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Religion & swinging

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago

A deep discussion this morning. Interested if any of you religious in any way. I went to mass yesterday out of duty more than anything...not a religious person myself....but saw a lot of well dresses sexy women. Was wondering if you can be religious and a swinger...as the two codes are somewhat at odds with each other....or am i wrong.

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By *lkDomWhtSubBiCpleCouple  over a year ago

Somewhere / Everywhere /Kinksville

Sure. My god is not against fun

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By *atcoupleCouple  over a year ago

Suffolk - East Anglia


"A deep discussion this morning. Interested if any of you religious in any way. I went to mass yesterday out of duty more than anything...not a religious person myself....but saw a lot of well dresses sexy women. Was wondering if you can be religious and a swinger...as the two codes are somewhat at odds with each other....or am i wrong. "
Interesting topic!

We really don't think the two are incompatible. Yes there are religious teachings that say what we do is wrong but a lot of that is open to interpretation of rules handed down throughout history.

The enjoyment of sex is surely a gift and if everyone is happy and consenting then I don't see a problem.

One could take the view that religion is some sort of control in order to stop the masses from breeding like mad, inbreeding, social disorder etc etc and to have sex confined within marriage in a socially ordered manner.

Also, look at those today within religion where sex is suppressed. It seems to manifest itself then results in awful situations that we read about almost weekly with some vicar, priest or whoever doing something that gets them into court.

If swinging is kept to sensible levels where everyone is happy surely the fulfilment results in happiness that spreads?

Just our thoughts though...........

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

I would say no, totally incompatible, every major religion would condemn promiscuity.

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By *atcoupleCouple  over a year ago

Suffolk - East Anglia


"I would say no, totally incompatible, every major religion would condemn promiscuity."

That's the religious standpoint agreed, but from your view don't you think the two could go together? Surely every major religion condemning promiscuity is just control?

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago

Great replies...thank you...very interesting...

They are incompatible i believe.

Swinging is way more fun that mass ha ha ha

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I don't believe they are compatible either. Religion is about controlling the minds and actions of others - some religions are particularly obsessed with controlling sexuality. Swinging is about freedom.

I'm not discussing the relative merits btw.

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"I would say no, totally incompatible, every major religion would condemn promiscuity.

That's the religious standpoint agreed, but from your view don't you think the two could go together? Surely every major religion condemning promiscuity is just control?"

I don't believe so no, and I do believe they are genuinely incompatible. Swinging is outside the bounds of conventional morality though I guess the Romans may have had a system that would have allowed it?

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago


"I don't believe they are compatible either. Religion is about controlling the minds and actions of others - some religions are particularly obsessed with controlling sexuality. Swinging is about freedom.

I'm not discussing the relative merits btw."

Totally agree...great point

Thank you

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Religion is a wide spectrum... I think you mean Abrahamic religions, mainly...

Although all the "majors" are "in" your bedroom, not in a dissimilar way to many political parties round the world.

I remember being in China when oral sex was legalised, our translator ran in to tell me the next morning and being 24 I just shrugged it off as nonsense...

But to the original question... I'm sure there can be many religions that are more accepting of our sexual being and if not we should create our own paganism.

We have already surpassed the works of all gods, we can do everything they mention in their texts and far, far more, it may not be at the snap of out fingers, but I have more faith in the human ability to innovate than gods.

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By *atcoupleCouple  over a year ago

Suffolk - East Anglia

Agreed, but just to clarify, in your mind don't the two accord with each other? In other words, couldn't you have a full an active sex life with whomever you choose and then still practice religion if that is your wish without a conscience?

Agreed that from a religious view the two wouldn't go hand in hand, but they would take that view wouldn't they...

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By *rontier PsychiatristMan  over a year ago

Coventry


"A deep discussion this morning. Interested if any of you religious in any way. I went to mass yesterday out of duty more than anything...not a religious person myself....but saw a lot of well dresses sexy women. Was wondering if you can be religious and a swinger...as the two codes are somewhat at odds with each other....or am i wrong. Interesting topic!

We really don't think the two are incompatible. Yes there are religious teachings that say what we do is wrong but a lot of that is open to interpretation of rules handed down throughout history.

The enjoyment of sex is surely a gift and if everyone is happy and consenting then I don't see a problem.

One could take the view that religion is some sort of control in order to stop the masses from breeding like mad, inbreeding, social disorder etc etc and to have sex confined within marriage in a socially ordered manner.

Also, look at those today within religion where sex is suppressed. It seems to manifest itself then results in awful situations that we read about almost weekly with some vicar, priest or whoever doing something that gets them into court.

If swinging is kept to sensible levels where everyone is happy surely the fulfilment results in happiness that spreads?

Just our thoughts though..........."

I would say (at least from a Christian view point) you would have to see it as incomparable. Because if you start on the path that the bible has been misinterpreted on the subject you further destroy the validity of the book and further prove its a wishy washy book that can be tailored to suit any narative we want. Then surely you must accept that it is a useless scripture and clearly not the divine work of God. Meaning that Christianity it's self is just a construct of man and not a higher power.

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By *uckandbunnyCouple  over a year ago

In your bed

Religion is no different to any other social group. Some people will follow the club's rules to the letter. Others will be more liberal in their interpretation.

If people want to have a liberal view on their religion I see no reason to restrict them.

Swinging is a very modern phenomenon. Without birth control swingers would be the cause of many unwanted births. Freedom is fine but in the past nature was more restrictive. Without the scientific advances around disease control and contraceptives swinging or sexual promiscuity would be for the few who could afford concubines etc. Rather than something open to everyone.

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By *rnortholtMan  over a year ago

Waveney Valley

There's always the confessional.....

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago


"Agreed, but just to clarify, in your mind don't the two accord with each other? In other words, couldn't you have a full an active sex life with whomever you choose and then still practice religion if that is your wish without a conscience?

Agreed that from a religious view the two wouldn't go hand in hand, but they would take that view wouldn't they..."

The mormon religion it could work.

Blimey some great repostes...i am being educated...thank you all

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I don't believe they are compatible either. Religion is about controlling the minds and actions of others - some religions are particularly obsessed with controlling sexuality. Swinging is about freedom.

I'm not discussing the relative merits btw."

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Depends which religion. There are swingers clubs in Catholic Poland and in Israel. There are none in muslim countries where Sharia police enforce savage morality laws where women who are ra ped are charged with adultery (including the Gulf States) and then imprisoned or stoned to death.

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By *atcoupleCouple  over a year ago

Suffolk - East Anglia

I always find myself asking the question: "why are so many people within the church involved with practices that get them into trouble?"

Isn't it because they have kept their sexual urges hidden because of their religion then it becomes something out of their control?

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Now this topic ....

I am sure there are 100s of born again swingers on here.......ooops! I mean Christians...(right arms swings)

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I'm religious and doing just fine.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Agreed, but just to clarify, in your mind don't the two accord with each other? In other words, couldn't you have a full an active sex life with whomever you choose and then still practice religion if that is your wish without a conscience?

Agreed that from a religious view the two wouldn't go hand in hand, but they would take that view wouldn't they...

The mormon religion it could work.

Blimey some great repostes...i am being educated...thank you all"

To my knowledge, it's only men who are permitted multiple partners in the LDS (and it's not approved in the mainstream church)

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"Religion is a wide spectrum... I think you mean Abrahamic religions, mainly...

Although all the "majors" are "in" your bedroom, not in a dissimilar way to many political parties round the world.

I remember being in China when oral sex was legalised, our translator ran in to tell me the next morning and being 24 I just shrugged it off as nonsense...

But to the original question... I'm sure there can be many religions that are more accepting of our sexual being and if not we should create our own paganism.

We have already surpassed the works of all gods, we can do everything they mention in their texts and far, far more, "

Huh? Are we walking on water now?

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I always find myself asking the question: "why are so many people within the church involved with practices that get them into trouble?"

Isn't it because they have kept their sexual urges hidden because of their religion then it becomes something out of their control?"

Or is it that they subscribe to the religion more out of habit or for appearance's sake?

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Religion is a wide spectrum... I think you mean Abrahamic religions, mainly...

Although all the "majors" are "in" your bedroom, not in a dissimilar way to many political parties round the world.

I remember being in China when oral sex was legalised, our translator ran in to tell me the next morning and being 24 I just shrugged it off as nonsense...

But to the original question... I'm sure there can be many religions that are more accepting of our sexual being and if not we should create our own paganism.

We have already surpassed the works of all gods, we can do everything they mention in their texts and far, far more,

Huh? Are we walking on water now? "

It did seem a tad grandiose to me too

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"Agreed, but just to clarify, in your mind don't the two accord with each other? In other words, couldn't you have a full an active sex life with whomever you choose and then still practice religion if that is your wish without a conscience?

Agreed that from a religious view the two wouldn't go hand in hand, but they would take that view wouldn't they..."

But you would have to 'take the view'on order to fully 'practice the religion' so no, you would be compromising at the very least IMO.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Agreed, but just to clarify, in your mind don't the two accord with each other? In other words, couldn't you have a full an active sex life with whomever you choose and then still practice religion if that is your wish without a conscience?

Agreed that from a religious view the two wouldn't go hand in hand, but they would take that view wouldn't they...

But you would have to 'take the view'on order to fully 'practice the religion' so no, you would be compromising at the very least IMO. "

people twist things and manipulate

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By *uckandbunnyCouple  over a year ago

In your bed


"I always find myself asking the question: "why are so many people within the church involved with practices that get them into trouble?"

Isn't it because they have kept their sexual urges hidden because of their religion then it becomes something out of their control?

Or is it that they subscribe to the religion more out of habit or for appearance's sake?"

I think non religious people tend to jump to stereotypes of what religious people think.

In the end they are people just like everyone else.

Even when people say Christian, there is a homogeneous element as there are so many sect interpretations which will be followed to different levels by its fellowship.

I would say that my main finding is that religion tends to spend far less time discussing sexual morality than those outside religious groups think they do.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

O9A certainly isn't against swinging

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By *reygorCouple  over a year ago

birmingham

the church does not agree with killing either.but we had a chaplin in all the war zones .praying for our safe return after trying to kill the other guys .so am shore a bit of swinging would be allowed.

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"the church does not agree with killing either.but we had a chaplin in all the war zones .praying for our safe return after trying to kill the other guys .so am shore a bit of swinging would be allowed. "

No it condemns murder not killing per se.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

The previous vicar at our local church was very liberal, and accepted that the world had evolved since the bible was translated. Regarding sex she was of the belief that as long as it was between consenting adults then it was all good.

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"Agreed, but just to clarify, in your mind don't the two accord with each other? In other words, couldn't you have a full an active sex life with whomever you choose and then still practice religion if that is your wish without a conscience?

Agreed that from a religious view the two wouldn't go hand in hand, but they would take that view wouldn't they...

But you would have to 'take the view'on order to fully 'practice the religion' so no, you would be compromising at the very least IMO. people twist things and manipulate"

They do - that's compromising I believe.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"the church does not agree with killing either.but we had a chaplin in all the war zones .praying for our safe return after trying to kill the other guys .so am shore a bit of swinging would be allowed. "

Terrible logic.

It doesn't matter how you slice and dice it, the three abrahamic religions have no place for swinging and being a serious follower. The best deal you can get out of it is premarital sex and polygamy (which actually aren't prohibited by biblical standards) and even then yo're gonna have a hard time convincing people stuck in their ways.

Throw those three religions out of the window (along with stiff necked atheists) and you'll see an improvement in the quality of people.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"the church does not agree with killing either.but we had a chaplin in all the war zones .praying for our safe return after trying to kill the other guys .so am shore a bit of swinging would be allowed.

No it condemns murder not killing per se."

Shit, someone who knows the difference between the two!

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago


"The previous vicar at our local church was very liberal, and accepted that the world had evolved since the bible was translated. Regarding sex she was of the belief that as long as it was between consenting adults then it was all good."

Sounds like a cool vicar. I go to mass twice a year and it is the ae.message everytime ....people reading from the bible. Its just not relevant to today

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Depends which religion. There are swingers clubs in Catholic Poland and in Israel. There are none in muslim countries where Sharia police enforce savage morality laws where women who are ra ped are charged with adultery (including the Gulf States) and then imprisoned or stoned to death."

There are swinging clubs in Jakarta.

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By *isaB45Woman  over a year ago

Fabville


"I'm religious and doing just fine."

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"the church does not agree with killing either.but we had a chaplin in all the war zones .praying for our safe return after trying to kill the other guys .so am shore a bit of swinging would be allowed.

Terrible logic.

It doesn't matter how you slice and dice it, the three abrahamic religions have no place for swinging and being a serious follower. The best deal you can get out of it is premarital sex and polygamy (which actually aren't prohibited by biblical standards) and even then yo're gonna have a hard time convincing people stuck in their ways.

Throw those three religions out of the window (along with stiff necked atheists) and you'll see an improvement in the quality of people."

Improvement in the quality of people?

Isn't that a tad pompous? (understatement!)

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By *andemanMan  over a year ago

bedforshire

This is a very interesting topoic to me. I have to take the Christian position as thats the one I know best.

Basically does God love swingers? I think Yes of course God does.

Does God Approve of it? Probobly Not. Why? Becouse people get Hurt. To me the greatest of all Sins is Sin against Love.

Some people use increadble manipulation on the scene to get what they want. Selfishness, thats clearly against most religious codes.

So to be a Christian Swinger (more out there than you think, i know a Vicar who runs BDSM support and discussion groups) i try to do two things.

1) hounesty being up front, this is mutual fun (play) not the quest for a soal mate. By all means fall in Friendship with me but not Love. I am not about that kind of pain. Hurt (real hurt) no one.

2) genuinley care about the people you meet and play with as well as the ones you dont. Consider thier needs thier pleasure thier happyness, dont take advantage of peoples weakness for selfish gratification. Challange wrong doing and nasty behaviour when you see it, defend vulnarable people against preditors for no personal advantage,other than knowing it is rightious to do so.

These two things ballance your books in the eyes of God.

I never swing in Holy Week either (shorter than a 40 day Lent) out of respect and self disapline. Funny mind it is the week I get the most offers most years.

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By *isaB45Woman  over a year ago

Fabville


"There's always the confessional....."

Thank you. Without wishing to belittle any of the other comments on this thread...there is always the Sunday Morning Confessional

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"The previous vicar at our local church was very liberal, and accepted that the world had evolved since the bible was translated. Regarding sex she was of the belief that as long as it was between consenting adults then it was all good.

Sounds like a cool vicar. I go to mass twice a year and it is the ae.message everytime ....people reading from the bible. Its just not relevant to today"

Religious people who say this are deluding themselves. I don't particularly care but don't seriously call yourself a christian/Muslim etc.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"the church does not agree with killing either.but we had a chaplin in all the war zones .praying for our safe return after trying to kill the other guys .so am shore a bit of swinging would be allowed.

Terrible logic.

It doesn't matter how you slice and dice it, the three abrahamic religions have no place for swinging and being a serious follower. The best deal you can get out of it is premarital sex and polygamy (which actually aren't prohibited by biblical standards) and even then yo're gonna have a hard time convincing people stuck in their ways.

Throw those three religions out of the window (along with stiff necked atheists) and you'll see an improvement in the quality of people.

Improvement in the quality of people?

Isn't that a tad pompous? (understatement!)"

And what's your point?

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By *rontier PsychiatristMan  over a year ago

Coventry


"Agreed, but just to clarify, in your mind don't the two accord with each other? In other words, couldn't you have a full an active sex life with whomever you choose and then still practice religion if that is your wish without a conscience?

Agreed that from a religious view the two wouldn't go hand in hand, but they would take that view wouldn't they...

The mormon religion it could work.

Blimey some great repostes...i am being educated...thank you all"

Do you not have to marry them all first? Sounds more trouble than it's worth to me.

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago


"There's always the confessional.....

Thank you. Without wishing to belittle any of the other comments on this thread...there is always the Sunday Morning Confessional

"

Good point....note to others. I am not religious in anyway. Just thought it was a worthy topic for discussion

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By *mf4BxJCouple  over a year ago

edinburgh

Buddhism just states that one shall not engage in sexual behaviour that causes harm to others.

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"the church does not agree with killing either.but we had a chaplin in all the war zones .praying for our safe return after trying to kill the other guys .so am shore a bit of swinging would be allowed.

Terrible logic.

It doesn't matter how you slice and dice it, the three abrahamic religions have no place for swinging and being a serious follower. The best deal you can get out of it is premarital sex and polygamy (which actually aren't prohibited by biblical standards) and even then yo're gonna have a hard time convincing people stuck in their ways.

Throw those three religions out of the window (along with stiff necked atheists) and you'll see an improvement in the quality of people.

Improvement in the quality of people?

Isn't that a tad pompous? (understatement!)

And what's your point?"

I think you spoiled your post with misplaced pomposity - people's 'quality' is another issue entirely.

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By *rontier PsychiatristMan  over a year ago

Coventry


"the church does not agree with killing either.but we had a chaplin in all the war zones .praying for our safe return after trying to kill the other guys .so am shore a bit of swinging would be allowed. "

Well that's ironic because the bible is full of instances where God commands his people to kill others. That's when he is not doing it him self. The God of the bible is the biggest genocidal maniac in history. If they ever managed to drag God in front of the International Criminal Court at the Hauge he would have leg to stand on.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I always find myself asking the question: "why are so many people within the church involved with practices that get them into trouble?"

Isn't it because they have kept their sexual urges hidden because of their religion then it becomes something out of their control?

Or is it that they subscribe to the religion more out of habit or for appearance's sake?

I think non religious people tend to jump to stereotypes of what religious people think.

In the end they are people just like everyone else.

Even when people say Christian, there is a homogeneous element as there are so many sect interpretations which will be followed to different levels by its fellowship.

I would say that my main finding is that religion tends to spend far less time discussing sexual morality than those outside religious groups think they do.

"

I was raised a Catholic in Ireland, I can assure you that it was quite the obsession.

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By *atcoupleCouple  over a year ago

Suffolk - East Anglia

Just as an aside;

I heard a vicar say recently, that there were more unchristian people who go to his church than he's met who don't.

Religion is what you make it, you can be good, kind and nice to people in a Christian manner and still be a swinger.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Being a pagan sex is a natural thing

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Some might argue that the negative aspects of religion have fucked more people than a website full of swingers ever could

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Agreed, but just to clarify, in your mind don't the two accord with each other? In other words, couldn't you have a full an active sex life with whomever you choose and then still practice religion if that is your wish without a conscience?

Agreed that from a religious view the two wouldn't go hand in hand, but they would take that view wouldn't they...

The mormon religion it could work.

Blimey some great repostes...i am being educated...thank you all

Do you not have to marry them all first? Sounds more trouble than it's worth to me."

Even in ancient israel, you were expected to marry them or pay a fee to the father for "humiliating" his daughter if you had premarital sex (it's in exodus and Deuteronomy). Even then, it's black and white in the bible/torah but good luck finding someone to actually agree to it.

Most of it is plagiarised nonsense from preexisting religions with a culturally Jewish and perverted (not in a good way) spin anyway.

O9A or actual satanism (not LaVey or Crowley) is on the other hand worth looking into for a spiritual or "religious" interest.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Us singles get a free ticket to heaven, whilst for couples it is adultery lol.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Being a pagan sex is a natural thing "

Beltane

Easter itself was all about fertility and the holiday dedicated to Ishtar/Astaroth, you can tell this from the symbolism of the rabbit and eggs.

The only good things within the three main religions are the vestiges of paganism.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Us singles get a free ticket to heaven, whilst for couples it is adultery lol."

Well to even look at another man's wife lustfully is adultery

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By *atcoupleCouple  over a year ago

Suffolk - East Anglia


"Us singles get a free ticket to heaven, whilst for couples it is adultery lol."

Well some would ague that it's only adultery if we play without telling our spouse, (cheating).

If we all agree, is that adultery? It's interpretation again.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Us singles get a free ticket to heaven, whilst for couples it is adultery lol."

Wrong, sex outside the bonds of marriage is adultery. We are all sinners.

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"Us singles get a free ticket to heaven, whilst for couples it is adultery lol.

Well some would ague that it's only adultery if we play without telling our spouse, (cheating).

If we all agree, is that adultery?

"

Definitely. There is no avoiding the incompatibility, only denial of it in some cases.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Religion is a wide spectrum... I think you mean Abrahamic religions, mainly...

Although all the "majors" are "in" your bedroom, not in a dissimilar way to many political parties round the world.

I remember being in China when oral sex was legalised, our translator ran in to tell me the next morning and being 24 I just shrugged it off as nonsense...

But to the original question... I'm sure there can be many religions that are more accepting of our sexual being and if not we should create our own paganism.

We have already surpassed the works of all gods, we can do everything they mention in their texts and far, far more,

Huh? Are we walking on water now? "

We can do better... we have power boats, jet skies, water jet packs... the list is endless...

Engineers & physicists have surpassed gods.

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By *icecouple561Couple  over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"If" the benign God we're told about exists I doubt very much that its interested in our sex lives.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I always find myself asking the question: "why are so many people within the church involved with practices that get them into trouble?"

Isn't it because they have kept their sexual urges hidden because of their religion then it becomes something out of their control?

Or is it that they subscribe to the religion more out of habit or for appearance's sake?

I think non religious people tend to jump to stereotypes of what religious people think.

In the end they are people just like everyone else.

Even when people say Christian, there is a homogeneous element as there are so many sect interpretations which will be followed to different levels by its fellowship.

I would say that my main finding is that religion tends to spend far less time discussing sexual morality than those outside religious groups think they do.

I was raised a Catholic in Ireland, I can assure you that it was quite the obsession."

The abrahamic religions have done the most to suppress sexuality. You're absolutely right that its one of the biggest obsessions in most denominations.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"

Engineers & physicists have surpassed gods."

Lol.

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"Religion is a wide spectrum... I think you mean Abrahamic religions, mainly...

Although all the "majors" are "in" your bedroom, not in a dissimilar way to many political parties round the world.

I remember being in China when oral sex was legalised, our translator ran in to tell me the next morning and being 24 I just shrugged it off as nonsense...

But to the original question... I'm sure there can be many religions that are more accepting of our sexual being and if not we should create our own paganism.

We have already surpassed the works of all gods, we can do everything they mention in their texts and far, far more,

Huh? Are we walking on water now?

We can do better... we have power boats, jet skies, water jet packs... the list is endless...

Engineers & physicists have surpassed gods."

Oh dear.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Us singles get a free ticket to heaven, whilst for couples it is adultery lol.

Wrong, sex outside the bonds of marriage is adultery. We are all sinners."

Only if you prescribe to that particular set of rules.

If I choose not to, then those rules no longer apply to me. Therefore I am not a sinner, but you are...

Your perspective and belief system is your own and you can bend it to work for you.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Religion is a wide spectrum... I think you mean Abrahamic religions, mainly...

Although all the "majors" are "in" your bedroom, not in a dissimilar way to many political parties round the world.

I remember being in China when oral sex was legalised, our translator ran in to tell me the next morning and being 24 I just shrugged it off as nonsense...

But to the original question... I'm sure there can be many religions that are more accepting of our sexual being and if not we should create our own paganism.

We have already surpassed the works of all gods, we can do everything they mention in their texts and far, far more,

Huh? Are we walking on water now?

We can do better... we have power boats, jet skies, water jet packs... the list is endless...

Engineers & physicists have surpassed gods.

Oh dear. "

We've harnessed lightning, we can create it, we have the ability to replicate the power of the sun, we can control people thought processes, no religious work has ever even come close to describing the workings of the solar system and when it was explained it was by heratics...

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"Us singles get a free ticket to heaven, whilst for couples it is adultery lol.

Wrong, sex outside the bonds of marriage is adultery. We are all sinners.

Only if you prescribe to that particular set of rules.

If I choose not to, then those rules no longer apply to me. Therefore I am not a sinner, but you are...

Your perspective and belief system is your own and you can bend it to work for you."

That was not the question though.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple  over a year ago

Basingstoke

This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson. "

Thank you. What else can I say but...fabulous!

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

My ex is a born again Christian we are not in a relationship now ...

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"Religion is a wide spectrum... I think you mean Abrahamic religions, mainly...

Although all the "majors" are "in" your bedroom, not in a dissimilar way to many political parties round the world.

I remember being in China when oral sex was legalised, our translator ran in to tell me the next morning and being 24 I just shrugged it off as nonsense...

But to the original question... I'm sure there can be many religions that are more accepting of our sexual being and if not we should create our own paganism.

We have already surpassed the works of all gods, we can do everything they mention in their texts and far, far more,

Huh? Are we walking on water now?

We can do better... we have power boats, jet skies, water jet packs... the list is endless...

Engineers & physicists have surpassed gods.

Oh dear.

We've harnessed lightning, we can create it, we have the ability to replicate the power of the sun, we can control people thought processes, no religious work has ever even come close to describing the workings of the solar system and when it was explained it was by heratics..."

I think you have some research to do! Of course if you don't believe in any god or any of their abilities you could say that, but not if they are deemed true, you have simply not understood.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

The new testament is a continuation of the old, most of it is not annulled the only stuff not applicable are the levitical priesthood and dietary laws.

I'm surprised I haven't heard the old shellfish/homosexuality argument yet.

I've read numerous commentaries, Strong's concordance, a variety of bible versions and historical sources. This is what actually led me to become a pagan.

Most so called Christians and muslims haven't the slightest clue about their own teachings never mind putting them in context.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Us singles get a free ticket to heaven, whilst for couples it is adultery lol.

Wrong, sex outside the bonds of marriage is adultery. We are all sinners.

Only if you prescribe to that particular set of rules.

If I choose not to, then those rules no longer apply to me. Therefore I am not a sinner, but you are...

Your perspective and belief system is your own and you can bend it to work for you.

That was not the question though. "

Well then the answer is yes, they are both perfectly compatible....

From my perspective.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"My ex is a born again Christian we are not in a relationship now ..."

The worst kind lol

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson. "

But going to Communion in a state of compromise is not the same as wholeheartedly following a faith and its teaching.

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

But going to Communion in a state of compromise is not the same as wholeheartedly following a faith and its teaching."

Agreed..definitely prefer the more uninhibitedness and openess of swinging

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"The new testament is a continuation of the old, most of it is not annulled the only stuff not applicable are the levitical priesthood and dietary laws.

"

No, Christians are under grace not law.

"All things are permissable, not all things are beneficial"

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

But going to Communion in a state of compromise is not the same as wholeheartedly following a faith and its teaching.

Agreed..definitely prefer the more uninhibitedness and openess of swinging "

That's your free choice of course!

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Not so sure most religions should be pointing a judgemental finger at those who enjoy pleasures of the flesh really.

They mostly all seem to have their own crosses to bear, if you excuse the pun.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Depends which religion. There are swingers clubs in Catholic Poland and in Israel. There are none in muslim countries where Sharia police enforce savage morality laws where women who are ra ped are charged with adultery (including the Gulf States) and then imprisoned or stoned to death.

There are swinging clubs in Jakarta."

I'm glad you mentioned Jakarta. Yes, Indonesia is very advanced. FGM has been practiced there on babies for generations: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-4351970/Indonesian-girl-howls-circumcision-debate-heats-up.html

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple  over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

But going to Communion in a state of compromise is not the same as wholeheartedly following a faith and its teaching."

Following every rule to the letter ain't the definition of being a christian either.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Not so sure most religions should be pointing a judgemental finger at those who enjoy pleasures of the flesh really.

They mostly all seem to have their own crosses to bear, if you excuse the pun."

And to be fair... I have seen many religions around the world that worship the penis...

It's such a common sight to see gods with giant erect cocks, images of orgies and worship, games and societies that revolve around sex.

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

But going to Communion in a state of compromise is not the same as wholeheartedly following a faith and its teaching.

Following every rule to the letter ain't the definition of being a christian either. "

No but you cannot ignore something so profound and pretend to be 'following' IMO.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Us singles get a free ticket to heaven, whilst for couples it is adultery lol.

Wrong, sex outside the bonds of marriage is adultery. We are all sinners.

Only if you prescribe to that particular set of rules.

If I choose not to, then those rules no longer apply to me. Therefore I am not a sinner, but you are...

Your perspective and belief system is your own and you can bend it to work for you."

I have no religious beliefs, I was simply pointing out the erroneous definition that another user was applying to married couples whose belief system may be different to his. To my knowledge, the concept of "adultery" is pretty universally defined as sex outside the bonds of marriage.

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By *eavenscentitCouple  over a year ago

barnstaple

I am spiritual and enjoy sex. There are worse things to do.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple  over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

But going to Communion in a state of compromise is not the same as wholeheartedly following a faith and its teaching.

Following every rule to the letter ain't the definition of being a christian either.

No but you cannot ignore something so profound and pretend to be 'following' IMO."

Profound = mortal sin.

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By *rNaughtyNickMan  over a year ago

Birmingham

Did you not see the disclaimer when you signed up to fab ???

Were all sinners and going to hell

X

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

But going to Communion in a state of compromise is not the same as wholeheartedly following a faith and its teaching.

Following every rule to the letter ain't the definition of being a christian either.

No but you cannot ignore something so profound and pretend to be 'following' IMO.

Profound = mortal sin. "

That's a solely Catholic notion I believe, and not what I mean.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple  over a year ago

Basingstoke


"Did you not see the disclaimer when you signed up to fab ???

Were all sinners and going to hell

X"

Every human sins. Not every human reprents. That's the fatal logical flaw in pointing at someone else's sin and saying "they can't be religious if they do that"

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple  over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

But going to Communion in a state of compromise is not the same as wholeheartedly following a faith and its teaching.

Following every rule to the letter ain't the definition of being a christian either.

No but you cannot ignore something so profound and pretend to be 'following' IMO.

Profound = mortal sin.

That's a solely Catholic notion I believe, and not what I mean. "

Ok so you understand how it's not profund for catholics then?

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Us singles get a free ticket to heaven, whilst for couples it is adultery lol.

Wrong, sex outside the bonds of marriage is adultery. We are all sinners.

Only if you prescribe to that particular set of rules.

If I choose not to, then those rules no longer apply to me. Therefore I am not a sinner, but you are...

Your perspective and belief system is your own and you can bend it to work for you.

I have no religious beliefs, I was simply pointing out the erroneous definition that another user was applying to married couples whose belief system may be different to his. To my knowledge, the concept of "adultery" is pretty universally defined as sex outside the bonds of marriage."

And that us your view it.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Jesus hung around with sinners and god put the g spot inside a mans arse.

My swinging doesnt interfere with my family life and I don't interfere with other people's family life.

It many ways for the married people on fab because their selfish partners don't see to their sexual needs anymore, swinging keeps marriages together as the sexual needs which you could argue god gave us is seen to by others that know it is just sex.

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

But going to Communion in a state of compromise is not the same as wholeheartedly following a faith and its teaching.

Following every rule to the letter ain't the definition of being a christian either.

No but you cannot ignore something so profound and pretend to be 'following' IMO.

Profound = mortal sin.

That's a solely Catholic notion I believe, and not what I mean.

Ok so you understand how it's not profund for catholics then?"

No but a lot of Catholicism is not scriptural anyway, so not included in my argument.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"The previous vicar at our local church was very liberal, and accepted that the world had evolved since the bible was translated. Regarding sex she was of the belief that as long as it was between consenting adults then it was all good.

Sounds like a cool vicar. I go to mass twice a year and it is the ae.message everytime ....people reading from the bible. Its just not relevant to today"

I find religion (and the bible) relevant to today. Everyone is different though.

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago


"Jesus hung around with sinners and god put the g spot inside a mans arse.

My swinging doesnt interfere with my family life and I don't interfere with other people's family life.

It many ways for the married people on fab because their selfish partners don't see to their sexual needs anymore, swinging keeps marriages together as the sexual needs which you could argue god gave us is seen to by others that know it is just sex.

"

WOW - bang on

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple  over a year ago

London


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson. "

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple  over a year ago

London

Also a quick Google church makes it pretty clear that certainly according to the Catholic Church fornication is a mortal sin.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Us singles get a free ticket to heaven, whilst for couples it is adultery lol.

Wrong, sex outside the bonds of marriage is adultery. We are all sinners.

Only if you prescribe to that particular set of rules.

If I choose not to, then those rules no longer apply to me. Therefore I am not a sinner, but you are...

Your perspective and belief system is your own and you can bend it to work for you.

I have no religious beliefs, I was simply pointing out the erroneous definition that another user was applying to married couples whose belief system may be different to his. To my knowledge, the concept of "adultery" is pretty universally defined as sex outside the bonds of marriage."

I agree, but... you said the "concept" of adultery, which is all it is and it only exists because of the concept of monogamy.

Both are social constructs, they are not absolutes, just man made constructs designed to create a society.

But many cultures didn't have these concepts and got along fine and one day we will discard these concepts and simply move on.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple  over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful. "

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple  over a year ago

London


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian. "

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple  over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin? "

Yes, the priesthood.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

No because it would just be a 6th form source

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian. "

To my knowledge, adultery is in fact regarded as a mortal sin in the Catholic church.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian. "

One of my friends is a devout Christian and has a (recent) degree in Christian theology (graduated with a First too).

He has no problem with shagging around.

Pretty sure that this kind of thing is only a problem to people who want to make it a problem.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

It is not just if someone is married, also about their sexual orientation plays part in religion.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

To my knowledge, adultery is in fact regarded as a mortal sin in the Catholic church."

It is, liberals just like to try and worm out of the fact, always wanting to have everything their own way.

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin? "

And don't forget these are not scriptural definitions anyway. It's actually much simpler than that - Old and New Testament, Gospels and letters all state very clearly 'Don't do it guys'.

It's not a question of whether or not you can 'get away with it', you are simply not following the faith wholeheartedly if you deliberately do what it asks you not to. Simples.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

And don't forget these are not scriptural definitions anyway. It's actually much simpler than that - Old and New Testament, Gospels and letters all state very clearly 'Don't do it guys'.

It's not a question of whether or not you can 'get away with it', you are simply not following the faith wholeheartedly if you deliberately do what it asks you not to. Simples."

In fact, one of the three tenets of a mortal sin is to deliberately do something knowing it to be "gravely sinful" in the eyes of the church.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple  over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

And don't forget these are not scriptural definitions anyway. It's actually much simpler than that - Old and New Testament, Gospels and letters all state very clearly 'Don't do it guys'.

It's not a question of whether or not you can 'get away with it', you are simply not following the faith wholeheartedly if you deliberately do what it asks you not to. Simples."

Perfect example of amateur theology 101

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

And don't forget these are not scriptural definitions anyway. It's actually much simpler than that - Old and New Testament, Gospels and letters all state very clearly 'Don't do it guys'.

It's not a question of whether or not you can 'get away with it', you are simply not following the faith wholeheartedly if you deliberately do what it asks you not to. Simples."

It's just mental gymnastics people play so they don't have to take responsibility or feel guilt.

I have slightly more respect for fundamentalists than I do someone dishonest.

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By *inkywife1981Couple  over a year ago

A town near you

We are practising catholics !

But we use contraception which is frowned on lol

It is always good at mass checking our the talent lol

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple  over a year ago

London


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

Yes, the priesthood."

The catechism of the catholic Church defines a mortal sin as involving "a grave matter" (see clause 1858). In that clause adultery is specifically said to be a grave matter. Clause 2390 of the catechism says that extramarital sex is a grave sin.

Thus it is absolutely clear that extra martial sex is to the Catholic church a mortal sin and renders one liable to damnation. Of course sins can be forgiven but as I am sure you know forgiveness requires contrition and promise of amendment. Hence a swinger who intends to continue swinging is neither contrite nor promises amendment. Hence his sin cannot be forgiven.

The reality is of course that many people who call themselves catholics persist in a state of mortal sin (they might live with their unmarried partner for example) but that's because the official doctrines of their religion mean little or nothing to them. They are catholics in the sense that I am a Sheffield united supporter - its a badge of belonging and tribal adherence which doesn't actually entail any serious intellectual commitment.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"

It's just mental gymnastics people play so they don't have to take responsibility or feel guilt.

I have slightly more respect for fundamentalists than I do someone dishonest."

To be honest, I doubt that those people care how much respect you do or don't have for them.

I don't really have much respect for those who treat my lifestyle and my faith as a point-scoring debate on a swingers site to be honest. But I doubt you care that I don't have respect for you.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

And don't forget these are not scriptural definitions anyway. It's actually much simpler than that - Old and New Testament, Gospels and letters all state very clearly 'Don't do it guys'.

It's not a question of whether or not you can 'get away with it', you are simply not following the faith wholeheartedly if you deliberately do what it asks you not to. Simples.

Perfect example of amateur theology 101"

Great argument! who made you the authority?

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

And don't forget these are not scriptural definitions anyway. It's actually much simpler than that - Old and New Testament, Gospels and letters all state very clearly 'Don't do it guys'.

It's not a question of whether or not you can 'get away with it', you are simply not following the faith wholeheartedly if you deliberately do what it asks you not to. Simples.

Perfect example of amateur theology 101"

Lol, no, biblical.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"

It's just mental gymnastics people play so they don't have to take responsibility or feel guilt.

I have slightly more respect for fundamentalists than I do someone dishonest.

To be honest, I doubt that those people care how much respect you do or don't have for them.

I don't really have much respect for those who treat my lifestyle and my faith as a point-scoring debate on a swingers site to be honest. But I doubt you care that I don't have respect for you."

You'd be 100% correct, I don't care

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

And don't forget these are not scriptural definitions anyway. It's actually much simpler than that - Old and New Testament, Gospels and letters all state very clearly 'Don't do it guys'.

It's not a question of whether or not you can 'get away with it', you are simply not following the faith wholeheartedly if you deliberately do what it asks you not to. Simples.

It's just mental gymnastics people play so they don't have to take responsibility or feel guilt.

I have slightly more respect for fundamentalists than I do someone dishonest."

I agree, I have much more respect.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple  over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

Yes, the priesthood.

The catechism of the catholic Church defines a mortal sin as involving "a grave matter" (see clause 1858). In that clause adultery is specifically said to be a grave matter. Clause 2390 of the catechism says that extramarital sex is a grave sin.

Thus it is absolutely clear that extra martial sex is to the Catholic church a mortal sin and renders one liable to damnation. Of course sins can be forgiven but as I am sure you know forgiveness requires contrition and promise of amendment. Hence a swinger who intends to continue swinging is neither contrite nor promises amendment. Hence his sin cannot be forgiven.

The reality is of course that many people who call themselves catholics persist in a state of mortal sin (they might live with their unmarried partner for example) but that's because the official doctrines of their religion mean little or nothing to them. They are catholics in the sense that I am a Sheffield united supporter - its a badge of belonging and tribal adherence which doesn't actually entail any serious intellectual commitment. "

Again, i noticed that none of these counter points start with, "i spoke to professional theologian priest x, rabbi y or imam z and they told me this". A lot of educated and intelligent people like yourself think they can just go direct to the source and read it as well as anyone else. Sorry but if catholics believed that was true then they'd be protestants! As i say, if it was that important to you then you'd spend half an hour of your life discussing it with a professional theologian.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple  over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

And don't forget these are not scriptural definitions anyway. It's actually much simpler than that - Old and New Testament, Gospels and letters all state very clearly 'Don't do it guys'.

It's not a question of whether or not you can 'get away with it', you are simply not following the faith wholeheartedly if you deliberately do what it asks you not to. Simples.

It's just mental gymnastics people play so they don't have to take responsibility or feel guilt.

I have slightly more respect for fundamentalists than I do someone dishonest.

I agree, I have much more respect."

I don't respect people who blindly follow rules. They do make good nazi prison guards though.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

Yes, the priesthood.

The catechism of the catholic Church defines a mortal sin as involving "a grave matter" (see clause 1858). In that clause adultery is specifically said to be a grave matter. Clause 2390 of the catechism says that extramarital sex is a grave sin.

Thus it is absolutely clear that extra martial sex is to the Catholic church a mortal sin and renders one liable to damnation. Of course sins can be forgiven but as I am sure you know forgiveness requires contrition and promise of amendment. Hence a swinger who intends to continue swinging is neither contrite nor promises amendment. Hence his sin cannot be forgiven.

The reality is of course that many people who call themselves catholics persist in a state of mortal sin (they might live with their unmarried partner for example) but that's because the official doctrines of their religion mean little or nothing to them. They are catholics in the sense that I am a Sheffield united supporter - its a badge of belonging and tribal adherence which doesn't actually entail any serious intellectual commitment.

Again, i noticed that none of these counter points start with, "i spoke to professional theologian priest x, rabbi y or imam z and they told me this". A lot of educated and intelligent people like yourself think they can just go direct to the source and read it as well as anyone else. Sorry but if catholics believed that was true then they'd be protestants! As i say, if it was that important to you then you'd spend half an hour of your life discussing it with a professional theologian. "

Because the "professionals" are always right and have no personal investment whatsoever how fucking naive are some people? I don't really give a fuck what "modern" imams or priests think on the matter as they make it up as they go along to conform with trends of the world. So excuse me if I take it with a very fine pinch of salt.

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"

Again, i noticed that none of these counter points start with, "i spoke to professional theologian priest x, rabbi y or imam z and they told me this". A lot of educated and intelligent people like yourself think they can just go direct to the source and read it as well as anyone else. Sorry but if catholics believed that was true then they'd be protestants! As i say, if it was that important to you then you'd spend half an hour of your life discussing it with a professional theologian. "

Wow. OK, for the sake of argument, I have spoken to dozens of professionals who all support the scriptural view.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple  over a year ago

London


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

Yes, the priesthood.

The catechism of the catholic Church defines a mortal sin as involving "a grave matter" (see clause 1858). In that clause adultery is specifically said to be a grave matter. Clause 2390 of the catechism says that extramarital sex is a grave sin.

Thus it is absolutely clear that extra martial sex is to the Catholic church a mortal sin and renders one liable to damnation. Of course sins can be forgiven but as I am sure you know forgiveness requires contrition and promise of amendment. Hence a swinger who intends to continue swinging is neither contrite nor promises amendment. Hence his sin cannot be forgiven.

The reality is of course that many people who call themselves catholics persist in a state of mortal sin (they might live with their unmarried partner for example) but that's because the official doctrines of their religion mean little or nothing to them. They are catholics in the sense that I am a Sheffield united supporter - its a badge of belonging and tribal adherence which doesn't actually entail any serious intellectual commitment.

Again, i noticed that none of these counter points start with, "i spoke to professional theologian priest x, rabbi y or imam z and they told me this". A lot of educated and intelligent people like yourself think they can just go direct to the source and read it as well as anyone else. Sorry but if catholics believed that was true then they'd be protestants! As i say, if it was that important to you then you'd spend half an hour of your life discussing it with a professional theologian. "

Would you mind actually addressing my argument and telling me where it is wrong. I have gone to the catechism of the catholic Church which is absolutely clear that fornication is a mortal sin. I can't think of any more authoritative source than that.

If you are so certain fornication is not a mortal sin please point me to a link where it says that.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

i don't believe the 2 can be compatible.I was brought up catholic but have no religious beliefs at all,but I do think it's hypocritical to claim to be of a certain religion,yet pick and choose the bits you like or don't like about it.But that is every individuals choice i guess,but for me,it's a bit weak and halfhearted..

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

And don't forget these are not scriptural definitions anyway. It's actually much simpler than that - Old and New Testament, Gospels and letters all state very clearly 'Don't do it guys'.

It's not a question of whether or not you can 'get away with it', you are simply not following the faith wholeheartedly if you deliberately do what it asks you not to. Simples.

It's just mental gymnastics people play so they don't have to take responsibility or feel guilt.

I have slightly more respect for fundamentalists than I do someone dishonest.

I agree, I have much more respect.

I don't respect people who blindly follow rules. They do make good nazi prison guards though. "

Ah the pinnacle of internet arguments; Hitler and the Nazis. Time to log off, people, argument's been won.

I respect people who fight for what they believe in. It's amateur historians who think national socialists blindly followed orders and the public were brainwashed.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I sort of asked this yesterday after I was accused of being silly when trying to make light of church going but never got an answer. I'm not religious in Amy way but from what I understand of them then swinging is completely in compatible with faith. To me I find it a bit of people trying to have "ones cake and eating it". Religion isn't and shouldn't be a mirror to society unless its not valid in the first place.

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

Hahaha, I am sorry, I am going to have to quote a scripture on a swingers site:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say whatever their itching ears want to hear."

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

Yes, the priesthood.

The catechism of the catholic Church defines a mortal sin as involving "a grave matter" (see clause 1858). In that clause adultery is specifically said to be a grave matter. Clause 2390 of the catechism says that extramarital sex is a grave sin.

Thus it is absolutely clear that extra martial sex is to the Catholic church a mortal sin and renders one liable to damnation. Of course sins can be forgiven but as I am sure you know forgiveness requires contrition and promise of amendment. Hence a swinger who intends to continue swinging is neither contrite nor promises amendment. Hence his sin cannot be forgiven.

The reality is of course that many people who call themselves catholics persist in a state of mortal sin (they might live with their unmarried partner for example) but that's because the official doctrines of their religion mean little or nothing to them. They are catholics in the sense that I am a Sheffield united supporter - its a badge of belonging and tribal adherence which doesn't actually entail any serious intellectual commitment.

Again, i noticed that none of these counter points start with, "i spoke to professional theologian priest x, rabbi y or imam z and they told me this". A lot of educated and intelligent people like yourself think they can just go direct to the source and read it as well as anyone else. Sorry but if catholics believed that was true then they'd be protestants! As i say, if it was that important to you then you'd spend half an hour of your life discussing it with a professional theologian.

Would you mind actually addressing my argument and telling me where it is wrong. I have gone to the catechism of the catholic Church which is absolutely clear that fornication is a mortal sin. I can't think of any more authoritative source than that.

If you are so certain fornication is not a mortal sin please point me to a link where it says that. "

Cue blogspot link.

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple  over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

Yes, the priesthood.

The catechism of the catholic Church defines a mortal sin as involving "a grave matter" (see clause 1858). In that clause adultery is specifically said to be a grave matter. Clause 2390 of the catechism says that extramarital sex is a grave sin.

Thus it is absolutely clear that extra martial sex is to the Catholic church a mortal sin and renders one liable to damnation. Of course sins can be forgiven but as I am sure you know forgiveness requires contrition and promise of amendment. Hence a swinger who intends to continue swinging is neither contrite nor promises amendment. Hence his sin cannot be forgiven.

The reality is of course that many people who call themselves catholics persist in a state of mortal sin (they might live with their unmarried partner for example) but that's because the official doctrines of their religion mean little or nothing to them. They are catholics in the sense that I am a Sheffield united supporter - its a badge of belonging and tribal adherence which doesn't actually entail any serious intellectual commitment.

Again, i noticed that none of these counter points start with, "i spoke to professional theologian priest x, rabbi y or imam z and they told me this". A lot of educated and intelligent people like yourself think they can just go direct to the source and read it as well as anyone else. Sorry but if catholics believed that was true then they'd be protestants! As i say, if it was that important to you then you'd spend half an hour of your life discussing it with a professional theologian.

Would you mind actually addressing my argument and telling me where it is wrong. I have gone to the catechism of the catholic Church which is absolutely clear that fornication is a mortal sin. I can't think of any more authoritative source than that.

If you are so certain fornication is not a mortal sin please point me to a link where it says that. "

No i can't because im not a professional theologian, i don't pretend to have all the answers or pretend to be able to unterpret ancient texts properly. In the same way i can't explain to you why kombucha doesn't cure cancer, because im not a doctor either. I can just tell you that if you take up your concerns with a catholic priest then you'd understand how someone can simultaneously be a swinger and a catholic.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I guess anyone can be a catholic when church attendance is down and the money dropping.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple  over a year ago

London


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

Yes, the priesthood.

The catechism of the catholic Church defines a mortal sin as involving "a grave matter" (see clause 1858). In that clause adultery is specifically said to be a grave matter. Clause 2390 of the catechism says that extramarital sex is a grave sin.

Thus it is absolutely clear that extra martial sex is to the Catholic church a mortal sin and renders one liable to damnation. Of course sins can be forgiven but as I am sure you know forgiveness requires contrition and promise of amendment. Hence a swinger who intends to continue swinging is neither contrite nor promises amendment. Hence his sin cannot be forgiven.

The reality is of course that many people who call themselves catholics persist in a state of mortal sin (they might live with their unmarried partner for example) but that's because the official doctrines of their religion mean little or nothing to them. They are catholics in the sense that I am a Sheffield united supporter - its a badge of belonging and tribal adherence which doesn't actually entail any serious intellectual commitment.

Again, i noticed that none of these counter points start with, "i spoke to professional theologian priest x, rabbi y or imam z and they told me this". A lot of educated and intelligent people like yourself think they can just go direct to the source and read it as well as anyone else. Sorry but if catholics believed that was true then they'd be protestants! As i say, if it was that important to you then you'd spend half an hour of your life discussing it with a professional theologian.

Would you mind actually addressing my argument and telling me where it is wrong. I have gone to the catechism of the catholic Church which is absolutely clear that fornication is a mortal sin. I can't think of any more authoritative source than that.

If you are so certain fornication is not a mortal sin please point me to a link where it says that.

No i can't because im not a professional theologian, i don't pretend to have all the answers or pretend to be able to unterpret ancient texts properly. In the same way i can't explain to you why kombucha doesn't cure cancer, because im not a doctor either. I can just tell you that if you take up your concerns with a catholic priest then you'd understand how someone can simultaneously be a swinger and a catholic. "

We are not talking about ancient texts we are talking about the current catechism of the catholic Church which sets out the current doctrine of the faith as decided by the pope, the cardinals and the bishops. . As I say that catechism is clear that fornication is a mortal sin and any priest who tells you otherwise is contradicting the official line.

It seems we have reached an impasse here. You say there are some unnamed priests who say fornication is not a mortal sin but you are either unwilling or in capable of putting forward their arguments or even pointing to some written authority so I can consider their arguments for myself. Apparently I have to track down some theologian to discuss it. Can you give me a name?

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By *y Favorite PornstarCouple  over a year ago

Basingstoke


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

Yes, the priesthood.

The catechism of the catholic Church defines a mortal sin as involving "a grave matter" (see clause 1858). In that clause adultery is specifically said to be a grave matter. Clause 2390 of the catechism says that extramarital sex is a grave sin.

Thus it is absolutely clear that extra martial sex is to the Catholic church a mortal sin and renders one liable to damnation. Of course sins can be forgiven but as I am sure you know forgiveness requires contrition and promise of amendment. Hence a swinger who intends to continue swinging is neither contrite nor promises amendment. Hence his sin cannot be forgiven.

The reality is of course that many people who call themselves catholics persist in a state of mortal sin (they might live with their unmarried partner for example) but that's because the official doctrines of their religion mean little or nothing to them. They are catholics in the sense that I am a Sheffield united supporter - its a badge of belonging and tribal adherence which doesn't actually entail any serious intellectual commitment.

Again, i noticed that none of these counter points start with, "i spoke to professional theologian priest x, rabbi y or imam z and they told me this". A lot of educated and intelligent people like yourself think they can just go direct to the source and read it as well as anyone else. Sorry but if catholics believed that was true then they'd be protestants! As i say, if it was that important to you then you'd spend half an hour of your life discussing it with a professional theologian.

Would you mind actually addressing my argument and telling me where it is wrong. I have gone to the catechism of the catholic Church which is absolutely clear that fornication is a mortal sin. I can't think of any more authoritative source than that.

If you are so certain fornication is not a mortal sin please point me to a link where it says that.

No i can't because im not a professional theologian, i don't pretend to have all the answers or pretend to be able to unterpret ancient texts properly. In the same way i can't explain to you why kombucha doesn't cure cancer, because im not a doctor either. I can just tell you that if you take up your concerns with a catholic priest then you'd understand how someone can simultaneously be a swinger and a catholic.

We are not talking about ancient texts we are talking about the current catechism of the catholic Church which sets out the current doctrine of the faith as decided by the pope, the cardinals and the bishops. . As I say that catechism is clear that fornication is a mortal sin and any priest who tells you otherwise is contradicting the official line.

It seems we have reached an impasse here. You say there are some unnamed priests who say fornication is not a mortal sin but you are either unwilling or in capable of putting forward their arguments or even pointing to some written authority so I can consider their arguments for myself. Apparently I have to track down some theologian to discuss it. Can you give me a name? "

No just go down to your local catholic church and ask if being a swinger prevents you from being a christian. If you go to a church of england church you might even have a homosexual priest answer it for you...

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

My son used to be married to an ex Catholic priest. He told me that when he worked at Westminster Cathedral, the Archbishop encouraged his clergy to go cruising and cottaging but just not to form relationships.

It did seem to me that there was one law for the clergy and another for the laity

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago

Blimey ...talk about can of worms ha ha ah

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

The bible is full of campfire story's written by man for man many many years after the events supposedly happened.

It's like the game of chinese whispers you tell a person a story and ask them to pass it on decades later the stories will have changed somewhat when it comes to them been written down.

Of course there has to be rules about sex if everyone was just fucking everyone there would be hell on.

There would be no trust and jealousy would reign supreme. No one would take responsibility for their children or know who there father was and who inherits what.

like in Islam, a man can have more than one wife, this was written in a time before benefits it gave a woman a roof over her head and food on the table. Particularly in times of war when there were few men to the ratio of women.

As he has to treat them all the same he can only take on what he can afford.

Woman however can only have one husband, this is because if she has many partners how do you know who the father is of her children as he has a responsibility to those children and the man if he doubts he is the father he may not support them. No Jeremy Kyle in those days to do the test.

I am a very spiritual person and enjoy at times going to church, but I don't believe god made us in his image yet again I believe that was man full of his own self importance writing that.

I am a bit of a religious slut and take what I feel is good from all the faiths.

just practice been a good person, if you feel in your heart it is wrong then don't do it.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple  over a year ago

London


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

Yes, the priesthood.

The catechism of the catholic Church defines a mortal sin as involving "a grave matter" (see clause 1858). In that clause adultery is specifically said to be a grave matter. Clause 2390 of the catechism says that extramarital sex is a grave sin.

Thus it is absolutely clear that extra martial sex is to the Catholic church a mortal sin and renders one liable to damnation. Of course sins can be forgiven but as I am sure you know forgiveness requires contrition and promise of amendment. Hence a swinger who intends to continue swinging is neither contrite nor promises amendment. Hence his sin cannot be forgiven.

The reality is of course that many people who call themselves catholics persist in a state of mortal sin (they might live with their unmarried partner for example) but that's because the official doctrines of their religion mean little or nothing to them. They are catholics in the sense that I am a Sheffield united supporter - its a badge of belonging and tribal adherence which doesn't actually entail any serious intellectual commitment.

Again, i noticed that none of these counter points start with, "i spoke to professional theologian priest x, rabbi y or imam z and they told me this". A lot of educated and intelligent people like yourself think they can just go direct to the source and read it as well as anyone else. Sorry but if catholics believed that was true then they'd be protestants! As i say, if it was that important to you then you'd spend half an hour of your life discussing it with a professional theologian.

Would you mind actually addressing my argument and telling me where it is wrong. I have gone to the catechism of the catholic Church which is absolutely clear that fornication is a mortal sin. I can't think of any more authoritative source than that.

If you are so certain fornication is not a mortal sin please point me to a link where it says that.

No i can't because im not a professional theologian, i don't pretend to have all the answers or pretend to be able to unterpret ancient texts properly. In the same way i can't explain to you why kombucha doesn't cure cancer, because im not a doctor either. I can just tell you that if you take up your concerns with a catholic priest then you'd understand how someone can simultaneously be a swinger and a catholic.

We are not talking about ancient texts we are talking about the current catechism of the catholic Church which sets out the current doctrine of the faith as decided by the pope, the cardinals and the bishops. . As I say that catechism is clear that fornication is a mortal sin and any priest who tells you otherwise is contradicting the official line.

It seems we have reached an impasse here. You say there are some unnamed priests who say fornication is not a mortal sin but you are either unwilling or in capable of putting forward their arguments or even pointing to some written authority so I can consider their arguments for myself. Apparently I have to track down some theologian to discuss it. Can you give me a name?

No just go down to your local catholic church and ask if being a swinger prevents you from being a christian. If you go to a church of england church you might even have a homosexual priest answer it for you... "

For the sake of argument let's agree that some Catholic authorities say fornication is a mortal sin (see the catechism) and some say it isn't. (see your priest). What makes you think the latter is correct rather than the former?

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

There is a break away Mormon division where it wouldn't be a problem but for the recognised church it wouldn't be acceptable at all. They place great importance on the family unit and doing the right thing. Swinging certainly wouldn't be the right thing!!

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By *D835Man  over a year ago

London


"i don't believe the 2 can be compatible.I was brought up catholic but have no religious beliefs at all,but I do think it's hypocritical to claim to be of a certain religion,yet pick and choose the bits you like or don't like about it.But that is every individuals choice i guess,but for me,it's a bit weak and halfhearted.."

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"A deep discussion this morning. Interested if any of you religious in any way. I went to mass yesterday out of duty more than anything...not a religious person myself....but saw a lot of well dresses sexy women. Was wondering if you can be religious and a swinger...as the two codes are somewhat at odds with each other....or am i wrong. "

Yes my husband and I are both church goers, but we also swing. My husband has slightly different views to myself, so I won't speak on his behalf. For me I have always battled with my spiritual beliefs versus by desire/need for multiple sexual partners. Don't really know what to do, or what the answer is. But we are swinging and attending church, so rightly or wrongly we have made room for both in our life.

Mrs

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"A deep discussion this morning. Interested if any of you religious in any way. I went to mass yesterday out of duty more than anything...not a religious person myself....but saw a lot of well dresses sexy women. Was wondering if you can be religious and a swinger...as the two codes are somewhat at odds with each other....or am i wrong.

Yes my husband and I are both church goers, but we also swing. My husband has slightly different views to myself, so I won't speak on his behalf. For me I have always battled with my spiritual beliefs versus by desire/need for multiple sexual partners. Don't really know what to do, or what the answer is. But we are swinging and attending church, so rightly or wrongly we have made room for both in our life.

Mrs"

Ever had sex in a church? Bet you get a few lustful looks when you're there

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

Yes, the priesthood.

The catechism of the catholic Church defines a mortal sin as involving "a grave matter" (see clause 1858). In that clause adultery is specifically said to be a grave matter. Clause 2390 of the catechism says that extramarital sex is a grave sin.

Thus it is absolutely clear that extra martial sex is to the Catholic church a mortal sin and renders one liable to damnation. Of course sins can be forgiven but as I am sure you know forgiveness requires contrition and promise of amendment. Hence a swinger who intends to continue swinging is neither contrite nor promises amendment. Hence his sin cannot be forgiven.

The reality is of course that many people who call themselves catholics persist in a state of mortal sin (they might live with their unmarried partner for example) but that's because the official doctrines of their religion mean little or nothing to them. They are catholics in the sense that I am a Sheffield united supporter - its a badge of belonging and tribal adherence which doesn't actually entail any serious intellectual commitment.

Again, i noticed that none of these counter points start with, "i spoke to professional theologian priest x, rabbi y or imam z and they told me this". A lot of educated and intelligent people like yourself think they can just go direct to the source and read it as well as anyone else. Sorry but if catholics believed that was true then they'd be protestants! As i say, if it was that important to you then you'd spend half an hour of your life discussing it with a professional theologian.

Would you mind actually addressing my argument and telling me where it is wrong. I have gone to the catechism of the catholic Church which is absolutely clear that fornication is a mortal sin. I can't think of any more authoritative source than that.

If you are so certain fornication is not a mortal sin please point me to a link where it says that.

No i can't because im not a professional theologian, i don't pretend to have all the answers or pretend to be able to unterpret ancient texts properly. In the same way i can't explain to you why kombucha doesn't cure cancer, because im not a doctor either. I can just tell you that if you take up your concerns with a catholic priest then you'd understand how someone can simultaneously be a swinger and a catholic.

We are not talking about ancient texts we are talking about the current catechism of the catholic Church which sets out the current doctrine of the faith as decided by the pope, the cardinals and the bishops. . As I say that catechism is clear that fornication is a mortal sin and any priest who tells you otherwise is contradicting the official line.

It seems we have reached an impasse here. You say there are some unnamed priests who say fornication is not a mortal sin but you are either unwilling or in capable of putting forward their arguments or even pointing to some written authority so I can consider their arguments for myself. Apparently I have to track down some theologian to discuss it. Can you give me a name?

No just go down to your local catholic church and ask if being a swinger prevents you from being a christian. If you go to a church of england church you might even have a homosexual priest answer it for you...

For the sake of argument let's agree that some Catholic authorities say fornication is a mortal sin (see the catechism) and some say it isn't. (see your priest). What makes you think the latter is correct rather than the former? "

It's a more convenient answer for him, that's what.

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By *rontier PsychiatristMan  over a year ago

Coventry


"Us singles get a free ticket to heaven, whilst for couples it is adultery lol.

Wrong, sex outside the bonds of marriage is adultery. We are all sinners.

Only if you prescribe to that particular set of rules.

If I choose not to, then those rules no longer apply to me. Therefore I am not a sinner, but you are...

Your perspective and belief system is your own and you can bend it to work for you."

But then if you can bend it to your wish how valid is it as a legitimate and plausible evidence of a divine power? Personally I am a classic liberal so I am cool with people being what ever they want to be. But anyone who practises pick n mix scripture/rules should maybe consider their religion maybe be a man made construct and not divine.

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By *inkywife1981Couple  over a year ago

A town near you

We are both horny kinky and open minded people, we also like to think we are good natured and try to treat others as we would wish to be treated, we don't see the issue with swinging if we are honest and open with each other.

I think every religion is open to interpretation and there are a lot of religious people doing much worse things in the name of their god than swinging

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

people will interpret their religions to suit their own agenda and allow them to do as they please while still claiming to be religious. people have always done this and will continue to do this.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"This is one of those subjects that draw out the amateur theologians, usually on the 'no' side. A lot of nonsense already posted by people not understanding some very basic issues in christianity such as the difference between moral and venial sin, the difference between the old and new testament and the difference between gospels and other books of the bibles.

The answer is 'yes' you can be both. I really can't be bothered to explain it since anyone who really wanted the answer could just use the search function where it's been answered many times before. Or go and ask a priest a simple question; "are swingers barred from communion?" To which he will answer no and there endeth the lesson.

As far as I am aware all the mainstream Christian denominations hold it to be a sin to have sex outside marriage. Obviously sins can be forgiven but forgiveness defends on sincere contrition and promise of amendment. If you are a swinger you are obviously a persistent sinner with no contrition and no intention of amendment. I therefore find it difficult to see how one can be a Christian and a swinger, given that one sins against the tenets of the religion on a regular basis.

I would be interested if you could point me to any link where any mainstream Christian denomination says swinging is not sinful.

No it definately is a sin, but it's a venial sin. Like gluttony for example, have you ever seen a fat Catholic who eats too much? As I say, we can have this sixth form debating discussion but anyone who really wanted to know the answer would ask a professional theologian.

I have just done a quick Google and it seems pretty clear that at least that the Catholic Church defines fornication as a mortal sin. Can you point me to an authoritative source that says it is a venal sin?

Yes, the priesthood.

The catechism of the catholic Church defines a mortal sin as involving "a grave matter" (see clause 1858). In that clause adultery is specifically said to be a grave matter. Clause 2390 of the catechism says that extramarital sex is a grave sin.

Thus it is absolutely clear that extra martial sex is to the Catholic church a mortal sin and renders one liable to damnation. Of course sins can be forgiven but as I am sure you know forgiveness requires contrition and promise of amendment. Hence a swinger who intends to continue swinging is neither contrite nor promises amendment. Hence his sin cannot be forgiven.

The reality is of course that many people who call themselves catholics persist in a state of mortal sin (they might live with their unmarried partner for example) but that's because the official doctrines of their religion mean little or nothing to them. They are catholics in the sense that I am a Sheffield united supporter - its a badge of belonging and tribal adherence which doesn't actually entail any serious intellectual commitment.

Again, i noticed that none of these counter points start with, "i spoke to professional theologian priest x, rabbi y or imam z and they told me this". A lot of educated and intelligent people like yourself think they can just go direct to the source and read it as well as anyone else. Sorry but if catholics believed that was true then they'd be protestants! As i say, if it was that important to you then you'd spend half an hour of your life discussing it with a professional theologian.

Would you mind actually addressing my argument and telling me where it is wrong. I have gone to the catechism of the catholic Church which is absolutely clear that fornication is a mortal sin. I can't think of any more authoritative source than that.

If you are so certain fornication is not a mortal sin please point me to a link where it says that.

No i can't because im not a professional theologian, i don't pretend to have all the answers or pretend to be able to unterpret ancient texts properly. In the same way i can't explain to you why kombucha doesn't cure cancer, because im not a doctor either. I can just tell you that if you take up your concerns with a catholic priest then you'd understand how someone can simultaneously be a swinger and a catholic.

We are not talking about ancient texts we are talking about the current catechism of the catholic Church which sets out the current doctrine of the faith as decided by the pope, the cardinals and the bishops. . As I say that catechism is clear that fornication is a mortal sin and any priest who tells you otherwise is contradicting the official line.

It seems we have reached an impasse here. You say there are some unnamed priests who say fornication is not a mortal sin but you are either unwilling or in capable of putting forward their arguments or even pointing to some written authority so I can consider their arguments for myself. Apparently I have to track down some theologian to discuss it. Can you give me a name?

No just go down to your local catholic church and ask if being a swinger prevents you from being a christian. If you go to a church of england church you might even have a homosexual priest answer it for you... "

They are not true christians either, a priest should lead by example.

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By *inkywife1981Couple  over a year ago

A town near you

Well I believe in the big guy and try my best to be a good person but if being a horny kink stops him believing in me only time will tell !

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I have always found that those people who regularly attend a church or a mosque (as the case at be) and regularly break the accepted rules of those faiths always have an excuse or a get out card.

I like reading about church history in particular the various heresies. It has been clear that even from old testament times (certainy with the Abrahamic line) that for many practice of the doctine, belief in the doctrine , and strict adherence to the doctrine are three very different matters.

I have discovered that there is no point discussing faith with people who break the rules of their faith on a regular basis and knowingly do so, as they have (as I mentioned before) an exemption that applies to them or they claim the others of the faith interpret the doctrine wrongy.

I would just ask these religious people who swing to go to their colleagues in councils and tell them to leave swinging clubs and events alone and tell them the exemption they use.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I have always found that those people who regularly attend a church or a mosque (as the case at be) and regularly break the accepted rules of those faiths always have an excuse or a get out card.

I like reading about church history in particular the various heresies. It has been clear that even from old testament times (certainy with the Abrahamic line) that for many practice of the doctine, belief in the doctrine , and strict adherence to the doctrine are three very different matters.

I have discovered that there is no point discussing faith with people who break the rules of their faith on a regular basis and knowingly do so, as they have (as I mentioned before) an exemption that applies to them or they claim the others of the faith interpret the doctrine wrongy.

I would just ask these religious people who swing to go to their colleagues in councils and tell them to leave swinging clubs and events alone and tell them the exemption they use."

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 17/04/17 12:45:57]

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

It's pretty much impossible to follow any religion and not be accused of hypocrisy by someone. It's not fore to question how people reconcile their personal and religious beliefs

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By *imjohnCouple  over a year ago

Clacton on sea, Essex


"I would say no, totally incompatible, every major religion would condemn promiscuity."

Very true, as an ex church goer you cant mix the two & still retain that you are the same as others with their strong beliefs.

Its against the true grain of what a religion & its followers believe so to openly admit you can mix the two just makes a mockery of what your religion stands for.

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By *risky_MareWoman  over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

One can still have strong belief of course, and go to church etc, but to my mind you would have to accept there was a conflict - the same as in any other area of life.

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By *reedy_for_funCouple  over a year ago

My House

Firstly, it depends on whether you believe in invisable, omnipotent beings or not.

Secondly, if you do believe, do you REALLY believe that something that has the power to bring life from nothing really can be bothered what you do in the bedroom and whom with?

Religious morals are a construct of humans themselves. All the rules are only a way of maintaining control. Some are self evident (do not kill, do not steal), others are merely rules that are basically 'this is mine and I'm not sharing' (do not covet).

For myself, I consider all monotheist religions as intrinsically evil. Their only aim is to control you, with all the power left in the hands of only a select few. Do not trust anyone who claims that they, and they alone, know the word of God. They are the least trustworthy and least religious of all people.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

From my understanding of Christianity we are all sinners.

I would say there are far worse sins than swinging between consenting adults.

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago

wow will have to think of another topic for next sunday....never thought that i would get this amount of feedback. Thanks all

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By *oderndaylivesCouple  over a year ago

Bristol

Yes I'm religious. And once at a different church I recognised a guy with his family who I had last seen being whipped by a dominatrix.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

No they are not compatible unless your half arsed and enjoy going ahainst your religion. People are religous when it suits them

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By *MaleMan  over a year ago


"A deep discussion this morning. Interested if any of you religious in any way. I went to mass yesterday out of duty more than anything...not a religious person myself....but saw a lot of well dresses sexy women. Was wondering if you can be religious and a swinger...as the two codes are somewhat at odds with each other....or am i wrong. "

For sure people can be religious and swingers. The fact that one contradicts the other is something else. Somewhat ironic, hypocritical or laughable if practicing but there's nothing new there

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago


"Yes I'm religious. And once at a different church I recognised a guy with his family who I had last seen being whipped by a dominatrix. "

Well that tops it all....

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By *eakcoupleCouple  over a year ago

peak district

We are both Pagans (we met at an event called Druid Camp) and sex is definitely not discouraged or frowned upon among Pagans. It's considered natural, healthy and as long as you both consent, anything goes - group-sex, bisexuality, whatever. We know of several other Pagan swinger couples. Nudity is perfectly OK too - we have been to Pagan camps where many people have been nude.

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By *uckandbunnyCouple  over a year ago

In your bed

I assume the don't judge others mantra does not apply on this thread.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"We are both Pagans (we met at an event called Druid Camp) and sex is definitely not discouraged or frowned upon among Pagans. It's considered natural, healthy and as long as you both consent, anything goes - group-sex, bisexuality, whatever. We know of several other Pagan swinger couples. Nudity is perfectly OK too - we have been to Pagan camps where many people have been nude. "

O9A have some very kinky rituals, masses and sermons too

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By *ohnaronMan  over a year ago

london

Since the priests of most major religions wear frocks why would they frown on our activities?

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By *ikeC81Man  over a year ago

harrow

I know a number of church goes that either used to swing or still participate in activities that would concidderd deviant by the church - watching lesbian gangbang porn for example

Can you have relegion and swing, well I am never sure but I always think can I be suit wearing accountant Monday to Friday and at the weekend a football top chav, I can

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By *oderndaylivesCouple  over a year ago

Bristol


"No they are not compatible unless your half arsed and enjoy going ahainst your religion. People are religous when it suits them"

Is it realistic to follow what people interpret to be their religion to the letter? Unless you are a monk. I'm a Christian and I have those values. I'm not chaste, clearly, but I don't consider swinging to be breaking (other people's) marriage vows if the couple are consenting. Following a religion doesn't make you a good person. But religion can be about what you feel and the balance of your core and spirituality, or something something. I don't think I'm going to hell for being a swinger

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By *reygorCouple  over a year ago

birmingham

wow some views on this over last few hours .bottom line if you are going to chams next week .take a bible .then you can sit in bar area and debate what you wish .me and k will be fucking some where in there with some one we dont know today .the lord works in mysterious ways for shore.keep on fabbing

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Was wondering if you can be religious and a swinger...as the two codes are somewhat at odds with each other....or am i wrong. "

Can you be religious and a swinger? Of course. Our spiritual/religious outlook is what got us into swinging. Free love has a longer history with the spiritual community than with the secular so keep your revisionist mitts off it

Can you belong to an organised religion and be a swinger? That's an entirely different question but again of course you can. It's just a building with some chairs in and some guy who reads from a book. You can do any monstrosity and still be a member of a Faith. Heck, why stop there... why not join the clergy?

Do any of the Faiths rule on the issue of swinging? This again is a totally different question. But it should be just an issue of fact; either they have or they haven't. To my knowledge swinging (consensual non-covetous sex with others within a marriage and not outside working against it) is a modern invention not touched on by any of the Faiths sacred books. As such, any ruling on the issue would need to be done by the heads of the Faiths. Have they made any such rulings on swinging? I'm not aware of any. But even if they had would their ruling be the infallible word of God? Of course not. They're just a bunch of people in hats telling you what they think a book says.

As this thread has shown, atheists have dangerous sympathies with extremist fundamentalists. To them, religion is about strictly following the precise wording of a text. Those who don't do this are hypocrites, whilst those who do it really strictly are to be applauded and admired for doing "religion" properly. What all atheists miss is, of course, the existence of the loving universe and the central role of all religions, organised or not, to help people form a bond with it. It is this loving relationship with the divine that is what doing "religion" properly is really about, not following a text or the advice of a bunch of men in frocks. The measure of a religious person is how much they know and love God, not how strictly, inflexibly, and inhumanely they adhere to a text. If that doesn't make sense to you then you simply don't know nor understand religion

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Does ohhhhhhh my fucking godddddd count has religion ?

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Does ohhhhhhh my fucking godddddd count has religion ? "

An orgasm is the purest religious expression of all

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Does ohhhhhhh my fucking godddddd count has religion ?

An orgasm is the purest religious expression of all "

There we go . I'm almost a priest

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Was wondering if you can be religious and a swinger...as the two codes are somewhat at odds with each other....or am i wrong.

Can you be religious and a swinger? Of course. Our spiritual/religious outlook is what got us into swinging. Free love has a longer history with the spiritual community than with the secular so keep your revisionist mitts off it

Can you belong to an organised religion and be a swinger? That's an entirely different question but again of course you can. It's just a building with some chairs in and some guy who reads from a book. You can do any monstrosity and still be a member of a Faith. Heck, why stop there... why not join the clergy?

Do any of the Faiths rule on the issue of swinging? This again is a totally different question. But it should be just an issue of fact; either they have or they haven't. To my knowledge swinging (consensual non-covetous sex with others within a marriage and not outside working against it) is a modern invention not touched on by any of the Faiths sacred books. As such, any ruling on the issue would need to be done by the heads of the Faiths. Have they made any such rulings on swinging? I'm not aware of any. But even if they had would their ruling be the infallible word of God? Of course not. They're just a bunch of people in hats telling you what they think a book says.

As this thread has shown, atheists have dangerous sympathies with extremist fundamentalists. To them, religion is about strictly following the precise wording of a text. Those who don't do this are hypocrites, whilst those who do it really strictly are to be applauded and admired for doing "religion" properly. What all atheists miss is, of course, the existence of the loving universe and the central role of all religions, organised or not, to help people form a bond with it. It is this loving relationship with the divine that is what doing "religion" properly is really about, not following a text or the advice of a bunch of men in frocks. The measure of a religious person is how much they know and love God, not how strictly, inflexibly, and inhumanely they adhere to a text. If that doesn't make sense to you then you simply don't know nor understand religion "

Very well said

Mrs

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By *andemanMan  over a year ago

bedforshire

Ok couple of points. Religion=set of beliefs.

Faith=a relationship with God.

Bible old and new testement says sex is bad basically.

Other religions have thier own veiws.

Frankly we are all Sinners,thats the Human race as a whole not just swingers.

No one is good enough to claim salvation as a right. If it is a test than all of humanity is dammed.

Funny thing is that my Faith tells me I (and the rest of you for that matter) are Loved and becouse of that Love we are saved. Its called the doctrine of Grace.

A jelious God wants you and me and will do everything they can to get us safely through.

While thats not a Licence to sin it is a promise. God keeps his promises.

My previous post could be seen as Risk reduction or as responding to that promise.

Clearly most (not all) on this thread wish to engage in the old chestnuts and not in the relationship. Thats fine but the OPs answer to the origonal question is in the Relationship.

Go ask God the question listen for the answer and act on it.

Me I will trust God and get on with my life.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan  over a year ago

London


"

As this thread has shown, atheists have dangerous sympathies with extremist fundamentalists. To them, religion is about strictly following the precise wording of a text. Those who don't do this are hypocrites, whilst those who do it really strictly are to be applauded and admired for doing "religion" properly. What all atheists miss is, of course, the existence of the loving universe and the central role of all religions, organised or not, to help people form a bond with it. It is this loving relationship with the divine that is what doing "religion" properly is really about, not following a text or the advice of a bunch of men in frocks. The measure of a religious person is how much they know and love God, not how strictly, inflexibly, and inhumanely they adhere to a text. If that doesn't make sense to you then you simply don't know nor understand religion "

Sorry, but the whole point of religions is to follow a certain set of doctrines/beliefs. What you're describing in believing in a shared experience and universal love and all that good stuff is being spiritual. That is not at all the same as being religious.

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By *ndecidedMan  over a year ago

London

Isn't it deliciously dirty to corrupt a religious person and watch them try everything new?

Or...Rebelling against religion a little and doing naughty things?

That said, people of every religion are into groupsex,

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"The measure of a religious person is how much they know and love God, not how strictly, inflexibly, and inhumanely they adhere to a text. If that doesn't make sense to you then you simply don't know nor understand religion

Sorry, but the whole point of religions is to follow a certain set of doctrines/beliefs. What you're describing in believing in a shared experience and universal love and all that good stuff is being spiritual. That is not at all the same as being religious. "

I take it you're not religious as a religious person would never define "religion" in this empty unspiritual way. Your concept of religion is an anti-Faith parody of it, intended to rob it of its heart and portray it as an empty pointless negative activity. The purpose of the Faiths is the adoration of the divine and is, as such, deeply spiritual.

What sets religion aside from spirituality is merely depth of feeling, loyalty, and resolve. Most spiritual people are happy serving themselves, on a personal quest to seek enlightenment. Religious people, however, serve a cause higher than themselves, they are an instrument to be used by the divine. If you're going to be anti-religious at least make an effort to understand it.

The problem you're referring to isn't a religious problem it's a superstitious one. It's the problem of people who join Faiths for the wrong reasons, who aren't really spiritual but are just following what the herd is doing so they can evade some terrible fate. Though the Faiths may be full of these people that doesn't mean they exemplify religiosity. They don't... and most Faiths are painfully aware of their failure to get through to these people

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I see people are still bending religion to suit their own agendas then

That's the thing with religion...you don't have to actually believe what's written down..your allowed to read in between the lines and make it mean any old crap you like, it's all pretty meaningless shite really if you can just make it mean whatever you like

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"The measure of a religious person is how much they know and love God, not how strictly, inflexibly, and inhumanely they adhere to a text. If that doesn't make sense to you then you simply don't know nor understand religion

Sorry, but the whole point of religions is to follow a certain set of doctrines/beliefs. What you're describing in believing in a shared experience and universal love and all that good stuff is being spiritual. That is not at all the same as being religious.

I take it you're not religious as a religious person would never define "religion" in this empty unspiritual way. Your concept of religion is an anti-Faith parody of it, intended to rob it of its heart and portray it as an empty pointless negative activity. The purpose of the Faiths is the adoration of the divine and is, as such, deeply spiritual.

What sets religion aside from spirituality is merely depth of feeling, loyalty, and resolve. Most spiritual people are happy serving themselves, on a personal quest to seek enlightenment. Religious people, however, serve a cause higher than themselves, they are an instrument to be used by the divine. If you're going to be anti-religious at least make an effort to understand it.

The problem you're referring to isn't a religious problem it's a superstitious one. It's the problem of people who join Faiths for the wrong reasons, who aren't really spiritual but are just following what the herd is doing so they can evade some terrible fate. Though the Faiths may be full of these people that doesn't mean they exemplify religiosity. They don't... and most Faiths are painfully aware of their failure to get through to these people "

I would like to add to that, that the teachings of Christ, were not about obeying rules, but more about love and respect and generally behaving in a way to create a better world. Christ was extremely critical of those who obeyed the letter of the law, when they had no love in their hearts. He also spent more time with people who were considered by society as sinners. I regard the true meaning of Christianity to be more associated with having a personal relationship with God, and striving to be a better person, but at the same time a acknowledging that we are all sinners, as opposed to following a list of rules. Am I committing a sin by swinging? Possibly. Does that make me a hypocrite? Of course not, I'm not telling people not to do something then going and doing it myself. Why do I sin? As with all human beings I am not capable of living a sin free life. Would Christ chuck me out the church for sinning? No more so than he condemned the 'woman at the well' - he treated her sins as equal to everybody else's sins.

Mrs

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I see people are still bending religion to suit their own agendas then

That's the thing with religion...you don't have to actually believe what's written down..your allowed to read in between the lines and make it mean any old crap you like, it's all pretty meaningless shite really if you can just make it mean whatever you like "

So on that basis, what should I do? I have a personal spiritual belief. I have faith in much of biblical teachings. But I am not capable of following the rules.

Mrs

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Biblical death toll:

God = in excess of 2 million

Satan = 10

Btw before anyone asks or comments, I'm not a Satanist, I'm an Atheist and by definition I do not believe in anything supernatural.

But we are all Atheists to some degree.

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