NZ and Australia have acted far more decisively and clearly than our own leadership.. I agree on the speed of decisions, for me that was a key factor. M has friends in NZ and chats on one of their forums. It seems that the population of NZ were more compliant with their guidelines too. We saw/see very little "I'm not wearing a mask because" and "It's all a conspiracy" nonsense. People seemed to accept the guidines with a lot more good grace and will than over here. I appreciate it's only a snapshot of the population, but we saw a lot less argument and dissent. E " A good point, we do seem to have some and pro rata that will be a higher number than countries with lower populations whose sense of entitlement or even selfishness perhaps who don't see society as a collective that involves them with such things.. Probably always been the case and such events ditto times of conflict highlight such things.. | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Tend to agree there are differences and you've rightly mentioned some, another has been the speed at which decisions have been taken.. NZ and Australia have acted far more decisively and clearly than our own leadership.. I agree on the speed of decisions, for me that was a key factor. M has friends in NZ and chats on one of their forums. It seems that the population of NZ were more compliant with their guidelines too. We saw/see very little "I'm not wearing a mask because" and "It's all a conspiracy" nonsense. People seemed to accept the guidines with a lot more good grace and will than over here. I appreciate it's only a snapshot of the population, but we saw a lot less argument and dissent. E A good point, we do seem to have some and pro rata that will be a higher number than countries with lower populations whose sense of entitlement or even selfishness perhaps who don't see society as a collective that involves them with such things.. Probably always been the case and such events ditto times of conflict highlight such things.." | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. " Well said. I am sick and tired of hearing how we should be like NZ. Sweden or such like. You can't Compare on any scale. | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic " The reality is we haven’t had the option of following Jacindas approach for well over a year. NZ went very hard at covid the minute it arrived at a point where they could track and eradicate the virus from the population. We on the other hand cannot hope to reach that stage, we have the virus spread throughout the country and regardless of ‘world beating app’, £64billion of track and trace investment the reality is you can’t do what needs to be done each day with thousands of new cases. We are where we are, we have to work with that alternative. I agree that NZ’s management has been exceptional but it’s not a policy or approach we can copy. That option went out of the window a good month before Boris eventually implemented our lockdown and ever since it’s been an impossibility. | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. " She also said there is no such thing as society tbf | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic The reality is we haven’t had the option of following Jacindas approach for well over a year. NZ went very hard at covid the minute it arrived at a point where they could track and eradicate the virus from the population. We on the other hand cannot hope to reach that stage, we have the virus spread throughout the country and regardless of ‘world beating app’, £64billion of track and trace investment the reality is you can’t do what needs to be done each day with thousands of new cases. We are where we are, we have to work with that alternative. I agree that NZ’s management has been exceptional but it’s not a policy or approach we can copy. That option went out of the window a good month before Boris eventually implemented our lockdown and ever since it’s been an impossibility. " So do you believe it was an option before then? | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf" Sure.. Sort of.. I think its important to read the full quote. Because it is often misunderstood and or misrepresented ... Here it is.. "They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." – in an interview in Women's Own in 1987" | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf Sure.. Sort of.. I think its important to read the full quote. Because it is often misunderstood and or misrepresented ... Here it is.. "They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." – in an interview in Women's Own in 1987" " In all fairness how they stand up and talk about personal responsibility about what happened with Hancock and Cummings, not to mention Johnson, is quite an achievement. | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf" As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up." She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white "I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important? | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?"Not to some it seems. | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?"Of course..she was talking about individualism. And clearly said there is no such thing as society But we all know Tories are very hot on I'm alright jack..fuck everyone else. | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?"Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important... | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important... "Exactly | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Of course..she was talking about individualism.
And clearly said there is no such thing as society
But we all know Tories are very hot on I'm alright jack..fuck everyone else."It's funny you say Tories are 'I'm alright Jack, fuck everyone else'. Did you miss the bit in that statement where she says 'help our neighbour'? Doesn't sound very 'fuck everyone else' | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important... "So tell me what she meant? | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Of course..she was talking about individualism.
And clearly said there is no such thing as society
But we all know Tories are very hot on I'm alright jack..fuck everyone else.
It's funny you say Tories are 'I'm alright Jack, fuck everyone else'. Did you miss the bit in that statement where she says 'help our neighbour'?
Doesn't sound very 'fuck everyone else'"Good point If thatcher stood for anything it was a collective sense of altruism | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?"It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people. | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people. "And what about society? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people. "What if you camt look after yourself? What if you are sick?homeless?poor? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?"She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society"I'll ask the same question What if you camt look after yourself? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
What if you camt look after yourself?
What if you are sick?homeless?poor?"That's where your metaphorical neighbours come in.. As clearly stated... Look after yourself and your neighbours. As you said... In black and white. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society
I'll ask the same question
What if you camt look after yourself?"'Look after your neighbour' 'family' etc etc. Governement should only have to step in as a last resort. I don't expect you to agree with me but that's how I see it. It's also how I choose to live my life and its faired me quite well so far. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
What if you camt look after yourself?
What if you are sick?homeless?poor?
That's where your metaphorical neighbours come in.. As clearly stated... Look after yourself and your neighbours. As you said... In black and white. "So if you are left homeless or cant feed your family,the society has no responsibility to help you? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
What if you camt look after yourself?
What if you are sick?homeless?poor?
That's where your metaphorical neighbours come in.. As clearly stated... Look after yourself and your neighbours. As you said... In black and white.
So if you are left homeless or cant feed your family,the society has no responsibility to help you?"That's not what was said at all. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society
I'll ask the same question
What if you camt look after yourself?
'Look after your neighbour' 'family' etc etc. Governement should only have to step in as a last resort.
I don't expect you to agree with me but that's how I see it. It's also how I choose to live my life and its faired me quite well so far."I'd prefer to live in a society that has a safety bey to protect its most vulnerable tbh | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society
I'll ask the same question
What if you camt look after yourself?
'Look after your neighbour' 'family' etc etc. Governement should only have to step in as a last resort.
I don't expect you to agree with me but that's how I see it. It's also how I choose to live my life and its faired me quite well so far.
I'd prefer to live in a society that has a safety bey to protect its most vulnerable tbh"Yep. We agree on that. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society
I'll ask the same question
What if you camt look after yourself?
'Look after your neighbour' 'family' etc etc. Governement should only have to step in as a last resort.
I don't expect you to agree with me but that's how I see it. It's also how I choose to live my life and its faired me quite well so far.
I'd prefer to live in a society that has a safety bey to protect its most vulnerable tbh"That safety net should be government, but, as a last resort as I said previously | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
What if you camt look after yourself?
What if you are sick?homeless?poor?
That's where your metaphorical neighbours come in.. As clearly stated... Look after yourself and your neighbours. As you said... In black and white.
So if you are left homeless or cant feed your family,the society has no responsibility to help you?
That's not what was said at all. "It's our duty to look after ourselves Thats exactly what she meant She believed in individualism and she wanted to roll back the state (or was that misquoted too?) | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society
I'll ask the same question
What if you camt look after yourself?
'Look after your neighbour' 'family' etc etc. Governement should only have to step in as a last resort.
I don't expect you to agree with me but that's how I see it. It's also how I choose to live my life and its faired me quite well so far.
I'd prefer to live in a society that has a safety bey to protect its most vulnerable tbh
That safety net should be government, but, as a last resort as I said previously"It doesnt matter it's a last resort or 1st It should be there And that's what she meant when.she said there is no such thing as society. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society
I'll ask the same question
What if you camt look after yourself?
'Look after your neighbour' 'family' etc etc. Governement should only have to step in as a last resort.
I don't expect you to agree with me but that's how I see it. It's also how I choose to live my life and its faired me quite well so far.
I'd prefer to live in a society that has a safety bey to protect its most vulnerable tbh
That safety net should be government, but, as a last resort as I said previously
It doesnt matter it's a last resort or 1st
It should be there
And that's what she meant when.she said there is no such thing as society."Did governement under Thatcher pay social benefit? It matters a lot whether its a last resort or a 1st resort. You seem to be cherry picking words again. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society
I'll ask the same question
What if you camt look after yourself?
'Look after your neighbour' 'family' etc etc. Governement should only have to step in as a last resort.
I don't expect you to agree with me but that's how I see it. It's also how I choose to live my life and its faired me quite well so far.
I'd prefer to live in a society that has a safety bey to protect its most vulnerable tbh
That safety net should be government, but, as a last resort as I said previously
It doesnt matter it's a last resort or 1st
It should be there
And that's what she meant when.she said there is no such thing as society.
Did governement under Thatcher pay social benefit?
It matters a lot whether its a last resort or a 1st resort.
You seem to be cherry picking words again."No I'm not. You are arguing the toss that she didnt mean there was no such thing as society,when.she was clearly meaning people shouldmt really on the state. When that's exactly what it means. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"And, as vaccination is the best way out of this, I don't think NZ are doing so well at the moment." Looks to me like NZ are doing very well. They have no covid, they are actually opening up extra trade routes, they are not starving. They have the luxury of time to wait and see just how vaccination works out for UK, EU, USA, then pick the best option to follow. They will come out of this with a somewhat depressed economy through diminished international personal travel, but it's not as if they have stopped any other trade - have you seen any scarcity of New Zealand wines on the supermarket shelves? Fact is that the vast majority of their trade in and out involves unaccompanied transport of goods by container ships, so has had only minor disruption. Meanwhile they haven't had to bankrupt their economy on lockdowns, furlough money, sick leave, massive health expenditure. And they haven't had 130,000 dead people. Most likely outcome that I can see is that over the next 20 years, the economic hub of the world will move to the pacific states - NZ, Australia, China, Japan, Korea - who have managed to control covid and prevent their countries from suffering economic ruin and social disintegration. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society
I'll ask the same question
What if you camt look after yourself?
'Look after your neighbour' 'family' etc etc. Governement should only have to step in as a last resort.
I don't expect you to agree with me but that's how I see it. It's also how I choose to live my life and its faired me quite well so far.
I'd prefer to live in a society that has a safety bey to protect its most vulnerable tbh
That safety net should be government, but, as a last resort as I said previously
It doesnt matter it's a last resort or 1st
It should be there
And that's what she meant when.she said there is no such thing as society.
Did governement under Thatcher pay social benefit?
It matters a lot whether its a last resort or a 1st resort.
You seem to be cherry picking words again.
No I'm not.
You are arguing the toss that she didnt mean there was no such thing as society,when.she was clearly meaning people shouldmt really on the state.
When that's exactly what it means."I'm not arguing toss over that. If you read my words, I said there is only society if men and women so choose to make a society. Without individuals choosing to do so, there is no society. That is what she said, its also what she meant. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"And, as vaccination is the best way out of this, I don't think NZ are doing so well at the moment. Looks to me like NZ are doing very well. They have no covid, they are actually opening up extra trade routes, they are not starving. They have the luxury of time to wait and see just how vaccination works out for UK, EU, USA, then pick the best option to follow. They will come out of this with a somewhat depressed economy through diminished international personal travel, but it's not as if they have stopped any other trade - have you seen any scarcity of New Zealand wines on the supermarket shelves? Fact is that the vast majority of their trade in and out involves unaccompanied transport of goods by container ships, so has had only minor disruption. Meanwhile they haven't had to bankrupt their economy on lockdowns, furlough money, sick leave, massive health expenditure. And they haven't had 130,000 dead people. Most likely outcome that I can see is that over the next 20 years, the economic hub of the world will move to the pacific states - NZ, Australia, China, Japan, Korea - who have managed to control covid and prevent their countries from suffering economic ruin and social disintegration." Exactly unaccompanied freight i am trying to find out from those who think we should have used the NZ model how we would have fed the nation got the medicines we needed when so reliant on cross channel accompanied freight. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society
I'll ask the same question
What if you camt look after yourself?
'Look after your neighbour' 'family' etc etc. Governement should only have to step in as a last resort.
I don't expect you to agree with me but that's how I see it. It's also how I choose to live my life and its faired me quite well so far.
I'd prefer to live in a society that has a safety bey to protect its most vulnerable tbh
That safety net should be government, but, as a last resort as I said previously
It doesnt matter it's a last resort or 1st
It should be there
And that's what she meant when.she said there is no such thing as society.
Did governement under Thatcher pay social benefit?
It matters a lot whether its a last resort or a 1st resort.
You seem to be cherry picking words again.
No I'm not.
You are arguing the toss that she didnt mean there was no such thing as society,when.she was clearly meaning people shouldmt really on the state.
When that's exactly what it means.
I'm not arguing toss over that. If you read my words, I said there is only society if men and women so choose to make a society. Without individuals choosing to do so, there is no society. That is what she said, its also what she meant."She meant everyone should look after themselves and the state should have as little responsibility as possible | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society
I'll ask the same question
What if you camt look after yourself?
'Look after your neighbour' 'family' etc etc. Governement should only have to step in as a last resort.
I don't expect you to agree with me but that's how I see it. It's also how I choose to live my life and its faired me quite well so far.
I'd prefer to live in a society that has a safety bey to protect its most vulnerable tbh
That safety net should be government, but, as a last resort as I said previously
It doesnt matter it's a last resort or 1st
It should be there
And that's what she meant when.she said there is no such thing as society.
Did governement under Thatcher pay social benefit?
It matters a lot whether its a last resort or a 1st resort.
You seem to be cherry picking words again.
No I'm not.
You are arguing the toss that she didnt mean there was no such thing as society,when.she was clearly meaning people shouldmt really on the state.
When that's exactly what it means.
I'm not arguing toss over that. If you read my words, I said there is only society if men and women so choose to make a society. Without individuals choosing to do so, there is no society. That is what she said, its also what she meant.
She meant everyone should look after themselves and the state should have as little responsibility as possible
"I've popped a post in politics as I think it's more suitable. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society
I'll ask the same question
What if you camt look after yourself?
'Look after your neighbour' 'family' etc etc. Governement should only have to step in as a last resort.
I don't expect you to agree with me but that's how I see it. It's also how I choose to live my life and its faired me quite well so far.
I'd prefer to live in a society that has a safety bey to protect its most vulnerable tbh
That safety net should be government, but, as a last resort as I said previously
It doesnt matter it's a last resort or 1st
It should be there
And that's what she meant when.she said there is no such thing as society.
Did governement under Thatcher pay social benefit?
It matters a lot whether its a last resort or a 1st resort.
You seem to be cherry picking words again.
No I'm not.
You are arguing the toss that she didnt mean there was no such thing as society,when.she was clearly meaning people shouldmt really on the state.
When that's exactly what it means.
I'm not arguing toss over that. If you read my words, I said there is only society if men and women so choose to make a society. Without individuals choosing to do so, there is no society. That is what she said, its also what she meant.
She meant everyone should look after themselves and the state should have as little responsibility as possible
I've popped a post in politics as I think it's more suitable. "Probably best as someone who couldnt answer a simple question on the op has managed to derail the thread to thatcher.  | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf As part of a wider statement she did say that. I'm sure you know the statement. If not, you should look it up. She still said there is no such thing as society It's there in black and white
I don't disagree. However, dont you think context is quite important?
Noooo.....cheery picking half a sentence and painting it with entirely the opposite sentiment is far more important...
So tell me what she meant?
It's our duty to look after ourselves and our neighbours. And that governments are powerless without the support of the people.
And what about society?
She is right. The individual men and women choose to make up society. Without individual men and women choosing to do so, there is no society
I'll ask the same question
What if you camt look after yourself?
'Look after your neighbour' 'family' etc etc. Governement should only have to step in as a last resort.
I don't expect you to agree with me but that's how I see it. It's also how I choose to live my life and its faired me quite well so far.
I'd prefer to live in a society that has a safety bey to protect its most vulnerable tbh
Yep. We agree on that. "Would you like to point out you 1st mentioned thatcher and I responded or shall we just ignore it? | |||
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"Oh dear, this again. Nobody except Boris Johnson is responsible for anything ever, you want to cough all over your neighbour? Go ahead, blame Boris, fancy going to a rave after testing positive for covid? Go for it, you can blame Boris. There's no personal responsibility anymore, we can all.... JUST BLAME BORIS! " This. E | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. " Totally agree on the above also with a population of 5 million, 2 islands where the south Island is very sparsely populated comparing the both is pointless. | |||
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"And, as vaccination is the best way out of this, I don't think NZ are doing so well at the moment. Looks to me like NZ are doing very well. They have no covid, they are actually opening up extra trade routes, they are not starving. They have the luxury of time to wait and see just how vaccination works out for UK, EU, USA, then pick the best option to follow. They will come out of this with a somewhat depressed economy through diminished international personal travel, but it's not as if they have stopped any other trade - have you seen any scarcity of New Zealand wines on the supermarket shelves? Fact is that the vast majority of their trade in and out involves unaccompanied transport of goods by container ships, so has had only minor disruption. Meanwhile they haven't had to bankrupt their economy on lockdowns, furlough money, sick leave, massive health expenditure. And they haven't had 130,000 dead people. Most likely outcome that I can see is that over the next 20 years, the economic hub of the world will move to the pacific states - NZ, Australia, China, Japan, Korea - who have managed to control covid and prevent their countries from suffering economic ruin and social disintegration.Exactly unaccompanied freight i am trying to find out from those who think we should have used the NZ model how we would have fed the nation got the medicines we needed when so reliant on cross channel accompanied freight. "Would not have been so difficult to convert to unaccompanied freight, or change-of-driver freight. Articulated lorry comes to UK and goes to one of the nice big lorry parks we've built in Kent for brexit, French driver stays in cab. Trailer is unhooked from cab, cab collects a new trailer to take back to France, French driver still never stepped outside the cab. British driver in British cab who has just delivered next trailer from Yorkshire to Kent, picks up trailer that has just come from France, takes it up to Yorkshire. Easy. Just a bit of logistics. It's not as if we didn't have any warning of covid... | |||
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"The first step was the quality of the leader that got elected
We could have followed a plan (if we didn't have a dithering blob) that pursued zero covid. But allowed any and all people to come from hotspots, without tracking people down - thus hundreds of localised breeding grounds were seeded.
We chose dithering and indecision. NZ chose quick, effective action.
The more we delayed, the bigger the problem we allowed to be created and thus the longer we had to endure restrictions. This doesn't relate to the type of island etc that we are.
To be fair to Johnson he was fully prepared to go on the sooty show and get injected live on air to prove it wasnt dangerous.
Do you see any other world leaders doing that?
That's dedication for you
"That was likely only if he could put his hand up Sue | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf Sure.. Sort of.. I think its important to read the full quote. Because it is often misunderstood and or misrepresented ... Here it is.. "They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." – in an interview in Women's Own in 1987" In all fairness how they stand up and talk about personal responsibility about what happened with Hancock and Cummings, not to mention Johnson, is quite an achievement. " The shifting of responsibilities on to the public, is yet another of their eagerness to lose, in the publics' minds their atrocious management of the whole catastrophe. Far better to have the public pointing fingers at each other, then at chronic poor judgment, decisions, extreme hesitancy to do anything etc. They like that we have goldfish memories and attitudes spans. The UK had ample warning to the pending potential crisis, when Italy and other countries had 2 or 3 weeks lead time on the UK, as their health services etc got overloaded. Whilst other countries took steps to limit the potential incoming virus hazards, we allowed travellers to bring it in, without any restrictions having been put in place, despite the notice that we had. More than a year later, we had still not learned from that, when allowing tens of thousands in from India. Adding such gravely dangerous travellers to jeopardise the lives and health of people here, when we had been making some good recovery progress, when we were unnecessarily repeating our earliest mistake, was a heinous breach of moral responsibility No country had to do exactly the same as others, such as copying New Zealands strategy but we instead went in the opposite direction, repeating others' mistakes and, for good measure, repeating our own worst mistakes after more than a year. People complain about how England has restricted people and life here. Much of that was avoidable, having taken fully avoidable and wrong decisions beforehand. Many countries haven't had many months long multiple periods of partial national lockdowns. Others have acted quickly and effectively, sometimes with much stronger lockdowns or restrictions but for shorter periods, because they took effective action. The damage to the UK economy is amongst the worst in the larger economies. To damage public health, to have lost so many lives and to have had such economic mismanagement, whilst squandering £billions via cronies, isn't the mark of a reputable leadership team. It's no surprise that divide and conquer is deployed again, to deflect attention away from the mortally bankrupt | |||
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"When asked about Whether New Zealand would follow the UKs “living with covid” approach…. Jacinda Arden politely said… na, not doing that ( okay I paraphrased that a little!) So bearing in mind that nz had 26 covid deaths… and the uk 127,000 covid deaths… and jacinda is about the most popular politician in the world Should we not take be following their leads as an example of a success story on how to deal with a pandemic The reality is we haven’t had the option of following Jacindas approach for well over a year. NZ went very hard at covid the minute it arrived at a point where they could track and eradicate the virus from the population. We on the other hand cannot hope to reach that stage, we have the virus spread throughout the country and regardless of ‘world beating app’, £64billion of track and trace investment the reality is you can’t do what needs to be done each day with thousands of new cases. We are where we are, we have to work with that alternative. I agree that NZ’s management has been exceptional but it’s not a policy or approach we can copy. That option went out of the window a good month before Boris eventually implemented our lockdown and ever since it’s been an impossibility. So do you believe it was an option before then?" It was probably a month - 6 weeks prior to our first lockdown but would have required drastic action regarding movements and importantly incoming traffic to the U.K. I think NZ where unique in the fact they listened to their scientists and took their guidance without challenge or importantly any delay. It’s very easy to retrospectively judge our government now we can see the true impact both economically and in death toll but the view at the time was we would perhaps lose 20,000 people. As soon as we had cases in the 1,000’s there was no way back. | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf Sure.. Sort of.. I think its important to read the full quote. Because it is often misunderstood and or misrepresented ... Here it is.. "They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." – in an interview in Women's Own in 1987" In all fairness how they stand up and talk about personal responsibility about what happened with Hancock and Cummings, not to mention Johnson, is quite an achievement. The shifting of responsibilities on to the public, is yet another of their eagerness to lose, in the publics' minds their atrocious management of the whole catastrophe. Far better to have the public pointing fingers at each other, then at chronic poor judgment, decisions, extreme hesitancy to do anything etc. They like that we have goldfish memories and attitudes spans. The UK had ample warning to the pending potential crisis, when Italy and other countries had 2 or 3 weeks lead time on the UK, as their health services etc got overloaded. Whilst other countries took steps to limit the potential incoming virus hazards, we allowed travellers to bring it in, without any restrictions having been put in place, despite the notice that we had. More than a year later, we had still not learned from that, when allowing tens of thousands in from India. Adding such gravely dangerous travellers to jeopardise the lives and health of people here, when we had been making some good recovery progress, when we were unnecessarily repeating our earliest mistake, was a heinous breach of moral responsibility No country had to do exactly the same as others, such as copying New Zealands strategy but we instead went in the opposite direction, repeating others' mistakes and, for good measure, repeating our own worst mistakes after more than a year. People complain about how England has restricted people and life here. Much of that was avoidable, having taken fully avoidable and wrong decisions beforehand. Many countries haven't had many months long multiple periods of partial national lockdowns. Others have acted quickly and effectively, sometimes with much stronger lockdowns or restrictions but for shorter periods, because they took effective action. The damage to the UK economy is amongst the worst in the larger economies. To damage public health, to have lost so many lives and to have had such economic mismanagement, whilst squandering £billions via cronies, isn't the mark of a reputable leadership team. It's no surprise that divide and conquer is deployed again, to deflect attention away from the mortally bankrupt"
Absolutely spot on | |||
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"As thatcher said... "And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." No policy works unless it's backed and believed by the people. It's hard to invest in a policy with leaders ever dwindling credibility. But it's catch 22 unless someone comes up with any better ideas. Which are, as this forum shows, very absent. She also said there is no such thing as society tbf Sure.. Sort of.. I think its important to read the full quote. Because it is often misunderstood and or misrepresented ... Here it is.. "They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." – in an interview in Women's Own in 1987" In all fairness how they stand up and talk about personal responsibility about what happened with Hancock and Cummings, not to mention Johnson, is quite an achievement. The shifting of responsibilities on to the public, is yet another of their eagerness to lose, in the publics' minds their atrocious management of the whole catastrophe. Far better to have the public pointing fingers at each other, then at chronic poor judgment, decisions, extreme hesitancy to do anything etc. They like that we have goldfish memories and attitudes spans. The UK had ample warning to the pending potential crisis, when Italy and other countries had 2 or 3 weeks lead time on the UK, as their health services etc got overloaded. Whilst other countries took steps to limit the potential incoming virus hazards, we allowed travellers to bring it in, without any restrictions having been put in place, despite the notice that we had. More than a year later, we had still not learned from that, when allowing tens of thousands in from India. Adding such gravely dangerous travellers to jeopardise the lives and health of people here, when we had been making some good recovery progress, when we were unnecessarily repeating our earliest mistake, was a heinous breach of moral responsibility No country had to do exactly the same as others, such as copying New Zealands strategy but we instead went in the opposite direction, repeating others' mistakes and, for good measure, repeating our own worst mistakes after more than a year. People complain about how England has restricted people and life here. Much of that was avoidable, having taken fully avoidable and wrong decisions beforehand. Many countries haven't had many months long multiple periods of partial national lockdowns. Others have acted quickly and effectively, sometimes with much stronger lockdowns or restrictions but for shorter periods, because they took effective action. The damage to the UK economy is amongst the worst in the larger economies. To damage public health, to have lost so many lives and to have had such economic mismanagement, whilst squandering £billions via cronies, isn't the mark of a reputable leadership team. It's no surprise that divide and conquer is deployed again, to deflect attention away from the mortally bankrupt"
The gmnt sets the rules.
The highest members of the gmnt consistently break the rules.
The gmnt then place of the onus of responsibility on the individual.
Its supporters then already been to criticise people not taking responsibility.
Divide and conquer only works when you have plenty of people who are quite happy to believe the shit they spin.which there are obviously are.
Hence the countless arguments put forward to try and excuse the way a group of chimps could have handled this better ,than that shower of charlatans. | |||
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"As the horse frolics across the field someone closes the stable door." However someone suggested that the horse may find greener juicer grass on the field the other side of the farm after a long trudge the horse discovered that the grass was just as dry proof that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason" What liberties have you had crushed? E | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason" Absolutely. The sheep have willingly done as they’ve been told under the guise it’s in their and their fellow citizens best interests & in doing so have enabled governments behaviour. A precedent has now been set. You reap what you sow. | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason What liberties have you had crushed? E" Have you noticed how we haven't been able to go out? Or travel? Or only breathe air through masks? | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason What liberties have you had crushed? E Have you noticed how we haven't been able to go out? Or travel? Or only breathe air through masks?" Or get married, be with loved ones as they die, attend funerals, have essential medical treatment cancelled, go to work, run a business…the list is endless. That some couples think because their lives haven’t changed that much there’s nothing to the restrictions is obscenely out of touch with reality. | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason What liberties have you had crushed? E Have you noticed how we haven't been able to go out? Or travel? Or only breathe air through masks?" Have you noticed all those people outside? And the ones travelling? And all those people who have total freedom to have a naked face, absolutely anytime that they aren't breathing on other people? If you come coughing on me and shouting about freedom, don't be surprised if I piss on your shoes and shout about my freedom. | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason What liberties have you had crushed? E Have you noticed how we haven't been able to go out? Or travel? Or only breathe air through masks? Have you noticed all those people outside? And the ones travelling? And all those people who have total freedom to have a naked face, absolutely anytime that they aren't breathing on other people? If you come coughing on me and shouting about freedom, don't be surprised if I piss on your shoes and shout about my freedom." The government is employing behavioural psychologists which is resulting in public aggression. It should be resisted | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason What liberties have you had crushed? E Have you noticed how we haven't been able to go out? Or travel? Or only breathe air through masks?" However in the real world, we've been able to go out and travel. There are literally hundreds of places we could go and not wear a face mask. These "erosions of our liberty" (sic) were temporary and will be lifted in the main in a few days time. Those "erosions" of our liberty were for the benefit of the wider community. Did you catch Covid? I'm guessing not or you wouldn't be spouting such drivel. And the reason you didn't catch it would be guess what? E | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason What liberties have you had crushed? E Have you noticed how we haven't been able to go out? Or travel? Or only breathe air through masks? However in the real world, we've been able to go out and travel. There are literally hundreds of places we could go and not wear a face mask. These "erosions of our liberty" (sic) were temporary and will be lifted in the main in a few days time. Those "erosions" of our liberty were for the benefit of the wider community. Did you catch Covid? I'm guessing not or you wouldn't be spouting such drivel. And the reason you didn't catch it would be guess what? E " No abuse! I've also noticed the introduction of censorship on social media. Sceptics have also been removed from YouTube. Why would this happen in a free society. It's the expression of views! Also the employment by government of behavioural psychologists Compared to democracy this is all back to front. A frightening precedent has been set | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason What liberties have you had crushed? E Have you noticed how we haven't been able to go out? Or travel? Or only breathe air through masks? Have you noticed all those people outside? And the ones travelling? And all those people who have total freedom to have a naked face, absolutely anytime that they aren't breathing on other people? If you come coughing on me and shouting about freedom, don't be surprised if I piss on your shoes and shout about my freedom. The government is employing behavioural psychologists which is resulting in public aggression. It should be resisted" What utter utter nonsense and paranoia to the extreme. | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason What liberties have you had crushed? E Have you noticed how we haven't been able to go out? Or travel? Or only breathe air through masks? Have you noticed all those people outside? And the ones travelling? And all those people who have total freedom to have a naked face, absolutely anytime that they aren't breathing on other people? If you come coughing on me and shouting about freedom, don't be surprised if I piss on your shoes and shout about my freedom. The government is employing behavioural psychologists which is resulting in public aggression. It should be resisted What utter utter nonsense and paranoia to the extreme." What that I have said is untrue? The 'climate' extremists are already pushing for this | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. " Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason What liberties have you had crushed? E Have you noticed how we haven't been able to go out? Or travel? Or only breathe air through masks? However in the real world, we've been able to go out and travel. There are literally hundreds of places we could go and not wear a face mask. These "erosions of our liberty" (sic) were temporary and will be lifted in the main in a few days time. Those "erosions" of our liberty were for the benefit of the wider community. Did you catch Covid? I'm guessing not or you wouldn't be spouting such drivel. And the reason you didn't catch it would be guess what? E No abuse! I've also noticed the introduction of censorship on social media. Sceptics have also been removed from YouTube. Why would this happen in a free society. It's the expression of views! Also the employment by government of behavioural psychologists Compared to democracy this is all back to front. A frightening precedent has been set" Where's the abuse?
I've seen the social media censorship. Rightly so. The outright lies, frankly dangerous garbage and deliberate missinformation spouted on social media should be buried.
I wish Fab operated the same policy.
E | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. " Are you suggesting that New Zealanders are more sensible because they have a less diverse population than the UK and minorities are less likely to follow the rules? | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. " What a strange person. | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. " why wish you could be deported? If you have the skills another country want feel free to emigrate no one is keeping you in a country you seem to dislike so much | |||
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"Why bring racism into this?" Us vs them mentality is a low key form of prejudice. For the sake of all the boomers that don't like words that make them think to hard we will just call it that. It is the same mentality that has d*unk morons smashing each other's heads in over the wrong football shirt. Or two people in the street arguing over which violent monster gets to rule us for 4 years. If you use the words them and they all to offen. If you can't understand why all humans should be treated with the same respect as you think you are entitled to. Then you are prejudice. Oh my it looks like my nihilism horse just threw a shoe and I forgot the point. Just pretend I said something witty about Jordan Peterson and while you sit there thinking of a clever retort just ask yourself one question. Why are you still reading this. Hahahahahahahaha keep trolling trolling trolling trolling. | |||
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"Why bring racism into this? Us vs them mentality is a low key form of prejudice. For the sake of all the boomers that don't like words that make them think to hard we will just call it that. It is the same mentality that has d*unk morons smashing each other's heads in over the wrong football shirt. Or two people in the street arguing over which violent monster gets to rule us for 4 years. If you use the words them and they all to offen. If you can't understand why all humans should be treated with the same respect as you think you are entitled to. Then you are prejudice. Oh my it looks like my nihilism horse just threw a shoe and I forgot the point. Just pretend I said something witty about Jordan Peterson and while you sit there thinking of a clever retort just ask yourself one question. Why are you still reading this. Hahahahahahahaha keep trolling trolling trolling trolling." Are you saying that to be sceptical is to be racist? I'm genuit confused by this | |||
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"Why bring racism into this? Us vs them mentality is a low key form of prejudice. For the sake of all the boomers that don't like words that make them think to hard we will just call it that. It is the same mentality that has d*unk morons smashing each other's heads in over the wrong football shirt. Or two people in the street arguing over which violent monster gets to rule us for 4 years. If you use the words them and they all to offen. If you can't understand why all humans should be treated with the same respect as you think you are entitled to. Then you are prejudice. Oh my it looks like my nihilism horse just threw a shoe and I forgot the point. Just pretend I said something witty about Jordan Peterson and while you sit there thinking of a clever retort just ask yourself one question. Why are you still reading this. Hahahahahahahaha keep trolling trolling trolling trolling. Are you saying that to be sceptical is to be racist? I'm genuit confused by this" It is not, to be white is to be racist. After all our entire culture has been stolen from or built by people our ancestors stole from around the world. Great when we want something but fuck off now, we don't like foreigners here. Most xenophobic bunch of Aryans I have ever met and I spend time in Germany. | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason What liberties have you had crushed? E Have you noticed how we haven't been able to go out? Or travel? Or only breathe air through masks? However in the real world, we've been able to go out and travel. There are literally hundreds of places we could go and not wear a face mask. These "erosions of our liberty" (sic) were temporary and will be lifted in the main in a few days time. Those "erosions" of our liberty were for the benefit of the wider community. Did you catch Covid? I'm guessing not or you wouldn't be spouting such drivel. And the reason you didn't catch it would be guess what? E No abuse! I've also noticed the introduction of censorship on social media. Sceptics have also been removed from YouTube. Why would this happen in a free society. It's the expression of views! Also the employment by government of behavioural psychologists Compared to democracy this is all back to front. A frightening precedent has been set" Private businesses have always been able to set terms for using their services, including refusing custom. That the social media have done so, to prevent dangerous posting of misinformation, endangering the lives and well-being of others, is a good thing. You've never been able to put an advertisement in the press or on TV, encouraging the deaths of others. Promoting acts of terrorism that could result in multiple deaths and atrocities, is likewise curtailed. We have responsibilities towards others, as the government has for its citizens. You have had limited freedom for centuries. And you remain subject to the laws of the land. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Why bring racism into this? Us vs them mentality is a low key form of prejudice. For the sake of all the boomers that don't like words that make them think to hard we will just call it that. It is the same mentality that has d*unk morons smashing each other's heads in over the wrong football shirt. Or two people in the street arguing over which violent monster gets to rule us for 4 years. If you use the words them and they all to offen. If you can't understand why all humans should be treated with the same respect as you think you are entitled to. Then you are prejudice. Oh my it looks like my nihilism horse just threw a shoe and I forgot the point. Just pretend I said something witty about Jordan Peterson and while you sit there thinking of a clever retort just ask yourself one question. Why are you still reading this. Hahahahahahahaha keep trolling trolling trolling trolling. Are you saying that to be sceptical is to be racist? I'm genuit confused by this It is not, to be white is to be racist. After all our entire culture has been stolen from or built by people our ancestors stole from around the world. Great when we want something but fuck off now, we don't like foreigners here. Most xenophobic bunch of Aryans I have ever met and I spend time in Germany. " I've read some post's in my time but I'm bookmarking this as possibly the most unbelievably inflammatory and sweeping generalisation I've ever read. Just wow. "To be white is to be racist" Just wow! You seem to have a very distorted bitter view of the world. | |||
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"Does anyone else suspect that the coronavirus lockdown will be elided with a 'climate change' lockdown? After all, our political class has now realised that our liberties can be crushed if they have a 'good' reason What liberties have you had crushed? E Have you noticed how we haven't been able to go out? Or travel? Or only breathe air through masks? However in the real world, we've been able to go out and travel. There are literally hundreds of places we could go and not wear a face mask. These "erosions of our liberty" (sic) were temporary and will be lifted in the main in a few days time. Those "erosions" of our liberty were for the benefit of the wider community. Did you catch Covid? I'm guessing not or you wouldn't be spouting such drivel. And the reason you didn't catch it would be guess what? E No abuse! I've also noticed the introduction of censorship on social media. Sceptics have also been removed from YouTube. Why would this happen in a free society. It's the expression of views! Also the employment by government of behavioural psychologists Compared to democracy this is all back to front. A frightening precedent has been set Private businesses have always been able to set terms for using their services, including refusing custom. That the social media have done so, to prevent dangerous posting of misinformation, endangering the lives and well-being of others, is a good thing. You've never been able to put an advertisement in the press or on TV, encouraging the deaths of others. Promoting acts of terrorism that could result in multiple deaths and atrocities, is likewise curtailed. We have responsibilities towards others, as the government has for its citizens. You have had limited freedom for centuries. And you remain subject to the laws of the land. " Absolutely. How this gets wrapped up into "taking away our liberty" is beyond me. E | |||
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"Why bring racism into this? Us vs them mentality is a low key form of prejudice. For the sake of all the boomers that don't like words that make them think to hard we will just call it that. It is the same mentality that has d*unk morons smashing each other's heads in over the wrong football shirt. Or two people in the street arguing over which violent monster gets to rule us for 4 years. If you use the words them and they all to offen. If you can't understand why all humans should be treated with the same respect as you think you are entitled to. Then you are prejudice. Oh my it looks like my nihilism horse just threw a shoe and I forgot the point. Just pretend I said something witty about Jordan Peterson and while you sit there thinking of a clever retort just ask yourself one question. Why are you still reading this. Hahahahahahahaha keep trolling trolling trolling trolling. Are you saying that to be sceptical is to be racist? I'm genuit confused by this It is not, to be white is to be racist. After all our entire culture has been stolen from or built by people our ancestors stole from around the world. Great when we want something but fuck off now, we don't like foreigners here. Most xenophobic bunch of Aryans I have ever met and I spend time in Germany. I've read some post's in my time but I'm bookmarking this as possibly the most unbelievably inflammatory and sweeping generalisation I've ever read. Just wow. "To be white is to be racist" Just wow! You seem to have a very distorted bitter view of the world." Yep its pretty special aint it | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Why bring racism into this? Us vs them mentality is a low key form of prejudice. For the sake of all the boomers that don't like words that make them think to hard we will just call it that. It is the same mentality that has d*unk morons smashing each other's heads in over the wrong football shirt. Or two people in the street arguing over which violent monster gets to rule us for 4 years. If you use the words them and they all to offen. If you can't understand why all humans should be treated with the same respect as you think you are entitled to. Then you are prejudice. Oh my it looks like my nihilism horse just threw a shoe and I forgot the point. Just pretend I said something witty about Jordan Peterson and while you sit there thinking of a clever retort just ask yourself one question. Why are you still reading this. Hahahahahahahaha keep trolling trolling trolling trolling. Are you saying that to be sceptical is to be racist? I'm genuit confused by this It is not, to be white is to be racist. After all our entire culture has been stolen from or built by people our ancestors stole from around the world. Great when we want something but fuck off now, we don't like foreigners here. Most xenophobic bunch of Aryans I have ever met and I spend time in Germany. " Isn't judging an entire race based on their skin colour the basic definition of racism? | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. " Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested " I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now." I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. "
Well said.
People are quick to find fault but can rarely come up with a proper solution to the issues they raise. | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. " However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? | |||
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"Interesting news coming out of NZ lately. The Guardian is reporting that: "New Zealand children falling ill in high numbers…children haven't been exposed to range of bugs due to lockdowns, distancing and sanitiser and their immune systems are suffering…wards flooded by babies with a potentially-deadly respiratory virus. Who would have ever predicted that? " Funny that, when it's the people of New Zealand that have been carrying on their lives largely as normal for the last 18 months. You make it sound as if they have all been under house arrest throughout, when actually apart from their borders being closed for personal travel (but with trade continuing as normal) the people of NZ have enjoyed considerably more freedom than we have! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"?" You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"?" Nobody's locked you in... Unless you're residing at her majesties pleasure. I'm sure you are at liberty to leave. I don't disagree as a nation we are very divided and often times bitter. But it's within all of our gift to be more pleasant and tolerant. We don't need a government to tell us how to be. That said... 100 percent agree we are at times an unpleasant peoples and that a unity leadership focussing on rebuilding our spirit would be glorious, even if its a pipe dream. It's been a tough few years for everyone. And leaders are responsible for many things. But we can all take our own responsibility to be kind and law abiding and tolerant and fair with shared resources...or not. | |||
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"Interesting news coming out of NZ lately. The Guardian is reporting that: "New Zealand children falling ill in high numbers…children haven't been exposed to range of bugs due to lockdowns, distancing and sanitiser and their immune systems are suffering…wards flooded by babies with a potentially-deadly respiratory virus. Who would have ever predicted that? Funny that, when it's the people of New Zealand that have been carrying on their lives largely as normal for the last 18 months. You make it sound as if they have all been under house arrest throughout, when actually apart from their borders being closed for personal travel (but with trade continuing as normal) the people of NZ have enjoyed considerably more freedom than we have!" I don't know any of the details. We never previously had any idea of what was happening in nz and I don't think I really have my more idea now. But yes it would appear from the lens of the media that they have a brilliant leader to be proud of and have very low covid rates which they stamp on as soon as they see an outbreak. And from outside it looks wonderful. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. " You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country?" If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"?" You couldn't just turn up in, say, America or Japan and expect to live there They are independent countries. You could apply to be allowed to stay. They may let you, they may not. It's up to them. Britain is also now an independent country. You can apply to live in an EU country. They may let you, they may not. Britain is now the same. It seems fair to me | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. " Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Brexit means that 465m people no longer have a constitutional right to move here...with bad effects in pay, conditions, housing etc etc. The same happens in reverse. You can't have a welfare state that is open to 465m people. In what way is that wrong? Apart from for bad employers who love forcing down pay" When exactly did 465m come here? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move?" The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Brexit means that 465m people no longer have a constitutional right to move here...with bad effects in pay, conditions, housing etc etc. The same happens in reverse. You can't have a welfare state that is open to 465m people. In what way is that wrong? Apart from for bad employers who love forcing down pay When exactly did 465m come here?" The poster you're quoting didn't say 465m people came here. E | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! " I love it when questions don't get answered | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Brexit means that 465m people no longer have a constitutional right to move here...with bad effects in pay, conditions, housing etc etc. The same happens in reverse. You can't have a welfare state that is open to 465m people. In what way is that wrong? Apart from for bad employers who love forcing down pay When exactly did 465m come here? The poster you're quoting didn't say 465m people came here. E" He said brexit had been brought in to stop it happening. So I'll try again What is the likelihood that 465m are going to move here? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! I love it when questions don't get answered " Can a UK citizen go and live in another country? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. " Do i still have as much rights as i used to? Simple question. My passport used to give me the right of free movement across the borders of 27 nearby countries. That right has been replaced with a necessity for me to say at every border "pretty please, can i come and visit for a while, i promise that I'll go home again". Only in a totally upside down world where people have lost the good sense that they were born with is it possible to argue that my horizons have been widened by brexit, when quite plainly 27 countries are now less welcoming to me. No my right to leave the UK has not been taken away, but my rights to arrive at 27 other countries are considerably reduced, and that has been forced by actions of my country not the EU. No matter how much some people might want to rewrite history, brexit was not something imposed by the EU - or did i miss the news reports of 27 countries holding a referendum and by a very narrow margin voting to evict the United Kingdom? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Do i still have as much rights as i used to? Simple question. My passport used to give me the right of free movement across the borders of 27 nearby countries. That right has been replaced with a necessity for me to say at every border "pretty please, can i come and visit for a while, i promise that I'll go home again". Only in a totally upside down world where people have lost the good sense that they were born with is it possible to argue that my horizons have been widened by brexit, when quite plainly 27 countries are now less welcoming to me. No my right to leave the UK has not been taken away, but my rights to arrive at 27 other countries are considerably reduced, and that has been forced by actions of my country not the EU. No matter how much some people might want to rewrite history, brexit was not something imposed by the EU - or did i miss the news reports of 27 countries holding a referendum and by a very narrow margin voting to evict the United Kingdom?" Thats not in dispute. But thats what the majority of those that voted, decided thats what they wanted to happen. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! I love it when questions don't get answered Can a UK citizen go and live in another country? " Can a UK citizen go and freely live and work in 27 countries where they used to be able to? Can a tradesman from England just rock up in Frankfurt with his bag of tools and take employment at any building site that needs men? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! I love it when questions don't get answered Can a UK citizen go and live in another country? Can a UK citizen go and freely live and work in 27 countries where they used to be able to? Can a tradesman from England just rock up in Frankfurt with his bag of tools and take employment at any building site that needs men?" No and no but thats a seperate issue from someone wanting to leave the UK. Freedom of Movement was always going to go after Brexit was voted for. Just as EU citizens have had that right taken away in the UK. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Do i still have as much rights as i used to? Simple question. My passport used to give me the right of free movement across the borders of 27 nearby countries. That right has been replaced with a necessity for me to say at every border "pretty please, can i come and visit for a while, i promise that I'll go home again". Only in a totally upside down world where people have lost the good sense that they were born with is it possible to argue that my horizons have been widened by brexit, when quite plainly 27 countries are now less welcoming to me. No my right to leave the UK has not been taken away, but my rights to arrive at 27 other countries are considerably reduced, and that has been forced by actions of my country not the EU. No matter how much some people might want to rewrite history, brexit was not something imposed by the EU - or did i miss the news reports of 27 countries holding a referendum and by a very narrow margin voting to evict the United Kingdom? Thats not in dispute. But thats what the majority of those that voted, decided thats what they wanted to happen. " I'm not disputing the vote. There was a vote, I was there, I saw it happen. I just want to know whether the outcome of that has given me greater rights or removed some rights that I previously had. Simple question, can I have a simple answer please? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! I love it when questions don't get answered Can a UK citizen go and live in another country? Can a UK citizen go and freely live and work in 27 countries where they used to be able to? Can a tradesman from England just rock up in Frankfurt with his bag of tools and take employment at any building site that needs men? No and no but thats a seperate issue from someone wanting to leave the UK. Freedom of Movement was always going to go after Brexit was voted for. Just as EU citizens have had that right taken away in the UK. " Ah I see. I understand perfectly now. I am allowed to leave the UK any time I want - it's just my right to arrive at a bunch of other places that has been removed. I'll go sit in the sea then... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Do i still have as much rights as i used to? Simple question. My passport used to give me the right of free movement across the borders of 27 nearby countries. That right has been replaced with a necessity for me to say at every border "pretty please, can i come and visit for a while, i promise that I'll go home again". Only in a totally upside down world where people have lost the good sense that they were born with is it possible to argue that my horizons have been widened by brexit, when quite plainly 27 countries are now less welcoming to me. No my right to leave the UK has not been taken away, but my rights to arrive at 27 other countries are considerably reduced, and that has been forced by actions of my country not the EU. No matter how much some people might want to rewrite history, brexit was not something imposed by the EU - or did i miss the news reports of 27 countries holding a referendum and by a very narrow margin voting to evict the United Kingdom? Thats not in dispute. But thats what the majority of those that voted, decided thats what they wanted to happen. I'm not disputing the vote. There was a vote, I was there, I saw it happen. I just want to know whether the outcome of that has given me greater rights or removed some rights that I previously had. Simple question, can I have a simple answer please? " Just out of interest. In the last 5 years have you lived and worked in any of the 27 other countries? And if so what made you return to the UK? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Do i still have as much rights as i used to? Simple question. My passport used to give me the right of free movement across the borders of 27 nearby countries. That right has been replaced with a necessity for me to say at every border "pretty please, can i come and visit for a while, i promise that I'll go home again". Only in a totally upside down world where people have lost the good sense that they were born with is it possible to argue that my horizons have been widened by brexit, when quite plainly 27 countries are now less welcoming to me. No my right to leave the UK has not been taken away, but my rights to arrive at 27 other countries are considerably reduced, and that has been forced by actions of my country not the EU. No matter how much some people might want to rewrite history, brexit was not something imposed by the EU - or did i miss the news reports of 27 countries holding a referendum and by a very narrow margin voting to evict the United Kingdom? Thats not in dispute. But thats what the majority of those that voted, decided thats what they wanted to happen. I'm not disputing the vote. There was a vote, I was there, I saw it happen. I just want to know whether the outcome of that has given me greater rights or removed some rights that I previously had. Simple question, can I have a simple answer please? " You no longer have a automatic right to go and live in an EU country. Then again you've never had the right to just turn up in America, Japan etc. Is that wrong? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! I love it when questions don't get answered Can a UK citizen go and live in another country? Can a UK citizen go and freely live and work in 27 countries where they used to be able to? Can a tradesman from England just rock up in Frankfurt with his bag of tools and take employment at any building site that needs men? No and no but thats a seperate issue from someone wanting to leave the UK. Freedom of Movement was always going to go after Brexit was voted for. Just as EU citizens have had that right taken away in the UK. Ah I see. I understand perfectly now. I am allowed to leave the UK any time I want - it's just my right to arrive at a bunch of other places that has been removed. I'll go sit in the sea then..." Do you think you should just be able to turn up and live in America? Japan? Canada? Brazil? Mexico? Norway? Russia? | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! I love it when questions don't get answered Can a UK citizen go and live in another country? Can a UK citizen go and freely live and work in 27 countries where they used to be able to? Can a tradesman from England just rock up in Frankfurt with his bag of tools and take employment at any building site that needs men? No and no but thats a seperate issue from someone wanting to leave the UK. Freedom of Movement was always going to go after Brexit was voted for. Just as EU citizens have had that right taken away in the UK. Ah I see. I understand perfectly now. I am allowed to leave the UK any time I want - it's just my right to arrive at a bunch of other places that has been removed. I'll go sit in the sea then..." It hasn't been removed, you can still go to other countries. | |||
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"As my question clearly isnt going to be answered,it appears we have severely damaged ourselves economically and financially, to stop something happening,(millions of people coming here)that was never going to happen anyway. Absolute genius. " What question would you like me to answer? | |||
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"As my question clearly isnt going to be answered,it appears we have severely damaged ourselves economically and financially, to stop something happening,(millions of people coming here)that was never going to happen anyway. Absolute genius. What question would you like me to answer?" Would those millions of people come here? | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Do i still have as much rights as i used to? Simple question. My passport used to give me the right of free movement across the borders of 27 nearby countries. That right has been replaced with a necessity for me to say at every border "pretty please, can i come and visit for a while, i promise that I'll go home again". Only in a totally upside down world where people have lost the good sense that they were born with is it possible to argue that my horizons have been widened by brexit, when quite plainly 27 countries are now less welcoming to me. No my right to leave the UK has not been taken away, but my rights to arrive at 27 other countries are considerably reduced, and that has been forced by actions of my country not the EU. No matter how much some people might want to rewrite history, brexit was not something imposed by the EU - or did i miss the news reports of 27 countries holding a referendum and by a very narrow margin voting to evict the United Kingdom? Thats not in dispute. But thats what the majority of those that voted, decided thats what they wanted to happen. I'm not disputing the vote. There was a vote, I was there, I saw it happen. I just want to know whether the outcome of that has given me greater rights or removed some rights that I previously had. Simple question, can I have a simple answer please? You no longer have a automatic right to go and live in an EU country. Then again you've never had the right to just turn up in America, Japan etc. Is that wrong?" Never said that I did have any right to just turn up in America, Japan etc. But the right that I did have to just turn up in 27 places has been removed, not by action of those places, but by action of my own country. And it really doesn't matter whether I have actually visited any of those 27 countries recently or had planned to go there in the near future. What matters is that it is now a good deal harder for me to move to one of these places if I should want to, or my children to move to if they should want to. Have you visited say Scotland recently? Or thought about moving there? Let's assume you haven't. But how would you feel if suddenly you no longer had the right to go there, but instead had to ask Scotland for permission? And that the removal of your right to be in Scotland was not because of Scotland telling English people that they were no longer welcome there, but because of England telling Scottish people that they were no longer welcome here? Would you say, perfectly fine, it's not changed anything for me, my rights haven't been affected in any way? | |||
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"As my question clearly isnt going to be answered,it appears we have severely damaged ourselves economically and financially, to stop something happening,(millions of people coming here)that was never going to happen anyway. Absolute genius. What question would you like me to answer? Would those millions of people come here?" Easy. 6m at any one time actually did. You may know that all UK people in the EU...and vice versa ..now have to register their presence to protect their rights. 5.6m EU citizens have already said they are in the UK. The deadline has had to be extended and there will be over 6m when it is completed. That is only the ones here at the moment. Many others have been here and returned home over the years. No-one has ever said that all 465m are here. That's your red herring. What effect do you think a surplus of labour has on wages? On housing? On the NHS? | |||
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"As my question clearly isnt going to be answered,it appears we have severely damaged ourselves economically and financially, to stop something happening,(millions of people coming here)that was never going to happen anyway. Absolute genius. What question would you like me to answer? Would those millions of people come here? Easy. 6m at any one time actually did. You may know that all UK people in the EU...and vice versa ..now have to register their presence to protect their rights. 5.6m EU citizens have already said they are in the UK. The deadline has had to be extended and there will be over 6m when it is completed. That is only the ones here at the moment. Many others have been here and returned home over the years. No-one has ever said that all 465m are here. That's your red herring. What effect do you think a surplus of labour has on wages? On housing? On the NHS?" 6 million came from the eu to work here? Over what time period? Presumably the vast majority came here to work? And that's still 450m short of the number you provided. | |||
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"As my question clearly isnt going to be answered,it appears we have severely damaged ourselves economically and financially, to stop something happening,(millions of people coming here)that was never going to happen anyway. Absolute genius. What question would you like me to answer? Would those millions of people come here? Easy. 6m at any one time actually did. You may know that all UK people in the EU...and vice versa ..now have to register their presence to protect their rights. 5.6m EU citizens have already said they are in the UK. The deadline has had to be extended and there will be over 6m when it is completed. That is only the ones here at the moment. Many others have been here and returned home over the years. No-one has ever said that all 465m are here. That's your red herring. What effect do you think a surplus of labour has on wages? On housing? On the NHS? 6 million came from the eu to work here? Over what time period? Presumably the vast majority came here to work? And that's still 450m short of the number you provided." Over what time period? They're the ones that are in the UK now | |||
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"And how many people from here went abroad to work?" Approx 2m. The figures are freely available. Remainers claimed in the referendum that it was equal all round...they said 2.75m UK people were working in the EU and the same number of EU people were in the UK. Do you think they lied? What effect do you think this cheap labour has on wages and housing and the NHS? Will you answer my question? | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! I love it when questions don't get answered Can a UK citizen go and live in another country? Can a UK citizen go and freely live and work in 27 countries where they used to be able to? Can a tradesman from England just rock up in Frankfurt with his bag of tools and take employment at any building site that needs men? No and no but thats a seperate issue from someone wanting to leave the UK. Freedom of Movement was always going to go after Brexit was voted for. Just as EU citizens have had that right taken away in the UK. Ah I see. I understand perfectly now. I am allowed to leave the UK any time I want - it's just my right to arrive at a bunch of other places that has been removed. I'll go sit in the sea then... It hasn't been removed, you can still go to other countries. " I can ask to go to those countries and they may say yes. But previously I could just go there. At the moment you can just go anywhere you like in the United Kingdom without asking. Would your rights be reduced if you could no longer go to the next county any time you wanted, but instead if you wished to visit Staffordshire you had to ask permission and you could be told no. If you were no longer allowed to take a job in Scotland or Wales without any difficulty; you might still theoretically be allowed to work there, England wasn't saying no, but England had deliberately made it so that Scotland or Wales could turn you away if they wanted to. I find it totally incredible that we can currently have thousands of people make much noise about temporary restrictions placed upon them to protect public health, about how their "rights" are so denied when asked not to cough on other people. When we have so recently seen a huge and permanent reduction in the of rights of free movement, and of rights of appeal to a higher authority against abuses of power by our own government. It would be laughable if it wasn't for it being a tragedy for us and for our children and our grandchildren... | |||
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"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! I love it when questions don't get answered Can a UK citizen go and live in another country? Can a UK citizen go and freely live and work in 27 countries where they used to be able to? Can a tradesman from England just rock up in Frankfurt with his bag of tools and take employment at any building site that needs men? No and no but thats a seperate issue from someone wanting to leave the UK. Freedom of Movement was always going to go after Brexit was voted for. Just as EU citizens have had that right taken away in the UK. Ah I see. I understand perfectly now. I am allowed to leave the UK any time I want - it's just my right to arrive at a bunch of other places that has been removed. I'll go sit in the sea then... It hasn't been removed, you can still go to other countries. I can ask to go to those countries and they may say yes. But previously I could just go there. At the moment you can just go anywhere you like in the United Kingdom without asking. Would your rights be reduced if you could no longer go to the next county any time you wanted, but instead if you wished to visit Staffordshire you had to ask permission and you could be told no. If you were no longer allowed to take a job in Scotland or Wales without any difficulty; you might still theoretically be allowed to work there, England wasn't saying no, but England had deliberately made it so that Scotland or Wales could turn you away if they wanted to. I find it totally incredible that we can currently have thousands of people make much noise about temporary restrictions placed upon them to protect public health, about how their "rights" are so denied when asked not to cough on other people. When we have so recently seen a huge and permanent reduction in the of rights of free movement, and of rights of appeal to a higher authority against abuses of power by our own government. It would be laughable if it wasn't for it being a tragedy for us and for our children and our grandchildren..." Yes, you can go and live wherever you like in the UK. Is that relevant to this discussion? | |||
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"And, as vaccination is the best way out of this, I don't think NZ are doing so well at the moment." A friend of mine in NZ says that the vaccine issue is a sore point and a lot of people are pretty unhappy with how it’s being handled. | |||
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"And how many people from here went abroad to work? Approx 2m. The figures are freely available. Remainers claimed in the referendum that it was equal all round...they said 2.75m UK people were working in the EU and the same number of EU people were in the UK. Do you think they lied? What effect do you think this cheap labour has on wages and housing and the NHS? Will you answer my question?" Employers will always look for ways to pay as little as possible. If you think the likes of the boris Johnson and nigel farage pushed for Brexit was so workers could get better wages you are deluded. Do workers have the sane rights as when were in the eu? | |||
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"And how many people from here went abroad to work? Approx 2m. The figures are freely available. Remainers claimed in the referendum that it was equal all round...they said 2.75m UK people were working in the EU and the same number of EU people were in the UK. Do you think they lied? What effect do you think this cheap labour has on wages and housing and the NHS? Will you answer my question? Employers will always look for ways to pay as little as possible. If you think the likes of the boris Johnson and nigel farage pushed for Brexit was so workers could get better wages you are deluded. Do workers have the sane rights as when were in the eu?" Do you feel that the EU aided employers in forcing down their workers pay rates? | |||
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"And, as vaccination is the best way out of this, I don't think NZ are doing so well at the moment. A friend of mine in NZ says that the vaccine issue is a sore point and a lot of people are pretty unhappy with how it’s being handled. " I'm not surprised. Constant lockdowns are not a solution. | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! I love it when questions don't get answered Can a UK citizen go and live in another country? Can a UK citizen go and freely live and work in 27 countries where they used to be able to? Can a tradesman from England just rock up in Frankfurt with his bag of tools and take employment at any building site that needs men? No and no but thats a seperate issue from someone wanting to leave the UK. Freedom of Movement was always going to go after Brexit was voted for. Just as EU citizens have had that right taken away in the UK. Ah I see. I understand perfectly now. I am allowed to leave the UK any time I want - it's just my right to arrive at a bunch of other places that has been removed. I'll go sit in the sea then... It hasn't been removed, you can still go to other countries. I can ask to go to those countries and they may say yes. But previously I could just go there. At the moment you can just go anywhere you like in the United Kingdom without asking. Would your rights be reduced if you could no longer go to the next county any time you wanted, but instead if you wished to visit Staffordshire you had to ask permission and you could be told no. If you were no longer allowed to take a job in Scotland or Wales without any difficulty; you might still theoretically be allowed to work there, England wasn't saying no, but England had deliberately made it so that Scotland or Wales could turn you away if they wanted to. I find it totally incredible that we can currently have thousands of people make much noise about temporary restrictions placed upon them to protect public health, about how their "rights" are so denied when asked not to cough on other people. When we have so recently seen a huge and permanent reduction in the of rights of free movement, and of rights of appeal to a higher authority against abuses of power by our own government. It would be laughable if it wasn't for it being a tragedy for us and for our children and our grandchildren..." Aren't you allowed to visit say spain any more then? Gosh all those people clamouring to go on holiday are in for a rude awakening | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! I love it when questions don't get answered Can a UK citizen go and live in another country? Can a UK citizen go and freely live and work in 27 countries where they used to be able to? Can a tradesman from England just rock up in Frankfurt with his bag of tools and take employment at any building site that needs men? No and no but thats a seperate issue from someone wanting to leave the UK. Freedom of Movement was always going to go after Brexit was voted for. Just as EU citizens have had that right taken away in the UK. Ah I see. I understand perfectly now. I am allowed to leave the UK any time I want - it's just my right to arrive at a bunch of other places that has been removed. I'll go sit in the sea then... It hasn't been removed, you can still go to other countries. I can ask to go to those countries and they may say yes. But previously I could just go there. At the moment you can just go anywhere you like in the United Kingdom without asking. Would your rights be reduced if you could no longer go to the next county any time you wanted, but instead if you wished to visit Staffordshire you had to ask permission and you could be told no. If you were no longer allowed to take a job in Scotland or Wales without any difficulty; you might still theoretically be allowed to work there, England wasn't saying no, but England had deliberately made it so that Scotland or Wales could turn you away if they wanted to. I find it totally incredible that we can currently have thousands of people make much noise about temporary restrictions placed upon them to protect public health, about how their "rights" are so denied when asked not to cough on other people. When we have so recently seen a huge and permanent reduction in the of rights of free movement, and of rights of appeal to a higher authority against abuses of power by our own government. It would be laughable if it wasn't for it being a tragedy for us and for our children and our grandchildren... Aren't you allowed to visit say spain any more then? Gosh all those people clamouring to go on holiday are in for a rude awakening " Of course, but they may not let you in apparently. But, you don't have the automatic right to stay and work anymore, even though you never aspired to in the first place | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! I love it when questions don't get answered Can a UK citizen go and live in another country? Can a UK citizen go and freely live and work in 27 countries where they used to be able to? Can a tradesman from England just rock up in Frankfurt with his bag of tools and take employment at any building site that needs men? No and no but thats a seperate issue from someone wanting to leave the UK. Freedom of Movement was always going to go after Brexit was voted for. Just as EU citizens have had that right taken away in the UK. Ah I see. I understand perfectly now. I am allowed to leave the UK any time I want - it's just my right to arrive at a bunch of other places that has been removed. I'll go sit in the sea then... It hasn't been removed, you can still go to other countries. I can ask to go to those countries and they may say yes. But previously I could just go there. At the moment you can just go anywhere you like in the United Kingdom without asking. Would your rights be reduced if you could no longer go to the next county any time you wanted, but instead if you wished to visit Staffordshire you had to ask permission and you could be told no. If you were no longer allowed to take a job in Scotland or Wales without any difficulty; you might still theoretically be allowed to work there, England wasn't saying no, but England had deliberately made it so that Scotland or Wales could turn you away if they wanted to. I find it totally incredible that we can currently have thousands of people make much noise about temporary restrictions placed upon them to protect public health, about how their "rights" are so denied when asked not to cough on other people. When we have so recently seen a huge and permanent reduction in the of rights of free movement, and of rights of appeal to a higher authority against abuses of power by our own government. It would be laughable if it wasn't for it being a tragedy for us and for our children and our grandchildren..." But if you weren't planning to go there to live anyway, why are you annoyed? It hasn't affected you at all. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No the uk and Nz are two totally different entities, the Nz approach works well for them as they are not a world travel hub, have no near neighbours do not have a train link to a vast continent where goods are flowing daily you cannot compare the two. Dumb argument as always. The they aren't us argument is tired and stupid. If you mean they are a nation of much more sensible white people then sure. If you mean that their government treated people like grown ups and told them exactly what needed to be done and the nation did it then you are right again. But in all the ways that matter to a virus, we are exactly the same. As NZ whites are descendants of white Europeans and they have the union Jack on their flag they are culturally similar to us as well. But I suppose nationalism and racism is so entrenched that some of us can even attack another white nation just because they are not us. P.S. England sucks, being British is a disease and I wish I could be deported. Why did you come to Britain in the first place? Genuinely interested I may be mistaken, but I rather suspect that SazDaz are British by virtue of having being born in this country from ancestors who were also born in this country. Their PS is no doubt coming from the same kind of horror that many of us feel at the nationalism, racism, populism, xenophobia and all round general nastiness that this country has been descending into for at least thirty years. I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to say that if I feel that way, why don't I go somewhere else. However post Brexit my right to freely live in any of 27 neighbouring countries has been removed, and the residency requirements for most anywhere else are precluded by my age and financial capability, so I'm afraid that I am stuck here now. I agree with your observations that we have a growing spite and lack of love for our nation. Its ironic that then stating nobody else will take you (anyone else) so the only country that will provide safe haven and home is somehow more flawed than all the other countries that refuse to do the same thing. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... And if we all did a bit more giving and a bit less taking... We can make it a lot more pleasant culture and environment. However it isn't the countries of the EU that have locked me out. It is the actions of the current government that have removed those countries from the list of places that I am allowed to live. The UK is not somehow being a wonderful place that out of its immense loving heart "will provide safe haven and home" when no one else will take me. It is a place that has been taken over by a bunch of criminals riding a wave of intolerance that has been building through the latter half of my life, who are making the country that I love into an unpleasant place to be, where anybody that is in the slightest "other" can find it anything but a safe haven. It is the actions of the United Kingdom that have locked me in, not the European Union that has locked me out. Refering back to the OP topic of New Zealand's actions to keep their citizens safe during a deadly pandemic, why is it that so many here are unable to say "yes, actually they are doing quite well, I wish there was some way we could have been so successful in combatting a dangerous disease"? You can live in any country in the world, providing you meet their residency laws. You mean like holding a passport that gives residency in that country? Like my passport that allowed residency in my own country and 27 neighbouring states? That now only allows residency in my own country? If you are desperate to move, then you stillhave that right. But to say Brexit has taken that right away is plainly wrong. Has Brexit made it easier to harder for people to move? The issue was that it had stopped people residing in another country, not if it was easier or harder! I love it when questions don't get answered Can a UK citizen go and live in another country? Can a UK citizen go and freely live and work in 27 countries where they used to be able to? Can a tradesman from England just rock up in Frankfurt with his bag of tools and take employment at any building site that needs men? No and no but thats a seperate issue from someone wanting to leave the UK. Freedom of Movement was always going to go after Brexit was voted for. Just as EU citizens have had that right taken away in the UK. Ah I see. I understand perfectly now. I am allowed to leave the UK any time I want - it's just my right to arrive at a bunch of other places that has been removed. I'll go sit in the sea then... It hasn't been removed, you can still go to other countries. I can ask to go to those countries and they may say yes. But previously I could just go there. At the moment you can just go anywhere you like in the United Kingdom without asking. Would your rights be reduced if you could no longer go to the next county any time you wanted, but instead if you wished to visit Staffordshire you had to ask permission and you could be told no. If you were no longer allowed to take a job in Scotland or Wales without any difficulty; you might still theoretically be allowed to work there, England wasn't saying no, but England had deliberately made it so that Scotland or Wales could turn you away if they wanted to. I find it totally incredible that we can currently have thousands of people make much noise about temporary restrictions placed upon them to protect public health, about how their "rights" are so denied when asked not to cough on other people. When we have so recently seen a huge and permanent reduction in the of rights of free movement, and of rights of appeal to a higher authority against abuses of power by our own government. It would be laughable if it wasn't for it being a tragedy for us and for our children and our grandchildren... But if you weren't planning to go there to live anyway, why are you annoyed? It hasn't affected you at all. " So it wouldn't affect you if all the rights that you weren't actually using this minute, or planning to use imminently, were removed from you? Am I not allowed to be even slightly miffed that the opportunities for my children and grandchildren have been reduced? And am I not allowed to feel rather insulted when again and again I point out that some of my rights have been removed, only to be told that "no, you've still got all your rights, it's just that there's less things you are allowed to do". Literally all I am asking for is someone to acknowledge that UK citizens have now got fewer global rights than they had before brexit. There is now more paperwork, more cost, more difficulty, more possible reasons to be refused, for almost every single possible interaction of a UK citizen with the EU. Voices here keep telling me "you just have to do this extra thing, fill in this extra form, pay this extra money, obtain this extra permission" and then I can do something that was easier to do before. This is not greater freedom! And going back to the original point that was raised by SanDaz's comments somewhere way up above, this whole thing has been accompanied (or caused by?) an enabling of hate and xenophobia such that merely stating that I feel the UK is now a less welcoming place than it was during the first half of my life can bring about responses such as "why did you come here anyway then" (to people that have always lived here) or "well go live somewhere else then" (rather not, I've always lived here, but even if I did want to live somewhere else the vary events that I am commenting on have made it considerably more difficult to go). And back to the original OP way, way, way above, all this hate and xenophobia has made it such that people feel almost obliged to pour scorn on another country that has managed to keep its citizens relatively safe during a time of a global pandemic, rather than congratulating them on their better planning and fortune, and wondering whether there might be any part of their experience that could be used to improve circumstances here. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"And how many people from here went abroad to work? Approx 2m. The figures are freely available. Remainers claimed in the referendum that it was equal all round...they said 2.75m UK people were working in the EU and the same number of EU people were in the UK. Do you think they lied? What effect do you think this cheap labour has on wages and housing and the NHS? Will you answer my question? Employers will always look for ways to pay as little as possible. If you think the likes of the boris Johnson and nigel farage pushed for Brexit was so workers could get better wages you are deluded. Do workers have the sane rights as when were in the eu? Do you feel that the EU aided employers in forcing down their workers pay rates?" A question answered with a question I think that proves my point somewhat. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As my question clearly isnt going to be answered,it appears we have severely damaged ourselves economically and financially, to stop something happening,(millions of people coming here)that was never going to happen anyway. Absolute genius. " You lost mate ,get over it ,move on . | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As my question clearly isnt going to be answered,it appears we have severely damaged ourselves economically and financially, to stop something happening,(millions of people coming here)that was never going to happen anyway. Absolute genius. You lost mate ,get over it ,move on ." And you won presumably? Well done you | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"And how many people from here went abroad to work? Approx 2m. The figures are freely available. Remainers claimed in the referendum that it was equal all round...they said 2.75m UK people were working in the EU and the same number of EU people were in the UK. Do you think they lied? What effect do you think this cheap labour has on wages and housing and the NHS? Will you answer my question? Employers will always look for ways to pay as little as possible. If you think the likes of the boris Johnson and nigel farage pushed for Brexit was so workers could get better wages you are deluded. Do workers have the sane rights as when were in the eu? Do you feel that the EU aided employers in forcing down their workers pay rates? A question answered with a question I think that proves my point somewhat." Oh the irony. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
