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So what happens next?
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"Or we could go back to normal and invest in health care and hospitals and care homes so that they can cope with a few extra thousand people a year and give the care needed. Educate those that are in at risk catogories and stop - ruining the economy - ruining the lives of all 66 million people in this country - ruining the lives and education of our children - forcing the elderly to pretty much suffer for what could be their last months with us - scaremongering in the press - using naff statistics I’m sorry but the over all impact of this virus is still not actually that bad check world figures of confirmed infection over now 8 months not that high, confirmed deaths not that high. There is and will now be a excess of deaths due to cancer, obisety and dimentia now due to lockdown that is a fact " Last paragraph - a likelihood, not a fact. | |||
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"Or we could go back to normal and invest in health care and hospitals and care homes so that they can cope with a few extra thousand people a year and give the care needed. Educate those that are in at risk catogories and stop - ruining the economy - ruining the lives of all 66 million people in this country - ruining the lives and education of our children - forcing the elderly to pretty much suffer for what could be their last months with us - scaremongering in the press - using naff statistics I’m sorry but the over all impact of this virus is still not actually that bad check world figures of confirmed infection over now 8 months not that high, confirmed deaths not that high. There is and will now be a excess of deaths due to cancer, obisety and dimentia now due to lockdown that is a fact Last paragraph - a likelihood, not a fact. " I’m afraid it is fact. Missed appointments for cancer treatments and diagnose are so far behind that there has already been increased deaths. The number of now diagnosed cases of dimentia this year now outways any other year. And I’m afraid you don’t need to be a scientist to understand that if you reduce what people do for 6 months ( including children ) then obisety will rise. With people having to now queue for shops are wAit in for delivery there will be less time for exercise and less moving around in general ( typically the poor and the old this will impact most ) | |||
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"What next? You'll have to wait for UKGov, The Behavioural Insights Team, WHO, UN, PHE & NHS to tell you what and how frightened you should be of their next sham. Take it from someone who took their dad to casualty with a badly sprained ankle, who was asked to sign a DNR form before they'd let my old dad through the doors. I refused to sign, advised him to refuse too, they threatened to involve Social Services and have him removed from my care so he could be taken into a home. S21 of the Covid Act 2020 allows that, we resisted. Fortunately we got him home & did our own round the clock treatment for him, sis in law & niece both nurses wife ex RAMC. I suspect the next thing to be thrown at us will be us having to make an appointment to attend casualty,that'll frighten plenty, as the plan is to close casualty depts to give C-19 patients priority. Although I hear they have bubonic plague in Mongolia at the moment." Your message has not shocked me but has made me angry beyond angry. I am so sorry that you had to deal with that at the hospital that is outrageous, when I read that myself I thought no one in the right mind will enforce that.... OMG was I wrong. I'm glad your dad's on the mend. I have a similar story where my dad was rang and was asked to be put on a DNR, my dad said no and then the doctor repeatedly asked in different ways almost like coercion to be put on a DNR made me sick, he stuck to his guns and said I have a right to live. Also a friend of mine who is blind had to to be admitted to hospital when he left and got home his wife looked in his bag and there was a DNR note in there and the reason given .... CLINICALLY BLIND (He's 35 fit as a fiddle and has 2 children)..... Sounds to me and so many others like he'd be a burden to the NHS etc. | |||
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"Population immunity is not a myth. We are still in the crux of the pandemic so it's pointless getting ahead of ourselves. Govts have to look at both long term and short term strategies for an ever-changing state. To concentrate purely on long-term strategies would be too costly. Stdies/research are ongoing. " Not suggesting to concentrate solely on long term strategies, but suggesting we start working on long term strategies... (as well as short term mitigations etc). I was reading some articles from a friend in NZ and it just got me thinking rather differently. | |||
"Or we could go back to normal and invest in health care and hospitals and care homes so that they can cope with a few extra thousand people a year and give the care needed. Educate those that are in at risk catogories and stop - ruining the economy - ruining the lives of all 66 million people in this country - ruining the lives and education of our children - forcing the elderly to pretty much suffer for what could be their last months with us - scaremongering in the press - using naff statistics I’m sorry but the over all impact of this virus is still not actually that bad check world figures of confirmed infection over now 8 months not that high, confirmed deaths not that high. There is and will now be a excess of deaths due to cancer, obisety and dimentia now due to lockdown that is a fact " All very good points, BUT to pick out one at random... Which I suspect drives a lot of other behaviours... "using naff statistics".... How would we address that? And how would be take the perceived politics out of them so we can focus on making progress? Is there a need for a coalition or unity cross party leadership for a period of time? | |||
"I've been thinking... Yes I know. Be careful and all that. But there are some penny's finally dropping for me. Some facts that as much as we may wish were not true, that they are. Herd immunity is a myth for this disease. Even if it were possible, health systems will not be able to cope with the sheer volume of numbers. So the virus is with us now for ever. Wishing we could go back to "normal" whilst understandable is foolish and unsustainable. We need to start thinking and planning longer term than summer holidays, next school term and Xmas and start thinking strategically 5 years and 10 years ahead. The idea that we can fly / ferry / travel infected people from one region to another is not sustainable. People need to alter their behaviours radically to find a new normal that is fulfilling and enjoyable and economically viable. Aspiring to go back to what it was will just become frustrating for all concerned. We either need to build on our own, agriculture, manufacturing, health, economy, meaning new training, new education or we need to build partnerships with nations that share policies for getting us through this mess.. Ironic given brexit as one example. Sorry kind of turned into a waffle... I guess my question is.. How are we going to have to fundamentally think differently to get 5 years, 10 years away? It's the well used change curve, and the quicker we recognise make the changes the quicker we can steam ahead happier and safer. Imho. " A lot os sense in many ways | |||
"Or we could go back to normal and invest in health care and hospitals and care homes so that they can cope with a few extra thousand people a year and give the care needed. Educate those that are in at risk catogories and stop - ruining the economy - ruining the lives of all 66 million people in this country - ruining the lives and education of our children - forcing the elderly to pretty much suffer for what could be their last months with us - scaremongering in the press - using naff statistics I’m sorry but the over all impact of this virus is still not actually that bad check world figures of confirmed infection over now 8 months not that high, confirmed deaths not that high. There is and will now be a excess of deaths due to cancer, obisety and dimentia now due to lockdown that is a fact Last paragraph - a likelihood, not a fact. I’m afraid it is fact. Missed appointments for cancer treatments and diagnose are so far behind that there has already been increased deaths. The number of now diagnosed cases of dimentia this year now outways any other year. And I’m afraid you don’t need to be a scientist to understand that if you reduce what people do for 6 months ( including children ) then obisety will rise. With people having to now queue for shops are wAit in for delivery there will be less time for exercise and less moving around in general ( typically the poor and the old this will impact most ) " The number of newly diagnosed dementia patients will rise year on year. The reason for this (and dependent on type) is that we have medication to slow down process so earlier diagnosis is paramount. Cameron's govt pushed for more research and higher health input into this area. Dementia (for most) is a slow degenerative disease, therefore more dementia related deaths due to covid19 is not a fact. In fact (lol) due to measures taken, the number of diagnoses will be less as the NHS shut down most non-urgent sectors to release staff to assist in the number of cv19 patients. As for obesity - it was already a huge issue, excuse the pun before our fat prime minister got cv19. However, nothing wrong with his experience making the public realise it is NOT okay to be obese. Overweight and obese counts for over half the adult population in the UK (and, if I remember correctly, about 2/3 of adults in the US). Yes there may be a rise in cases but that doesn't make death imminent. Therefore you are incorrect to state more deaths as a fact, unless you are predicting over a long period of time. Re cancer - yes. | |||
"Or we could go back to normal and invest in health care and hospitals and care homes so that they can cope with a few extra thousand people a year and give the care needed. Educate those that are in at risk catogories and stop - ruining the economy - ruining the lives of all 66 million people in this country - ruining the lives and education of our children - forcing the elderly to pretty much suffer for what could be their last months with us - scaremongering in the press - using naff statistics I’m sorry but the over all impact of this virus is still not actually that bad check world figures of confirmed infection over now 8 months not that high, confirmed deaths not that high. There is and will now be a excess of deaths due to cancer, obisety and dimentia now due to lockdown that is a fact All very good points, BUT to pick out one at random... Which I suspect drives a lot of other behaviours... "using naff statistics".... How would we address that? And how would be take the perceived politics out of them so we can focus on making progress? Is there a need for a coalition or unity cross party leadership for a period of time? " well this is the hard bit. I actually set myself a challenge on Sunday to try and actually find out the infection number and death number for London. And do you know what I found 3 different figures from several different news articles for both. What was amazing was that in the evening standard they actually had two different figures in the same article for infection rates across England. None of the figures are of real concern to be honest if we just invested heavily in health care and rather than furlough schemes, grants, eat out schemes. Return to normal now is what is actually best for every ones normal health and mental health. I’m sorry to say but to save a few and the expense of the whole is a dreadful place to be in. | |||
"Or we could go back to normal and invest in health care and hospitals and care homes so that they can cope with a few extra thousand people a year and give the care needed. Educate those that are in at risk catogories and stop - ruining the economy - ruining the lives of all 66 million people in this country - ruining the lives and education of our children - forcing the elderly to pretty much suffer for what could be their last months with us - scaremongering in the press - using naff statistics I’m sorry but the over all impact of this virus is still not actually that bad check world figures of confirmed infection over now 8 months not that high, confirmed deaths not that high. There is and will now be a excess of deaths due to cancer, obisety and dimentia now due to lockdown that is a fact Last paragraph - a likelihood, not a fact. I’m afraid it is fact. Missed appointments for cancer treatments and diagnose are so far behind that there has already been increased deaths. The number of now diagnosed cases of dimentia this year now outways any other year. And I’m afraid you don’t need to be a scientist to understand that if you reduce what people do for 6 months ( including children ) then obisety will rise. With people having to now queue for shops are wAit in for delivery there will be less time for exercise and less moving around in general ( typically the poor and the old this will impact most ) The number of newly diagnosed dementia patients will rise year on year. The reason for this (and dependent on type) is that we have medication to slow down process so earlier diagnosis is paramount. Cameron's govt pushed for more research and higher health input into this area. Dementia (for most) is a slow degenerative disease, therefore more dementia related deaths due to covid19 is not a fact. In fact (lol) due to measures taken, the number of diagnoses will be less as the NHS shut down most non-urgent sectors to release staff to assist in the number of cv19 patients. As for obesity - it was already a huge issue, excuse the pun before our fat prime minister got cv19. However, nothing wrong with his experience making the public realise it is NOT okay to be obese. Overweight and obese counts for over half the adult population in the UK (and, if I remember correctly, about 2/3 of adults in the US). Yes there may be a rise in cases but that doesn't make death imminent. Therefore you are incorrect to state more deaths as a fact, unless you are predicting over a long period of time. Re cancer - yes. " so technically you are agreeing with me that those three things are worse than Covid 19 and will continue to be | |||
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" Herd immunity is a myth for this disease." What do you mean herd immunity is a myth? It is a scientific fact and is a form of indirect protection from infectious disease that occurs when a large percentage of a population has become immune to an infection, whether through vaccination or previous infections, thereby providing a measure of protection for individuals who are not immune. If a vaccine does not come along it is the only game in town. Exactly as occurs with influenza and Rhinoviruses every year. It's looking more and more likely that exposure to other Coronaviruses (colds) may offer some protection against CV19 and that there is also likely to be immunity from Memory T cells induced by previous pathogens. Thus herd immunity may be achievable with a much lower percentage of infections than previously thought. Exactly what do we need to be planning for (other than protecting the elderly and vulnerable) in respect of a normal pathogen with an Infection Fatality Rate similar to severe flu? 64,000 excess death each year from air pollution and no one is planning to lockdown any vehicles. Many thousands now dying from the collateral damage of the ludicrous policies that have been put in place. Thousands more will die because of that and the economic catastrophe that is going to follow. No one seems to be taking any of those deaths into account and they will exceed direct CV19 deaths by a wide margin. | |||
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"Or we could go back to normal and invest in health care and hospitals and care homes so that they can cope with a few extra thousand people a year and give the care needed. Educate those that are in at risk catogories and stop - ruining the economy - ruining the lives of all 66 million people in this country - ruining the lives and education of our children - forcing the elderly to pretty much suffer for what could be their last months with us - scaremongering in the press - using naff statistics I’m sorry but the over all impact of this virus is still not actually that bad check world figures of confirmed infection over now 8 months not that high, confirmed deaths not that high. There is and will now be a excess of deaths due to cancer, obisety and dimentia now due to lockdown that is a fact Last paragraph - a likelihood, not a fact. I’m afraid it is fact. Missed appointments for cancer treatments and diagnose are so far behind that there has already been increased deaths. The number of now diagnosed cases of dimentia this year now outways any other year. And I’m afraid you don’t need to be a scientist to understand that if you reduce what people do for 6 months ( including children ) then obisety will rise. With people having to now queue for shops are wAit in for delivery there will be less time for exercise and less moving around in general ( typically the poor and the old this will impact most ) The number of newly diagnosed dementia patients will rise year on year. The reason for this (and dependent on type) is that we have medication to slow down process so earlier diagnosis is paramount. Cameron's govt pushed for more research and higher health input into this area. Dementia (for most) is a slow degenerative disease, therefore more dementia related deaths due to covid19 is not a fact. In fact (lol) due to measures taken, the number of diagnoses will be less as the NHS shut down most non-urgent sectors to release staff to assist in the number of cv19 patients. As for obesity - it was already a huge issue, excuse the pun before our fat prime minister got cv19. However, nothing wrong with his experience making the public realise it is NOT okay to be obese. Overweight and obese counts for over half the adult population in the UK (and, if I remember correctly, about 2/3 of adults in the US). Yes there may be a rise in cases but that doesn't make death imminent. Therefore you are incorrect to state more deaths as a fact, unless you are predicting over a long period of time. Re cancer - yes. so technically you are agreeing with me that those three things are worse than Covid 19 and will continue to be " 
I maintain "excess of deaths" is not a fact but a likelihood. | |||
"1 million people alone in this country could die from Covid 19 and that is still not that massive % when you consider all of the negative impacts everything we have done to stop Covid 19 ( which hasn’t stopped it but just slowed it ) will have on this country now for years to come. Not to mention most of those that die would have died within next 12 months anyway. Horrible to hear I know but needs to be said " Your information really appears skewed to me - the restrictions were never designed to stop the virus but flatten the curve of the peak, enabling the NHS to cope with the severely affected. A previous post mentioned that the lockdown was 10% wrong and illegal, wtf? And 10 year impact on children 3-18. With the lower ages, how? I certainly cannot see how the majority of nursery and reception ages will not bounce back when the main delay is mostly social as formal education starts from 5 does it not? | |||
"https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8574317/Lockdown-caused-21-000-extra-deaths-reduced-access-healthcare.html More and more articles and science backing the fact that lockdown actually has killed as many people as it has saved if not more. With the long term impact even worse on non Covid related deaths. Daily mail I know but hundreds of scientific papers out there now suggesting the same. Lockdown was 10% wrong and illegal. I can not believe the negative impact it will have on this country for at least the next 10 years and almost certainly a lot longer impact on children aged between 3 and 18 " If the mail told me the sky was blue I'd go out and check. | |||
"Not to mention most of those that die would have died within next 12 months anyway. Horrible to hear I know but needs to be said " I have to say this kind of thinking really is twisted and presented so poorly. I can assure you only a small percentage of patients “would have died in the next 12 months anyway”. The term “underlying conditions” which does indeed apply to 95% of deaths includes people with the most minor of issues. Personally I’ve seen a guy in his 20’s with mild asthma, non insulin dependent diabetics in the prime of their life, a teenager with a mild heart murmur, a young mum who had suffered phenomena 2 years ago, the list goes on.... these people had decades left in them. It’s worth thinking how many of us would be classified as “underlying conditions”, I reckon it’s a good percentage, I also reckon most of us think we have plenty of life in us yet x | |||
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"Or we could go back to normal and invest in health care and hospitals and care homes so that they can cope with a few extra thousand people a year and give the care needed. Educate those that are in at risk catogories and stop - ruining the economy - ruining the lives of all 66 million people in this country - ruining the lives and education of our children - forcing the elderly to pretty much suffer for what could be their last months with us - scaremongering in the press - using naff statistics I’m sorry but the over all impact of this virus is still not actually that bad check world figures of confirmed infection over now 8 months not that high, confirmed deaths not that high. There is and will now be a excess of deaths due to cancer, obisety and dimentia now due to lockdown that is a fact Last paragraph - a likelihood, not a fact. I’m afraid it is fact. Missed appointments for cancer treatments and diagnose are so far behind that there has already been increased deaths. The number of now diagnosed cases of dimentia this year now outways any other year. And I’m afraid you don’t need to be a scientist to understand that if you reduce what people do for 6 months ( including children ) then obisety will rise. With people having to now queue for shops are wAit in for delivery there will be less time for exercise and less moving around in general ( typically the poor and the old this will impact most ) The number of newly diagnosed dementia patients will rise year on year. The reason for this (and dependent on type) is that we have medication to slow down process so earlier diagnosis is paramount. Cameron's govt pushed for more research and higher health input into this area. Dementia (for most) is a slow degenerative disease, therefore more dementia related deaths due to covid19 is not a fact. In fact (lol) due to measures taken, the number of diagnoses will be less as the NHS shut down most non-urgent sectors to release staff to assist in the number of cv19 patients. As for obesity - it was already a huge issue, excuse the pun before our fat prime minister got cv19. However, nothing wrong with his experience making the public realise it is NOT okay to be obese. Overweight and obese counts for over half the adult population in the UK (and, if I remember correctly, about 2/3 of adults in the US). Yes there may be a rise in cases but that doesn't make death imminent. Therefore you are incorrect to state more deaths as a fact, unless you are predicting over a long period of time. Re cancer - yes. so technically you are agreeing with me that those three things are worse than Covid 19 and will continue to be
I maintain "excess of deaths" is not a fact but a likelihood. "based on same models they used to impose lockdown and current restrictions. | |||
"1 million people alone in this country could die from Covid 19 and that is still not that massive % when you consider all of the negative impacts everything we have done to stop Covid 19 ( which hasn’t stopped it but just slowed it ) will have on this country now for years to come. Not to mention most of those that die would have died within next 12 months anyway. Horrible to hear I know but needs to be said Your information really appears skewed to me - the restrictions were never designed to stop the virus but flatten the curve of the peak, enabling the NHS to cope with the severely affected. A previous post mentioned that the lockdown was 10% wrong and illegal, wtf? And 10 year impact on children 3-18. With the lower ages, how? I certainly cannot see how the majority of nursery and reception ages will not bounce back when the main delay is mostly social as formal education starts from 5 does it not? " never said anything about 10% illegal I said it was I believe it was 100% wrong thing to do and illegal. The impact on children 3-18 is about their mental and physical growth the impact on their education and likely good of getting a job over the next ten years the terrible terrible impact to those children whose parents lose their jobs, homes due to lockdown and have to move for reasons they are not prepared for whole lives ruined for years to come | |||
"I wonder how many of those who say “they would have died anyway “ have lost someone close to Covid." It's easy to be callous when it does not affect you. | |||
"https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8574317/Lockdown-caused-21-000-extra-deaths-reduced-access-healthcare.html More and more articles and science backing the fact that lockdown actually has killed as many people as it has saved if not more. With the long term impact even worse on non Covid related deaths. Daily mail I know but hundreds of scientific papers out there now suggesting the same. Lockdown was 10% wrong and illegal. I can not believe the negative impact it will have on this country for at least the next 10 years and almost certainly a lot longer impact on children aged between 3 and 18 If the mail told me the sky was blue I'd go out and check." to be fair I did say daily mail I know ( shit paper I deslike it myself ) but unfortunately the science is there with eveidence to back it . | |||
"Not to mention most of those that die would have died within next 12 months anyway. Horrible to hear I know but needs to be said I have to say this kind of thinking really is twisted and presented so poorly. I can assure you only a small percentage of patients “would have died in the next 12 months anyway”. The term “underlying conditions” which does indeed apply to 95% of deaths includes people with the most minor of issues. Personally I’ve seen a guy in his 20’s with mild asthma, non insulin dependent diabetics in the prime of their life, a teenager with a mild heart murmur, a young mum who had suffered phenomena 2 years ago, the list goes on.... these people had decades left in them. It’s worth thinking how many of us would be classified as “underlying conditions”, I reckon it’s a good percentage, I also reckon most of us think we have plenty of life in us yet x " so you’ve personally seen them die from Covid 19 or they was already very ill with somthing else that Covid 19 complicated as much as any annual flu could. | |||
"I wonder how many of those who say “they would have died anyway “ have lost someone close to Covid. It's easy to be callous when it does not affect you." I am currently in a situation where - 2 grandparents are very ill and have both had appointments and operations that they very much need cancelled - I know 22 people who have lost the jobs - I have a very close old relative who has got down hill fast due to lockdown as they have not been able to go about normal business - a nephew whose mental state is in taters due to lock down - I am at risk of losing my job and therefore my home - neighbours 3 doors down have lost their business and their home - I still do not know anyone who has tested positive for covid 19 - is till four not know anyone who has died from Covid 19 - we have a very close family friend ( 60 ) cancer diagnosed late as he appointments where cancelled. He now has been given only months to live having been told if they had caught it 4 weeks earlier he would have years Where are the positives there??? Lockdown has only slowed Covid 19 through out the summer months which actually means it will have a much more sever impact on the health system through out the winter months. | |||
"https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8574317/Lockdown-caused-21-000-extra-deaths-reduced-access-healthcare.html More and more articles and science backing the fact that lockdown actually has killed as many people as it has saved if not more. With the long term impact even worse on non Covid related deaths. Daily mail I know but hundreds of scientific papers out there now suggesting the same. Lockdown was 10% wrong and illegal. I can not believe the negative impact it will have on this country for at least the next 10 years and almost certainly a lot longer impact on children aged between 3 and 18 If the mail told me the sky was blue I'd go out and check. to be fair I did say daily mail I know ( shit paper I deslike it myself ) but unfortunately the science is there with eveidence to back it . " Whenever the mail prints a story there is always a subtext | |||
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"I wonder how many of those who say “they would have died anyway “ have lost someone close to Covid. It's easy to be callous when it does not affect you. I am currently in a situation where - 2 grandparents are very ill and have both had appointments and operations that they very much need cancelled - I know 22 people who have lost the jobs - I have a very close old relative who has got down hill fast due to lockdown as they have not been able to go about normal business - a nephew whose mental state is in taters due to lock down - I am at risk of losing my job and therefore my home - neighbours 3 doors down have lost their business and their home - I still do not know anyone who has tested positive for covid 19 - is till four not know anyone who has died from Covid 19 - we have a very close family friend ( 60 ) cancer diagnosed late as he appointments where cancelled. He now has been given only months to live having been told if they had caught it 4 weeks earlier he would have years Where are the positives there??? Lockdown has only slowed Covid 19 through out the summer months which actually means it will have a much more sever impact on the health system through out the winter months. " Do you not think lockdown has saved lives? | |||
"No-one doubts about the seriousness of Covid19 but everything isn't as it seems. For example Rossendale is 121st on the UK Covid19 infection rates but its still one of the 18 boroughs put into lockdown last night. Yesterday on BBC News it said - 1 person is dying of Covid19 every single minute - absolutely shocking fact. So 1 death every minute - that is 1440 a day, 525600 a year. Agreed thats horrific. Now put that in context of USA population. If that rate remained constant and never changed, all other types of death stopped and no further births it would still take 624 years for Covid to kill everyone off. That is NOT me saying carry on and pretend its not happening but unless countries get their economies somehow going bigger problems than Covid are just around the corner." Agreed and I suppose I wasn't really asking if we have a problem or not.... More what we should or could be doing to get our country back on its feet. | |||
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"What next? You'll have to wait for UKGov, The Behavioural Insights Team, WHO, UN, PHE & NHS to tell you what and how frightened you should be of their next sham. Take it from someone who took their dad to casualty with a badly sprained ankle, who was asked to sign a DNR form before they'd let my old dad through the doors. I refused to sign, advised him to refuse too, they threatened to involve Social Services and have him removed from my care so he could be taken into a home. S21 of the Covid Act 2020 allows that, we resisted. Fortunately we got him home & did our own round the clock treatment for him, sis in law & niece both nurses wife ex RAMC. I suspect the next thing to be thrown at us will be us having to make an appointment to attend casualty,that'll frighten plenty, as the plan is to close casualty depts to give C-19 patients priority. Although I hear they have bubonic plague in Mongolia at the moment. Your message has not shocked me but has made me angry beyond angry. I am so sorry that you had to deal with that at the hospital that is outrageous, when I read that myself I thought no one in the right mind will enforce that.... OMG was I wrong. I'm glad your dad's on the mend. I have a similar story where my dad was rang and was asked to be put on a DNR, my dad said no and then the doctor repeatedly asked in different ways almost like coercion to be put on a DNR made me sick, he stuck to his guns and said I have a right to live. Also a friend of mine who is blind had to to be admitted to hospital when he left and got home his wife looked in his bag and there was a DNR note in there and the reason given .... CLINICALLY BLIND (He's 35 fit as a fiddle and has 2 children)..... Sounds to me and so many others like he'd be a burden to the NHS etc. " dnr dont work anyway, my elderly dad had been disabled since 18, he has a dnr, and a good one, he was a lawer, he was taken into hospital about 4 years ago with severe sepcis, he just wanted to die, but they against his wishes cured the sepcis, to a point, he now has a misarable life in a nursing home, hoping he will die soon, he isnt even able to get out of bed without a hoiste,and is never out of bed for more than an hour a day, is wheelchair bound, but to be fair he had been for a few years anyway, but my point is, they meen nothing, i even gave the paperwork to the hospital, i later found them in the bin, they even resused him, against all his wishes, we lookid into taking him to dignitas, but he is unable to fly due to his spinal injure, and coudnt cope with a drive there, and he tells me everytime i visit him that he just wishes to die, i asked him once why does he not just take an overdose, his reply is thats the cowards way out. its a horibble situation, every time i leave from visiting him im in tears. Andy | |||
"https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8574317/Lockdown-caused-21-000-extra-deaths-reduced-access-healthcare.html More and more articles and science backing the fact that lockdown actually has killed as many people as it has saved if not more. With the long term impact even worse on non Covid related deaths. Daily mail I know but hundreds of scientific papers out there now suggesting the same. Lockdown was 10% wrong and illegal. I can not believe the negative impact it will have on this country for at least the next 10 years and almost certainly a lot longer impact on children aged between 3 and 18 If the mail told me the sky was blue I'd go out and check. to be fair I did say daily mail I know ( shit paper I deslike it myself ) but unfortunately the science is there with eveidence to back it . " Oh and up there is the 10% illegal! | |||
"What next? You'll have to wait for UKGov, The Behavioural Insights Team, WHO, UN, PHE & NHS to tell you what and how frightened you should be of their next sham. Take it from someone who took their dad to casualty with a badly sprained ankle, who was asked to sign a DNR form before they'd let my old dad through the doors. I refused to sign, advised him to refuse too, they threatened to involve Social Services and have him removed from my care so he could be taken into a home. S21 of the Covid Act 2020 allows that, we resisted. Fortunately we got him home & did our own round the clock treatment for him, sis in law & niece both nurses wife ex RAMC. I suspect the next thing to be thrown at us will be us having to make an appointment to attend casualty,that'll frighten plenty, as the plan is to close casualty depts to give C-19 patients priority. Although I hear they have bubonic plague in Mongolia at the moment. Your message has not shocked me but has made me angry beyond angry. I am so sorry that you had to deal with that at the hospital that is outrageous, when I read that myself I thought no one in the right mind will enforce that.... OMG was I wrong. I'm glad your dad's on the mend. I have a similar story where my dad was rang and was asked to be put on a DNR, my dad said no and then the doctor repeatedly asked in different ways almost like coercion to be put on a DNR made me sick, he stuck to his guns and said I have a right to live. Also a friend of mine who is blind had to to be admitted to hospital when he left and got home his wife looked in his bag and there was a DNR note in there and the reason given .... CLINICALLY BLIND (He's 35 fit as a fiddle and has 2 children)..... Sounds to me and so many others like he'd be a burden to the NHS etc. dnr dont work anyway, my elderly dad had been disabled since 18, he has a dnr, and a good one, he was a lawer, he was taken into hospital about 4 years ago with severe sepcis, he just wanted to die, but they against his wishes cured the sepcis, to a point, he now has a misarable life in a nursing home, hoping he will die soon, he isnt even able to get out of bed without a hoiste,and is never out of bed for more than an hour a day, is wheelchair bound, but to be fair he had been for a few years anyway, but my point is, they meen nothing, i even gave the paperwork to the hospital, i later found them in the bin, they even resused him, against all his wishes, we lookid into taking him to dignitas, but he is unable to fly due to his spinal injure, and coudnt cope with a drive there, and he tells me everytime i visit him that he just wishes to die, i asked him once why does he not just take an overdose, his reply is thats the cowards way out. its a horibble situation, every time i leave from visiting him im in tears. Andy" I'm sorry you and he are going through this. Perhaps he needs someone to look into an Advanced Directive for him regards treatment as the DNR does not cover treatment hence why he was treated for sepsis. The DNR is reviewed periodically and perhaps not insitu at the time of his resuscitation? If it was the staff acted illegally - do complain or seek legal advice. | |||
"What next? You'll have to wait for UKGov, The Behavioural Insights Team, WHO, UN, PHE & NHS to tell you what and how frightened you should be of their next sham. Take it from someone who took their dad to casualty with a badly sprained ankle, who was asked to sign a DNR form before they'd let my old dad through the doors. I refused to sign, advised him to refuse too, they threatened to involve Social Services and have him removed from my care so he could be taken into a home. S21 of the Covid Act 2020 allows that, we resisted. Fortunately we got him home & did our own round the clock treatment for him, sis in law & niece both nurses wife ex RAMC. I suspect the next thing to be thrown at us will be us having to make an appointment to attend casualty,that'll frighten plenty, as the plan is to close casualty depts to give C-19 patients priority. Although I hear they have bubonic plague in Mongolia at the moment. Your message has not shocked me but has made me angry beyond angry. I am so sorry that you had to deal with that at the hospital that is outrageous, when I read that myself I thought no one in the right mind will enforce that.... OMG was I wrong. I'm glad your dad's on the mend. I have a similar story where my dad was rang and was asked to be put on a DNR, my dad said no and then the doctor repeatedly asked in different ways almost like coercion to be put on a DNR made me sick, he stuck to his guns and said I have a right to live. Also a friend of mine who is blind had to to be admitted to hospital when he left and got home his wife looked in his bag and there was a DNR note in there and the reason given .... CLINICALLY BLIND (He's 35 fit as a fiddle and has 2 children)..... Sounds to me and so many others like he'd be a burden to the NHS etc. dnr dont work anyway, my elderly dad had been disabled since 18, he has a dnr, and a good one, he was a lawer, he was taken into hospital about 4 years ago with severe sepcis, he just wanted to die, but they against his wishes cured the sepcis, to a point, he now has a misarable life in a nursing home, hoping he will die soon, he isnt even able to get out of bed without a hoiste,and is never out of bed for more than an hour a day, is wheelchair bound, but to be fair he had been for a few years anyway, but my point is, they meen nothing, i even gave the paperwork to the hospital, i later found them in the bin, they even resused him, against all his wishes, we lookid into taking him to dignitas, but he is unable to fly due to his spinal injure, and coudnt cope with a drive there, and he tells me everytime i visit him that he just wishes to die, i asked him once why does he not just take an overdose, his reply is thats the cowards way out. its a horibble situation, every time i leave from visiting him im in tears. Andy I'm sorry you and he are going through this. Perhaps he needs someone to look into an Advanced Directive for him regards treatment as the DNR does not cover treatment hence why he was treated for sepsis. The DNR is reviewed periodically and perhaps not insitu at the time of his resuscitation? If it was the staff acted illegally - do complain or seek legal advice. " hes done all that, as i said he was a solicitor, hes knows all the ways , but none of them are actualy legal in england yet, he through out his life pushed for them to be made legal, but got nowhere, unfortunatly the doctors belive in life at all costs, with no regard to the patiants wishes | |||
"The impact on children 3-18 is about their mental and physical growth the impact on their education and likely good of getting a job over the next ten years the terrible terrible impact to those children whose parents lose their jobs, homes due to lockdown and have to move for reasons they are not prepared for whole lives ruined for years to come " I think statements like this are quite assuming. Nobody would deny the world is a tougher place as a result of covid-19, the future will be harder for many, granted. It’s perhaps worth looking at our history post WW1, WW2 where similar economic and life struggles existed. The young generations for both eras excelled. I for one as a father look at my boys outlooks, adaptability in recent months and think actually it’s made them grow... the millennials everything served on a spoon outlook has gone, the maturity, adaptability etc is impressive. I’m not saying it’s a great thing, but actually to paint the challenge ahead as purely doom and gloom is very pessimistic | |||
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"What next? You'll have to wait for UKGov, The Behavioural Insights Team, WHO, UN, PHE & NHS to tell you what and how frightened you should be of their next sham. Take it from someone who took their dad to casualty with a badly sprained ankle, who was asked to sign a DNR form before they'd let my old dad through the doors. I refused to sign, advised him to refuse too, they threatened to involve Social Services and have him removed from my care so he could be taken into a home. S21 of the Covid Act 2020 allows that, we resisted. Fortunately we got him home & did our own round the clock treatment for him, sis in law & niece both nurses wife ex RAMC. I suspect the next thing to be thrown at us will be us having to make an appointment to attend casualty,that'll frighten plenty, as the plan is to close casualty depts to give C-19 patients priority. Although I hear they have bubonic plague in Mongolia at the moment. Your message has not shocked me but has made me angry beyond angry. I am so sorry that you had to deal with that at the hospital that is outrageous, when I read that myself I thought no one in the right mind will enforce that.... OMG was I wrong. I'm glad your dad's on the mend. I have a similar story where my dad was rang and was asked to be put on a DNR, my dad said no and then the doctor repeatedly asked in different ways almost like coercion to be put on a DNR made me sick, he stuck to his guns and said I have a right to live. Also a friend of mine who is blind had to to be admitted to hospital when he left and got home his wife looked in his bag and there was a DNR note in there and the reason given .... CLINICALLY BLIND (He's 35 fit as a fiddle and has 2 children)..... Sounds to me and so many others like he'd be a burden to the NHS etc. " Population cull, getting rid of people who may be more vulnerable in some way. | |||
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"Population cull, getting rid of people who may be more vulnerable in some way. maybe natures way of telling us we need a smaller population, lets face it we diserve it, most of the bad things in the world are caused by humans" I wasn't referring to nature. | |||
"https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8574317/Lockdown-caused-21-000-extra-deaths-reduced-access-healthcare.html More and more articles and science backing the fact that lockdown actually has killed as many people as it has saved if not more. With the long term impact even worse on non Covid related deaths. Daily mail I know but hundreds of scientific papers out there now suggesting the same. Lockdown was 10% wrong and illegal. I can not believe the negative impact it will have on this country for at least the next 10 years and almost certainly a lot longer impact on children aged between 3 and 18 " Sorry mate anyone who uses the mail as backup to an argument instantly loses. | |||
"Population cull, getting rid of people who may be more vulnerable in some way. maybe natures way of telling us we need a smaller population, lets face it we diserve it, most of the bad things in the world are caused by humans I wasn't referring to nature. " tin foil hats on lol | |||
"https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8574317/Lockdown-caused-21-000-extra-deaths-reduced-access-healthcare.html More and more articles and science backing the fact that lockdown actually has killed as many people as it has saved if not more. With the long term impact even worse on non Covid related deaths. Daily mail I know but hundreds of scientific papers out there now suggesting the same. Lockdown was 10% wrong and illegal. I can not believe the negative impact it will have on this country for at least the next 10 years and almost certainly a lot longer impact on children aged between 3 and 18 " What I’d love to hear is you talk us through our alternative non lockdown reality... So the NHS pushed beyond capacity... services maintained in a highly infectious environment. Our economic state still affected by global shutdowns... how does any of this save lives? Thanks for your article pointing out covid-19 has claimed many beyond simply the infected but explain in the manner the Daily Mail didn’t... how would they have fared better in a country that remained open and let infection rates sore? | |||
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"Population cull, getting rid of people who may be more vulnerable in some way. maybe natures way of telling us we need a smaller population, lets face it we diserve it, most of the bad things in the world are caused by humans I wasn't referring to nature. tin foil hats on lol" Childish reply. People are perfectly entitled to a different opinion to yours. | |||
"What I don't understand is that WHO figures show Malaria and TB kill 2.5 people each year.. Yet no lockdown. Covid is real, it kills people as does many many things but has there been an over reaction? I find it very difficult to know what to believe currently. "You've missed an important word after 2.5 methinks .
As for an over reaction, ye of little memory, we faced an unknown virus that spread exponentially and had little info to rely on and modelling predicted a huge mortality range. We passed best case scenario of 20,000 but are closer to that than the worst case scenario (half a million?).
Hindsight (via knowledge) is a wonderful thing  | |||
"What I don't understand is that WHO figures show Malaria and TB kill 2.5 people each year.. Yet no lockdown. Covid is real, it kills people as does many many things but has there been an over reaction? I find it very difficult to know what to believe currently. "They do... but generally in countries with very poor medical resource etc. When the final reckoning is out for Covid 19 we’ll see the impact it had in India, Africa, South America etc... I fear the tolls might be horrific. As for over reaction, try outlining how zero lockdown would have panned out to our benefit? How would our health service have survived? How high would have infection rates got? How well would the economy have faired in that scenario? | |||
"Population cull, getting rid of people who may be more vulnerable in some way. maybe natures way of telling us we need a smaller population, lets face it we diserve it, most of the bad things in the world are caused by humans I wasn't referring to nature. tin foil hats on lol Childish reply. People are perfectly entitled to a different opinion to yours. " When people shout out tin foil hats, snowflake, or fab expert, it just means they don't have the info to debate. I'm personally flummoxed at the stories I've heard re the attempt of applying DNRs during the pandemic. It was a disgrace. Is there not an inquiry into it? | |||
"I'm personally flummoxed at the stories I've heard re the attempt of applying DNRs during the pandemic. It was a disgrace. Is there not an inquiry into it? " Also flummoxed, at both covid units I’ve worked at all staff have bent the guidelines to accommodate families and there wishes at all times. Even with some of the very eldest and fragile patients there was zero attempt to force DNRs. | |||
"Or we could go back to normal and invest in health care and hospitals and care homes so that they can cope with a few extra thousand people a year and give the care needed. Educate those that are in at risk catogories and stop - ruining the economy - ruining the lives of all 66 million people in this country - ruining the lives and education of our children - forcing the elderly to pretty much suffer for what could be their last months with us - scaremongering in the press - using naff statistics I’m sorry but the over all impact of this virus is still not actually that bad check world figures of confirmed infection over now 8 months not that high, confirmed deaths not that high. There is and will now be a excess of deaths due to cancer, obisety and dimentia now due to lockdown that is a fact "  And also suicide | |||
"I'm personally flummoxed at the stories I've heard re the attempt of applying DNRs during the pandemic. It was a disgrace. Is there not an inquiry into it? Also flummoxed, at both covid units I’ve worked at all staff have bent the guidelines to accommodate families and there wishes at all times. Even with some of the very eldest and fragile patients there was zero attempt to force DNRs. " Having looked at the NICE guidelines to frailty and the ReSPECT form, it's highly likely there were communication errors over the phones and perhaps failure to follow guidelines. Due to the extreme sensitive nature, I think letters should have been sent to warn of impending phonecall and content and so that patients had the opportunity to discuss with family. If course all of this is time consuming but patient experience, as you know, is an important aspect of NHS philosophy (safety, outcomes and experience). | |||
"What I don't understand is that WHO figures show Malaria and TB kill 2.5 people each year.. Yet no lockdown. Covid is real, it kills people as does many many things but has there been an over reaction? I find it very difficult to know what to believe currently.
You've missed an important word after 2.5 methinks .
As for an over reaction, ye of little memory, we faced an unknown virus that spread exponentially and had little info to rely on and modelling predicted a huge mortality range. We passed best case scenario of 20,000 but are closer to that than the worst case scenario (half a million?).
Hindsight (via knowledge) is a wonderful thing "Oooops.. Thank you for pointing out my error .
As for modelling I'd question that. Is this the same modeling from Imperial College London that predicted 65,000 H1N1 deaths in 2009 and we actually had less than 150? | |||
"What I don't understand is that WHO figures show Malaria and TB kill 2.5 people each year.. Yet no lockdown. Covid is real, it kills people as does many many things but has there been an over reaction? I find it very difficult to know what to believe currently.
You've missed an important word after 2.5 methinks .
As for an over reaction, ye of little memory, we faced an unknown virus that spread exponentially and had little info to rely on and modelling predicted a huge mortality range. We passed best case scenario of 20,000 but are closer to that than the worst case scenario (half a million?).
Hindsight (via knowledge) is a wonderful thing
Oooops.. Thank you for pointing out my error .
As for modelling I'd question that. Is this the same modeling from Imperial College London that predicted 65,000 H1N1 deaths in 2009 and we actually had less than 150?"I imagine that modelling predictions are dependent on information input. I actually have no idea and happy to be enlightened. You know what is factual though? You cannot plan for past measures by using hindsight. You can plan for future measures through obtained knowledge that gives you the hindsight! | |||
"What I don't understand is that WHO figures show Malaria and TB kill 2.5 people each year.. Yet no lockdown. Covid is real, it kills people as does many many things but has there been an over reaction? I find it very difficult to know what to believe currently.
You've missed an important word after 2.5 methinks .
As for an over reaction, ye of little memory, we faced an unknown virus that spread exponentially and had little info to rely on and modelling predicted a huge mortality range. We passed best case scenario of 20,000 but are closer to that than the worst case scenario (half a million?).
Hindsight (via knowledge) is a wonderful thing
Oooops.. Thank you for pointing out my error .
As for modelling I'd question that. Is this the same modeling from Imperial College London that predicted 65,000 H1N1 deaths in 2009 and we actually had less than 150?
I imagine that modelling predictions are dependent on information input. I actually have no idea and happy to be enlightened.
You know what is factual though? You cannot plan for past measures by using hindsight. You can plan for future measures through obtained knowledge that gives you the hindsight! "Very wise words! But not to question and challenge what you are told by your government or those that advise them is folly. | |||
"What I don't understand is that WHO figures show Malaria and TB kill 2.5 people each year.. Yet no lockdown. Covid is real, it kills people as does many many things but has there been an over reaction? I find it very difficult to know what to believe currently.
You've missed an important word after 2.5 methinks .
As for an over reaction, ye of little memory, we faced an unknown virus that spread exponentially and had little info to rely on and modelling predicted a huge mortality range. We passed best case scenario of 20,000 but are closer to that than the worst case scenario (half a million?).
Hindsight (via knowledge) is a wonderful thing
Oooops.. Thank you for pointing out my error .
As for modelling I'd question that. Is this the same modeling from Imperial College London that predicted 65,000 H1N1 deaths in 2009 and we actually had less than 150?
I imagine that modelling predictions are dependent on information input. I actually have no idea and happy to be enlightened.
You know what is factual though? You cannot plan for past measures by using hindsight. You can plan for future measures through obtained knowledge that gives you the hindsight!
Very wise words! But not to question and challenge what you are told by your government or those that advise them is folly. "I distrust all MPs, the majority are self-serving bleeps. I've been educated to critique research and born to question everything (I was an annoying child and an avid book reader - I once aspired to get the entire encyclopedia brittanica - then along came the Internet saving me thousands). | |||
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"What I don't understand is that WHO figures show Malaria and TB kill 2.5 people each year.. Yet no lockdown. Covid is real, it kills people as does many many things but has there been an over reaction? I find it very difficult to know what to believe currently.
You've missed an important word after 2.5 methinks .
As for an over reaction, ye of little memory, we faced an unknown virus that spread exponentially and had little info to rely on and modelling predicted a huge mortality range. We passed best case scenario of 20,000 but are closer to that than the worst case scenario (half a million?).
Hindsight (via knowledge) is a wonderful thing
Oooops.. Thank you for pointing out my error .
As for modelling I'd question that. Is this the same modeling from Imperial College London that predicted 65,000 H1N1 deaths in 2009 and we actually had less than 150?
I imagine that modelling predictions are dependent on information input. I actually have no idea and happy to be enlightened.
You know what is factual though? You cannot plan for past measures by using hindsight. You can plan for future measures through obtained knowledge that gives you the hindsight!
Very wise words! But not to question and challenge what you are told by your government or those that advise them is folly.
I distrust all MPs, the majority are self-serving bleeps.
I've been educated to critique research and born to question everything (I was an annoying child and an avid book reader - I once aspired to get the entire encyclopedia brittanica - then along came the Internet saving me thousands). "
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"I wonder how many of those who say “they would have died anyway “ have lost someone close to Covid. It's easy to be callous when it does not affect you. I am currently in a situation where - 2 grandparents are very ill and have both had appointments and operations that they very much need cancelled - I know 22 people who have lost the jobs - I have a very close old relative who has got down hill fast due to lockdown as they have not been able to go about normal business - a nephew whose mental state is in taters due to lock down - I am at risk of losing my job and therefore my home - neighbours 3 doors down have lost their business and their home - I still do not know anyone who has tested positive for covid 19 - is till four not know anyone who has died from Covid 19 - we have a very close family friend ( 60 ) cancer diagnosed late as he appointments where cancelled. He now has been given only months to live having been told if they had caught it 4 weeks earlier he would have years Where are the positives there??? Lockdown has only slowed Covid 19 through out the summer months which actually means it will have a much more sever impact on the health system through out the winter months. Do you not think lockdown has saved lives?" erm no I think it has ruined and cost lives | |||
"Population cull, getting rid of people who may be more vulnerable in some way. maybe natures way of telling us we need a smaller population, lets face it we diserve it, most of the bad things in the world are caused by humans I wasn't referring to nature. tin foil hats on lol Childish reply. People are perfectly entitled to a different opinion to yours. When people shout out tin foil hats, snowflake, or fab expert, it just means they don't have the info to debate. I'm personally flummoxed at the stories I've heard re the attempt of applying DNRs during the pandemic. It was a disgrace. Is there not an inquiry into it? " Thankyou, I think people need to dig a bit deeper and start questioning things as the numbers aren't adding up. Tin foil hat remarks etc are really childish responses when they actually have nothing constructive to add to the debate. As for the DNR, it's the first I've heard of it today, but they can add anything they want to under the guise of covid it would seem and people either don't know or won't question it. These are also generally the tin foil hat remarkers too. | |||
"I wonder how many of those who say “they would have died anyway “ have lost someone close to Covid. It's easy to be callous when it does not affect you. I am currently in a situation where - 2 grandparents are very ill and have both had appointments and operations that they very much need cancelled - I know 22 people who have lost the jobs - I have a very close old relative who has got down hill fast due to lockdown as they have not been able to go about normal business - a nephew whose mental state is in taters due to lock down - I am at risk of losing my job and therefore my home - neighbours 3 doors down have lost their business and their home - I still do not know anyone who has tested positive for covid 19 - is till four not know anyone who has died from Covid 19 - we have a very close family friend ( 60 ) cancer diagnosed late as he appointments where cancelled. He now has been given only months to live having been told if they had caught it 4 weeks earlier he would have years Where are the positives there??? Lockdown has only slowed Covid 19 through out the summer months which actually means it will have a much more sever impact on the health system through out the winter months. Do you not think lockdown has saved lives? erm no I think it has ruined and cost lives " Probably more lives lost through non covid health problems than covid by now due to treatments being delayed. | |||
"Probably more lives lost through non covid health problems than covid by now due to treatments being delayed. " What makes you say that, there’s about 20k surplus deaths and 45k covid deaths which seems to suggest the statement can’t be right? | |||
"I wonder how many of those who say “they would have died anyway “ have lost someone close to Covid. It's easy to be callous when it does not affect you. I am currently in a situation where - 2 grandparents are very ill and have both had appointments and operations that they very much need cancelled - I know 22 people who have lost the jobs - I have a very close old relative who has got down hill fast due to lockdown as they have not been able to go about normal business - a nephew whose mental state is in taters due to lock down - I am at risk of losing my job and therefore my home - neighbours 3 doors down have lost their business and their home - I still do not know anyone who has tested positive for covid 19 - is till four not know anyone who has died from Covid 19 - we have a very close family friend ( 60 ) cancer diagnosed late as he appointments where cancelled. He now has been given only months to live having been told if they had caught it 4 weeks earlier he would have years Where are the positives there??? Lockdown has only slowed Covid 19 through out the summer months which actually means it will have a much more sever impact on the health system through out the winter months. " “..... Where are the positives there??? Lockdown has only slowed Covid 19....” ——————————- Locking down to slow covid is a positive. And if we didn’t slow it down it could have caused problems worse than some of what you’ve listed above. | |||
"https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8574317/Lockdown-caused-21-000-extra-deaths-reduced-access-healthcare.html More and more articles and science backing the fact that lockdown actually has killed as many people as it has saved if not more. With the long term impact even worse on non Covid related deaths. Daily mail I know but hundreds of scientific papers out there now suggesting the same. Lockdown was 10% wrong and illegal. I can not believe the negative impact it will have on this country for at least the next 10 years and almost certainly a lot longer impact on children aged between 3 and 18 " I think logic is getting turned on its head when common sense luckily tells us otherwise. Need to think outside of the money making business side of life.... There was no answer other than lockdown to flatten the curve when we did , but should have locked down 2 weeks earlier | |||
