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A paradox
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Ok so check this...
We won't exist when we're dead and we can never exist again, so some say... right?
But we also didn't exist before we existed. So why then do we exist now?
It appears that non-existence is exactly the condition we were in before we existed. It doesn't guarantee that we won't exist again.
Grab a refreshment and have a seat and let's figure this out. Thoughts? |
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Actually we did exist before we existed, just not as humans. We are made up of carbon, oxygen etc those things exist and are necessary for humans to exist. Nobody knows what happens after we die and it's pure speculation. |
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"People ask me what I think an afterlife would be like. I always respond with "Remember what it was like before you were born?...its like that."
I'm not really a fan of any of the afterlives on offer. I'm too much of a free will junkie. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I have had a theory that when we die a baby is born and we have another existence, not connected to our former existence.
I was thinking of forming an existential religion with that as its main focal point, so people try their best to save the planet.
Imagine, fucking up a planet that ends up barely habitable, that you end up living in. |
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The Chinese philosopher Chang Tzu said how do you know you're not going to prefer being dead to being alive? You've not been alive for much longer than you have been alive, after all. He said that we are like children who have wandered away from our true home and will be happy when we get back there.
But, while you are in human form, have plenty of sex, that's one of the advantages of having a body! (That's our opinion, not the worthy Chang Tzu's!) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We are nothing more than ghosts, piloting meat covered skeletons, made of stardust...
All I know that in my current form
, I don't concern myself about what was before I was me ans what will be after I'm me.
I would be a touch happier if the molecules that make me up could rearrange themselves in a slightly more attractive manner, however I'm arranged in an order that I'm happy with and some others like.
At least my molecules aren't arranged to form Donald Trump  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"People ask me what I think an afterlife would be like. I always respond with "Remember what it was like before you were born?...its like that."
Good answer  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Ok so check this...
We won't exist when we're dead and we can never exist again, so some say... right?
But we also didn't exist before we existed. So why then do we exist now?
It appears that non-existence is exactly the condition we were in before we existed. It doesn't guarantee that we won't exist again.
Grab a refreshment and have a seat and let's figure this out. Thoughts? "
I'm gonna exit before I exist again  |
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"We are nothing more than ghosts, piloting meat covered skeletons, made of stardust...
All I know that in my current form
, I don't concern myself about what was before I was me ans what will be after I'm me.
I would be a touch happier if the molecules that make me up could rearrange themselves in a slightly more attractive manner, however I'm arranged in an order that I'm happy with and some others like.
At least my molecules aren't arranged to form Donald Trump "
I think very many of us are happy that our molecules aren't arranged that |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We’ve always existed, as someone earlier said. We’re made up of substances that have been around since forever. We change form constantly.
People think that “we” or “you” as we currently are (as a person) is the only combination of these elements that’s ever existed.
In reality everything you’re made of has been recycled again and again and again for billions of years, and the same will continue to happen forever until the universe ends |
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"We’ve always existed, as someone earlier said. We’re made up of substances that have been around since forever. We change form constantly.
People think that “we” or “you” as we currently are (as a person) is the only combination of these elements that’s ever existed.
In reality everything you’re made of has been recycled again and again and again for billions of years, and the same will continue to happen forever until the universe ends"
We are literally made, in part, of stars |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I believer we are spirit living in human bodies to learn and improve and we keep coming back, there is plenty of proof if you look for it. Young kids who have told parents facts about previous identities which have been checked out. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Actually we did exist before we existed, just not as humans. We are made up of carbon, oxygen etc those things exist and are necessary for humans to exist. Nobody knows what happens after we die and it's pure speculation. "
Nope, that didn't exist either! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Actually we did exist before we existed, just not as humans. We are made up of carbon, oxygen etc those things exist and are necessary for humans to exist. Nobody knows what happens after we die and it's pure speculation.
Nope, that didn't exist either! "
I'm irexistable |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"People ask me what I think an afterlife would be like. I always respond with "Remember what it was like before you were born?...it's like that."
But you were born. So if it's like that, then that means you have a great chance of being born or existing again.
Non-existence seems to lead to existence for some reason. Can someone help with this puzzle? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'm Agnostic.
Which taking some liberty with Google's definition is..
"A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God/Afterlife".
I added "Afterlife". Id say you could add "Beforelife" If you wanted to as well.
So I guess i'm not in a very good position to put my views across, seeing as I have none.
But I went ahead and tried anyway.. narcissistic little fuck that I am  |
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"Actually we did exist before we existed, just not as humans. We are made up of carbon, oxygen etc those things exist and are necessary for humans to exist. Nobody knows what happens after we die and it's pure speculation.
Nope, that didn't exist either! "
You think humans pre-date carbon and oxygen? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Actually we did exist before we existed, just not as humans. We are made up of carbon, oxygen etc those things exist and are necessary for humans to exist. Nobody knows what happens after we die and it's pure speculation.
Nope, that didn't exist either!
You think humans pre-date carbon and oxygen? "
No. Do you believe that carbon and oxygen predate the beginning of their own existences? In other words, do you believe the universe has always existed?
Do you believe humans can predate humans?
"Actually we did exist before we existed, just not as humans."
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"Actually we did exist before we existed, just not as humans. We are made up of carbon, oxygen etc those things exist and are necessary for humans to exist. Nobody knows what happens after we die and it's pure speculation.
Nope, that didn't exist either!
You think humans pre-date carbon and oxygen?
No. Do you believe that carbon and oxygen predate the beginning of their own existences? In other words, do you believe the universe has always existed?
Do you believe humans can predate humans?
Actually we did exist before we existed, just not as humans. "
No i don't believe that, but humans are made up of things that existed in the universe before there were humans. Humans need them to exist, the universe doesn't need humans to exist. I don't really follow what point you want to make sorry? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"People ask me what I think an afterlife would be like. I always respond with "Remember what it was like before you were born?...it's like that.
But you were born. So if it's like that, then that means you have a great chance of being born or existing again.
Non-existence seems to lead to existence for some reason. Can someone help with this puzzle? "
Only if all the exact bits that make up you come together precisely at the right moment |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form; for instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy.
So in simple terms every atom of you will last forever.However entropy rules the universe and everything will go from order to disorder.Which is the second law of thermodynamics.  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Actually we did exist before we existed, just not as humans. We are made up of carbon, oxygen etc those things exist and are necessary for humans to exist. Nobody knows what happens after we die and it's pure speculation.
Nope, that didn't exist either!
You think humans pre-date carbon and oxygen?
No. Do you believe that carbon and oxygen predate the beginning of their own existences? In other words, do you believe the universe has always existed?
Do you believe humans can predate humans?
Actually we did exist before we existed, just not as humans.
No i don't believe that, but humans are made up of things that existed in the universe before there were humans. Humans need them to exist, the universe doesn't need humans to exist. I don't really follow what point you want to make sorry? "
It's because you may be changing the definitions of terms as we develop our conversation. Ok a couple of points..
1. When I say that we will no longer exist when we die, "exist" here means you the human person that exists. Obviously the body you leave behind will exist and then disintegrate as well into another existence/form of carbon etc. Now, unless you are saying that you will always exist in the future as long as carbon exists since that's what we're made of, then let's be consistent and not claim that humans always existed just because the material that made them still exists. For example, when you said;
"Actually we did exist before we existed, just not as humans."
Who is the "we"? If by "we" you mean "humans" then we could not exist if it was "not as humans". Otherwise, who is "we"? I'm referring to humans.
Dinosaurs do not exist just because the material that made them still exists. They are extinct. Carbon exists. Dinosaurs do not. Just like carbon existed when humans did not.
2. But I'm saying that carbon also had a beginning. It did not always exist. Carbon was also non-existent. But now it exists. My point is that non-existence is not a more stable state than existence. It goes back to the question, "why is there something rather than nothing?"
You didn't exist so you should have stayed non-existent, but from non-existence you EXIST! That shouldn't be! So what I'm saying is that you cannot say for certain that when you no longer exist ie. when we die, that we cannot exist again or that that is the end, because we were already there before (in non-existence). Even after all the carbon and oxygen and all else atrophies and curls up and dissipates and no longer exists....Well that's right back where we started. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form; for instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy.
So in simple terms every atom of you will last forever.However entropy rules the universe and everything will go from order to disorder.Which is the second law of thermodynamics. "
Atoms also have a beginning and an end. I'm not talking about atoms. I'm talking about the exact atomic configurations, re-configurations, patterns and ultimately consciousness that is "you".
The system to which you refer (universe) had a beginning and has an end. It too did not exist and will not always exist. As a system, it will die. I really appreciate that you limited this concept of created and destroyed energy to the system itself because it cannot be proven that the universe existed as energy eternally and that it's energy even has anywhere else to go. I agree with these concepts of continuation of energy in different forms. But not a continuation of the forms and the consciousness. I don't understand why we have this tendency to change definitions like that in the same discussion. Survival is about survival of the bundle of consciousness we call "me". Not survival of base particles. We're not the sum of our parts, and even if we are, once the parts are disintegrated, so is the sum.
So I'll make it easier. The universe will die. But that isn't a guarantee that it cannot exist again. Really, what control do any of us have over our existence? We weren't here, and then one day we're conscious and exist.
Thanks for the stimulating discussion so far. These are great insights and angles. |
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"In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form; for instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy.
So in simple terms every atom of you will last forever.However entropy rules the universe and everything will go from order to disorder.Which is the second law of thermodynamics.
Atoms also have a beginning and an end. I'm not talking about atoms. I'm talking about the exact atomic configurations, re-configurations, patterns and ultimately consciousness that is "you".
The system to which you refer (universe) had a beginning and has an end. It too did not exist and will not always exist. As a system, it will die. I really appreciate that you limited this concept of created and destroyed energy to the system itself because it cannot be proven that the universe existed as energy eternally and that it's energy even has anywhere else to go. I agree with these concepts of continuation of energy in different forms. But not a continuation of the forms and the consciousness. I don't understand why we have this tendency to change definitions like that in the same discussion. Survival is about survival of the bundle of consciousness we call "me". Not survival of base particles. We're not the sum of our parts, and even if we are, once the parts are disintegrated, so is the sum.
So I'll make it easier. The universe will die. But that isn't a guarantee that it cannot exist again. Really, what control do any of us have over our existence? We weren't here, and then one day we're conscious and exist.
Thanks for the stimulating discussion so far. These are great insights and angles. "
I wasn't aware it was a given the universe will die? It's certainly not my area of expertise but i listen to a podcast where they sometimes talk science and shit. There was a bloke who said something or nothing about the universe wasn't really expanding as much as people used to think and that called into question a lot of previous assumptions. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form; for instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy.
So in simple terms every atom of you will last forever.However entropy rules the universe and everything will go from order to disorder.Which is the second law of thermodynamics.
Atoms also have a beginning and an end. I'm not talking about atoms. I'm talking about the exact atomic configurations, re-configurations, patterns and ultimately consciousness that is "you".
The system to which you refer (universe) had a beginning and has an end. It too did not exist and will not always exist. As a system, it will die. I really appreciate that you limited this concept of created and destroyed energy to the system itself because it cannot be proven that the universe existed as energy eternally and that it's energy even has anywhere else to go. I agree with these concepts of continuation of energy in different forms. But not a continuation of the forms and the consciousness. I don't understand why we have this tendency to change definitions like that in the same discussion. Survival is about survival of the bundle of consciousness we call "me". Not survival of base particles. We're not the sum of our parts, and even if we are, once the parts are disintegrated, so is the sum.
So I'll make it easier. The universe will die. But that isn't a guarantee that it cannot exist again. Really, what control do any of us have over our existence? We weren't here, and then one day we're conscious and exist.
Thanks for the stimulating discussion so far. These are great insights and angles.
I wasn't aware it was a given the universe will die? It's certainly not my area of expertise but i listen to a podcast where they sometimes talk science and shit. There was a bloke who said something or nothing about the universe wasn't really expanding as much as people used to think and that called into question a lot of previous assumptions. "
Very interesting. Never know what we'll discover. As far as I know, and I'm about as qualified as yourself on the subject, most reputable physicists agree that the universe had a beginning and this alone dictate that a state of non-existence precedes the universe and we can extrapolate from that, that the universe has an end like all systems that have a beginning.
Are you interested in quantum physics? This is the next frontier in understanding energy and the subatomic realm. You would be familiar with the double slit experiment which showed that atoms behaved as waves when they were not being observed but they behaved as particles when they were being observed. This should be impossible. The experiment demonstrates that an observer is required for atoms to behave as particles. Strange, but that is our world beyond atoms. It's not as intuitive as we would think.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form; for instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy.
So in simple terms every atom of you will last forever.However entropy rules the universe and everything will go from order to disorder.Which is the second law of thermodynamics.
Atoms also have a beginning and an end. I'm not talking about atoms. I'm talking about the exact atomic configurations, re-configurations, patterns and ultimately consciousness that is "you".
The system to which you refer (universe) had a beginning and has an end. It too did not exist and will not always exist. As a system, it will die. I really appreciate that you limited this concept of created and destroyed energy to the system itself because it cannot be proven that the universe existed as energy eternally and that it's energy even has anywhere else to go. I agree with these concepts of continuation of energy in different forms. But not a continuation of the forms and the consciousness. I don't understand why we have this tendency to change definitions like that in the same discussion. Survival is about survival of the bundle of consciousness we call "me". Not survival of base particles. We're not the sum of our parts, and even if we are, once the parts are disintegrated, so is the sum.
So I'll make it easier. The universe will die. But that isn't a guarantee that it cannot exist again. Really, what control do any of us have over our existence? We weren't here, and then one day we're conscious and exist.
Thanks for the stimulating discussion so far. These are great insights and angles.
I wasn't aware it was a given the universe will die? It's certainly not my area of expertise but i listen to a podcast where they sometimes talk science and shit. There was a bloke who said something or nothing about the universe wasn't really expanding as much as people used to think and that called into question a lot of previous assumptions. "
If you assume that the current universe is expanding because of the Big Bang, at some point the acceleration of the Universe will be overcome by the gravitational pull of everything. It is entirely plausible that eventually the Universe will collapse on itself, causing another big bang.
It doesn't explain where mass came from in the first place.
Also, it is entirely possible for our universe to exist within an photon of a far larger Universe... |
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"
I wasn't aware it was a given the universe will die? It's certainly not my area of expertise but i listen to a podcast where they sometimes talk science and shit. There was a bloke who said something or nothing about the universe wasn't really expanding as much as people used to think and that called into question a lot of previous assumptions.
Very interesting. Never know what we'll discover. As far as I know, and I'm about as qualified as yourself on the subject, most reputable physicists agree that the universe had a beginning and this alone dictate that a state of non-existence precedes the universe and we can extrapolate from that, that the universe has an end like all systems that have a beginning.
Are you interested in quantum physics? This is the next frontier in understanding energy and the subatomic realm. You would be familiar with the double slit experiment which showed that atoms behaved as waves when they were not being observed but they behaved as particles when they were being observed. This should be impossible. The experiment demonstrates that an observer is required for atoms to behave as particles. Strange, but that is our world beyond atoms. It's not as intuitive as we would think.
"
I'm not sure there would even be a debate about a 'multiverse' if it was all so certain but I'm trying to say as little as possible so someone who knows this stuff will take over and not make me look silly.
I know about Heisenbergs uncertainty principle which is about waves and shit. I think that's pretty important since it tells us the universe is probabilistic not deterministic. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form; for instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy.
So in simple terms every atom of you will last forever.However entropy rules the universe and everything will go from order to disorder.Which is the second law of thermodynamics.
Atoms also have a beginning and an end. I'm not talking about atoms. I'm talking about the exact atomic configurations, re-configurations, patterns and ultimately consciousness that is "you".
The system to which you refer (universe) had a beginning and has an end. It too did not exist and will not always exist. As a system, it will die. I really appreciate that you limited this concept of created and destroyed energy to the system itself because it cannot be proven that the universe existed as energy eternally and that it's energy even has anywhere else to go. I agree with these concepts of continuation of energy in different forms. But not a continuation of the forms and the consciousness. I don't understand why we have this tendency to change definitions like that in the same discussion. Survival is about survival of the bundle of consciousness we call "me". Not survival of base particles. We're not the sum of our parts, and even if we are, once the parts are disintegrated, so is the sum.
So I'll make it easier. The universe will die. But that isn't a guarantee that it cannot exist again. Really, what control do any of us have over our existence? We weren't here, and then one day we're conscious and exist.
Thanks for the stimulating discussion so far. These are great insights and angles.
I wasn't aware it was a given the universe will die? It's certainly not my area of expertise but i listen to a podcast where they sometimes talk science and shit. There was a bloke who said something or nothing about the universe wasn't really expanding as much as people used to think and that called into question a lot of previous assumptions.
If you assume that the current universe is expanding because of the Big Bang, at some point the acceleration of the Universe will be overcome by the gravitational pull of everything. It is entirely plausible that eventually the Universe will collapse on itself, causing another big bang.
It doesn't explain where mass came from in the first place.
Also, it is entirely possible for our universe to exist within an photon of a far larger Universe..."
I'm willing to bet that it does. What implications might that have for our understanding of how energy transfers? Because that would only mean our system is even bigger than we thought but, being connected by natural dimensions, it would also be just an extension of the natural world and the same questions reassert themselves. Where does life begin and where does it end? Does energy move from our photon into the larger system? Will we move into that larger system in a different form just like reproductive cells move into this realm and change form? Is it possible that we can exist there in a different form? |
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"I have had a theory that when we die a baby is born and we have another existence, not connected to our former existence.
I was thinking of forming an existential religion with that as its main focal point, so people try their best to save the planet.
Imagine, fucking up a planet that ends up barely habitable, that you end up living in."
.
The main flaw with this is that the human population is growing so the math doesn't make sense. More people are born than die |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I have had a theory that when we die a baby is born and we have another existence, not connected to our former existence.
I was thinking of forming an existential religion with that as its main focal point, so people try their best to save the planet.
Imagine, fucking up a planet that ends up barely habitable, that you end up living in..
The main flaw with this is that the human population is growing so the math doesn't make sense. More people are born than die"
But she said everytime we die, a baby is born, not the reverse ie. everytime a baby is born someone dies. Some of the newborns are here for the first time and the others are returning. I don't believe in it, just saying the math is sound. |
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This is 100% true story. About an hour before my mum passed away in 2006 she was in the hospital bed still talking . Suddenly she looked up and calmly said " I'm a baby now " . After that she went to sleep and they were her last words. That honestly happened !! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system cannot change it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form; for instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy.
So in simple terms every atom of you will last forever.However entropy rules the universe and everything will go from order to disorder.Which is the second law of thermodynamics.
Atoms also have a beginning and an end. I'm not talking about atoms. I'm talking about the exact atomic configurations, re-configurations, patterns and ultimately consciousness that is "you".
The system to which you refer (universe) had a beginning and has an end. It too did not exist and will not always exist. As a system, it will die. I really appreciate that you limited this concept of created and destroyed energy to the system itself because it cannot be proven that the universe existed as energy eternally and that it's energy even has anywhere else to go. I agree with these concepts of continuation of energy in different forms. But not a continuation of the forms and the consciousness. I don't understand why we have this tendency to change definitions like that in the same discussion. Survival is about survival of the bundle of consciousness we call "me". Not survival of base particles. We're not the sum of our parts, and even if we are, once the parts are disintegrated, so is the sum.
So I'll make it easier. The universe will die. But that isn't a guarantee that it cannot exist again. Really, what control do any of us have over our existence? We weren't here, and then one day we're conscious and exist.
Thanks for the stimulating discussion so far. These are great insights and angles. "
I can buy into the idea that your consciousness works on a quantum level.Roger Penrose the theoretical physicist proposed this.Unproven of course.
Regarding an eternal universe.It does appear to be infinite.Which means you already exist elsewhere.Infact infinite earths exist.
As you probably know this universe will die and all the stars will die . Entropy rules and everything will go dark.
We don't know if this is just one of many universes.A multiverse or bubbleverse or are we in a black hole.Does every black hole contain a Universe.I think the universe is for all practical purposes infinite.
I like to think consciousness is a natural development and progression from hydrogen and helium at the beginning to more complex elements forged in stars.Then the simple molecular structure of life onwards upward to self awareness.I don't really attribute any higher meaning to consciousness.Well no more than the periodic table. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I believer we are spirit living in human bodies to learn and improve and we keep coming back, there is plenty of proof if you look for it. Young kids who have told parents facts about previous identities which have been checked out."
There are a lot more people now than there ever were before so where are all the new spirits coming from? |
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"Ok so check this...
We won't exist when we're dead and we can never exist again, so some say... right?
But we also didn't exist before we existed. So why then do we exist now?
It appears that non-existence is exactly the condition we were in before we existed. It doesn't guarantee that we won't exist again.
Grab a refreshment and have a seat and let's figure this out. Thoughts? "
Well done. That's going to mess my head up for a while  |
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Life's too short for such head fucks. All I know is I exist now and my only hope of an afterlife is through the mark I leave on the world through the things I have made/left, the people I have influenced and my children I have moulded. So existence previous to my consciousness is irrelevant to me. My existence beyond my death is reliant on my existence now and how I use it. So the only thing that is worth my head ache is my existence now and how I use it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Going to church as a youngster, I was always told that 'from dust we came and to dust we shall return'.
I never questioned this until I was about 10 years old. I asked the vicar if it was true, that we come from dust and we return to dust. He said 'Yes my child, that is true'.
The look on his face when I replied, 'You'd better look under my bed then, because there's someone either coming or going', was priceless.
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