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British medical association

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By *uttyjonn OP Man over a year ago

SEA

The BMA are in the press regarding the lack of PPE for doctors, which is scandalous

But I think they should be naming hospitals who are lacking any equipment

The generic comments just feed trolls and easy headlines

Is there a reason they don't name hospitals or is this so widespread it's all of them?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The BMA are in the press regarding the lack of PPE for doctors, which is scandalous

But I think they should be naming hospitals who are lacking any equipment

The generic comments just feed trolls and easy headlines

Is there a reason they don't name hospitals or is this so widespread it's all of them? "

I would like to know how many of the millions of masks that Hancock has said they sent out are to at least FFP2 grade...as I have a feeling that most will be the surgical paper face masks which has very little protection for the wearer.

I know! ...I'm very sceptical.

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"The BMA are in the press regarding the lack of PPE for doctors, which is scandalous

But I think they should be naming hospitals who are lacking any equipment

The generic comments just feed trolls and easy headlines

Is there a reason they don't name hospitals or is this so widespread it's all of them?

I know! ...I'm very sceptical."

Can you wear the ppe for an entire shift?or are there different types?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The BMA are in the press regarding the lack of PPE for doctors, which is scandalous

But I think they should be naming hospitals who are lacking any equipment

The generic comments just feed trolls and easy headlines

Is there a reason they don't name hospitals or is this so widespread it's all of them?

I know! ...I'm very sceptical.

Can you wear the ppe for an entire shift?or are there different types?"

There are different types/grades of masks depending on patients covid status and what procedure you are carrying out

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The BMA are in the press regarding the lack of PPE for doctors, which is scandalous

But I think they should be naming hospitals who are lacking any equipment

The generic comments just feed trolls and easy headlines

Is there a reason they don't name hospitals or is this so widespread it's all of them?

I know! ...I'm very sceptical.

Can you wear the ppe for an entire shift?or are there different types?"

I would say you could wear a FFP2 or 3 mask for the full day without taking it off....that being not to eat or drink...and dare I say smoke in said day as once it's off its contaminated

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By *uttyjonn OP Man over a year ago

SEA

I know! ...I'm very sceptical."

I agree , last week at the briefing they said they had 90 million (or something like that) pieces of PPE but this is meaningless if it's empty soap dispensers

I would like to hear specifics, I think the BMA should be giving more information out to support their members

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

My mates brothers sisters wife who is a nurse said they are being sent black bin bags and Juan Sheet kitchen roll for masks....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I know! ...I'm very sceptical.

I agree , last week at the briefing they said they had 90 million (or something like that) pieces of PPE but this is meaningless if it's empty soap dispensers

I would like to hear specifics, I think the BMA should be giving more information out to support their members "

He does break it down to aprons ,gloves and masks...but in the frontline I think it would be good to know the grades of masks..

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"My mates brothers sisters wife who is a nurse said they are being sent black bin bags and Juan Sheet kitchen roll for masks....

The 2 posters above appear to have some experience.

You obviously know better.

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"The BMA are in the press regarding the lack of PPE for doctors, which is scandalous

But I think they should be naming hospitals who are lacking any equipment

The generic comments just feed trolls and easy headlines

Is there a reason they don't name hospitals or is this so widespread it's all of them?

I know! ...I'm very sceptical.

Can you wear the ppe for an entire shift?or are there different types?

There are different types/grades of masks depending on patients covid status and what procedure you are carrying out"

Cheers.I just saw a clip yesterday and he was talking about not wasting ppe and only using it when it was absolutely necessary..using it for a full shift shift etc and there were a few angry retorts.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The BMA are in the press regarding the lack of PPE for doctors, which is scandalous

But I think they should be naming hospitals who are lacking any equipment

The generic comments just feed trolls and easy headlines

Is there a reason they don't name hospitals or is this so widespread it's all of them?

I know! ...I'm very sceptical.

Can you wear the ppe for an entire shift?or are there different types?

There are different types/grades of masks depending on patients covid status and what procedure you are carrying out

Cheers.I just saw a clip yesterday and he was talking about not wasting ppe and only using it when it was absolutely necessary..using it for a full shift shift etc and there were a few angry retorts.

A 12 hour standard shift is a long time to keep the mask on...and tbh I think a little unrealistic

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By *oredcouple1TV/TS over a year ago

kirkcaldy

The amount of ppe is alot less than they say, a box of gloves is 100 pieces, a roll of useless aprons is 100, divide that and the millions suddenly become an awfull lot less, the ambulance service is wearing flimsy aprons which are meant for a hospital setting, bare arms which contact with patients, not only are they in danger, every patient they meet is

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"The BMA are in the press regarding the lack of PPE for doctors, which is scandalous

But I think they should be naming hospitals who are lacking any equipment

The generic comments just feed trolls and easy headlines

Is there a reason they don't name hospitals or is this so widespread it's all of them?

I know! ...I'm very sceptical.

Can you wear the ppe for an entire shift?or are there different types?

There are different types/grades of masks depending on patients covid status and what procedure you are carrying out

Cheers.I just saw a clip yesterday and he was talking about not wasting ppe and only using it when it was absolutely necessary..using it for a full shift shift etc and there were a few angry retorts.

A 12 hour standard shift is a long time to keep the mask on...and tbh I think a little unrealistic "

Thanks for the info.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

When COVID-19 was only in China and there was a debate about what action we should be taking there were those of the opinion that any preparation for the epidemic would be a waste of resources citing preparations for the swine flu as justification.

So if anything is to blame it is this mentality of labelling responsible action as negativity.

Let us not forget that before COVID-19 hit Italy, people who were worried about what was coming were told they should be wearing tin foil hats.

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By *wisted999Man over a year ago

North Bucks

Been speaking to a paramedic on here for some time. They kit up for each patient in new gear which would make sense outside of a clinical environment I suppose. Some nice lads from the Army are delivering them.

They don’t have a shortage in their trust at the moment but the next one does.

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

"My mates brothers sisters wife who is a nurse said they are being sent black bin bags and Juan Sheet kitchen roll for masks....

The 2 posters above appear to have some experience.

You obviously know better."

Same experience - google and what is available from the news channels .

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By *ools and the brainCouple over a year ago

couple, us we him her.

I bet if the unions got top law firm's involved and started threatening the government with negligence claims the correct PPE would magically appear!

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"My mates brothers sisters wife who is a nurse said they are being sent black bin bags and Juan Sheet kitchen roll for masks....

The 2 posters above appear to have some experience.

You obviously know better.

Same experience - google and what is available from the news channels .

You must know them both.

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

"I bet if the unions got top law firm's involved and started threatening the government with negligence claims the correct PPE would magically appear!"

Is it being reported that the wrong PPe is being sent out?

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

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By *oredcouple1TV/TS over a year ago

kirkcaldy

A bin liner with a hole in it would give far more protection than an ambulance service apron, they where meant for cleaning duties not ppe against a killer virus

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By *oggoneMan over a year ago

Derry

Part of the problem now is simply sourcing equipment, the whole world is chasing the same equipment and prices are crazy. Some manufacturers are making bank and the world is completing against the almighty dollar.

But suggesting that PPE is being wasted by NHS staff is risible projection from the health secretary. It's victim blaming on steroids

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"I bet if the unions got top law firm's involved and started threatening the government with negligence claims the correct PPE would magically appear!"

Could you imagine the criticism they would get.

NHS staff have been 'discouraged 'from speaking to the press.

Once this is all over I wouldnt be surprised to see a spike in those medical negligence claims.

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation."

Yeah I saw a few angry retorts on you tube.

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By *oredcouple1TV/TS over a year ago

kirkcaldy

19 nhs staff dead, that proves the ppe is no good

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation."

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

Weren't NHS or public health giving warnings for medics not to identify specific places where there are problems in the last week or so?

Identifying a location could deter people from attendance, thus driving up greater problems in the community. There have been deaths from people infected who took advice and stayed at home with an infection but if their symptoms persist or worsen, they should get attention. For the public and staff, it's a damned if you do or don't.

The government aren't fully transparent. They're vague, evasivr and just giving a picture that sounds like spin, for much of the time. The unelected Cummings probably has a lot to answer for but won't ever be called to account.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

FFP3 masks are hard to come by as the whole world wants them but it's not rocket science to see how to get the best use of each mask...icopropyl is one way I know of... but I'm just Joe public whereas the government has the use of the top scientists and manufacturers to hand..they need to get their fucking fingers out Now!

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

I dont think anyone is pretending its an easy task but there seems to be a fair degree of spin and misdirection going on (they couldn't name how many nhs staff died yesterday.)

If they came out and criticised the nhs they would lose a lot of support,c)early not all howevet.But he does seem to have angered a lot of people.

Still he is saying now there is enough to go round so that should be the end of it.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?"

We probably don't but the man who is saying that medical professionals are over using PPE told i us recently that "as I speak" lorry loads of equipment was on its way to hospitals and there was no problem. There was even footage of him in his shirt sleeves loading boxes.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"I dont think anyone is pretending its an easy task but there seems to be a fair degree of spin and misdirection going on (they couldn't name how many nhs staff died yesterday.)

If they came out and criticised the nhs they would lose a lot of support,c)early not all howevet.But he does seem to have angered a lot of people.

Still he is saying now there is enough to go round so that should be the end of it."

He has consistently "misspoken" on this subject . I have no faith in anything this man says

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?

Nice little pr stunt

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"I dont think anyone is pretending its an easy task but there seems to be a fair degree of spin and misdirection going on (they couldn't name how many nhs staff died yesterday.)

If they came out and criticised the nhs they would lose a lot of support,c)early not all howevet.But he does seem to have angered a lot of people.

Still he is saying now there is enough to go round so that should be the end of it.

He has consistently "misspoken" on this subject . I have no faith in anything this man says "

I dont particularly.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?

Nice little pr stunt"

What really concerns me is that people fell for it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?

Nice little pr stunt"

And they keep show the same army van being filled with 3M boxes of masks...

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?

Nice little pr stunt

What really concerns me is that people fell for it. "

They are masters of spin and they have the media behind them.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?"

Yes it is huge but we have logistics companies, many with staff on furlough who have the resources and expertise to step in and work in coordination with the military/NHS to get whatever is needed pretty quickly..

Prior to lockdown you could order stuff online and it's there next day, large manufacturing works on just in time components delivered so I don't fully buy it that we still haven't gotten on top of this for it being herculean..

Plus we have several lose family members in the NHS, one was in ICU but isolating and the others are front line..

We have close friends not surprisingly also in that profession and all are saying there are issues with ppe that need addressing..

I know who I believe in relation to this and its not Hancock..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?

Nice little pr stunt

And they keep show the same army van being filled with 3M boxes of masks..."

Are we blaming Matt Hancock for what the news show now too?

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?

I do think the idea that he is criticising medical professionals for wasting ppe is being targeted by the usual media outlets .

He has explained why he said it and exactly what was meant - new guidance about ppe.

Why don’t the media help, do their bit, in a positive way and get the important information out there instead of hindering the process by interpreting it in a way that diverts away from the real message .

Here’s the new guidance ...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-personal-protective-equipment-ppe-guidance-for-nhs-teams

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

Just like clockwork

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By *igblackdomTV/TS over a year ago

West Midlands

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?"

Nobody doubts the scale of the task, however that excuse doesn't hold water to say the least.

The reasoning?

The UK were forewarned, the crisis in Asia dates back to January.

The WHO designated Europe as the centre of the evolving crisis on 13th March, a month ago.

People were going to get sick in increasing numbers and the government have relied on the goodwill of NHS workers, encouraged by some community hand clapping to disregard the personal risks they're being exposed to.

One wonders how quickly the right protective equipment would arrive if all frontline NHS staff refused to continue accepting those risks and downed tools.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just like clockwork"

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

As a carer we have ppe we wear gloves and aprons we wear apron throughout the duration of the call but could change gloves up to 3 times depending on type of call ie washing application of creams

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?

Plus we have several lose family members in the NHS, one was in ICU but isolating and the others are front line..

We have close friends not surprisingly also in that profession and all are saying there are issues with ppe that need addressing..

I know who I believe in relation to this and its not Hancock.. "

I believe prior to all of this current situation the supply chain and logistics would normally be dealing with around 220 requests for ppe - this has now jumped to 38,000 requests.

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"As a carer we have ppe we wear gloves and aprons we wear apron throughout the duration of the call but could change gloves up to 3 times depending on type of call ie washing application of creams

So what is your opinion of what he said yesterday?

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?

Plus we have several lose family members in the NHS, one was in ICU but isolating and the others are front line..

We have close friends not surprisingly also in that profession and all are saying there are issues with ppe that need addressing..

I know who I believe in relation to this and its not Hancock..

I believe prior to all of this current situation the supply chain and logistics would normally be dealing with around 220 requests for ppe - this has now jumped to 38,000 requests.

No one is arguing it's a massive task.

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By *tirling DarkCouple over a year ago

Stirling

After this is all over will the HSE prosecute health authorities for failing to provide PPE. If it was a private business they would.

I stress I don't believe the fault lies with the government, the health authorities can't issue kit if the government fails to provide it. However, prosecutors will be a way to kick the government up the arse for failing to protect the people they repeatedly call "heroes".

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By *wholeLotOfRosieWoman over a year ago

Pontypridd

[Removed by poster at 11/04/20 11:06:50]

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By *tirling DarkCouple over a year ago

Stirling

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?

Plus we have several lose family members in the NHS, one was in ICU but isolating and the others are front line..

We have close friends not surprisingly also in that profession and all are saying there are issues with ppe that need addressing..

I know who I believe in relation to this and its not Hancock..

I believe prior to all of this current situation the supply chain and logistics would normally be dealing with around 220 requests for ppe - this has now jumped to 38,000 requests.

No one is arguing it's a massive task."

European medical advice is NOT to use homemade cloth masks as it may actually increase risk

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just like clockwork"

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Just like clockwork

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate"

Do you have like a batphone when someone critices the gmnt it goes off?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just like clockwork

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate

Do you have like a batphone when someone critices the gmnt it goes off?"

Mistress didn't criticise the government. She spoke of the news.

You're not very good at this debating thing are you?

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Just like clockwork

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate

Do you have like a batphone when someone critices the gmnt it goes off?

Mistress didn't criticise the government. She spoke of the news.

You're not very good at this debating thing are you?"

The irony.

I cant be arsed getting onto another pointless debate.

Try reading what most people have said about him.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"My opinion of the things Matt Hancock said yesterday are not printable.

Still as long as people are sewing masks from left over tea towels they'll all be ok.

I genuinely have no words for this situation.

Do you think the comment about ppe being used efficiently was designed to highlight the point that there is new guidance regarding use of PPE, and perhaps not all users are aware of it ?

The task of distributing the ppe they have plenty of is huge - mobilising a hugely increased distribution network to get the stuff is Herculean .

I wonder if we have any idea of the scale of what is required to do this quickly ?

Plus we have several lose family members in the NHS, one was in ICU but isolating and the others are front line..

We have close friends not surprisingly also in that profession and all are saying there are issues with ppe that need addressing..

I know who I believe in relation to this and its not Hancock..

I believe prior to all of this current situation the supply chain and logistics would normally be dealing with around 220 requests for ppe - this has now jumped to 38,000 requests.

No one is arguing it's a massive task."

This..

We have the means and this has been going on for weeks now with frontline NHS staff saying there are issues, some of whom have since died..

How many more..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just like clockwork

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate

Do you have like a batphone when someone critices the gmnt it goes off?

Mistress didn't criticise the government. She spoke of the news.

You're not very good at this debating thing are you?

The irony.

I cant be arsed getting onto another pointless debate.

Try reading what most people have said about him.

It doesn't matter what most people have said. I was replying to one person in particular and you decided to chime in.

If you can't be arsed with the debate then kindly don't come at me with your deflection tactics and stay on topic.

It's really not that hard.

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By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Just like clockwork

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate

Do you have like a batphone when someone critices the gmnt it goes off?

Mistress didn't criticise the government. She spoke of the news.

You're not very good at this debating thing are you?

The irony.

I cant be arsed getting onto another pointless debate.

Try reading what most people have said about him.

It doesn't matter what most people have said. I was replying to one person in particular and you decided to chime in.

If you can't be arsed with the debate then kindly don't come at me with your deflection tactics and stay on topic.

It's really not that hard."

Why doesn't it matter what most people have said?

Fuck knows what you are on about with this deflection nonsense.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *old1974Man over a year ago

Manchester

I'm not sure how Amazon deliver millions of parcels over Christmas in 24 hours and the government is struggling when there are thousands of drivers and lorries sitting in yards around the country unused maybe they should think about utilising these.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just like clockwork

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate

Do you have like a batphone when someone critices the gmnt it goes off?

Mistress didn't criticise the government. She spoke of the news.

You're not very good at this debating thing are you?

The irony.

I cant be arsed getting onto another pointless debate.

Try reading what most people have said about him.

It doesn't matter what most people have said. I was replying to one person in particular and you decided to chime in.

If you can't be arsed with the debate then kindly don't come at me with your deflection tactics and stay on topic.

It's really not that hard.

Why doesn't it matter what most people have said?

Fuck knows what you are on about with this deflection nonsense."

Why does it matter? I asked a simple question. I wasn't debating whether he was a cock or not.

I'm sure we both know what I mean by you deflecting topics. It's been going on for days.

If you need it explaining. You constantly go off on a tangent about stuff that has nothing to do with the said topic. That's deflection, moving the topic elsewhere.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

I see this as not tory v Labour, I think the speed of this could equally have caught Labour with their pants down too..

No government gets it right all the time as history tells us, that is if we want to be objective and not fall into the tribal..

This government however are in charge and the faults and failings of how they are dealing with it now should be scrutinised if lessons can be learned and changes made now which will help save lives..

It's not the fault of the NHS staff who have thus far given their lives..

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Just like clockwork

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate

Do you have like a batphone when someone critices the gmnt it goes off?

Mistress didn't criticise the government. She spoke of the news.

You're not very good at this debating thing are you?

The irony.

I cant be arsed getting onto another pointless debate.

Try reading what most people have said about him.

It doesn't matter what most people have said. I was replying to one person in particular and you decided to chime in.

If you can't be arsed with the debate then kindly don't come at me with your deflection tactics and stay on topic.

It's really not that hard.

Why doesn't it matter what most people have said?

Fuck knows what you are on about with this deflection nonsense.

Why does it matter? I asked a simple question. I wasn't debating whether he was a cock or not.

I'm sure we both know what I mean by you deflecting topics. It's been going on for days.

If you need it explaining. You constantly go off on a tangent about stuff that has nothing to do with the said topic. That's deflection, moving the topic elsewhere."

Why are you just repeating the term deflection?

I'm not derailing the thread.

It's about what the bma and hancock have said.

Stick to that.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just like clockwork

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate

Do you have like a batphone when someone critices the gmnt it goes off?

Mistress didn't criticise the government. She spoke of the news.

You're not very good at this debating thing are you?

The irony.

I cant be arsed getting onto another pointless debate.

Try reading what most people have said about him.

It doesn't matter what most people have said. I was replying to one person in particular and you decided to chime in.

If you can't be arsed with the debate then kindly don't come at me with your deflection tactics and stay on topic.

It's really not that hard.

Why doesn't it matter what most people have said?

Fuck knows what you are on about with this deflection nonsense.

Why does it matter? I asked a simple question. I wasn't debating whether he was a cock or not.

I'm sure we both know what I mean by you deflecting topics. It's been going on for days.

If you need it explaining. You constantly go off on a tangent about stuff that has nothing to do with the said topic. That's deflection, moving the topic elsewhere.

Why are you just repeating the term deflection?

I'm not derailing the thread.

It's about what the bma and hancock have said.

Stick to that."

Obviously you can't see where you took it off topic even when it's shown yo you in black & white.

Good day sir

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Just like clockwork

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate

Do you have like a batphone when someone critices the gmnt it goes off?

Mistress didn't criticise the government. She spoke of the news.

You're not very good at this debating thing are you?

The irony.

I cant be arsed getting onto another pointless debate.

Try reading what most people have said about him.

It doesn't matter what most people have said. I was replying to one person in particular and you decided to chime in.

If you can't be arsed with the debate then kindly don't come at me with your deflection tactics and stay on topic.

It's really not that hard.

Why doesn't it matter what most people have said?

Fuck knows what you are on about with this deflection nonsense.

Why does it matter? I asked a simple question. I wasn't debating whether he was a cock or not.

I'm sure we both know what I mean by you deflecting topics. It's been going on for days.

If you need it explaining. You constantly go off on a tangent about stuff that has nothing to do with the said topic. That's deflection, moving the topic elsewhere.

Why are you just repeating the term deflection?

I'm not derailing the thread.

It's about what the bma and hancock have said.

Stick to that.

Obviously you can't see where you took it off topic even when it's shown yo you in black & white.

Good day sir"

Point proven.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just like clockwork

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate

Do you have like a batphone when someone critices the gmnt it goes off?

Mistress didn't criticise the government. She spoke of the news.

You're not very good at this debating thing are you?

The irony.

I cant be arsed getting onto another pointless debate.

Try reading what most people have said about him.

It doesn't matter what most people have said. I was replying to one person in particular and you decided to chime in.

If you can't be arsed with the debate then kindly don't come at me with your deflection tactics and stay on topic.

It's really not that hard.

Why doesn't it matter what most people have said?

Fuck knows what you are on about with this deflection nonsense.

Why does it matter? I asked a simple question. I wasn't debating whether he was a cock or not.

I'm sure we both know what I mean by you deflecting topics. It's been going on for days.

If you need it explaining. You constantly go off on a tangent about stuff that has nothing to do with the said topic. That's deflection, moving the topic elsewhere.

Why are you just repeating the term deflection?

I'm not derailing the thread.

It's about what the bma and hancock have said.

Stick to that.

Obviously you can't see where you took it off topic even when it's shown yo you in black & white.

Good day sir

Point proven.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"I see this as not tory v Labour, I think the speed of this could equally have caught Labour with their pants down too..

No government gets it right all the time as history tells us, that is if we want to be objective and not fall into the tribal..

This government however are in charge and the faults and failings of how they are dealing with it now should be scrutinised if lessons can be learned and changes made now which will help save lives..

It's not the fault of the NHS staff who have thus far given their lives.."

I think it's more about transparency tbh.If They come out and said',you know what..we are really struggling with this so please bear with us we are doing the best we can' people would be a lot more supportive.

But that piece yesterday seemed,slyly,to be putting the emphasis on waste at the nhs and has pissed off a lot of people.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *andlingswingersCouple over a year ago

Woodbridge

[Removed by poster at 11/04/20 11:34:43]

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just like clockwork

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate

Do you have like a batphone when someone critices the gmnt it goes off?

Mistress didn't criticise the government. She spoke of the news.

You're not very good at this debating thing are you?"

On the government. I think they have handled this whole situation deplorable.

Should have went into lockdown far sooner.

Should have been buying up stocks of ppe and the ingredients for testing kits far sooner.

Per population we will come out of this far worse then any other country.

Yeah I'm very critical of the handling of this by the present government. And believe me they will pay for the piss poor way in which they have handled this...but not as badly as a lot of people who wouldn't have died if they had handled it better.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *andlingswingersCouple over a year ago

Woodbridge

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-survey-finds-doctors-lives-still-at-risk-despite-government-pledges-on-ppe.

Over a month after the man who thinks he's Churchill did his ridiculous TV claim that everything is being done and the NHS he's helped run down for a decade is going to be supported, NHS staff are still not getting the protective equipment the Prime Minister promised. In his usual way he didn't say when, of course.

2% of doctors - TWO PERCENT - think they have the protective gear they need.

It is not the NHS that is to blame, but the idea Johnson is in love with, that British is best, that our noble island race is fundamentally different to all the other, necessarily lesser countries of the world. That attitude has killed millions in the past. It is killing NHS workers now. And it is due to the ludicrous inaction of this government.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

And I'm a he not a she.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"I see this as not tory v Labour, I think the speed of this could equally have caught Labour with their pants down too..

No government gets it right all the time as history tells us, that is if we want to be objective and not fall into the tribal..

This government however are in charge and the faults and failings of how they are dealing with it now should be scrutinised if lessons can be learned and changes made now which will help save lives..

It's not the fault of the NHS staff who have thus far given their lives..

But that piece yesterday seemed,slyly,to be putting the emphasis on waste at the nhs and has pissed off a lot of people."

Rabbit in the headlights at times, he's said a couple of things now which after this and the reshuffle will see him moved I think..

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

Wish you two had have been around yesterday

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Wish you two had have been around yesterday"

Off out but I'll be back

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

"Just like clockwork

Classic deflection. You're starting to sound just those very people you hate

Do you have like a batphone when someone critices the gmnt it goes off?"

Can we just stop with these comments, everyone can comment if it is within rules, snide comments is not helping any debate

Just ignore each other as you are sending debates a different way

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The BMA are in the press regarding the lack of PPE for doctors, which is scandalous

But I think they should be naming hospitals who are lacking any equipment

The generic comments just feed trolls and easy headlines

Is there a reason they don't name hospitals or is this so widespread it's all of them?

I know! ...I'm very sceptical.

Can you wear the ppe for an entire shift?or are there different types?

There are different types/grades of masks depending on patients covid status and what procedure you are carrying out"

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The BMA are in the press regarding the lack of PPE for doctors, which is scandalous

But I think they should be naming hospitals who are lacking any equipment

The generic comments just feed trolls and easy headlines

Is there a reason they don't name hospitals or is this so widespread it's all of them?

I know! ...I'm very sceptical.

Can you wear the ppe for an entire shift?or are there different types?

There are different types/grades of masks depending on patients covid status and what procedure you are carrying out

Hence why we need to know the numbers/grades as if he has sent out the vast majority of just surgical masks...its about as much use as a plastic poker.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

In fairness not many countries aren't struggling with PPE. Lessons need to be learnt.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"My mates brothers sisters wife who is a nurse said they are being sent black bin bags and Juan Sheet kitchen roll for masks....

The 2 posters above appear to have some experience.

You obviously know better."

Lighten up, it's obviously a joke (based on those who have made their own ppe).

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Our local hospital has confirmed it has enough PPE, not sure if that's down to having less cases then the average hospital at the minute or whether its the local community making them.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The BMA are in the press regarding the lack of PPE for doctors, which is scandalous

But I think they should be naming hospitals who are lacking any equipment

The generic comments just feed trolls and easy headlines

Is there a reason they don't name hospitals or is this so widespread it's all of them?

I know! ...I'm very sceptical.

Can you wear the ppe for an entire shift?or are there different types?

There are different types/grades of masks depending on patients covid status and what procedure you are carrying out

Cheers.I just saw a clip yesterday and he was talking about not wasting ppe and only using it when it was absolutely necessary..using it for a full shift shift etc and there were a few angry retorts.

There will be rationales for this. In icu it's one nurse per patient - no chance of cross contamination, so no need to change (although I'd question why ppe is being worn during breaks).

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I see this as not tory v Labour, I think the speed of this could equally have caught Labour with their pants down too..

No government gets it right all the time as history tells us, that is if we want to be objective and not fall into the tribal..

This government however are in charge and the faults and failings of how they are dealing with it now should be scrutinised if lessons can be learned and changes made now which will help save lives..

It's not the fault of the NHS staff who have thus far given their lives..

But that piece yesterday seemed,slyly,to be putting the emphasis on waste at the nhs and has pissed off a lot of people."

If you expect ANY politician to be transparent, then you might as well believe in the tooth fairy.

Ironically, NHS staff are mandated to be transparent.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Why is 330 000 such a familiar number?

Oh that's right. It's about how many of our boys we mananaged to get off the beaches of Dunkirk from across the channel under heavy fire and dive bombers...

Those were the days eh?

Now we can't get PPE to hospitals on empty roads in peacetime...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"I see this as not tory v Labour, I think the speed of this could equally have caught Labour with their pants down too..

No government gets it right all the time as history tells us, that is if we want to be objective and not fall into the tribal..

This government however are in charge and the faults and failings of how they are dealing with it now should be scrutinised if lessons can be learned and changes made now which will help save lives..

It's not the fault of the NHS staff who have thus far given their lives..

But that piece yesterday seemed,slyly,to be putting the emphasis on waste at the nhs and has pissed off a lot of people.

If you expect ANY politician to be transparent, then you might as well believe in the tooth fairy.

Ironically, NHS staff are mandated to be transparent. "

Some politicians have integrity and decency.

It's down to trust pure and simple.

You believe them or you take what they say with a huge pinch of salt.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Why is 330 000 such a familiar number?

Oh that's right. It's about how many of our boys we mananaged to get off the beaches of Dunkirk from across the channel under heavy fire and dive bombers...

Those were the days eh?

Now we can't get PPE to hospitals on empty roads in peacetime..."

It was 338,000 of which only about 200,000 were British soldiers, the rest were from elsewhere around Europe so your numbers are flawed. Yes, I did have to google it. Although it has fuck all relevance to this thread

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

The government had the notice period from January in order to plan. This included the ordering of the essential kit, such as PPE, its distribution as well as testing supplies, processes etc. There were some key priority requirements. On top of this, they could have planned the thresholds for isolation of the public, which would release capacity of logistics, unoccupied buildings, business capacity etc, for repurposing. Hancock had the medical bits to think about, not particularly onerous to have had the baseline plan stitched up in late January and rolling into action ever since. Their risk assessment would have highlighted the avoidable clusterf&cks of postponements, ordering once the rest of the world, including the USA was in gear. Time wasted meant thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands more people infected and thousands more deaths.

The NHS had finite capacity and the highly infectious nature of the virus made it obvious that we had capacity constraints that would be breached.

This particular government don't like to be accountable. Johnson is irresponsibile and lacks moral compass, with many avoidable failures behind him. They will be looking for opportunities to push blame on to anyone and anything that they think they can get away with.

We're going to get some leeway in all likelihood in the weeks ahead. If restrictions are eased, it would be too easy to forget what's happened, as people will regain some liberty and feel happier. We must have the same focus and holding the government as accountable the whole way through, with the failures from the start making the whole process so radically worse than it should have been.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Why is 330 000 such a familiar number?

Oh that's right. It's about how many of our boys we mananaged to get off the beaches of Dunkirk from across the channel under heavy fire and dive bombers...

Those were the days eh?

Now we can't get PPE to hospitals on empty roads in peacetime...

They counted them all? Oh and back then people who gave their lives for the Queen were still 'our boys' and not 'bloody foreigners'.

Oh you can't see the point? Didn't think it needed explaining...

To save lives the people of England got together in tugboats, dinghies, anything that would float and managed to get all those soldiers off a beach on the other side of the channel. Winston Churchill called it a 'miracle of deliverance'. We had 405 000 volunteers for the NHS in the first day.

The danger of declaring that something is impossible to do is that there is always some idiot out there doing it.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The government had the notice period from January in order to plan. This included the ordering of the essential kit, such as PPE, its distribution as well as testing supplies, processes etc. There were some key priority requirements. On top of this, they could have planned the thresholds for isolation of the public, which would release capacity of logistics, unoccupied buildings, business capacity etc, for repurposing. Hancock had the medical bits to think about, not particularly onerous to have had the baseline plan stitched up in late January and rolling into action ever since. Their risk assessment would have highlighted the avoidable clusterf&cks of postponements, ordering once the rest of the world, including the USA was in gear. Time wasted meant thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands more people infected and thousands more deaths.

The NHS had finite capacity and the highly infectious nature of the virus made it obvious that we had capacity constraints that would be breached.

Yeah yeah yeah.... but we got Brexit done!!!!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

So, just for clarity, are people suggesting that there is plenty of equipment everywhere as long as it is not used "wastefully".

Are the BMA just making something up for some ulterior motive?

Would anyone care to suggest what that might be?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I see this as not tory v Labour, I think the speed of this could equally have caught Labour with their pants down too..

No government gets it right all the time as history tells us, that is if we want to be objective and not fall into the tribal..

This government however are in charge and the faults and failings of how they are dealing with it now should be scrutinised if lessons can be learned and changes made now which will help save lives..

It's not the fault of the NHS staff who have thus far given their lives..

But that piece yesterday seemed,slyly,to be putting the emphasis on waste at the nhs and has pissed off a lot of people.

If you expect ANY politician to be transparent, then you might as well believe in the tooth fairy.

Ironically, NHS staff are mandated to be transparent.

Some politicians have integrity and decency.

It's down to trust pure and simple.

You believe them or you take what they say with a huge pinch of salt."

No, I'd say listen with a critical mind.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Why is 330 000 such a familiar number?

Oh that's right. It's about how many of our boys we mananaged to get off the beaches of Dunkirk from across the channel under heavy fire and dive bombers...

Those were the days eh?

Now we can't get PPE to hospitals on empty roads in peacetime...

They counted them all? Oh and back then people who gave their lives for the Queen were still 'our boys' and not 'bloody foreigners'.

Oh you can't see the point? Didn't think it needed explaining...

The danger of declaring that something is impossible to do is that there is always some idiot out there doing it."

Yes they did

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"I see this as not tory v Labour, I think the speed of this could equally have caught Labour with their pants down too..

No government gets it right all the time as history tells us, that is if we want to be objective and not fall into the tribal..

This government however are in charge and the faults and failings of how they are dealing with it now should be scrutinised if lessons can be learned and changes made now which will help save lives..

It's not the fault of the NHS staff who have thus far given their lives..

But that piece yesterday seemed,slyly,to be putting the emphasis on waste at the nhs and has pissed off a lot of people.

If you expect ANY politician to be transparent, then you might as well believe in the tooth fairy.

Ironically, NHS staff are mandated to be transparent.

Some politicians have integrity and decency.

It's down to trust pure and simple.

You believe them or you take what they say with a huge pinch of salt.

No, I'd say listen with a critical mind. "

Isnt that the same thing?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

"I see this as not tory v Labour, I think the speed of this could equally have caught Labour with their pants down too..

No government gets it right all the time as history tells us, that is if we want to be objective and not fall into the tribal..

This government however are in charge and the faults and failings of how they are dealing with it now should be scrutinised if lessons can be learned and changes made now which will help save lives..

It's not the fault of the NHS staff who have thus far given their lives..

But that piece yesterday seemed,slyly,to be putting the emphasis on waste at the nhs and has pissed off a lot of people.

If you expect ANY politician to be transparent, then you might as well believe in the tooth fairy.

Ironically, NHS staff are mandated to be transparent.

Some politicians have integrity and decency.

It's down to trust pure and simple.

You believe them or you take what they say with a huge pinch of salt.

No, I'd say listen with a critical mind. "

Talking of a critical mind ..... how’s that precis coming along ? Nearly ready to submit it ?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Why is 330 000 such a familiar number?

Oh that's right. It's about how many of our boys we mananaged to get off the beaches of Dunkirk from across the channel under heavy fire and dive bombers...

Those were the days eh?

Now we can't get PPE to hospitals on empty roads in peacetime...

They counted them all? Oh and back then people who gave their lives for the Queen were still 'our boys' and not 'bloody foreigners'.

Oh you can't see the point? Didn't think it needed explaining...

The danger of declaring that something is impossible to do is that there is always some idiot out there doing it.

Yes they did

Seriously, if I got a call asking me to drive somewhere and pick up PPE for the NHS I would drive to the other side of the UK to get it. This is just not acceptable in my book.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I see this as not tory v Labour, I think the speed of this could equally have caught Labour with their pants down too..

No government gets it right all the time as history tells us, that is if we want to be objective and not fall into the tribal..

This government however are in charge and the faults and failings of how they are dealing with it now should be scrutinised if lessons can be learned and changes made now which will help save lives..

It's not the fault of the NHS staff who have thus far given their lives..

But that piece yesterday seemed,slyly,to be putting the emphasis on waste at the nhs and has pissed off a lot of people.

If you expect ANY politician to be transparent, then you might as well believe in the tooth fairy.

Ironically, NHS staff are mandated to be transparent.

Some politicians have integrity and decency.

It's down to trust pure and simple.

You believe them or you take what they say with a huge pinch of salt.

No, I'd say listen with a critical mind.

Isnt that the same thing?"

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"I see this as not tory v Labour, I think the speed of this could equally have caught Labour with their pants down too..

No government gets it right all the time as history tells us, that is if we want to be objective and not fall into the tribal..

This government however are in charge and the faults and failings of how they are dealing with it now should be scrutinised if lessons can be learned and changes made now which will help save lives..

It's not the fault of the NHS staff who have thus far given their lives..

But that piece yesterday seemed,slyly,to be putting the emphasis on waste at the nhs and has pissed off a lot of people.

If you expect ANY politician to be transparent, then you might as well believe in the tooth fairy.

Ironically, NHS staff are mandated to be transparent.

Some politicians have integrity and decency.

It's down to trust pure and simple.

You believe them or you take what they say with a huge pinch of salt.

No, I'd say listen with a critical mind.

Isnt that the same thing?

No"

I agree, one is entering the debate with a preformed bias, the other is able to properly analyse data presented without prejudice.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *emptd2Man over a year ago

Burgess Hill & Birmingham

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/27/advice-on-protective-gear-for-nhs-staff-was-rejected-owing-to-cost

Salient points:

the Govt commissioned an advisory committee to advise on PPE stockpiling for a pandemic such as this; this advice was released in 2016 including a recommendation to stockpile eye protection and was apparently collated at least in part by medics and scientists;

in 2017, the Govt had decided that "a subsequent internal DH health economic assessment" found a "very large incremental cost of adding in eye protection" with "a very low likelihood of cost-benefit based on standard thresholds";

the Govt asked the committee to "reconsider its recommendations" in light of this;

by Jan 2018, the committee had amended their recommendations to diminish the necessity for eye protection.

TLDR: Govt asks scientists what PPE to stockpile for pandemic, scientists say, "oh, stockpile X," Govt says, "that's too expensive, tell us something else," scientists say, "OK, just stockpile Y then."

With the current lack of transparency around this, it's impossible to say for sure whether the savings made by amending the stockpiling plan are still outweighing the current total cost of desperately buying PPE in a global crisis, the cost of replacing ill and dead healthcare staff, and the cost of the PR and HR work surrounding it all. I think it's fair to say they might at least be comparable, and that the prior cost-benefit analysis was misguided or outright falsified.

Of course this ignores any moral and ethical obligation the government has.

Will we ever see this investigated? Has anyone had any deeper visibility into this?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745"

Most definitely.I wouldn't say they have an'agenda'and if they have gone to the press there must be serious concerns

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *limmatureguyMan over a year ago

Tonbridge

Why don't people understand that there is not enough PPE in the world to go around and every country is trying its best to get enough for its healthcare workers. You can't magic PPE kit out of thin air.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

"Why don't people understand that there is not enough PPE in the world to go around and every country is trying its best to get enough for its healthcare workers. You can't magic PPE kit out of thin air."

People understand this.

Do you understand that the government says that there is enough and that medical staff disagree?

Do you understand that case staff will be getting ill and some dying as a consequence?

Do you understand that industry started tooling up for producing PPE well before the government thought to ask?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

Has anyone actually said this?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

People understand this.

Do you understand that the government says that there is enough and that medical staff disagree?

Do you understand that case staff will be getting ill and some dying as a consequence?

Do you understand that industry started tooling up for producing PPE well before the government thought to ask?"

That's how simple it is

The government says there is enough

The BMa says there isnt (do they just cover hospitals?what about care homes etc)

So you do you research and decide who Is most likely being more truthful?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

Has anyone actually said this?"

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/uk-races-to-secure-nurse-ppe-for-coronavirus-as-global-supplies-run-low-11-02-2020/

Yes, even the WHO admitted it.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

People understand this.

Do you understand that the government says that there is enough and that medical staff disagree?

Do you understand that case staff will be getting ill and some dying as a consequence?

Do you understand that industry started tooling up for producing PPE well before the government thought to ask?"

Whilst I don't for one minute think the BMA are lying or have falsified any information they surveyed less then 1% of hospital doctors.

Do we feel that that is a large enough demographic to take as absolute fact?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

Has anyone actually said this?

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/uk-races-to-secure-nurse-ppe-for-coronavirus-as-global-supplies-run-low-11-02-2020/

Yes, even the WHO admitted it. "

"He (the head of the WHO) warned that frontline health workers in China required “the bulk” of PPE supplies and discouraged stockpiling of these products in countries and areas where transmission is low."

The WHO admitted their is a shortage and instructed countries not to stockpile. To those that seem to think that the WHO is the gospel, should we have stockpiled?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

People understand this.

Do you understand that the government says that there is enough and that medical staff disagree?

Do you understand that case staff will be getting ill and some dying as a consequence?

Do you understand that industry started tooling up for producing PPE well before the government thought to ask?

Whilst I don't for one minute think the BMA are lying or have falsified any information they surveyed less then 1% of hospital doctors.

Do we feel that that is a large enough demographic to take as absolute fact?"

If you ask one person from every hospital, particularly if they are responsible for the Covid-19 response, then 1% is more than adequate.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

People understand this.

Do you understand that the government says that there is enough and that medical staff disagree?

Do you understand that case staff will be getting ill and some dying as a consequence?

Do you understand that industry started tooling up for producing PPE well before the government thought to ask?

Whilst I don't for one minute think the BMA are lying or have falsified any information they surveyed less then 1% of hospital doctors.

Do we feel that that is a large enough demographic to take as absolute fact?

If you ask one person from every hospital, particularly if they are responsible for the Covid-19 response, then 1% is more than adequate."

Fair point.

I'm not sure who they've asked but if as you say they are asking the correct people then I'd agree.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar."

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745"

I believe the BMA are doing exactly what they should be doing - representing and protecting their members. The way they are successfully doing this is by keeping the media spotlight on the NHS and government.

The BMA survey carried out between the 3rd and 6th April highlights 2 areas of the country where they are most concerned - this appears to the main body of their press release . Does this mean the survey responses show a reasonable stable supply in the other parts of the country.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

Has anyone actually said this?

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/uk-races-to-secure-nurse-ppe-for-coronavirus-as-global-supplies-run-low-11-02-2020/

Yes, even the WHO admitted it.

The WHO admitted their is a shortage and instructed countries not to stockpile. To those that seem to think that the WHO is the gospel, should we have stockpiled?"

So the first point is having created a strategic stockpile before this outbreak would have been independent of current shortages. Failing that a contingency for domestic production to ramp up quickly may have sufficed.

Hopefully next time.

However, the government is telling us that there isn't a problem and that apparently staff maybe using equipment unnecessarily which conflicts with what their experience actually appears to be.

The fact that rural areas who have not had significant infection rates yet aren't having a problem is not that helpful.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm not buying into the route cause of the problem being that there isn't enough PPE and this a worldwide problem.

I think the route cause is that we have too many hospitalizations. Do you really think New Zealand has a PPE shortage with their 29 new cases today?

Many of our cases are in London. We deliberately reduced our transport services causing queues and people squeezed together like sardines. Maybe that's where the problem started. Maybe that's why we have over 5200 new cases today.

We are all blaming someone for not being able to clear up a mess someone else made.

That's how I see it.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'm not buying into the route cause of the problem being that there isn't enough PPE and this a worldwide problem.

I think the route cause is that we have too many hospitalizations. Do you really think New Zealand has a PPE shortage with their 29 new cases today?

We are all blaming someone for not being able to clear up a mess someone else made.

That's how I see it."

So its Sadiq Khan's fault? Is that what you are saying?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?"

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

Has anyone actually said this?

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/uk-races-to-secure-nurse-ppe-for-coronavirus-as-global-supplies-run-low-11-02-2020/

Yes, even the WHO admitted it.

The WHO admitted their is a shortage and instructed countries not to stockpile. To those that seem to think that the WHO is the gospel, should we have stockpiled?

Hopefully next time.

However, the government is telling us that there isn't a problem and that apparently staff maybe using equipment unnecessarily which conflicts with what their experience actually appears to be.

The fact that rural areas who have not had significant infection rates yet aren't having a problem is not that helpful."

It is easy to say what should have been done with hindsight and without consideration/inclusion of the reasons and constraints affecting/influencing the decisions made.

It's worth noting that both the WHO and the UN only decided to declare a pandemic relatively recently. Also, can you provide proof that there has been no effort to have more ppe manufactured on our own soil?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell."

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *wisted999Man over a year ago

North Bucks

"I'm not buying into the route cause of the problem being that there isn't enough PPE and this a worldwide problem.

I think the route cause is that we have too many hospitalizations. Do you really think New Zealand has a PPE shortage with their 29 new cases today?

We are all blaming someone for not being able to clear up a mess someone else made.

That's how I see it."

The Mayoral Office and TFL management have a case to answer for sure.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?"

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'm not buying into the route cause of the problem being that there isn't enough PPE and this a worldwide problem.

I think the route cause is that we have too many hospitalizations. Do you really think New Zealand has a PPE shortage with their 29 new cases today?

We are all blaming someone for not being able to clear up a mess someone else made.

That's how I see it.

The Mayoral Office and TFL management have a case to answer for sure. "

That was Sadiq Khan's idea, funny how he is immune to criticism from a large chunk on here

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic"

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

I dont doubt that there are severe shortages in some places but considering the scale of the task it cannot be 100% perfect. There are many things that could affect supply, a lot of which are outside our governments control.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss."

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'm not buying into the route cause of the problem being that there isn't enough PPE and this a worldwide problem.

I think the route cause is that we have too many hospitalizations. Do you really think New Zealand has a PPE shortage with their 29 new cases today?

We are all blaming someone for not being able to clear up a mess someone else made.

That's how I see it.

So its Sadiq Khan's fault? Is that what you are saying?"

Nope I think he does what he's told.

But it doesn't matter what I think. The public transport was crowded. It's a matter of public record. We have a very high infection rate. That's also a matter of public record. We have examples of countries who don't have the problems we have simply because of policy.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *wisted999Man over a year ago

North Bucks

"I'm not buying into the route cause of the problem being that there isn't enough PPE and this a worldwide problem.

I think the route cause is that we have too many hospitalizations. Do you really think New Zealand has a PPE shortage with their 29 new cases today?

We are all blaming someone for not being able to clear up a mess someone else made.

That's how I see it.

The Mayoral Office and TFL management have a case to answer for sure.

That was Sadiq Khan's idea, funny how he is immune to criticism from a large chunk on here

I don’t think anyone should be immune to criticism. The poor TFL workers who have died is a separate scandal in itself.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'm not buying into the route cause of the problem being that there isn't enough PPE and this a worldwide problem.

I think the route cause is that we have too many hospitalizations. Do you really think New Zealand has a PPE shortage with their 29 new cases today?

We are all blaming someone for not being able to clear up a mess someone else made.

That's how I see it.

So its Sadiq Khan's fault? Is that what you are saying?

Nope I think he does what he's told.

But it was his decision as Mayor of London. He told other people what do do, no one told him. Or is he immune to your criticism?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'm not buying into the route cause of the problem being that there isn't enough PPE and this a worldwide problem.

I think the route cause is that we have too many hospitalizations. Do you really think New Zealand has a PPE shortage with their 29 new cases today?

We are all blaming someone for not being able to clear up a mess someone else made.

That's how I see it.

The Mayoral Office and TFL management have a case to answer for sure.

That was Sadiq Khan's idea, funny how he is immune to criticism from a large chunk on here

I don’t think anyone should be immune to criticism. The poor TFL workers who have died is a separate scandal in itself. "

I agree with you. I think everyone needs to be united through this, the lessons learnt exercise after is when mistakes can be analysed.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop."

I work for the gmnt .if I came out and publically criticized them I probally wouldnt be in a job for much longer.Its very rare senior civil servants,which I'm guessing what she is,will come out and publically deny what the gmnt is saying.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop."

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

Yes, everyone that needs it should have more than enough PPE. It is also true then a lot dont have enough. With these two facts people go straight to blaming the gov. They dont know the in depth reasons behind the situation yet think they can solve the issue based on headlines and Google research.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

Maybe I'm only seeing this through my own eyes but if that was me I guess I'd be out of a job

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

The BMA only pointed out 2 key areas with regards to shortage I believe

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

Maybe I'm only seeing this through my own eyes but if that was me I guess I'd be out of a job"

You probally wouuldnt last long.Civil servants and are supposed to be politically impartial.If she ,basically,accuses the gmnt of lying she will be out on her ear.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

I've acknowledged both of the first points and have not claimed the BMA are lying.

Back to the point I made, for the many saying they have enough within their particular service, where is it coming from? And if they have it what exactly is restricting it for those that dont?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

The BMA only pointed out 2 key areas with regards to shortage I believe "

I keep saying..if they were fully supportive of what the gmnt had done they would have kept scthum.Why cause headlines at a time like this?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

I've acknowledged both of the first points and have not claimed the BMA are lying.

Back to the point I made, for the many saying they have enough within their particular service, where is it coming from? And if they have it what exactly is restricting it for those that dont?"

The general secretary of the RCN has just been on. She said that plenty of their members have received PPE but plenty haven't. Not entirely sure why they haven't but she cited 'logistical problems'

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

I've acknowledged both of the first points and have not claimed the BMA are lying.

Back to the point I made, for the many saying they have enough within their particular service, where is it coming from? And if they have it what exactly is restricting it for those that dont?

The general secretary of the RCN has just been on. She said that plenty of their members have received PPE but plenty haven't. Not entirely sure why they haven't but she cited 'logistical problems'"

And that's the disconnect as they are saying they have.

You would think this could be sorted out behind closed doors so there is clearly a level of frustration there.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt."

Everyone always blames the gov, for everything. What they dont do is look at the bigger picture, just the headlines. People are very emotive about it and focus on the outrage, whilst ignoring the facts.

Just like my point on the who admitting global supply issue, instructing not to stockpile and only declaring a pandemic 4 weeks ago. The only response it got was someone saying we should already have a stockpile. In an ideal world we should have a stockpile of ppe, and, milk, toilet roll, flour etc. However it's not an ideal world and it is not possible or practical.

Remember the outrage about panic buyers? The ridicule they got for being stupid, selfish, wasteful etc, imagine if our gov bought mountains of everything we could possibly need, just incase. Peoples heads would explode at the money 'wasted'

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

In terms of accountability...

If people don't know what to do, they get together make a decision and it's the wrong decision. That's life. No one is perfect. You live and learn.

But when you have a choice and experts are telling you that the option you have chosen will lead to catastrophic loss of human life, when you have another nation before you just make the same mistake you are about to make.... well that's something else.

The WHO was in shock when we carried on as usual, people howled in protest, did the maths, showed the mathematical models projecting the death toll, but we went on regardless. China had just made the same mistake and fallen back on lockdown, Italy was caught unprepared.... we can't say we didn't have a clear course of action.

This was not a mistake. It was a wilful and deliberate strategy that ignored good and proven advice. There are no excuses.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

I've acknowledged both of the first points and have not claimed the BMA are lying.

Back to the point I made, for the many saying they have enough within their particular service, where is it coming from? And if they have it what exactly is restricting it for those that dont?

The general secretary of the RCN has just been on. She said that plenty of their members have received PPE but plenty haven't. Not entirely sure why they haven't but she cited 'logistical problems'

And that's the disconnect as they are saying they have.

You would think this could be sorted out behind closed doors so there is clearly a level of frustration there."

Or a media fueled and or political witch hunt? Nothing is left behind closed doors intead it is used as a stick to beat the government with.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

I've acknowledged both of the first points and have not claimed the BMA are lying.

Back to the point I made, for the many saying they have enough within their particular service, where is it coming from? And if they have it what exactly is restricting it for those that dont?

The general secretary of the RCN has just been on. She said that plenty of their members have received PPE but plenty haven't. Not entirely sure why they haven't but she cited 'logistical problems'

And that's the disconnect as they are saying they have.

You would think this could be sorted out behind closed doors so there is clearly a level of frustration there.

Or a media fueled and or political witch hunt? Nothing is left behind closed doors intead it is used as a stick to beat the government with. "

Considering the bulk of the media are solidly right wing I fail to see how its s "media filled witchhunt'

Nothing is left behind closed doors?

They are the ones doing the daily briefings.

At the end of the day the gmnt are responsible for handling the situation.

3 separate medical organisations are saying 1 thing.The gmnt are saying another.

Its nothing with withhunts or agendas.

You believe 1 side.or you believe the other.Simple.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible. "

If people choose to believe that the gov are spreading the virus far and wide rather than realising that it is inevitable the virus will spread itself far and wide, they can only blame their own ignorance/prejudice.

The government are doing what they think right to control and deal with it in a way that minimises the lives lost. Everyone fails to acknowledge the efforts that are being made and instead circles like a pack of vultures ready to criticise anything that isn't as perfect as they like.

I started a thread yesterday to talk about what the gov are doing to help. Nobody was interested and it turned into about what they aren't doing, as usual, with the same faces out banging the war drums.

It's like Brexit all over again.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

I've acknowledged both of the first points and have not claimed the BMA are lying.

Back to the point I made, for the many saying they have enough within their particular service, where is it coming from? And if they have it what exactly is restricting it for those that dont?

The general secretary of the RCN has just been on. She said that plenty of their members have received PPE but plenty haven't. Not entirely sure why they haven't but she cited 'logistical problems'

And that's the disconnect as they are saying they have.

You would think this could be sorted out behind closed doors so there is clearly a level of frustration there.

Or a media fueled and or political witch hunt? Nothing is left behind closed doors intead it is used as a stick to beat the government with.

Considering the bulk of the media are solidly right wing I fail to see how its s "media filled witchhunt'

Nothing is left behind closed doors?

They are the ones doing the daily briefings.

At the end of the day the gmnt are responsible for handling the situation.

3 separate medical organisations are saying 1 thing.The gmnt are saying another.

Its nothing with withhunts or agendas.

You believe 1 side.or you believe the other.Simple."

But it isn't about sides, lionel. It's about facts. To many people are ignoring/avoiding them because of their own bias/agenda.

I have said this quite a few times now but unsurprisingly, its ignored/avoided...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

I've acknowledged both of the first points and have not claimed the BMA are lying.

Back to the point I made, for the many saying they have enough within their particular service, where is it coming from? And if they have it what exactly is restricting it for those that dont?

The general secretary of the RCN has just been on. She said that plenty of their members have received PPE but plenty haven't. Not entirely sure why they haven't but she cited 'logistical problems'

And that's the disconnect as they are saying they have.

You would think this could be sorted out behind closed doors so there is clearly a level of frustration there.

Or a media fueled and or political witch hunt? Nothing is left behind closed doors intead it is used as a stick to beat the government with.

Considering the bulk of the media are solidly right wing I fail to see how its s "media filled witchhunt'

Nothing is left behind closed doors?

They are the ones doing the daily briefings.

At the end of the day the gmnt are responsible for handling the situation.

3 separate medical organisations are saying 1 thing.The gmnt are saying another.

Its nothing with withhunts or agendas.

You believe 1 side.or you believe the other.Simple.

But it isn't about sides, lionel. It's about facts. To many people are ignoring/avoiding them because of their own bias/agenda.

I have said this quite a few times now but unsurprisingly, its ignored/avoided..."

As for the media, this is the biggest event in a lifetime. All they care about is selling papers/views. The media is money driven, political allegiance is secondary.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

I've acknowledged both of the first points and have not claimed the BMA are lying.

Back to the point I made, for the many saying they have enough within their particular service, where is it coming from? And if they have it what exactly is restricting it for those that dont?

The general secretary of the RCN has just been on. She said that plenty of their members have received PPE but plenty haven't. Not entirely sure why they haven't but she cited 'logistical problems'

And that's the disconnect as they are saying they have.

You would think this could be sorted out behind closed doors so there is clearly a level of frustration there.

Or a media fueled and or political witch hunt? Nothing is left behind closed doors intead it is used as a stick to beat the government with.

Considering the bulk of the media are solidly right wing I fail to see how its s "media filled witchhunt'

Nothing is left behind closed doors?

They are the ones doing the daily briefings.

At the end of the day the gmnt are responsible for handling the situation.

3 separate medical organisations are saying 1 thing.The gmnt are saying another.

Its nothing with withhunts or agendas.

You believe 1 side.or you believe the other.Simple.

But it isn't about sides, lionel. It's about facts. To many people are ignoring/avoiding them because of their own bias/agenda.

I have said this quite a few times now but unsurprisingly, its ignored/avoided..."

But when you have got both sides pointing fingers..which they are doing ..then it is about taking sides.

And the problem with 'facts'is we live in an age where a politician can say 1 thing 1 day and simply deny it the following day.No wonder people are cynical.

I dont know the true facts.None of us do but when you have a respected medical body contracting the gmnt,that is surely a cause of concern.

As for agendas..none of us can change anything.but or can have an opinion

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

It's like Brexit all over again. "

Why is inevitable? Other countries who imposed border restrictions and quarantine for people coming into the country don't have the problems we do. The numbers are there.

You started a thread asking is the government doing enough... my comment was that you don't become a hero sorting out the mess you made in the first place. The government needed to take proactive measures to slow down the spread but instead every action that has been taken has been a reaction to things they have no control of. It's really late in the day to be coming to the party.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

I've acknowledged both of the first points and have not claimed the BMA are lying.

Back to the point I made, for the many saying they have enough within their particular service, where is it coming from? And if they have it what exactly is restricting it for those that dont?

The general secretary of the RCN has just been on. She said that plenty of their members have received PPE but plenty haven't. Not entirely sure why they haven't but she cited 'logistical problems'

And that's the disconnect as they are saying they have.

You would think this could be sorted out behind closed doors so there is clearly a level of frustration there.

Or a media fueled and or political witch hunt? Nothing is left behind closed doors intead it is used as a stick to beat the government with.

Considering the bulk of the media are solidly right wing I fail to see how its s "media filled witchhunt'

Nothing is left behind closed doors?

They are the ones doing the daily briefings.

At the end of the day the gmnt are responsible for handling the situation.

3 separate medical organisations are saying 1 thing.The gmnt are saying another.

Its nothing with withhunts or agendas.

You believe 1 side.or you believe the other.Simple.

But it isn't about sides, lionel. It's about facts. To many people are ignoring/avoiding them because of their own bias/agenda.

I have said this quite a few times now but unsurprisingly, its ignored/avoided...

As for the media, this is the biggest event in a lifetime. All they care about is selling papers/views. The media is money driven, political allegiance is secondary."

If that was the case wouldnt The media be constantly shifting allegiances?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Is the media driven or is it controlled?

Two examples:

1) The uk misses out on a chance to buy ventilators with the EU. We get a crappy excuse about a missed enail. Obvious lie since it was on the news. The story died without a murmur.

2) Dominic Cummings reportedly said "let the old people die". He denies it. End of story. If Jeremy Corbyn had ever uttered those words it would be in the news for weeks.

Why is the NHS in the news? Because it is always getting hammered. Why is it always getting hammered? Because you can't suggest to privatise an entity that is running well.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

It's like Brexit all over again.

Why is inevitable? Other countries who imposed border restrictions and quarantine for people coming into the country don't have the problems we do. The numbers are there.

It is inevitable because we are never going to eradicate this virus without a vaccine. Even if 100% of the worlds people had ZERO contact with anyone else (impossible) and the virus was eradicated from humans, this virus will make the jump from wherever it came from again and the cycle begins once more.

All of this pandemic came from maybe just one initial infection and has spread around the world in months. The virus has possibly infected other animals (tigers in New York zoo) and there could be reserves of the virus ready and waiting to infect humans again.

The transmission rate is every one is said to infect three others. This means that after just 10 reinfections this becomes 59,000 people infected. As some are asymptomatic it would be impossible to contain with track and trace and the virus continues to spread l, far and wide.

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

I've acknowledged both of the first points and have not claimed the BMA are lying.

Back to the point I made, for the many saying they have enough within their particular service, where is it coming from? And if they have it what exactly is restricting it for those that dont?

The general secretary of the RCN has just been on. She said that plenty of their members have received PPE but plenty haven't. Not entirely sure why they haven't but she cited 'logistical problems'

And that's the disconnect as they are saying they have.

You would think this could be sorted out behind closed doors so there is clearly a level of frustration there.

Or a media fueled and or political witch hunt? Nothing is left behind closed doors intead it is used as a stick to beat the government with.

Considering the bulk of the media are solidly right wing I fail to see how its s "media filled witchhunt'

Nothing is left behind closed doors?

They are the ones doing the daily briefings.

At the end of the day the gmnt are responsible for handling the situation.

3 separate medical organisations are saying 1 thing.The gmnt are saying another.

Its nothing with withhunts or agendas.

You believe 1 side.or you believe the other.Simple.

But it isn't about sides, lionel. It's about facts. To many people are ignoring/avoiding them because of their own bias/agenda.

I have said this quite a few times now but unsurprisingly, its ignored/avoided...

As for the media, this is the biggest event in a lifetime. All they care about is selling papers/views. The media is money driven, political allegiance is secondary.

If that was the case wouldnt The media be constantly shifting allegiances?"

Firstly, the media extends beyond papers owned by those with strong political connections.

Secondly, even those papers with an allegiance post headlines which betray it. Not as vehemently, granted but they do, because it sells.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

It's like Brexit all over again.

Why is inevitable? Other countries who imposed border restrictions and quarantine for people coming into the country don't have the problems we do. The numbers are there.

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine. "

To add, the infection rate for flu is 1.8 opposed to 3 for covid. After 10 steps flu infects 357 vs 59,000 for covid. This is why it is impossible to contain it.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

"Here is some actual information.

There isn't a great deal, so I'm more inclined to believe doctors and nurses than politicians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

You could take that from it. From a personal POV I can say for absolute certain that SW Ambulance Service Trust have what they need.

Source? My brother who is a paramedic

Many others, in this thread, are also saying they have enough so where is it all coming from if the gov are lying about stocks?

Many have come out and said there are categorically not enough to round.

It will vary from hospital to hospital.

Why would the bma lie about it?

I've acknowledged both of the first points and have not claimed the BMA are lying.

Back to the point I made, for the many saying they have enough within their particular service, where is it coming from? And if they have it what exactly is restricting it for those that dont?

The general secretary of the RCN has just been on. She said that plenty of their members have received PPE but plenty haven't. Not entirely sure why they haven't but she cited 'logistical problems'

And that's the disconnect as they are saying they have.

You would think this could be sorted out behind closed doors so there is clearly a level of frustration there.

Or a media fueled and or political witch hunt? Nothing is left behind closed doors intead it is used as a stick to beat the government with.

Considering the bulk of the media are solidly right wing I fail to see how its s "media filled witchhunt'

Nothing is left behind closed doors?

They are the ones doing the daily briefings.

At the end of the day the gmnt are responsible for handling the situation.

3 separate medical organisations are saying 1 thing.The gmnt are saying another.

Its nothing with withhunts or agendas.

You believe 1 side.or you believe the other.Simple.

But it isn't about sides, lionel. It's about facts. To many people are ignoring/avoiding them because of their own bias/agenda.

I have said this quite a few times now but unsurprisingly, its ignored/avoided...

As for the media, this is the biggest event in a lifetime. All they care about is selling papers/views. The media is money driven, political allegiance is secondary.

If that was the case wouldnt The media be constantly shifting allegiances?

Firstly, the media extends beyond papers owned by those with strong political connections.

Secondly, even those papers with an allegiance post headlines which betray it. Not as vehemently, granted but they do, because it sells. "

I get the media is not just the print media.

I'd say the television media (with the exception of sky)at least try to stay impartial.

I think the written media each have their own bias,and very,very rarely stray from that.

Doesnt The times actually lose money?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ionelhutzMan over a year ago

liverpool

[Removed by poster at 11/04/20 19:54:19]

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine. "

So are you saying they should have just let it spread?

If not how would your exit plan look?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

It's like Brexit all over again.

Why is inevitable? Other countries who imposed border restrictions and quarantine for people coming into the country don't have the problems we do. The numbers are there.

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine. "

What about viruses that have been contained before they became epidemics?

Time will tell on the other countries, because once your numbers are low enough you can track, trace and isolate. Some countries have initially had high infection rates and brought them down. Some countries don't even need lockdown.

Many of the countries that have done exceptionally have been islands for obvious reasons. Taiwan, Hong Kong, New Zealand.... South Korea only has one border and that's with North Korea. Such a pity we aren't an island!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"Is the media driven or is it controlled?

Two examples:

1) The uk misses out on a chance to buy ventilators with the EU. We get a crappy excuse about a missed enail. Obvious lie since it was on the news. The story died without a murmur.

2) Dominic Cummings reportedly said "let the old people die". He denies it. End of story. If Jeremy Corbyn had ever uttered those words it would be in the news for weeks.

Why is the NHS in the news? Because it is always getting hammered. Why is it always getting hammered? Because you can't suggest to privatise an entity that is running well."

As I said, the media extends way beyond newspapers with a political bias. You can search the internet and find 'new' articles to prove anything you wish to believe and people lap it up and use it to prove their point.

The NHS is always in the news because it is a political football, just used to score points. People love to play with peoples emotions and as the nhs is something most people care strongly about it is guaranteed to cause outrage and bully people into their side. No one want to be thought of as against the nhs, right? Same as no outspoken labour supporter is going to admit the gov are doing anything right.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine.

So are you saying they should have just let it spread?

If not how would your exit plan look?"

Let it spread in a controlled manner whilst shielding the vulnerable and protecting the nhs until the threat is dramatically reduced through herd immunity.

What's your solution?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

It's like Brexit all over again.

Why is inevitable? Other countries who imposed border restrictions and quarantine for people coming into the country don't have the problems we do. The numbers are there.

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine.

What about viruses that have been contained before they became epidemics?

It's such a pity the WHO where against travel bans and refused to class it as a pandemic.

So anyway, we close all borders. Then what?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

It's like Brexit all over again.

Why is inevitable? Other countries who imposed border restrictions and quarantine for people coming into the country don't have the problems we do. The numbers are there.

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine.

What about viruses that have been contained before they became epidemics?

Which virus, with the same infection rate, have actually been contained?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *asyukMan over a year ago

West London

Has anyone actually said this?

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/uk-races-to-secure-nurse-ppe-for-coronavirus-as-global-supplies-run-low-11-02-2020/

Yes, even the WHO admitted it.

The WHO admitted their is a shortage and instructed countries not to stockpile. To those that seem to think that the WHO is the gospel, should we have stockpiled?

Hopefully next time.

However, the government is telling us that there isn't a problem and that apparently staff maybe using equipment unnecessarily which conflicts with what their experience actually appears to be.

The fact that rural areas who have not had significant infection rates yet aren't having a problem is not that helpful.

It is easy to say what should have been done with hindsight and without consideration/inclusion of the reasons and constraints affecting/influencing the decisions made.

That's why I said these were factors for next time.

A pandemic is only declared retrospectively, meaning "it is now a pandemic".

I didn't say that there was no effort to produce PPE in the UK. It is being produced. What I can say that companies that I have contact with were moving to produce both PPE and ventilators before there was any government coordination.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oggoneMan over a year ago

Derry

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

It's like Brexit all over again.

Why is inevitable? Other countries who imposed border restrictions and quarantine for people coming into the country don't have the problems we do. The numbers are there.

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine.

What about viruses that have been contained before they became epidemics?

Which virus, with the same infection rate, have actually been contained? "

They're pretty good at controlling ebola outbreaks now. Unfortunately there are still isolated outbreaks due to people eating bush meat.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

It's like Brexit all over again.

Why is inevitable? Other countries who imposed border restrictions and quarantine for people coming into the country don't have the problems we do. The numbers are there.

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine.

What about viruses that have been contained before they became epidemics?

You pointed out earlier, the UKs high infection rate and deaths is the fault of Sadiq Khan. Although you went quiet on that one when you realised what you had done

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

How different the world was 7 weeks ago?

Here's a thread I started then.

https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/politics/982005

It makes for a very amusing read. Here was this crazy nut saying COVID-19 wasn't just a sniffle. Put on your tinfoil hat dude!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

Has anyone actually said this?

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/uk-races-to-secure-nurse-ppe-for-coronavirus-as-global-supplies-run-low-11-02-2020/

Yes, even the WHO admitted it.

The WHO admitted their is a shortage and instructed countries not to stockpile. To those that seem to think that the WHO is the gospel, should we have stockpiled?

Hopefully next time.

However, the government is telling us that there isn't a problem and that apparently staff maybe using equipment unnecessarily which conflicts with what their experience actually appears to be.

The fact that rural areas who have not had significant infection rates yet aren't having a problem is not that helpful.

It is easy to say what should have been done with hindsight and without consideration/inclusion of the reasons and constraints affecting/influencing the decisions made.

That's why I said these were factors for next time.

A pandemic is only declared retrospectively, meaning "it is now a pandemic".

So the people we are supposed to rely on to pre warn us, cant do so until after the fact but we expect our gov to declare it before it's happened?

When did the gov begin to coordinate extra production?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine.

So are you saying they should have just let it spread?

If not how would your exit plan look?

Let it spread in a controlled manner whilst shielding the vulnerable and protecting the nhs until the threat is dramatically reduced through herd immunity.

What's your solution?"

Well that is what we are doing now in a controlled way....the tap is running slow. So in a way I agree but I think social distancing will be here a long time and I'm wondering how the shielded group is going to cope when the tap is running faster, as it's a long time for some. But in about 4 weeks time we will be planning the exit route and it's a shame that the death rate will be around 3000 per day before it happens.

But it could and should have been managed a lot better.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Has anyone actually said this?

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/uk-races-to-secure-nurse-ppe-for-coronavirus-as-global-supplies-run-low-11-02-2020/

Yes, even the WHO admitted it.

The WHO admitted their is a shortage and instructed countries not to stockpile. To those that seem to think that the WHO is the gospel, should we have stockpiled?

Hopefully next time.

However, the government is telling us that there isn't a problem and that apparently staff maybe using equipment unnecessarily which conflicts with what their experience actually appears to be.

The fact that rural areas who have not had significant infection rates yet aren't having a problem is not that helpful.

It is easy to say what should have been done with hindsight and without consideration/inclusion of the reasons and constraints affecting/influencing the decisions made.

That's why I said these were factors for next time.

A pandemic is only declared retrospectively, meaning "it is now a pandemic".

So the people we are supposed to rely on to pre warn us, cant do so until after the fact but we expect our gov to declare it before it's happened?

When did the gov begin to coordinate extra production?"

I just posted a thread from 7 weeks ago. If you read that thread the virus had just hit Italy.

Here's something I wrote...

"Doing the math... if just 10% of our UK population gets infected (6 million) and just 20% of those infected become serious or critical (1.2 million), I wonder how well equipped they will be to handle that increase in patients? I'm hoping and praying that a vaccine comes out soon because I really don't want to find out the answer"

If someone like me who has no interest in pandemics at all says this, why can't a government even consider it?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

It's like Brexit all over again.

Why is inevitable? Other countries who imposed border restrictions and quarantine for people coming into the country don't have the problems we do. The numbers are there.

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine.

What about viruses that have been contained before they became epidemics?

Which virus, with the same infection rate, have actually been contained?

They're pretty good at controlling ebola outbreaks now. Unfortunately there are still isolated outbreaks due to people eating bush meat."

Ebola is not transmitted the same as covid and as such is far less contagious.

I've just tried to find the infection rate but couldn't. I did however find a source that says the normal flu is actually 1.3, not 1.8.

This equates to 13 people being infected after 10 steps of infection from one person. We cant control the flu, what chance have we got when with covid the figure is 59,000 after the same 10 steps from the original infection?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

Has anyone actually said this?

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/uk-races-to-secure-nurse-ppe-for-coronavirus-as-global-supplies-run-low-11-02-2020/

Yes, even the WHO admitted it.

The WHO admitted their is a shortage and instructed countries not to stockpile. To those that seem to think that the WHO is the gospel, should we have stockpiled?

Hopefully next time.

However, the government is telling us that there isn't a problem and that apparently staff maybe using equipment unnecessarily which conflicts with what their experience actually appears to be.

The fact that rural areas who have not had significant infection rates yet aren't having a problem is not that helpful.

It is easy to say what should have been done with hindsight and without consideration/inclusion of the reasons and constraints affecting/influencing the decisions made.

That's why I said these were factors for next time.

A pandemic is only declared retrospectively, meaning "it is now a pandemic".

So the people we are supposed to rely on to pre warn us, cant do so until after the fact but we expect our gov to declare it before it's happened?

When did the gov begin to coordinate extra production?

I just posted a thread from 7 weeks ago. If you read that thread the virus had just hit Italy.

Here's something I wrote...

If someone like me who has no interest in pandemics at all says this, why can't a government even consider it?"

I could ask how do, as lay person think that you have the heads up on the government? Do you really think nobody in gov was thinking the same?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

It's like Brexit all over again.

Why is inevitable? Other countries who imposed border restrictions and quarantine for people coming into the country don't have the problems we do. The numbers are there.

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine.

What about viruses that have been contained before they became epidemics?

Which virus, with the same infection rate, have actually been contained?

They're pretty good at controlling ebola outbreaks now. Unfortunately there are still isolated outbreaks due to people eating bush meat.

Ebola is not transmitted the same as covid and as such is far less contagious.

I've just tried to find the infection rate but couldn't. I did however find a source that says the normal flu is actually 1.3, not 1.8.

You won't find it described as an infection rate. What you are talking about is referred to by epidemiologists as R0 (pronounced R Naught).

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Just to help...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number

You will find COVID-19 1.4 to 3.8

SARS (pandemic avoided) 2 - 5.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *oggoneMan over a year ago

Derry

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

It's like Brexit all over again.

Why is inevitable? Other countries who imposed border restrictions and quarantine for people coming into the country don't have the problems we do. The numbers are there.

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine.

What about viruses that have been contained before they became epidemics?

Which virus, with the same infection rate, have actually been contained?

They're pretty good at controlling ebola outbreaks now. Unfortunately there are still isolated outbreaks due to people eating bush meat.

Ebola is not transmitted the same as covid and as such is far less contagious.

I've just tried to find the infection rate but couldn't. I did however find a source that says the normal flu is actually 1.3, not 1.8.

Ebola has an R(0) of 1.9, Covid 19 is 2.8. The fatality rates are 50% to Covid 19s 3.8%. Pick your poison

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"Just to help...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number

You will find COVID-19 1.4 to 3.8

SARS (pandemic avoided) 2 - 5."

I've just been reading that. So what is the difference between SARS not turning into a pandemic, reaching very little beyond its epicentre, and covid spreading around the world?

Imo the difference is that with covid it was not properly contained in the first instance. Now it's out there we have lost that initial advantage of being able to stop it in its tracks because those tracks lead all over the world.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Has anyone actually said this?

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/public-health/uk-races-to-secure-nurse-ppe-for-coronavirus-as-global-supplies-run-low-11-02-2020/

Yes, even the WHO admitted it.

The WHO admitted their is a shortage and instructed countries not to stockpile. To those that seem to think that the WHO is the gospel, should we have stockpiled?

Hopefully next time.

However, the government is telling us that there isn't a problem and that apparently staff maybe using equipment unnecessarily which conflicts with what their experience actually appears to be.

The fact that rural areas who have not had significant infection rates yet aren't having a problem is not that helpful.

It is easy to say what should have been done with hindsight and without consideration/inclusion of the reasons and constraints affecting/influencing the decisions made.

That's why I said these were factors for next time.

A pandemic is only declared retrospectively, meaning "it is now a pandemic".

So the people we are supposed to rely on to pre warn us, cant do so until after the fact but we expect our gov to declare it before it's happened?

When did the gov begin to coordinate extra production?

I just posted a thread from 7 weeks ago. If you read that thread the virus had just hit Italy.

Here's something I wrote...

If someone like me who has no interest in pandemics at all says this, why can't a government even consider it?

I could ask how do, as lay person think that you have the heads up on the government? Do you really think nobody in gov was thinking the same? "

At the risk of repeating myself when I first posted on COVID-19 I could not find a thread for it, so I posted on a year old thread about the old virus. That was around 20 January I think. At that stage the first reports of the outbreak had come through. My words were "I think the world stands on the edge of a precipice".

I shouldn't have been posting on fab, I should have be shorting airline stocks.

If you go back to the thread I posted you will see everyone thought I was a nutter.

My theory then is the same as my theory now. That the Big Money that controls our governments did not want to panic the markets. At that stage I was suggesting that the WHO refused to declare it a pandemic because Trump was threatening to pull their funding. Sounded like a conspiracy theory until lo.... Trump threatened to pull their funding.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just to help...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number

You will find COVID-19 1.4 to 3.8

SARS (pandemic avoided) 2 - 5.

I've just been reading that. So what is the difference between SARS not turning into a pandemic, reaching very little beyond its epicentre, and covid spreading around the world?

Yeah you are dead right. I came to that conclusion in January. It has always been obvious. Makes you think why governments around the world weren't scrambling.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This is the last thing I wrote on that thread...

"They say this has an R0 of 2 to 3. So I fear you are correct

This is just the beginning."

That was late Feb I think...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"The disconnect seems to be Hancock is saying there is enough to go round.

The bma and nurses are saying there isnt

This isnt about how difficult it is to source the equipment..that is a different debate.

He has also suggested there is no proven link between lack of ppe and nurses/doctors dying which seems to have gone under the radar.

I can see the disconnect. Who is right? We just don't know right now but yeah I'd be more inclined to believe a doctor over a politician.

Did we just agree? Surely not

By the way, the head of NHS England has just stated that they are doing all they can? What are we to make of that?

I think it shows a level of discord behind the scenes and the finger pointing doesnt help.The comments about the ppe have clearly angered a lot of the very people,who are dying on the front line.

Not the wisest course of action.

I think there is probally a level of distrust between health care and the gmnt which isnt helping aswell.

Yet again I agree with you. He didn't need to make those comments publicly regardless of whether it's true or not.

But, the head of NHS is on the same page as government so do we blame the NHS or the government?

We dont know what's going on behind the scenes but it would be very unlikely The head of the NHS would be

publically critical of the gmnt as it's technically their boss.

Just to clarify, he isn't the head. I got that wrong, he is the medical director.

If he can't be critical should he even hold the position?

As you said we don't know what's going on behind the scenes so maybe we shouldn't be so critical full stop.

The problem is that some only see the issue in isolation.

The bma have blamed the gmnt

The royal college of nurses have blamed the gmnt.

The nurses union have pointed the finger of blame at the gmnt.

Harry Truman had a famous motto. "The buck stops here".

It is the government who decides to close borders. It is the government who decided to keep schools and workplaces open.

You cannot blame people for panicking when they see their government embarking on a strategy of spreading a virus as far and wide as possible.

It's like Brexit all over again.

Why is inevitable? Other countries who imposed border restrictions and quarantine for people coming into the country don't have the problems we do. The numbers are there.

The countries with low numbers have not solved anything unless they are going to close the whole country for as long as it takes to find a vaccine.

What about viruses that have been contained before they became epidemics?

Which virus, with the same infection rate, have actually been contained?

They're pretty good at controlling ebola outbreaks now. Unfortunately there are still isolated outbreaks due to people eating bush meat.

Ebola is not transmitted the same as covid and as such is far less contagious.

I've just tried to find the infection rate but couldn't. I did however find a source that says the normal flu is actually 1.3, not 1.8.

Ebola has an R(0) of 1.9, Covid 19 is 2.8. The fatality rates are 50% to Covid 19s 3.8%. Pick your poison"

So far less contagious, and harsh as this sounds people dying are far easier to track and trace than people with just a cough or even asymptomatic.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *typical guyMan over a year ago

wigan

"Just to help...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number

You will find COVID-19 1.4 to 3.8

SARS (pandemic avoided) 2 - 5.

I've just been reading that. So what is the difference between SARS not turning into a pandemic, reaching very little beyond its epicentre, and covid spreading around the world?

Yeah you are dead right. I came to that conclusion in January. It has always been obvious. Makes you think why governments around the world weren't scrambling. "

In the first instance I believe it was covered up by china and downplayed by the WHO. Then it was too late and many didn't/don't believe it. Our gov is past the denial phase, the virus is happening, like it or not. We can only try to minimise the damage.