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Could poverty kill more than covid19 would have
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"Poverty leads to alcoholism, drug abuse, worse diets, increased risk of suicide etc
Could these end up killing more that the virus would have? "
Well poverty killed a lot before the virus came along
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By *orny PTMan
over a year ago
Peterborough |
Pasteur, Lister, Basselgette are the three big names that spring to mind, when it comes to public health.
The adage goes like this...who has saved more lives, military, medicine, engineers, nutritionists, politicians?
Plumbers: as they with the help of engineers, provide clean water, hot water, heat and sewage removal.
Just look at the developing world and see what they are missing. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Poverty kills full stop, regardless of what happening now, it will be factor for making the death toll high unfortunately, as we have seem some of the issues with cut backs are effecting how we can better deal with this virus, just as poverty kills so does greed  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Poverty leads to alcoholism, drug abuse, worse diets, increased risk of suicide etc
Could these end up killing more that the virus would have? "
Poverty has been killing people for a very long time. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Poverty leads to alcoholism, drug abuse, worse diets, increased risk of suicide etc
Could these end up killing more that the virus would have? Poverty has been killing people for a very long time. "
So have different virus's |
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"Poverty leads to alcoholism, drug abuse, worse diets, increased risk of suicide etc
Could these end up killing more that the virus would have? "
Survivors guilt. Alot of heartbroken people out there too. It might not be immediate, more of a slow killer.
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"Poverty leads to alcoholism, drug abuse, worse diets, increased risk of suicide etc
Could these end up killing more that the virus would have? "
Yes, we have 6,000 - 7,000 suicide deaths in a normal year. Far more people under 40 will die from suicide than coronavirus this year. The government support is bollocks, useless for the majority of the population that aren't employees in stable jobs. Millions of people are seeing their life savings and work essentially stolen from them. If you thought inequality was bad before coronavirus then post-corona it's a world where the banks and landlords have swallowed up a tonne of small businesses. Theft on a scale that Stalin would have admired.
I'm sick of the smug line that staying home saves lives, it also kills people just in different ways. |
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A tricky one to answer, I think, and something I'm sure the decision makers grapple with.
I am aware that poverty kills people. Most people are aware of that, I suppose. I don't know how many, usually, nor do I know how many extra people might die as a result of a given amount of economic damage. It's the latter that's important, as well as how big the economic damage might be.
I don't know how big the economic damage might be, but I thought it might be useful to look at the last time we suffered a big economic downturn - the 2008 financial crash - to at least get an idea of ball-park numbers.
A british medical journal paper estimated the number of extra deaths due to the austerity measures put into place after that crash.
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/11/e017722
Breaking it down into a per-year number, it looks like 10,000-ish per year (a little bit over). The effects, of course, lasted for many years (some would argue that we were only just getting over them when this all started). The headline figure over the whole time period was then 120,000 deaths caused by extra financial difficulties caused by a damaged economy (spread over 11-12 years).
So I guess it is true that the number of deaths from an upcoming economic bust due to lockdown could be more than the number of deaths from the virus - *if we stay in lockdown*.
Of course if you use that as an argument not to be in lockdown then you have to compare the number of deaths from economic damage to the expected number of deaths from the virus without using our main suppression tool. In that case the guess is that about 50% of people will get it and about 1% of those will die. Possibly more of our hospitals become overloaded, which seems likely without controlling the virus. That number comes out at about 350,000 or so and would presumably come with some economic damage of its own.
It's not an easy decision to make. |
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Unlikely, imo. Not so many that it'll be seen as an issue anyway.
We aren't a 3rd world country where the majority of us are living off nothing much and don't have access to clean water. And, at this time, even the poorest of our society will be able to access health care if it's needed.
Long term poverty is a huge threat to health though, it causes all sorts of complications physically to a body, not just social issues and mental health problems. It doesn't just kill many outright, it causes conditions that make someones quality of life poor and it can be years or decades before they die an early death.
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"Unlikely, imo. Not so many that it'll be seen as an issue anyway.
We aren't a 3rd world country where the majority of us are living off nothing much and don't have access to clean water. And, at this time, even the poorest of our society will be able to access health care if it's needed.
Long term poverty is a huge threat to health though, it causes all sorts of complications physically to a body, not just social issues and mental health problems. It doesn't just kill many outright, it causes conditions that make someones quality of life poor and it can be years or decades before they die an early death.
"
Not necessarily arguing with you, but for under 34 year olds, suicide kills almost as much as every other cause of death combined. So it depends on the correlation between suicide and poverty, which I don't know but I've never heard someone say that financial ruin and debt collectors at the door improved their quality of life. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yes.
But a heart attack here, a sucide there... Didn't really have any political issue... But something that a government can be blamed for....
As Peter Kay might say.... "It's spitting, it's spitting ... Everyone in" |
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By *itty9899Man
over a year ago
Craggy Island |
"Poverty leads to alcoholism, drug abuse, worse diets, increased risk of suicide etc
Could these end up killing more that the virus would have? "
So could be shut off from society for god's knows how long. |
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"A tricky one to answer, I think, and something I'm sure the decision makers grapple with.
I am aware that poverty kills people. Most people are aware of that, I suppose. I don't know how many, usually, nor do I know how many extra people might die as a result of a given amount of economic damage. It's the latter that's important, as well as how big the economic damage might be.
I don't know how big the economic damage might be, but I thought it might be useful to look at the last time we suffered a big economic downturn - the 2008 financial crash - to at least get an idea of ball-park numbers.
A british medical journal paper estimated the number of extra deaths due to the austerity measures put into place after that crash.
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/11/e017722
Breaking it down into a per-year number, it looks like 10,000-ish per year (a little bit over). The effects, of course, lasted for many years (some would argue that we were only just getting over them when this all started). The headline figure over the whole time period was then 120,000 deaths caused by extra financial difficulties caused by a damaged economy (spread over 11-12 years).
So I guess it is true that the number of deaths from an upcoming economic bust due to lockdown could be more than the number of deaths from the virus - *if we stay in lockdown*.
Of course if you use that as an argument not to be in lockdown then you have to compare the number of deaths from economic damage to the expected number of deaths from the virus without using our main suppression tool. In that case the guess is that about 50% of people will get it and about 1% of those will die. Possibly more of our hospitals become overloaded, which seems likely without controlling the virus. That number comes out at about 350,000 or so and would presumably come with some economic damage of its own.
It's not an easy decision to make."
In the last few years,in certain parts of the country,life expectancy was actually going down for the 1st time in a 100 years |
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"Unlikely, imo. Not so many that it'll be seen as an issue anyway.
We aren't a 3rd world country where the majority of us are living off nothing much and don't have access to clean water. And, at this time, even the poorest of our society will be able to access health care if it's needed.
Long term poverty is a huge threat to health though, it causes all sorts of complications physically to a body, not just social issues and mental health problems. It doesn't just kill many outright, it causes conditions that make someones quality of life poor and it can be years or decades before they die an early death.
Not necessarily arguing with you, but for under 34 year olds, suicide kills almost as much as every other cause of death combined. So it depends on the correlation between suicide and poverty, which I don't know but I've never heard someone say that financial ruin and debt collectors at the door improved their quality of life. "
A lot of studies mention that avoidable, or preventable, deaths are highest in areas of depravation. This links poverty to deaths that are premature.
I'd say the main type of poverty we have here is not one that kills you instantaneously that's all. And i am doubting that covid19 will do anything much to change the statistics we already have.
We all saw the initial panic when there was first talks of a new deadly virus, and it didn't take too long for measures to be put in place to counteract that.
We may see a rise in long term poverty but i am also doubting this too. Six weeks wait for universal credit isn't long term poverty, long term usually starts in childhood and goes on for most of someones life. Right now many are able to continue as they were, the one million new claims for benefits is a lot though and benefits aren't generous but even a year on them is still only one year in poverty and not long term.
Often with suicide there are multiple factors in why the person ended their life, same for addictions. Maybe the covid19 will push some over the edge but i also don't think this will happen on any noticeable scale.
Just my opinons. I'm not psychic so will have to wait and see but i'm being fairly optimistic here. |
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"Poverty leads to alcoholism, drug abuse, worse diets, increased risk of suicide etc
Could these end up killing more that the virus would have?
It probably already has this year  "
Yep, like 7-900 people a day dieing is acceptable.
No bother |
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"Poverty leads to alcoholism, drug abuse, worse diets, increased risk of suicide etc
Could these end up killing more that the virus would have?
It probably already has this year
Yep, like 7-900 people a day dieing is acceptable.
No bother"
1,643 people die on a normal day |
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By *essie.Woman
over a year ago
Serendipity |
Social harm is a big killer due to the inequalities already in our society. There will be increased poverty following lockdown and lots of people were already struggling. There will be more deaths from it. |
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"Poverty leads to alcoholism, drug abuse, worse diets, increased risk of suicide etc
Could these end up killing more that the virus would have?
Yes, we have 6,000 - 7,000 suicide deaths in a normal year. Far more people under 40 will die from suicide than coronavirus this year. The government support is bollocks, useless for the majority of the population that aren't employees in stable jobs. Millions of people are seeing their life savings and work essentially stolen from them. If you thought inequality was bad before coronavirus then post-corona it's a world where the banks and landlords have swallowed up a tonne of small businesses. Theft on a scale that Stalin would have admired.
I'm sick of the smug line that staying home saves lives, it also kills people just in different ways. "
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"6000 extra deaths in March, above and beyond the norm, only 3500 ish directly attributed to Covid. What caused the remainder of extras then?"
According to scientists (or maybe only one, idk the bbc website doesn't cite anyone) many of these deaths were people who would have died this year anyway. So later on in the year figures will pan out. |
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FFs some scientists were quoted.
Also: Prof Robert Dingwall from Nottingham Trent University says there will certainly be "collateral damage" from other factors such as:
mental health problems and suicides linked to self-isolation
heart problems from lack of activity
the impact on health from increased unemployment and reduced living standards
And summat about a financial crash similar to 2008s one. I don't even remember being affected by that luckily. |
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It's a very difficult situation ,the likes of which have never been seen by pretty much everyone alive today. If you use the Spanish flu pandemic as a guide as to what can happen if you let things run there course,that is no social distance or isolation,the only way around it as I see it would be to issue nation wide testing,isolate those who test positive,and get the country moving again as the economic repercussions that entails will last 3 generations if we don't. This virus is an example of Darwinism at its finest ,the weak will perish the strong will survive that's the brutal truth of it. |
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