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natural selection
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course |
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"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course"
Not really, the Spanish Flu hit the young, fit adults the hardest, so No, viruses arnt that discriminating |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course"
Perhaps but I somehow think you’d be of a different opinion if you were in your 70s rather than your 40s. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
Not really, the Spanish Flu hit the young, fit adults the hardest, so No, viruses arnt that discriminating "
this isnt spanish flue tho, and it does seem that if you are young and fit, you are much less likely to suffer from it |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
Perhaps but I somehow think you’d be of a different opinion if you were in your 70s rather than your 40s."
due to verious health issues i am in a very high risk group, so more likely than most to die from it, this was ment to be a debate, not a personal thing |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Indeed. But maybe I'm just sick to fucking death of some people talking about the old, the vulnerable and those with underlying health conditions like they're expendable. That they don't matter. That they have no value. |
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"Indeed. But maybe I'm just sick to fucking death of some people talking about the old, the vulnerable and those with underlying health conditions like they're expendable. That they don't matter. That they have no value. "
 |
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"Hitler had a similar idea
No he didnt...his approach was completely different.
Wasnt his approach to get rid of people who were of no longer any use to society?
Initially yes."
So this the same argument? |
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By *lex46TV/TS
over a year ago
Near Wells |
"Indeed. But maybe I'm just sick to fucking death of some people talking about the old, the vulnerable and those with underlying health conditions like they're expendable. That they don't matter. That they have no value. "
Especially if it was this Mother's, Fathers, Grandparents etc, or would that be different then? |
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"Indeed. But maybe I'm just sick to fucking death of some people talking about the old, the vulnerable and those with underlying health conditions like they're expendable. That they don't matter. That they have no value. "
Well said |
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"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course"
Hitting the healthcare workers, teachers etc all the key workers so what’s left? Middle class middle income people that work from home... the talent’s all gone  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
Hitting the healthcare workers, teachers etc all the key workers so what’s left? Middle class middle income people that work from home... the talent’s all gone "
She shoots, she scores!! |
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"Indeed. But maybe I'm just sick to fucking death of some people talking about the old, the vulnerable and those with underlying health conditions like they're expendable. That they don't matter. That they have no value. "
This..
The layers that are humanity and civilization are slowly peeling away and what's being revealed is at times whilst not a surprise, sad.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Indeed. But maybe I'm just sick to fucking death of some people talking about the old, the vulnerable and those with underlying health conditions like they're expendable. That they don't matter. That they have no value. "
Thats exactly how it feels.
People keep talking about how this virus is affecting people's mental health now imagine being in a group where you are constantly that somehow your life doesn't matter as much as somebody who is younger and fitter. |
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"Indeed. But maybe I'm just sick to fucking death of some people talking about the old, the vulnerable and those with underlying health conditions like they're expendable. That they don't matter. That they have no value. "
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"Hitler had a similar idea
No he didnt...his approach was completely different.
Wasnt his approach to get rid of people who were of no longer any use to society?
Initially yes.
So this the same argument?"
Seems pretty much that way.
Difference being that the proponents leave it to a virus rather than getting their hands dirty. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Hitler had a similar idea
No he didnt...his approach was completely different.
Wasnt his approach to get rid of people who were of no longer any use to society?"
probably wouldn't pay as much tax if he had succeeded. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A few months of working from home and people are calling for a logans run type of society.
I'm not wearing one of those black and white jumpers
They had cool cars though and Jenny agutter"
Or heather menzies |
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"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course"
Probably stronger but not nicer as to me that would be a horrible legacy. |
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"Hitler had a similar idea
No he didnt...his approach was completely different."
To some point he did he had doctors assessing the old the disabled and the vulnerable and extinguished life.
You only have to look at what happened to vulnerable people as in handicapped, mental illnesses that lost their life. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Hitler had a similar idea
No he didnt...his approach was completely different.
Wasnt his approach to get rid of people who were of no longer any use to society?"
It certainly was. I was in the museum of terror in Berlin earlier this year and there was a whole section about Hitler emptying nursing homes, mental hospitals and the disabled and sending them to extermination camps.
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"Hitler had a similar idea
No he didnt...his approach was completely different.
Wasnt his approach to get rid of people who were of no longer any use to society?
It certainly was. I was in the museum of terror in Berlin earlier this year and there was a whole section about Hitler emptying nursing homes, mental hospitals and the disabled and sending them to extermination camps.
"
So a few months of lockdown are we resort to nazi Germany,?
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"I think this thread has taken a slight detour "
I don't think it has in the slightest.
The op suggested we should let the virus run its course on the old and vulnerable (a view that's been hinted at by other posters)
This is the type of policy that hitler initially advocated. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think this thread has taken a slight detour
I don't think it has in the slightest.
The op suggested we should let the virus run its course on the old and vulnerable (a view that's been hinted at by other posters)
This is the type of policy that hitler initially advocated. "
OK I'm now going in the corn on the cob forum |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"Hitler had a similar idea
No he didnt...his approach was completely different.
Wasnt his approach to get rid of people who were of no longer any use to society?
It certainly was. I was in the museum of terror in Berlin earlier this year and there was a whole section about Hitler emptying nursing homes, mental hospitals and the disabled and sending them to extermination camps.
So a few months of lockdown are we resort to nazi Germany,?
"
It obviously wasn't that far away from some folks thinking. Pubs closed for a few weeks, lets do some societal cleansing, eh. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Natural selection is completely misunderstood and misquoted as a theory. Natural selection is based on completely random mutations. It can't be planned or controlled like selective breeding can. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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i think the point is that the world age expectancy has reached an unnaturally high level. only a century or so ago if you got to 70 you were ancient. Even Royalty and rich died much earlier. The world has too many people. the trees and the sea would agree.
science now keeps people artificially alive.. it really does need to be openly discussed as biggest elephant in the room |
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"i think the point is that the world age expectancy has reached an unnaturally high level. only a century or so ago if you got to 70 you were ancient. Even Royalty and rich died much earlier. The world has too many people. the trees and the sea would agree.
science now keeps people artificially alive.. it really does need to be openly discussed as biggest elephant in the room"
I don't really get this overcrowding argument
There are vast areas around the globe which are very thinly populated.
And we have been destroying the environment for decades.Thats nothing to do with overcrowding. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"i think the point is that the world age expectancy has reached an unnaturally high level. only a century or so ago if you got to 70 you were ancient. Even Royalty and rich died much earlier. The world has too many people. the trees and the sea would agree.
science now keeps people artificially alive.. it really does need to be openly discussed as biggest elephant in the room"
Artificially alive?  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think this thread has taken a slight detour
I don't think it has in the slightest.
The op suggested we should let the virus run its course on the old and vulnerable (a view that's been hinted at by other posters)
This is the type of policy that hitler initially advocated. "
He was talking about natural selection.
Not a man who wanted to engineer a master race.
That's called MAN made selection. |
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"I think this thread has taken a slight detour
I don't think it has in the slightest.
The op suggested we should let the virus run its course on the old and vulnerable (a view that's been hinted at by other posters)
This is the type of policy that hitler initially advocated.
He was talking about natural selection.
Not a man who wanted to engineer a master race.
That's called MAN made selection."
He wanted to get rid of people who were no longer important to society..the elderly..the inform.. the vulnerable
Its man who are protecting the elderly etc.If we drop that support the result is exactly the same. |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
Back to the original thread....... how would the human race be stronger ? If life expectancy reduced a bit through things like COVID is there any evidence if benefits ? Do the costs of keeping old/sick peoples alive outweigh the benefits on economy, family, community, what type of people do we want to become ? |
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"Back to the original thread....... how would the human race be stronger ? If life expectancy reduced a bit through things like COVID is there any evidence if benefits ? Do the costs of keeping old/sick peoples alive outweigh the benefits on economy, family, community, what type of people do we want to become ? "
The sign of a humane society is how it looks after its most weak and vulnerable surely? |
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"i think the point is that the world age expectancy has reached an unnaturally high level. only a century or so ago if you got to 70 you were ancient. Even Royalty and rich died much earlier. The world has too many people. the trees and the sea would agree.
science now keeps people artificially alive.. it really does need to be openly discussed as biggest elephant in the room"
My mum frequently says she should be dead, my dad refers to himself as a spare part. You could say that my mum has been kept "artificially" alive due to advances in medecine made possible by the natural ability of human intelligence.
Both my parents feel that the world resents them living and I'm beginning to understand why. Between them they raised 4 children who paid tax all their lives. My father worked from the age of 14 until 75 paying tax and national insurance. Whether they're being kept alive artificially or not they have every right to existence. |
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"Back to the original thread....... how would the human race be stronger ? If life expectancy reduced a bit through things like COVID is there any evidence if benefits ? Do the costs of keeping old/sick peoples alive outweigh the benefits on economy, family, community, what type of people do we want to become ?
The sign of a humane society is how it looks after its most weak and vulnerable surely?"
I think recent events are showing that in our society at least humane behaviour extends only to those under 60 who are able to contribute financially |
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"Back to the original thread....... how would the human race be stronger ? If life expectancy reduced a bit through things like COVID is there any evidence if benefits ? Do the costs of keeping old/sick peoples alive outweigh the benefits on economy, family, community, what type of people do we want to become ?
The sign of a humane society is how it looks after its most weak and vulnerable surely?
I think recent events are showing that in our society at least humane behaviour extends only to those under 60 who are able to contribute financially"
Looks that way. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I think this thread has taken a slight detour
I don't think it has in the slightest.
The op suggested we should let the virus run its course on the old and vulnerable (a view that's been hinted at by other posters)
This is the type of policy that hitler initially advocated.
He was talking about natural selection.
Not a man who wanted to engineer a master race.
That's called MAN made selection.
He wanted to get rid of people who were no longer important to society..the elderly..the inform.. the vulnerable
Its man who are protecting the elderly etc.If we drop that support the result is exactly the same. "
Lol you would argue that black was white  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think this thread has taken a slight detour
I don't think it has in the slightest.
The op suggested we should let the virus run its course on the old and vulnerable (a view that's been hinted at by other posters)
This is the type of policy that hitler initially advocated.
He was talking about natural selection.
Not a man who wanted to engineer a master race.
That's called MAN made selection.
He wanted to get rid of people who were no longer important to society..the elderly..the inform.. the vulnerable
Its man who are protecting the elderly etc.If we drop that support the result is exactly the same. "
Herd immunity and Hitler's eugenics are both in the same morality spectrum |
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"I think this thread has taken a slight detour
I don't think it has in the slightest.
The op suggested we should let the virus run its course on the old and vulnerable (a view that's been hinted at by other posters)
This is the type of policy that hitler initially advocated.
He was talking about natural selection.
Not a man who wanted to engineer a master race.
That's called MAN made selection.
He wanted to get rid of people who were no longer important to society..the elderly..the inform.. the vulnerable
Its man who are protecting the elderly etc.If we drop that support the result is exactly the same.
Lol you would argue that black was white "
Explain the difference |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Back to the original thread....... how would the human race be stronger ? If life expectancy reduced a bit through things like COVID is there any evidence if benefits ? Do the costs of keeping old/sick peoples alive outweigh the benefits on economy, family, community, what type of people do we want to become ?
The sign of a humane society is how it looks after its most weak and vulnerable surely?"
|
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"Back to the original thread....... how would the human race be stronger ? If life expectancy reduced a bit through things like COVID is there any evidence if benefits ? Do the costs of keeping old/sick peoples alive outweigh the benefits on economy, family, community, what type of people do we want to become ?
The sign of a humane society is how it looks after its most weak and vulnerable surely?
I think recent events are showing that in our society at least humane behaviour extends only to those under 60 who are able to contribute financially
Looks that way."
I genuinely don't believe the majority feel that way and of those who do once you get into discussion and talk about what that would really look like opinions can start to change. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"i think the point is that the world age expectancy has reached an unnaturally high level. only a century or so ago if you got to 70 you were ancient. Even Royalty and rich died much earlier. The world has too many people. the trees and the sea would agree.
science now keeps people artificially alive.. it really does need to be openly discussed as biggest elephant in the room"
Are you arguing against the use of medicine? |
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"Back to the original thread....... how would the human race be stronger ? If life expectancy reduced a bit through things like COVID is there any evidence if benefits ? Do the costs of keeping old/sick peoples alive outweigh the benefits on economy, family, community, what type of people do we want to become ?
The sign of a humane society is how it looks after its most weak and vulnerable surely?
I think recent events are showing that in our society at least humane behaviour extends only to those under 60 who are able to contribute financially
Looks that way.
I genuinely don't believe the majority feel that way and of those who do once you get into discussion and talk about what that would really look like opinions can start to change. "
Lots wont come out and say it.
There have been loads of threads pointing out the average age of someone dying is in their 80s. |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course"
Is your surname Cummings? |
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Natural selection isn't about the individual. It's on the population level. I doubt Covid is a particularly high selection pressure event to derail the success of humanity. The global population will continue its upward trend. Suggest reading about the theory before expounding forth about it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I think this thread has taken a slight detour
I don't think it has in the slightest.
The op suggested we should let the virus run its course on the old and vulnerable (a view that's been hinted at by other posters)
This is the type of policy that hitler initially advocated.
He was talking about natural selection.
Not a man who wanted to engineer a master race.
That's called MAN made selection.
He wanted to get rid of people who were no longer important to society..the elderly..the inform.. the vulnerable
Its man who are protecting the elderly etc.If we drop that support the result is exactly the same.
Lol you would argue that black was white
Explain the difference "
Not going to even bother .
 |
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"Back to the original thread....... how would the human race be stronger ? If life expectancy reduced a bit through things like COVID is there any evidence if benefits ? Do the costs of keeping old/sick peoples alive outweigh the benefits on economy, family, community, what type of people do we want to become ?
The sign of a humane society is how it looks after its most weak and vulnerable surely?
I think recent events are showing that in our society at least humane behaviour extends only to those under 60 who are able to contribute financially
Looks that way.
I genuinely don't believe the majority feel that way and of those who do once you get into discussion and talk about what that would really look like opinions can start to change.
Lots wont come out and say it.
There have been loads of threads pointing out the average age of someone dying is in their 80s."
Yep and lots of "real" people I talk to say the same thing. We really don't value older people at all despite the enormous contribution they've made to society and the fact that none of us would be here without them. Oh you've got nothing useful to offer me, you're expendable. |
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"I think this thread has taken a slight detour
I don't think it has in the slightest.
The op suggested we should let the virus run its course on the old and vulnerable (a view that's been hinted at by other posters)
This is the type of policy that hitler initially advocated.
He was talking about natural selection.
Not a man who wanted to engineer a master race.
That's called MAN made selection.
He wanted to get rid of people who were no longer important to society..the elderly..the inform.. the vulnerable
Its man who are protecting the elderly etc.If we drop that support the result is exactly the same.
Lol you would argue that black was white
Explain the difference
Not going to even bother .
"
Obvs. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Natural selection is completely misunderstood and misquoted as a theory. Natural selection is based on completely random mutations. It can't be planned or controlled like selective breeding can."
Exactly. |
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"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course"
The human race would be a lot stronger if we could get rid of the stupid and the lazy people
We're not allowed to do that either though. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
The human race would be a lot stronger if we could get rid of the stupid and the lazy people
We're not allowed to do that either though."
now that is something i agree with |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"i think the point is that the world age expectancy has reached an unnaturally high level. only a century or so ago if you got to 70 you were ancient. Even Royalty and rich died much earlier. The world has too many people. the trees and the sea would agree.
science now keeps people artificially alive.. it really does need to be openly discussed as biggest elephant in the room"
Science keeps lots of people alive. Me amongst them. Along with anyone who takes any sort of medication that prevents them from dying. Or anyone who requires any sort of medical intervention to save their life, from babies in the womb, to the frail and elderly, to those who require life saving surgery and a myriad of others in between.
Should we just abandon that? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course"
Should we apply this idea to other illnesses that kill the old and vulnerable ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"i think the point is that the world age expectancy has reached an unnaturally high level. only a century or so ago if you got to 70 you were ancient. Even Royalty and rich died much earlier. The world has too many people. the trees and the sea would agree.
science now keeps people artificially alive.. it really does need to be openly discussed as biggest elephant in the room
Science keeps lots of people alive. Me amongst them. Along with anyone who takes any sort of medication that prevents them from dying. Or anyone who requires any sort of medical intervention to save their life, from babies in the womb, to the frail and elderly, to those who require life saving surgery and a myriad of others in between.
Should we just abandon that? "
nope not at all.. but its definately a factor in where we are now. my mum is crippled with dementia and we are trying to get her a New house and she still thinks she is living in her childhood home with seven brothers and sisters running around and talking to her.. in a moment of clarity she said.. why should i move.. id be dead soon... ironically, physically she is fit as a fiddle..
.. its just the more people in the world.. the more fossil fuels burned etc.. it just needs to be part of the convo.. no matter how difficult.. a world wide pandemic is quite difficult eh? and not just tory mis management
d |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"i think the point is that the world age expectancy has reached an unnaturally high level. only a century or so ago if you got to 70 you were ancient. Even Royalty and rich died much earlier. The world has too many people. the trees and the sea would agree.
science now keeps people artificially alive.. it really does need to be openly discussed as biggest elephant in the room
Science keeps lots of people alive. Me amongst them. Along with anyone who takes any sort of medication that prevents them from dying. Or anyone who requires any sort of medical intervention to save their life, from babies in the womb, to the frail and elderly, to those who require life saving surgery and a myriad of others in between.
Should we just abandon that?
nope not at all.. but its definately a factor in where we are now. my mum is crippled with dementia and we are trying to get her a New house and she still thinks she is living in her childhood home with seven brothers and sisters running around and talking to her.. in a moment of clarity she said.. why should i move.. id be dead soon... ironically, physically she is fit as a fiddle..
.. its just the more people in the world.. the more fossil fuels burned etc.. it just needs to be part of the convo.. no matter how difficult.. a world wide pandemic is quite difficult eh? and not just tory mis management
d"
There are different and better ways to stop overpopulation and burning too many fossil fuels though? Letting old people die isn’t acceptable in a civilised society |
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By *dsindyTV/TS
over a year ago
East Lancashire |
"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course"
In one word........NO.
And if two words are needed....FUCKING NO.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"i think the point is that the world age expectancy has reached an unnaturally high level. only a century or so ago if you got to 70 you were ancient. Even Royalty and rich died much earlier. The world has too many people. the trees and the sea would agree.
science now keeps people artificially alive.. it really does need to be openly discussed as biggest elephant in the room
Science keeps lots of people alive. Me amongst them. Along with anyone who takes any sort of medication that prevents them from dying. Or anyone who requires any sort of medical intervention to save their life, from babies in the womb, to the frail and elderly, to those who require life saving surgery and a myriad of others in between.
Should we just abandon that?
nope not at all.. but its definately a factor in where we are now. my mum is crippled with dementia and we are trying to get her a New house and she still thinks she is living in her childhood home with seven brothers and sisters running around and talking to her.. in a moment of clarity she said.. why should i move.. id be dead soon... ironically, physically she is fit as a fiddle..
.. its just the more people in the world.. the more fossil fuels burned etc.. it just needs to be part of the convo.. no matter how difficult.. a world wide pandemic is quite difficult eh? and not just tory mis management
d
There are different and better ways to stop overpopulation and burning too many fossil fuels though? Letting old people die isn’t acceptable in a civilised society "
of course it isn't. but it will be problem to deal with. Science and progress are always laced with side effects. As it's got easier to manage scientifically the more taboo death has become
i had a daughter die aged 2 weeks years ago which still traumatises me . maybe death has already called early at my door
d |
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"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
Not really, the Spanish Flu hit the young, fit adults the hardest, so No, viruses arnt that discriminating "
2nd wave was worse pneumonia caused by mask wearing apparently  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"i think the point is that the world age expectancy has reached an unnaturally high level. only a century or so ago if you got to 70 you were ancient. Even Royalty and rich died much earlier. The world has too many people. the trees and the sea would agree.
science now keeps people artificially alive.. it really does need to be openly discussed as biggest elephant in the room
Science keeps lots of people alive. Me amongst them. Along with anyone who takes any sort of medication that prevents them from dying. Or anyone who requires any sort of medical intervention to save their life, from babies in the womb, to the frail and elderly, to those who require life saving surgery and a myriad of others in between.
Should we just abandon that?
nope not at all.. but its definately a factor in where we are now. my mum is crippled with dementia and we are trying to get her a New house and she still thinks she is living in her childhood home with seven brothers and sisters running around and talking to her.. in a moment of clarity she said.. why should i move.. id be dead soon... ironically, physically she is fit as a fiddle..
.. its just the more people in the world.. the more fossil fuels burned etc.. it just needs to be part of the convo.. no matter how difficult.. a world wide pandemic is quite difficult eh? and not just tory mis management
d
There are different and better ways to stop overpopulation and burning too many fossil fuels though? Letting old people die isn’t acceptable in a civilised society
of course it isn't. but it will be problem to deal with. Science and progress are always laced with side effects. As it's got easier to manage scientifically the more taboo death has become
i had a daughter die aged 2 weeks years ago which still traumatises me . maybe death has already called early at my door
d"
I am really sorry to hear that , it must have been devastating, I think science and medical advances are an advantage to the human race, Euthanasia should be an option to some cases though |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
Not really, the Spanish Flu hit the young, fit adults the hardest, so No, viruses arnt that discriminating
2nd wave was worse pneumonia caused by mask wearing apparently "
‘Apparently’ ?? |
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"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
Not really, the Spanish Flu hit the young, fit adults the hardest, so No, viruses arnt that discriminating
2nd wave was worse pneumonia caused by mask wearing apparently "
That's strange how does that work was it the elastic round the ears? |
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"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
Not really, the Spanish Flu hit the young, fit adults the hardest, so No, viruses arnt that discriminating
2nd wave was worse pneumonia caused by mask wearing apparently
‘Apparently’ ??"
Pneumonia is a bacterial infection which isn’t helped by covid.. nothing to do with wearing masks. |
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"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
Not really, the Spanish Flu hit the young, fit adults the hardest, so No, viruses arnt that discriminating
2nd wave was worse pneumonia caused by mask wearing apparently
‘Apparently’ ??
Pneumonia is a bacterial infection which isn’t helped by covid.. nothing to do with wearing masks."
Pneumonia just means infection of the air sacs of the lung. You can have pneumonia caused by viruses, bacteria or fungi |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
Not really, the Spanish Flu hit the young, fit adults the hardest, so No, viruses arnt that discriminating
2nd wave was worse pneumonia caused by mask wearing apparently "
You’re talking shit, apparently. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
Not really, the Spanish Flu hit the young, fit adults the hardest, so No, viruses arnt that discriminating
2nd wave was worse pneumonia caused by mask wearing apparently "
Please have a general read about masks and mask wearing during the Spanish flu outbreak. It may give you some insight |
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By *mmmMaybeCouple
over a year ago
West Wales |
"i think the point is that the world age expectancy has reached an unnaturally high level. only a century or so ago if you got to 70 you were ancient. Even Royalty and rich died much earlier. The world has too many people. the trees and the sea would agree.
science now keeps people artificially alive.. it really does need to be openly discussed as biggest elephant in the room
Science keeps lots of people alive. Me amongst them. Along with anyone who takes any sort of medication that prevents them from dying. Or anyone who requires any sort of medical intervention to save their life, from babies in the womb, to the frail and elderly, to those who require life saving surgery and a myriad of others in between.
Should we just abandon that?
nope not at all.. but its definately a factor in where we are now. my mum is crippled with dementia and we are trying to get her a New house and she still thinks she is living in her childhood home with seven brothers and sisters running around and talking to her.. in a moment of clarity she said.. why should i move.. id be dead soon... ironically, physically she is fit as a fiddle..
.. its just the more people in the world.. the more fossil fuels burned etc.. it just needs to be part of the convo.. no matter how difficult.. a world wide pandemic is quite difficult eh? and not just tory mis management
d
There are different and better ways to stop overpopulation and burning too many fossil fuels though? Letting old people die isn’t acceptable in a civilised society "
But you talk like it would have to be an idea of many when in reality this could all have been started by just the one who believed it could lead to a “Better” world? & yes there are other answers problem is if they restrict most people in any way shape or form they’ll say “Nice idea but fuck off”.
S |
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Natural selection works via survival of the fittest, ie. those having better traits allowing survival than others.
It's not a case of those members of a species meeting death as soon as they counter something that can kill them. If it was, most humans would already be dead, as we've encountered threats for thousands of years that we can counter, though not always via physiological advantage.
Our species has typically survived because we have a brain that indirectly confers advantages over others, which did not. It partly allows for us to acquire knowledge, memories and to use them in conjunction with thinking and reasoning, as well as the fantastic tool of communication. These intellectual and social tools allow us to achieve greater than 1 individual can, allowing for survival of more than 1 person.
The medical advances we've made, following thousands of years of using plants that had survival properties for us, lead us to today's drugs and medical procedures that help others. We have vaccines under trial which could potentially allow people to survive who did not make the vaccines - survival of the fittest doesn't just mean that a person who can do something that others can't is the sole survivor.
We made things from stones, to help to kill animals. Later we melted metals, which improved on stone tools, crafting sharp cutting edges, that aided survival. Those having empathy for others, good social skills, allowed for social gains to be shared.
We will face many more viruses coming from other animals, because we are intruding on their habitats. Our intelligence and social skills should support us to know to stop this, due to the danger. Other viruses will affect us worse than this 1 and they may lead to the end of our species, because we didn't favour leaders with the right qualities, preferring substandard swamplife like Trump. That could be the end of us. This virus is probably going to be overcome by the vast majority because of social healthcare and appropriate controls and behaviour. |
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By *hagTonightMan
over a year ago
From the land of haribos. |
"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
Not really, the Spanish Flu hit the young, fit adults the hardest, so No, viruses arnt that discriminating "
Covid cant be compared to the spanish flu they are totally different, on the who's site it sais there are mainly 2 categories, age and underlying conditions tho.
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Natural selection takes out individual with genes that give attributes least fit to survive in their environment. Not very useful natural selection to take out the none breeding demographic, it doesn’t progress a species. |
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"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course
Not really, the Spanish Flu hit the young, fit adults the hardest, so No, viruses arnt that discriminating
2nd wave was worse pneumonia caused by mask wearing apparently
‘Apparently’ ??"
A very common word in the english language it's also incorrectly defined in the dictionary
The true meaning of "apparently" is "I just made this up" |
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"so this awfull virus has hit us
we are an over populated world, is this natural selection at work?
it after all is hitting the old and ill hardest
would the human race be stronger if we just let it run its course"
Tell me.
What's the point in advanced medical science and technology if we are unwilling to help people when they need it??
With your logic we should let anyone die who has any illness that you deem to be a burden on society. |
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The I think the CandDP / fabtastic999 conversation above is a stupidly important one. And one that's really hard to discuss without potentially sounding like someone you really aren't. It was the sort of thing that's so great to see here, to balance of the "wanna fuk"s...
As science gets more and more powerful, lives get longer and more miserable in various ways for so many people. Because we *can* keep people alive longer, our moral compass says, that we therefore must. Which makes sense at a high level but just like your house vs your home, so many have no life any more, they're merely alive.
To me it feels like there must come a point where classical views on morality are going to have to be reassessed. Death has always provided an robust opposition to fight against, but when we keep winning battles, the war for some has long been lost.
And in line with the moral angle, we still also need to maintain a functional society from an economic perspective. "Cheap" deaths fade away and get replaced with "expensive" ones. Expensive to treat, and then expensive to maintain the lives afterwards as so many people fade away in homes and hospitals, surrounded by staff and drugs and machinery.
Despite being broadly liberal in my outlook, at some point there are some very uncomfortable conversations we need to have. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The I think the CandDP / fabtastic999 conversation above is a stupidly important one. And one that's really hard to discuss without potentially sounding like someone you really aren't. It was the sort of thing that's so great to see here, to balance of the "wanna fuk"s...
As science gets more and more powerful, lives get longer and more miserable in various ways for so many people. Because we *can* keep people alive longer, our moral compass says, that we therefore must. Which makes sense at a high level but just like your house vs your home, so many have no life any more, they're merely alive.
To me it feels like there must come a point where classical views on morality are going to have to be reassessed. Death has always provided an robust opposition to fight against, but when we keep winning battles, the war for some has long been lost.
And in line with the moral angle, we still also need to maintain a functional society from an economic perspective. "Cheap" deaths fade away and get replaced with "expensive" ones. Expensive to treat, and then expensive to maintain the lives afterwards as so many people fade away in homes and hospitals, surrounded by staff and drugs and machinery.
Despite being broadly liberal in my outlook, at some point there are some very uncomfortable conversations we need to have."
that's a brilliant write up! |
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By *mmmMaybeCouple
over a year ago
West Wales |
"The I think the CandDP / fabtastic999 conversation above is a stupidly important one. And one that's really hard to discuss without potentially sounding like someone you really aren't. It was the sort of thing that's so great to see here, to balance of the "wanna fuk"s...
As science gets more and more powerful, lives get longer and more miserable in various ways for so many people. Because we *can* keep people alive longer, our moral compass says, that we therefore must. Which makes sense at a high level but just like your house vs your home, so many have no life any more, they're merely alive.
To me it feels like there must come a point where classical views on morality are going to have to be reassessed. Death has always provided an robust opposition to fight against, but when we keep winning battles, the war for some has long been lost.
And in line with the moral angle, we still also need to maintain a functional society from an economic perspective. "Cheap" deaths fade away and get replaced with "expensive" ones. Expensive to treat, and then expensive to maintain the lives afterwards as so many people fade away in homes and hospitals, surrounded by staff and drugs and machinery.
Despite being broadly liberal in my outlook, at some point there are some very uncomfortable conversations we need to have."
Things happen that Make you start to question life & the status quo. On a personal level one that recures with me is Cancer. Cancer UK have been around for 110yrs give or take, raises billions, invested billions in research, cured none, helped find drugs to help with many.
So your “Business” is charity funding, it’s a very big business & you are one of many such businesses both charities, research & pharma earning from it.
In true matrix fashion in the safe you have a blue pill which eradicates 90% of cancers overnight, wipes out the whole industry & creates population issues for the world as overnight people live to be 100 minimum or you have a red pill that alleviates the pain of those cancers keeps you all in business & doesn’t add to population issues.
Which would you release to the public?
It ain’t going to be the blue pill.
I think there will need to be a massive change in “Working” lives in the future. When you retire will be variable depending on what you do. Maybe even the retirement could be moved for instance take 10 years when you are 20/30 you get a basic card that pays for cheap worldwide travel, moderate digs & food. But then you don’t retire till 10yrs later than your time to offset it, the world gains maybe from having a generation of people who have a more worldwide outlook on life? Maybe, maybe not.
Of course none of this will happen because everyone will have to do it, not just one country & many countries control their population by education or lack of it & one thing travel always does is educate.
S |
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"Things happen that Make you start to question life & the status quo. On a personal level one that recures with me is Cancer. Cancer UK have been around for 110yrs give or take, raises billions, invested billions in research, cured none, helped find drugs to help with many.
So your “Business” is charity funding, it’s a very big business & you are one of many such businesses both charities, research & pharma earning from it.
In true matrix fashion in the safe you have a blue pill which eradicates 90% of cancers overnight, wipes out the whole industry & creates population issues for the world as overnight people live to be 100 minimum or you have a red pill that alleviates the pain of those cancers keeps you all in business & doesn’t add to population issues.
Which would you release to the public?
It ain’t going to be the blue pill.
I think there will need to be a massive change in “Working” lives in the future. When you retire will be variable depending on what you do. Maybe even the retirement could be moved for instance take 10 years when you are 20/30 you get a basic card that pays for cheap worldwide travel, moderate digs & food. But then you don’t retire till 10yrs later than your time to offset it, the world gains maybe from having a generation of people who have a more worldwide outlook on life? Maybe, maybe not.
Of course none of this will happen because everyone will have to do it, not just one country & many countries control their population by education or lack of it & one thing travel always does is educate.
S"
Cancer research is certainly one that made me start thinking about these things more. you've got to go of something. If not that, then what? But there they are spending so so much on "awareness" and wristbands, all just going to create more money... Obviously there is a lot of undeniable good coming out of the research, but it's not as obviously good as so many think it is.
And these things are creating their own problems, spiralling out of control. As life expectancy increases, the more variety there is in the means and abilities of an older person. Things like retirement age stop making sense at all in the classical way. you're 70... 30 years left. Maybe you're physically awesome, maybe you're a long long long way from it from other medical complications over your life. the small inequalities in the social security system become huge ones. Another huge push towards UBI IMHO.
There's an interesting book, the 100 Year Life by Gratton and Scott which talks about what that all might look like. Having multiple careers, happily wholesale retraining between each 20yr career, with a decade off between each one... |
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By *mmmMaybeCouple
over a year ago
West Wales |
"Things happen that Make you start to question life & the status quo. On a personal level one that recures with me is Cancer. Cancer UK have been around for 110yrs give or take, raises billions, invested billions in research, cured none, helped find drugs to help with many.
So your “Business” is charity funding, it’s a very big business & you are one of many such businesses both charities, research & pharma earning from it.
In true matrix fashion in the safe you have a blue pill which eradicates 90% of cancers overnight, wipes out the whole industry & creates population issues for the world as overnight people live to be 100 minimum or you have a red pill that alleviates the pain of those cancers keeps you all in business & doesn’t add to population issues.
Which would you release to the public?
It ain’t going to be the blue pill.
I think there will need to be a massive change in “Working” lives in the future. When you retire will be variable depending on what you do. Maybe even the retirement could be moved for instance take 10 years when you are 20/30 you get a basic card that pays for cheap worldwide travel, moderate digs & food. But then you don’t retire till 10yrs later than your time to offset it, the world gains maybe from having a generation of people who have a more worldwide outlook on life? Maybe, maybe not.
Of course none of this will happen because everyone will have to do it, not just one country & many countries control their population by education or lack of it & one thing travel always does is educate.
S
Cancer research is certainly one that made me start thinking about these things more. you've got to go of something. If not that, then what? But there they are spending so so much on "awareness" and wristbands, all just going to create more money... Obviously there is a lot of undeniable good coming out of the research, but it's not as obviously good as so many think it is.
And these things are creating their own problems, spiralling out of control. As life expectancy increases, the more variety there is in the means and abilities of an older person. Things like retirement age stop making sense at all in the classical way. you're 70... 30 years left. Maybe you're physically awesome, maybe you're a long long long way from it from other medical complications over your life. the small inequalities in the social security system become huge ones. Another huge push towards UBI IMHO.
There's an interesting book, the 100 Year Life by Gratton and Scott which talks about what that all might look like. Having multiple careers, happily wholesale retraining between each 20yr career, with a decade off between each one..."
I’ll have a search for that
S |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The I think the CandDP / fabtastic999 conversation above is a stupidly important one. And one that's really hard to discuss without potentially sounding like someone you really aren't. It was the sort of thing that's so great to see here, to balance of the "wanna fuk"s...
As science gets more and more powerful, lives get longer and more miserable in various ways for so many people. Because we *can* keep people alive longer, our moral compass says, that we therefore must. Which makes sense at a high level but just like your house vs your home, so many have no life any more, they're merely alive.
To me it feels like there must come a point where classical views on morality are going to have to be reassessed. Death has always provided an robust opposition to fight against, but when we keep winning battles, the war for some has long been lost.
And in line with the moral angle, we still also need to maintain a functional society from an economic perspective. "Cheap" deaths fade away and get replaced with "expensive" ones. Expensive to treat, and then expensive to maintain the lives afterwards as so many people fade away in homes and hospitals, surrounded by staff and drugs and machinery.
Despite being broadly liberal in my outlook, at some point there are some very uncomfortable conversations we need to have."
finaly someone understood my question, and thank you for your answer |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Op your question, if it even was one, is erroneous because the covid pandemic is not an example of natural selection at work at all.
Other posters are championing covid as natures way of tackling an ever populated world. All evidence points to a declining world population growth. The rate of increase has halved in 50 years and reduces year on year in even highly populated countries like India. There is plenty of room and wealth for us all on this Earth if we chose to live more equitably. And if we chose to take better care of our resources. Attitudes like those displayed on here like let's just sacrifice the old and the infirm and the socially disadvantaged are exactly what is wrong with the world right now. An obsession with self. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I think this thread has taken a slight detour
I don't think it has in the slightest.
The op suggested we should let the virus run its course on the old and vulnerable (a view that's been hinted at by other posters)
This is the type of policy that hitler initially advocated. "
The difference is that a man decides and ultimately for his own egotistical ideologies, whereas natural selection is just that natural without human intervention.
If we take this idea even further to an extreme, man has always interfered with natural selection by trying to extend life. Maybe a good question to explore could be, is it right to extend life? Is this it or is there more after? Ones view on this may have a big influence on ones view on the right to extend life. |
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"Op your question, if it even was one, is erroneous because the covid pandemic is not an example of natural selection at work at all.
Other posters are championing covid as natures way of tackling an ever populated world. All evidence points to a declining world population growth. The rate of increase has halved in 50 years and reduces year on year in even highly populated countries like India. There is plenty of room and wealth for us all on this Earth if we chose to live more equitably. And if we chose to take better care of our resources. Attitudes like those displayed on here like let's just sacrifice the old and the infirm and the socially disadvantaged are exactly what is wrong with the world right now. An obsession with self. "
You appear to be very wrong here. Outside of the natural selection bit.
Populations are still expected to grow significantly going forwards.
https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/world-population-prospects-2019
That said the higher populations have the opportunity to work in different ways to present, and will naturally be taking a different shape as child mortality drops.
I'm all about chatting about WTF is wrong with the world (Hey, I know *I* am not what's caused Brexit and Trump. |
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"I think this thread has taken a slight detour
I don't think it has in the slightest.
The op suggested we should let the virus run its course on the old and vulnerable (a view that's been hinted at by other posters)
This is the type of policy that hitler initially advocated.
The difference is that a man decides and ultimately for his own egotistical ideologies, whereas natural selection is just that natural without human intervention.
If we take this idea even further to an extreme, man has always interfered with natural selection by trying to extend life. Maybe a good question to explore could be, is it right to extend life? Is this it or is there more after? Ones view on this may have a big influence on ones view on the right to extend life."
Absolutely. As science breaks new ground, so morality has to follow. We used to be able to make death the enemy, one that couldn't be defeated, so we had to just accept it. Now we keep dodging it, some people are living a fate literally worse than death, which no longer feels very moral to me. |
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By *mmmMaybeCouple
over a year ago
West Wales |
"Op your question, if it even was one, is erroneous because the covid pandemic is not an example of natural selection at work at all.
Other posters are championing covid as natures way of tackling an ever populated world. All evidence points to a declining world population growth. The rate of increase has halved in 50 years and reduces year on year in even highly populated countries like India. There is plenty of room and wealth for us all on this Earth if we chose to live more equitably. And if we chose to take better care of our resources. Attitudes like those displayed on here like let's just sacrifice the old and the infirm and the socially disadvantaged are exactly what is wrong with the world right now. An obsession with self.
You appear to be very wrong here. Outside of the natural selection bit.
Populations are still expected to grow significantly going forwards.
https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/world-population-prospects-2019
That said the higher populations have the opportunity to work in different ways to present, and will naturally be taking a different shape as child mortality drops.
I'm all about chatting about WTF is wrong with the world (Hey, I know *I* am not what's caused Brexit and Trump."
I heard an interview with someone in Exploration for BP & they do not expect a major decrease in fossil fuel sales for the next thirty years.
Why not? Well that electric car needs to be charged, that wind turbine needs to be built, transported & fitted but the biggest one. The population is currently increasing by around 74million every year.
More people need more power so one will offset the other.
We could get 30% cleaner in 30yrs but all we would really be doing is treading water if we are lucky!
What’s the common denominator in your emissions? They are not your car, your house, your waste, your job.
They are you & there’s going to be roughly 74million more of you every year ad infinitum.
Perhaps someone somewhere has already done the maths & has decided to bite the bullet & try & do something about it?
S
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"I heard an interview with someone in Exploration for BP & they do not expect a major decrease in fossil fuel sales for the next thirty years.
Why not? Well that electric car needs to be charged, that wind turbine needs to be built, transported & fitted but the biggest one. The population is currently increasing by around 74million every year.
More people need more power so one will offset the other.
We could get 30% cleaner in 30yrs but all we would really be doing is treading water if we are lucky!
What’s the common denominator in your emissions? They are not your car, your house, your waste, your job.
They are you & there’s going to be roughly 74million more of you every year ad infinitum.
Perhaps someone somewhere has already done the maths & has decided to bite the bullet & try & do something about it?
S
"
Well yes, breeding is the worst thing we can do for our environment. Who cares what car you're driving or what goes into landfill if you're also creating 1, 2, 3, 4 other futures who have all those resources to use up too. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Op your question, if it even was one, is erroneous because the covid pandemic is not an example of natural selection at work at all.
Other posters are championing covid as natures way of tackling an ever populated world. All evidence points to a declining world population growth. The rate of increase has halved in 50 years and reduces year on year in even highly populated countries like India. There is plenty of room and wealth for us all on this Earth if we chose to live more equitably. And if we chose to take better care of our resources. Attitudes like those displayed on here like let's just sacrifice the old and the infirm and the socially disadvantaged are exactly what is wrong with the world right now. An obsession with self. "
This raises so many questions. Maybe nature has been intervening in population growth for quite some time and it's also nature's way of reducing population growth.
India's population is 1/6th of the world's population. It has slowed but still rising. Abortion rates are near the world's highest with real figures around 15 million per year and rising on par with China's forced abortion rate.
There is no hope for better management of world's resources with an unprecedented growth rate of materialism and greed. |
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"Op your question, if it even was one, is erroneous because the covid pandemic is not an example of natural selection at work at all.
Other posters are championing covid as natures way of tackling an ever populated world. All evidence points to a declining world population growth. The rate of increase has halved in 50 years and reduces year on year in even highly populated countries like India. There is plenty of room and wealth for us all on this Earth if we chose to live more equitably. And if we chose to take better care of our resources. Attitudes like those displayed on here like let's just sacrifice the old and the infirm and the socially disadvantaged are exactly what is wrong with the world right now. An obsession with self.
This raises so many questions. Maybe nature has been intervening in population growth for quite some time and it's also nature's way of reducing population growth.
India's population is 1/6th of the world's population. It has slowed but still rising. Abortion rates are near the world's highest with real figures around 15 million per year and rising on par with China's forced abortion rate.
There is no hope for better management of world's resources with an unprecedented growth rate of materialism and greed."
India is still growing, but they are fitting the trends we followed (albeit on a different scale) 100+ years ago. Western emissions are still far far far worse per capita. We can help them, but we can't blame them, just because they got to this part of their development later than we did.
America on the other hand, who officially leave the Paris Agreement today by coincidence...
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Op your question, if it even was one, is erroneous because the covid pandemic is not an example of natural selection at work at all.
Other posters are championing covid as natures way of tackling an ever populated world. All evidence points to a declining world population growth. The rate of increase has halved in 50 years and reduces year on year in even highly populated countries like India. There is plenty of room and wealth for us all on this Earth if we chose to live more equitably. And if we chose to take better care of our resources. Attitudes like those displayed on here like let's just sacrifice the old and the infirm and the socially disadvantaged are exactly what is wrong with the world right now. An obsession with self.
You appear to be very wrong here. Outside of the natural selection bit.
Populations are still expected to grow significantly going forwards.
https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/world-population-prospects-2019
That said the higher populations have the opportunity to work in different ways to present, and will naturally be taking a different shape as child mortality drops.
I'm all about chatting about WTF is wrong with the world (Hey, I know *I* am not what's caused Brexit and Trump."
I'm not wrong actually. I said population growth was declining. Its still growing of course, just nowhere near as fast as it had been.
Its still morally repugnant to promote covid as a handy way of knocking back the world population. |
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"I'm not wrong actually. I said population growth was declining. Its still growing of course, just nowhere near as fast as it had been.
Its still morally repugnant to promote covid as a handy way of knocking back the world population. "
Ah yes, so you did, sorry!
It's naturally awful to *promote* covid, but there are different ways to look at how it may or may not fit into the world. I hope you can see the greys in the discussion. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'm not wrong actually. I said population growth was declining. Its still growing of course, just nowhere near as fast as it had been.
Its still morally repugnant to promote covid as a handy way of knocking back the world population.
Ah yes, so you did, sorry!
It's naturally awful to *promote* covid, but there are different ways to look at how it may or may not fit into the world. I hope you can see the greys in the discussion."
I certainly can. Stay safe |
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