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Adultery
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"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. If your partner does not know or is not okay with it...it's cheating...plain and simple." Have to agree with this.  | |||
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"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. If your partner does not know or is not okay with it...it's cheating...plain and simple." The vow of monogamy in the marriage ceremony does not have a rider which says "unless otherwise agreed between the parties". Sex with others in marriage is adultery, whilst with the spouse's agreement, it may not necessarily be "cheating". I still struggle to understand why sex is so damned important to a relationship. Monogamy is after all only learnt behaviour from religious and social indoctrination. If sexual faithfulness to me was a universal and accurate measure of love and affection then I could not have loved, or be loved, by my mother, sister, children, extended family, male friends, etc etc. | |||
"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. If your partner does not know or is not okay with it...it's cheating...plain and simple."
Had this debate yesterday with a couple who are both married to others and swing with their long term partners, yet have set up a couples profile to play behind their partners backs.
In my book it's not the act but the deceit that makes it unacceptable. If you have to hide your actions from your partner or you know they wouldn't approve, it's wrong. | |||
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"I do wonder what would happen if one filed for divorce on the grounds that your spouse had a threesome with you... "There is no legal issue here. It would constitute sufficient legal ground for a divorce. | |||
"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. If your partner does not know or is not okay with it...it's cheating...plain and simple.
Had this debate yesterday with a couple who are both married to others and swing with their long term partners, yet have set up a couples profile to play behind their partners backs.
In my book it's not the act but the deceit that makes it unacceptable. If you have to hide your actions from your partner or you know they wouldn't approve, it's wrong."The deceit would not be necessary if sex was not placed on a pedistal by religions and society as an infallible measure of love and affection. | |||
"Life choices, plain and simple x" | |||
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"It stems back to 1536 and the Second British Temporal Statute which extended consanguinity to include any relations of a woman a man had previously had intercourse with. " Apr apo what?  | |||
"It stems back to 1536 and the Second British Temporal Statute which extended consanguinity to include any relations of a woman a man had previously had intercourse with. Apr apo what? "The who ha thingimmy what  | |||
"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. If your partner does not know or is not okay with it...it's cheating...plain and simple.
Had this debate yesterday with a couple who are both married to others and swing with their long term partners, yet have set up a couples profile to play behind their partners backs.
In my book it's not the act but the deceit that makes it unacceptable. If you have to hide your actions from your partner or you know they wouldn't approve, it's wrong."Absolutely spot on! It is the deceit and dishonesty that makes it wrong. You hear varying reasons on sites like this and if you think your reasons are justified then at least be honest to your partner, but put simply you are perfectly right. | |||
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" The deceit would not be necessary if sex was not placed on a pedistal by religions and society as an infallible measure of love and affection." It's got nothing to do with society or religion. Notions of loyalty, respect and jealousy are intrinsic not learned. That's why the majority of people find swinging a bit peculiar, not because of 'religious indoctrination'. Anyway what does it matter what 'society' thinks or religious people think? The fact is your wife would be devastated if she knew you were here with your mistress. You sound so arrogant suggesting that society is wrong and you and your selfish dick are right. Your wife is the only person you should be caring about. | |||
"Swinging is consentual, adultery is not. Pretty black and white to me..." It is black and white | |||
"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. If your partner does not know or is not okay with it...it's cheating...plain and simple. The vow of monogamy in the marriage ceremony does not have a rider which says "unless otherwise agreed between the parties". Sex with others in marriage is adultery, whilst with the spouse's agreement, it may not necessarily be "cheating". I still struggle to understand why sex is so damned important to a relationship. Monogamy is after all only learnt behaviour from religious and social indoctrination. If sexual faithfulness to me was a universal and accurate measure of love and affection then I could not have loved, or be loved, by my mother, sister, children, extended family, male friends, etc etc. " | |||
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"Life choices, plain and simple x" well said | |||
"Tangential to the theme of another thread on here: Do you consider swinging when married adulterous? What if it is. How can that be a problem if at all? I find this question one that I love to discuss with others in the lifestyle. "No I don't consider it adulterous | |||
"in this day and age when you can write your own vows, and many long term poly couples have four way wedding services. unless one partner is playing behind the others back. the term adultery is archaic and should be dropped from the divorce laws. California has had a 'no fault' divorce system for years, where no grounds are needed. really it all boils own to consent. does your S/O consent to you being in this lifestyle, as a couple do you both consent to what you get up to. its 2014 its about time we woke up and realised sex is just skin on skin fun and got over the hang ups imposed by religion and state in the medieval period. " Agree totally! Sex is fun and you are right it is 2014 and it is time that society should be open-minded. You are also perfectly right about consent. If one member of a couple plays alone and hasn't been honest with their partner, surely they are cheaters not swingers? All about being honest in our opinion. Whatever the reason they have to be here, at least be honest to their partner. | |||
"I do wonder what would happen if one filed for divorce on the grounds that your spouse had a threesome with you... "if your husband were ever feeling that way I suspect you would have a queue several miles long willing to step into his shoes!  | |||
"in this day and age when you can write your own vows, and many long term poly couples have four way wedding services. unless one partner is playing behind the others back. the term adultery is archaic and should be dropped from the divorce laws. California has had a 'no fault' divorce system for years, where no grounds are needed. really it all boils own to consent. does your S/O consent to you being in this lifestyle, as a couple do you both consent to what you get up to. its 2014 its about time we woke up and realised sex is just skin on skin fun and got over the hang ups imposed by religion and state in the medieval period. Agree totally! Sex is fun and you are right it is 2014 and it is time that society should be open-minded. You are also perfectly right about consent. If one member of a couple plays alone and hasn't been honest with their partner, surely they are cheaters not swingers? All about being honest in our opinion. Whatever the reason they have to be here, at least be honest to their partner." we see each negotiation as a separate issue, if the single we are seeing is married and their partner is unaware of what they are up to, really its down to them as that's their business. its not part of the negotiation we have undertaken to get our wicked way with them. attached people are often safer ie. no bunny boilers or love struck guys trying to split us up. you meet, get what you want and go your separate ways.... everyone getting their respective itches scratched | |||
" The deceit would not be necessary if sex was not placed on a pedistal by religions and society as an infallible measure of love and affection. It's got nothing to do with society or religion. Notions of loyalty, respect and jealousy are intrinsic not learned. That's why the majority of people find swinging a bit peculiar, not because of 'religious indoctrination'. Anyway what does it matter what 'society' thinks or religious people think? The fact is your wife would be devastated if she knew you were here with your mistress. You sound so arrogant suggesting that society is wrong and you and your selfish dick are right. Your wife is the only person you should be caring about. " Loyalty, respect and jealousy are intrinsic. So i ask you, do you get jealous when your man has a shit in another couple's toilet? No? The reason is, society and religion has brought you up to not see it as wrong. If sex were treated the same way then matters of loyalty, respect and jealousy would not be an issue either. My wife knows I am on here and that I have a friend on a couple profile. So I will ignore your inaccurate and judgemental second paragraph. | |||
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" Loyalty, respect and jealousy are intrinsic. So i ask you, do you get jealous when your man has a shit in another couple's toilet? No? The reason is, society and religion has brought you up to not see it as wrong. If sex were treated the same way then matters of loyalty, respect and jealousy would not be an issue either. My wife knows I am on here and that I have a friend on a couple profile. So I will ignore your inaccurate and judgemental second paragraph. " Quite happy to say that society has indeed taught me that going for 'a shit' and sexual intimacy are not the same thing.
If that's truly the case then I apologise. Your posts earlier this year and your reference to the necessity of deceit seemed to suggest otherwise! | |||
" Loyalty, respect and jealousy are intrinsic. So i ask you, do you get jealous when your man has a shit in another couple's toilet? No? The reason is, society and religion has brought you up to not see it as wrong. If sex were treated the same way then matters of loyalty, respect and jealousy would not be an issue either. My wife knows I am on here and that I have a friend on a couple profile. So I will ignore your inaccurate and judgemental second paragraph. Quite happy to say that society has indeed taught me that going for 'a shit' and sexual intimacy are not the same thing.
If that's truly the case then I apologise. Your posts earlier this year and your reference to the necessity of deceit seemed to suggest otherwise!"Ok. No worries. | |||
At least to me it is | |||
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" Loyalty, respect and jealousy are intrinsic. So i ask you, do you get jealous when your man has a shit in another couple's toilet? No? The reason is, society and religion has brought you up to not see it as wrong. If sex were treated the same way then matters of loyalty, respect and jealousy would not be an issue either. My wife knows I am on here and that I have a friend on a couple profile. So I will ignore your inaccurate and judgemental second paragraph. Quite happy to say that society has indeed taught me that going for 'a shit' and sexual intimacy are not the same thing.
If that's truly the case then I apologise. Your posts earlier this year and your reference to the necessity of deceit seemed to suggest otherwise!"With you on how you see it. Strange comparison taking a shit and sexual intimacy don't you think? | |||
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" Loyalty, respect and jealousy are intrinsic. So i ask you, do you get jealous when your man has a shit in another couple's toilet? No? The reason is, society and religion has brought you up to not see it as wrong. If sex were treated the same way then matters of loyalty, respect and jealousy would not be an issue either. My wife knows I am on here and that I have a friend on a couple profile. So I will ignore your inaccurate and judgemental second paragraph. Quite happy to say that society has indeed taught me that going for 'a shit' and sexual intimacy are not the same thing.
If that's truly the case then I apologise. Your posts earlier this year and your reference to the necessity of deceit seemed to suggest otherwise!
With you on how you see it.
Strange comparison taking a shit and sexual intimacy don't you think?"if you are into scat then its one and the same *shudders at the thought* | |||
"Surely you have to think why adultery is being committed in the first place. My Ex Wife committed adultery i was disappointed yes but not upset. I was disappointed that we could not talk and that she though adultery was the only way out of the relationship " Understand fully with what you are saying, and sure you will agree. It isn't about the act, but more about the dishonesty. | |||
"We should remember that polygamy is illegal throughout most of the western world. In light of this, I can't see why the state would wish to change adultery laws to exclude swingers. With or without your partners consent, if you have sex with someone else... it appears that this is adultery by it's current definition. The fact that the law does not support the swinging lifestyle is, surely, part of the charm of being a part of something which is still truly a counter culture At least to me it is "That doesn't have to be a moral judgement either - because marriage is defined as a monogamous contract, adultery is always going to be defined as a departure from that, and 'grounds' to say the contract has been broken. If people chopose adultery by consent and are happy with that the law has nothing to say - fill yer boots! | |||
"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. If your partner does not know or is not okay with it...it's cheating...plain and simple." This | |||
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"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. If your partner does not know or is not okay with it...it's cheating...plain and simple." this | |||
" In my book it's not the act but the deceit that makes it unacceptable. If you have to hide your actions from your partner or you know they wouldn't approve, it's wrong." and this | |||
"I do wonder what would happen if one filed for divorce on the grounds that your spouse had a threesome with you...
There is no legal issue here. It would constitute sufficient legal ground for a divorce."as a practising family solicitor, I can put you right there, its not quite as clean cut as that, if for instance there was sufficient evidence to support that both husband and wife entered into the threesome with each others full consent and blessing and neither was been coerced/blackmailed etc then it would not be grounds for divorce, so the law doesnt necessarily view swinging as adultery, but equally it can be, it isnt clear cut in the eyes of the law. | |||
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"Whats the feckin hangup with "cheating". We all have only one life. Consider situation where hubby and wife are very happy together but hubby has zero interest in sex and wouldnt condone wife seeking it elsewhere. If all else is good in relationship why can't she seek it discretely elsewhere? Its only sex for gods sake!" because she would be hurting and destroying the person she is meant to love, consider that. | |||
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"Whats the feckin hangup with "cheating". We all have only one life. Consider situation where hubby and wife are very happy together but hubby has zero interest in sex and wouldnt condone wife seeking it elsewhere. If all else is good in relationship why can't she seek it discretely elsewhere? Its only sex for gods sake!" The fact is some may think 'it's only sex for gods sake!' But their spouses would think very, very differently. And most cheats get found out eventually. | |||
"Tangential to the theme of another thread on here: Do you consider swinging when married adulterous? What if it is. How can that be a problem if at all? I find this question one that I love to discuss with others in the lifestyle. "Adultery suggests lies. My partner knows about my antics and sometimes joins in. | |||
"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. If your partner does not know or is not okay with it...it's cheating...plain and simple. The vow of monogamy in the marriage ceremony does not have a rider which says "unless otherwise agreed between the parties". Sex with others in marriage is adultery, whilst with the spouse's agreement, it may not necessarily be "cheating". I still struggle to understand why sex is so damned important to a relationship. Monogamy is after all only learnt behaviour from religious and social indoctrination. If sexual faithfulness to me was a universal and accurate measure of love and affection then I could not have loved, or be loved, by my mother, sister, children, extended family, male friends, etc etc. " This is so true | |||
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"So. You all think that if he has zero interest in sex she should do what? Leave? An otherwise perfectly happy relationship? Thats daft." Certainly don't think anyone should stay and destroy the other person when the shit hits the fan. Better to leave yes. Ever had to counsel someone who's suicidal because their spouse has cheated? Or children whose parent betrayed their other parent? | |||
"I do wonder what would happen if one filed for divorce on the grounds that your spouse had a threesome with you...
There is no legal issue here. It would constitute sufficient legal ground for a divorce.
as a practising family solicitor, I can put you right there, its not quite as clean cut as that, if for instance there was sufficient evidence to support that both husband and wife entered into the threesome with each others full consent and blessing and neither was been coerced/blackmailed etc then it would not be grounds for divorce, so the law doesnt necessarily view swinging as adultery, but equally it can be, it isnt clear cut in the eyes of the law."I may be out of date. I thought adultery was purely the act. Is that not the case? It is 15 years since I gave advice ... And it is not a scenario I ever tackled. | |||
" Loyalty, respect and jealousy are intrinsic. So i ask you, do you get jealous when your man has a shit in another couple's toilet? No? The reason is, society and religion has brought you up to not see it as wrong. If sex were treated the same way then matters of loyalty, respect and jealousy would not be an issue either. My wife knows I am on here and that I have a friend on a couple profile. So I will ignore your inaccurate and judgemental second paragraph. Quite happy to say that society has indeed taught me that going for 'a shit' and sexual intimacy are not the same thing.
If that's truly the case then I apologise. Your posts earlier this year and your reference to the necessity of deceit seemed to suggest otherwise!
With you on how you see it.
Strange comparison taking a shit and sexual intimacy don't you think?"It may seem a strange comparison but both are pleasurable human physical activities. If we stop associating sex directly with love, respect, caring, etc. We may be able, for just one minute, to clear our minds of indoctrination and start to consider if sexual monogamy is as important to a relationship as, for example, avoiding physical and mental abuse, constant humiliation of the spouse, stealing money from the family, alcoholism and drug adiction, gambling, being constantly argumentative, lack of support, etc. All those non-sexual faults people will advise you to try and deal with but stray sexually and BANG, it is the end!!!! I now expect the response that infidelity hurts the injured partner from those who cannnot contemplate the demotion of sex; which is strange as it is supposed to be what swingers do. Have the real swingers overcome this hurdle and revel in the freedom it provides for their partners and them to persue their hedonistic pleasures? Closing remark: a wise man once wrote "Personal abuse is a sure sign of a weak case" | |||
"Tangential to the theme of another thread on here: Do you consider swinging when married adulterous? What if it is. How can that be a problem if at all? I find this question one that I love to discuss with others in the lifestyle. "Yes it's adultery even if u have permission or not. Swinging is just a label an excuse to fuck other pple as ur bored of fucking eachother. | |||
"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. If your partner does not know or is not okay with it...it's cheating...plain and simple." That's the problem with a very large percentage of the "single" men on here. Thankfully easy to spot mist of the time! | |||
"If you wouldn't tell your partner because they wouldn't let you do it - it's adultery. I never have understood why people who want to date multiple people don't just have poly relationships rather than shoehorning themselves into monogamous relationships and then having an affair. I'm personally not interested in seeing people who are cheating on their partners. I reason that if they treat their spouse so badly, by cheating on them, the one person in this world that they are *supposed* to be open and honest with - why would they treat me any better?" Perhaps circumstances change, people change, partners change. I know my wife isnt the same woman I married. I know we cant seperate as we just could not afford to, and it would upset the children too much. I am trapped, and will remain so for at least another 5 years. So until I can leave, I grin and bear it. I may never leave, if our sex life ever restarted, I wouldnt be on here. Its not just sex I require, its the closeness sex brings. Its not nice living without it. We dont argue, we just dont have sex. Because she doesnt want it, and hasnt wanted it for nearly 15 years. I know, technically its cheating, but is it fair for me to have no sex life because my wife doesnt want one, and doesnt want to resolve the issue? I cannot understand how people can see relationship issues in such binary terms, if they have full knowledge of all the details. They never do though. They just assume. | |||
"Whats the feckin hangup with "cheating". We all have only one life. Consider situation where hubby and wife are very happy together but hubby has zero interest in sex and wouldnt condone wife seeking it elsewhere. If all else is good in relationship why can't she seek it discretely elsewhere? Its only sex for gods sake! The fact is some may think 'it's only sex for gods sake!' But their spouses would think very, very differently. And most cheats get found out eventually. " Most cheats get found out? And how do you qualify that statement? All cheats go about it in secret. Ergo, you never know how many are doing it, you only know how many failed. | |||
"Tangential to the theme of another thread on here: Do you consider swinging when married adulterous? What if it is. How can that be a problem if at all? I find this question one that I love to discuss with others in the lifestyle. "Adultery is defined as voluntary sex with another other than your spouse so technically it is adultery. However I believe in todays society nothing or no one should be defined by one particular phrase. Cheating is having voluntary sex with another WITHOUT your spouses consent. Some words are no longer appropriate in certain situations | |||
"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. If your partner does not know or is not okay with it...it's cheating...plain and simple.
Had this debate yesterday with a couple who are both married to others and swing with their long term partners, yet have set up a couples profile to play behind their partners backs.
In my book it's not the act but the deceit that makes it unacceptable. If you have to hide your actions from your partner or you know they wouldn't approve, it's wrong.
Absolutely spot on!
It is the deceit and dishonesty that makes it wrong.
You hear varying reasons on sites like this and if you think your reasons are justified then at least be honest to your partner, but put simply you are perfectly right." | |||
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"If you wouldn't tell your partner because they wouldn't let you do it - it's adultery. I never have understood why people who want to date multiple people don't just have poly relationships rather than shoehorning themselves into monogamous relationships and then having an affair. I'm personally not interested in seeing people who are cheating on their partners. I reason that if they treat their spouse so badly, by cheating on them, the one person in this world that they are *supposed* to be open and honest with - why would they treat me any better? Perhaps circumstances change, people change, partners change. I know my wife isnt the same woman I married. I know we cant seperate as we just could not afford to, and it would upset the children too much. I am trapped, and will remain so for at least another 5 years. So until I can leave, I grin and bear it. I may never leave, if our sex life ever restarted, I wouldnt be on here. Its not just sex I require, its the closeness sex brings. Its not nice living without it. We dont argue, we just dont have sex. Because she doesnt want it, and hasnt wanted it for nearly 15 years. I know, technically its cheating, but is it fair for me to have no sex life because my wife doesnt want one, and doesnt want to resolve the issue? I cannot understand how people can see relationship issues in such binary terms, if they have full knowledge of all the details. They never do though. They just assume." 
Why not be honest with her?
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"Whats the feckin hangup with "cheating". We all have only one life. Consider situation where hubby and wife are very happy together but hubby has zero interest in sex and wouldnt condone wife seeking it elsewhere. If all else is good in relationship why can't she seek it discretely elsewhere? Its only sex for gods sake! because she would be hurting and destroying the person she is meant to love, consider that." She only "hurts and destroys" because we are conditioned to believe sex is special. If it really is special to a relationship then why, when one partner in the relationship withdraws it, do we vilify the one who wants sex but has it denied? | |||
"If you wouldn't tell your partner because they wouldn't let you do it - it's adultery. I never have understood why people who want to date multiple people don't just have poly relationships rather than shoehorning themselves into monogamous relationships and then having an affair. I'm personally not interested in seeing people who are cheating on their partners. I reason that if they treat their spouse so badly, by cheating on them, the one person in this world that they are *supposed* to be open and honest with - why would they treat me any better? Perhaps circumstances change, people change, partners change. I know my wife isnt the same woman I married. I know we cant seperate as we just could not afford to, and it would upset the children too much. I am trapped, and will remain so for at least another 5 years. So until I can leave, I grin and bear it. I may never leave, if our sex life ever restarted, I wouldnt be on here. Its not just sex I require, its the closeness sex brings. Its not nice living without it. We dont argue, we just dont have sex. Because she doesnt want it, and hasnt wanted it for nearly 15 years. I know, technically its cheating, but is it fair for me to have no sex life because my wife doesnt want one, and doesnt want to resolve the issue? I cannot understand how people can see relationship issues in such binary terms, if they have full knowledge of all the details. They never do though. They just assume.
Why not be honest with her?
"Have any of those truly believing that last sentence ever sat down and told their partner that they are seeking sex elsewhere? Do they really believe that this form of "honesty" makes the other half feel better? I have done this and I assure you it hurts like hell and keeps on hurting. It is far easier on them to say you are off to see a mate who is unwell than to see another woman or man because they cannot meet your physical needs. It would pay those who are quick to condem to walk a mile in the shoes of these "cheaters" before expressing a generalised condemnation. | |||
"I do wonder what would happen if one filed for divorce on the grounds that your spouse had a threesome with you...
There is no legal issue here. It would constitute sufficient legal ground for a divorce.
as a practising family solicitor, I can put you right there, its not quite as clean cut as that, if for instance there was sufficient evidence to support that both husband and wife entered into the threesome with each others full consent and blessing and neither was been coerced/blackmailed etc then it would not be grounds for divorce, so the law doesnt necessarily view swinging as adultery, but equally it can be, it isnt clear cut in the eyes of the law.
I may be out of date. I thought adultery was purely the act. Is that not the case? It is 15 years since I gave advice ... And it is not a scenario I ever tackled."thats why I said its not as clear cut as you 1st mentioned, there are many things to consider if this was brought in a divorce case, but if both parties had entered into a threesome with total agreement and blessing from eachother, then in the eyes of the law it would not be grounds for divorce. | |||
"Whats the feckin hangup with "cheating". We all have only one life. Consider situation where hubby and wife are very happy together but hubby has zero interest in sex and wouldnt condone wife seeking it elsewhere. If all else is good in relationship why can't she seek it discretely elsewhere? Its only sex for gods sake! because she would be hurting and destroying the person she is meant to love, consider that. She only "hurts and destroys" because we are conditioned to believe sex is special. If it really is special to a relationship then why, when one partner in the relationship withdraws it, do we vilify the one who wants sex but has it denied? " Are these people being vilified for wanting sex, or simply for not being honest? We hear people saying about keeping the the truth from their partners for fear of hurting them, so being dishonest with them hurts less? Do you not think that when things like cheating come out, the partner usually feels destroyed by the fact that they were deceived? Everyone should have a choice. The cheating partner chooses to go elsewhere for sex, shouldn't the remaining partner have the choice whether he/she accepts that or not? | |||
"Whats the feckin hangup with "cheating". We all have only one life. Consider situation where hubby and wife are very happy together but hubby has zero interest in sex and wouldnt condone wife seeking it elsewhere. If all else is good in relationship why can't she seek it discretely elsewhere? Its only sex for gods sake! because she would be hurting and destroying the person she is meant to love, consider that. She only "hurts and destroys" because we are conditioned to believe sex is special. If it really is special to a relationship then why, when one partner in the relationship withdraws it, do we vilify the one who wants sex but has it denied? " we dont, we expect people to do the right thing and sort out the issue , 1 way or the other before turning to lies, and hurting/destroying people, it doesnt matter which way you butter it up theres always an answer. | |||
"If it really is special to a relationship then why, when one partner in the relationship withdraws it, do we vilify the one who wants sex but has it denied? we dont, we expect people to do the right thing and sort out the issue , 1 way or the other before turning to lies, and hurting/destroying people, it doesnt matter which way you butter it up theres always an answer." Agreed. Of course it will be hard and hurtful, but lies are not the answer. | |||
"Whats the feckin hangup with "cheating". We all have only one life. Consider situation where hubby and wife are very happy together but hubby has zero interest in sex and wouldnt condone wife seeking it elsewhere. If all else is good in relationship why can't she seek it discretely elsewhere? Its only sex for gods sake! because she would be hurting and destroying the person she is meant to love, consider that. She only "hurts and destroys" because we are conditioned to believe sex is special. If it really is special to a relationship then why, when one partner in the relationship withdraws it, do we vilify the one who wants sex but has it denied? we dont, we expect people to do the right thing and sort out the issue , 1 way or the other before turning to lies, and hurting/destroying people, it doesnt matter which way you butter it up theres always an answer." May I ask, have you ever been married to someone who you love deeply but who withdrew sex? Have you ever viewed sex simply as a very pleasant physical activity and no where near as important as love, affection, caring, common interest, shared aims, parenting, family unity, etc? People are conditioned to believe sex is an infallible barometer of love. It is not. It is a natural and pleasant physical activity that the vast majority of human beings are driven to perform. If a relationship is otherwise good then sexual infidelity should not be considered the nuclear option. | |||
" May I ask, have you ever been married to someone who you love deeply but who withdrew sex? Have you ever viewed sex simply as a very pleasant physical activity and no where near as important as love, affection, caring, common interest, shared aims, parenting, family unity, etc? People are conditioned to believe sex is an infallible barometer of love. It is not. It is a natural and pleasant physical activity that the vast majority of human beings are driven to perform. If a relationship is otherwise good then sexual infidelity should not be considered the nuclear option. " Agree totally that sexual infidelity is not the end of the world. But if you love them dearly, being dishonest to them shouldn't even be considered, should it? All the other things named as very important. Shouldn't honesty and trust be very high in that list? | |||
" May I ask, have you ever been married to someone who you love deeply but who withdrew sex? Have you ever viewed sex simply as a very pleasant physical activity and no where near as important as love, affection, caring, common interest, shared aims, parenting, family unity, etc? People are conditioned to believe sex is an infallible barometer of love. It is not. It is a natural and pleasant physical activity that the vast majority of human beings are driven to perform. If a relationship is otherwise good then sexual infidelity should not be considered the nuclear option. Agree totally that sexual infidelity is not the end of the world. But if you love them dearly, being dishonest to them shouldn't even be considered, should it? All the other things named as very important. Shouldn't honesty and trust be very high in that list?" Unfortunately honesty seems to be a dying trait in today's society. Not on just this subject throughout society | |||
"Whats the feckin hangup with "cheating". We all have only one life. Consider situation where hubby and wife are very happy together but hubby has zero interest in sex and wouldnt condone wife seeking it elsewhere. If all else is good in relationship why can't she seek it discretely elsewhere? Its only sex for gods sake! because she would be hurting and destroying the person she is meant to love, consider that. She only "hurts and destroys" because we are conditioned to believe sex is special. If it really is special to a relationship then why, when one partner in the relationship withdraws it, do we vilify the one who wants sex but has it denied? we dont, we expect people to do the right thing and sort out the issue , 1 way or the other before turning to lies, and hurting/destroying people, it doesnt matter which way you butter it up theres always an answer. May I ask, have you ever been married to someone who you love deeply but who withdrew sex? Have you ever viewed sex simply as a very pleasant physical activity and no where near as important as love, affection, caring, common interest, shared aims, parenting, family unity, etc? People are conditioned to believe sex is an infallible barometer of love. It is not. It is a natural and pleasant physical activity that the vast majority of human beings are driven to perform. If a relationship is otherwise good then sexual infidelity should not be considered the nuclear option. " yes I have, I seen both sides, I have also seen people totally destroyed by cheating, aswell as people getting away with it for years. when you enter into a relationship/marriage, from that point on that person is your soulmate, it is the person you can trust more than anyother and they can trust you, you come across problems you work through them, you sort them out, you come to a solution "together", you do not lie, go off doing something that knowingly will absolutely destroy that person you love so dearly if they find out, there is always a solution, it may not be a totally pleasant one, but anything has got to be better than seeing the one you claim to love absolutely gutted, destroyed and hurt because you couldnt sit down and talk things through, and decided having sex with other people without there knowledge was the best option to take. | |||
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" May I ask, have you ever been married to someone who you love deeply but who withdrew sex? Have you ever viewed sex simply as a very pleasant physical activity and no where near as important as love, affection, caring, common interest, shared aims, parenting, family unity, etc? People are conditioned to believe sex is an infallible barometer of love. It is not. It is a natural and pleasant physical activity that the vast majority of human beings are driven to perform. If a relationship is otherwise good then sexual infidelity should not be considered the nuclear option. Agree totally that sexual infidelity is not the end of the world. But if you love them dearly, being dishonest to them shouldn't even be considered, should it? All the other things named as very important. Shouldn't honesty and trust be very high in that list? Unfortunately honesty seems to be a dying trait in today's society. Not on just this subject throughout society " Really!..would have thought people are far more honest about their sexuality, relationships, feelings, than previous generations. | |||
" May I ask, have you ever been married to someone who you love deeply but who withdrew sex? Have you ever viewed sex simply as a very pleasant physical activity and no where near as important as love, affection, caring, common interest, shared aims, parenting, family unity, etc? People are conditioned to believe sex is an infallible barometer of love. It is not. It is a natural and pleasant physical activity that the vast majority of human beings are driven to perform. If a relationship is otherwise good then sexual infidelity should not be considered the nuclear option. Agree totally that sexual infidelity is not the end of the world. But if you love them dearly, being dishonest to them shouldn't even be considered, should it? All the other things named as very important. Shouldn't honesty and trust be very high in that list? Unfortunately honesty seems to be a dying trait in today's society. Not on just this subject throughout society Really!..would have thought people are far more honest about their sexuality, relationships, feelings, than previous generations. " Maybe out there in the public domain but people still harbour alot of secrets internally and are not honest enough to talk about them. I was in a marriage in which the communication was only one way, that standard response i would get is dunno, dont feel like talking about it, its up to you. I was not happy in the marriage but i wasnt honest enough about it, in the end it took for me to catch her out messing around with some guy for me to admit the marriage was over. | |||
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"Makat. Brilliant posts which I totally agree with but yours are so succinctly phrased. I fear that those who disagree are fixed and conditioned in their own views are are not for changing. The Lady says no no no springs to mind." oh dear. | |||
"The dictionary seems to define adultery as sex with someone other than your spouse. Based on this definition, with or without consent, it's still adultery. Never realised that cheating and adultery were not necessarily the same thing... interesting "I'll be having words with that adulteress woman of mine tonight | |||
"I do wonder what would happen if one filed for divorce on the grounds that your spouse had a threesome with you...
There is no legal issue here. It would constitute sufficient legal ground for a divorce.
as a practising family solicitor, I can put you right there, its not quite as clean cut as that, if for instance there was sufficient evidence to support that both husband and wife entered into the threesome with each others full consent and blessing and neither was been coerced/blackmailed etc then it would not be grounds for divorce, so the law doesnt necessarily view swinging as adultery, but equally it can be, it isnt clear cut in the eyes of the law.
I may be out of date. I thought adultery was purely the act. Is that not the case? It is 15 years since I gave advice ... And it is not a scenario I ever tackled.
thats why I said its not as clear cut as you 1st mentioned, there are many things to consider if this was brought in a divorce case, but if both parties had entered into a threesome with total agreement and blessing from eachother, then in the eyes of the law it would not be grounds for divorce."I cannot find any case law to support this. The term adultery is given its ordinary meaning which is voluntary sex with someone to whom you are not married. Provided that the marriage has irretrievably broken down and the petitioner finds it intolerable to live with the other party (and not necessarily due to the adultery), surely this scenario meets the grounds for divorce? | |||
"Tangential to the theme of another thread on here: Do you consider swinging when married adulterous? What if it is. How can that be a problem if at all? I find this question one that I love to discuss with others in the lifestyle. "I think if you are in any type of committed relationship whether it be marriage or a partner if you are swinging behind their back without their knowledge then it's cheating xx | |||
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"As I said and predicted as much.Totally fixed in their ways no matter what is said and just cannot resist to make it personal and insulting. But it was to be expected. Best to ignore cos they're not for turning." I was a victim of adultery, its easy to say its cheating etc dishonest blah blah blah. It is not and never will be as black and white as that. | |||
"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. If your partner does not know or is not okay with it...it's cheating...plain and simple." | |||
"As I said and predicted as much.Totally fixed in their ways no matter what is said and just cannot resist to make it personal and insulting. But it was to be expected. Best to ignore cos they're not for turning." I'm sorry but if you're suggesting that a view of sex which is so impersonal that the other person needn't even be there is something I should be open minded about... I would have to disagree. Some swingers take the whole "it's just sex" attitude to extraordinary lengths, stripping all of the romance and meaning out of the act and turning it into something of a sporting event. Makat certainly seems to herald from an extreme wing of this branch of thinking, so extreme he can't even see the difference between using someone elses body for sex or using a toilet. I apologise if you find me closed minded but I find that analogy deeply repulsive. It brings to mind ideas of shitting or pissing into someone elses body, which are vile. Sex with others should, at all times, be a form of love making, imo, being respectful of them and honoring and seducing them. There are, however, different types of love, and love making with your life partner will always be different from love making with a stranger. If your remark was aimed at my opinion on cheating, I stand by what I said. There is absolutely no need to bring pain and ruin to your partner and your relationship. You can have your cake and eat it... thanks to swinging. All it takes is some careful connecting with your partner, some long discussions and empathy for their point of view and, over time, you should be able to bring them into a swinging lifestyle and share a more broad sexual exploration with others without lying to or hurting your partner. I think most people reading this will appreciate how much more ethical and loving this way is compared to the one which you and Makat suggest
I'm all for turning when the contrary argument is convincing and compassionate. When it's neither... I think I'm not really the one who needs to be doing the turning here | |||
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" If your remark was aimed at my opinion on cheating, I stand by what I said. There is absolutely no need to bring pain and ruin to your partner and your relationship. You can have your cake and eat it... thanks to swinging. All it takes is some careful connecting with your partner, some long discussions and empathy for their point of view and, over time, you should be able to bring them into a swinging lifestyle and share a more broad sexual exploration with others without lying to or hurting your partner. I think most people reading this will appreciate how much more ethical and loving this way is compared to the one which you and Makat suggest "Or polyamory - which I'd like to point out is often considered to be 'swinging with feelings'. It's ethical, open and caring, and treats people as more than sex object. | |||
"I do wonder what would happen if one filed for divorce on the grounds that your spouse had a threesome with you...
There is no legal issue here. It would constitute sufficient legal ground for a divorce.
as a practising family solicitor, I can put you right there, its not quite as clean cut as that, if for instance there was sufficient evidence to support that both husband and wife entered into the threesome with each others full consent and blessing and neither was been coerced/blackmailed etc then it would not be grounds for divorce, so the law doesnt necessarily view swinging as adultery, but equally it can be, it isnt clear cut in the eyes of the law.
I may be out of date. I thought adultery was purely the act. Is that not the case? It is 15 years since I gave advice ... And it is not a scenario I ever tackled.
thats why I said its not as clear cut as you 1st mentioned, there are many things to consider if this was brought in a divorce case, but if both parties had entered into a threesome with total agreement and blessing from eachother, then in the eyes of the law it would not be grounds for divorce.
I cannot find any case law to support this. The term adultery is given its ordinary meaning which is voluntary sex with someone to whom you are not married. Provided that the marriage has irretrievably broken down and the petitioner finds it intolerable to live with the other party (and not necessarily due to the adultery), surely this scenario meets the grounds for divorce?"you are going of track from what is been said, yes you are right on the definition of adultery, but entering into a threesome willingly and with the the total understanding of everyone involved cannot be used in a divorce case, I say this from an experienced and educated view on this subject, im not guessing lol, it is fact. | |||
I neither cheat, nor am I an adulterer...I have some sexual partners in conj_nction with my chosen life partner who are there for the longer term and some who are a passing fuck on the journey of exploration we're on...works for me...and, I imagine them too as we seem to have had no complaints so far... | |||
" If your remark was aimed at my opinion on cheating, I stand by what I said. There is absolutely no need to bring pain and ruin to your partner and your relationship. You can have your cake and eat it... thanks to swinging. All it takes is some careful connecting with your partner, some long discussions and empathy for their point of view and, over time, you should be able to bring them into a swinging lifestyle and share a more broad sexual exploration with others without lying to or hurting your partner. I think most people reading this will appreciate how much more ethical and loving this way is compared to the one which you and Makat suggest
Or polyamory - which I'd like to point out is often considered to be 'swinging with feelings'.
It's ethical, open and caring, and treats people as more than sex object."When it works...I've seen some poly relationships implode with more fall out than Hiroshima, because people who've entered into them fall into more traditional roles and habits and can't cope with the emotional shift necessary to sustain them... | |||
"Tangential to the theme of another thread on here: Do you consider swinging when married adulterous? What if it is. How can that be a problem if at all? I find this question one that I love to discuss with others in the lifestyle. "In the strict sense of the word yes but who cares if you have a hangup over what you call things then maybe swinging and other things aren't for you. | |||
"If your partner knows about it and is okay with it no...not adultery. " I guess maybe in law it is.... but within your own moral code then no. | |||
"Whats the feckin hangup with "cheating". We all have only one life. Consider situation where hubby and wife are very happy together but hubby has zero interest in sex and wouldnt condone wife seeking it elsewhere. If all else is good in relationship why can't she seek it discretely elsewhere? Its only sex for gods sake! because she would be hurting and destroying the person she is meant to love, consider that. She only "hurts and destroys" because we are conditioned to believe sex is special. If it really is special to a relationship then why, when one partner in the relationship withdraws it, do we vilify the one who wants sex but has it denied? we dont, we expect people to do the right thing and sort out the issue , 1 way or the other before turning to lies, and hurting/destroying people, it doesnt matter which way you butter it up theres always an answer." | |||
"I do wonder what would happen if one filed for divorce on the grounds that your spouse had a threesome with you...
There is no legal issue here. It would constitute sufficient legal ground for a divorce.
as a practising family solicitor, I can put you right there, its not quite as clean cut as that, if for instance there was sufficient evidence to support that both husband and wife entered into the threesome with each others full consent and blessing and neither was been coerced/blackmailed etc then it would not be grounds for divorce, so the law doesnt necessarily view swinging as adultery, but equally it can be, it isnt clear cut in the eyes of the law.
I may be out of date. I thought adultery was purely the act. Is that not the case? It is 15 years since I gave advice ... And it is not a scenario I ever tackled.
thats why I said its not as clear cut as you 1st mentioned, there are many things to consider if this was brought in a divorce case, but if both parties had entered into a threesome with total agreement and blessing from eachother, then in the eyes of the law it would not be grounds for divorce.
I cannot find any case law to support this. The term adultery is given its ordinary meaning which is voluntary sex with someone to whom you are not married. Provided that the marriage has irretrievably broken down and the petitioner finds it intolerable to live with the other party (and not necessarily due to the adultery), surely this scenario meets the grounds for divorce?
you are going of track from what is been said, yes you are right on the definition of adultery, but entering into a threesome willingly and with the the total understanding of everyone involved cannot be used in a divorce case, I say this from an experienced and educated view on this subject, im not guessing lol, it is fact."I am just interested in the legal side, sad though that may be. The scenario does seem to fit the legal definition. I am interested in why it would not fit the criteria. | |||
Sort of relating to above, I understood that if one party committed adultery and the other party found out, that adultery as a reason for divorce had to be petitioned for within 6 months - after that period it was considered condoned by the cheated-on partner (albeit after the fact) ? | |||
"I do wonder what would happen if one filed for divorce on the grounds that your spouse had a threesome with you...
There is no legal issue here. It would constitute sufficient legal ground for a divorce.
as a practising family solicitor, I can put you right there, its not quite as clean cut as that, if for instance there was sufficient evidence to support that both husband and wife entered into the threesome with each others full consent and blessing and neither was been coerced/blackmailed etc then it would not be grounds for divorce, so the law doesnt necessarily view swinging as adultery, but equally it can be, it isnt clear cut in the eyes of the law.
I may be out of date. I thought adultery was purely the act. Is that not the case? It is 15 years since I gave advice ... And it is not a scenario I ever tackled.
thats why I said its not as clear cut as you 1st mentioned, there are many things to consider if this was brought in a divorce case, but if both parties had entered into a threesome with total agreement and blessing from eachother, then in the eyes of the law it would not be grounds for divorce.
I cannot find any case law to support this. The term adultery is given its ordinary meaning which is voluntary sex with someone to whom you are not married. Provided that the marriage has irretrievably broken down and the petitioner finds it intolerable to live with the other party (and not necessarily due to the adultery), surely this scenario meets the grounds for divorce?
you are going of track from what is been said, yes you are right on the definition of adultery, but entering into a threesome willingly and with the the total understanding of everyone involved cannot be used in a divorce case, I say this from an experienced and educated view on this subject, im not guessing lol, it is fact.
I am just interested in the legal side, sad though that may be. The scenario does seem to fit the legal definition. I am interested in why it would not fit the criteria."The reason been that in this situation, it cannot be used against either party of the divorce case, therefore has no bearing on the case, and is a null argument. | |||
"How any married couple could swap partners well I just don't know if my granny were alive today she would roll over in her grave ,come to think of it she was cremated "As my gran used to say: One minute your hot and the next you're in an urn! | |||
" I'm all for turning when the contrary argument is convincing and compassionate. When it's neither... I think I'm not really the one who needs to be doing the turning here "Likewise, my mind is always open. But I'll never see the merit in an argument where the wellbeing and feelings of another human being are so comprehensively disregarded in favour of the selfish wants of another. Indeed as you suggest, that seems to me to be one of the hallmarks of a psychopath. | |||
"I do wonder what would happen if one filed for divorce on the grounds that your spouse had a threesome with you...
There is no legal issue here. It would constitute sufficient legal ground for a divorce.
as a practising family solicitor, I can put you right there, its not quite as clean cut as that, if for instance there was sufficient evidence to support that both husband and wife entered into the threesome with each others full consent and blessing and neither was been coerced/blackmailed etc then it would not be grounds for divorce, so the law doesnt necessarily view swinging as adultery, but equally it can be, it isnt clear cut in the eyes of the law.
I may be out of date. I thought adultery was purely the act. Is that not the case? It is 15 years since I gave advice ... And it is not a scenario I ever tackled.
thats why I said its not as clear cut as you 1st mentioned, there are many things to consider if this was brought in a divorce case, but if both parties had entered into a threesome with total agreement and blessing from eachother, then in the eyes of the law it would not be grounds for divorce.
I cannot find any case law to support this. The term adultery is given its ordinary meaning which is voluntary sex with someone to whom you are not married. Provided that the marriage has irretrievably broken down and the petitioner finds it intolerable to live with the other party (and not necessarily due to the adultery), surely this scenario meets the grounds for divorce?
you are going of track from what is been said, yes you are right on the definition of adultery, but entering into a threesome willingly and with the the total understanding of everyone involved cannot be used in a divorce case, I say this from an experienced and educated view on this subject, im not guessing lol, it is fact.
I am just interested in the legal side, sad though that may be. The scenario does seem to fit the legal definition. I am interested in why it would not fit the criteria.
The reason been that in this situation, it cannot be used against either party of the divorce case, therefore has no bearing on the case, and is a null argument."That is not to my mind a reasoned legal argument. But, as I said, it has been a while. But I am not convinced. Adultery is adultery. The law does not take into account morals or blame when it comes to interpretation (good old Denning aside). If you have case law to support your interpretation, it would be of interest. Honest, it is not a jibe, I am interested. | |||
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"Absolutely fascinating reading all of these opinions on what constitutes adultery and what is acceptable / unacceptable in the eyes of different people. I must add the theological side to this if I may: In terms of the 3 major / main religions adultery is, of course, a nono as one of the Ten Commandments. i.e. Though shalt not commit it! When we look at the basis for standard marriage vows, the vows clearly state that one shall 'forsake all others...'. This could be interpreted as forsaking all other sexual partners and probably does. So, for non-atheists I guess this presents another problem in that swinging is a clear transgression against this commandment. Personally (Cockman) I am not an atheist and this presents me with a dilemma. However, due to my own personal circumstances, I am (just about to be) no longer married and so one could say that the commandment no longer applies to me. But you know, even if I do re-marry, I wouldn't stop engaging in the swinging lifestyle as since partaking Throbbin and I have met the most wonderful, liberated people that we could have wished to meet. Sadly, I do feel that existing laws pertaining to marriage probably do need to be rethought; and therefore the laws pertaining specifically to adultery probably also need to be re-thought as well. But hey, there I am talking from a swinger's point of view. Ask someone who cannot conceive of the concept of sharing your partner with others the same thing and they would probably call me a reprobate and possibly worse. It seems that with the current definition of adultery, swinging, consential or not, is indeed adulterous (when married) but of course, the biggie is the terms under which the act happens. If it is between adults that are all consenting then for me, this is not a moral issue or problem." Personally, I feel our divorce laws are somewhat antiquated. Politicians tend to talk about cohesion and society. But our laws are a trade off between church and state. When a relationship is over, it is over, and (unless 2 years separation with consent or 5 years separation is used as a ground) it really does not help having to point to "fault." | |||
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"If you wouldn't tell your partner because they wouldn't let you do it - it's adultery. I never have understood why people who want to date multiple people don't just have poly relationships rather than shoehorning themselves into monogamous relationships and then having an affair. I'm personally not interested in seeing people who are cheating on their partners. I reason that if they treat their spouse so badly, by cheating on them, the one person in this world that they are *supposed* to be open and honest with - why would they treat me any better? Perhaps circumstances change, people change, partners change. I know my wife isnt the same woman I married. I know we cant seperate as we just could not afford to, and it would upset the children too much. I am trapped, and will remain so for at least another 5 years. So until I can leave, I grin and bear it. I may never leave, if our sex life ever restarted, I wouldnt be on here. Its not just sex I require, its the closeness sex brings. Its not nice living without it. We dont argue, we just dont have sex. Because she doesnt want it, and hasnt wanted it for nearly 15 years. I know, technically its cheating, but is it fair for me to have no sex life because my wife doesnt want one, and doesnt want to resolve the issue? I cannot understand how people can see relationship issues in such binary terms, if they have full knowledge of all the details. They never do though. They just assume." Wow How close to my own heart was this post! Closer than I can even begin to describe. I too was in a marriage with two wonderful children, but with a wife who just was not interested in me (for the majority of the time) sexually and indeed also intimately. By that I mean not wishing to kiss, touch, or generally be close to. For years I also convinced myself that I could not leave...and I didn't leave. My children needed me and I needed them. But sadly, I did succumb to affairs and in retrospect those affairs were all about trying to feel love and to be wanted. In short (very short) it all ended years later in tears when I finally decided that I could no longer live in such a situation and I left. When I look back I cannot believe I did leave and the pain has been, again, more than I can describe. But the final result is that I came to meet and be with my partner who loves me without doubt and whom I can love without fear of it being taken away or being rejected. We just happened to be on the same page with the way we fell into the swinging lifestyle. But going back to your post, I feel for you and your situation and if I can be of any help just for a chat or whatever, feel free to private message. | |||
" Perhaps circumstances change, people change, partners change. I know my wife isnt the same woman I married. I know we cant seperate as we just could not afford to, and it would upset the children too much. I am trapped, and will remain so for at least another 5 years. So until I can leave, I grin and bear it. I may never leave, if our sex life ever restarted, I wouldnt be on here. Its not just sex I require, its the closeness sex brings. Its not nice living without it. We dont argue, we just dont have sex. Because she doesnt want it, and hasnt wanted it for nearly 15 years. I know, technically its cheating, but is it fair for me to have no sex life because my wife doesnt want one, and doesnt want to resolve the issue? I cannot understand how people can see relationship issues in such binary terms, if they have full knowledge of all the details. They never do though. They just assume." Yes, I understand all those things you say. I was in a relationship with someone who I never argued with, but we discovered had an incredibly low sex drive which eventually turned into no sex. I'd moved across the country to be with him, so I had no good job and no means of surviving on my own. I had no savings because of quitting my job, I had nothing. But instead of staying with him just because it was inconvenient to move out, I eventually decided that the way forward was polyamory and multiple partners and left. I was made homeless. I had no job. I lived in a damp house with no heating for nine months which caused nerve damage in my feet. Because I didn't believe it was fair to have sex behind his back just because we were incompatible. From the other side, I was a teenager who had parents that stayed together for quite a long while because of the inconvenience factor and because they didn't want to destabilise me life. Unfortunately I knew everything that was going on because kids aren't stupid. It wrecked me and I ended up failing all my exams because I was so unsettled by them being unhappy all the time. People just disregard my experiences as a one off, as unusual. But the fact is that several of my school friends went through similar experiences as kids and teenagers. We all knew that our parents were unhappy and it made us unhappy. And like I said - I made myself homeless and permanently damaged my feet. Just because I didn't think it was right to cheat on someone I cared for. So I guess those sad stories just don't wash with me. | |||
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"I do wonder what would happen if one filed for divorce on the grounds that your spouse had a threesome with you...
There is no legal issue here. It would constitute sufficient legal ground for a divorce.
as a practising family solicitor, I can put you right there, its not quite as clean cut as that, if for instance there was sufficient evidence to support that both husband and wife entered into the threesome with each others full consent and blessing and neither was been coerced/blackmailed etc then it would not be grounds for divorce, so the law doesnt necessarily view swinging as adultery, but equally it can be, it isnt clear cut in the eyes of the law.
I may be out of date. I thought adultery was purely the act. Is that not the case? It is 15 years since I gave advice ... And it is not a scenario I ever tackled.
thats why I said its not as clear cut as you 1st mentioned, there are many things to consider if this was brought in a divorce case, but if both parties had entered into a threesome with total agreement and blessing from eachother, then in the eyes of the law it would not be grounds for divorce.
I cannot find any case law to support this. The term adultery is given its ordinary meaning which is voluntary sex with someone to whom you are not married. Provided that the marriage has irretrievably broken down and the petitioner finds it intolerable to live with the other party (and not necessarily due to the adultery), surely this scenario meets the grounds for divorce?
you are going of track from what is been said, yes you are right on the definition of adultery, but entering into a threesome willingly and with the the total understanding of everyone involved cannot be used in a divorce case, I say this from an experienced and educated view on this subject, im not guessing lol, it is fact.
I am just interested in the legal side, sad though that may be. The scenario does seem to fit the legal definition. I am interested in why it would not fit the criteria.
The reason been that in this situation, it cannot be used against either party of the divorce case, therefore has no bearing on the case, and is a null argument.
That is not to my mind a reasoned legal argument. But, as I said, it has been a while. But I am not convinced. Adultery is adultery. The law does not take into account morals or blame when it comes to interpretation (good old Denning aside). If you have case law to support your interpretation, it would be of interest. Honest, it is not a jibe, I am interested."oh my god, I come here for fun and a break from everyday life, doing what I do at times is pretty full on, you dont get a lot of time to yourself, so id rather not sit and type case law into my phone onto a swingers site for someone that just doesnt get it, I explained to you that it isnt as simple as you thought it was, there are alot of things to consider, so your original comment was inaccurate, its a forum on a swingers site lighten up and stop hounding people. | |||
"If you wouldn't tell your partner because they wouldn't let you do it - it's adultery. I never have understood why people who want to date multiple people don't just have poly relationships rather than shoehorning themselves into monogamous relationships and then having an affair. I'm personally not interested in seeing people who are cheating on their partners. I reason that if they treat their spouse so badly, by cheating on them, the one person in this world that they are *supposed* to be open and honest with - why would they treat me any better?" | |||
" Likewise, my mind is always open. But I'll never see the merit in an argument where the wellbeing and feelings of another human being are so comprehensively disregarded in favour of the selfish wants of another. Indeed as you suggest, that seems to me to be one of the hallmarks of a psychopath." You appear to ignore the the fact that it is as much disregard for the "wellbeing and feelings of another human being in favour of the selfish wants of another" to withdraw sex in a relationship without addressing how that affects the partner who wants/needs sex. Is it more natural to want sex or not to want it? Perhaps the answer to that may indicate who might be, if not a psychopath, at least in need of professional help of some kind. | |||
" May I ask, have you ever been married to someone who you love deeply but who withdrew sex? Have you ever viewed sex simply as a very pleasant physical activity and no where near as important as love, affection, caring, common interest, shared aims, parenting, family unity, etc? People are conditioned to believe sex is an infallible barometer of love. It is not. It is a natural and pleasant physical activity that the vast majority of human beings are driven to perform. If a relationship is otherwise good then sexual infidelity should not be considered the nuclear option. Agree totally that sexual infidelity is not the end of the world. But if you love them dearly, being dishonest to them shouldn't even be considered, should it? All the other things named as very important. Shouldn't honesty and trust be very high in that list?" The deceit is very regrettable i agree but the one point people commenting on here consistently avoid addressing is the artificial importance attached to sex. If sex was not put on this pedistal then extra relationship sex would not be a breakage in trust. Why is it so important? (Please don't say because sexual infidelity is damaging because that is a circular argument.) | |||
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"The dictionary seems to define adultery as sex with someone other than your spouse. Based on this definition, with or without consent, it's still adultery. Never realised that cheating and adultery were not necessarily the same thing... interesting "Spot on. Most marriage vows say one man one wife and not multiple sexual partners running concurrently with existing relationship. Consented swinging or non consented none is better than the other  | |||
"Absolutely fascinating reading all of these opinions on what constitutes adultery and what is acceptable / unacceptable in the eyes of different people. I must add the theological side to this if I may: In terms of the 3 major / main religions adultery is, of course, a nono as one of the Ten Commandments. i.e. Though shalt not commit it! When we look at the basis for standard marriage vows, the vows clearly state that one shall 'forsake all others...'. This could be interpreted as forsaking all other sexual partners and probably does. So, for non-atheists I guess this presents another problem in that swinging is a clear transgression against this commandment. Personally (Cockman) I am not an atheist and this presents me with a dilemma. However, due to my own personal circumstances, I am (just about to be) no longer married and so one could say that the commandment no longer applies to me. But you know, even if I do re-marry, I wouldn't stop engaging in the swinging lifestyle as since partaking Throbbin and I have met the most wonderful, liberated people that we could have wished to meet. Sadly, I do feel that existing laws pertaining to marriage probably do need to be rethought; and therefore the laws pertaining specifically to adultery probably also need to be re-thought as well. But hey, there I am talking from a swinger's point of view. Ask someone who cannot conceive of the concept of sharing your partner with others the same thing and they would probably call me a reprobate and possibly worse. It seems that with the current definition of adultery, swinging, consential or not, is indeed adulterous (when married) but of course, the biggie is the terms under which the act happens. If it is between adults that are all consenting then for me, this is not a moral issue or problem." Adultery in the Bible is all about property rights. Women were viewed as the property of the husband, so adultery is not good as it is stealing the man's property. You'll find no rules in the Bible that affect married men having sex with single women other than their wives. In fact, King Solomon had many many wives and concubines. There was no problem with that as they didn't belong to any other man. Biblical rules on adultery are only about protecting male property rights. And in a day and age where women are not viewed as property or a possession, these rules should have no relevance. | |||
"If you wouldn't tell your partner because they wouldn't let you do it - it's adultery. I never have understood why people who want to date multiple people don't just have poly relationships rather than shoehorning themselves into monogamous relationships and then having an affair. I'm personally not interested in seeing people who are cheating on their partners. I reason that if they treat their spouse so badly, by cheating on them, the one person in this world that they are *supposed* to be open and honest with - why would they treat me any better? Perhaps circumstances change, people change, partners change. I know my wife isnt the same woman I married. I know we cant seperate as we just could not afford to, and it would upset the children too much. I am trapped, and will remain so for at least another 5 years. So until I can leave, I grin and bear it. I may never leave, if our sex life ever restarted, I wouldnt be on here. Its not just sex I require, its the closeness sex brings. Its not nice living without it. We dont argue, we just dont have sex. Because she doesnt want it, and hasnt wanted it for nearly 15 years. I know, technically its cheating, but is it fair for me to have no sex life because my wife doesnt want one, and doesnt want to resolve the issue? I cannot understand how people can see relationship issues in such binary terms, if they have full knowledge of all the details. They never do though. They just assume.
Why not be honest with her?
"Honest in my being on here? Because it could only lead to divorce. We cant do that. I know people say you can, but that just means THEY can. So you make the best of a bad lot. | |||
"If you wouldn't tell your partner because they wouldn't let you do it - it's adultery. I never have understood why people who want to date multiple people don't just have poly relationships rather than shoehorning themselves into monogamous relationships and then having an affair. I'm personally not interested in seeing people who are cheating on their partners. I reason that if they treat their spouse so badly, by cheating on them, the one person in this world that they are *supposed* to be open and honest with - why would they treat me any better? Perhaps circumstances change, people change, partners change. I know my wife isnt the same woman I married. I know we cant seperate as we just could not afford to, and it would upset the children too much. I am trapped, and will remain so for at least another 5 years. So until I can leave, I grin and bear it. I may never leave, if our sex life ever restarted, I wouldnt be on here. Its not just sex I require, its the closeness sex brings. Its not nice living without it. We dont argue, we just dont have sex. Because she doesnt want it, and hasnt wanted it for nearly 15 years. I know, technically its cheating, but is it fair for me to have no sex life because my wife doesnt want one, and doesnt want to resolve the issue? I cannot understand how people can see relationship issues in such binary terms, if they have full knowledge of all the details. They never do though. They just assume.
Why not be honest with her?
Have any of those truly believing that last sentence ever sat down and told their partner that they are seeking sex elsewhere? Do they really believe that this form of "honesty" makes the other half feel better?
I have done this and I assure you it hurts like hell and keeps on hurting.
It is far easier on them to say you are off to see a mate who is unwell than to see another woman or man because they cannot meet your physical needs.
It would pay those who are quick to condem to walk a mile in the shoes of these "cheaters" before expressing a generalised condemnation."
I dont want to hurt my wife, but its okay for her to hurt me?
I wouldnt be on here if I had a sex life at home. No sex, and you start to obsess about it. This led to my keen interest in swinging and reawakened my bi side. I dont want to shag the world. I just want to enjoy sex with someone else that enjoys it to.
I was happy with our sex life prior to it disappearing. If she had suggested swinging etc, I probably would have been suprised, shocked maybe, but I would have tried it. | |||
"Whats the feckin hangup with "cheating". We all have only one life. Consider situation where hubby and wife are very happy together but hubby has zero interest in sex and wouldnt condone wife seeking it elsewhere. If all else is good in relationship why can't she seek it discretely elsewhere? Its only sex for gods sake! because she would be hurting and destroying the person she is meant to love, consider that. She only "hurts and destroys" because we are conditioned to believe sex is special. If it really is special to a relationship then why, when one partner in the relationship withdraws it, do we vilify the one who wants sex but has it denied? we dont, we expect people to do the right thing and sort out the issue , 1 way or the other before turning to lies, and hurting/destroying people, it doesnt matter which way you butter it up theres always an answer. May I ask, have you ever been married to someone who you love deeply but who withdrew sex? Have you ever viewed sex simply as a very pleasant physical activity and no where near as important as love, affection, caring, common interest, shared aims, parenting, family unity, etc? People are conditioned to believe sex is an infallible barometer of love. It is not. It is a natural and pleasant physical activity that the vast majority of human beings are driven to perform. If a relationship is otherwise good then sexual infidelity should not be considered the nuclear option. yes I have, I seen both sides, I have also seen people totally destroyed by cheating, aswell as people getting away with it for years. when you enter into a relationship/marriage, from that point on that person is your soulmate, it is the person you can trust more than anyother and they can trust you, you come across problems you work through them, you sort them out, you come to a solution "together", you do not lie, go off doing something that knowingly will absolutely destroy that person you love so dearly if they find out, there is always a solution, it may not be a totally pleasant one, but anything has got to be better than seeing the one you claim to love absolutely gutted, destroyed and hurt because you couldnt sit down and talk things through, and decided having sex with other people without there knowledge was the best option to take." Has it not occurred to you that we might have sat down and attempted to talk things through? I have attempted it many times, only to be told that she doesnt want sex, and cant see herself wanting it. I suggested counselling, no interest. Now I dont want to be the one to break up an otherwise happy marriage by giving her the ultimatum, I want sex or I am leaving. I want her to want sex as well. So what do you suggest I do with someone that wont budge? Wank for the rest of my days I suppose? | |||
" I'm all for turning when the contrary argument is convincing and compassionate. When it's neither... I think I'm not really the one who needs to be doing the turning here
Likewise, my mind is always open. But I'll never see the merit in an argument where the wellbeing and feelings of another human being are so comprehensively disregarded in favour of the selfish wants of another. Indeed as you suggest, that seems to me to be one of the hallmarks of a psychopath."So which ones at fault? One partner for expecting sex or the other for expecting not to have to? | |||
"Absolutely fascinating reading all of these opinions on what constitutes adultery and what is acceptable / unacceptable in the eyes of different people. I must add the theological side to this if I may: In terms of the 3 major / main religions adultery is, of course, a nono as one of the Ten Commandments. i.e. Though shalt not commit it! When we look at the basis for standard marriage vows, the vows clearly state that one shall 'forsake all others...'. This could be interpreted as forsaking all other sexual partners and probably does. So, for non-atheists I guess this presents another problem in that swinging is a clear transgression against this commandment. Personally (Cockman) I am not an atheist and this presents me with a dilemma. However, due to my own personal circumstances, I am (just about to be) no longer married and so one could say that the commandment no longer applies to me. But you know, even if I do re-marry, I wouldn't stop engaging in the swinging lifestyle as since partaking Throbbin and I have met the most wonderful, liberated people that we could have wished to meet. Sadly, I do feel that existing laws pertaining to marriage probably do need to be rethought; and therefore the laws pertaining specifically to adultery probably also need to be re-thought as well. But hey, there I am talking from a swinger's point of view. Ask someone who cannot conceive of the concept of sharing your partner with others the same thing and they would probably call me a reprobate and possibly worse. It seems that with the current definition of adultery, swinging, consential or not, is indeed adulterous (when married) but of course, the biggie is the terms under which the act happens. If it is between adults that are all consenting then for me, this is not a moral issue or problem." You dont have to add the theological issues....really...you dont. | |||
" Perhaps circumstances change, people change, partners change. I know my wife isnt the same woman I married. I know we cant seperate as we just could not afford to, and it would upset the children too much. I am trapped, and will remain so for at least another 5 years. So until I can leave, I grin and bear it. I may never leave, if our sex life ever restarted, I wouldnt be on here. Its not just sex I require, its the closeness sex brings. Its not nice living without it. We dont argue, we just dont have sex. Because she doesnt want it, and hasnt wanted it for nearly 15 years. I know, technically its cheating, but is it fair for me to have no sex life because my wife doesnt want one, and doesnt want to resolve the issue? I cannot understand how people can see relationship issues in such binary terms, if they have full knowledge of all the details. They never do though. They just assume. Yes, I understand all those things you say. I was in a relationship with someone who I never argued with, but we discovered had an incredibly low sex drive which eventually turned into no sex. I'd moved across the country to be with him, so I had no good job and no means of surviving on my own. I had no savings because of quitting my job, I had nothing. But instead of staying with him just because it was inconvenient to move out, I eventually decided that the way forward was polyamory and multiple partners and left. I was made homeless. I had no job. I lived in a damp house with no heating for nine months which caused nerve damage in my feet. Because I didn't believe it was fair to have sex behind his back just because we were incompatible. From the other side, I was a teenager who had parents that stayed together for quite a long while because of the inconvenience factor and because they didn't want to destabilise me life. Unfortunately I knew everything that was going on because kids aren't stupid. It wrecked me and I ended up failing all my exams because I was so unsettled by them being unhappy all the time. People just disregard my experiences as a one off, as unusual. But the fact is that several of my school friends went through similar experiences as kids and teenagers. We all knew that our parents were unhappy and it made us unhappy. And like I said - I made myself homeless and permanently damaged my feet. Just because I didn't think it was right to cheat on someone I cared for. So I guess those sad stories just don't wash with me." You didnt do this trying to raise twp young kids as well though, did you? | |||
" You didnt do this trying to raise twp young kids as well though, did you?" No, but also see the point that I made about being completely damaged as a child because of my parents divorced. To be frank, it's taken me until I was 28 to get my life back on track and get into university and start my career. I knew for two years that my Mum was having sex behind my Dads back. Two years. And I had to keep it a secret. She never told me, but I wasn't stupid. And several of my friends were the same. | |||
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"Lots of justifying of cheating it seems, but doesn't it always come back to honesty? There was a mention by someone saying should he resort to a life of wanking well maybe for the sake of being honest the answer is yes? Of course these are sad circumstances but we expect honesty from others so shouldn't we give it? Then the guys on here who are cheating and then moan no one wants to meet them?" I don't moan about it. Answer my question, what do you do when your partner flatly refuses to help you or themselves? Seek separation and the hurt and depravation and upset that inevitably would happen to the kids? Or have the occasional bit of NSA sex with someone of a like mind. I don't want an affair. I just want an important aspect of what should be in a relationship, back in my life. | |||
"Lots of justifying of cheating it seems, but doesn't it always come back to honesty? There was a mention by someone saying should he resort to a life of wanking well maybe for the sake of being honest the answer is yes? Of course these are sad circumstances but we expect honesty from others so shouldn't we give it? Then the guys on here who are cheating and then moan no one wants to meet them? I don't moan about it. Answer my question, what do you do when your partner flatly refuses to help you or themselves? Seek separation and the hurt and depravation and upset that inevitably would happen to the kids? Or have the occasional bit of NSA sex with someone of a like mind. I don't want an affair. I just want an important aspect of what should be in a relationship, back in my life." neither, you work at it with the person you profess to love, have in depth talks, come to a solution "together", you dont go ahead and do something that will tear them apart if/when they find out about it. | |||
" I'm all for turning when the contrary argument is convincing and compassionate. When it's neither... I think I'm not really the one who needs to be doing the turning here
Likewise, my mind is always open. But I'll never see the merit in an argument where the wellbeing and feelings of another human being are so comprehensively disregarded in favour of the selfish wants of another. Indeed as you suggest, that seems to me to be one of the hallmarks of a psychopath.
So which ones at fault? One partner for expecting sex or the other for expecting not to have to?"Depends on the reasons for the other party not wanting sex I guess. I've seen loads of people who come seeking help for a low libido. There is always a reason. No one sits there thinking 'I don't want sex to be a bitch to my husband'. So address WHY she doesn't want sex!? | |||
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"Lots of justifying of cheating it seems, but doesn't it always come back to honesty? There was a mention by someone saying should he resort to a life of wanking well maybe for the sake of being honest the answer is yes? Of course these are sad circumstances but we expect honesty from others so shouldn't we give it? Then the guys on here who are cheating and then moan no one wants to meet them? I don't moan about it. Answer my question, what do you do when your partner flatly refuses to help you or themselves? Seek separation and the hurt and depravation and upset that inevitably would happen to the kids? Or have the occasional bit of NSA sex with someone of a like mind. I don't want an affair. I just want an important aspect of what should be in a relationship, back in my life. neither, you work at it with the person you profess to love, have in depth talks, come to a solution "together", you dont go ahead and do something that will tear them apart if/when they find out about it." When you find out someone is cheating on you it rips your heart out and at the time destroys your life x | |||
" I'm all for turning when the contrary argument is convincing and compassionate. When it's neither... I think I'm not really the one who needs to be doing the turning here
Likewise, my mind is always open. But I'll never see the merit in an argument where the wellbeing and feelings of another human being are so comprehensively disregarded in favour of the selfish wants of another. Indeed as you suggest, that seems to me to be one of the hallmarks of a psychopath.
So which ones at fault? One partner for expecting sex or the other for expecting not to have to?
Depends on the reasons for the other party not wanting sex I guess. I've seen loads of people who come seeking help for a low libido. There is always a reason. No one sits there thinking 'I don't want sex to be a bitch to my husband'. So address WHY she doesn't want sex!?"Women can lose their sex drive for a number of reasons. Sadly, once the sex drive is lost, and it may not be anything to do with the husband, their lack of interest frequently extends to not wanting to get it back. "I don't miss what i don't desire" is often what is said. The husband then not only experiences frustration but feels rejection by the woman he loves. That hurts! "Cheating" is often viewed as a solution to frustration (hence the alternative recommendation to "go and wank you cheating bastard!") but it is frequently a confirmation of the mans basic need to be desired that drives him. Life is far more complex than some of the simple views expressed in the forum. | |||
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"Absolutely fascinating reading all of these opinions on what constitutes adultery and what is acceptable / unacceptable in the eyes of different people. I must add the theological side to this if I may: In terms of the 3 major / main religions adultery is, of course, a nono as one of the Ten Commandments. i.e. Though shalt not commit it! When we look at the basis for standard marriage vows, the vows clearly state that one shall 'forsake all others...'. This could be interpreted as forsaking all other sexual partners and probably does. So, for non-atheists I guess this presents another problem in that swinging is a clear transgression against this commandment. Personally (Cockman) I am not an atheist and this presents me with a dilemma. However, due to my own personal circumstances, I am (just about to be) no longer married and so one could say that the commandment no longer applies to me. But you know, even if I do re-marry, I wouldn't stop engaging in the swinging lifestyle as since partaking Throbbin and I have met the most wonderful, liberated people that we could have wished to meet. Sadly, I do feel that existing laws pertaining to marriage probably do need to be rethought; and therefore the laws pertaining specifically to adultery probably also need to be re-thought as well. But hey, there I am talking from a swinger's point of view. Ask someone who cannot conceive of the concept of sharing your partner with others the same thing and they would probably call me a reprobate and possibly worse. It seems that with the current definition of adultery, swinging, consential or not, is indeed adulterous (when married) but of course, the biggie is the terms under which the act happens. If it is between adults that are all consenting then for me, this is not a moral issue or problem. You dont have to add the theological issues....really...you dont." I believe I did actually, so that we could explore all aspects of this discussion. | |||
