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Moral Maze . . . We were just in IKEA and
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By *atEvolution OP Couple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke |
a young girl (about 15 yo) fainted right in front of us, luckily she came around right away with no obvious problems - she just said she was having trouble standing still in the Q's for so long.
We asked her if it had happened before and she said that it does when she doesn't eat, but she's had it forever.
Anyways - she's fine, but . . .
It set us chatting about what if she had needed resus' etc. In normal circumstances we would not have hesitated (and I think that when all said and done we would have in this situation too)
There are obvious questions about infection in both directions - but still I think rather than risk her life directly I have gone for it and done what we were trained to do.
You?
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By *ohn KanakaMan
over a year ago
Not all that North of North London |
I would rather live with the risk of infection having done CPR (no way I'd do mouth to mouth) than live with the guilt and arguably shame of not having done anything. I couldn't look myself in the eye if I did that let alone a bereaved family |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"I would rather live with the risk of infection having done CPR (no way I'd do mouth to mouth) than live with the guilt and arguably shame of not having done anything. I couldn't look myself in the eye if I did that let alone a bereaved family "
No muck point doing chest compressions without mouth to mouth , people need a heartbeat and oxygen.
I wouldn’t think twice, someone’s live vs catching a cold ? If she was a bit older and fit I wouldn’t even wait for her to pass out |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"Are there any covid guidelines for First Aiders?"
Yes the advice from agencies is put a towel on their face before doing the primary survey or chest compressions and don’t do mouth to mouth. They have to say that because we live in a litigious world. The risks were there before , it’s never been compulsory to save someone's life , even at work |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No muck point doing chest compressions without mouth to mouth , people need a heartbeat and oxygen "
Not true
Unless specifically trained, you should do hands only CPR.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/first-aid/cpr/ |
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By *ohn KanakaMan
over a year ago
Not all that North of North London |
"I would rather live with the risk of infection having done CPR (no way I'd do mouth to mouth) than live with the guilt and arguably shame of not having done anything. I couldn't look myself in the eye if I did that let alone a bereaved family
No muck point doing chest compressions without mouth to mouth , people need a heartbeat and oxygen.
I wouldn’t think twice, someone’s live vs catching a cold ? If she was a bit older and fit I wouldn’t even wait for her to pass out "
Having been trained in CPR there was no focus on mouth to mouth |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"No muck point doing chest compressions without mouth to mouth , people need a heartbeat and oxygen
Not true
Unless specifically trained, you should do hands only CPR.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/first-aid/cpr/"
Great advice from the gov as usual skips out the most important part of how to clear the airways and promote normal breathing and the part about belly the elephant , you ever tried counting 100-120 bpm while saving a life ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Instinct would have taken over and without a second thought I would resuscitate.
I do have a one use sterilised mouth guard with me all the time and although I know it’s a risk with covid still.....
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"I would rather live with the risk of infection having done CPR (no way I'd do mouth to mouth) than live with the guilt and arguably shame of not having done anything. I couldn't look myself in the eye if I did that let alone a bereaved family
No muck point doing chest compressions without mouth to mouth , people need a heartbeat and oxygen.
I wouldn’t think twice, someone’s live vs catching a cold ? If she was a bit older and fit I wouldn’t even wait for her to pass out
Having been trained in CPR there was no focus on mouth to mouth"
You never got to blow up the plastic doll while singing nelly the elephant ? What training did you do ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"a young girl (about 15 yo) fainted right in front of us, luckily she came around right away with no obvious problems - she just said she was having trouble standing still in the Q's for so long.
We asked her if it had happened before and she said that it does when she doesn't eat, but she's had it forever.
Anyways - she's fine, but . . .
It set us chatting about what if she had needed resus' etc. In normal circumstances we would not have hesitated (and I think that when all said and done we would have in this situation too)
There are obvious questions about infection in both directions - but still I think rather than risk her life directly I have gone for it and done what we were trained to do.
You?
"
You are able to. Obtain a resusi-sheild to carry with you. It's in a packet the size of a condom.
But I for. One wouldn't hesitate to give resus providing the environment is safe to do so.
No point in becoming a casualty as well.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I would rather live with the risk of infection having done CPR (no way I'd do mouth to mouth) than live with the guilt and arguably shame of not having done anything. I couldn't look myself in the eye if I did that let alone a bereaved family
No muck point doing chest compressions without mouth to mouth , people need a heartbeat and oxygen.
I wouldn’t think twice, someone’s live vs catching a cold ? If she was a bit older and fit I wouldn’t even wait for her to pass out
Having been trained in CPR there was no focus on mouth to mouth
You never got to blow up the plastic doll while singing nelly the elephant ? What training did you do ? "
Nope but I have to Stay in Alive and Another one bits the Dust |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I would rather live with the risk of infection having done CPR (no way I'd do mouth to mouth) than live with the guilt and arguably shame of not having done anything. I couldn't look myself in the eye if I did that let alone a bereaved family
No muck point doing chest compressions without mouth to mouth , people need a heartbeat and oxygen.
I wouldn’t think twice, someone’s live vs catching a cold ? If she was a bit older and fit I wouldn’t even wait for her to pass out
Having been trained in CPR there was no focus on mouth to mouth
You never got to blow up the plastic doll while singing nelly the elephant ? What training did you do ? "
I did refresh training weeks ago and for a adult the rescue breaths are far less important than quality compressions.
And if you look on resus.org and the specific chain of survival rescue breaths on adults are not mentioned.
With paediatrics it’s advised to give rescue breaths. |
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By * and BCouple
over a year ago
Durham |
"I would rather live with the risk of infection having done CPR (no way I'd do mouth to mouth) than live with the guilt and arguably shame of not having done anything. I couldn't look myself in the eye if I did that let alone a bereaved family
No muck point doing chest compressions without mouth to mouth , people need a heartbeat and oxygen.
I wouldn’t think twice, someone’s live vs catching a cold ? If she was a bit older and fit I wouldn’t even wait for her to pass out
Having been trained in CPR there was no focus on mouth to mouth
You never got to blow up the plastic doll while singing nelly the elephant ? What training did you do ? "
Trained in CPR old regs and now new regs. The advice for a few years now is no mouth to mouth, its not a new thing |
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Mouth to mouth has not been part of the resuscitation process for many years now, correct chest compressions are all that's needed.
I would use a mask if it were available (as per the resus councils advice), having done MTM twice in the distant past, I can tell you that pinching the nose shut produces snot.
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OP you look fit in every sense of the word, do you consider yourself at risk if you caught it? Perhaps the fact that fewer than 1 in 4000 currently have it and your minimal chance of a poor outcome if you did catch, it would make cpr and mouth to mouth the right thing to do. |
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By *atEvolution OP Couple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke |
"OP you look fit in every sense of the word, do you consider yourself at risk if you caught it? Perhaps the fact that fewer than 1 in 4000 currently have it and your minimal chance of a poor outcome if you did catch, it would make cpr and mouth to mouth the right thing to do."
We considered the final risks and thought yea we would still do mouth-to-mouth. Like another poster said. Just wouldn't sleep nights. Have ordered one time mouth shields from Amazon.  |
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By *BWarksCouple
over a year ago
warwick |
"a young girl (about 15 yo) fainted right in front of us, luckily she came around right away with no obvious problems - she just said she was having trouble standing still in the Q's for so long.
We asked her if it had happened before and she said that it does when she doesn't eat, but she's had it forever.
Anyways - she's fine, but . . .
It set us chatting about what if she had needed resus' etc. In normal circumstances we would not have hesitated (and I think that when all said and done we would have in this situation too)
There are obvious questions about infection in both directions - but still I think rather than risk her life directly I have gone for it and done what we were trained to do.
You?
"
I’d have helped her in whatever way was required |
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There's pretty strong evidence that good quality chest compressions far more important than mouth to mouth as the compressions do result in a degree of ventilation as well.
The hard bit is that the chest compressions are aerosol generating hence increasing transmission risk which is why resus council UK has suggested shock only and no compressions until those resuscitating are in full PPE... Realistically not going to happen in IKEA type situation which leaves people in a really shitty situation |
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"OP you look fit in every sense of the word, do you consider yourself at risk if you caught it? Perhaps the fact that fewer than 1 in 4000 currently have it and your minimal chance of a poor outcome if you did catch, it would make cpr and mouth to mouth the right thing to do.
We considered the final risks and thought yea we would still do mouth-to-mouth. Like another poster said. Just wouldn't sleep nights. Have ordered one time mouth shields from Amazon. "
Would those mouth shields serve a dual purpose when your fantastic club reopens or is the hole too small for most  |
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By *eeBee67Man
over a year ago
Masked and Distant |
Did refresher first aid fairly recently.
M2M even before covid was discouraged unless you had a "barrier" you have no idea what diseases the "casualty" has.
Chest compressions automatically transfer some air in and out of the lungs, a beating heart is more important.
And I have a m2m barrier with me at all times in a pouch on my keys, if someone needed it, I would do it. |
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By *atEvolution OP Couple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke |
"OP you look fit in every sense of the word, do you consider yourself at risk if you caught it? Perhaps the fact that fewer than 1 in 4000 currently have it and your minimal chance of a poor outcome if you did catch, it would make cpr and mouth to mouth the right thing to do.
We considered the final risks and thought yea we would still do mouth-to-mouth. Like another poster said. Just wouldn't sleep nights. Have ordered one time mouth shields from Amazon.
Would those mouth shields serve a dual purpose when your fantastic club reopens or is the hole too small for most "
Lol. They have a non return valve on the to first-aider side.
You could faint and try it |
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By *eeleyWoman
over a year ago
Dudley |
"I would rather live with the risk of infection having done CPR (no way I'd do mouth to mouth) than live with the guilt and arguably shame of not having done anything. I couldn't look myself in the eye if I did that let alone a bereaved family
No muck point doing chest compressions without mouth to mouth , people need a heartbeat and oxygen.
I wouldn’t think twice, someone’s live vs catching a cold ? If she was a bit older and fit I wouldn’t even wait for her to pass out
Having been trained in CPR there was no focus on mouth to mouth
You never got to blow up the plastic doll while singing nelly the elephant ? What training did you do ?
Nope but I have to Stay in Alive and Another one bits the Dust"
Yep, I learned chest compressions to the beat of staying alive. We were taught mouth to mouth but we were told the chest compressions were the main thing. |
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Being such a young age I would try my best to save her life
Mind you any age I couldn't sit back or walk by,whilst anybody was suffering or could die
Adrenaline always takes over
This would be a sad society if we all thought 'we might catch something' that could be us or our own family member needing help one day
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I have a resuscitation face shield which I always carry on my key chain, got it the last time I did a first aid course, only cost about £3. It's meant to help protect both of us from transmitting vivid. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"a young girl (about 15 yo) fainted right in front of us, luckily she came around right away with no obvious problems - she just said she was having trouble standing still in the Q's for so long.
We asked her if it had happened before and she said that it does when she doesn't eat, but she's had it forever.
Anyways - she's fine, but . . .
It set us chatting about what if she had needed resus' etc. In normal circumstances we would not have hesitated (and I think that when all said and done we would have in this situation too)
There are obvious questions about infection in both directions - but still I think rather than risk her life directly I have gone for it and done what we were trained to do.
You?
"
Just do compressions, that is the training for someone outside a clinical area. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"OP you look fit in every sense of the word, do you consider yourself at risk if you caught it? Perhaps the fact that fewer than 1 in 4000 currently have it and your minimal chance of a poor outcome if you did catch, it would make cpr and mouth to mouth the right thing to do."
No it wouldn't. No-one is advised to do mouth to mouth without protection, but one is more likely to do so with a child. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"OP you look fit in every sense of the word, do you consider yourself at risk if you caught it? Perhaps the fact that fewer than 1 in 4000 currently have it and your minimal chance of a poor outcome if you did catch, it would make cpr and mouth to mouth the right thing to do.
No it wouldn't. No-one is advised to do mouth to mouth without protection, but one is more likely to do so with a child. "
The last first aid course I did was back in 2008 and they were advising to just do chest compressions back then. |
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The biggest problem is often people all standing around assuming that someone else is going to do something.
Once you've done it for real, it becomes an automatic response and I always have a disposable resuscitation shield in my wallet.
No hesitation here.  |
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"
The last first aid course I did was back in 2008 and they were advising to just do chest compressions back then.
"
Yep.
The old 2 breaths and 15 compressions routine was exhausting for most people if you were on your own and had to do it for longer than 5 mins.
Far better to circulate what's there than fill the lungs with air and not get it circulated. |
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By *ENGUYMan
over a year ago
Hull |
"The biggest problem is often people all standing around assuming that someone else is going to do something.
Once you've done it for real, it becomes an automatic response and I always have a disposable resuscitation shield in my wallet.
No hesitation here. "
Same here. I always carry a mouth shield with me, plus there are a couple in work First Aid boxes. |
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By *reya73Woman
over a year ago
Whitley Bay |
Absolutely help. My son is 15.. I'd want someone to step in if he was ever in need.
And.. It wouldn't be 'wrong' in that situation to hesitate or prefer hand over to the staff first aiders. In those circumstances we do what we do and make the call in the situation. |
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Two things you can learn from this thread.
One is that forums on the internet are not the place to get advice on anything that matters.
The other is that first aid training and re-accreditation is a fucking shambles, with too many competing qualifications, too much specialization, and too many for profit training providers.
Oh, and Op? Like other posters I too have a face shield on my key ring, I'd step in, and whether I used the method I picked up on my first aid at work course, or my first aid for sports coaches courses, or that I learned at the st johns course my mam inssisted I did when I was 16, it would be better than the outcome from greeting on about the risk from covid. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Two things you can learn from this thread.
One is that forums on the internet are not the place to get advice on anything that matters.
The other is that first aid training and re-accreditation is a fucking shambles, with too many competing qualifications, too much specialization, and too many for profit training providers.
Oh, and Op? Like other posters I too have a face shield on my key ring, I'd step in, and whether I used the method I picked up on my first aid at work course, or my first aid for sports coaches courses, or that I learned at the st johns course my mam inssisted I did when I was 16, it would be better than the outcome from greeting on about the risk from covid."
https://www.resus.org.uk/
This is the official site.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Recommended to start compressions.
To do something is better than nothing.
Its better to circulate the blood as it will still be carrying oxygen. Majority of adults is cardiac related rather than respiratory.. so start the heart |
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"
One is that forums on the internet are not the place to get advice on anything that matters.
"
Well the common theme with most of the responses is that doing something is good.
If just one person reading this goes away and remembers that, then it's been a very worthwhile thread.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I would rather live with the risk of infection having done CPR (no way I'd do mouth to mouth) than live with the guilt and arguably shame of not having done anything. I couldn't look myself in the eye if I did that let alone a bereaved family
No muck point doing chest compressions without mouth to mouth , people need a heartbeat and oxygen.
I wouldn’t think twice, someone’s live vs catching a cold ? If she was a bit older and fit I wouldn’t even wait for her to pass out
Having been trained in CPR there was no focus on mouth to mouth"
Having just done my STCW to work on a ship you are trained to do CPR which includes mouth to mouth.
Personally I would have no issue doing CPR if someone needed it, with the only 1 in 4000 people currently having Covid I think the odds are rather in my favour |
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I’m no longer qualified as it’s been a few years since my last refresher, but I am trained in first aid. For the last 10 years we were told that mouth to mouth is a judgement call and that chest compressions are the most important part
Regardless of the age of the person, I would even now, not hesitate to try and help, only handing over if someone was more qualified or more recently accredited.
I would never be able to forgive myself if I didn’t try |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
One is that forums on the internet are not the place to get advice on anything that matters.
Well the common theme with most of the responses is that doing something is good.
If just one person reading this goes away and remembers that, then it's been a very worthwhile thread.
"
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By *atEvolution OP Couple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke |
"
One is that forums on the internet are not the place to get advice on anything that matters.
Well the common theme with most of the responses is that doing something is good.
If just one person reading this goes away and remembers that, then it's been a very worthwhile thread.
"
I've had a few writing too asking what the mouth shields are . . . search Amazon for 'CPR Face Shields'.
Thanks everyone for contributing.  |
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By *BCambsCouple
over a year ago
Biggleswade |
You really do not need mouth shields.
Mouth to mouth is honestly not taught anymore. Decent chest compressions act on the heart and lungs, like a bellows.
Keep your mouth off others!
(Now that's not something I thought I would say on Fabs!) |
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By *ikilovesCCouple
over a year ago
village life, closest main town inverness |
We've been taught the same as ABCambs above.
It's better to keep doing chest compression's than stop and switch to M2M.
.
Anyway, yes we would do the same as you Op
and do whatever needed doing, good on you |
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By *atEvolution OP Couple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke |
"We've been taught the same as ABCambs above.
It's better to keep doing chest compression's than stop and switch to M2M.
.
Anyway, yes we would do the same as you Op
and do whatever needed doing, good on you "
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You really do not need mouth shields.
Mouth to mouth is honestly not taught anymore. Decent chest compressions act on the heart and lungs, like a bellows.
Keep your mouth off others!
(Now that's not something I thought I would say on Fabs!)"
But mouth to mouth is still taught. It was on the course I was on in November |
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Not sure what courses you all have taken, however there is no need to do mouth to mouth and the chest press is also highly effective.
This is because there is enough oxygen in the blood.
Also, places like Ikea are obliged to have a defibrillator. However you must be trained to use it. |
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"You really do not need mouth shields.
Mouth to mouth is honestly not taught anymore. Decent chest compressions act on the heart and lungs, like a bellows.
Keep your mouth off others!
(Now that's not something I thought I would say on Fabs!)
But mouth to mouth is still taught. It was on the course I was on in November "
Who by? The Resus Council and all HCPs in all trusts are explicitly told not to unless some sort of device is available. It's simply unnecessary and very easy to get wrong. Wasting time trying to do it is worse than not doing it. |
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"Not sure what courses you all have taken, however there is no need to do mouth to mouth and the chest press is also highly effective.
This is because there is enough oxygen in the blood.
Also, places like Ikea are obliged to have a defibrillator. However you must be trained to use it."
St John's ambulance in March.
And agree to disagree on training for the defibrillator. Most modern ones are designed with instruction so anyone, even the non trained can use them. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not sure what courses you all have taken, however there is no need to do mouth to mouth and the chest press is also highly effective.
This is because there is enough oxygen in the blood.
Also, places like Ikea are obliged to have a defibrillator. However you must be trained to use it.
St John's ambulance in March.
And agree to disagree on training for the defibrillator. Most modern ones are designed with instruction so anyone, even the non trained can use them."
Defibs are there for anyone to use and most give audible instructions as you use them.
I've also been taught to keep doing mouth to mouth inside the last year and will be again next month. If you don't know what you're doing don't do it, if you do then do. Paramedics will bag the person on arrival which does the same thing, if there was no point this would not be done either.
It may be different in an inner city but a wait of 30-40 mins here is not unusual, by fuck cpr begins to hurt when you get anywhere near that length of time even for teams of two rotating breaths to compressions but if you don't breath for them all the compressions in the world won't stop brain damage.
NHS website right now lists two types of cpr, for the second it states;
CPR with rescue breaths
If you have been trained in CPR, including rescue breaths, and feel confident using your skills, you should give chest compressions with rescue breaths.
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