FabSwingers.com > Forums > Virus > Let the vulnerable look after themselves
Let the vulnerable look after themselves
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
I speak as one of them.
I have a son whose life is being ruined by regular lockdowns
I will take my chances
Let others do the same
And let our children have a chance to succeed. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We know who they are now
The old and the sick and the obese
So let the old and sick fend for themselves?"
I'm assuming he means taking personal responsibility for their own safety, assesment of risks etc
I'm doing a lot of assuming here   |
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"We know who they are now
The old and the sick and the obese
So let the old and sick fend for themselves?
I'm assuming he means taking personal responsibility for their own safety, assesment of risks etc
I'm doing a lot of assuming here "
Finish the sentence:
Assumption is the mother of.....
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"We know who they are now
The old and the sick and the obese
So let the old and sick fend for themselves?
I'm assuming he means taking personal responsibility for their own safety, assesment of risks etc
I'm doing a lot of assuming here
Finish the sentence:
Assumption is the mother of.....
"
I'd assume.... Fuck ups  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Every single vulnerable member of my family feels like this.
All of them don't want to see the economic devastation and the majority of our working age family members continue to loss jobs, opportunities, potentially the homes they worked hard to buy.
Finally the greatest cost is to the young. They are the first to be let go in jobs and have already been messed about in terms of their education.
My cousin went to university because that's what the government and the uni absolutely encouraged at the time. Now she is trapped far from home, in forced isolation trying to learn via online only in halls of residence.
At the same time a significant section of society have been whipped into a frenzy of blame that's aggressively placed on the shoulders of students and the young.
As my Dad who has cancer (his treatment was stopped during the 1st lockdown) said "If another full lockdown happens then everyone has to lockdown including the vulnerable anyway so it's 6 and 2 3s to me. I'd much rather lockdown as a vulnerable person knowing all those who want to can return to normal asap rather than have them cooped up with me whilst the country goes to rack and ruin!"
KJ |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Every single vulnerable member of my family feels like this.
All of them don't want to see the economic devastation and the majority of our working age family members continue to loss jobs, opportunities, potentially the homes they worked hard to buy.
Finally the greatest cost is to the young. They are the first to be let go in jobs and have already been messed about in terms of their education.
My cousin went to university because that's what the government and the uni absolutely encouraged at the time. Now she is trapped far from home, in forced isolation trying to learn via online only in halls of residence.
At the same time a significant section of society have been whipped into a frenzy of blame that's aggressively placed on the shoulders of students and the young.
As my Dad who has cancer (his treatment was stopped during the 1st lockdown) said "If another full lockdown happens then everyone has to lockdown including the vulnerable anyway so it's 6 and 2 3s to me. I'd much rather lockdown as a vulnerable person knowing all those who want to can return to normal asap rather than have them cooped up with me whilst the country goes to rack and ruin!"
KJ"
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The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated."
But in his proposal it would be less likely that those becoming infected would be in the "vulnerable" category due to them shielding, therefore the people becoming infected could be less likely to need admission to hospital and even less likely to need artificial ventilation. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated."
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ |
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
But in his proposal it would be less likely that those becoming infected would be in the "vulnerable" category due to them shielding, therefore the people becoming infected could be less likely to need admission to hospital and even less likely to need artificial ventilation. "
OP doesn’t mention if he intends to self shield. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ"
I'm so sorry
Brave guy your Dad sounds |
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ"
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
But in his proposal it would be less likely that those becoming infected would be in the "vulnerable" category due to them shielding, therefore the people becoming infected could be less likely to need admission to hospital and even less likely to need artificial ventilation.
OP doesn’t mention if he intends to self shield."
Apologies, I was referring to the guy quoting his Dads view in the post prior....I got side tracked from the OP after reading that   |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?"
At the very least have found a way so that cancer patients who were receiving time critical, life saving or lengthening treatment could have continued to do so, so they wouldn't now have been facing totally avoidable deaths. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
I'm so sorry
Brave guy your Dad sounds "
Thanks he certainly is x
My first child is due end of November and my Dads determined to
Meet him.
What angers him is I as the father will potentially be excluded from the birth due to local covid restrictions we are waiting to see if a home birth can be signed off. Last month my mate was allowed 2 minutes with his baby at the end of a c section and then was escorted out. His partner and the baby had complications that kept them in hospital for a week and he couldn't see them once.
KJ
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Everybody has very different circumstances.
If you look in this virus forum section, you will see many posts about the same proposal.
It's not a viable option as the country is not resourced for it. It would also overload the health services, damaging care for people needing other life saving and health treatments.
It's inhumane to throw the vulnerable to suffer. Many won't have the support they need.
Review the other posts for more details |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
I'm so sorry
Brave guy your Dad sounds
Thanks he certainly is x
My first child is due end of November and my Dads determined to
Meet him.
What angers him is I as the father will potentially be excluded from the birth due to local covid restrictions we are waiting to see if a home birth can be signed off. Last month my mate was allowed 2 minutes with his baby at the end of a c section and then was escorted out. His partner and the baby had complications that kept them in hospital for a week and he couldn't see them once.
KJ
"
Fingers crossed for your home birth
And I am sure your son will get to meet his wonderful Grandad |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
At the very least have found a way so that cancer patients who were receiving time critical, life saving or lengthening treatment could have continued to do so, so they wouldn't now have been facing totally avoidable deaths. "
Exactly sadly some people have become so scared and blinkered by covid that any other collateral damage including a range of preventable deaths caused by the attempts to control covid are acceptable to them or worse they just don't register them. Yet any covid death is not acceptable to them at all no matter the cost.
I find that stand point staggering tbh all lives should matter and be factored in.
KJ
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
At the very least have found a way so that cancer patients who were receiving time critical, life saving or lengthening treatment could have continued to do so, so they wouldn't now have been facing totally avoidable deaths.
Exactly sadly some people have become so scared and blinkered by covid that any other collateral damage including a range of preventable deaths caused by the attempts to control covid are acceptable to them or worse they just don't register them. Yet any covid death is not acceptable to them at all no matter the cost.
I find that stand point staggering tbh all lives should matter and be factored in.
KJ
"
A lot of people have become so obsessed with Covid that they fail to have any empathy or compassion for anything else anymore. It's a very sad situation all round. Where I appreciate covid is a contagious illness whereas a lot of other illnesses which people are now not getting treatment for may not be, it seems to have become almost acceptable to allow these people to die, because their illness only affects them and cannot be passed on to anyone else. The mind set is bizarre |
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Are you the OP’s son?
Either way I’m sorry to hear about your Dad’s predicament and he is brave and thoughtful in his decision not to burden the NHS and it’s good that you support him, it must have been a tough decision for you all.
I also read another of your comments regarding how the younger generations are most badly affected in terms of losing jobs, loss or reduction of income, being told to self isolate in their college dorm’s, etc. and I totally agree with you that the younger generations are having a tough time of it.
I do believe that we all ultimately need to take responsibility for our own actions, the problem is that there are consequences and I really fear for the frontline workers and NHS staff. They are under such stress and putting their own lives and physical and mental health at risk (and of those around them). It’s also totally possible that there just aren’t enough staff available to maintain the NHS should a significant number of them become ill or need to self isolate.
It’s possible that by letting the non-vulnerable return to a near normal life it would help the economy and be better for some people’s mental health but the trade off is still likely to be many more deaths amongst people who do not have a choice. If there was a guaranteed compromise that people adhered to the guidelines (but many won’t) or that those who chose to ignore every suggested safety measure agreed to waive their right to medical treatment if they contracted the virus (but many wouldn’t) then that might make a return to near normality for the,allegedly, non-vulnerable a viable solution. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Are you the OP’s son?
Either way I’m sorry to hear about your Dad’s predicament and he is brave and thoughtful in his decision not to burden the NHS and it’s good that you support him, it must have been a tough decision for you all.
I also read another of your comments regarding how the younger generations are most badly affected in terms of losing jobs, loss or reduction of income, being told to self isolate in their college dorm’s, etc. and I totally agree with you that the younger generations are having a tough time of it.
I do believe that we all ultimately need to take responsibility for our own actions, the problem is that there are consequences and I really fear for the frontline workers and NHS staff. They are under such stress and putting their own lives and physical and mental health at risk (and of those around them). It’s also totally possible that there just aren’t enough staff available to maintain the NHS should a significant number of them become ill or need to self isolate.
It’s possible that by letting the non-vulnerable return to a near normal life it would help the economy and be better for some people’s mental health but the trade off is still likely to be many more deaths amongst people who do not have a choice. If there was a guaranteed compromise that people adhered to the guidelines (but many won’t) or that those who chose to ignore every suggested safety measure agreed to waive their right to medical treatment if they contracted the virus (but many wouldn’t) then that might make a return to near normality for the,allegedly, non-vulnerable a viable solution."
I'm not related to the OP. My posts stand on their own.
All I'm saying is greater balance is needed.
Full lockdown is supposed to a last ditch measure to stop the nhs been overwhelmed it's not a cure for the virus.
My wife is NHS and many of her frontline colleagues have had covid and tested positive for antibodies.
Theres lots of good ideas out there especially at a local level.
For example the council's care team looking after my dad only allocate staff for his check ins and over night stays who have had tested positive to covid antibodies.
That's not a government policy is a local councils.
KJ
|
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"Are you the OP’s son?
Either way I’m sorry to hear about your Dad’s predicament and he is brave and thoughtful in his decision not to burden the NHS and it’s good that you support him, it must have been a tough decision for you all.
I also read another of your comments regarding how the younger generations are most badly affected in terms of losing jobs, loss or reduction of income, being told to self isolate in their college dorm’s, etc. and I totally agree with you that the younger generations are having a tough time of it.
I do believe that we all ultimately need to take responsibility for our own actions, the problem is that there are consequences and I really fear for the frontline workers and NHS staff. They are under such stress and putting their own lives and physical and mental health at risk (and of those around them). It’s also totally possible that there just aren’t enough staff available to maintain the NHS should a significant number of them become ill or need to self isolate.
It’s possible that by letting the non-vulnerable return to a near normal life it would help the economy and be better for some people’s mental health but the trade off is still likely to be many more deaths amongst people who do not have a choice. If there was a guaranteed compromise that people adhered to the guidelines (but many won’t) or that those who chose to ignore every suggested safety measure agreed to waive their right to medical treatment if they contracted the virus (but many wouldn’t) then that might make a return to near normality for the,allegedly, non-vulnerable a viable solution.
I'm not related to the OP. My posts stand on their own.
All I'm saying is greater balance is needed.
Full lockdown is supposed to a last ditch measure to stop the nhs been overwhelmed it's not a cure for the virus.
My wife is NHS and many of her frontline colleagues have had covid and tested positive for antibodies.
Theres lots of good ideas out there especially at a local level.
For example the council's care team looking after my dad only allocate staff for his check ins and over night stays who have had tested positive to covid antibodies.
That's not a government policy is a local councils.
KJ
"
Sorry it wasn’t clear if you were related to the OP and I just wanted to clarify.
I like that you and you partner have such hands on experience of the situation and that clearly your Dad has too and that has influenced your opinions and decisions. They seem sensible and considered, although I appreciate with respect to your father difficult.
I also like the approach your local council is taking toward the care of your father - it seems logical and effective, definitely an approach to be adopted elsewhere, when possible.
Why is it we get more sense and sensible debate on this site than we do in politics and amongst the politicians?
Maybe the solution is to allow the regions/cities to implement their own policies? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"We know who they are now
The old and the sick and the obese "
There’s a lot more to it than that my friend. There’s those with severe disabilities that lower immune systems, some that can’t walk or talk or even breathe without the correct equipment.
There’s those that are palliative that need looking after because they can’t do things for themselves anymore. Everyone gets to a stage in their lives where they need help, covid or no covid. Simply saying “let the vulnerable look after themselves” is an impossible task, and something which you should be ashamed of saying.
It’s up to you if you want to risk your health, but you shouldn’t speak about other people that way especially if you don’t know or understand their circumstances. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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And what about those of us who are physically vulnerable, but are really struggling mentally with shielding?
It's not a black and white issue. I need help for my mental health and can't get it, and I'm sinking and I can't cope any more, but no one gives a fuck about people like me.
There's no compassion or empathy for anyone, and it's disgusting. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Everybody has very different circumstances.
If you look in this virus forum section, you will see many posts about the same proposal.
It's not a viable option as the country is not resourced for it. It would also overload the health services, damaging care for people needing other life saving and health treatments.
It's inhumane to throw the vulnerable to suffer. Many won't have the support they need.
Review the other posts for more details "
So, for how long do you expect everyone to live under restrictions?
You're saying that even if we take away the majority of risk to the known vulnerable groups the NHS still won't be able to cope with the number of otherwise healthy who get covid.
The Government have already said that only the most vulnerable will get vaccinated at least in the first year (and probably ever, unless the vaccine turns out to be a one shot for life deal which is highly unlikely).
Do you see the problem here? In that scenario - the one which appears at present to be by far the most likely - we NEVER end the restrictions because the NHS will ALWAYS be unable to cope.
There is no end game.
THAT is the truth that isn't be understood by those wanting to continue these restrictions. In the end there is no other solution in the foreseeable future other than letting people make their own decisions.
If you have an answer to that, that doesn't involve hoping for some magic bullet of a cure, please tell me because I can't see it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
You could invoke the Italian model- if you’re not economically active there is no place for you in intensive care. Brutal but honest, I don’t necessarily agree with it but at least it was honest. |
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By *B1974Woman
over a year ago
Stanley |
"And what about those of us who are physically vulnerable, but are really struggling mentally with shielding?
It's not a black and white issue. I need help for my mental health and can't get it, and I'm sinking and I can't cope any more, but no one gives a fuck about people like me.
There's no compassion or empathy for anyone, and it's disgusting. "
There is still empathy and compassion, I see it here every day. If you need a non judgemental shoulder please message me |
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
At the very least have found a way so that cancer patients who were receiving time critical, life saving or lengthening treatment could have continued to do so, so they wouldn't now have been facing totally avoidable deaths.
Exactly sadly some people have become so scared and blinkered by covid that any other collateral damage including a range of preventable deaths caused by the attempts to control covid are acceptable to them or worse they just don't register them. Yet any covid death is not acceptable to them at all no matter the cost.
I find that stand point staggering tbh all lives should matter and be factored in.
KJ
"
Woah
Where did I say all lives dont matter?
I said the an already overloaded system has been forced to deal with its usual demands and this pandemic.
Of course its heartbreaking that people who need treatment are not getting it..but I'm not not talking about about individual cases.
As a whole..what are they meant to do? |
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"And what about those of us who are physically vulnerable, but are really struggling mentally with shielding?
It's not a black and white issue. I need help for my mental health and can't get it, and I'm sinking and I can't cope any more, but no one gives a fuck about people like me.
There's no compassion or empathy for anyone, and it's disgusting. "
The mental health services have been cut to the bone anyway.
This is just exacerbating it
|
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My Father says the same. He doesn’t want his grandkids who are all at Uni stuck in halls miserable.
He’s stuck at home waiting for the vaccine so why should their lives be on hold for him?
A commendable attitude but a bigger picture exists of the more human costs.
My Father is a wealthy man who has more resources to cope than most. It’s not that simple for some.
|
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
At the very least have found a way so that cancer patients who were receiving time critical, life saving or lengthening treatment could have continued to do so, so they wouldn't now have been facing totally avoidable deaths. "
They should have done but I meant as a whole.
Someone who works in the NHS posted a while ago that urgent cases where still being dealt with so I'm guessing it varies from area to area?
I just find the people who post opinions like the op,very rarely post solutions. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Every single vulnerable member of my family feels like this.
All of them don't want to see the economic devastation and the majority of our working age family members continue to loss jobs, opportunities, potentially the homes they worked hard to buy.
Finally the greatest cost is to the young. They are the first to be let go in jobs and have already been messed about in terms of their education.
My cousin went to university because that's what the government and the uni absolutely encouraged at the time. Now she is trapped far from home, in forced isolation trying to learn via online only in halls of residence.
At the same time a significant section of society have been whipped into a frenzy of blame that's aggressively placed on the shoulders of students and the young.
As my Dad who has cancer (his treatment was stopped during the 1st lockdown) said "If another full lockdown happens then everyone has to lockdown including the vulnerable anyway so it's 6 and 2 3s to me. I'd much rather lockdown as a vulnerable person knowing all those who want to can return to normal asap rather than have them cooped up with me whilst the country goes to rack and ruin!"
KJ"
1 thats because your dad thinks just staying home wil protect him but current measures also protect to an extent the risk for the people around him ... if we move to a model where vulnerable stay home and everyone else roams free with no restriction the chances of someone bringing it home to him increase
2. why is it acceptable for your dad and other vulnerable people to experience forced isolation but your tone suggests you think its shocking it happened to your cousin |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ"
So sorry to hear this - it must be very hard to have to stand by and be unable to help. xxxx |
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"I speak as one of them.
I have a son whose life is being ruined by regular lockdowns
I will take my chances
Let others do the same
And let our children have a chance to succeed. "
Can you be a lot more clear on what vulnerable people are... And what "looking after themselves" means.
The issue with these type of debates is the huge assumption s people make and the lack of clarity.
|
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"
It’s possible that by letting the non-vulnerable return to a near normal life it would help the economy and be better for some people’s mental health but the trade off is still likely to be many more deaths amongst people who do not have a choice. If there was a guaranteed compromise that people adhered to the guidelines (but many won’t) or that those who chose to ignore every suggested safety measure agreed to waive their right to medical treatment if they contracted the virus (but many wouldn’t) then that might make a return to near normality for the,allegedly, non-vulnerable a viable solution."
Good point
I think what many also forget is that due to current measures the numbers exposed to the virus remain relatively low and are basing their view on that.
Increased exposure would create many more millions infected and consequently significantly higher numbers of deaths and treatment for long covid amongst groups who are not currently included in the shielding (vulnerable) category. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
At the very least have found a way so that cancer patients who were receiving time critical, life saving or lengthening treatment could have continued to do so, so they wouldn't now have been facing totally avoidable deaths.
They should have done but I meant as a whole.
Someone who works in the NHS posted a while ago that urgent cases where still being dealt with so I'm guessing it varies from area to area?
I just find the people who post opinions like the op,very rarely post solutions."
If the Government and health board managers etc don't have the solutions, which they obviously don't, I don't think it's realistic to expect members of the general public to have all the answers either.   |
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I was about to ask a similar question to the above.
What does letting the vulnerable look after themselves actually look like?
Back in February I was reading about vulnerable people starving to death in their homes in China because their family members were in hospital and anyone else who could have looked after them was locked down. Is that the way we want to go? Or would it be a softer version where "the vulnerable" aren't allowed out at all but vital supplies are delivered to them ? Would they receive urgent medical care such as dialysis or would they just have medication delivered and left to it? What if a vulnerable person had a heart attack or fell and broke a bone? Where does being cared for end and looking after yourself begin for the vulnerable? |
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
At the very least have found a way so that cancer patients who were receiving time critical, life saving or lengthening treatment could have continued to do so, so they wouldn't now have been facing totally avoidable deaths.
They should have done but I meant as a whole.
Someone who works in the NHS posted a while ago that urgent cases where still being dealt with so I'm guessing it varies from area to area?
I just find the people who post opinions like the op,very rarely post solutions.
If the Government and health board managers etc don't have the solutions, which they obviously don't, I don't think it's realistic to expect members of the general public to have all the answers either. "
I don't think they do and I'm certainly not defending the gmnt.
But if you question what's going on..shouldn't you be able to posit a solution?
The NHS has been on its arse for years..I'm actually surprised it hasn't been totally overwhelmed. |
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"I was about to ask a similar question to the above.
What does letting the vulnerable look after themselves actually look like?
Back in February I was reading about vulnerable people starving to death in their homes in China because their family members were in hospital and anyone else who could have looked after them was locked down. Is that the way we want to go? Or would it be a softer version where "the vulnerable" aren't allowed out at all but vital supplies are delivered to them ? Would they receive urgent medical care such as dialysis or would they just have medication delivered and left to it? What if a vulnerable person had a heart attack or fell and broke a bone? Where does being cared for end and looking after yourself begin for the vulnerable?"
I read it as the vulnerable would be left to die? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I was about to ask a similar question to the above.
What does letting the vulnerable look after themselves actually look like?
Back in February I was reading about vulnerable people starving to death in their homes in China because their family members were in hospital and anyone else who could have looked after them was locked down. Is that the way we want to go? Or would it be a softer version where "the vulnerable" aren't allowed out at all but vital supplies are delivered to them ? Would they receive urgent medical care such as dialysis or would they just have medication delivered and left to it? What if a vulnerable person had a heart attack or fell and broke a bone? Where does being cared for end and looking after yourself begin for the vulnerable?"
Maybe similar and schemes that were available when people were shielding? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
At the very least have found a way so that cancer patients who were receiving time critical, life saving or lengthening treatment could have continued to do so, so they wouldn't now have been facing totally avoidable deaths.
They should have done but I meant as a whole.
Someone who works in the NHS posted a while ago that urgent cases where still being dealt with so I'm guessing it varies from area to area?
I just find the people who post opinions like the op,very rarely post solutions.
If the Government and health board managers etc don't have the solutions, which they obviously don't, I don't think it's realistic to expect members of the general public to have all the answers either.
I don't think they do and I'm certainly not defending the gmnt.
But if you question what's going on..shouldn't you be able to posit a solution?
The NHS has been on its arse for years..I'm actually surprised it hasn't been totally overwhelmed."
The problem, is outside of who people choose to vote for, we have no influence over what happens to the health service, regardless of what our ideas may be. We have no control over government spending, service and staffing cuts etc. |
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"I was about to ask a similar question to the above.
What does letting the vulnerable look after themselves actually look like?
Back in February I was reading about vulnerable people starving to death in their homes in China because their family members were in hospital and anyone else who could have looked after them was locked down. Is that the way we want to go? Or would it be a softer version where "the vulnerable" aren't allowed out at all but vital supplies are delivered to them ? Would they receive urgent medical care such as dialysis or would they just have medication delivered and left to it? What if a vulnerable person had a heart attack or fell and broke a bone? Where does being cared for end and looking after yourself begin for the vulnerable?
I read it as the vulnerable would be left to die?"
I'm seeing more and more people who seem to think that's what it means, certainly. Judging by the number of deaths under horrible circumstances society is prepared to accept in war time I can see that a lot of people might agree to this strategy if it was proposed directly. Although because it will be a neighbour or someone in the next street dying in agony from a broken hip alone on the floor of their bedroom they might feel differently. Who knows.
My opinion is that if you're going to accept that certain members of society are expendable for the greater good you'd better have a strong stomach or be very good at turning a blind eye. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I was about to ask a similar question to the above.
What does letting the vulnerable look after themselves actually look like?
Back in February I was reading about vulnerable people starving to death in their homes in China because their family members were in hospital and anyone else who could have looked after them was locked down. Is that the way we want to go? Or would it be a softer version where "the vulnerable" aren't allowed out at all but vital supplies are delivered to them ? Would they receive urgent medical care such as dialysis or would they just have medication delivered and left to it? What if a vulnerable person had a heart attack or fell and broke a bone? Where does being cared for end and looking after yourself begin for the vulnerable?"
I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting a reduction in services for those most vulnerable to covid.
What most, including me, are suggesting is that we stop focussing entirely on suppressing covid at all costs and more on living with covid.
Every vulnerable person and their family will know what level of risk they are prepared to take based on their personal circumstances. That equation is very nuanced - a person with a serious but cureable condition will probably be far more risk averse than a person with terminal cancer who was months left to live. It's not something we can or should try to legislate or control.
We do need to provide the support services so that those who feel it's right for them to completely shield can. We also need to accept that some of those who medically should shield won't for their own reasons and still others will implement their own middle ground.
These are choices for families. we need to provide the information and resources so thise families can make those choices in an informed way and support the choices they make (for example, on demand asymptomatic testing so people can be sure of their status before visiting anat risk famiky member or attending a large family event).
We can't run society based on the least risk to the most vulnerable indefinately, it simply won't work.
There has to be compromise, on both sides. |
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
At the very least have found a way so that cancer patients who were receiving time critical, life saving or lengthening treatment could have continued to do so, so they wouldn't now have been facing totally avoidable deaths.
They should have done but I meant as a whole.
Someone who works in the NHS posted a while ago that urgent cases where still being dealt with so I'm guessing it varies from area to area?
I just find the people who post opinions like the op,very rarely post solutions.
If the Government and health board managers etc don't have the solutions, which they obviously don't, I don't think it's realistic to expect members of the general public to have all the answers either.
I don't think they do and I'm certainly not defending the gmnt.
But if you question what's going on..shouldn't you be able to posit a solution?
The NHS has been on its arse for years..I'm actually surprised it hasn't been totally overwhelmed.
The problem, is outside of who people choose to vote for, we have no influence over what happens to the health service, regardless of what our ideas may be. We have no control over government spending, service and staffing cuts etc."
Well we do every 5 years. |
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"I was about to ask a similar question to the above.
What does letting the vulnerable look after themselves actually look like?
Back in February I was reading about vulnerable people starving to death in their homes in China because their family members were in hospital and anyone else who could have looked after them was locked down. Is that the way we want to go? Or would it be a softer version where "the vulnerable" aren't allowed out at all but vital supplies are delivered to them ? Would they receive urgent medical care such as dialysis or would they just have medication delivered and left to it? What if a vulnerable person had a heart attack or fell and broke a bone? Where does being cared for end and looking after yourself begin for the vulnerable?
I read it as the vulnerable would be left to die?
I'm seeing more and more people who seem to think that's what it means, certainly. Judging by the number of deaths under horrible circumstances society is prepared to accept in war time I can see that a lot of people might agree to this strategy if it was proposed directly. Although because it will be a neighbour or someone in the next street dying in agony from a broken hip alone on the floor of their bedroom they might feel differently. Who knows.
My opinion is that if you're going to accept that certain members of society are expendable for the greater good you'd better have a strong stomach or be very good at turning a blind eye."
Or that it's unlikely to affect you personally? |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
At the very least have found a way so that cancer patients who were receiving time critical, life saving or lengthening treatment could have continued to do so, so they wouldn't now have been facing totally avoidable deaths.
They should have done but I meant as a whole.
Someone who works in the NHS posted a while ago that urgent cases where still being dealt with so I'm guessing it varies from area to area?
I just find the people who post opinions like the op,very rarely post solutions.
If the Government and health board managers etc don't have the solutions, which they obviously don't, I don't think it's realistic to expect members of the general public to have all the answers either.
I don't think they do and I'm certainly not defending the gmnt.
But if you question what's going on..shouldn't you be able to posit a solution?
The NHS has been on its arse for years..I'm actually surprised it hasn't been totally overwhelmed.
The problem, is outside of who people choose to vote for, we have no influence over what happens to the health service, regardless of what our ideas may be. We have no control over government spending, service and staffing cuts etc.
Well we do every 5 years."
That's what I meant by "outside of who people choose to vote for" |
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"I speak as one of them.
I have a son whose life is being ruined by regular lockdowns
I will take my chances
Let others do the same
And let our children have a chance to succeed. "
Another example of why we will have more draconian restrictions.
Its NOT about YOU
Otherwise we would let suicide bombers kill themselves and not care. |
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
At the very least have found a way so that cancer patients who were receiving time critical, life saving or lengthening treatment could have continued to do so, so they wouldn't now have been facing totally avoidable deaths.
They should have done but I meant as a whole.
Someone who works in the NHS posted a while ago that urgent cases where still being dealt with so I'm guessing it varies from area to area?
I just find the people who post opinions like the op,very rarely post solutions.
If the Government and health board managers etc don't have the solutions, which they obviously don't, I don't think it's realistic to expect members of the general public to have all the answers either.
I don't think they do and I'm certainly not defending the gmnt.
But if you question what's going on..shouldn't you be able to posit a solution?
The NHS has been on its arse for years..I'm actually surprised it hasn't been totally overwhelmed.
The problem, is outside of who people choose to vote for, we have no influence over what happens to the health service, regardless of what our ideas may be. We have no control over government spending, service and staffing cuts etc.
Well we do every 5 years.
That's what I meant by "outside of who people choose to vote for" "
I'm trying to not make it too political.
I've seen people on here argue that we should move to a private based system.
I personally think the NHS is one of the few things we should be proud of in this country.I think it's done an amazing job in trying circumstances and to repeat myself.. I'm not sure how else it could have coped.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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This is such a dangerous view, when society becomes survival of the fittest. Just because someone is older or has an underlying conditions does not make their life less worthy.
In the words of Gandhi 'the true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members' |
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"I was about to ask a similar question to the above.
What does letting the vulnerable look after themselves actually look like?
Back in February I was reading about vulnerable people starving to death in their homes in China because their family members were in hospital and anyone else who could have looked after them was locked down. Is that the way we want to go? Or would it be a softer version where "the vulnerable" aren't allowed out at all but vital supplies are delivered to them ? Would they receive urgent medical care such as dialysis or would they just have medication delivered and left to it? What if a vulnerable person had a heart attack or fell and broke a bone? Where does being cared for end and looking after yourself begin for the vulnerable?
I read it as the vulnerable would be left to die?
I'm seeing more and more people who seem to think that's what it means, certainly. Judging by the number of deaths under horrible circumstances society is prepared to accept in war time I can see that a lot of people might agree to this strategy if it was proposed directly. Although because it will be a neighbour or someone in the next street dying in agony from a broken hip alone on the floor of their bedroom they might feel differently. Who knows.
My opinion is that if you're going to accept that certain members of society are expendable for the greater good you'd better have a strong stomach or be very good at turning a blind eye.
Or that it's unlikely to affect you personally?"
Yep.
I suspect that if (and I think it's increasingly likely) a version of the vulnerable fending for themselves is introduced, there will be lots of us who step in to caring roles. I have elderly parents and other close relatives who I wouldn't see suffer and I wouldn't knowingly leave a friend of neighbour without help. I confidently believe that most people feel the same way. |
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"This is such a dangerous view, when society becomes survival of the fittest. Just because someone is older or has an underlying conditions does not make their life less worthy.
In the words of Gandhi 'the true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members'"
Spot on. |
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"I was about to ask a similar question to the above.
What does letting the vulnerable look after themselves actually look like?
Back in February I was reading about vulnerable people starving to death in their homes in China because their family members were in hospital and anyone else who could have looked after them was locked down. Is that the way we want to go? Or would it be a softer version where "the vulnerable" aren't allowed out at all but vital supplies are delivered to them ? Would they receive urgent medical care such as dialysis or would they just have medication delivered and left to it? What if a vulnerable person had a heart attack or fell and broke a bone? Where does being cared for end and looking after yourself begin for the vulnerable?
I read it as the vulnerable would be left to die?
I'm seeing more and more people who seem to think that's what it means, certainly. Judging by the number of deaths under horrible circumstances society is prepared to accept in war time I can see that a lot of people might agree to this strategy if it was proposed directly. Although because it will be a neighbour or someone in the next street dying in agony from a broken hip alone on the floor of their bedroom they might feel differently. Who knows.
My opinion is that if you're going to accept that certain members of society are expendable for the greater good you'd better have a strong stomach or be very good at turning a blind eye.
Or that it's unlikely to affect you personally?
Yep.
I suspect that if (and I think it's increasingly likely) a version of the vulnerable fending for themselves is introduced, there will be lots of us who step in to caring roles. I have elderly parents and other close relatives who I wouldn't see suffer and I wouldn't knowingly leave a friend of neighbour without help. I confidently believe that most people feel the same way."
You could argue they have already done it with the care homes. |
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"This is such a dangerous view, when society becomes survival of the fittest. Just because someone is older or has an underlying conditions does not make their life less worthy.
In the words of Gandhi 'the true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members'"
Oh absolutely!!! |
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"This is such a dangerous view, when society becomes survival of the fittest. Just because someone is older or has an underlying conditions does not make their life less worthy.
In the words of Gandhi 'the true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members'"
If anyone watched the three part series on Harold Shipman, that's the conclusion of the programme makers. That he got away with it for so long partly due to the lives of elderly/vulnerable people being less in the forefront of people's minds and seeing them as dispensible. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This is such a dangerous view, when society becomes survival of the fittest. Just because someone is older or has an underlying conditions does not make their life less worthy.
"
I haven't seen anybody suggest that.
Responsibility needs to be shared. Those most at risk need to take responsibility for protecting themselves from covid. The rest of society needs to take responsibility for helping them do that by observing their wishes, treating them fairly, not deliberately putting them at risk and acting responsibly.
What can't be done and shouldn't be done is for society to focus all efforts on protecting one group with no regard to the cost to everyone else. |
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"I was about to ask a similar question to the above.
What does letting the vulnerable look after themselves actually look like?
Back in February I was reading about vulnerable people starving to death in their homes in China because their family members were in hospital and anyone else who could have looked after them was locked down. Is that the way we want to go? Or would it be a softer version where "the vulnerable" aren't allowed out at all but vital supplies are delivered to them ? Would they receive urgent medical care such as dialysis or would they just have medication delivered and left to it? What if a vulnerable person had a heart attack or fell and broke a bone? Where does being cared for end and looking after yourself begin for the vulnerable?
I read it as the vulnerable would be left to die?
I'm seeing more and more people who seem to think that's what it means, certainly. Judging by the number of deaths under horrible circumstances society is prepared to accept in war time I can see that a lot of people might agree to this strategy if it was proposed directly. Although because it will be a neighbour or someone in the next street dying in agony from a broken hip alone on the floor of their bedroom they might feel differently. Who knows.
My opinion is that if you're going to accept that certain members of society are expendable for the greater good you'd better have a strong stomach or be very good at turning a blind eye.
Or that it's unlikely to affect you personally?
Yep.
I suspect that if (and I think it's increasingly likely) a version of the vulnerable fending for themselves is introduced, there will be lots of us who step in to caring roles. I have elderly parents and other close relatives who I wouldn't see suffer and I wouldn't knowingly leave a friend of neighbour without help. I confidently believe that most people feel the same way.
You could argue they have already done it with the care homes."
Yes, to an extent they have. |
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"I was about to ask a similar question to the above.
What does letting the vulnerable look after themselves actually look like?
Back in February I was reading about vulnerable people starving to death in their homes in China because their family members were in hospital and anyone else who could have looked after them was locked down. Is that the way we want to go? Or would it be a softer version where "the vulnerable" aren't allowed out at all but vital supplies are delivered to them ? Would they receive urgent medical care such as dialysis or would they just have medication delivered and left to it? What if a vulnerable person had a heart attack or fell and broke a bone? Where does being cared for end and looking after yourself begin for the vulnerable?
I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting a reduction in services for those most vulnerable to covid.
What most, including me, are suggesting is that we stop focussing entirely on suppressing covid at all costs and more on living with covid.
Every vulnerable person and their family will know what level of risk they are prepared to take based on their personal circumstances. That equation is very nuanced - a person with a serious but cureable condition will probably be far more risk averse than a person with terminal cancer who was months left to live. It's not something we can or should try to legislate or control.
We do need to provide the support services so that those who feel it's right for them to completely shield can. We also need to accept that some of those who medically should shield won't for their own reasons and still others will implement their own middle ground.
These are choices for families. we need to provide the information and resources so thise families can make those choices in an informed way and support the choices they make (for example, on demand asymptomatic testing so people can be sure of their status before visiting anat risk famiky member or attending a large family event).
We can't run society based on the least risk to the most vulnerable indefinately, it simply won't work.
There has to be compromise, on both sides."
As I said it’s not that simple- the educators abs healthcare workers on the frontline are made up of vulnerable people. What happens if they think - sod it and resign? What happens to hospitals and schools if they can’t be staffed? What if those people took only the risks that they feel is appropriate to keep themselves healthy. It’s all very easy to suggest these things if you’re a work from home/ furloughed person who has the choice who and when they mix with others. For some of us the choice is made for us and we have no control. |
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"This is such a dangerous view, when society becomes survival of the fittest. Just because someone is older or has an underlying conditions does not make their life less worthy.
I haven't seen anybody suggest that.
Responsibility needs to be shared. Those most at risk need to take responsibility for protecting themselves from covid. The rest of society needs to take responsibility for helping them do that by observing their wishes, treating them fairly, not deliberately putting them at risk and acting responsibly.
What can't be done and shouldn't be done is for society to focus all efforts on protecting one group with no regard to the cost to everyone else."
No one has come out actually suggested but the inference is clear (look at the average age thread)
What you are suggesting is actually happening. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And what about those of us who are physically vulnerable, but are really struggling mentally with shielding?
It's not a black and white issue. I need help for my mental health and can't get it, and I'm sinking and I can't cope any more, but no one gives a fuck about people like me.
There's no compassion or empathy for anyone, and it's disgusting. "
Hi
What this tells me is the last 6 months has definitely not been working for you.
Like those who have missed out on cancer treatment you have likely had zero or very little mental health support since covid hit.
I work with people in a similar situation and all of the funded services like Mind and similar are only working from home and supporting people via zoom.
This is at at time when more people with need support with mental health issues not less.
In fact the only face to face mental health support we have found that is seeing people is run by a local group of qualified volunteers who are mortified with how almost all mental health support disappeared once covid struck.
People ask for ideas the first thing I'd do is set up a new benefit for the vunerable to ensure they had zero financial worries.
I'd then create face to face mental health support teams in each local authority who had all tested positive to antibodies who would then provide dedicated in the home visits, safe passage days out and dedicated 121 face to face support. They would also be on hand to respond to emergencies.
KJ
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By *pices69Couple
over a year ago
Gravesend |
How a society should be judged - is how it treats its most vulnerable. So true.
How did they fare during full lockdown? They weren’t all Capt Toms. The ones i know, suffered terribly... Isolated; alone; limited support. Withdrawal of medical support, equipment, and treatment and drugs...
i’m not sure Lockdown isn’t an answer... It punishes the vulnerable as well as removes the rights of those not impacted at all.
The vaccine - years away. When you listen to the people working on it. Worrying that they arguing about the side effects liability.
Worrying that ‘long covid’ seems to be affecting young people more and we don’t understand 1% of what it is... And for that reason alone, we need lockdowns... If it wasn’t for that element, i’d say protect the 50+, make arrangements, recruit young people to support the vulnerable, etc.. But young people may not be dying, but they are getting this thing and it is affecting them...
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It seems that one good outcome of Covid is this sudden caring about the vulnerable. When you look at the U.K. death figures historically it doesn't seem we've cared much at all.
UK Deaths Per Year:
2000 = 610,000
2003 = 612,000
2011 = 552,000
2015 = 603,000
2018 = 616,000
2020 (until Sept 25th/Week 39) = 454,000
Add first 13 weeks of 2020 on again to predict whole year and total for 2020 is projected to be = 603,000. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It seems that one good outcome of Covid is this sudden caring about the vulnerable. When you look at the U.K. death figures historically it doesn't seem we've cared much at all.
UK Deaths Per Year:
2000 = 610,000
2003 = 612,000
2011 = 552,000
2015 = 603,000
2018 = 616,000
2020 (until Sept 25th/Week 39) = 454,000
Add first 13 weeks of 2020 on again to predict whole year and total for 2020 is projected to be = 603,000."
one thing its highlighted for me is plenty want to talk about quality of life that the young and fit are being restricted to because of covid , but when it comes to talking about the vulnerable only life or death seems to matter and to hell with their quality of life |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And what about those of us who are physically vulnerable, but are really struggling mentally with shielding?
It's not a black and white issue. I need help for my mental health and can't get it, and I'm sinking and I can't cope any more, but no one gives a fuck about people like me.
There's no compassion or empathy for anyone, and it's disgusting.
Hi
What this tells me is the last 6 months has definitely not been working for you.
Like those who have missed out on cancer treatment you have likely had zero or very little mental health support since covid hit.
I work with people in a similar situation and all of the funded services like Mind and similar are only working from home and supporting people via zoom.
This is at at time when more people with need support with mental health issues not less.
In fact the only face to face mental health support we have found that is seeing people is run by a local group of qualified volunteers who are mortified with how almost all mental health support disappeared once covid struck.
People ask for ideas the first thing I'd do is set up a new benefit for the vunerable to ensure they had zero financial worries.
I'd then create face to face mental health support teams in each local authority who had all tested positive to antibodies who would then provide dedicated in the home visits, safe passage days out and dedicated 121 face to face support. They would also be on hand to respond to emergencies.
KJ
"
Mental health services are still able to meet in groups of up to 15 under Government guidance. The reality is that NHS mental health services are woefully under resourced and many of the staff, such as nurses, have been seconded elsewhere to deal with COVID, not because of the lockdown or restrictions. I work in MH within the charity sector and we have been left gatekeeping so many people. We have provided support and therapy over zoom and are restarting face to face but get none of the resources or safety of statutory services (such as access to testing, PPE, occupational health etc)
I hope that one of the positives of the pandemic will be a rethink of mental health provision and increasing services, I won't hold my breath though! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And what about those of us who are physically vulnerable, but are really struggling mentally with shielding?
It's not a black and white issue. I need help for my mental health and can't get it, and I'm sinking and I can't cope any more, but no one gives a fuck about people like me.
There's no compassion or empathy for anyone, and it's disgusting.
Hi
What this tells me is the last 6 months has definitely not been working for you.
Like those who have missed out on cancer treatment you have likely had zero or very little mental health support since covid hit.
I work with people in a similar situation and all of the funded services like Mind and similar are only working from home and supporting people via zoom.
This is at at time when more people with need support with mental health issues not less.
In fact the only face to face mental health support we have found that is seeing people is run by a local group of qualified volunteers who are mortified with how almost all mental health support disappeared once covid struck.
People ask for ideas the first thing I'd do is set up a new benefit for the vunerable to ensure they had zero financial worries.
I'd then create face to face mental health support teams in each local authority who had all tested positive to antibodies who would then provide dedicated in the home visits, safe passage days out and dedicated 121 face to face support. They would also be on hand to respond to emergencies.
KJ
Mental health services are still able to meet in groups of up to 15 under Government guidance. The reality is that NHS mental health services are woefully under resourced and many of the staff, such as nurses, have been seconded elsewhere to deal with COVID, not because of the lockdown or restrictions. I work in MH within the charity sector and we have been left gatekeeping so many people. We have provided support and therapy over zoom and are restarting face to face but get none of the resources or safety of statutory services (such as access to testing, PPE, occupational health etc)
I hope that one of the positives of the pandemic will be a rethink of mental health provision and increasing services, I won't hold my breath though! "
I feel for you I really do.
Thing is the bigger mental health services who do have access to testing, ppe etc are all working from home until Jan 21 now as staff safety trumps all. Plus they ain't trying to survive contract to contract. With millions in reserves they have a luxury the other providers don't.
It's the non for profit, charity / third sector mental health services (in our area) who are the ones trying to innovate and provide some level of service. Lead by people who have had enough of the all damage to mental health and are desperate to help.
Theres a whole tsunami built up and very few left on the front line to tackle it.
I wish you all the best.
KJ |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated."
I agree the young may suffer for a short time and lose jobs and students be put behind for a year but surely we want them to have a good future they have time on there side,the short term price is not much to ask for.
If they do not exept his then to hell will the stipid bastards lock them up that is all they deserve.All life is important.
All the good times they are having now is down to are hard work |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.I agree the young may suffer for a short time and lose jobs and students be put behind for a year but surely we want them to have a good future they have time on there side,the short term price is not much to ask for.
If they do not exept his then to hell will the stipid bastards lock them up that is all they deserve.All life is important.
All the good times they are having now is down to are hard work"
Exactly this |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.I agree the young may suffer for a short time and lose jobs and students be put behind for a year but surely we want them to have a good future they have time on there side,the short term price is not much to ask for.
If they do not exept his then to hell will the stipid bastards lock them up that is all they deserve.All life is important.
All the good times they are having now is down to are hard work"
There's so much ironic comedy material in this post I wouldn't know where to begin. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ"
I dont know how to put a heart up on here but that is how I feel. Its a cery moving statement and so many would agree. No one should be made to die alone...whatever the situation.  |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.I agree the young may suffer for a short time and lose jobs and students be put behind for a year but surely we want them to have a good future they have time on there side,the short term price is not much to ask for.
If they do not exept his then to hell will the stipid bastards lock them up that is all they deserve.All life is important.
All the good times they are having now is down to are hard work
There's so much ironic comedy material in this post I wouldn't know where to begin."
When covid is over the comics will have lots of material but time to laugh is not now |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
I dont know how to put a heart up on here but that is how I feel. Its a cery moving statement and so many would agree. No one should be made to die alone...whatever the situation. "
The heart is love in brackets.
Like this |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
I dont know how to put a heart up on here but that is how I feel. Its a cery moving statement and so many would agree. No one should be made to die alone...whatever the situation.
The heart is love in brackets.
Like this "
Thank you for that |
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?"
THE NHS.
OUR NHS
THE BRITISH NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE.
The service set up and organised to rival any other health care in the entire civilised world.
Boasted about in every government summit worldwide on a regular basis.
The service that takes money from every working (and non working) adult in the entire country to ensure it stays the ultimate in health care that the rest of the world can only sit and envy.
Incapable of dealing with more than 1 major issue at any time.
If our 21st century NHS is so dominant and admired across the globe it should absolutely be fully capable of dealing with Cancer patients AND covid-19 without compromising the lives of either. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I speak as one of them.
I have a son whose life is being ruined by regular lockdowns
I will take my chances
Let others do the same
And let our children have a chance to succeed. "
You’re entitled to your opinion and entitled to do as you please, but I won’t be letting my 92 year old Nan look after herself thank you.
Nor will I leave my parents or other family members to do it on their own.
I’d rather help and protect. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Why is it that people refer to it as ‘shielding the vulnerable’ when what they mean is locking them away because they are an inconvenience?
The measure of a civilised society is how it treats its most vulnerable and frankly I’m glad the forums on here aren’t representative of the country as a whole. When did the lives of millions of people cease to mean so little in comparison to those who want to carry on as if there’s nothing wrong? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
People can and will talk about this over and over again.
But the government will do what they want to do at the end of the day.
Personally as a young person I’d rather protect the vulnerable than have my “social life” back too early. I don’t like all the restrictions as it’s not normal and it genuinely feels strange, but there’s nothing I can do, so I’ll go along with it until the government states otherwise.
The fear I had at the start of COVID before lockdown if my parents, my Nan or older relatives catching the virus affected my mental health far more than the restrictions have. But I know not every young person is like me & many have suffered through lockdown and took their lives.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
THE NHS.
OUR NHS
THE BRITISH NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE.
The service set up and organised to rival any other health care in the entire civilised world.
Boasted about in every government summit worldwide on a regular basis.
The service that takes money from every working (and non working) adult in the entire country to ensure it stays the ultimate in health care that the rest of the world can only sit and envy.
Incapable of dealing with more than 1 major issue at any time.
If our 21st century NHS is so dominant and admired across the globe it should absolutely be fully capable of dealing with Cancer patients AND covid-19 without compromising the lives of either. "
The NHS is the most efficient health system in the world despite being underfunded for the last decade. What you are seeing now is the legacy of underfunding and government complacency. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"People can and will talk about this over and over again.
But the government will do what they want to do at the end of the day.
Personally as a young person I’d rather protect the vulnerable than have my “social life” back too early. I don’t like all the restrictions as it’s not normal and it genuinely feels strange, but there’s nothing I can do, so I’ll go along with it until the government states otherwise.
The fear I had at the start of COVID before lockdown if my parents, my Nan or older relatives catching the virus affected my mental health far more than the restrictions have. But I know not every young person is like me & many have suffered through lockdown and took their lives.
"
Everybody has suffered.
Anybody that hasn't noticed the difference to their normal lives haven't been doing this right and are probably part of the problem.
Like you said we have to protect the vulnerable and I've been totally shocked at the number people that seem to think that anybody who is old or has a preexisting condition somehow doesn't have a life of any value.
Of course it's affected the mental health of the young but it's affected the mental health of so many but I just don't know what the alternative is.
We have to stick to restrictions and just cope as best we can it's all we got for now. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I speak as one of them.
I have a son whose life is being ruined by regular lockdowns
I will take my chances
Let others do the same
And let our children have a chance to succeed. "
One thing most using this argument and the herd thinking is the long term after effects that may return to hit many later because of the way this virus attacks certain vital organs.
Our health system could have a much bigger crisis in years to come as a direct result.
This isn't speculative, but something most medical leaders are concerned about.
So with that knowledge would you really want your child to get out there, mix it and catch it with your consent and encouragement?
I wouldn't tbh. Even for another year of restrictions I wouldn't ask or encourage anyone to do that. |
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By *ldaCouple
over a year ago
sutton Coldfield |
"It seems that one good outcome of Covid is this sudden caring about the vulnerable. When you look at the U.K. death figures historically it doesn't seem we've cared much at all.
UK Deaths Per Year:
2000 = 610,000
2003 = 612,000
2011 = 552,000
2015 = 603,000
2018 = 616,000
2020 (until Sept 25th/Week 39) = 454,000
Add first 13 weeks of 2020 on again to predict whole year and total for 2020 is projected to be = 603,000."
Are you actually suggesting that people should not ever die? It is a fact of life that people will, and the older you are, the more likely it is |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I speak as one of them.
I have a son whose life is being ruined by regular lockdowns
I will take my chances
Let others do the same
And let our children have a chance to succeed. "
Well said! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"People can and will talk about this over and over again.
But the government will do what they want to do at the end of the day.
Personally as a young person I’d rather protect the vulnerable than have my “social life” back too early. I don’t like all the restrictions as it’s not normal and it genuinely feels strange, but there’s nothing I can do, so I’ll go along with it until the government states otherwise.
The fear I had at the start of COVID before lockdown if my parents, my Nan or older relatives catching the virus affected my mental health far more than the restrictions have. But I know not every young person is like me & many have suffered through lockdown and took their lives.
Everybody has suffered.
Anybody that hasn't noticed the difference to their normal lives haven't been doing this right and are probably part of the problem.
Like you said we have to protect the vulnerable and I've been totally shocked at the number people that seem to think that anybody who is old or has a preexisting condition somehow doesn't have a life of any value.
Of course it's affected the mental health of the young but it's affected the mental health of so many but I just don't know what the alternative is.
We have to stick to restrictions and just cope as best we can it's all we got for now."
Completely agree.
Some just don't complain about it, but it doesn't mean they haven't or aren't struggling. They see that's it isn't the end and tomorrow is another day. Their focus is different.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
OP do you ever think of your children or grandchildren if you have any?
And how they might feel if say you were to die of COVID and how it may affect their mental health?
It’s all well and good saying let our children have a chance to succeed, but how many young people feel like myself and would rather have all the rubbish restrictions than a dead parent or grandparent? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It seems that one good outcome of Covid is this sudden caring about the vulnerable. When you look at the U.K. death figures historically it doesn't seem we've cared much at all.
UK Deaths Per Year:
2000 = 610,000
2003 = 612,000
2011 = 552,000
2015 = 603,000
2018 = 616,000
2020 (until Sept 25th/Week 39) = 454,000
Add first 13 weeks of 2020 on again to predict whole year and total for 2020 is projected to be = 603,000.
Are you actually suggesting that people should not ever die? It is a fact of life that people will, and the older you are, the more likely it is"
No I’m not. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"OP do you ever think of your children or grandchildren if you have any?
And how they might feel if say you were to die of COVID and how it may affect their mental health?
It’s all well and good saying let our children have a chance to succeed, but how many young people feel like myself and would rather have all the rubbish restrictions than a dead parent or grandparent? "
I couldn't agree more.
Me and my sister in the the extremely valuable group and we are young(ish)
Her children who are 17 and 18 feel exactly the same way you do.
They have suffered through lockdown but they have said many times its worth it rather than loosing one or both of us. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I read somewhere that the country will grind to a halt quicker if we, let people look after themselves.
As each person who get a positive test, will need everyone they work for to isolate.
That includes offices, factories, etc. |
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"I speak as one of them.
I have a son whose life is being ruined by regular lockdowns
I will take my chances
Let others do the same
And let our children have a chance to succeed. "
The young can be vulnerable too and lets get serious his life is not being ruined thats melodramatic at best or self centred at the other end of the spectrum.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I very much doubt someone lifer is being ruined because they can't go out.  "
i assume they mean because they lost their job
but still agree that life ruined is a bit melodramatic
i was unemployed and applied for over 200 before even getting a 3 month temp position after the 2008 crash ... i am now qualified in a career i hadn’t even considered back then ... things dont stay the same for ever and you bounce back, particularly so when you are young |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?"
Use the hospitals the nightingale hospitals that was built last time for all hospitalized covid patient keep them away from the hospitals where people are getting other people need treatment...we had the sense to do this hundred of years ago with contagious disease churches and other buildings was used |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
Use the hospitals the nightingale hospitals that was built last time for all hospitalized covid patient keep them away from the hospitals where people are getting other people need treatment...we had the sense to do this hundred of years ago with contagious disease churches and other buildings was used "
We don’t have the staff for both. Healthcare is incredibly specialised and it’s not as simple as moving people from one building to another. |
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By *sGivesWoodWoman
over a year ago
ST. AUSTELL, CORNWALL |
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
I'm so sorry
Brave guy your Dad sounds "
Seconded. |
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
Use the hospitals the nightingale hospitals that was built last time for all hospitalized covid patient keep them away from the hospitals where people are getting other people need treatment...we had the sense to do this hundred of years ago with contagious disease churches and other buildings was used "
We can convert buildings into make shift hospitals. Can you explain how we can convert available people into health care professionals? |
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
Use the hospitals the nightingale hospitals that was built last time for all hospitalized covid patient keep them away from the hospitals where people are getting other people need treatment...we had the sense to do this hundred of years ago with contagious disease churches and other buildings was used
We can convert buildings into make shift hospitals. Can you explain how we can convert available people into health care professionals? "
He has plenty of people in the army he can have trained for the necessary skills needed for the nightingales |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
Use the hospitals the nightingale hospitals that was built last time for all hospitalized covid patient keep them away from the hospitals where people are getting other people need treatment...we had the sense to do this hundred of years ago with contagious disease churches and other buildings was used
We can convert buildings into make shift hospitals. Can you explain how we can convert available people into health care professionals? "
Even if hospitals are not running at full compatibility and staff are split between the two it's better than no hospital at all you can not say every doctor and nurse what ever there speciality had to be used in the last wave and I'm sure there are trainees that can be used with in the whole system where they can do safely for patients and volunteers for non medical roles within the hospitals |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
Use the hospitals the nightingale hospitals that was built last time for all hospitalized covid patient keep them away from the hospitals where people are getting other people need treatment...we had the sense to do this hundred of years ago with contagious disease churches and other buildings was used
We can convert buildings into make shift hospitals. Can you explain how we can convert available people into health care professionals?
Even if hospitals are not running at full compatibility and staff are split between the two it's better than no hospital at all you can not say every doctor and nurse what ever there speciality had to be used in the last wave and I'm sure there are trainees that can be used with in the whole system where they can do safely for patients and volunteers for non medical roles within the hospitals "
The NHS is currently understaffed by over 100,000 people. 44,000 of those are nursing vacancies. We do not have enough people to staff the NHS without COVID-19 in its current hospitals. Splitting staff would cause potentially catastrophic shortages in both places and result in lower capacity than we currently have.
I realise it’s human nature to seek a simple solution for complex problems but it’s really not going to help in this case. |
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"
Every single vulnerable member of my family feels like this.
All of them don't want to see the economic devastation and the majority of our working age family members continue to loss jobs, opportunities, potentially the homes they worked hard to buy.
Finally the greatest cost is to the young. They are the first to be let go in jobs and have already been messed about in terms of their education.
My cousin went to university because that's what the government and the uni absolutely encouraged at the time. Now she is trapped far from home, in forced isolation trying to learn via online only in halls of residence.
At the same time a significant section of society have been whipped into a frenzy of blame that's aggressively placed on the shoulders of students and the young.
As my Dad who has cancer (his treatment was stopped during the 1st lockdown) said "If another full lockdown happens then everyone has to lockdown including the vulnerable anyway so it's 6 and 2 3s to me. I'd much rather lockdown as a vulnerable person knowing all those who want to can return to normal asap rather than have them cooped up with me whilst the country goes to rack and ruin!"
KJ"
You say all those that want can return to normal but normal will now be a new normal any way |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
Use the hospitals the nightingale hospitals that was built last time for all hospitalized covid patient keep them away from the hospitals where people are getting other people need treatment...we had the sense to do this hundred of years ago with contagious disease churches and other buildings was used
We can convert buildings into make shift hospitals. Can you explain how we can convert available people into health care professionals?
Even if hospitals are not running at full compatibility and staff are split between the two it's better than no hospital at all you can not say every doctor and nurse what ever there speciality had to be used in the last wave and I'm sure there are trainees that can be used with in the whole system where they can do safely for patients and volunteers for non medical roles within the hospitals
The NHS is currently understaffed by over 100,000 people. 44,000 of those are nursing vacancies. We do not have enough people to staff the NHS without COVID-19 in its current hospitals. Splitting staff would cause potentially catastrophic shortages in both places and result in lower capacity than we currently have.
I realise it’s human nature to seek a simple solution for complex problems but it’s really not going to help in this case."
But a lot of hospital department would be ok to have closed for the time being keep the cancer treatment going and other life threatening illness
only do essential operations so all the wards don't have to stay open
I'm sure there must be unemployed nurses and doctors that haven't been employed due to budget cuts that could get temp placements I know that a lot come from abroad but can't tell me there is none here |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
" But a lot of hospital department would be ok to have closed for the time being keep the cancer treatment going and other life threatening illness
only do essential operations so all the wards don't have to stay open
I'm sure there must be unemployed nurses and doctors that haven't been employed due to budget cuts that could get temp placements I know that a lot come from abroad but can't tell me there is none here "
The vast majority of ongoing cancer treatment didn’t stop during the first lockdown, the problem was largely (but not exclusively) with diagnosing new cancers or catching reoccurrences with surveillance. In my trust the staff who work in the oncology department have never come out of lockdown, so they can continue to treat patients without fearing of infecting them.
Any nurses who are unemployed are that way because they are either incompetent or they choose to be. There are 44,000 nursing vacancies that any nurse could walk into tomorrow but for a number of reasons they choose to work for agencies instead.
The idea that there is some untapped pool of nurses that could step into the breach is, I’m afraid, a fallacy. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" But a lot of hospital department would be ok to have closed for the time being keep the cancer treatment going and other life threatening illness
only do essential operations so all the wards don't have to stay open
I'm sure there must be unemployed nurses and doctors that haven't been employed due to budget cuts that could get temp placements I know that a lot come from abroad but can't tell me there is none here
The vast majority of ongoing cancer treatment didn’t stop during the first lockdown, the problem was largely (but not exclusively) with diagnosing new cancers or catching reoccurrences with surveillance. In my trust the staff who work in the oncology department have never come out of lockdown, so they can continue to treat patients without fearing of infecting them.
Any nurses who are unemployed are that way because they are either incompetent or they choose to be. There are 44,000 nursing vacancies that any nurse could walk into tomorrow but for a number of reasons they choose to work for agencies instead.
The idea that there is some untapped pool of nurses that could step into the breach is, I’m afraid, a fallacy. "
So what was the point in preparing the nightingale hospitals for patients in first wave if they can't be staffed they put there just for show? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" But a lot of hospital department would be ok to have closed for the time being keep the cancer treatment going and other life threatening illness
only do essential operations so all the wards don't have to stay open
I'm sure there must be unemployed nurses and doctors that haven't been employed due to budget cuts that could get temp placements I know that a lot come from abroad but can't tell me there is none here
The vast majority of ongoing cancer treatment didn’t stop during the first lockdown, the problem was largely (but not exclusively) with diagnosing new cancers or catching reoccurrences with surveillance. In my trust the staff who work in the oncology department have never come out of lockdown, so they can continue to treat patients without fearing of infecting them.
Any nurses who are unemployed are that way because they are either incompetent or they choose to be. There are 44,000 nursing vacancies that any nurse could walk into tomorrow but for a number of reasons they choose to work for agencies instead.
The idea that there is some untapped pool of nurses that could step into the breach is, I’m afraid, a fallacy.
So what was the point in preparing the nightingale hospitals for patients in first wave if they can't be staffed they put there just for show?"
Yep, that’s exactly what they were for, show. They were an expensive PR stunt that made it look as if the government were doing something. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" But a lot of hospital department would be ok to have closed for the time being keep the cancer treatment going and other life threatening illness
only do essential operations so all the wards don't have to stay open
I'm sure there must be unemployed nurses and doctors that haven't been employed due to budget cuts that could get temp placements I know that a lot come from abroad but can't tell me there is none here
The vast majority of ongoing cancer treatment didn’t stop during the first lockdown, the problem was largely (but not exclusively) with diagnosing new cancers or catching reoccurrences with surveillance. In my trust the staff who work in the oncology department have never come out of lockdown, so they can continue to treat patients without fearing of infecting them.
Any nurses who are unemployed are that way because they are either incompetent or they choose to be. There are 44,000 nursing vacancies that any nurse could walk into tomorrow but for a number of reasons they choose to work for agencies instead.
The idea that there is some untapped pool of nurses that could step into the breach is, I’m afraid, a fallacy.
So what was the point in preparing the nightingale hospitals for patients in first wave if they can't be staffed they put there just for show?"
Because if the worst had happened they would have moved medical staff from other areas to staff it, potentially at the cost of other patients lives. They were to be used only in the event of a total emergency where our efforts to contain Covid had failed and we were overrun. They are not meant to be there so we can all ignore the other guidance and carry on as normal. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
I'm so sorry
Brave guy your Dad sounds
Seconded. "
Thanks for all those who put supportive comments about my Dad it means a lot.
He is looking forward to meeting mine and K's first child at the end of Nov. Fingers crossed I can be at the birth and this new life brings a ray of shineshine into what looks to be a bleak winter x
KJ |
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ"
My elderly mother in law says the same thing. She just wants to die at home surrounded by loved ones, not in a hospital bed. And she’s been close a couple of times (enforced comas etc) so she’s talking from experience. |
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"The problem with what you suggest is that cases would still rise as would hospitalisations, leading to a probable over stretching of medical resources.
As someone prepared to adopt your own proposal would you willingly relinquish your right to being treated in hospital should you fall seriously ill with Covid-19? It would seem the natural conclusion to what you suggest, thus leaving more resource for those who don’t want to adopt your approach.
I wonder if your son would be happy for you not to be treated.
The break in my Dad's Cancer treatment due to the 1st lockdown has already sealed his fate anyway to be honest. He is now stage 4 and terminal, his PSA has jumped massively in the period all treatment was suspended due to covid. The treatment he gets now is a half way measure that can be administered in his home. All that can do now is slow the spread.
To answer your question if it's covid, the cancer or anything else that kills my Dad he has decided he will have his final days at home. He has everything he needs there in terms of medicine, morphine, oxygen and carers.
His biggest fear is dying along in hospital without his family been able to be with him at the end.
To many of his friends in the hospice (he was an out patient who went 2 days a week to give my mum rest bite) sadly passed away in hospital or the hospice before it closed alone without family and scared in the 1st wave.
So no he won't burden the NHS or take up a bed in ICU. As his son I fully support his decision.
KJ
The thing is The NHS were simply not equipped to deal with both.
So I'm not sure what people are actually suggesting we do?
Use the hospitals the nightingale hospitals that was built last time for all hospitalized covid patient keep them away from the hospitals where people are getting other people need treatment...we had the sense to do this hundred of years ago with contagious disease churches and other buildings was used
We can convert buildings into make shift hospitals. Can you explain how we can convert available people into health care professionals?
Even if hospitals are not running at full compatibility and staff are split between the two it's better than no hospital at all you can not say every doctor and nurse what ever there speciality had to be used in the last wave and I'm sure there are trainees that can be used with in the whole system where they can do safely for patients and volunteers for non medical roles within the hospitals
The NHS is currently understaffed by over 100,000 people. 44,000 of those are nursing vacancies. We do not have enough people to staff the NHS without COVID-19 in its current hospitals. Splitting staff would cause potentially catastrophic shortages in both places and result in lower capacity than we currently have.
I realise it’s human nature to seek a simple solution for complex problems but it’s really not going to help in this case.
But a lot of hospital department would be ok to have closed for the time being keep the cancer treatment going and other life threatening illness
only do essential operations so all the wards don't have to stay open
I'm sure there must be unemployed nurses and doctors that haven't been employed due to budget cuts that could get temp placements I know that a lot come from abroad but can't tell me there is none here "
The numbers of doctors and nurses employed has increased since 2010.
Source: Kingsfund
How many doctors, nurses and managers are there in the NHS in England?
In March 2019 there were 112,031 doctors, 311,380 qualified nursing staff (including midwives and health visitors) and 34,556 managers in the NHS out of a total workforce of 1,093,638 (all figures are full-time equivalent). Between March 2010 and March 2019, the number of doctors and nurses rose while the number of managers fell slightly.
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By *ess37Woman
over a year ago
Nantwich |
""Everybody has very different circumstances.
If you look in this virus forum section, you will see many posts about the same proposal.
It's not a viable option as the country is not resourced for it. It would also overload the health services, damaging care for people needing other life saving and health treatments.
It's inhumane to throw the vulnerable to suffer. Many won't have the support they need.
Review the other posts for more details "
So, for how long do you expect everyone to live under restrictions?
You're saying that even if we take away the majority of risk to the known vulnerable groups the NHS still won't be able to cope with the number of otherwise healthy who get covid.
The Government have already said that only the most vulnerable will get vaccinated at least in the first year (and probably ever, unless the vaccine turns out to be a one shot for life deal which is highly unlikely).
Do you see the problem here? In that scenario - the one which appears at present to be by far the most likely - we NEVER end the restrictions because the NHS will ALWAYS be unable to cope.
There is no end game.
THAT is the truth that isn't be understood by those wanting to continue these restrictions. In the end there is no other solution in the foreseeable future other than letting people make their own decisions.
If you have an answer to that, that doesn't involve hoping for some magic bullet of a cure, please tell me because I can't see it."
Before I put in my 5 pennies, I do highly respect all your comments - always a great pleasure to read ... and to KJ when I’ve read the post about your Dad it made me angry - Who are we to play GOD and choose who is going to live or die??? It’s crazy and covid made people blind, blind to see things long term and in larger perspective!!! .... Here’s the thing - everything is possible, if all the resources that have been spent on paying lockdown wages/furlough, compensation for companies (and there are enough resources in the U.K.) were put into actually saving all the life’s at this difficult times then ‘shielding would be possible’ - guys you have to remember we are not living in third world country but one of the richest countries and yes NHS struggles but NHS struggles because there is not enough funding from the government since many many years. The money spent on lockdowns would make enough to build new hospitals in a matter of weeks, create ‘shielding centres’ where people would not need to feel alone and scared and let me tell you - just as many volunteers took part in the program at the beginning of lockdown just as many would be found to help in this project ... covid is here and it won’t be gone soon so yes we have to save life’s but not only covid life’s - the ones of people who can’t be treated right now and the future deaths as a consequence of lockdowns - we are destroying many many life’s at this very moment .... |
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By *ab jamesMan
over a year ago
ribble valley |
Having had terminal cancer visit my family on more than one occasion, my heart goes out to anyone in this position. We had doctors, nurses, a dozen visits by the loveliest carers every day. Until I die, my thanks will always be with them.
This care puts a huge strain on the NHS. It's not efficient to let folk pass away at home. Not everyone has family and friends to be with them. With my mum, she had to go into hospital for the last few weeks as her cancer was evil. I don't know what the answer is, but I don't want people to have to stay at home if proper care can't be given. In my case, I even considered killing my own mum, to protect her. Luckily the great people of the NHS were there to help and support. |
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Every single vulnerable member of my family feels like this.
All of them don't want to see the economic devastation and the majority of our working age family members continue to loss jobs, opportunities, potentially the homes they worked hard to buy.
Finally the greatest cost is to the young. They are the first to be let go in jobs and have already been messed about in terms of their education.
My cousin went to university because that's what the government and the uni absolutely encouraged at the time. Now she is trapped far from home, in forced isolation trying to learn via online only in halls of residence.
At the same time a significant section of society have been whipped into a frenzy of blame that's aggressively placed on the shoulders of students and the young.
As my Dad who has cancer (his treatment was stopped during the 1st lockdown) said "If another full lockdown happens then everyone has to lockdown including the vulnerable anyway so it's 6 and 2 3s to me. I'd much rather lockdown as a vulnerable person knowing all those who want to can return to normal asap rather than have them cooped up with me whilst the country goes to rack and ruin!"
KJ"
Such a great set of points here. I'm sure no one wants to see people suffer or die.
There is a balancing act between the economy and keeping people safe. I'm sure everyone should be able to manage their own risk and by knows the risks. At the moment I do feel it we are pushing our selves as a country into one hell hole of a mess. Both with covid cases and the economy and people general well being. We have got that balancing act wrong at the moment and we are all suffering in one way or another. Some more than others, and there isn't an end in sight at the moment. I think people just need something to cling to, to help see them through this tough period. |
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""Everybody has very different circumstances.
If you look in this virus forum section, you will see many posts about the same proposal.
It's not a viable option as the country is not resourced for it. It would also overload the health services, damaging care for people needing other life saving and health treatments.
It's inhumane to throw the vulnerable to suffer. Many won't have the support they need.
Review the other posts for more details "
So, for how long do you expect everyone to live under restrictions?
You're saying that even if we take away the majority of risk to the known vulnerable groups the NHS still won't be able to cope with the number of otherwise healthy who get covid.
The Government have already said that only the most vulnerable will get vaccinated at least in the first year (and probably ever, unless the vaccine turns out to be a one shot for life deal which is highly unlikely).
Do you see the problem here? In that scenario - the one which appears at present to be by far the most likely - we NEVER end the restrictions because the NHS will ALWAYS be unable to cope.
There is no end game.
THAT is the truth that isn't be understood by those wanting to continue these restrictions. In the end there is no other solution in the foreseeable future other than letting people make their own decisions.
If you have an answer to that, that doesn't involve hoping for some magic bullet of a cure, please tell me because I can't see it."
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By *ab jamesMan
over a year ago
ribble valley |
""Everybody has very different circumstances.
If you look in this virus forum section, you will see many posts about the same proposal.
It's not a viable option as the country is not resourced for it. It would also overload the health services, damaging care for people needing other life saving and health treatments.
It's inhumane to throw the vulnerable to suffer. Many won't have the support they need.
Review the other posts for more details "
So, for how long do you expect everyone to live under restrictions?
You're saying that even if we take away the majority of risk to the known vulnerable groups the NHS still won't be able to cope with the number of otherwise healthy who get covid.
The Government have already said that only the most vulnerable will get vaccinated at least in the first year (and probably ever, unless the vaccine turns out to be a one shot for life deal which is highly unlikely).
Do you see the problem here? In that scenario - the one which appears at present to be by far the most likely - we NEVER end the restrictions because the NHS will ALWAYS be unable to cope.
There is no end game.
THAT is the truth that isn't be understood by those wanting to continue these restrictions. In the end there is no other solution in the foreseeable future other than letting people make their own decisions.
If you have an answer to that, that doesn't involve hoping for some magic bullet of a cure, please tell me because I can't see it.
"
Sage think a couple of vaccines should be ready in a few months. Why really screw things up now , without at least waiting a little longer. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Having had terminal cancer visit my family on more than one occasion, my heart goes out to anyone in this position. We had doctors, nurses, a dozen visits by the loveliest carers every day. Until I die, my thanks will always be with them.
This care puts a huge strain on the NHS. It's not efficient to let folk pass away at home. Not everyone has family and friends to be with them. With my mum, she had to go into hospital for the last few weeks as her cancer was evil. I don't know what the answer is, but I don't want people to have to stay at home if proper care can't be given. In my case, I even considered killing my own mum, to protect her. Luckily the great people of the NHS were there to help and support. "
I'm very sorry about your mum.
My mums stockpiled a decent amount of morphine so when they time comes we can hopefully make his passing as easy as is possible.
It funny but it always reminds me of the scene in Saving Private Ryan when the Medic has been shot and asks his troops to describe his wound. The realization on his face when he knows its went through his liver and given his medical knowledge and the situation he understands its fatal. His next step is to request more morphine, i.e. enough to push him over and ease his pain and Tom Hanks character agrees as a mercy.
KJ |
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By *ab jamesMan
over a year ago
ribble valley |
"Having had terminal cancer visit my family on more than one occasion, my heart goes out to anyone in this position. We had doctors, nurses, a dozen visits by the loveliest carers every day. Until I die, my thanks will always be with them.
This care puts a huge strain on the NHS. It's not efficient to let folk pass away at home. Not everyone has family and friends to be with them. With my mum, she had to go into hospital for the last few weeks as her cancer was evil. I don't know what the answer is, but I don't want people to have to stay at home if proper care can't be given. In my case, I even considered killing my own mum, to protect her. Luckily the great people of the NHS were there to help and support.
I'm very sorry about your mum.
My mums stockpiled a decent amount of morphine so when they time comes we can hopefully make his passing as easy as is possible.
It funny but it always reminds me of the scene in Saving Private Ryan when the Medic has been shot and asks his troops to describe his wound. The realization on his face when he knows its went through his liver and given his medical knowledge and the situation he understands its fatal. His next step is to request more morphine, i.e. enough to push him over and ease his pain and Tom Hanks character agrees as a mercy.
KJ"
It's a difficult subject, but I'm not brave enough like my ma, so I've made plans if it comes to me. |
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