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Androgyny / non-binary
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"Anyone here particularly into non-binary people? Or any others who identify as non-binary themselves? Asking because I seem to be a new experience to most that we play with, being an androgynous presenting person with a "female body". I enjoy sex in the same ways many guys do - giving with my hands / strap on. I'd be interested to hear about others experiences identifying as, or playing with, androgynous people .... If you hadnt played with a non-binary person before, what would you find useful to know before hand? Meg" I don't think it would be a problem for me because any negatives that came from a liason would be from the non binary person eg if we were attracted to each other and she clicked into feminine mode then surely it's as good as what comes | |||
"No worries Beans, I'm always happy to explain as it's a new concept to many people. A non-binary person doesn't identify as male or female - they might feel androgynous, both masculine and feminine, neither, or different things on different days. Some take hormones or have surgeries to help their bodies and brain chemistry to better match their gender identity. Some don't change their bodies at all, but will express their gender through their clothes and body language etc. Make sense?" I’ve seen this on a documentary It was a female who one day can wake up and feel male and will live her day in male mode but woke the next day feeling feminine | |||
"No worries Beans, I'm always happy to explain as it's a new concept to many people. A non-binary person doesn't identify as male or female - they might feel androgynous, both masculine and feminine, neither, or different things on different days. Some take hormones or have surgeries to help their bodies and brain chemistry to better match their gender identity. Some don't change their bodies at all, but will express their gender through their clothes and body language etc. Make sense?" Yes, thanks for that. Something new each day and all that! | |||
"The energy would be different ... The way I hold my body and the way I touch and move. For example I wouldnt arch my back and wiggle my arse, I would be grinding with my hips. My touch can be teasing or firm, but not delicate. I would feel uncomfortable having my "boobs" played with, but enjoy kissing and caressing someone else's." So a non binary person is someone who doesn't adhere to male or female gender stereotypes? | |||
"The energy would be different ... The way I hold my body and the way I touch and move. For example I wouldnt arch my back and wiggle my arse, I would be grinding with my hips. My touch can be teasing or firm, but not delicate. I would feel uncomfortable having my "boobs" played with, but enjoy kissing and caressing someone else's." thankyou | |||
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"It goes deeper than that ... Plenty of people dont adhere to gender stereotypes but still feel female or male. Non-binary people don't feel either gender, that's the key difference." So if I conform completely to male stereotypes but don't "feel male", I'm non binary? | |||
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"Anyone here particularly into non-binary people? Or any others who identify as non-binary themselves? Asking because I seem to be a new experience to most that we play with, being an androgynous presenting person with a "female body". I enjoy sex in the same ways many guys do - giving with my hands / strap on. I'd be interested to hear about others experiences identifying as, or playing with, androgynous people .... If you hadnt played with a non-binary person before, what would you find useful to know before hand? MegI don't think it would be a problem for me because any negatives that came from a liason would be from the non binary person eg if we were attracted to each other and she clicked into feminine mode then surely it's as good as what comes " That's the thing though - the person wouldn't "click into" male or female mode ... I don't suddenly become girly and want to have my "tits" played with or my "pussy" fucked when I start playing. If someone starts treating me differently when we play (eg as a girl) that would be a major turn off and we wouldn't go any further! Surely you'd expect consistency from play mates, not many people completely change their behaviour once you're getting intimate with them ... With the exception of sub/Dom roleplay for people who are the opposite in their day to day interactions. | |||
"It goes deeper than that ... Plenty of people dont adhere to gender stereotypes but still feel female or male. Non-binary people don't feel either gender, that's the key difference. So if I conform completely to male stereotypes but don't "feel male", I'm non binary? " Yes you could be  only you can determine that though. If you feel like it describes your experience, then yes that label might fit you, should you choose to use it. | |||
"We think that would be a really interesting dynamic to explore..." I've been told it's hot and like the best of both worlds  | |||
"It goes deeper than that ... Plenty of people dont adhere to gender stereotypes but still feel female or male. Non-binary people don't feel either gender, that's the key difference. So if I conform completely to male stereotypes but don't "feel male", I'm non binary? Yes you could be only you can determine that though. If you feel like it describes your experience, then yes that label might fit you, should you choose to use it."So "non binary" has no objective definition? Anyone can make up their own definition? | |||
"We think that would be a really interesting dynamic to explore... I've been told it's hot and like the best of both worlds "Yeah, that's what's really appealing... must find out more  | |||
"It goes deeper than that ... Plenty of people dont adhere to gender stereotypes but still feel female or male. Non-binary people don't feel either gender, that's the key difference. So if I conform completely to male stereotypes but don't "feel male", I'm non binary? Yes you could be only you can determine that though. If you feel like it describes your experience, then yes that label might fit you, should you choose to use it.
So "non binary" has no objective definition? Anyone can make up their own definition? "No its not a meaningless word, it does have an objective definition - not identifying with the male/female binary, so that the person's gender identity doesn't fit neatly into one of those two boxes. The application of the label is the subjective part - it can only be done by the individual. I can't tell you that you are non-binary anymore than I can tell you you are attracted to men or women or both. It depends on how YOU feel. | |||
"It goes deeper than that ... Plenty of people dont adhere to gender stereotypes but still feel female or male. Non-binary people don't feel either gender, that's the key difference. So if I conform completely to male stereotypes but don't "feel male", I'm non binary? Yes you could be only you can determine that though. If you feel like it describes your experience, then yes that label might fit you, should you choose to use it.
So "non binary" has no objective definition? Anyone can make up their own definition?
No its not a meaningless word, it does have an objective definition - not identifying with the male/female binary, so that the person's gender identity doesn't fit neatly into one of those two boxes.
The application of the label is the subjective part - it can only be done by the individual. I can't tell you that you are non-binary anymore than I can tell you you are attracted to men or women or both. It depends on how YOU feel."But if the definition is "not identifying with the male - female binary" then the definition is completely subjective as it depends purely on my internal feelings rather than any objective reality. It must follow that if I was the most stereotypically male person on earth and I changed nothing at all about my life other than starting to say I identified as non binary, that would mean I was non binary would it not? | |||
"Anyone here particularly into non-binary people? Or any others who identify as non-binary themselves? Asking because I seem to be a new experience to most that we play with, being an androgynous presenting person with a "female body". I enjoy sex in the same ways many guys do - giving with my hands / strap on. I'd be interested to hear about others experiences identifying as, or playing with, androgynous people .... If you hadnt played with a non-binary person before, what would you find useful to know before hand? MegI don't think it would be a problem for me because any negatives that came from a liason would be from the non binary person eg if we were attracted to each other and she clicked into feminine mode then surely it's as good as what comes That's the thing though - the person wouldn't "click into" male or female mode ... I don't suddenly become girly and want to have my "tits" played with or my "pussy" fucked when I start playing. If someone starts treating me differently when we play (eg as a girl) that would be a major turn off and we wouldn't go any further! Surely you'd expect consistency from play mates, not many people completely change their behaviour once you're getting intimate with them ... With the exception of sub/Dom roleplay for people who are the opposite in their day to day interactions." ahhhh OK understand now it can change at any given moment ,that possibly isn't a good situation but if you're aware of it at least you will be courteous when proceedings come to an end ,you would need a very understanding guy to accept it in mid flow mind | |||
"We think that would be a really interesting dynamic to explore... I've been told it's hot and like the best of both worlds
Yeah, that's what's really appealing... must find out more "Check out some of Jizz Lee's porn for some hot non-binary action, or the bonus hole boys to see transguys! | |||
"Anyone here particularly into non-binary people? Or any others who identify as non-binary themselves? Asking because I seem to be a new experience to most that we play with, being an androgynous presenting person with a "female body". I enjoy sex in the same ways many guys do - giving with my hands / strap on. I'd be interested to hear about others experiences identifying as, or playing with, androgynous people .... If you hadnt played with a non-binary person before, what would you find useful to know before hand? MegI don't think it would be a problem for me because any negatives that came from a liason would be from the non binary person eg if we were attracted to each other and she clicked into feminine mode then surely it's as good as what comes That's the thing though - the person wouldn't "click into" male or female mode ... I don't suddenly become girly and want to have my "tits" played with or my "pussy" fucked when I start playing. If someone starts treating me differently when we play (eg as a girl) that would be a major turn off and we wouldn't go any further! Surely you'd expect consistency from play mates, not many people completely change their behaviour once you're getting intimate with them ... With the exception of sub/Dom roleplay for people who are the opposite in their day to day interactions.ahhhh OK understand now it can change at any given moment ,that possibly isn't a good situation but if you're aware of it at least you will be courteous when proceedings come to an end ,you would need a very understanding guy to accept it in mid flow mind " You might need to re-read my post - the whole point is it DOESN'T change mid-flow ... I'm androgynous and play in a way that fits that. | |||
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"It goes deeper than that ... Plenty of people dont adhere to gender stereotypes but still feel female or male. Non-binary people don't feel either gender, that's the key difference. So if I conform completely to male stereotypes but don't "feel male", I'm non binary? Yes you could be only you can determine that though. If you feel like it describes your experience, then yes that label might fit you, should you choose to use it.
So "non binary" has no objective definition? Anyone can make up their own definition?
No its not a meaningless word, it does have an objective definition - not identifying with the male/female binary, so that the person's gender identity doesn't fit neatly into one of those two boxes.
The application of the label is the subjective part - it can only be done by the individual. I can't tell you that you are non-binary anymore than I can tell you you are attracted to men or women or both. It depends on how YOU feel.
But if the definition is "not identifying with the male - female binary" then the definition is completely subjective as it depends purely on my internal feelings rather than any objective reality.
It must follow that if I was the most stereotypically male person on earth and I changed nothing at all about my life other than starting to say I identified as non binary, that would mean I was non binary would it not?
"If you didn't actually feel non-binary it would be pretty meaningless and pointless though. Just like if you're a straight guy who suddenly tells people he's gay, unless you are genuinely attracted to men that means nothing. Straight and gay are also terms that have objective meanings but can only be applied subjectively depending on the person's feelings. | |||
"Maybe I just dont get it at all but I have read the posts here and feel completely confused A non binary person does not identify as either Male or female. So then they must identify as a 3rd gender? They wear clothes or even surgery to make them feel more to there feelings ie to identify as either more a female or more a Male As you being a female and being non binary you like the feeling of being masculine rather than feminine so you identify as a Male the same way as potentially a lesbian would being attracted to other females and like to be dominant. So to me what is the difference in being non binary to either gay or lesbian or even trans? It might be that I am just ignorant to it all but I really just dont get it. By the way I am all up for be who you want to be etc and not trying to be rude in any way " Like I said above, it's essentially a feeling in people's head and the definition is circular. You're non binary if you feel non binary. You're actual objective behaviour and presentation is irrelevant. | |||
"It goes deeper than that ... Plenty of people dont adhere to gender stereotypes but still feel female or male. Non-binary people don't feel either gender, that's the key difference. So if I conform completely to male stereotypes but don't "feel male", I'm non binary? Yes you could be only you can determine that though. If you feel like it describes your experience, then yes that label might fit you, should you choose to use it.
So "non binary" has no objective definition? Anyone can make up their own definition?
No its not a meaningless word, it does have an objective definition - not identifying with the male/female binary, so that the person's gender identity doesn't fit neatly into one of those two boxes.
The application of the label is the subjective part - it can only be done by the individual. I can't tell you that you are non-binary anymore than I can tell you you are attracted to men or women or both. It depends on how YOU feel.
But if the definition is "not identifying with the male - female binary" then the definition is completely subjective as it depends purely on my internal feelings rather than any objective reality.
It must follow that if I was the most stereotypically male person on earth and I changed nothing at all about my life other than starting to say I identified as non binary, that would mean I was non binary would it not?
If you didn't actually feel non-binary it would be pretty meaningless and pointless though. Just like if you're a straight guy who suddenly tells people he's gay, unless you are genuinely attracted to men that means nothing. Straight and gay are also terms that have objective meanings but can only be applied subjectively depending on the person's feelings."How do you feel non binary? | |||
"Maybe I just dont get it at all but I have read the posts here and feel completely confused A non binary person does not identify as either Male or female. So then they must identify as a 3rd gender? They wear clothes or even surgery to make them feel more to there feelings ie to identify as either more a female or more a Male As you being a female and being non binary you like the feeling of being masculine rather than feminine so you identify as a Male the same way as potentially a lesbian would being attracted to other females and like to be dominant. So to me what is the difference in being non binary to either gay or lesbian or even trans? It might be that I am just ignorant to it all but I really just dont get it. By the way I am all up for be who you want to be etc and not trying to be rude in any way " Quite a lot of people get gender and sexuality confused, but they're actually separate. Lesbians are by definition women attracted to women, whether they are girly girls or butch, they self identify as women. Straught women are women attracted to men. All have the same gender (woman) but different sexualities. I like to think of it as sexuality is who you like to go to bed with, gender is who you go to bed as, whether other people are involved or not. Non-binary is a subset of transgender, ie not identifying with your birth sex, but it's often harder to understand because it doesn't fit into how our world is set up for 2 genders, or for how we currently use language. I for myself don't feel like a 3rd gender, I just feel like a mix of masculine and feminine. Some people do identify with some other 3rd gender, but I can't speak for their experience. I hold my body and dress in a more masculine way because I have a female shape, so it balances out, but it's actually very difficult to express yourself as non-binary through clothes as most people will interpret your looks as either masculine or feminine, rather than a blend of both, and treat you as either "sir" or "madam". For me, someone not being able to determine if I'm male or female just by looking at me would actually be great! I like the ambiguity. They don't need to know the shape of my genitals unless we're potentially going to have sex. Does that clear things up at all? I'm always happy to explain these things to people who are curious as long as they are respectful. It's in my own interest really, as the more people who understand and accept trans and non-binary, the more potential play mates I have haha! | |||
"Maybe I just dont get it at all but I have read the posts here and feel completely confused A non binary person does not identify as either Male or female. So then they must identify as a 3rd gender? They wear clothes or even surgery to make them feel more to there feelings ie to identify as either more a female or more a Male As you being a female and being non binary you like the feeling of being masculine rather than feminine so you identify as a Male the same way as potentially a lesbian would being attracted to other females and like to be dominant. So to me what is the difference in being non binary to either gay or lesbian or even trans? It might be that I am just ignorant to it all but I really just dont get it. By the way I am all up for be who you want to be etc and not trying to be rude in any way Like I said above, it's essentially a feeling in people's head and the definition is circular. You're non binary if you feel non binary. You're actual objective behaviour and presentation is irrelevant. " You're straight if you feel straight and gay if you feel gay. You like pizza if you like pizza. It's just a word to describe a feeling. But that feeling of being non-binary can have huge implications for how a person navigates the world, and even more so for how they engage with sex. If we don't have words for feelings and preferences we can't talk about them! | |||
"Maybe I just dont get it at all but I have read the posts here and feel completely confused A non binary person does not identify as either Male or female. So then they must identify as a 3rd gender? They wear clothes or even surgery to make them feel more to there feelings ie to identify as either more a female or more a Male As you being a female and being non binary you like the feeling of being masculine rather than feminine so you identify as a Male the same way as potentially a lesbian would being attracted to other females and like to be dominant. So to me what is the difference in being non binary to either gay or lesbian or even trans? It might be that I am just ignorant to it all but I really just dont get it. By the way I am all up for be who you want to be etc and not trying to be rude in any way Quite a lot of people get gender and sexuality confused, but they're actually separate. Lesbians are by definition women attracted to women, whether they are girly girls or butch, they self identify as women. Straught women are women attracted to men. All have the same gender (woman) but different sexualities. I like to think of it as sexuality is who you like to go to bed with, gender is who you go to bed as, whether other people are involved or not. Non-binary is a subset of transgender, ie not identifying with your birth sex, but it's often harder to understand because it doesn't fit into how our world is set up for 2 genders, or for how we currently use language. I for myself don't feel like a 3rd gender, I just feel like a mix of masculine and feminine. Some people do identify with some other 3rd gender, but I can't speak for their experience. I hold my body and dress in a more masculine way because I have a female shape, so it balances out, but it's actually very difficult to express yourself as non-binary through clothes as most people will interpret your looks as either masculine or feminine, rather than a blend of both, and treat you as either "sir" or "madam". For me, someone not being able to determine if I'm male or female just by looking at me would actually be great! I like the ambiguity. They don't need to know the shape of my genitals unless we're potentially going to have sex. Does that clear things up at all? I'm always happy to explain these things to people who are curious as long as they are respectful. It's in my own interest really, as the more people who understand and accept trans and non-binary, the more potential play mates I have haha!" That's what I don't get. As you described you're actually a woman who doesn't comply with some female stereotypes. How do you differ from any other women who don't comply with female stereotypes. I'm a man who doesn't comply with a lot of male stereotypes. Am I non binary? | |||
" I have some experienced with this due to my partner being NB but they also identify as asexual so the experience is more about intimacy and sensual play as opposed to sexual play. I do find there is a bit more conscious effort required due to keeping within the boundaries such as with their breast the breast itself can be kissed but excessive fondling and the nipple area is generally to be avoided. " The two of you must've developed some brilliant communication skills! Kudos for finding intimacy that works for you both. I've never been with someone who is asexual, so haven't needed to have those conversations. | |||
"Maybe I just dont get it at all but I have read the posts here and feel completely confused A non binary person does not identify as either Male or female. So then they must identify as a 3rd gender? They wear clothes or even surgery to make them feel more to there feelings ie to identify as either more a female or more a Male As you being a female and being non binary you like the feeling of being masculine rather than feminine so you identify as a Male the same way as potentially a lesbian would being attracted to other females and like to be dominant. So to me what is the difference in being non binary to either gay or lesbian or even trans? It might be that I am just ignorant to it all but I really just dont get it. By the way I am all up for be who you want to be etc and not trying to be rude in any way Quite a lot of people get gender and sexuality confused, but they're actually separate. Lesbians are by definition women attracted to women, whether they are girly girls or butch, they self identify as women. Straught women are women attracted to men. All have the same gender (woman) but different sexualities. I like to think of it as sexuality is who you like to go to bed with, gender is who you go to bed as, whether other people are involved or not. Non-binary is a subset of transgender, ie not identifying with your birth sex, but it's often harder to understand because it doesn't fit into how our world is set up for 2 genders, or for how we currently use language. I for myself don't feel like a 3rd gender, I just feel like a mix of masculine and feminine. Some people do identify with some other 3rd gender, but I can't speak for their experience. I hold my body and dress in a more masculine way because I have a female shape, so it balances out, but it's actually very difficult to express yourself as non-binary through clothes as most people will interpret your looks as either masculine or feminine, rather than a blend of both, and treat you as either "sir" or "madam". For me, someone not being able to determine if I'm male or female just by looking at me would actually be great! I like the ambiguity. They don't need to know the shape of my genitals unless we're potentially going to have sex. Does that clear things up at all? I'm always happy to explain these things to people who are curious as long as they are respectful. It's in my own interest really, as the more people who understand and accept trans and non-binary, the more potential play mates I have haha! That's what I don't get. As you described you're actually a woman who doesn't comply with some female stereotypes. How do you differ from any other women who don't comply with female stereotypes. I'm a man who doesn't comply with a lot of male stereotypes. Am I non binary? " I have XX chromosomes (probably, I've never checked, who knows??) But I don't feel like a woman, therefore I am not a woman. You calling yourself a man tells me you're probably not non-binary. The intention of my post wasn't to argue the validity of my existence as a non-binary person, but to discuss how play and intimacy might differ for non-binary people . We exist and we can be super hot to play with, if you're respectful enough to get to know us a bit first! | |||
"Maybe I just dont get it at all but I have read the posts here and feel completely confused A non binary person does not identify as either Male or female. So then they must identify as a 3rd gender? They wear clothes or even surgery to make them feel more to there feelings ie to identify as either more a female or more a Male As you being a female and being non binary you like the feeling of being masculine rather than feminine so you identify as a Male the same way as potentially a lesbian would being attracted to other females and like to be dominant. So to me what is the difference in being non binary to either gay or lesbian or even trans? It might be that I am just ignorant to it all but I really just dont get it. By the way I am all up for be who you want to be etc and not trying to be rude in any way Like I said above, it's essentially a feeling in people's head and the definition is circular. You're non binary if you feel non binary. You're actual objective behaviour and presentation is irrelevant. You're straight if you feel straight and gay if you feel gay. You like pizza if you like pizza. It's just a word to describe a feeling. But that feeling of being non-binary can have huge implications for how a person navigates the world, and even more so for how they engage with sex. If we don't have words for feelings and preferences we can't talk about them!" I don't accept that it's possible to define concepts just on the basis of individuals subjective feelings. Thus If say I identify as gay because I feel gay, but I've only ever had sex with members of the opposite sex and only seek to have sex with members of the opposite sex, you'd say I wasn't gay would you not, despite my identifying as gay? Thats because being gay has an objective definition and I wouldn't satisfy it. So with non binary, for it to be a meaningful term, we'd need an objective definition of the term that didn't just depend on a feeling in people's heads and which would mean that, in theory at least, we could say some people who say they are non binary are not non binary. I've never seen such a definition. | |||
"Maybe I just dont get it at all but I have read the posts here and feel completely confused A non binary person does not identify as either Male or female. So then they must identify as a 3rd gender? They wear clothes or even surgery to make them feel more to there feelings ie to identify as either more a female or more a Male As you being a female and being non binary you like the feeling of being masculine rather than feminine so you identify as a Male the same way as potentially a lesbian would being attracted to other females and like to be dominant. So to me what is the difference in being non binary to either gay or lesbian or even trans? It might be that I am just ignorant to it all but I really just dont get it. By the way I am all up for be who you want to be etc and not trying to be rude in any way Quite a lot of people get gender and sexuality confused, but they're actually separate. Lesbians are by definition women attracted to women, whether they are girly girls or butch, they self identify as women. Straught women are women attracted to men. All have the same gender (woman) but different sexualities. I like to think of it as sexuality is who you like to go to bed with, gender is who you go to bed as, whether other people are involved or not. Non-binary is a subset of transgender, ie not identifying with your birth sex, but it's often harder to understand because it doesn't fit into how our world is set up for 2 genders, or for how we currently use language. I for myself don't feel like a 3rd gender, I just feel like a mix of masculine and feminine. Some people do identify with some other 3rd gender, but I can't speak for their experience. I hold my body and dress in a more masculine way because I have a female shape, so it balances out, but it's actually very difficult to express yourself as non-binary through clothes as most people will interpret your looks as either masculine or feminine, rather than a blend of both, and treat you as either "sir" or "madam". For me, someone not being able to determine if I'm male or female just by looking at me would actually be great! I like the ambiguity. They don't need to know the shape of my genitals unless we're potentially going to have sex. Does that clear things up at all? I'm always happy to explain these things to people who are curious as long as they are respectful. It's in my own interest really, as the more people who understand and accept trans and non-binary, the more potential play mates I have haha! That's what I don't get. As you described you're actually a woman who doesn't comply with some female stereotypes. How do you differ from any other women who don't comply with female stereotypes. I'm a man who doesn't comply with a lot of male stereotypes. Am I non binary? I have XX chromosomes (probably, I've never checked, who knows??) But I don't feel like a woman, therefore I am not a woman. You calling yourself a man tells me you're probably not non-binary. The intention of my post wasn't to argue the validity of my existence as a non-binary person, but to discuss how play and intimacy might differ for non-binary people . We exist and we can be super hot to play with, if you're respectful enough to get to know us a bit first!" Obviously you exist as I talking to you. I'm not debating that. What's this "woman" thing that you don't feel like? Is there a non circular definition of "woman" that isn't based on physical characteristics? | |||
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"Maybe I just dont get it at all but I have read the posts here and feel completely confused A non binary person does not identify as either Male or female. So then they must identify as a 3rd gender? They wear clothes or even surgery to make them feel more to there feelings ie to identify as either more a female or more a Male As you being a female and being non binary you like the feeling of being masculine rather than feminine so you identify as a Male the same way as potentially a lesbian would being attracted to other females and like to be dominant. So to me what is the difference in being non binary to either gay or lesbian or even trans? It might be that I am just ignorant to it all but I really just dont get it. By the way I am all up for be who you want to be etc and not trying to be rude in any way Like I said above, it's essentially a feeling in people's head and the definition is circular. You're non binary if you feel non binary. You're actual objective behaviour and presentation is irrelevant. You're straight if you feel straight and gay if you feel gay. You like pizza if you like pizza. It's just a word to describe a feeling. But that feeling of being non-binary can have huge implications for how a person navigates the world, and even more so for how they engage with sex. If we don't have words for feelings and preferences we can't talk about them! I don't accept that it's possible to define concepts just on the basis of individuals subjective feelings. Thus If say I identify as gay because I feel gay, but I've only ever had sex with members of the opposite sex and only seek to have sex with members of the opposite sex, you'd say I wasn't gay would you not, despite my identifying as gay? Thats because being gay has an objective definition and I wouldn't satisfy it. So with non binary, for it to be a meaningful term, we'd need an objective definition of the term that didn't just depend on a feeling in people's heads and which would mean that, in theory at least, we could say some people who say they are non binary are not non binary. I've never seen such a definition. " Ok let's turn it on its head... Do you feel like a woman? If you can say no, then you have some internal concept of what it means to be a woman, and you can tell that it doesn't apply to you. Therefore I wouldn't refer to you as a woman because you don't self identify as one. How would it feel for you if everyone in your life began referring to you as "she", addressed you as madam, expected you to act on typically feminine ways? Would that be uncomfortable? | |||
"As long as you're being you it wouldn't make a difference. " Awesome! People being unapologetically and confidently themselves is so hot! | |||
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"Androgyny....I do fancy a fair few....Ruby Rose number one crush x"Yes they are so hot! Wish I could raid their wardrobe .... | |||
"Maybe I just dont get it at all but I have read the posts here and feel completely confused A non binary person does not identify as either Male or female. So then they must identify as a 3rd gender? They wear clothes or even surgery to make them feel more to there feelings ie to identify as either more a female or more a Male As you being a female and being non binary you like the feeling of being masculine rather than feminine so you identify as a Male the same way as potentially a lesbian would being attracted to other females and like to be dominant. So to me what is the difference in being non binary to either gay or lesbian or even trans? It might be that I am just ignorant to it all but I really just dont get it. By the way I am all up for be who you want to be etc and not trying to be rude in any way Like I said above, it's essentially a feeling in people's head and the definition is circular. You're non binary if you feel non binary. You're actual objective behaviour and presentation is irrelevant. You're straight if you feel straight and gay if you feel gay. You like pizza if you like pizza. It's just a word to describe a feeling. But that feeling of being non-binary can have huge implications for how a person navigates the world, and even more so for how they engage with sex. If we don't have words for feelings and preferences we can't talk about them! I don't accept that it's possible to define concepts just on the basis of individuals subjective feelings. Thus If say I identify as gay because I feel gay, but I've only ever had sex with members of the opposite sex and only seek to have sex with members of the opposite sex, you'd say I wasn't gay would you not, despite my identifying as gay? Thats because being gay has an objective definition and I wouldn't satisfy it. So with non binary, for it to be a meaningful term, we'd need an objective definition of the term that didn't just depend on a feeling in people's heads and which would mean that, in theory at least, we could say some people who say they are non binary are not non binary. I've never seen such a definition. Ok let's turn it on its head... Do you feel like a woman? If you can say no, then you have some internal concept of what it means to be a woman, and you can tell that it doesn't apply to you. Therefore I wouldn't refer to you as a woman because you don't self identify as one. How would it feel for you if everyone in your life began referring to you as "she", addressed you as madam, expected you to act on typically feminine ways? Would that be uncomfortable?" Obviously people can identify in any way they like, but I thought we'd agreed that people can be wrong about their identities and that identities are not purely subjective - for example if I only fancy women but identify as gay, my personal identification is clearly incorrect. If that's right, then there has to be some objective definition of "non binary" for "non binary" to be a meaningful term. The only possible objective definition of "non binary" I have ever seen is basically not identifying with either gender stereotype. However, I don't identify with gender stereotypes and you tell me I'm not non binary because I don't say I am, and we're back to purely subjective definitions. So do you have an objective definition of non binary? I am not having a go by the way. Im genuinely fascinated by this area but have never, I am afraid, been able to understand the arguments. | |||
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"Maybe I just dont get it at all but I have read the posts here and feel completely confused A non binary person does not identify as either Male or female. So then they must identify as a 3rd gender? They wear clothes or even surgery to make them feel more to there feelings ie to identify as either more a female or more a Male As you being a female and being non binary you like the feeling of being masculine rather than feminine so you identify as a Male the same way as potentially a lesbian would being attracted to other females and like to be dominant. So to me what is the difference in being non binary to either gay or lesbian or even trans? It might be that I am just ignorant to it all but I really just dont get it. By the way I am all up for be who you want to be etc and not trying to be rude in any way Like I said above, it's essentially a feeling in people's head and the definition is circular. You're non binary if you feel non binary. You're actual objective behaviour and presentation is irrelevant. You're straight if you feel straight and gay if you feel gay. You like pizza if you like pizza. It's just a word to describe a feeling. But that feeling of being non-binary can have huge implications for how a person navigates the world, and even more so for how they engage with sex. If we don't have words for feelings and preferences we can't talk about them! I don't accept that it's possible to define concepts just on the basis of individuals subjective feelings. Thus If say I identify as gay because I feel gay, but I've only ever had sex with members of the opposite sex and only seek to have sex with members of the opposite sex, you'd say I wasn't gay would you not, despite my identifying as gay? Thats because being gay has an objective definition and I wouldn't satisfy it. So with non binary, for it to be a meaningful term, we'd need an objective definition of the term that didn't just depend on a feeling in people's heads and which would mean that, in theory at least, we could say some people who say they are non binary are not non binary. I've never seen such a definition. Ok let's turn it on its head... Do you feel like a woman? If you can say no, then you have some internal concept of what it means to be a woman, and you can tell that it doesn't apply to you. Therefore I wouldn't refer to you as a woman because you don't self identify as one. How would it feel for you if everyone in your life began referring to you as "she", addressed you as madam, expected you to act on typically feminine ways? Would that be uncomfortable? Obviously people can identify in any way they like, but I thought we'd agreed that people can be wrong about their identities and that identities are not purely subjective - for example if I only fancy women but identify as gay, my personal identification is clearly incorrect. If that's right, then there has to be some objective definition of "non binary" for "non binary" to be a meaningful term. The only possible objective definition of "non binary" I have ever seen is basically not identifying with either gender stereotype. However, I don't identify with gender stereotypes and you tell me I'm not non binary because I don't say I am, and we're back to purely subjective definitions. So do you have an objective definition of non binary? I am not having a go by the way. Im genuinely fascinated by this area but have never, I am afraid, been able to understand the arguments. " And I didn't say you ARE non-binary, I said that if you don't FEEL male then you MIGHT be non-binary, but only you can determine that. What's the harm in self-identifying? Faith is self identifying. Is a Christian only a Christian if they go to church X times a year? Or is their self-identified belief in a Christian god sufficient? I would argue the latter. Some defintions of concepts are based on feelings rather than behaviour. Sexuality is an example - you can be a closeted gay man engaging in straight sex for reasons of safety or internalised homophobia, but if you only ever felt attraction to men and never to women, and you didnt enjoy the sex with women, you would be gay no matter what your behaviour. The sex would be "straight" but the person would still be gay. Some definitions need appropriate behaviours in order to apply - eg I could claim to be vegan, but if I started eating meat I would no longer fit the definition, so my claim would be meaningless. I could keep calling myself vegan while munching on a hamburger but it evidently wouldn't be true, and frankly would be pointless. | |||
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"Maybe I just dont get it at all but I have read the posts here and feel completely confused A non binary person does not identify as either Male or female. So then they must identify as a 3rd gender? They wear clothes or even surgery to make them feel more to there feelings ie to identify as either more a female or more a Male As you being a female and being non binary you like the feeling of being masculine rather than feminine so you identify as a Male the same way as potentially a lesbian would being attracted to other females and like to be dominant. So to me what is the difference in being non binary to either gay or lesbian or even trans? It might be that I am just ignorant to it all but I really just dont get it. By the way I am all up for be who you want to be etc and not trying to be rude in any way Like I said above, it's essentially a feeling in people's head and the definition is circular. You're non binary if you feel non binary. You're actual objective behaviour and presentation is irrelevant. You're straight if you feel straight and gay if you feel gay. You like pizza if you like pizza. It's just a word to describe a feeling. But that feeling of being non-binary can have huge implications for how a person navigates the world, and even more so for how they engage with sex. If we don't have words for feelings and preferences we can't talk about them! I don't accept that it's possible to define concepts just on the basis of individuals subjective feelings. Thus If say I identify as gay because I feel gay, but I've only ever had sex with members of the opposite sex and only seek to have sex with members of the opposite sex, you'd say I wasn't gay would you not, despite my identifying as gay? Thats because being gay has an objective definition and I wouldn't satisfy it. So with non binary, for it to be a meaningful term, we'd need an objective definition of the term that didn't just depend on a feeling in people's heads and which would mean that, in theory at least, we could say some people who say they are non binary are not non binary. I've never seen such a definition. Ok let's turn it on its head... Do you feel like a woman? If you can say no, then you have some internal concept of what it means to be a woman, and you can tell that it doesn't apply to you. Therefore I wouldn't refer to you as a woman because you don't self identify as one. How would it feel for you if everyone in your life began referring to you as "she", addressed you as madam, expected you to act on typically feminine ways? Would that be uncomfortable? Obviously people can identify in any way they like, but I thought we'd agreed that people can be wrong about their identities and that identities are not purely subjective - for example if I only fancy women but identify as gay, my personal identification is clearly incorrect. If that's right, then there has to be some objective definition of "non binary" for "non binary" to be a meaningful term. The only possible objective definition of "non binary" I have ever seen is basically not identifying with either gender stereotype. However, I don't identify with gender stereotypes and you tell me I'm not non binary because I don't say I am, and we're back to purely subjective definitions. So do you have an objective definition of non binary? I am not having a go by the way. Im genuinely fascinated by this area but have never, I am afraid, been able to understand the arguments. And I didn't say you ARE non-binary, I said that if you don't FEEL male then you MIGHT be non-binary, but only you can determine that. What's the harm in self-identifying? Faith is self identifying. Is a Christian only a Christian if they go to church X times a year? Or is their self-identified belief in a Christian god sufficient? I would argue the latter. Some defintions of concepts are based on feelings rather than behaviour. Sexuality is an example - you can be a closeted gay man engaging in straight sex for reasons of safety or internalised homophobia, but if you only ever felt attraction to men and never to women, and you didnt enjoy the sex with women, you would be gay no matter what your behaviour. The sex would be "straight" but the person would still be gay. Some definitions need appropriate behaviours in order to apply - eg I could claim to be vegan, but if I started eating meat I would no longer fit the definition, so my claim would be meaningless. I could keep calling myself vegan while munching on a hamburger but it evidently wouldn't be true, and frankly would be pointless." We've reached an ontological impasse here. My view is that for abscract concepts to be meaningful they can't be based on pure self definition. If the definition of being non binary is feeling or identifying as non binary, then the concept is literally meaningless as what person A feels when they say they are non binary may be completely different to what Person B feels when they say they are non binary. If I said I identified as a Christian but said I didn't believe in God or that Jesus existed, you'd say I wasn't a Christian wouldn't you, no matter how much I said I identified as one? If that's right, doesn't there have to be some objective definition of non binary that means that there is a possibility some people who say they are non binary are wrong. If so, I'd be pleased to know what the definition is. | |||
" We've reached an ontological impasse here. My view is that for abscract concepts to be meaningful they can't be based on pure self definition. If the definition of being non binary is feeling or identifying as non binary, then the concept is literally meaningless as what person A feels when they say they are non binary may be completely different to what Person B feels when they say they are non binary. If I said I identified as a Christian but said I didn't believe in God or that Jesus existed, you'd say I wasn't a Christian wouldn't you, no matter how much I said I identified as one? If that's right, doesn't there have to be some objective definition of non binary that means that there is a possibility some people who say they are non binary are wrong. If so, I'd be pleased to know what the definition is. " I do understand what you're saying here but as the OP states; there are many self defining concepts in this world that we accept as being from the mind as opposed to being physical. Often the experience of something makes it real in itself. I cannot tell you how you experience something nor how it feels for you, its not a leap then to recognise that a person's gender is a unique experience for them. I recognise that binary gender is something that people are programmed to see and to anticipate, the outward signs of what the majority recognise as male and female are comfortable and easy for most. Non binary is experiential on the behalf of the individual, theres no quantifiable 'proof' as you seem to be asking for, just faith and belief that the person in question recognises and knows themselves far better than you can. Sorry for jumping in and answering for you OP. | |||
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" We've reached an ontological impasse here. My view is that for abscract concepts to be meaningful they can't be based on pure self definition. If the definition of being non binary is feeling or identifying as non binary, then the concept is literally meaningless as what person A feels when they say they are non binary may be completely different to what Person B feels when they say they are non binary. If I said I identified as a Christian but said I didn't believe in God or that Jesus existed, you'd say I wasn't a Christian wouldn't you, no matter how much I said I identified as one? If that's right, doesn't there have to be some objective definition of non binary that means that there is a possibility some people who say they are non binary are wrong. If so, I'd be pleased to know what the definition is. I do understand what you're saying here but as the OP states; there are many self defining concepts in this world that we accept as being from the mind as opposed to being physical. Often the experience of something makes it real in itself. I cannot tell you how you experience something nor how it feels for you, its not a leap then to recognise that a person's gender is a unique experience for them. I recognise that binary gender is something that people are programmed to see and to anticipate, the outward signs of what the majority recognise as male and female are comfortable and easy for most. Non binary is experiential on the behalf of the individual, theres no quantifiable 'proof' as you seem to be asking for, just faith and belief that the person in question recognises and knows themselves far better than you can. Sorry for jumping in and answering for you OP. " This, this, this. You expressed it better than I could, thank you teamonkey :D | |||
"Maybe I just dont get it at all but I have read the posts here and feel completely confused A non binary person does not identify as either Male or female. So then they must identify as a 3rd gender? They wear clothes or even surgery to make them feel more to there feelings ie to identify as either more a female or more a Male As you being a female and being non binary you like the feeling of being masculine rather than feminine so you identify as a Male the same way as potentially a lesbian would being attracted to other females and like to be dominant. So to me what is the difference in being non binary to either gay or lesbian or even trans? It might be that I am just ignorant to it all but I really just dont get it. By the way I am all up for be who you want to be etc and not trying to be rude in any way Like I said above, it's essentially a feeling in people's head and the definition is circular. You're non binary if you feel non binary. You're actual objective behaviour and presentation is irrelevant. You're straight if you feel straight and gay if you feel gay. You like pizza if you like pizza. It's just a word to describe a feeling. But that feeling of being non-binary can have huge implications for how a person navigates the world, and even more so for how they engage with sex. If we don't have words for feelings and preferences we can't talk about them! I don't accept that it's possible to define concepts just on the basis of individuals subjective feelings. Thus If say I identify as gay because I feel gay, but I've only ever had sex with members of the opposite sex and only seek to have sex with members of the opposite sex, you'd say I wasn't gay would you not, despite my identifying as gay? Thats because being gay has an objective definition and I wouldn't satisfy it. So with non binary, for it to be a meaningful term, we'd need an objective definition of the term that didn't just depend on a feeling in people's heads and which would mean that, in theory at least, we could say some people who say they are non binary are not non binary. I've never seen such a definition. Ok let's turn it on its head... Do you feel like a woman? If you can say no, then you have some internal concept of what it means to be a woman, and you can tell that it doesn't apply to you. Therefore I wouldn't refer to you as a woman because you don't self identify as one. How would it feel for you if everyone in your life began referring to you as "she", addressed you as madam, expected you to act on typically feminine ways? Would that be uncomfortable? Obviously people can identify in any way they like, but I thought we'd agreed that people can be wrong about their identities and that identities are not purely subjective - for example if I only fancy women but identify as gay, my personal identification is clearly incorrect. If that's right, then there has to be some objective definition of "non binary" for "non binary" to be a meaningful term. The only possible objective definition of "non binary" I have ever seen is basically not identifying with either gender stereotype. However, I don't identify with gender stereotypes and you tell me I'm not non binary because I don't say I am, and we're back to purely subjective definitions. So do you have an objective definition of non binary? I am not having a go by the way. Im genuinely fascinated by this area but have never, I am afraid, been able to understand the arguments. And I didn't say you ARE non-binary, I said that if you don't FEEL male then you MIGHT be non-binary, but only you can determine that. What's the harm in self-identifying? Faith is self identifying. Is a Christian only a Christian if they go to church X times a year? Or is their self-identified belief in a Christian god sufficient? I would argue the latter. Some defintions of concepts are based on feelings rather than behaviour. Sexuality is an example - you can be a closeted gay man engaging in straight sex for reasons of safety or internalised homophobia, but if you only ever felt attraction to men and never to women, and you didnt enjoy the sex with women, you would be gay no matter what your behaviour. The sex would be "straight" but the person would still be gay. Some definitions need appropriate behaviours in order to apply - eg I could claim to be vegan, but if I started eating meat I would no longer fit the definition, so my claim would be meaningless. I could keep calling myself vegan while munching on a hamburger but it evidently wouldn't be true, and frankly would be pointless." Very interesting thread OP.
This post made sense to me but then the vegan bit seemed to contradict the bits above.
I'll keep reading. | |||
I wouldn't rule someone out on the basis that they identify as non-binary. If I'm attracted to someone then I'm attracted to someone. A good face, personality and attitude are far more important in deciding attractiveness.
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" We've reached an ontological impasse here. My view is that for abscract concepts to be meaningful they can't be based on pure self definition. If the definition of being non binary is feeling or identifying as non binary, then the concept is literally meaningless as what person A feels when they say they are non binary may be completely different to what Person B feels when they say they are non binary. If I said I identified as a Christian but said I didn't believe in God or that Jesus existed, you'd say I wasn't a Christian wouldn't you, no matter how much I said I identified as one? If that's right, doesn't there have to be some objective definition of non binary that means that there is a possibility some people who say they are non binary are wrong. If so, I'd be pleased to know what the definition is. I do understand what you're saying here but as the OP states; there are many self defining concepts in this world that we accept as being from the mind as opposed to being physical. Often the experience of something makes it real in itself. I cannot tell you how you experience something nor how it feels for you, its not a leap then to recognise that a person's gender is a unique experience for them. I recognise that binary gender is something that people are programmed to see and to anticipate, the outward signs of what the majority recognise as male and female are comfortable and easy for most. Non binary is experiential on the behalf of the individual, theres no quantifiable 'proof' as you seem to be asking for, just faith and belief that the person in question recognises and knows themselves far better than you can. Sorry for jumping in and answering for you OP. " Well said
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"Anyone here particularly into non-binary people? Or any others who identify as non-binary themselves? Asking because I seem to be a new experience to most that we play with, being an androgynous presenting person with a "female body". I enjoy sex in the same ways many guys do - giving with my hands / strap on. I'd be interested to hear about others experiences identifying as, or playing with, androgynous people .... If you hadnt played with a non-binary person before, what would you find useful to know before hand? Meg" I'd ask questions about things I don't understand. Like stone sexuality. If I still didn't understand it I wouldn't meet them as I feel I'm not the person they're looking for. | |||
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"I think the problem this movement has is that a small number of people are saying something is non-binary when the overwhelming majority of the population sees it as the most fundamental binary there is. I'm certainly not going to start telling people that they can't decide how they define themselves, but therein lies the problem: the non-binary community seem to want to tell the majority to recalibrate their understanding and acceptance of gender... I don't think they should do that." I can see your point to a degree, for the vast majority of people though it's a case of pronouns and acceptance. As you said though; "its the most fundamental binary there is," that's where many people get stuck because they refuse to accept change or deviation of thinking based on someone else's experience. Ultimately though I don't think acceptance is that hard, especially as for most, gender is pronouns and not a question of sex. | |||
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"You have the wrong anatomy for me to be attracted, but I'd be very hesitant about getting intimate with someone who identifies in this way. It sounds far too complex for me. I prefer my sex to be a more straightforward affair " Oh Lord I think it would be fun and very hot | |||
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"Anyone here particularly into non-binary people? Or any others who identify as non-binary themselves? Asking because I seem to be a new experience to most that we play with, being an androgynous presenting person with a "female body". I enjoy sex in the same ways many guys do - giving with my hands / strap on. I'd be interested to hear about others experiences identifying as, or playing with, androgynous people .... If you hadnt played with a non-binary person before, what would you find useful to know before hand? Meg" I identify as a male, I guess....but unofficially I have so many female traits and I love having them. It may sound corny, but these days I just see myself as 'me'. I'm not heavily attracted to males, but have always struggled during penetrative sex...like it doesn't seem wholly natural to me.   | |||
"My heart skips a beat when I see someone cute and I can tell if what gender they are. " *...can't tell what gender they are. Ought to proofread | |||
"Anyone here particularly into non-binary people? Or any others who identify as non-binary themselves? Asking because I seem to be a new experience to most that we play with, being an androgynous presenting person with a "female body". I enjoy sex in the same ways many guys do - giving with my hands / strap on. I'd be interested to hear about others experiences identifying as, or playing with, androgynous people .... If you hadnt played with a non-binary person before, what would you find useful to know before hand? Meg I identify as a male, I guess....but unofficially I have so many female traits and I love having them. It may sound corny, but these days I just see myself as 'me'. I'm not heavily attracted to males, but have always struggled during penetrative sex...like it doesn't seem wholly natural to me. "If you have a cock, you're male | |||
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"Anyone here particularly into non-binary people? Or any others who identify as non-binary themselves? Asking because I seem to be a new experience to most that we play with, being an androgynous presenting person with a "female body". I enjoy sex in the same ways many guys do - giving with my hands / strap on. I'd be interested to hear about others experiences identifying as, or playing with, androgynous people .... If you hadnt played with a non-binary person before, what would you find useful to know before hand? Meg I identify as a male, I guess....but unofficially I have so many female traits and I love having them. It may sound corny, but these days I just see myself as 'me'. I'm not heavily attracted to males, but have always struggled during penetrative sex...like it doesn't seem wholly natural to me. "I've read your profile to try and better understand what you've said here. It's interesting. Hope you're not sad. You are indeed 'you'. That's good. | |||
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