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Covid - The weeping and wailing
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. " Well said await the answers | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life ." . I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. " And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed" . So basically you have no concern for destroyed businesses, jobs, families losing their homes etc etc. Nice | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed. So basically you have no concern for destroyed businesses, jobs, families losing their homes etc etc. Nice" You asked a question, no need for sarcasm because you don't agree with the answer | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed. So basically you have no concern for destroyed businesses, jobs, families losing their homes etc etc. Nice" It appears you have no concern for lives lost, OP. | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life ." How does loosing your job save a life ? | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life . How does loosing your job save a life ?" Lockdown = job losses Lockdown = reducing covid transmission reducing transmission = saving lives | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed. So basically you have no concern for destroyed businesses, jobs, families losing their homes etc etc. Nice You asked a question, no need for sarcasm because you don't agree with the answer "  | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. " How many people do you feel it is acceptable to kill to save a million jobs? | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life . How does loosing your job save a life ? Lockdown = job losses Lockdown = reducing covid transmission reducing transmission = saving lives " Lockdown = job losses Job losses = less tax Less tax = less health care Less health care = lives lost ... Jesus ... just keeps going .. | |||
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"Simple answer is losing life is much worse than losing jobs. " No simple answer unfortunately. Lives lost either way. | |||
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"There has to be a trade off, but Boris doesn’t have the balls to say so. The long term damage won’t be his problem, he’ll be speaking at sine after dinner event for £10k while another government is making the toughest choices Looking around at the state of the care home sector and general treatment of the old and poor by this government, and the tax breaks for the rich, it’s very clear this government don’t think life is sacred at all, " No government thinks life is sacred. Well the lives of the common people anyway. | |||
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"Simple answer is losing life is much worse than losing jobs. No simple answer unfortunately. Lives lost either way. " OK. Most people expect to lose jobs now and then, always have done. It only means they have to get a new one. You don't die after redundancy. Just skint until the next job. Big deal | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed. So basically you have no concern for destroyed businesses, jobs, families losing their homes etc etc. Nice" So basically you have no concern for lives lost nice | |||
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"Simple answer is losing life is much worse than losing jobs. No simple answer unfortunately. Lives lost either way. OK. Most people expect to lose jobs now and then, always have done. It only means they have to get a new one. You don't die after redundancy. Just skint until the next job. Big deal" Its the mass job loss.. on top of brexit thats going to fuck us up . Its not the same. | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. " How many of other people's loved ones lives are you the op happy to sacrifice is the obvious counter argument..? As with both sides the balance is the issue in how we get through this and the impacts long term across the board.. This will pass and some sectors will recover, others will prosper during and people being resilient will bounce back.. Those that survive clearly.. | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life . How does loosing your job save a life ? Lockdown = job losses Lockdown = reducing covid transmission reducing transmission = saving lives Lockdown = job losses Job losses = less tax Less tax = less health care Less health care = lives lost ... Jesus ... just keeps going .." Agreed, but the one factor omitted is time, which is a variable reliant on people doing what was required of them such as not traveling/mixing etc. We had been lucky in this part of the country to keep the positive cases low, but now the numbers are rising. Over the past few days household have been mixing indoors and we have plenty of people from tier 4 areas who have come down for their holidays. It's only going to increase the rates and prolong any restrictions. | |||
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"There has to be a trade off, but Boris doesn’t have the balls to say so. The long term damage won’t be his problem, he’ll be speaking at sine after dinner event for £10k while another government is making the toughest choices Looking around at the state of the care home sector and general treatment of the old and poor by this government, and the tax breaks for the rich, it’s very clear this government don’t think life is sacred at all, No government thinks life is sacred. Well the lives of the common people anyway. " This.. | |||
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"Simple answer is losing life is much worse than losing jobs. No simple answer unfortunately. Lives lost either way. OK. Most people expect to lose jobs now and then, always have done. It only means they have to get a new one. You don't die after redundancy. Just skint until the next job. Big deal Its the mass job loss.. on top of brexit thats going to fuck us up . Its not the same. " I remember mass job losses in the 80s. Including my own. I just picked myself up and got a new job. People weren't suicidal then. | |||
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"I think the Virus section should be renamed The Hamster Wheel." Gemini you must feel like Sisyphus eternally damned to push the boulder up the hill every day. Yes it's like a wheel but I salute your efforts. | |||
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"I gave my both my physical and mental health to nurse people in the underfunded nhs. I think those that choose or need to should shield and, the others allowed to get on with life. It will take years to vaccinate all those that want it. Lockdowns clearly don't work, blaming each other is pointless. The virus will mutate and be with us for years." so much wrong with this post. It will not take years to vaccinate. We vaccination about 15m in 10 weeks for flu. we need to administer 4x this number with 2 doses so that's 80 weeks. Of course, this is more than a year, however, there is absolutely no reason why the number of vaccinations can't be increased many times this number with a roll-out plan assuming supply is there. 1 in every 100 people in the UK is a nurse or GP. Each on vaccinates 2 people a day then that's the population vaccinated with 2 doses in 100 days. The vaccine will work on this new mutation. It will carry on mutating and possibly mutate in a way that makes it less severe or even burn itself out. The vaccine will likely still identify it as covid 19. Lockdowns clearly DO work. The dips in cases coincide with lockdowns. There are only 2 premier league clubs that are allowed spectators in their grounds at the moment. Liverpool and Everton. Why is this? Because they're in tier 2 which was only possible due to the strict measures that were put in place when rates were sky high. It is true that lockdown has not eliminated the virus but this was not their aim. Their aim was to lower the R rate and to protect the NHS. Getting on with life for the rest of us means rapid increases in transmission of a virus that, whilst not likely to kill us, put the NHS under so much strain that people will unnecessarily die. You really need to understand the cosequences of this. Perhaps read the post by doubleswing2019 4 hours ago in this thread (including the comments being responded to): https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/virus/1105225 | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. " Grow up the suffering and after effects are a problem for far more.Now go back to sleep | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. " If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. M has lost an entire years work with no prospect in the near future. He's also signed off with depression. If you asked him, he'd say it was worth it to save on life. My question, is this yet another "say something provocative just to get a reaction thread", because it smells a bit like it. E | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. Grow up the suffering and after effects are a problem for far more.Now go back to sleep " | |||
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"Please. If you want to come on here claimung to be quite happy to have lost your £200,000 a year job if it saves one life; thats not the question. Do your grandstanding elsewhere " Is that not ironic given your entrenchment and what looks like a lack of ability to at least acknowledge the issue is more multi facetted than you have yet to accept or are completely unwilling to? | |||
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"Please. If you want to come on here claimung to be quite happy to have lost your £200,000 a year job if it saves one life; thats not the question. Do your grandstanding elsewhere " Grandstanding? Oh and in defence of the previous poster it was a £60k a year job so you're just making yourself look (even more) stupid by misquoting her. IMO anyone that puts the economy before human life needs to take a long hard look in the mirror. I've not worked in a year and 9 months of that is down to COVID and my line of work completely drying up. I've not been able to claim a penny in support but I've got a roof over my head and I can eat. I'm now having to apply for jobs way below my skillset but I know the economy will recover over time and we just have to make do to protect our loved ones and try and minimise the loss of life. Do I want the economy to suffer? No. But I'd much rather we put the brakes on the pandemic and the only way to do that is by stopping the spread. Unfortunately it's an "either/or" situation and I'd rather be struggling financially for a relatively short period of time than be six feet under eternally. | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life ." I'm glad you've given up car driving too,as there are about 1.3m deaths caused by road accidents each year worldwide. | |||
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"It depends how many lives have been saved by the lock down vs how many were lost because of the lock down. I personally think the majority of excess deaths are caused by the lock down measures rather then covid. " I suggest that's incorrect. Explain the rise in cases before lockdown and the dip in cases after lockdown. E | |||
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"It depends how many lives have been saved by the lock down vs how many were lost because of the lock down. I personally think the majority of excess deaths are caused by the lock down measures rather then covid. " Until there's been about a year and the figures are looked at in detail we don't yet know what the impact has been in other areas.. | |||
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"Please. If you want to come on here claimung to be quite happy to have lost your £200,000 a year job if it saves one life; thats not the question. Do your grandstanding elsewhere " That's exactly the question you asked... " And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering." | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. " People are so fixated on the death part they think “recovery” means happy ever after..... for a lot of people it isn’t.... It is leaving a myriad of health problems people are now having to live with, and we don’t know how long they will last... I know people who got it near the start and still don’t feel back to where they were | |||
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"Please. If you want to come on here claimung to be quite happy to have lost your £200,000 a year job if it saves one life; thats not the question. Do your grandstanding elsewhere " I can't see where anyone's posted to say they're happy to have lost a £200,000 a year job. Question for you OP, how many people are you happy to see die to protect one job? E | |||
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"Please. If you want to come on here claimung to be quite happy to have lost your £200,000 a year job if it saves one life; thats not the question. Do your grandstanding elsewhere That's exactly the question you asked... " And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering." " We already give up a significant portion of our current income to help these people in the form of tax and national insurance to pay for the NHS. That's what it's there for. | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. " Think we also have to add loss of Freedoms | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. Think we also have to add loss of Freedoms " What freedoms have you lost? I haven't lost any. E | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. Think we also have to add loss of Freedoms What freedoms have you lost? I haven't lost any. E" so you have lost no freedoms ? Really s?? | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. Think we also have to add loss of Freedoms What freedoms have you lost? I haven't lost any. E so you have lost no freedoms ? Really s??" Being asked to forgo certain activities as a temporary measure is not losing freedoms. | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. Think we also have to add loss of Freedoms What freedoms have you lost? I haven't lost any. E so you have lost no freedoms ? Really s?? Being asked to forgo certain activities as a temporary measure is not losing freedoms." Totally disagree ,our freedoms have been taken away from us at this moment | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. Think we also have to add loss of Freedoms What freedoms have you lost? I haven't lost any. E so you have lost no freedoms ? Really s?? Being asked to forgo certain activities as a temporary measure is not losing freedoms. Totally disagree ,our freedoms have been taken away from us at this moment " Can you give any examples? | |||
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"I think the Virus section should be renamed The Hamster Wheel." or the fish hook because everyone gets reeled in. | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. " Is 70,000 death's not enough to justify the measure's or as you stated due to the average age as they are old it's okay? I am totally not understanding this mentality of its doesn't matter if old people die. | |||
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"Wrong question. It's a philosophy, a set of values, a moral code. You either have it or you don't. If you believe that individual life is important, you try to protect it." | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. Is 70,000 death's not enough to justify the measure's or as you stated due to the average age as they are old it's okay? I am totally not understanding this mentality of its doesn't matter if old people die." "There's no such thing as society" - A former UK PM. Maybe she was on to something there. | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. Is 70,000 death's not enough to justify the measure's or as you stated due to the average age as they are old it's okay? I am totally not understanding this mentality of its doesn't matter if old people die." Out of them 70000 how many would have actually survived to this point even if covid wasn't about. we aren't talking 700000 healthy people it's some where like 68000 people with other problems and 2000 healthy people Have died | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. Is 70,000 death's not enough to justify the measure's or as you stated due to the average age as they are old it's okay? I am totally not understanding this mentality of its doesn't matter if old people die." . Totally missed the point. I simply asked an uncomfortable question that you don’t want to answer. So how much of your current income will you donate to help those who have lost their jobs ? Just moralising are we ? | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed" But people are losing loved ones people are committing suicide because of losing their homes their jobs! And belive me living with the fall out from suicide is truly devastating! X | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. Think we also have to add loss of Freedoms What freedoms have you lost? I haven't lost any. E so you have lost no freedoms ? Really s?? Being asked to forgo certain activities as a temporary measure is not losing freedoms. Totally disagree ,our freedoms have been taken away from us at this moment " So again. What freedoms have been taken away from you? | |||
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"Simple answer is losing life is much worse than losing jobs. No simple answer unfortunately. Lives lost either way. OK. Most people expect to lose jobs now and then, always have done. It only means they have to get a new one. You don't die after redundancy. Just skint until the next job. Big deal" How very naive! X | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. Is 70,000 death's not enough to justify the measure's or as you stated due to the average age as they are old it's okay? I am totally not understanding this mentality of its doesn't matter if old people die." The irony being those over 70s have generally paid a shit load more into the nhs and public services and welfare, than the 40s and under... But fuck em anyway. | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed But people are losing loved ones people are committing suicide because of losing their homes their jobs! And belive me living with the fall out from suicide is truly devastating! X" Yes there are other dreadful consequences... So here's an idea. Let's all pull together. Stop spreading the virus and then we can do more normal things more quickly. | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed But people are losing loved ones people are committing suicide because of losing their homes their jobs! And belive me living with the fall out from suicide is truly devastating! X" Then there needs to be more support put into place .... another failing of the government. It isn’t saves lives from covid and sacrifice others from suicide that’s not the only choice. This arsehole has fucked it up from day 1. Look to other countries - millions or billions has been put into supporting those affected - mental health teams, financial support to prioritise housing ... this lot? Nah ‘eat out to help out’ is the best they came up with. We are fighting a losing battle | |||
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"Having almost died from Covid complications this year and losing 90% of my income i can quite categorically say I prefer this outcome to being dead. Perhaps if people applied themselves to the rules and stopped thinking restrictions and facemasks are not for them we could be mostly beyond this like NZ, another island nation that pulled together and did it properly" I could not agree more. I was very lucky not to be hospitalised. I am left with lungs that don't work to their full capacity and really bad fatigue it's been 8mths! But I'm so thankful to be alive | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. Is 70,000 death's not enough to justify the measure's or as you stated due to the average age as they are old it's okay? I am totally not understanding this mentality of its doesn't matter if old people die. Out of them 70000 how many would have actually survived to this point even if covid wasn't about. we aren't talking 700000 healthy people it's some where like 68000 people with other problems and 2000 healthy people Have died " ..... and if measures hadn’t been put in place to reduce the spread, how many do you think that figure would have been, personally it’s not a number I would like to know. | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed But people are losing loved ones people are committing suicide because of losing their homes their jobs! And belive me living with the fall out from suicide is truly devastating! X Yes there are other dreadful consequences... So here's an idea. Let's all pull together. Stop spreading the virus and then we can do more normal things more quickly. " | |||
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"Having almost died from Covid complications this year and losing 90% of my income i can quite categorically say I prefer this outcome to being dead. Perhaps if people applied themselves to the rules and stopped thinking restrictions and facemasks are not for them we could be mostly beyond this like NZ, another island nation that pulled together and did it properly I could not agree more. I was very lucky not to be hospitalised. I am left with lungs that don't work to their full capacity and really bad fatigue it's been 8mths! But I'm so thankful to be alive" A question to someone who obviously had it pretty bad. What if anything have you been told about catching it again or any immunity you may or may not have? | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. " It’s an interesting moral philosophy question for sure. I don’t know about figures or statistics but I firmly believe at this stage the ‘cure’ is worse than the disease. I’ve lost more friends and colleagues to suicide this year than I have to the virus. A direct knock on effect to lost jobs, destroyed businesses and broken families. It’s interesting to see people taking the moral high ground and insisting that ‘one death is a death too many’. There are other killers out there that most people seem to have forgotten about entirely. I think the skewed perspective is largely down to a rabid media and a bigger middle ‘chattering’ class than we’ve ever had in this country. For example I’ve heard critics of lockdown using speed limits as an example of this skewed perspective. Thousands are killed on the roads each year even when Highway Code compliant. Where are the baying mobs demanding the speed limit is lowered from 70 to 60? People and the government are clearly willing to sacrifice those lives lost on Britain’s roads for the sake of a functioning and efficient economy. A 10mph reduction might sound like a little bit the knock on effect would be huge. Just find it all very interesting as an outside observer. | |||
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"I think one of the (many) issues with the "can't we just ignore the virus and live and work like we used to" mentality is the lack of thought into potential consequences. So without some kind of behaviour checks (I'll not call it lockdown as it isn't close to a lockdown), the virus runs unchecked. Over time what are the consequences of 100k symptomatic infections per day.? How many hospitalisations? How many deaths? What other health provision is affected and at what cost? There is no easy answer. And "lockdowns" may not be the answer now.... But ignoring this because a headline statistic of average age of death suits your argument isn't the answer either. "
I really think they can't understand any of that. All they can see is 'elderly disposable people' dying. And that's ok because it doesn't affect them.
They don't like it when I suggest a cull of people over X age. Yet they are suggesting the same thing.  | |||
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"It depends how many lives have been saved by the lock down vs how many were lost because of the lock down. I personally think the majority of excess deaths are caused by the lock down measures rather then covid. I suggest that's incorrect. Explain the rise in cases before lockdown and the dip in cases after lockdown. E" The first lock down started on 23rd of March and the rise in cases about the same time from what I have seen. | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. Think we also have to add loss of Freedoms What freedoms have you lost? I haven't lost any. E so you have lost no freedoms ? Really s??" That's what I said, yes. So, back to my question, what freedoms have you lost? E | |||
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"Having almost died from Covid complications this year and losing 90% of my income i can quite categorically say I prefer this outcome to being dead. Perhaps if people applied themselves to the rules and stopped thinking restrictions and facemasks are not for them we could be mostly beyond this like NZ, another island nation that pulled together and did it properly I could not agree more. I was very lucky not to be hospitalised. I am left with lungs that don't work to their full capacity and really bad fatigue it's been 8mths! But I'm so thankful to be alive A question to someone who obviously had it pretty bad. What if anything have you been told about catching it again or any immunity you may or may not have? " I was basically told wait and see! The downside to having it early on was no one knew anything about the virus. At first I was told you can't catch it again but that information was false and now I've been told if I get it again it will be even worse! I'm an essential worker now so get weekly tests at work which helps put my mind at rest | |||
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"The fact is that since February only 370 people under the age of 60 with no underlying conditions have died of Covid. Obviously tragic for those families but is this worth tanking our economy, wrecking peoples lives and mental health for? It's questionable to say the least. " I’d put that question to the millions of individuals who have underlying health conditions or someone in their household does. Do you lock them and all of their households away just so the few can get on with their lives ? I think not | |||
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"I gave my both my physical and mental health to nurse people in the underfunded nhs. I think those that choose or need to should shield and, the others allowed to get on with life. It will take years to vaccinate all those that want it. Lockdowns clearly don't work, blaming each other is pointless. The virus will mutate and be with us for years." | |||
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"I wish people would grow up, no one is taking the moral high ground, simply following rules set in place by the government. In the same way as I don't break the law, spout religious hatred, racism and other horrendous and illegal activities. But if you want to translate this as moral high ground crack on. Fact is everyone is in the same boat one way or another we are all suffering. But this constant one upmanship is frankly tiresome. I don't know enough about suicide statistics to be able to comment, regardless I feel deeply sorry for anyone affected, the same way anyone hit financially and emotionally I feel for. But I can't change the outcome of someone's mental health or financial status directly other than being charitable and compassionate. However what I can do is follow the guidelines to help slow the spread of the virus and the impact on death's, financial impact on the NHS and the economy thus hopefully helping to get things back to normal as soon as possible, thus bringing an end to the virus as soon as possible. Which means loss of income, suicide rates and death's due to other conditions not currently able to get treatment for will also stop. So yes I'm going to take the moral high ground because it's pretty much all I can do. Spouting statistics and trying to decide if old people are expendable against healthy people is something that we vote governments to make the choice o over, I am outraged and deeply upset for anyone affected by this current situation. So I have said pretty much everything I want to say regards the virus and it's just a constant merry go round of opinions with the same arguments being regurgitated on an hourly basis. I'm done with the debate as such as it is. Some people will not change the way they think and I think it's a sad indictment of the way we treat each other today. Bye" This. ^^^^ E | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed But people are losing loved ones people are committing suicide because of losing their homes their jobs! And belive me living with the fall out from suicide is truly devastating! X Then there needs to be more support put into place .... another failing of the government. It isn’t saves lives from covid and sacrifice others from suicide that’s not the only choice. This arsehole has fucked it up from day 1. Look to other countries - millions or billions has been put into supporting those affected - mental health teams, financial support to prioritise housing ... this lot? Nah ‘eat out to help out’ is the best they came up with. We are fighting a losing battle " So the £133 billion NHS budget isn’t big enough or the £13.5 billion debt write off hasn’t helped? & the Nightingale hospitals still not being used? To me that sounds like the managers at the NHS can’t do their jobs, after all the health executives at the NHS of which 6500 of them earn more than Boris does, he might be doing a crap job, but they are even worse they only have one job to do & have failed us all. As for the furlough £43 billion so far, how much more money would you spend & where are you going to get the extra money from? | |||
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"The fact is that since February only 370 people under the age of 60 with no underlying conditions have died of Covid. Obviously tragic for those families but is this worth tanking our economy, wrecking peoples lives and mental health for? It's questionable to say the least. I’d put that question to the millions of individuals who have underlying health conditions or someone in their household does. Do you lock them and all of their households away just so the few can get on with their lives ? I think not " What a ridiculous statement. | |||
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"I wish people would grow up, no one is taking the moral high ground, simply following rules set in place by the government. In the same way as I don't break the law, spout religious hatred, racism and other horrendous and illegal activities. But if you want to translate this as moral high ground crack on. Fact is everyone is in the same boat one way or another we are all suffering. But this constant one upmanship is frankly tiresome. I don't know enough about suicide statistics to be able to comment, regardless I feel deeply sorry for anyone affected, the same way anyone hit financially and emotionally I feel for. But I can't change the outcome of someone's mental health or financial status directly other than being charitable and compassionate. However what I can do is follow the guidelines to help slow the spread of the virus and the impact on death's, financial impact on the NHS and the economy thus hopefully helping to get things back to normal as soon as possible, thus bringing an end to the virus as soon as possible. Which means loss of income, suicide rates and death's due to other conditions not currently able to get treatment for will also stop. So yes I'm going to take the moral high ground because it's pretty much all I can do. Spouting statistics and trying to decide if old people are expendable against healthy people is something that we vote governments to make the choice o over, I am outraged and deeply upset for anyone affected by this current situation. So I have said pretty much everything I want to say regards the virus and it's just a constant merry go round of opinions with the same arguments being regurgitated on an hourly basis. I'm done with the debate as such as it is. Some people will not change the way they think and I think it's a sad indictment of the way we treat each other today. Bye" I didn’t suggest following the rules is taking the moral high ground. Anywhere. I’m surprised that’s what you’ve taken from my post but that’s on you, and it wasn’t what I was getting at. At all. I was talking specifically about the stance of ‘one death is a death too many’ crowd. I personally see that as a hypocritical viewpoint for the reasons I outlined above. And in my own lived experience it comes from people largely unaffected by lockdown. But that’s personal experience for you. Everyone’s is different | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. Is 70,000 death's not enough to justify the measure's or as you stated due to the average age as they are old it's okay? I am totally not understanding this mentality of its doesn't matter if old people die." Like everything in life the op's question is about choices. I maybe wouldn't have framed the question in such a harsh way, however he threw it out there like a hand grenade in a crowded room. So here goes. We have choices every day in life, do we cross the road here or further down... both choices will have a risk and a positive or negative impact on where we are going. We may choose to cross early because the shop we need is just there and oops we get run over...Would have been better taking the long way there... In respect of covid the current government or any government of this country is faced with an impossible task to please everyone...deaths v economy etc. Everyone has there thoughts on what is important for them and very often these will be completely at odds to others thinking. How many have died from covid...we won't know that till the excess deaths figure is released and analysed. Some would have died anyway this year, covid just shortened things a little, some were taken far too early and some didn't died of covid at all. I don't know what is an acceptable trade off, but there has to be a trade off, otherwise we would end up living in a total lock down like China imposed to eradicate the virus. Trouble here is that no one in the UK wants to go down that route & everyone breaks or bends the rules and then moans "its not fair" when caught. So unless we get a Taiwan attitude we are going to have to wait and hope for the vaccine to tame this outbreak. The virus isn't spreading by itself nor is it spread by the government, its spread by people...who obviously don't do as they are told. Otherwise it wouldn't be spreading. New Zealand's solution was far easier the ours - it's so far from other countries they just had to stop the tourist flights coming in. Its beautiful but not exactly a world gateway plus with a population of 5m in an land as big as the UK. I could go on but feel I need to stake my place in the vaccine queue. Complaints on a post card please or by Telegraph... | |||
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"The fact is that since February only 370 people under the age of 60 with no underlying conditions have died of Covid. Obviously tragic for those families but is this worth tanking our economy, wrecking peoples lives and mental health for? It's questionable to say the least. " No it’s not, enough is enough. Time to try to get back to some sort of normality. These ridiculous lockdowns are damaging and ineffective. Carry on with the masks and hand washing etc and let’s just try to stop judging anyone who disagrees with the one life is too many brigade | |||
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"The fact is that since February only 370 people under the age of 60 with no underlying conditions have died of Covid. Obviously tragic for those families but is this worth tanking our economy, wrecking peoples lives and mental health for? It's questionable to say the least. I’d put that question to the millions of individuals who have underlying health conditions or someone in their household does. Do you lock them and all of their households away just so the few can get on with their lives ? I think not What a ridiculous statement. " Just as I find those that say let everyone just get on with life a ridiculous statement, as those dying or catching covid without underlying health conditions is so minimal | |||
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"The fact is that since February only 370 people under the age of 60 with no underlying conditions have died of Covid. Obviously tragic for those families but is this worth tanking our economy, wrecking peoples lives and mental health for? It's questionable to say the least. I’d put that question to the millions of individuals who have underlying health conditions or someone in their household does. Do you lock them and all of their households away just so the few can get on with their lives ? I think not What a ridiculous statement. " Why? | |||
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"The fact is that since February only 370 people under the age of 60 with no underlying conditions have died of Covid. Obviously tragic for those families but is this worth tanking our economy, wrecking peoples lives and mental health for? It's questionable to say the least. " care to explain your understanding of an underlying health condition and the life expectancy of someone with such conditions? I know a 10 year old girl diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. Whilst potential complications of the condition may in theory decrease her life expectancy by 10 years or so, advancements in treatments over the next 50 years or so will likely mean she will live as long as a "healthy" person. If she caught covid and died, she would go down as a "under 60 with underlying health conditions" death even though, based on life expectancy estimates she should still have another 60 years of life and significant contribution. Whilst this would be an extreme example, it does demonstrate that your stat is quite meaningless. | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. " Maybe. But how long does it have to go on is the OP’s point. Seen plenty of evidence that even with the second wave the NHS is still below capacity. And here I was thinking the NHS is supposed to look after the people, not the other way around. Strange days indeed. | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed" The OPs original question is how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice....the OP had a response didn't like the response hence why they asked it again. So OP here's a question to you how many lives gone you know dead, gone forever, grieving families, mental health of a losing someone are YOU willing to sacrifice to save a job ??? | |||
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"Simple answer is losing life is much worse than losing jobs. No simple answer unfortunately. Lives lost either way. " Exactly, people will unfortunately die either way | |||
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"The fact is that since February only 370 people under the age of 60 with no underlying conditions have died of Covid. Obviously tragic for those families but is this worth tanking our economy, wrecking peoples lives and mental health for? It's questionable to say the least. " Do you know what is defined as an underlying condition... Something as simple as asthma, for example, drinking can lead to issues with liver, smoking can lead to issues with lungs, obesity, etc etc.... So the whole underlying issue is a nonsense | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. " The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? | |||
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"Bollocks to covid 19 and bollocks to the government more people die from alcohol and cigarettes I dont see the government's doing much about that .unlike this virus that 99% of people recover from " So what do you suggest? Banning alcohol and cigarettes indefinitely? I'm sure people like you are the one going on about the government taking away out freedom at the moment. If someone smokes or drinks and die as a result then they've only really got themselves to blame. Any one of us could pick up covid at the supermarket and die. Cigarette packets have a VERY clear message on them about the dangers of smoking but people still smoke. These warnings aren't there be the choice of the manufacturers but there in law thanks to Governments. So, back to my initial question...what do you suggest? | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? " It’s simplistic but is a fair point | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? " This for sure ^ There appears to be little to no application of common sense (expect no less from any government tho). Care homes is a great example of the level of ineptitude at play. | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? This for sure ^ There appears to be little to no application of common sense (expect no less from any government tho). Care homes is a great example of the level of ineptitude at play. " the care, homes fiasco was criminal. Whoever, decided to send infected people, back into the care, homes should be made, accountable for that. | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed The OPs original question is how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice....the OP had a response didn't like the response hence why they asked it again. So OP here's a question to you how many lives gone you know dead, gone forever, grieving families, mental health of a losing someone are YOU willing to sacrifice to save a job ??? " Lives Vs Livelihoods, that's a tough one. I'm reminded of an expression, there's no such thing as the richest man in the cemetery. | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. Maybe. But how long does it have to go on is the OP’s point. Seen plenty of evidence that even with the second wave the NHS is still below capacity. And here I was thinking the NHS is supposed to look after the people, not the other way around. Strange days indeed. " The NHS is below capacity in the 2nd wave because, just like the first wave, the transmission of the virus is being restricted to prevent such as situation. That's the whole point of lockdowns! The NHS is supposed to look after people but it can only do that under normal circumstances. | |||
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"The fact is that since February only 370 people under the age of 60 with no underlying conditions have died of Covid. Obviously tragic for those families but is this worth tanking our economy, wrecking peoples lives and mental health for? It's questionable to say the least. Do you know what is defined as an underlying condition... Something as simple as asthma, for example, drinking can lead to issues with liver, smoking can lead to issues with lungs, obesity, etc etc.... So the whole underlying issue is a nonsense " Mate I've been trying to out the underlying conditions and I totally agree with you, the whole underlying conditions things is crazy, people think that it has to be something serious....it isn't mild asthma is one and obesity is but also being overweight is too, they have also added arthritis to the list  arthritis ? The majority of the country has some form of arthritis they just don't know it | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? This for sure ^ There appears to be little to no application of common sense (expect no less from any government tho). Care homes is a great example of the level of ineptitude at play. the care, homes fiasco was criminal. Whoever, decided to send infected people, back into the care, homes should be made, accountable for that. " Agree and they are STILL doing it, in November 373 recovering covid patients were sent back to care homes just under 100 of them were not actually living there they were sent there to recover and they were still positive. | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? " Very good point well made.. | |||
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"Reason why NHS cant cope the government has been screwing them for years ask doctors and nurses if the government didn't our NHS could cope with anything " £133.3 billion budget, £13.5 billion debt written off, really is this underfunded? How many NHS doctors do know that are poor or won’t have at least £60k per year pension to enjoy from the age of 55? | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. Maybe. But how long does it have to go on is the OP’s point. Seen plenty of evidence that even with the second wave the NHS is still below capacity. And here I was thinking the NHS is supposed to look after the people, not the other way around. Strange days indeed. The NHS is below capacity in the 2nd wave because, just like the first wave, the transmission of the virus is being restricted to prevent such as situation. That's the whole point of lockdowns! The NHS is supposed to look after people but it can only do that under normal circumstances. " Meanwhile preventable illnesses begin to soar. Less folk going to hospital for life saving treatment...there’s always a cost. Like suggested further up the thread - why not isolate covid patients in separate facilities? Colour me suspicious but I’ve heard it mentioned on several podcasts now that trusts get more funding the more covid patients they accept. I know that’s certainly the case in the US. Why aren’t/can’t they apply a common sense approach? I’d be inclined to believe it’ll be down to money, like everything else. Can’t wait for the public enquiry. | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? This for sure ^ There appears to be little to no application of common sense (expect no less from any government tho). Care homes is a great example of the level of ineptitude at play. " Perhaps there are reasons that you don't have insight into? That's usually the reason and not that others who do have more awareness lack common sense. Resourcing a Nightingale hospital takes away resources from other hospitals that are stretched. Maybe this helps? Perhaps British Medical Association leader Dr Chaand Nagpaul does have common sense? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55413831 | |||
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"Having almost died from Covid complications this year and losing 90% of my income i can quite categorically say I prefer this outcome to being dead. Perhaps if people applied themselves to the rules and stopped thinking restrictions and facemasks are not for them we could be mostly beyond this like NZ, another island nation that pulled together and did it properly I could not agree more. I was very lucky not to be hospitalised. I am left with lungs that don't work to their full capacity and really bad fatigue it's been 8mths! But I'm so thankful to be alive A question to someone who obviously had it pretty bad. What if anything have you been told about catching it again or any immunity you may or may not have? I was basically told wait and see! The downside to having it early on was no one knew anything about the virus. At first I was told you can't catch it again but that information was false and now I've been told if I get it again it will be even worse! I'm an essential worker now so get weekly tests at work which helps put my mind at rest" Yes I was discussing with a police friend who had caught it... And he had been told by plod health that he is MORE vulnerable now. Which is contrary to the earlier fxxxbook info about being immune now. | |||
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"I gave my both my physical and mental health to nurse people in the underfunded nhs. I think those that choose or need to should shield and, the others allowed to get on with life. It will take years to vaccinate all those that want it. Lockdowns clearly don't work, blaming each other is pointless. The virus will mutate and be with us for years." | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed The OPs original question is how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice....the OP had a response didn't like the response hence why they asked it again. So OP here's a question to you how many lives gone you know dead, gone forever, grieving families, mental health of a losing someone are YOU willing to sacrifice to save a job ??? " . I’m simply inrigued by the often seen message that basically any price is worth paying to save a life. My question is how far is anyone prepared to go in taking that view. It has nothing to do with my personal experiences or even my own view point. It’s simply a question i’ve put out there. | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? This for sure ^ There appears to be little to no application of common sense (expect no less from any government tho). Care homes is a great example of the level of ineptitude at play. Perhaps there are reasons that you don't have insight into? That's usually the reason and not that others who do have more awareness lack common sense. Resourcing a Nightingale hospital takes away resources from other hospitals that are stretched. Maybe this helps? Perhaps British Medical Association leader Dr Chaand Nagpaul does have common sense? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55413831 " So what’s stopping covid staff from hospitals moving to nightingales to treat covid patients? At least the infected are isolated. It still doesn’t resolve the issue of non covid patients not being treated but at least the infection is isolated and out of mainstream hospital environments. Common sense . | |||
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"Bollocks to covid 19 and bollocks to the government more people die from alcohol and cigarettes I dont see the government's doing much about that .unlike this virus that 99% of people recover from " You're not comparing eggs with eggs. If you drink yourself to oivion, I won't catch it. If you smoke so much your lungs fail and you die a slow crippling death from cancer, I won't catch it. Those are puerile and ridiculous comparisons. I'll go with your 99% of people recover, the 1% that won't is 78 million. So if you're happy with that, crack on. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. E | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed But people are losing loved ones people are committing suicide because of losing their homes their jobs! And belive me living with the fall out from suicide is truly devastating! X Yes there are other dreadful consequences... So here's an idea. Let's all pull together. Stop spreading the virus and then we can do more normal things more quickly. " U have totally missed my point!! X | |||
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"Bollocks to covid 19 and bollocks to the government more people die from alcohol and cigarettes I dont see the government's doing much about that .unlike this virus that 99% of people recover from You're not comparing eggs with eggs. If you drink yourself to oivion, I won't catch it. If you smoke so much your lungs fail and you die a slow crippling death from cancer, I won't catch it. Those are puerile and ridiculous comparisons. I'll go with your 99% of people recover, the 1% that won't is 78 million. So if you're happy with that, crack on. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. E" I wonder if covid was just an sti if things would be different. | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. " How many lives is your job worth sacrificing for, especially as you're not considering giving up your life? | |||
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"Seems like it would have been better for OP to have made their own statement on this and opened for discussion. Though it could have been appended to the many other threads that have bewailed the almost inconvenient illness, suffering and tragic deaths of millions of people, due to the disruption to their own business as usual lifestyle. Naturally, we lived in the open, without clothes and foraged for our foods. Anything beyond that is a luxury. Most people will give up most or all of their assets to save loved ones and some strangers, from disabilities and death. I think that is reasonable. I think it's the mark of maturity that we are willing to forego things, for the greater good. The selfish will always find everything is too high a cost, when they don't personally gain. We need to have patience, when we are towards the end of this problem. Vaccines and new prophylactic treatments are where you should be putting your investment, alongside better health care for all. This epidemic has also shown that the poorer suffer more, so there must be a levelling up, with those of us who are better off having to invest more in the wellbeing of the many. You've not started paying yet, if you think it's too expensive. Until we are homeless and have nothing to eat, we are living a life of luxury. " | |||
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"If it's so bad why isn't ther whole nations wiped out the poor countrys that have no medical services the population riddled with HIV and aids starving ther immune system would be none existing youd think by now total fatalities world wide would be many millions higher but it's not there isnt 4000 people a day dying in the uk alone which the uk government said would happen and we've got an nhs to help us" I think you've replaced finding and understanding credible scientific evidence and data with empty conjecture. Many treatments have been introduced that now save thousands of lives. It's 1 reason that hospitals remain busy, as patients are surviving to a far greater extent | |||
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"I don't know the answer. Looking at it purely as statistics and percentages, how many lives are worth how many livelihoods? That isn't a question I can answer. Looking at it on an individual basis, am I willing for one or both of my parents to die, or my partner or myself to save someone from losing their job and the answer is a resounding "no". I think most people recognise that we're between a rock and a hard place. I'm glad I'm not the one making the decisions. " 100% this  | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? This for sure ^ There appears to be little to no application of common sense (expect no less from any government tho). Care homes is a great example of the level of ineptitude at play. Perhaps there are reasons that you don't have insight into? That's usually the reason and not that others who do have more awareness lack common sense. Resourcing a Nightingale hospital takes away resources from other hospitals that are stretched. Maybe this helps? Perhaps British Medical Association leader Dr Chaand Nagpaul does have common sense? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55413831 " The NHS have had over a year to get ready for this. yet haven’t had time to refute staff or train them? for the hospitals that have been built within that time to deal with it. When will someone decide to train them, once they are full? again there are 6500 NHS staff on more than the PM. All experts every one of them, they’ve all got it wrong at some point, not all good solutions come from experts, the most effective solutions are the simplest | |||
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"Please. If you want to come on here claimung to be quite happy to have lost your £200,000 a year job if it saves one life; thats not the question. Do your grandstanding elsewhere " seemed to me it was exactly your question (how much you willing to give up out your own pocket?) | |||
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"I don't know the answer. Looking at it purely as statistics and percentages, how many lives are worth how many livelihoods? That isn't a question I can answer. Looking at it on an individual basis, am I willing for one or both of my parents to die, or my partner or myself to save someone from losing their job and the answer is a resounding "no". I think most people recognise that we're between a rock and a hard place. I'm glad I'm not the one making the decisions. 100% this " | |||
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"Fact is the NHS has for the past thirty years been reduced by successive governments.. Fact is there are not enough staff to have both the nightingales and the main hospitals staffed, there wasn't at the high in April and there's more pressures on the current numbers of staff now.. The course of how the government is handling this is set and not about to to change, and yes they have made mistakes.. The main fact is if we change tack now with the new variant the numbers will overwhelm the NHS which is creaking at the moment.. So we can all argue as much as we like about this and that but the undeniable truth is that this current 'strategy' is how it is and we have to get through it and we will do.." | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed But people are losing loved ones people are committing suicide because of losing their homes their jobs! And belive me living with the fall out from suicide is truly devastating! X" i don’t mean this to come across as blunt as it does but not sure how else to word it suicide is a choice (and it wont be 100% down to lockdown) , covid is contagious and you don’t get the choice thereafter if you live or die suicide is devastating for those impacted but it is not a contagious pandemic level disease and can still be prevented while measures are in place for covid... there is no direct correlation of an either or scenario here | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? This for sure ^ There appears to be little to no application of common sense (expect no less from any government tho). Care homes is a great example of the level of ineptitude at play. Perhaps there are reasons that you don't have insight into? That's usually the reason and not that others who do have more awareness lack common sense. Resourcing a Nightingale hospital takes away resources from other hospitals that are stretched. Maybe this helps? Perhaps British Medical Association leader Dr Chaand Nagpaul does have common sense? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55413831 The NHS have had over a year to get ready for this. yet haven’t had time to refute staff or train them? for the hospitals that have been built within that time to deal with it. When will someone decide to train them, once they are full? again there are 6500 NHS staff on more than the PM. All experts every one of them, they’ve all got it wrong at some point, not all good solutions come from experts, the most effective solutions are the simplest " Train them for what? Boris said that the everything would be normal by Christmas. Train them with what? Training costs money. The nightingale hospital were just a publicity stunt by this useless government. Train who to do what? A year isn't a long time to train someone to keep people alive. Perhaps the simplest and most effective is the one they have now? | |||
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"How is the NHS holding up with no one working ? Shurley funding is going to be a issue eventually." and when the virus runs rampant how would it hold up (now not eventually) with all the staff home sick or in the beds themselves? | |||
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"If it's so bad why isn't ther whole nations wiped out the poor countrys that have no medical services the population riddled with HIV and aids starving ther immune system would be none existing youd think by now total fatalities world wide would be many millions higher but it's not there isnt 4000 people a day dying in the uk alone which the uk government said would happen and we've got an nhs to help us" The 4000 a day was based on not acting. When will people like you understand that scenarios like this don't happen because of the actions that are taken to prevent it from happening. | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. " chicken and egg really because the purpose of saving he NHS is to save lives | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? This for sure ^ There appears to be little to no application of common sense (expect no less from any government tho). Care homes is a great example of the level of ineptitude at play. Perhaps there are reasons that you don't have insight into? That's usually the reason and not that others who do have more awareness lack common sense. Resourcing a Nightingale hospital takes away resources from other hospitals that are stretched. Maybe this helps? Perhaps British Medical Association leader Dr Chaand Nagpaul does have common sense? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55413831 So what’s stopping covid staff from hospitals moving to nightingales to treat covid patients? At least the infected are isolated. It still doesn’t resolve the issue of non covid patients not being treated but at least the infection is isolated and out of mainstream hospital environments. Common sense . " Covid spreads in hospitals and it's not just because people go in with it. Patients with non-covid symptoms, staff who have picked it up elsewhere etc. It's not possibly to make hospitals covid free. It is possible to isolate covid patients in covid wards and protect the staff. | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? It’s simplistic but is a fair point "its overly simplistic, for it to work we would need to be trying to staff both the petrol station and the fire station from the same bank of people , with not enough bodies to man both | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? This for sure ^ There appears to be little to no application of common sense (expect no less from any government tho). Care homes is a great example of the level of ineptitude at play. Perhaps there are reasons that you don't have insight into? That's usually the reason and not that others who do have more awareness lack common sense. Resourcing a Nightingale hospital takes away resources from other hospitals that are stretched. Maybe this helps? Perhaps British Medical Association leader Dr Chaand Nagpaul does have common sense? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55413831 The NHS have had over a year to get ready for this. yet haven’t had time to refute staff or train them? for the hospitals that have been built within that time to deal with it. When will someone decide to train them, once they are full? again there are 6500 NHS staff on more than the PM. All experts every one of them, they’ve all got it wrong at some point, not all good solutions come from experts, the most effective solutions are the simplest Train them for what? Boris said that the everything would be normal by Christmas. Train them with what? Training costs money. The nightingale hospital were just a publicity stunt by this useless government. Train who to do what? A year isn't a long time to train someone to keep people alive. Perhaps the simplest and most effective is the one they have now?" Well obviously if you believe what a fool tells you, I can see why you have a problem lol Nhs started training, training staff back in March for the Nightingales. But who is training the trainers that are training the trainees? They have been built, they are real, they are not a set for a soap. A year is plenty enough time to up skill people & bring img others to replace them. I know blame Boris it works every time lol | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed" Most selfish looking people cannot see this as it's two steps in front of their feet. Also most of them don't like change least of all cope with it, but it's a bubble they live in of denial until the shoe is on the other foot. Life is a constant change, jobs come and go and come back again. Lives go and never return. You can't take a car, house or job with you. If anyone has been by the bedside of someone who is in their last few days, you never hear them calling for for their work colleagues or ask someone to bring work in for them to do but for loved ones. Death is a wake up call to what matters, some find it too late and never get to experience the joys of what really matters. | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? This for sure ^ There appears to be little to no application of common sense (expect no less from any government tho). Care homes is a great example of the level of ineptitude at play. Perhaps there are reasons that you don't have insight into? That's usually the reason and not that others who do have more awareness lack common sense. Resourcing a Nightingale hospital takes away resources from other hospitals that are stretched. Maybe this helps? Perhaps British Medical Association leader Dr Chaand Nagpaul does have common sense? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55413831 The NHS have had over a year to get ready for this. yet haven’t had time to refute staff or train them? for the hospitals that have been built within that time to deal with it. When will someone decide to train them, once they are full? again there are 6500 NHS staff on more than the PM. All experts every one of them, they’ve all got it wrong at some point, not all good solutions come from experts, the most effective solutions are the simplest Train them for what? Boris said that the everything would be normal by Christmas. Train them with what? Training costs money. The nightingale hospital were just a publicity stunt by this useless government. Train who to do what? A year isn't a long time to train someone to keep people alive. Perhaps the simplest and most effective is the one they have now? Well obviously if you believe what a fool tells you, I can see why you have a problem lol Nhs started training, training staff back in March for the Nightingales. But who is training the trainers that are training the trainees? They have been built, they are real, they are not a set for a soap. A year is plenty enough time to up skill people & bring img others to replace them. I know blame Boris it works every time lol " The training takes three years, that's for a nurse.. ICU/high dependacy takes longer.. And that's assuming there was a whole extra tranche over and above the norm with the additional trainers, resources etc sat waiting.. | |||
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"Please. If you want to come on here claimung to be quite happy to have lost your £200,000 a year job if it saves one life; thats not the question. Do your grandstanding elsewhere seemed to me it was exactly your question (how much you willing to give up out your own pocket?) " Yup. Ask a question, get an answer, then abuse the person who gave a specific answer to the specific question. Weird. Not that anyone said £200,000 in the first place. More weird. E | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? This for sure ^ There appears to be little to no application of common sense (expect no less from any government tho). Care homes is a great example of the level of ineptitude at play. Perhaps there are reasons that you don't have insight into? That's usually the reason and not that others who do have more awareness lack common sense. Resourcing a Nightingale hospital takes away resources from other hospitals that are stretched. Maybe this helps? Perhaps British Medical Association leader Dr Chaand Nagpaul does have common sense? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55413831 So what’s stopping covid staff from hospitals moving to nightingales to treat covid patients? At least the infected are isolated. It still doesn’t resolve the issue of non covid patients not being treated but at least the infection is isolated and out of mainstream hospital environments. Common sense . Covid spreads in hospitals and it's not just because people go in with it. Patients with non-covid symptoms, staff who have picked it up elsewhere etc. It's not possibly to make hospitals covid free. It is possible to isolate covid patients in covid wards and protect the staff. " I didn’t say it would eliminate covid from hospitals tho did I? Again, all I’m talking about is the application of common sense. A proper procedure for isolating covid patients away from main hospitals would lower the risk to other hospital staff and users | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? It’s simplistic but is a fair point
its overly simplistic, for it to work we would need to be trying to staff both the petrol station and the fire station from the same bank of people , with not enough bodies to man both"So we should just keep making the same mistake, are you one of those people that keep putting their hand in the fire & wonder why they get burnt? Or did you just make the mistake once & learn from it. Why send a COVID patient to infect none Covid patients. They have the staff my daughter was moved from cancer care to critical care ward because no cancer patients coming in, she wasn’t keen but like she said it’s her job & the SIMPLEST solution at the time. See it can be done | |||
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"If it's so bad why isn't ther whole nations wiped out the poor countrys that have no medical services the population riddled with HIV and aids starving ther immune system would be none existing youd think by now total fatalities world wide would be many millions higher but it's not there isnt 4000 people a day dying in the uk alone which the uk government said would happen and we've got an nhs to help us The 4000 a day was based on not acting. When will people like you understand that scenarios like this don't happen because of the actions that are taken to prevent it from happening." Actually the 4000 a day was based on the tier system and why valance stated we needed a lockdown. | |||
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"There has to be a trade off, but Boris doesn’t have the balls to say so. The long term damage won’t be his problem, he’ll be speaking at sine after dinner event for £10k while another government is making the toughest choices Looking around at the state of the care home sector and general treatment of the old and poor by this government, and the tax breaks for the rich, it’s very clear this government don’t think life is sacred at all, " Government especially a Tory government only care about what they can pocket for themselves and rich associates. The governement donr qork for the people, unless they are rich funders of said party. its a simple fact. | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? It’s simplistic but is a fair point
its overly simplistic, for it to work we would need to be trying to staff both the petrol station and the fire station from the same bank of people , with not enough bodies to man both
So we should just keep making the same mistake, are you one of those people that keep putting their hand in the fire & wonder why they get burnt? Or did you just make the mistake once & learn from it. Why send a COVID patient to infect none Covid patients. They have the staff my daughter was moved from cancer care to critical care ward because no cancer patients coming in, she wasn’t keen but like she said it’s her job & the SIMPLEST solution at the time. See it can be done "when did i say keep making the same mistakes? i just said the comparison being made way over simplified the problem it takes more than transferring a couple of nurses to staff an entire new hospital, and that new hospital isn’t even fully equipped for all emergency situations we arent sticking covid patients on general wards or having nurses in a covid ward in the morning then chuck them over to cancer after lunch 
we already have segregation within the hospitals , hospitals which are fully staffed and have all the required equipment ... thats already the simplest solution to the problem | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed The OPs original question is how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice....the OP had a response didn't like the response hence why they asked it again. So OP here's a question to you how many lives gone you know dead, gone forever, grieving families, mental health of a losing someone are YOU willing to sacrifice to save a job ??? . I’m simply inrigued by the often seen message that basically any price is worth paying to save a life. My question is how far is anyone prepared to go in taking that view. It has nothing to do with my personal experiences or even my own view point. It’s simply a question i’ve put out there. " Fair enough I see your point but what is your personal view point then | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. And my answer is as many as it takes , the economy will sort it’s self out and people will find other jobs but once a loved ones gone they can’t be re placed Most selfish looking people cannot see this as it's two steps in front of their feet. Also most of them don't like change least of all cope with it, but it's a bubble they live in of denial until the shoe is on the other foot. Life is a constant change, jobs come and go and come back again. Lives go and never return. You can't take a car, house or job with you. If anyone has been by the bedside of someone who is in their last few days, you never hear them calling for for their work colleagues or ask someone to bring work in for them to do but for loved ones. Death is a wake up call to what matters, some find it too late and never get to experience the joys of what really matters. " Of course jobs come and go! But u usually find another b 4 u loose the one u have and maybe your house ! Which can lead to losing your life! It's not really black and white is it? | |||
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"Simple answer is losing life is much worse than losing jobs. No simple answer unfortunately. Lives lost either way. OK. Most people expect to lose jobs now and then, always have done. It only means they have to get a new one. You don't die after redundancy. Just skint until the next job. Big deal Its the mass job loss.. on top of brexit thats going to fuck us up . Its not the same. I remember mass job losses in the 80s. Including my own. I just picked myself up and got a new job. People weren't suicidal then. " Ohh dear! Face palm !! | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? It’s simplistic but is a fair point
its overly simplistic, for it to work we would need to be trying to staff both the petrol station and the fire station from the same bank of people , with not enough bodies to man both
So we should just keep making the same mistake, are you one of those people that keep putting their hand in the fire & wonder why they get burnt? Or did you just make the mistake once & learn from it. Why send a COVID patient to infect none Covid patients. They have the staff my daughter was moved from cancer care to critical care ward because no cancer patients coming in, she wasn’t keen but like she said it’s her job & the SIMPLEST solution at the time. See it can be done
when did i say keep making the same mistakes? i just said the comparison being made way over simplified the problem
it takes more than transferring a couple of nurses to staff an entire new hospital, and that new hospital isn’t even fully equipped for all emergency situations
we arent sticking covid patients on general wards or having nurses in a covid ward in the morning then chuck them over to cancer after lunch
we already have segregation within the hospitals , hospitals which are fully staffed and have all the required equipment ... thats already the simplest solution to the problem "No one said nurses get moved from cancer ward to icu ward & back at the drop of a hat. But maybe you could explain what the 6500 NHS executives, directors, & managers that are paid more than Boris have been doing since March when they started training people to train people to work in the Nightingale hospitals. | |||
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"I find the lack of critical thinking on this thread worrying and emblematic of the issue as a whole. Someone suggesting that they don’t mind losing their highly paid job if it saves a single life is such an absurd statement bound in privilege and lack of empathy. Some people are worried about losing their jobs because they will not be able to get another one, become homeless, not be able to afford their child’s education etc. If you can lose your job and not worry, then of course you can care about a single life. And what life is it you are caring about? The 95 year old who only has months to live or the 70 year old with 20 good years? What about the 9 year old with leukaemia who is not getting tested? Is the 95 year old really equally important? Why are the cancer wards empty? How many will die from lack of treatment? You may not like it but the government has to make these calculations. Perhaps people might be more scared of losing their job if they didn’t think the job market will return to its previous state. A new normal may see millions of jobs permanently redundant. Being asked to stay at home is not giving up freedom? Well maybe not in your opinion this time but where do you draw the line? What about if there is a virus that’s half as deadly as this one? What about a quarter as deadly? Why don’t we lock down during flu season every year? What about if the government ordered lockdown to stop protests about something you care about? How can China be good for enforcing brutal lockdowns for Covid but bad for enforcing curfews to stop human rights protests? To be clear, I am not advocating for more or less lockdown, it just annoys me that no one can see that the people who want less lockdown are not necessarily being selfish or vice versa. Some of the greatest atrocities in human history are a result of populations not questioning their government. To be honest, I don’t think any government has done a good job on Covid, but ours is probably the worst. The mixed messaging, the errors in presentation of data, the corrupt contracts, the behaviour of people in a position of responsibility on both sides that contradicts the messaging and the avoidance of parliamentary scrutiny are leading us down a very dark path. " you say you dont advocate for one of the other, but then only attribute lack of critical thinking to one side of the argument its abundant on both sides of the fence where people can only see misery from lost lives or misery from lost jobs the truth is the balance needs to be somewhere in the middle where unfortunately we will lose some, perhaps even many of both... finding that optimum balance is most likely impossible and why no matter what camp you sit in you probably think the government failed you | |||
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"I have recently lost my £60k a year job along with its company car and bonuses so fair to say Covid as had a massive impact on my life but If it saves just one life it’s worth it to me . You can’t put a price on anyone’s life .. I didn’t ask that. I asked how many jobs is it ok to sacrifice. " Happy to sacrifice your life? Feel free | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? It’s simplistic but is a fair point
its overly simplistic, for it to work we would need to be trying to staff both the petrol station and the fire station from the same bank of people , with not enough bodies to man both
So we should just keep making the same mistake, are you one of those people that keep putting their hand in the fire & wonder why they get burnt? Or did you just make the mistake once & learn from it. Why send a COVID patient to infect none Covid patients. They have the staff my daughter was moved from cancer care to critical care ward because no cancer patients coming in, she wasn’t keen but like she said it’s her job & the SIMPLEST solution at the time. See it can be done
when did i say keep making the same mistakes? i just said the comparison being made way over simplified the problem
it takes more than transferring a couple of nurses to staff an entire new hospital, and that new hospital isn’t even fully equipped for all emergency situations
we arent sticking covid patients on general wards or having nurses in a covid ward in the morning then chuck them over to cancer after lunch
we already have segregation within the hospitals , hospitals which are fully staffed and have all the required equipment ... thats already the simplest solution to the problem
No one said nurses get moved from cancer ward to icu ward & back at the drop of a hat.
But maybe you could explain what the 6500 NHS executives, directors, & managers that are paid more than Boris have been doing since March when they started training people to train people to work in the Nightingale hospitals. "its already been explained further up, that training doesn’t happen overnight and the plan was never to use these hospitals instead of the existing ones anyway, it was to train up extra if they were required for an overspill... a bit like the army reserves i guess with all your expertise we should just sack these 6500 staff, and you can replace the lot of them im not saying all the decisions the nhs are making are correct, but there are people paid todo this planning, who will have looked at and disregarded multiple options you as an outsider thinking something looks like the simplest option so its stupid they havent done it would be like me knocking through my living room to the kitchen because i want more space , for a qualified builder to come tell me sorry love that was load bearing  | |||
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"I find the lack of critical thinking on this thread worrying and emblematic of the issue as a whole. Someone suggesting that they don’t mind losing their highly paid job if it saves a single life is such an absurd statement bound in privilege and lack of empathy. Some people are worried about losing their jobs because they will not be able to get another one, become homeless, not be able to afford their child’s education etc. If you can lose your job and not worry, then of course you can care about a single life. And what life is it you are caring about? The 95 year old who only has months to live or the 70 year old with 20 good years? What about the 9 year old with leukaemia who is not getting tested? Is the 95 year old really equally important? Why are the cancer wards empty? How many will die from lack of treatment? You may not like it but the government has to make these calculations. Perhaps people might be more scared of losing their job if they didn’t think the job market will return to its previous state. A new normal may see millions of jobs permanently redundant. Being asked to stay at home is not giving up freedom? Well maybe not in your opinion this time but where do you draw the line? What about if there is a virus that’s half as deadly as this one? What about a quarter as deadly? Why don’t we lock down during flu season every year? What about if the government ordered lockdown to stop protests about something you care about? How can China be good for enforcing brutal lockdowns for Covid but bad for enforcing curfews to stop human rights protests? To be clear, I am not advocating for more or less lockdown, it just annoys me that no one can see that the people who want less lockdown are not necessarily being selfish or vice versa. Some of the greatest atrocities in human history are a result of populations not questioning their government. To be honest, I don’t think any government has done a good job on Covid, but ours is probably the worst. The mixed messaging, the errors in presentation of data, the corrupt contracts, the behaviour of people in a position of responsibility on both sides that contradicts the messaging and the avoidance of parliamentary scrutiny are leading us down a very dark path. " When you talk about people not getting tested for cancer etc... Do you know why cancer wards are closed are they closed? How would taking no action over covid prevent this. The hospitals would still be forced to postpone treatments to deal with covid patients, there would be more. Covid patients as well. They would be more doctors and nurses taken ill by infection as well. so the situation would be worse. The problem is a lack of capacity to do both. | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? It’s simplistic but is a fair point
its overly simplistic, for it to work we would need to be trying to staff both the petrol station and the fire station from the same bank of people , with not enough bodies to man both
So we should just keep making the same mistake, are you one of those people that keep putting their hand in the fire & wonder why they get burnt? Or did you just make the mistake once & learn from it. Why send a COVID patient to infect none Covid patients. They have the staff my daughter was moved from cancer care to critical care ward because no cancer patients coming in, she wasn’t keen but like she said it’s her job & the SIMPLEST solution at the time. See it can be done
when did i say keep making the same mistakes? i just said the comparison being made way over simplified the problem
it takes more than transferring a couple of nurses to staff an entire new hospital, and that new hospital isn’t even fully equipped for all emergency situations
we arent sticking covid patients on general wards or having nurses in a covid ward in the morning then chuck them over to cancer after lunch
we already have segregation within the hospitals , hospitals which are fully staffed and have all the required equipment ... thats already the simplest solution to the problem
No one said nurses get moved from cancer ward to icu ward & back at the drop of a hat.
But maybe you could explain what the 6500 NHS executives, directors, & managers that are paid more than Boris have been doing since March when they started training people to train people to work in the Nightingale hospitals. "Have you ever thought that perhaps the Prime Minister's salary is what's wrong and not what others are paid? | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? It’s simplistic but is a fair point
its overly simplistic, for it to work we would need to be trying to staff both the petrol station and the fire station from the same bank of people , with not enough bodies to man both
So we should just keep making the same mistake, are you one of those people that keep putting their hand in the fire & wonder why they get burnt? Or did you just make the mistake once & learn from it. Why send a COVID patient to infect none Covid patients. They have the staff my daughter was moved from cancer care to critical care ward because no cancer patients coming in, she wasn’t keen but like she said it’s her job & the SIMPLEST solution at the time. See it can be done
when did i say keep making the same mistakes? i just said the comparison being made way over simplified the problem
it takes more than transferring a couple of nurses to staff an entire new hospital, and that new hospital isn’t even fully equipped for all emergency situations
we arent sticking covid patients on general wards or having nurses in a covid ward in the morning then chuck them over to cancer after lunch
we already have segregation within the hospitals , hospitals which are fully staffed and have all the required equipment ... thats already the simplest solution to the problem
No one said nurses get moved from cancer ward to icu ward & back at the drop of a hat.
But maybe you could explain what the 6500 NHS executives, directors, & managers that are paid more than Boris have been doing since March when they started training people to train people to work in the Nightingale hospitals.
its already been explained further up, that training doesn’t happen overnight and the plan was never to use these hospitals instead of the existing ones anyway, it was to train up extra if they were required for an overspill... a bit like the army reserves
i guess with all your expertise we should just sack these 6500 staff, and you can replace the lot of them
im not saying all the decisions the nhs are making are correct, but there are people paid todo this planning, who will have looked at and disregarded multiple options
you as an outsider thinking something looks like the simplest option so its stupid they havent done it would be like me knocking through my living room to the kitchen because i want more space , for a qualified builder to come tell me sorry love that was load bearing "The last paragraph is absolutely spot on. I work in IT. Plenty of finger pointing at my industry for failed projects etc. Usually by people whose own job requires next to no formal education but they think that they have common sense... There is usually a VERY good reason why a professional makes one decision over another... | |||
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"It's not about saving lives and the average age of 83 is neither here nor there - it's about preventing the NHS from being totally overwhelmed by patients. That's what it's all about. The lives saved are a bonus but the aim of the lockdowns etc is to protect the NHS. The Nightingale hospitals have still not been used, the NHS keep insisting on taking COVID patients to normal hospitals instead of isolating people in the facilities built, it’s a bit like me taking a chip pan that’s on fire to a petrol station instead of a fire station. Or am I just to simplistic? This for sure ^ There appears to be little to no application of common sense (expect no less from any government tho). Care homes is a great example of the level of ineptitude at play. Perhaps there are reasons that you don't have insight into? That's usually the reason and not that others who do have more awareness lack common sense. Resourcing a Nightingale hospital takes away resources from other hospitals that are stretched. Maybe this helps? Perhaps British Medical Association leader Dr Chaand Nagpaul does have common sense? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55413831 The NHS have had over a year to get ready for this. yet haven’t had time to refute staff or train them? for the hospitals that have been built within that time to deal with it. When will someone decide to train them, once they are full? again there are 6500 NHS staff on more than the PM. All experts every one of them, they’ve all got it wrong at some point, not all good solutions come from experts, the most effective solutions are the simplest Train them for what? Boris said that the everything would be normal by Christmas. Train them with what? Training costs money. The nightingale hospital were just a publicity stunt by this useless government. Train who to do what? A year isn't a long time to train someone to keep people alive. Perhaps the simplest and most effective is the one they have now? Well obviously if you believe what a fool tells you, I can see why you have a problem lol Nhs started training, training staff back in March for the Nightingales. But who is training the trainers that are training the trainees? They have been built, they are real, they are not a set for a soap. A year is plenty enough time to up skill people & bring img others to replace them. I know blame Boris it works every time lol " Sorry, i don't respond to people who "lol" after every sentence. It doesn't make your point an stronger. Anyway, there are a couple of replies that put you in your place. LOL LOL LOL  | |||
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"Let's all calm down take a deep breath, let's move on, ok should Boris change his hair style in the new year." I think he needs a bit more than a change of hair style.  | |||
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"Let's all calm down take a deep breath, let's move on, ok should Boris change his hair style in the new year." Tbf to him he has a impossible job! Dont think any of us would want! And yes he could do with a trim! X | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. " I wonder how your question might have been framed if there had been no covid risk reduction measures in place and the rate of infection was uncontrolled, the NHS was unable to accept routine emergencies, the relatives of those suffering were required to nurse and take care of them due to the breakdown of acute care infrastructure or members of your own family were routinely getting ill and dying? This is part of the problem, the dissenters are looking at covid through a narrow lens, based on the situation following risk containment, the outcomes to many dont appear too onerous where they're not being affected directly by the virus itself, other than in social/material terms. So in order to answer your question we need to fairly accurately assess what the impact might have been had the measures not been implemented in the first place. Incidentally, taking death rates in isolation is foolhardy, the true social/economic costs of the virus will be from those unfortunate individuals experiencing long covid as an illness who require long term care and may not return to a normal life ever. | |||
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"I don’t think you can compare “jobs lost vs lives lost” to covid. I’d say it is way more nuanced and you’d need to step back and look at the bigger picture rather than compare whose experiences is worse. It’s very sad people are losing loved ones to the disease - and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone what a horrible thing to go through as a family, but similarly kids are starving, people are actually killing themselves, people are losing their homes, they are desperate; lonely; anxious; sad and isolated. I think there is probably more significant long term damage being done on individuals and communities that are silent and that we are unable to quantify. Like if you look at the long term effects something like deindustrialization had in the north. So all we discuss is what we can see - which is folk losing their parents / grandparents. " Well said. The debate isn’t jobs vs lives it’s lives vs lives. People often say that the rich care about the economy more than lives. Ironically, the rich don’t need to care about the economy, if they lose their job, they are fine. It is the poor who should care about it. | |||
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"I don’t think you can compare “jobs lost vs lives lost” to covid. I’d say it is way more nuanced and you’d need to step back and look at the bigger picture rather than compare whose experiences is worse. It’s very sad people are losing loved ones to the disease - and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone what a horrible thing to go through as a family, but similarly kids are starving, people are actually killing themselves, people are losing their homes, they are desperate; lonely; anxious; sad and isolated. I think there is probably more significant long term damage being done on individuals and communities that are silent and that we are unable to quantify. Like if you look at the long term effects something like deindustrialization had in the north. So all we discuss is what we can see - which is folk losing their parents / grandparents. Well said. The debate isn’t jobs vs lives it’s lives vs lives. People often say that the rich care about the economy more than lives. Ironically, the rich don’t need to care about the economy, if they lose their job, they are fine. It is the poor who should care about it. " Being able to stay home, protect the nhs and save lives - is a privilege. | |||
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"Let's all calm down take a deep breath, let's move on, ok should Boris change his hair style in the new year. Tbf to him he has a impossible job! Dont think any of us would want! And yes he could do with a trim! X" Tbf he does not have an impossible job, plenty of other countries have had to deal with the exact same job and have done far better. Don't let them him get away with it by thinking this. The cronyism has been beyond belief, each step of the way he has dithered and messed up. | |||
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"I read many comments on here where people proudly declare that one death is too many and everyone but me is an irresponsible - - - - spreading death and suffering. So, given that the average age of those dying from covid is 83 and considering anyrhing else you want, please tell: how many livelihoods, bankruptcies, lost jobs, reposessed homes, displaced families is it fine to sacrifice to “save” each life. And following on, if you see yourself as some sort of moral saint exactly what percentage of your current income do you or will you give up to help these people ???? Hard figures please. Just wondering. " There is no limit... there is suffering in many ways, loss of income, loss of life, neither is going to get magicked away by idiots thinking “we can crack on” will save economies... economically we are fucked in a country that is awash with infection and a health service that is broken. I lost my next two years of contracts at the very start of this pandemic, effectively I lost my business and had to adapt... I now work for the NHS on about 1/2 my previous salary. Shit happens, it’s hard times, just shut up with whinging and get on with making the most of it is my advice. Yourself and the very predictable CDAC just paint yourselves as materialistic, selfish and extremely ignorant people to be honest. You can demand “hard figures”, I think sadly very few people reading you’re selfish tripe sees why they need to justify basic human compassion to someone with your mindset. I pity those around you. | |||
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