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prostitutes at swinging club (part 2)
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"Isn't it just simpler to keep the two things seperate and avoid as much grey misunderstandings as possible. that would be the best solution...at least that way people know exactly where they stand... I agree. Would like to add that swinging clubs are perfectly legal in this country, operating a brothel is not. The moment an owner pays women to be in a club with a view to having sex (even by choice) with 'members' it becomes a brothel. No grey area. " Actually there is a grey area between if swinging clubs are legal... have you ever read the small print... its actually extremely similar.. and as I have been involved in planning to open one.. you certainly don't register it as a swinging club... for instance I know three known swinging clubs that are registered as health spas.. Reason being like it or not, the average person see's no difference between a either sort of club... except one the ladies and gents get paid... the other they don't.. Now we know that in a swinging club there is no guarantee of sex... but I've seem people turned away from brothals too.. (worked as a receptionist in my youth at a "massage" parlour and spa ) and bad behaviour will get men refused just as much their.. in fact, dare I say it... they take much less hassle than woman do at swinging clubs. Katie X | |||
".......... as someone else said "if they are paid to be there and they don't do anything, they are hardly likely to be invited back now aren't they!" ................" That might have been me but that wasn't what I was saying. What I took from the comments about the club mentioned was that they were saying to paying clients that, 'if you're only here to watch and not to play - don't expect to be invited back'. | |||
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"I had just been about to put this on the other thread.. so hope its okay to put it here now Isn't it just simpler to keep the two things seperate and avoid as much grey misunderstandings as possible. that would be the best solution...at least that way people know exactly where they stand... I agree. Would like to add that swinging clubs are perfectly legal in this country, operating a brothel is not. The moment an owner pays women to be in a club with a view to having sex (even by choice) with 'members' it becomes a brothel. No grey area. Actually there is a grey area between if swinging clubs are legal... have you ever read the small print... its actually extremely similar.. and as I have been involved in planning to open one.. you certainly don't register it as a swinging club... for instance I know three known swinging clubs that are registered as health spas.. Reason being like it or not, the average person see's no difference between a either sort of club... except one the ladies and gents get paid... the other they don't.. Now we know that in a swinging club there is no guarantee of sex... but I've seem people turned away from brothals too.. (worked as a receptionist in my youth at a "massage" parlour and spa ) and bad behaviour will get men refused just as much their.. in fact, dare I say it... they take much less hassle than woman do at swinging clubs. Katie X " Now this is my only problem. They may register under one title, but surely it depends on how they are advertising. The retro club advertises as a swinging club the private club advertises as such | |||
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" Now this is my only problem. They may register under one title, but surely it depends on how they are advertising. The retro club advertises as a swinging club the private club advertises as such" It may advertise as one.. but it would be interesting to see what it is registered as.. Read the signs up and chams etc.. its a disclaimer, it will read similar to those that you see on escort sites.. Now I know that there is a difference... but general public dont see it as any different.. So most are registered as Private health spas... Btw before anyone assumes ( as a few pms have suggested) that I am working at these clubs, no.. I am and have been for some time advising and helping to open a club, hence I research everything... And actually are considering one night a week eventually having hostess girls there.. however, more as a sex show ( amstadam style) if the girls choose to stay on after thier show that will be there thing..but myself and the management team are undecided as yet.. Katie. x | |||
" Now this is my only problem. They may register under one title, but surely it depends on how they are advertising. The retro club advertises as a swinging club the private club advertises as such It may advertise as one.. but it would be interesting to see what it is registered as.. Read the signs up and chams etc.. its a disclaimer, it will read similar to those that you see on escort sites.. Now I know that there is a difference... but general public dont see it as any different.. So most are registered as Private health spas... Btw before anyone assumes ( as a few pms have suggested) that I am working at these clubs, no.. I am and have been for some time advising and helping to open a club, hence I research everything... And actually are considering one night a week eventually having hostess girls there.. however, more as a sex show ( amstadam style) if the girls choose to stay on after thier show that will be there thing..but myself and the management team are undecided as yet.. Katie. x" So is that not false advertising then. Advertising as a swingers club when its a spa/private club | |||
" So is that not false advertising then. Advertising as a swingers club when its a spa/private club" What I am saying is its how all clubs register.... they may advertise as a swinging club.. but I know from asking people when we were intially setting up the club that you register it as a private health spa... Doesnt matter what the websites say.. read the small print.. and if one club is doing it all are... Even the big popular ones.. Katie. x | |||
"From what I am lead to believe its a fixed fee to cover expenses... " I thought we were long past hiding what it is behond the term 'expenses'. | |||
"shame the other thread got so big... so continuing on the thread here... can i clarify my position a bit.. I don't have a problem with "sex workers" at all, come across a few in my time of swinging in clubs.. however they have always been in clubs in there leisure time... if that sounds rights... so purely for enjoyment as opposed to being paid to be there... and that is where the line for a lot of people being there... as someone else said "if they are paid to be there and they don't do anything, they are hardly likely to be invited back now aren't they!" I just think it sends out the wrongs signals to people... there is a huge difference between a swinging club and a brothel... it doesn't matter for me if it is the person basically handing over the money or the club to the girls.. it just shouldn't be part of the "swinging club" experience.... i would ask people why the lines should be blurred... surely if the lines were drawn in the sand so to speak, then people would know where they stand and what in effect they are paying for...." Some very good points you have made there. Clarification of where you stand and what you are paying for should be a must as i see it. | |||
"I had just been about to put this on the other thread.. so hope its okay to put it here now Isn't it just simpler to keep the two things seperate and avoid as much grey misunderstandings as possible. that would be the best solution...at least that way people know exactly where they stand... I agree. Would like to add that swinging clubs are perfectly legal in this country, operating a brothel is not. The moment an owner pays women to be in a club with a view to having sex (even by choice) with 'members' it becomes a brothel. No grey area. Actually there is a grey area between if swinging clubs are legal... have you ever read the small print... its actually extremely similar.. and as I have been involved in planning to open one.. you certainly don't register it as a swinging club... for instance I know three known swinging clubs that are registered as health spas.. Reason being like it or not, the average person see's no difference between a either sort of club... except one the ladies and gents get paid... the other they don't.. Now we know that in a swinging club there is no guarantee of sex... but I've seem people turned away from brothals too.. (worked as a receptionist in my youth at a "massage" parlour and spa ) and bad behaviour will get men refused just as much their.. in fact, dare I say it... they take much less hassle than woman do at swinging clubs. Katie X " I believe your wrong on this one Katie. Swinging Clubs are are as legal as any other private members clubs, admittedly it's not easy to get planning permission for them but they are perfectly legal. Running a brothel is illegal. There is no grey area! I actually think they should legalise brothels, it seems crazy to me that as a nation we are still so conservative in this area, but the law is clearly black and white. | |||
" ............ I believe your wrong on this one Katie. Swinging Clubs are are as legal as any other private members clubs, admittedly it's not easy to get planning permission for them but they are perfectly legal. Running a brothel is illegal. There is no grey area! I actually think they should legalise brothels, it seems crazy to me that as a nation we are still so conservative in this area, but the law is clearly black and white. " IS the law black and white? I thought the law about brothel keeping, prostitution and keeping a disorderly house was deliberately kept obscure (particularly in England and Wales) in an attempt to make it difficlt for people to stay on the right side of the law. | |||
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"Years ago there was a court case highlighted in the papers, where a gentleman was prosecuted and fined £2k for living off immoral earnings and 'keeping a brothel'. He was done after a lady, who went to his sex club with her sister, made a complaint as she was shocked to see 20 people having group sex in the swimming pool. If I remember rightly, the fact that single women got in free and that men and couples had to pay, meant that he was providing women for sex, as it wasn't a club that charged membership fees. The law is an ass. A single woman can work as an escort no problems, but as soon as you have two escorts working in the same building it's classified as a brothel. I wish the whole thing was licensed just like they do in New Zealand, would certainly clarify things better. " I agree with you, when they set these laws they're always managing to the lowest common denominator. They assume the worst that all prostitutes are being forced into the lifestyle by some pimp. Legalise it, licence it and tax it...... | |||
"The cold fact is that they don't register as Swinging Clubs because they would never get planning permission. That's it. We can try and make it grey but it actually isn't. The law is clear and unambiguous. Have a little read of the sexual offences act 1956 and 2003 (I think). The signs in a club 'exempting' them mean nothing if the club has paid sex workers to be available for their choice of men. If there's no payments then there's no need for the signs. It's not an offence for anyone to have sex wherever they like (apart from indecency!). " It's not really about planning permission. You can take over an existing premise exactly as it is and try to open a swinger's club in it without needing planning permissions or consents. What you DO need (at least in Scotland) is some form of licence. The most common licence sought and granted in these circumstances is a Public Entertainment Licence (which can cover a multitude of sins) and then try to push the boundaries of what you can do there as far as you can before someone complains. Then there's the whole business (which I don't pretend to understand) of sui generis which seems to imply that once you have one type of licence for premises it's much easier to get it changed to another type than it is to get one in the first place. As for a 'Swinger's Club Licence' I don't think such a thing exists (at least in Scotland). I might be wrong. | |||
" .......... Legalise it, licence it and tax it......" I don't envisage that ever happening. This (the UK) is still a profoundly conservative (small c) county and that shows no signs of changing. | |||
" .......... Legalise it, licence it and tax it...... I don't envisage that ever happening. This (the UK) is still a profoundly conservative (small c) county and that shows no signs of changing." Your right, we are probably more likely to go the way of Sweden. | |||
" .......... Legalise it, licence it and tax it...... I don't envisage that ever happening. This (the UK) is still a profoundly conservative (small c) county and that shows no signs of changing. Your right, we are probably more likely to go the way of Sweden. " What do they do in Sweden? | |||
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"ok just going off subject but not really and its always made me wonder why a city like nottingham has not got a swingers club but as i know the police that the vice are very hard in notts just seems strange derby and leicester and brum have any ideas why "It can be down to something as simple as the views of the local parish priest or minister, the Chief Superintendent at the local cop shop, the editor of the local paper or any concerned citizen who starts a campaign to stop a club being opened or to get it shut. Edinburgh, or rather Leith, had a prostitution tolerance zone a few years back and, by all it accounts, it worked really well. A change in local representation brought someone with very different views and it was shut down. Sometimes it doesn't come down to whether something is legal or lawful - it's about whether it can be sustained in the face of pressure from local people, local civic society and possibly the attention of HMRC.  | |||
"ok just going off subject but not really and its always made me wonder why a city like nottingham has not got a swingers club but as i know the police that the vice are very hard in notts just seems strange derby and leicester and brum have any ideas why "it can depend on the local council and the attitude they take.. and we have the same situation here, where durham and wearside have turned a blind eye.. tyneside did till the clubs there were outed in the local papers.. but middlesboro and teeside come down really hard on it... | |||
"ok just going off subject but not really and its always made me wonder why a city like nottingham has not got a swingers club but as i know the police that the vice are very hard in notts just seems strange derby and leicester and brum have any ideas why
it can depend on the local council and the attitude they take.. and we have the same situation here, where durham and wearside have turned a blind eye.. tyneside did till the clubs there were outed in the local papers.. but middlesboro and teeside come down really hard on it... "Sounds like it's about following the votes. | |||
" Your right, we are probably more likely to go the way of Sweden. What do they do in Sweden?" They have tighter laws on prostitution. It is illegal to pay for sex over there. Don't forget that prostitution over here is actually legal. | |||
" Your right, we are probably more likely to go the way of Sweden. What do they do in Sweden? They have tighter laws on prostitution. It is illegal to pay for sex over there. Don't forget that prostitution over here is actually legal. " Is that actually the case? I thought that whilst SELLING sex is legal, ASKING FOR MONEY for sex isn't. | |||
" Your right, we are probably more likely to go the way of Sweden. What do they do in Sweden? They have tighter laws on prostitution. It is illegal to pay for sex over there. Don't forget that prostitution over here is actually legal. Is that actually the case? I thought that whilst SELLING sex is legal, ASKING FOR MONEY for sex isn't." Asking for money is perfectly legal,being paid for sex is perfectly legal. Your claim that the situation in England is deliberately complicated is wrong,we have very simple if stupid laws,that endanger sex workers. Soliciting is illegal,however this is restricted to women on the streets.Areas that push a ban on street prostitution force the women into more dangerous situations where they cannot watch out for each other.Areas which have a tolerance policy have been able to organise mobile clinics ,safe calls and trained officers. Interestingly the ipswich murders happened after a police crack down,and many of the sex workers knew the perpetrator but did not come forward with their concerns because the local police had a zero tolerance approach. Brothels are illegal.However the definition of a brothel is so wide as to again put sex workers at risk.Last year there was a very important case,a group of sex workers got together to work from the same house,they felt safe and knew that if anything went wrong their were other women,and in some cases husbands,n the premises to protect them.The neighbours had no complaints and it was working well until the police turned up.Happily the jury found the woman not guilty, although questions are still being asked about the fact police forces can financially benefit from seizing the assets of those they accuse of brothel keeping. A quote about the raid "My main thing was safety," Finch said. "It's not safe to work on your own. With two of us you had back-up, you had camaraderie." In November 2008, 20 police officers broke down Finch's front door and searched her house, taking £700 from her purse that she says had been put aside to pay the mortgage. Her laptop computer, mobile phone, driving licence and passport were also taken. No receipt was given. Since she was raided, Finch has been forced to work alone. Her neighbours have no complaints about her activities and will attend court tomorrow to support her. Carrie Mitchell, of the ECP, said: "It used to be relatively rare for police to bring prosecutions for brothel-keeping but this has changed; it's being driven by a moral crusade.". Under the Proceeds of Crime Act, the police keep 25% of any assets confiscated from raids, the Crown Prosecution Service keeps another 25%, and the Inland Revenue the rest. The ECP said this has meant that police and prosecutors have a vested interest in raiding alleged brothels. "Even if no one is charged, the money is rarely returned," the collective stated. "Women lose not only their livelihood but their home, car, life savings, jewellery, and so on. This theft by law enforcement is the worst form of pimping. | |||
" Your right, we are probably more likely to go the way of Sweden. What do they do in Sweden? They have tighter laws on prostitution. It is illegal to pay for sex over there. Don't forget that prostitution over here is actually legal. Is that actually the case? I thought that whilst SELLING sex is legal, ASKING FOR MONEY for sex isn't. Asking for money is perfectly legal,being paid for sex is perfectly legal. Your claim that the situation in England is deliberately complicated is wrong,we have very simple if stupid laws,that endanger sex workers. Soliciting is illegal,however this is restricted to women on the streets.Areas that push a ban on street prostitution force the women into more dangerous situations where they cannot watch out for each other.Areas which have a tolerance policy have been able to organise mobile clinics ,safe calls and trained officers. Interestingly the ipswich murders happened after a police crack down,and many of the sex workers knew the perpetrator but did not come forward with their concerns because the local police had a zero tolerance approach. Brothels are illegal.However the definition of a brothel is so wide as to again put sex workers at risk.Last year there was a very important case,a group of sex workers got together to work from the same house,they felt safe and knew that if anything went wrong their were other women,and in some cases husbands,n the premises to protect them.The neighbours had no complaints and it was working well until the police turned up.Happily the jury found the woman not guilty, although questions are still being asked about the fact police forces can financially benefit from seizing the assets of those they accuse of brothel keeping. A quote about the raid "My main thing was safety," Finch said. "It's not safe to work on your own. With two of us you had back-up, you had camaraderie." In November 2008, 20 police officers broke down Finch's front door and searched her house, taking £700 from her purse that she says had been put aside to pay the mortgage. Her laptop computer, mobile phone, driving licence and passport were also taken. No receipt was given. Since she was raided, Finch has been forced to work alone. Her neighbours have no complaints about her activities and will attend court tomorrow to support her. Carrie Mitchell, of the ECP, said: "It used to be relatively rare for police to bring prosecutions for brothel-keeping but this has changed; it's being driven by a moral crusade.". Under the Proceeds of Crime Act, the police keep 25% of any assets confiscated from raids, the Crown Prosecution Service keeps another 25%, and the Inland Revenue the rest. The ECP said this has meant that police and prosecutors have a vested interest in raiding alleged brothels. "Even if no one is charged, the money is rarely returned," the collective stated. "Women lose not only their livelihood but their home, car, life savings, jewellery, and so on. This theft by law enforcement is the worst form of pimping. " Below applies to England and Wales - Christ only knows what the law is in Scotland.... Swingers clubs don't need a licence provided they don't provide alcohol, late night refreshments or any kind of regulated entertainment under the Licensing Act. They might fall foul of the Local Government Miscellaneous Provisions Act 1982 on licensing sex establishments but again that depends on what they offer and where they are. A swingers club might well be prosecuted under the common law offence of keeping a disorderly house, but I suspect that would be a hard road for a prosecutor these days as it's an offence with very unclear language that would run up against a human rights challenge. A planning application for a swingers club might well be sui generis, but that doesn't mean there is any difference in the way in which the application is handled, or dealt with subsequently - it just means that the type of premise sis unique. If you were applying to change from, say, licensed premises (a pub) to a swingers club, you'd probably argue that although the new use is sui generis it's not materially different to the previous use - a cute lawyer might even argue that a change of use wasn't required, but I'd run a mile from that. Going the other way, from a sui generis use to one covered by the act and existing policies, is covered by the same judgement on whether the use is materially different. Calling it a health spa is probably a much easier way of getting past the planners.... | |||
" Now this is my only problem. They may register under one title, but surely it depends on how they are advertising. The retro club advertises as a swinging club the private club advertises as such It may advertise as one.. but it would be interesting to see what it is registered as.. Read the signs up and chams etc.. its a disclaimer, it will read similar to those that you see on escort sites.. Now I know that there is a difference... but general public dont see it as any different.. So most are registered as Private health spas... Btw before anyone assumes ( as a few pms have suggested) that I am working at these clubs, no.. I am and have been for some time advising and helping to open a club, hence I research everything... And actually are considering one night a week eventually having hostess girls there.. however, more as a sex show ( amstadam style) if the girls choose to stay on after thier show that will be there thing..but myself and the management team are undecided as yet.. Katie. x So is that not false advertising then. Advertising as a swingers club when its a spa/private club" hmmmm registered as a spa/health club? So what are they charging men,women and couples for their membership fee? must be the same fee as they can't charge differently. and shouldn't be in a swinging club either! but who will be the first to challenge?! however as I said in part 1 no place for both in one venue, if not only for legal reasons but because the premise of why they both exist is poles apart. in my view. no probs with sex workers as its the oldest profession in the world | |||
" hmmmm registered as a spa/health club? So what are they charging men,women and couples for their membership fee? must be the same fee as they can't charge differently. and shouldn't be in a swinging club either! but who will be the first to challenge?! " as has been quoted in other thread.. they do have some get outs which is why it is not going to be challenged.. or it would be very stupid to..... the protected status's in the act are: disability, gender realignment, Pregnancy and Maternity, race, religion, Sex and Sexual Orientation..... but doesn't say anything about marital status though..... therefore if you go as a "couple" and consider yourself to be a "couple", then that isn't covered.... so they can charge couples differently then they can singles....... so from what I read, Technically you can't differently charge single guys and single fems...... or between Couples (MM),Couples (MF) and Couples (FF) However in Clubs CAN still have different rules attached to the different types (so before two single guys decide to test the "couple" thing.... I wouldn't be surprised if they put in a "stay together play together" clause to make people think twice about it......) also under the act you are Allowed to positively discriminate for groups of people that are "under represented" as long as you can show that such measures are useful for redress the balances.... and we all know that people section under-represented at clubs are "single fems".... I think I chose the wrong profession to go into.... | |||
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so by using "diversity" they can happily charge single men and single women different prices......
you were right about one thing though... the act covers, disability,gender realignment, blah blah, ect ect... and it doesn't cover martial status
so they can price couples and singles differently.... but not couples(mf) couples(ff)or couples(mm).....but they are still allowed to but different rules on the "couples".....
you might wanna go and read the act again.. this time in finer detail... 
I went through the entire act for a club twice to see what it would mean...... | |||
" hmmmm registered as a spa/health club? So what are they charging men,women and couples for their membership fee? must be the same fee as they can't charge differently. and shouldn't be in a swinging club either! but who will be the first to challenge?! as has been quoted in other thread.. they do have some get outs which is why it is not going to be challenged.. or it would be very stupid to..... the protected status's in the act are: disability, gender realignment, Pregnancy and Maternity, race, religion, Sex and Sexual Orientation..... but doesn't say anything about marital status though..... therefore if you go as a "couple" and consider yourself to be a "couple", then that isn't covered.... so they can charge couples differently then they can singles....... so from what I read, Technically you can't differently charge single guys and single fems...... or between Couples (MM),Couples (MF) and Couples (FF) However in Clubs CAN still have different rules attached to the different types (so before two single guys decide to test the "couple" thing.... I wouldn't be surprised if they put in a "stay together play together" clause to make people think twice about it......) also under the act you are Allowed to positively discriminate for groups of people that are "under represented" as long as you can show that such measures are useful for redress the balances.... and we all know that people section under-represented at clubs are "single fems".... I think I chose the wrong profession to go into.... " I'm glad you didn't. Which clause of the act allows differential pricing of goods and services? | |||
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"Why does it matter what you call your club? And what’s more why does it matter if you do or don’t allow activities of a sexual nature to happen as pert of your clubs purpose for being? The 2003 Licensing Act aimed to bring in a more European style approach to licensing entertainment venues of a sexual nature… lap dancing clubs, gentlemen’s clubs etc…. separate rules applied to sex shops (I believe). It pretty much meant opening a gentlemen’s club wasn’t much more complex than opening a pub. So after lots of people being unhappy about such establishments opening up in their area, and the local councils being in a tricky spot of not easily being able to object to the increased number of applications for change of purpose and licensing, the Sexual Entertainment Licences was put forward for premises where ‘sexual encounters’ occurred. So what does that mean? The local councils may set a maximum number of licenses (which could be nil). Both existing licence holders and new applicants would need to battle it out for the council’s limited licence allocation. The argument then became about what counts as ‘sexual encounters’… and generally it is thought to mean where the fee paid was understood to include provision of some form of ‘sexual encounter/entertainmant’ by the establishment… such as a lap dance. Old rules: The local authority was limited to refusal if the venue WILL breach the “licensing objectives” If a club owner could show these objectives wouldn’t be breached, a licence which allows adult entertainment was almost sure to follow. What about Joe Public objecting? Well, the law stated all objections must be based on fact, not just on what they believed to be right. So saying it was too near to a school didn’t really cut the mustard if the club would only be open outside of school hours. And only people who lived in the immediate are could object. The new rules: A wider field of people may object. There are mandatory and DISCRETIONARY grounds on which the council can turn an application down… rather than clear cut limited ‘licensing objectives’. Even if there is no objection, the local authorities may have hit their license granting threshold…. which remember could be zero. So why would a club want to thinly hide the fact they are paying women to be in their establishment for the purpose of sexually pleasing some of its patrons I wonder? " Well I bit the bullet and called the Equality and Human Rights Commission and after an embarrassing first couple of minutes of trying to explain the style of 'club' have been given these answers and advice. A members Club is a club where new members have to be nominated and go before a panel to gain membership. so that rules out most swinging clubs. All other clubs are then defined as Service providers and as such if all parties can use the same facilities and services offered then you must pay the same fees. you can offer limited concessions to encourage participation for either gender or race if they are not equally represented, but these are for a limited time only e.g. 3 months at a reduced cost. You would see in the past ladies gaining entry to night clubs for free and I'm sure you're aware that can no longer happen..same principle different venue with a monthly fee. I would suggest giving them a call as the info on the web and its interpretation is a little confusing around protected status. Are you an association or a service provider? Even though you may describe yourself as a ‘club’ (and many clubs are, in equality law, associations), you are really a service provider if you are offering a service to any member of the public, for example, by: charging them an entry fee to watch an activity allowing anyone to join your leisure club provided they pay for the service even if the charge is described as a membership fee or if the service is free. If, for example, you allow a person to have a free trial session, you are still providing them with a service. extract taken | |||
