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D/s and feminism
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By *lcee OP Woman
over a year ago
Leeds |
Ok, so I’m a published smut author out in the real world. I write under two different pseudonyms.
One is a light, frothy, friends-to-lovers or lovers reunited romance erotica, although always with a D/s dynamic (and often menage - because who doesn’t love an MMf or MfM?  ). The other is very dark erotica of the type I can’t say without inviting a forum ban.
I recently noticed an upsurge in those criticising the writing of myself and other authors I know in the same fields, as anti-feminist.
Apparently, we’re glorifying traditional gender roles and domestic abuse (and other, darker things, in the case of dark erotica). This has reached a point that some of my fellow authors are leaving social media, our marketing lifeblood, to avoid what feels like overwhelming and constant attacks.
So, it has me thinking. I’ve always considered myself a feminist as I believe that true equality is the freedom to choose what role you want, not the one forced on you.
Whichever way you cut it though, D/s (Male/female), domestic discipline and through to the more extreme Gorean dynamics very much uphold traditional gender roles and could be seen as abuse by outside parties.
So I thought it might be fun to debate it. Who here feels that D/s is absolutely compatible with modern values (if done properly) and who is itching to disagree and thinks it, as a colleague put it the other day, is unhealthy?
Random Sunday night debate, folks!
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I feel that D/s is completely compatible with *our* life. I also feel its completely compatible with modern life. I don't know why anyone feels the need to get involved with other people's consensual and legal sexual preferences. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I feel that D/s is completely compatible with *our* life. I also feel its completely compatible with modern life. I don't know why anyone feels the need to get involved with other people's consensual and legal sexual preferences."
This  |
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I think it can be done well, or open to abuse, and it's always been that way. I think literature about it can empower or disempower. Too hard to generalise.
As with all things, maybe more, it requires respect, communication, and being on the same page. |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
Hmmm now there's something to get my teeth into on a Sunday evening!! 
Couple of thoughts, the first of which possibly comes from a position of ignorance as I Don't read a great deal of erotic literature of any type, but do you think the criticism is general, or just from the various "sex communities"? Either way is it possibly as a result of 50 Shades and the plethora of similar titles that have appeared and adorned the shelves at Tesco since? Kind of a backlash against the popularity, which often happens with any trend?
As for how D/s sits with either current or traditional values, absolutely it can if approached from a position of equality and consent - there are many who say that a submissive holds the power in a D/s relationship, I actually disagree with that and think the power is held equally by all participants, and that is how it should be - Dom/mes and submissives are just opposite sides of the same coin is how I see it.
To throw another thought into the mix, why is it there a tendency to think male = dominant and female = submissive - us male submissives exist too you know |
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By *lcee OP Woman
over a year ago
Leeds |
"Hmmm now there's something to get my teeth into on a Sunday evening!!
Couple of thoughts, the first of which possibly comes from a position of ignorance as I Don't read a great deal of erotic literature of any type, but do you think the criticism is general, or just from the various "sex communities"? Either way is it possibly as a result of 50 Shades and the plethora of similar titles that have appeared and adorned the shelves at Tesco since? Kind of a backlash against the popularity, which often happens with any trend?
As for how D/s sits with either current or traditional values, absolutely it can if approached from a position of equality and consent - there are many who say that a submissive holds the power in a D/s relationship, I actually disagree with that and think the power is held equally by all participants, and that is how it should be - Dom/mes and submissives are just opposite sides of the same coin is how I see it.
To throw another thought into the mix, why is it there a tendency to think male = dominant and female = submissive - us male submissives exist too you know "
I know, I know and we love you too...but for some reason F/m literature is very much still a niche thing, whereas M/f is very common. I don’t know why. I do, however, know a couple of very talented writers in that sub-genre, should you ever wish to give them a peruse
The criticism seems to come almost entirely from an anti D/s brigade that is growing in voice, if not in numbers. Their argument is that we are helping to perpetuate the idea that males must be dominant and women must obey them or be punished. If it is a backlash against 50 Shades...they must not realise that we despise that book and its bastard offspring more than they do |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think as long as it’s consensual, informed and causes no harmful effects on the wellbeing of those involved, then it’s perfectly compatible.
The problem is when lines become blurred about the message of consent, and it can be people who think they’re “advocates” for the subs in d/s relationships and know what’s in their best interest who speak on their behalf.
They should really speak to those involved- I believe in equality for the sexes, and don’t think that my being submissive to my partner means I’m not being a feminist. If anything I’m fighting for my rights, as a woman, to choose my own sexuality. In the past I have been dominant with men, never submissive, the men actively wanted me to dominate them. Then I met Mr. I can honestly say that it’s the man, not the traditional gender expectations that make me choose this lifestyle.
I actually feel more empowered now, as I have made this choice. We discussed what I wanted, and this is it, and have finally found a forum in which I feel accepted.
I worked within the fet community so met a lot of d/s couples (at the time I was in a very vanilla relationship) so saw first hand the backlash that a certain trilogy received and caused for those in the community. I didn’t understand as I wasn’t living it, so friends told me why the trilogy was problematic. Some of them are “militant feminists” (how they describe themselves) who are in the d/s community, in both capacities- they objected to issues of informed consent, not that it was a m/f d/s relationship.
I haven’t read them tbh, more to do with trying and feeling uninspired a couple of pages in and was just as bored with the first film- sadly it opened up a can of worms. Now with the thisisnotconsent movement (which I agree with btw) there are sadly some jumping on the bandwagon and being just as ill informed, as those who write bad fantasy literature.
Sorry for waffling xx |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
"Hmmm now there's something to get my teeth into on a Sunday evening!!
Couple of thoughts, the first of which possibly comes from a position of ignorance as I Don't read a great deal of erotic literature of any type, but do you think the criticism is general, or just from the various "sex communities"? Either way is it possibly as a result of 50 Shades and the plethora of similar titles that have appeared and adorned the shelves at Tesco since? Kind of a backlash against the popularity, which often happens with any trend?
As for how D/s sits with either current or traditional values, absolutely it can if approached from a position of equality and consent - there are many who say that a submissive holds the power in a D/s relationship, I actually disagree with that and think the power is held equally by all participants, and that is how it should be - Dom/mes and submissives are just opposite sides of the same coin is how I see it.
To throw another thought into the mix, why is it there a tendency to think male = dominant and female = submissive - us male submissives exist too you know
I know, I know and we love you too...but for some reason F/m literature is very much still a niche thing, whereas M/f is very common. I don’t know why. I do, however, know a couple of very talented writers in that sub-genre, should you ever wish to give them a peruse
The criticism seems to come almost entirely from an anti D/s brigade that is growing in voice, if not in numbers. Their argument is that we are helping to perpetuate the idea that males must be dominant and women must obey them or be punished. If it is a backlash against 50 Shades...they must not realise that we despise that book and its bastard offspring more than they do "
I think that just as the rise of the internet has opened people's eyes to "other" forms of sexuality in a serious way, rather than the snigger "we made our excuses and left" versions reported by the tabloids before the internet, it's also going to have two flip sides - firstly those that see it and think it's for them without actually understanding it (which leads to abusive situations) and secondly to those that see it, decide it's outrageous, without understanding it, and who then go on to condemn it in the ways you are seeing.
We see this here regularly, and in fact have done so on threads this weekend - including one where it was asserted that almost all those interested in BDSM have mental health issues!!
The key is of course tolerance and understanding - I don't expect everyone to understand BDSM and can understand why some might be horrified at the thought of some aspects of it because of that lack of understanding - however you would hope that a level of acceptance could be shown for those that clearly do understand it and grasp it, rather than condemnation - sadly though all too often that is not the case. |
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"Hmmm now there's something to get my teeth into on a Sunday evening!!
Couple of thoughts, the first of which possibly comes from a position of ignorance as I Don't read a great deal of erotic literature of any type, but do you think the criticism is general, or just from the various "sex communities"? Either way is it possibly as a result of 50 Shades and the plethora of similar titles that have appeared and adorned the shelves at Tesco since? Kind of a backlash against the popularity, which often happens with any trend?
As for how D/s sits with either current or traditional values, absolutely it can if approached from a position of equality and consent - there are many who say that a submissive holds the power in a D/s relationship, I actually disagree with that and think the power is held equally by all participants, and that is how it should be - Dom/mes and submissives are just opposite sides of the same coin is how I see it.
To throw another thought into the mix, why is it there a tendency to think male = dominant and female = submissive - us male submissives exist too you know
I know, I know and we love you too...but for some reason F/m literature is very much still a niche thing, whereas M/f is very common. I don’t know why. I do, however, know a couple of very talented writers in that sub-genre, should you ever wish to give them a peruse
The criticism seems to come almost entirely from an anti D/s brigade that is growing in voice, if not in numbers. Their argument is that we are helping to perpetuate the idea that males must be dominant and women must obey them or be punished. If it is a backlash against 50 Shades...they must not realise that we despise that book and its bastard offspring more than they do
I think that just as the rise of the internet has opened people's eyes to "other" forms of sexuality in a serious way, rather than the snigger "we made our excuses and left" versions reported by the tabloids before the internet, it's also going to have two flip sides - firstly those that see it and think it's for them without actually understanding it (which leads to abusive situations) and secondly to those that see it, decide it's outrageous, without understanding it, and who then go on to condemn it in the ways you are seeing.
We see this here regularly, and in fact have done so on threads this weekend - including one where it was asserted that almost all those interested in BDSM have mental health issues!!
The key is of course tolerance and understanding - I don't expect everyone to understand BDSM and can understand why some might be horrified at the thought of some aspects of it because of that lack of understanding - however you would hope that a level of acceptance could be shown for those that clearly do understand it and grasp it, rather than condemnation - sadly though all too often that is not the case."
I agree, your point about lack of tolerance and understanding is spot on and the main reason that neither of us ever explain or justify any of our preferences.
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All I know is I enjoy reading erotic literature and I love erotic sex too. We enjoy a little D/s role play and have switched roles occasionally. The only reason we both enjoy it is because we both consent to what we do. I’m disappointed that some of these ‘feminists’ don’t give me credit for knowing what I enjoy and having the ability to make choices for myself. Thankfully, my husband is more accepting and reaps the rewards.
I think reading and sex are both forms of escapism, it’s when I get to lose myself and forget about all the mundane crap in life, I love alllowing someone else to take control for those 2.5 minutes.
Lou x |
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By *ensualMan
over a year ago
Sutton |
I have sympathy with the feminists, the life of the porn star Linda Lovelace or model Sam Fox encapsulates the problem. Women in situations have been known to say how wonderful the situation is. However when they step aware from the situation say they were bullied and manipulated by the men to say how wonderful it was. Metoo# has opened many a can of worms.
I have concerns when you see young subs with much older doms, or women new to the scene in extreme situations. When it goes wrong it is normally a woman who is physically or psychologically damaged rarely (with a nod to male subs) a man.
That being said all pornography used to be banned because it was seen as bad.
All you can do is make the case for what you are doing and chalk the feminist comments down to worthy but ill informed criticism and in the same box as religious criticism. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think the world is wise enough to ignore the complainers, and just because they are vocal doesn't mean they are listened to.
I would imagine the 'bastard' 50 shades has been good for your industry, but nothing lasts forever. Maybe the trend has died, and demand is naturally falling for this reason? |
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"Ok, so I’m a published smut author out in the real world. I write under two different pseudonyms.
One is a light, frothy, friends-to-lovers or lovers reunited romance erotica, although always with a D/s dynamic (and often menage - because who doesn’t love an MMf or MfM? ). The other is very dark erotica of the type I can’t say without inviting a forum ban.
I recently noticed an upsurge in those criticising the writing of myself and other authors I know in the same fields, as anti-feminist.
Apparently, we’re glorifying traditional gender roles and domestic abuse (and other, darker things, in the case of dark erotica). This has reached a point that some of my fellow authors are leaving social media, our marketing lifeblood, to avoid what feels like overwhelming and constant attacks.
So, it has me thinking. I’ve always considered myself a feminist as I believe that true equality is the freedom to choose what role you want, not the one forced on you.
Whichever way you cut it though, D/s (Male/female), domestic discipline and through to the more extreme Gorean dynamics very much uphold traditional gender roles and could be seen as abuse by outside parties.
So I thought it might be fun to debate it. Who here feels that D/s is absolutely compatible with modern values (if done properly) and who is itching to disagree and thinks it, as a colleague put it the other day, is unhealthy?
Random Sunday night debate, folks!
"
When you look at it from the premise that the sub holds all the actual power it's a very different context for all types of play... |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
"When you look at it from the premise that the sub holds all the actual power it's a very different context for all types of play..."
I very often agree with you and what you have to say on the subject, however this is the exception to the rule - I disagree that the sub has *all* the power personally, yes a sub has the power to take their submission away (either symbolically and permanently by ending a D/s relationship or temporarily by using a safeword) - however a dominant has the power to give that submission back or refuse to accept it - so I prefer to think of the power/control being equally shared by all informed and consenting people involved on either side of the coin. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think a lot of feminists forget that the point of feminism is to get equality, and equality of choice is part of that.
I think a woman standing up (or laying down...) and saying “this is what I like, this is what I want and I won’t pretend otherwise” is feminist. It’s still not socially acceptable for women to openly enjoy sex, especially if it’s with more than one person or remotely kinky.
There are some D/s situations that are vulnerable and allow the man more power, especially in the context of a lack of actual consent a la 50 shades. However, that’s abusive. Not anti-feminist. And any kind of belief that women should avoid D/s situations because some men take advantage of vulnerable women isn’t being feminist, it’s bordering on victim blaming. It’s not down to women, feminist or otherwise, to stop men taking advantage of vulnerable people by changing the sexual preferences. That is anti feminist to me. |
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By *ensualMan
over a year ago
Sutton |
"When you look at it from the premise that the sub holds all the actual power it's a very different context for all types of play...
I very often agree with you and what you have to say on the subject, however this is the exception to the rule - I disagree that the sub has *all* the power personally, yes a sub has the power to take their submission away (either symbolically and permanently by ending a D/s relationship or temporarily by using a safeword) - however a dominant has the power to give that submission back or refuse to accept it - so I prefer to think of the power/control being equally shared by all informed and consenting people involved on either side of the coin."
I normally state that people confuse the right of an individual to decide what happens with their bodies as a case of sub controlling the D/S relationship.
The case I give was the first thread on D/S I read on Fab. The sub and dom were in a swinging relationship. The sub no longer wanted to swing but the dom was happy to swing and do so with or without the sub.
The sub wanted to unilaterally renegotiate the relationship but could not force the dom to change. This is because matters need to be mutually agreed.
As an practical example, what control in reality does a sub have when they are tied, gagged and blindfolded? I am not talking about theoretical control but in the moment control. All the sub has is hope and trust in the dom/me. |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
"I think a lot of feminists forget that the point of feminism is to get equality, and equality of choice is part of that.
I think a woman standing up (or laying down...) and saying “this is what I like, this is what I want and I won’t pretend otherwise” is feminist. It’s still not socially acceptable for women to openly enjoy sex, especially if it’s with more than one person or remotely kinky.
There are some D/s situations that are vulnerable and allow the man more power, especially in the context of a lack of actual consent a la 50 shades. However, that’s abusive. Not anti-feminist. And any kind of belief that women should avoid D/s situations because some men take advantage of vulnerable women isn’t being feminist, it’s bordering on victim blaming. It’s not down to women, feminist or otherwise, to stop men taking advantage of vulnerable people by changing the sexual preferences. That is anti feminist to me."
Can I just say bravo!! What an incredibly well thought out, and thought provoking, post - thank you |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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D/S play is completely compatible with modern values. Comments like its "unhealthy" show the ignorance of the person commenting. And for those that are ignorant of the kinky side of life, I'm sure it's easily seen as demeaning and disrespectful at the very least.
However, the level of trust and respect that are needed for true boundary pushing fun is way higher than in most vanilla relationships. It's unhealthy to deny who we are and not embrace our true selves. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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How many people who sneer at the 50 Shades books have actually read them all? 
I think they were great because they gave everyday women an 'excuse' to say they wanted to try new sex ideas. They could say the books made them do it- because nice girls don't like sex. Everyone knows that.
Christian gave Ana the confidence to try new things. By the end of the trilogy she's a totally different woman from at the start. She's confident and happy and he is supportive.
I thought feminism was about equality. Empowering women, not shaming them.
It appears that's only allowed if it fits in with the ideas of certain groups. |
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By *ensualMan
over a year ago
Sutton |
"How many people who sneer at the 50 Shades books have actually read them all?
I think they were great because they gave everyday women an 'excuse' to say they wanted to try new sex ideas. They could say the books made them do it- because nice girls don't like sex. Everyone knows that.
Christian gave Ana the confidence to try new things. By the end of the trilogy she's a totally different woman from at the start. She's confident and happy and he is supportive.
I thought feminism was about equality. Empowering women, not shaming them.
It appears that's only allowed if it fits in with the ideas of certain groups."
It is like criticising the Jack Reacher novels for getting military protocol wrong. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think it's worth pointing out that some of the poor defenceless submissive women we're talking about have very different lifestyles. Often it's a complete role reversal from their everyday life roles. And there's plenty of submissive men out there being well and truly fucked by there strap on wielding dommes. Are we also witnessing the emasculation of our society?
I also think that some view D/S play as just beating someone up. Dominant play isn't just about just leaving someone black and blue, in my opinion, it's one of the most attentive, reactionary and focused types of play you can ever experience. I love my partner, she is the most beautiful amazing person I've ever met and I know how much she gets from having my hand round her throat, I've felt the intensity that builds inside her when I pull her hair and spank her. I've seen her cum like never before and smile the biggest satisfied smile from some of the kinkiest fun.
It's about honesty, respect, pleasure and being true to ur inner self.
And aftercare, a word that should be used more often. What goes up, comes down. Just a thought... |
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