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CD/TV/TS appreciation 2024_2

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By *lipy123 OP   TV/TS 51 weeks ago

Birmingham

Well the last thread filled up It seems to be popular so i thought i would start a new one

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By *ristol_nicolaTV/TS 51 weeks ago

Bristol

Hi!

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By *iltsTSgirlTV/TS 51 weeks ago

chichester

Good morning

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By *lipy123 OP   TV/TS 51 weeks ago

Birmingham

Good morning ladies x

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By *ungry guy 2021Man 51 weeks ago

Ambleside

Morning lovely ladies x

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By *ilcutie123TV/TS 51 weeks ago

Plymouth

Hi there x

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By *MisschiefxTV/TS 51 weeks ago

London

Hey all

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By (user no longer on site) 51 weeks ago

More Tgirls please xxx

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By *inky MelissaTV/TS 51 weeks ago

Aberdeen

[Removed by poster at 03/02/24 12:02:12]

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By *inky MelissaTV/TS 51 weeks ago

Aberdeen

Hello

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By *l869Man 51 weeks ago

York

Hi girls xxx

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By *hrissycox66TV/TS 51 weeks ago

watford

Hi x

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By *ikilovesCCouple 51 weeks ago

village life, closest main town inverness

It's great that you've kept it going slipy,

and it's always nice to see you and everyone else looking fantastic

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By *ristol_nicolaTV/TS 51 weeks ago

Bristol


"It's great that you've kept it going slipy,

and it's always nice to see you and everyone else looking fantastic "

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By *leased to meet youTV/TS 51 weeks ago

Southend-on-Sea

Any bi couple's who like a top CD to join you.

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By *ama bamaMan 51 weeks ago

dalkeith

Would love to pamper a regular TV near Edinburgh

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By *ikilovesCCouple 51 weeks ago

village life, closest main town inverness


"It's great that you've kept it going slipy,

and it's always nice to see you and everyone else looking fantastic "

.

Always a delight to see the lovely Nicola on too

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By *ucy1004TV/TS 51 weeks ago

Retford

Hi xx

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By (user no longer on site) 51 weeks ago

Hi hi

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By *ustauseerTV/TS 51 weeks ago

Sedgemoor

Hihi

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By *wingnswitchCouple 51 weeks ago

NEWARK

Good afternoon all. Bi couple here, male is also CD/TV. A few pics on profile x

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By *ristol_nicolaTV/TS 51 weeks ago

Bristol


"Good afternoon all. Bi couple here, male is also CD/TV. A few pics on profile x"

Hi!

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By *wingnswitchCouple 51 weeks ago

NEWARK


"Good afternoon all. Bi couple here, male is also CD/TV. A few pics on profile x

Hi! "

Hello darling x

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By *aceloverxMan 51 weeks ago

southwest Wales by the sea

Hi all xx

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By *harliebluestockingsCouple 51 weeks ago

london

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By *d_deeTV/TS 51 weeks ago

cheshire

Hello

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By *ickinNottsMan 51 weeks ago

Hucknall

Love a sexy tgurl.

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By *BW TV JadaTV/TS 51 weeks ago

North West

Hi xx

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By *lex1031Man 51 weeks ago

derby

Hi all

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By *ini1275Man 51 weeks ago

stoke on trent

Love a tgirl so sexy x

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By *urabriteMan 50 weeks ago

stafford

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By *hank you sirMan 50 weeks ago

colchester

There are some gorgeous CD, TV & TGirls here, im a fan

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By *hank you sirMan 50 weeks ago

colchester

There are some gorgeous CD, TV & TGirls here, im a fan

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

Hello everyone x

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

Sexy as hell xx

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By *achel SmythTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Farnborough

Good morning you gorgeous people xx

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

Good morning all xxx

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By *illie99TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Central Scotland

Hello girls xx

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By *reckit.ralphMan 50 weeks ago

Birmingham

How do I become a after supporter? I've tried texting but it's not sending

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By *uiet_69Man 50 weeks ago

Near

I love you all ladies

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By *issy_named_cTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Edinburgh

Thought I should just drop a little note down and wave hi to all

C

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By *uiet_69Man 50 weeks ago

Near


"Thought I should just drop a little note down and wave hi to all

C"

Hi sexy

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Stockport

Good morning all. I could do with a bit of appreciation to take my mind off the pain (clicky shoulder that keeps clicking to the wrong position, especially when I lie down to sleep, loud cracks and ow ow ow to get it right in the morning).

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By *erry bull1Man 50 weeks ago

doncaster

Morning girls xx

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By *lipy123 OP   TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Birmingham


"Good afternoon all. Bi couple here, male is also CD/TV. A few pics on profile x"

Wow Amber you brush up well in fem

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By *aptain Caveman41Man 50 weeks ago

Home

Hope all you lovely ladies are doing well

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By *lipy123 OP   TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Birmingham


"It's great that you've kept it going slipy,

and it's always nice to see you and everyone else looking fantastic "

Thank you K & C It does seem that people like the thread and nice to see gurls taking part.. I will keep them going as long as there is a demand

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By *lisonTVsissyTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Torrevieja, Spain

Hello all you lovely ladies

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By *leased to meet youTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Southend-on-Sea

This naughty girl is in need of a bi couple if there's any around Essex!

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago


"Good morning all. I could do with a bit of appreciation to take my mind off the pain (clicky shoulder that keeps clicking to the wrong position, especially when I lie down to sleep, loud cracks and ow ow ow to get it right in the morning)."

Ouch, that sounds nasty! Hope it eased for you through the day ?

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By *mmy_sextoyslaveTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Walsall

Hi everyone x

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By *iltsTSgirlTV/TS 50 weeks ago

chichester

Evening

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago


"Evening "

Good evening right back at ya, you wonderful hottie you

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By *r K and Mrs LCouple 50 weeks ago

Leicester


"Evening "
wow..!!

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By *inknipzloverMan 50 weeks ago

Hertfordshire

Xxx

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By *ave1976XXXMan 50 weeks ago

newmarket

I’m a bi guy that loves to dress

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

Well hello there

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By *J GeminiTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Northumberland

,

Xx

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

Hopefully you’re all having a more fun evening than me? Just waiting out the last few hours of my week of on-call before drifting off into the the well earned sleep of the just

What have your weekends been like ? What’s going on in your respective worlds ?

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By *arahhhTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Glasgow

Heyy lovelies

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By *hantelle-La-SlutTV/TS 50 weeks ago

South Birmingham

Hello

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By *aria_dreamgirlTV/TS 50 weeks ago

stockport

Love me for who or what I represent

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By *unlovin72Man 50 weeks ago

BARNSLEY

Love all the sexy ladies on this thread I would meet you all if I could

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago


"Love me for who or what I represent "

That’s a really good point, there was another thread recently dealing with the dilemma that is fetishising a particular aspects of a persons life and having a preference for that particular aspect. Really interesting reading

Nice to see people appreciate trans* but also remember we are all individuals

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago


"Good morning "
wow absolutely stunning

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By *hil153Man 50 weeks ago

Bournemouth

So many lovely ladies x

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By *hil153Man 50 weeks ago

Bournemouth


"Hopefully you’re all having a more fun evening than me? Just waiting out the last few hours of my week of on-call before drifting off into the the well earned sleep of the just

What have your weekends been like ? What’s going on in your respective worlds ? "

Working ..but wonderful seeing u online ..chatting and ure gorgeous new pics x

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago


"What have your weekends been like ? What’s going on in your respective worlds ?

Working ..but wonderful seeing u online ..chatting and ure gorgeous new pics x"

You charmer, you

Hope the evening is kind to you and you stay safe, always think of you when you’re working to keep everyone else safe

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By *hil153Man 50 weeks ago

Bournemouth


"What have your weekends been like ? What’s going on in your respective worlds ?

Working ..but wonderful seeing u online ..chatting and ure gorgeous new pics x

You charmer, you

Hope the evening is kind to you and you stay safe, always think of you when you’re working to keep everyone else safe "

Bless u always good catching up Miss sexy

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By *ust RachelTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Horsham

Good evening all.

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago


"Good evening all."

Hi Rachel, are you keeping well?

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By *arah_tv999TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Oxford

Hi everyone

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By *lldaybreakfastMan 50 weeks ago

leeds

Hi all hope you like please get in touch if you are local

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By *eard and BoobsCouple 50 weeks ago

Portstewart

Would love to meet a fine ts that's reasonable distance for us if that is you get in touch

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By *antravMan 50 weeks ago

Sutton in Ashfield

Hello everyone!

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago


"Good morning "
well hellooo there

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

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By *ama bamaMan 50 weeks ago

dalkeith

Good morning to all you beautiful women.

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

Bueños Dias desde Argentina chicas x

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By *eeshelleTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Marlow

Hi guys

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By *unx2019Couple 50 weeks ago

Moray

Love my little cuck all dressed up, such a sexy girlfriend

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By *loria JamesTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Durham

Good morning everyone x

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By *ndreacdxxxxTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Derby

Hi everybody x

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By *aria_dreamgirlTV/TS 50 weeks ago

stockport

Good afternoon from rainy Stockport.

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By *ulie RobertsTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Southampton

Can I join in please

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By *iltsTSgirlTV/TS 50 weeks ago

chichester

Afternoon all

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By *ammy_xMan 50 weeks ago

Reading


"Afternoon all "

Good afternoon, looking hot as ever x

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By *ristol BiteMan 50 weeks ago

all over

So many CD or Tgirls seem to be packing so much more than average... And it just visually works.

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By *iltsTSgirlTV/TS 50 weeks ago

chichester


"So many CD or Tgirls seem to be packing so much more than average... And it just visually works."

It’s the tranny juice we drink to make our femrod as grow

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago


"So many CD or Tgirls seem to be packing so much more than average... And it just visually works.

It’s the tranny juice we drink to make our femrod as grow "

I mix mine with pomegranate seeds for that extra estrogen kick

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

Hi girls x

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago


"Afternoon all "

Wow! Amazing as always..

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By *ausageandbeansMan 50 weeks ago

south west

Evening all

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By *lipy123 OP   TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Birmingham


"So many CD or Tgirls seem to be packing so much more than average... And it just visually works."

Glad your enjoying the thread Antony

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By *lipy123 OP   TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Birmingham


"Hi girls x "

Your looking very fem Sarah

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By *avexxMan 50 weeks ago

cheshire

look great girls

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By *oe11109Man 50 weeks ago

Barrow-in-Furness

Huge turn on, you all look amazing!

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By *avinaTVTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Transsexual Transylvania


"So many CD or Tgirls seem to be packing so much more than average... And it just visually works."

I dare not show mine in my pics because of the hate from all the straight men, and the avalanche of messages from all the bi/gay men and women.

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By *avinaTVTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Transsexual Transylvania


"So many CD or Tgirls seem to be packing so much more than average... And it just visually works.

It’s the tranny juice we drink to make our femrod as grow "

Shhhh. Everyone will want it now.

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By *orkspoonMan 50 weeks ago

nearby

Much appreciation of the sexiness on show here

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By *nnrelTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Biggleswade

Hi all. Hope your all having a good week!

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By *1974TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Reading

I’m definitely a fan and also been know to dress myself

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By *aisy WamTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Swansea

Wow ! There are so many beautiful girls on here xx

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By *issalignedTV/TS 50 weeks ago

London

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By *otguy555Man 50 weeks ago

Bristol


"Wow ! There are so many beautiful girls on here xx"
?? agree

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By *iltsTSgirlTV/TS 50 weeks ago

chichester


"So many CD or Tgirls seem to be packing so much more than average... And it just visually works.

It’s the tranny juice we drink to make our femrod as grow

Shhhh. Everyone will want it now. "

It’s ok I won’t tell them where we get it from though

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By *r K and Mrs LCouple 50 weeks ago

Leicester

Whatever you use or do you look great..x

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

Very sexy

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By *inaTitzTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

Just visiting

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By *ulie RobertsTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Southampton

Well done girls you all look fab

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By *ily4.2.0TV/TS 50 weeks ago

S,Wales

Just popped in to say hi

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By *atexpvcTV/TS 50 weeks ago

chester/Merseyside

Hello everyone..anyone into BDSM?

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By *tevieCDMan 50 weeks ago

fareham

Hello everyone

X

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By *ristol BiteMan 50 weeks ago

all over


"So many CD or Tgirls seem to be packing so much more than average... And it just visually works.

It’s the tranny juice we drink to make our femrod as grow "

Haha well... Looking at your pics I've gotta say you made me grow a few sizes.

Your magical tranny juice certainly seems to be doing the trick haha!

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago


"So many CD or Tgirls seem to be packing so much more than average... And it just visually works."

I know right?! All of my fem friends are like 7-8 inches. I feel small these days even with 7.5 although that is the average size for a femboy I guess _

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By *issyfaggotfayeTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Bolton

So many sexy gorgeous gurls here x

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By *ubcdverykinkyMan 50 weeks ago

Bourne lincs

Morning all xx

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By *r K and Mrs LCouple 50 weeks ago

Leicester


"So many sexy gorgeous gurls here x "
yes there is and your one of them

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By *aige_TurningTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Leeds

Just saying hi..!

Always late to the party

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By *iltsTSgirlTV/TS 50 weeks ago

chichester

It’s wet Wednesday

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

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By *ngelLordCouple 50 weeks ago

Newport

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By *avinaTVTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Transsexual Transylvania


"It’s wet Wednesday "

But I'm not wet.

...yet.

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By *anyaTgirlTV/TS 50 weeks ago

manchester

Hwllo everyone xx mwah

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By *S chanel demarTV/TS 50 weeks ago

peterborough


"So many CD or Tgirls seem to be packing so much more than average... And it just visually works.

I know right?! All of my fem friends are like 7-8 inches. I feel small these days even with 7.5 although that is the average size for a femboy I guess _"

Well I'm not 7 or 8 and very happy about it. Being more a lesbian I love my girls, but having a big one just looks to blokey. Easier to tuck as well......

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By *lutsadieTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Hinckley

Hi everyone xx

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By *lackdogg222Man 50 weeks ago

Bristol

You always look gorgeous Wilts x x

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By *eaSlutsCouple 50 weeks ago

Glasgow

Always got love for Fab's trans folx, from us both!

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By *lipy123 OP   TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Birmingham


"So many CD or Tgirls seem to be packing so much more than average... And it just visually works.

I know right?! All of my fem friends are like 7-8 inches. I feel small these days even with 7.5 although that is the average size for a femboy I guess _"

7.5 sounds good to me Aether we are not all into big cocks

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By *mmaTTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Chipping Norton

Hello all xx

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By *rMrs84Couple 50 weeks ago

Doncaster

I have a question (and I hope this is the place, and that it'll be taken in the vein it's intended - honest curiosity)

Why do we place TS with CD/TV? It always feels a bit odd to me. Assuming we're not wrong and TS stands for transexual we're talking about something that is (for want of the right word) a health condition and that is being (hopefully) treated with gender affirmation processes. Obviously people may be different stages through the process but it is a medical thing.

From what we understand (again please kindly correct if this is misunderstood) CD/TV is more a sexual kink than anything else.

Can someone genuinely educate us on this as it's always caused confusion when searching.

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By *lipy123 OP   TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Birmingham


"I have a question (and I hope this is the place, and that it'll be taken in the vein it's intended - honest curiosity)

Why do we place TS with CD/TV? It always feels a bit odd to me. Assuming we're not wrong and TS stands for transexual we're talking about something that is (for want of the right word) a health condition and that is being (hopefully) treated with gender affirmation processes. Obviously people may be different stages through the process but it is a medical thing.

From what we understand (again please kindly correct if this is misunderstood) CD/TV is more a sexual kink than anything else.

Can someone genuinely educate us on this as it's always caused confusion when searching. "

Start a thread with this question.

This is purely a fun thread not a serious discussion thread.

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By *lipy123 OP   TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Birmingham


"Hello all xx"

Looking classy Emma

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By *ewcdplymouthTV/TS 50 weeks ago

plymouth

Love these threads x

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By *rMrs84Couple 50 weeks ago

Doncaster


"I have a question (and I hope this is the place, and that it'll be taken in the vein it's intended - honest curiosity)

Why do we place TS with CD/TV? It always feels a bit odd to me. Assuming we're not wrong and TS stands for transexual we're talking about something that is (for want of the right word) a health condition and that is being (hopefully) treated with gender affirmation processes. Obviously people may be different stages through the process but it is a medical thing.

From what we understand (again please kindly correct if this is misunderstood) CD/TV is more a sexual kink than anything else.

Can someone genuinely educate us on this as it's always caused confusion when searching.

Start a thread with this question.

This is purely a fun thread not a serious discussion thread. "

That’s fair and I’m happy to do so. I was hoping it might just be a quick answer from people with a vested interest but totally happy with that logic too.

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By *atie_friendly2TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Tewkesbury

Hiya everyone x

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By *andy KTV/TS 50 weeks ago

somewhere

Hiya everyone x

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By *S chanel demarTV/TS 50 weeks ago

peterborough


"I have a question (and I hope this is the place, and that it'll be taken in the vein it's intended - honest curiosity)

Why do we place TS with CD/TV? It always feels a bit odd to me. Assuming we're not wrong and TS stands for transexual we're talking about something that is (for want of the right word) a health condition and that is being (hopefully) treated with gender affirmation processes. Obviously people may be different stages through the process but it is a medical thing.

From what we understand (again please kindly correct if this is misunderstood) CD/TV is more a sexual kink than anything else.

Can someone genuinely educate us on this as it's always caused confusion when searching.

Start a thread with this question.

This is purely a fun thread not a serious discussion thread. "

Rude !! It's exactly the right place to ask this question

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By *eneralKenobiMan 50 weeks ago

North Angus

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By *enrydarrenMan 50 weeks ago

Harrow Weald

Horny for a CD TV pics welcome to be sent

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By *dresserTV/TS 50 weeks ago

nantwich

Well hello sexy people I just love Lingerie xx

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By *lipy123 OP   TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Birmingham


"Horny for a CD TV pics welcome to be sent "

Plenty of pic's on fab Henry

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By *BW TV JadaTV/TS 50 weeks ago

North West


"I have a question (and I hope this is the place, and that it'll be taken in the vein it's intended - honest curiosity)

Why do we place TS with CD/TV? It always feels a bit odd to me. Assuming we're not wrong and TS stands for transexual we're talking about something that is (for want of the right word) a health condition and that is being (hopefully) treated with gender affirmation processes. Obviously people may be different stages through the process but it is a medical thing.

From what we understand (again please kindly correct if this is misunderstood) CD/TV is more a sexual kink than anything else.

Can someone genuinely educate us on this as it's always caused confusion when searching.

Start a thread with this question.

This is purely a fun thread not a serious discussion thread.

Rude !! It's exactly the right place to ask this question"

It's a tricky one but some of us CD/TVs do suffer from gender dysphoria but have not chosen or been able to transition.

There are some people who just like female clothing too but I feel like it is a spectrum and difficult to create precise categories that will please all.

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

Joined this site a couple of weeks ago and can finally post on the Forum...yay! Hi everybody.

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago

I just pop my head in and say hello

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By *tephTV67TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Cheshire


"I have a question (and I hope this is the place, and that it'll be taken in the vein it's intended - honest curiosity)

Why do we place TS with CD/TV? It always feels a bit odd to me. Assuming we're not wrong and TS stands for transexual we're talking about something that is (for want of the right word) a health condition and that is being (hopefully) treated with gender affirmation processes. Obviously people may be different stages through the process but it is a medical thing.

From what we understand (again please kindly correct if this is misunderstood) CD/TV is more a sexual kink than anything else.

Can someone genuinely educate us on this as it's always caused confusion when searching.

Start a thread with this question.

This is purely a fun thread not a serious discussion thread.

Rude !! It's exactly the right place to ask this question

It's a tricky one but some of us CD/TVs do suffer from gender dysphoria but have not chosen or been able to transition.

There are some people who just like female clothing too but I feel like it is a spectrum and difficult to create precise categories that will please all. "

This

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By *ikilovesCCouple 50 weeks ago

village life, closest main town inverness


"Joined this site a couple of weeks ago and can finally post on the Forum...yay! Hi everybody."

.

Hi and welcome to the forums, best part of the site lol

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By *annix83TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Axbridge

Am loving the appreciation x

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By *olly SwallowsTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Sexville

Hey peeps x

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By *lipy123 OP   TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Birmingham


"Joined this site a couple of weeks ago and can finally post on the Forum...yay! Hi everybody."

Welcome to the site and the thread Sakia

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By *lipy123 OP   TV/TS 50 weeks ago

Birmingham


"Hey peeps x"

Hello Molly always a pleasure to see you on the thread xx

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By *erri_kissesTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Islington

Hey hey

Always looking for new local gal pals so give me a nudge local girls xxxx

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By *atin JennyTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Watford

Hi all. Just love being en femme

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By *ittleJohn5Man 50 weeks ago

Wickham Market

You’re all looking great

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By *ressMeUpMan 50 weeks ago

Wilts / Glos

I only have a couple of panty wearin pics on my profile, but I'd love to find someone who would let me wear their partner's underwear and clothes and take more naughty photos of me.

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By *leased to meet youTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Southend-on-Sea

So many hot girls this top girl would love to be balls deep in but so far away

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By *aria_dreamgirlTV/TS 50 weeks ago

stockport

It's great to be part of the trans community and whatever you see you are love always.

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By (user no longer on site) 50 weeks ago


"Joined this site a couple of weeks ago and can finally post on the Forum...yay! Hi everybody.

Welcome to the site and the thread Sakia "

Thanks very much, enjoying it so far.

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By *oannesTV/TS 50 weeks ago

Trafford

Hello

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By *ohn snowMan 50 weeks ago

bletchley

Afternoon girls...

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By *ikki SmithTV/TS 50 weeks ago

London

Happy Saturday

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By *eaAndBiscuit1989Man 50 weeks ago

Burnley

Hello ladies

Happy Saturday

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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago

Bueños Dias desde Montevideo x

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By *harliebluestockingsCouple 49 weeks ago

london

Very sexy gurls indeed. Appreciate the effort that goes into looking so damn sexy

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By *ressuploverTV/TS 49 weeks ago

Cardiff

Wow, lots of stunning ladies on here!

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By *iltsTSgirlTV/TS 49 weeks ago

chichester

Afternoon perverts

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By *hil153Man 49 weeks ago

Bournemouth


"Afternoon perverts "

Takes one to know one

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By *aturefunswTV/TS 49 weeks ago

bristol

Hiya sorry for being late x

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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago

Im always late

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By *aptain Caveman41Man 49 weeks ago

Home


"Hiya sorry for being late x"
suppose as the saying goes it's better late than never

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By *teve E BearMan 49 weeks ago

Sheffield

Ace profile x

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By *issy4kinkTV/TS 49 weeks ago

Leeds

Hey all!

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By *nkedguy777Man 49 weeks ago

Manchester

Some seriously hot tgirls on here

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By *lutsadieTV/TS 49 weeks ago

Hinckley

Hello everyone xx

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By *enrydarrenMan 49 weeks ago

Harrow Weald

Sigh some lovely girls on here..it’s been a while since I played with one

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