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Cumming too quick

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago

How long should a man last for in general?

I usually come too quick and feel embarrassed.

Is there a way to build this up as it’s affecting my confidence.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Geezer, dont be thinking about how long you take..

Concentrate on your lady.

it's all about knowing what makes you cum faster and being open with said lady if you feel it's a problem.

For the answer to your question in my clock watchin cum times it varies. 1 day mins, next hours others? Time was irrelivent as it was time after time after etc etc...

Stop stressin and enjoy your 25 not 15

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"How long should a man last for in general?

I usually come too quick and feel embarrassed.

Is there a way to build this up as it’s affecting my confidence. "

Try lasting for longer in a cadet before lasting longer in general.

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By *exylilzWoman  over a year ago

Hertfordshire

An ex of mine would only last about 1 min before cumming not good for me as i love long sex where i can be pleasured for a long time

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I have read online that if you fuck a watermelon it can help you to stay longer due to the melanine that watermelon contains.

They all do that in Japan

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By *nabelle21Woman  over a year ago

B38

Dont let it affect your confidence. Just do other stuff...good advice to concentrate on the lady whilst you calm down. Enjoy it and don't stress about it x

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By *nabelle21Woman  over a year ago

B38


"I have read online that if you fuck a watermelon it can help you to stay longer due to the melanine that watermelon contains.

They all do that in Japan "

Ok..is that something that has worked for you? If so how long can you last?

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I have read online that if you fuck a watermelon it can help you to stay longer due to the melanine that watermelon contains.

They all do that in Japan

Ok..is that something that has worked for you? If so how long can you last?"

3 minutes and a half now

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By *nabelle21Woman  over a year ago

B38


"I have read online that if you fuck a watermelon it can help you to stay longer due to the melanine that watermelon contains.

They all do that in Japan

Ok..is that something that has worked for you? If so how long can you last?

3 minutes and a half now "

Ooòo that long....I'd need a fag break

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I have read online that if you fuck a watermelon it can help you to stay longer due to the melanine that watermelon contains.

They all do that in Japan

Ok..is that something that has worked for you? If so how long can you last?

3 minutes and a half now

Ooòo that long....I'd need a fag break"

You can have it while I am putting the dishes into the sink

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By *nabelle21Woman  over a year ago

B38


"I have read online that if you fuck a watermelon it can help you to stay longer due to the melanine that watermelon contains.

They all do that in Japan

Ok..is that something that has worked for you? If so how long can you last?

3 minutes and a half now

Ooòo that long....I'd need a fag break

You can have it while I am putting the dishes into the sink "

You are indeed fabulous

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By *astyEricMan  over a year ago

Hull

[Removed by poster at 25/05/19 06:52:25]

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

It’s a vicious cycle, the more you think about your longevity, particularly when you’re in the moment. The shorter you’ll last.

And it’s damn hard to not think about it once your mind starts wandering down that road. I’ve been there, and it is embarrassing.

But. It can get better. You ‘just’ have to not think about it,- find something else to focus your attention on, and maybe, try a different position.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I have read online that if you fuck a watermelon it can help you to stay longer due to the melanine that watermelon contains.

They all do that in Japan

Ok..is that something that has worked for you? If so how long can you last?

3 minutes and a half now

Ooòo that long....I'd need a fag break

You can have it while I am putting the dishes into the sink

You are indeed fabulous "

But please do not shave me when I fall asleep after all the effort I have done to take you to cloud 9 with my fiat 500.

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By *astyEricMan  over a year ago

Hull


"I have read online that if you fuck a watermelon it can help you to stay longer due to the melanine that watermelon contains.

They all do that in Japan "

Hilarious

Wonder what effect on stamina can natural pigment have

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By *nabelle21Woman  over a year ago

B38


"I have read online that if you fuck a watermelon it can help you to stay longer due to the melanine that watermelon contains.

They all do that in Japan

Ok..is that something that has worked for you? If so how long can you last?

3 minutes and a half now

Ooòo that long....I'd need a fag break

You can have it while I am putting the dishes into the sink

You are indeed fabulous

But please do not shave me when I fall asleep after all the effort I have done to take you to cloud 9 with my fiat 500. "

Can't promise that...you'll have to keep with one eye open.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I tend to find the longer the foreplay the longer I last, just don’t make an issue about it otherwise it’ll be all you think about.

We have all been there at some point or another.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I have read online that if you fuck a watermelon it can help you to stay longer due to the melanine that watermelon contains.

They all do that in Japan

Ok..is that something that has worked for you? If so how long can you last?

3 minutes and a half now

Ooòo that long....I'd need a fag break

You can have it while I am putting the dishes into the sink

You are indeed fabulous

But please do not shave me when I fall asleep after all the effort I have done to take you to cloud 9 with my fiat 500.

Can't promise that...you'll have to keep with one eye open.

"

This just made cry with laughter

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By *lipperyWhenWetCplCouple  over a year ago

kirby le soken / Southend on sea

OP I'm certainly no guru but worrying about cumming too soon or how long you last is only gonna spoil things a little. Just relax, stop overthinking and enjoy the moment. Personally it's not about banging away for ages but the passion and intensity. Lots of forplay, slow things down a little it only adds to the build up and there's no harm in reverting back to forplay to before cumming. I find edging or stopping before you cum a couple of times really enhances the sensation when you do cum.

Failing that try viagra if it's really that much of an issue, I found I can repeat again and again without stopping with that stuff but lengthy sex is not often the most enjoyable, for us anyway.

To answer your original question according to things I've seen on tv and the internet something around 5 - 10 mins is the average apparently but who's counting... if you're both enjoying it time becomes irrelevant.

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By *elsh_naturist_coupleCouple  over a year ago

Newport

Apparently around 5mins average.

I suspect most men worry about it. If you do suffer premature ejaculation do your research on line see what doctors say.

There are delay condoms and creams that slightly numb your penis.

There is always the other option when your close stop and change position. If you cum to early move onto foreplay till your ready again.

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By *astyEricMan  over a year ago

Hull


"Apparently around 5mins average.

I suspect most men worry about it. If you do suffer premature ejaculation do your research on line see what doctors say.

There are delay condoms and creams that slightly numb your penis.

There is always the other option when your close stop and change position. If you cum to early move onto foreplay till your ready again."

You can accualy train yourself to last longer, there is plenty of advise on Internet

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By *tephenBunChowMan  over a year ago

Haywards heath/Waterlooville

It's a mindset thing, train your mind to think of something else.

As someone else suggested if you're gonna cum soon then you can pleasure your other half in other ways, it's not all about penetration.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Think of dead kittens throughout, that should take your mind off things.

Think most men worry about it but most wont admit to it

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Durex Extra Safe. They're so thick you can't feel a thing!

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By *nabelle21Woman  over a year ago

B38


"Durex Extra Safe. They're so thick you can't feel a thing! "

2 birds...one stone

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Durex Extra Safe. They're so thick you can't feel a thing!

2 birds...one stone"

he's got a FFM arranged? Lucky boy!

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By *ewtoyouXXXMan  over a year ago

rochdale cowboy


"Durex Extra Safe. They're so thick you can't feel a thing! "

It’s all in the head mate use your tongue if your feeling like your going to cum regain control of yourself and then you will b able to go again it’s all about the your movements too and slick u can be

Works for me every time without complaints

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Think of dead kittens throughout, that should take your mind off things.

Think most men worry about it but most wont admit to it "

Ahaha. I just slow down and think of objects in the room, what I'm going to do later or random scenes from movies. Essentially anything to completely take your mind off it. Definitely works for me

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By *rungeguyMan  over a year ago

leeds

It’s a race . You must win lol

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Durex Extra Safe. They're so thick you can't feel a thing!

It’s all in the head mate use your tongue if your feeling like your going to cum regain control of yourself and then you will b able to go again it’s all about the your movements too and slick u can be

Works for me every time without complaints "

I'll just point out that I don't have this issue. Thanks all.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Durex Extra Safe. They're so thick you can't feel a thing!

It’s all in the head mate use your tongue if your feeling like your going to cum regain control of yourself and then you will b able to go again it’s all about the your movements too and slick u can be

Works for me every time without complaints I'll just point out that I don't have this issue. Thanks all. "

Haha yes yes yes we all believe you Pat

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By * Lexi xWoman  over a year ago

stockport

Concentrate on for play......

I must admit though it’s bitter sweet when I guy cums to quick. I love it that he’s that turned on but frustrated as I want more.....

Just more of a challenge to get him hard again.

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By *othicslaveCouple  over a year ago

Norfolk


"Dont let it affect your confidence. Just do other stuff...good advice to concentrate on the lady whilst you calm down. Enjoy it and don't stress about it x"

Agreed

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By *nabelle21Woman  over a year ago

B38


"It’s a race . You must win lol"

I need a head start

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Durex Extra Safe. They're so thick you can't feel a thing!

It’s all in the head mate use your tongue if your feeling like your going to cum regain control of yourself and then you will b able to go again it’s all about the your movements too and slick u can be

Works for me every time without complaints I'll just point out that I don't have this issue. Thanks all.

Haha yes yes yes we all believe you Pat "

shhhhhhh. One day I'll get inside you before I blow my load.

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By *nabelle21Woman  over a year ago

B38


"Durex Extra Safe. They're so thick you can't feel a thing!

It’s all in the head mate use your tongue if your feeling like your going to cum regain control of yourself and then you will b able to go again it’s all about the your movements too and slick u can be

Works for me every time without complaints I'll just point out that I don't have this issue. Thanks all.

Haha yes yes yes we all believe you Pat shhhhhhh. One day I'll get inside you before I blow my load. "

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"An ex of mine would only last about 1 min before cumming not good for me as i love long sex where i can be pleasured for a long time"

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Better to cum quick then have another go than bang away and never cum and the girl getting bored.

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By *uckslut and MCouple  over a year ago

Poole

I was gonna say, I get board if they bang away for too long.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS  over a year ago

Central

Enjoy cuddling, without the sexual stimulation, as lots of us just enjoy a cuddle meet - then any sex is a bonus

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Finger, tongue, finger again, massage her bum cheeks, lick the breasts......then when she’s cum for 5th or 6th time, doesn’t matter if you are quick.

I’ve been getting away with it for years!!

Unless 20 pints...then I go fir ages but need to stop for a wee!!

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By *uckymooMan  over a year ago

Mid-Cheshire


"How long should a man last for in general?

I usually come too quick and feel embarrassed.

Is there a way to build this up as it’s affecting my confidence. "

Well I was the same, I find a safety wank before always saw me ok

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By *nabelle21Woman  over a year ago

B38


"I was gonna say, I get board if they bang away for too long. "

And me

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By *irkydirkyMan  over a year ago

kells


"How long should a man last for in general?

I usually come too quick and feel embarrassed.

Is there a way to build this up as it’s affecting my confidence. "

I come quick and feel great, embrace it.. I seen men here saying they can’t cum for up to 6 hrs hahaha... I know which I’d rather be

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago

I’m overwhelmed with the support from everyone. I really appreciate everyone advice and support which had made me feel much better. A lot of people mention mind control which I think the problem is keep worrying too much but from now I’m going to focus more on the lady then worrying.

Thank you guys. I was worried about receiving a lot negative comments I’m so amazed with the support everyone is showing.

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By *ewtoyouXXXMan  over a year ago

rochdale cowboy


"I’m overwhelmed with the support from everyone. I really appreciate everyone advice and support which had made me feel much better. A lot of people mention mind control which I think the problem is keep worrying too much but from now I’m going to focus more on the lady then worrying.

Thank you guys. I was worried about receiving a lot negative comments I’m so amazed with the support everyone is showing. "

Ha ha glad you feel better you enjoy yourself mate and don’t worry anymore

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 25/05/19 16:34:47]

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Finger, tongue, finger again, massage her bum cheeks, lick the breasts......then when she’s cum for 5th or 6th time, doesn’t matter if you are quick.

I’ve been getting away with it for years!!

Unless 20 pints...then I go fir ages but need to stop for a wee!! "

Sounds like us lol

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By *astyEricMan  over a year ago

Hull

First and foremost, make her happy with tongue fingers toys or whatever, and then, even when you come quick, she probably will still be happy

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By *earboynottinghamMan  over a year ago

Nottingham


"How long should a man last for in general?

I usually come too quick and feel embarrassed.

Is there a way to build this up as it’s affecting my confidence. "

It happens from time to time, so tend to just laugh it off and continue these days rather than getting embarrassed by it!

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I have read online that if you fuck a watermelon it can help you to stay longer due to the melanine that watermelon contains.

They all do that in Japan "

They are a strange lot the Japanese...

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By *uliaChrisCouple  over a year ago

westerham

Ron Jeremy used to think about dead cats apparently.

Also, not sure it’s been said ITT, but making your partner cum before penetration is gentlemanly.

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By *inky-MinxWoman  over a year ago

Grantham

I believe the rules for sex state 15 mins and 23 seconds.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Seriously don't worry about it. As long as your not a one pop and be done for the night then I don't think most woman worry. You could work at getting her off first.

With my fwb I actually encourage him to cum quick the first time, I like that he can't hold back with me, plus he stays hard so I know I can still get plenty from him.

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago


"Seriously don't worry about it. As long as your not a one pop and be done for the night then I don't think most woman worry. You could work at getting her off first.

With my fwb I actually encourage him to cum quick the first time, I like that he can't hold back with me, plus he stays hard so I know I can still get plenty from him. "

Thanks it just first round can’t last for long.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Finger, tongue, finger again, massage her bum cheeks, lick the breasts......then when she’s cum for 5th or 6th time, doesn’t matter if you are quick.

I’ve been getting away with it for years!!

Unless 20 pints...then I go fir ages but need to stop for a wee!!

Sounds like us lol "

And she knows as soon as I cum.....it’s all over....I lose interest straight away, telly on, snack time!!

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By *eorge JetsonMan  over a year ago

Middlesbrough

This is soooooo me (JJ)

I'm a serious sufferer from female premature orgasm.

1-2 minutes and I've cum 3 times and too sensitive to carry on cos it hurts after a few minutes.

I've been known to cum and squirt just on penetration which is actually quite embarrassing since the aforementioned sensitivity is very off-putting when guys want to carry on. xx

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago


"This is soooooo me (JJ)

I'm a serious sufferer from female premature orgasm.

1-2 minutes and I've cum 3 times and too sensitive to carry on cos it hurts after a few minutes.

I've been known to cum and squirt just on penetration which is actually quite embarrassing since the aforementioned sensitivity is very off-putting when guys want to carry on. xx"

I know the feeling of embarrassment, especially when they say you cummed already.

Now I’m just listening to everyone advice and try control my mind. It’s always at the back of my mind I’ma cum quick.

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By *eorge JetsonMan  over a year ago

Middlesbrough


"This is soooooo me (JJ)

I'm a serious sufferer from female premature orgasm.

1-2 minutes and I've cum 3 times and too sensitive to carry on cos it hurts after a few minutes.

I've been known to cum and squirt just on penetration which is actually quite embarrassing since the aforementioned sensitivity is very off-putting when guys want to carry on. xx

I know the feeling of embarrassment, especially when they say you cummed already.

Now I’m just listening to everyone advice and try control my mind. It’s always at the back of my mind I’ma cum quick. "

I've suffered this since I became sexualy active, first few times I put down to nerves of the "first time" and it's gotten slowly worse over the years.

It's definitely a mental thing and not physical cos I can play with my wand and dildos for ages before I cum, but physical penetration, it's literally pump...squirt on MY part.

I've actually had guys wondering what's happened cos I've had to stop them because I've cum so quickly and tightened so much it physically hurts to carry on.

My advice, from a woman with the same problem. Don't worry. Count sheep. Think of old people. Anything that keeps you from going over the edge too quickly. xx

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By *adame 2SwordsWoman  over a year ago

Victoria, London

more than 10 mins I start doing a mental food shopping list!

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By *wogoodtobetrueMan  over a year ago

North East

You must try EMLA cream this stuff is amazing. Tiny little tube (5ml) will cost you about £15 but it’s so worth it. Just massage the size of a small garden pea onto your penis head and any excess rub into your shaft. In 5-10 minutes it’s numb and you lose sensation but sex is still amazing and you can fuck for ages. Online pharmacies sell this. Have fun.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Is it really us guys that are at fault, or is it in fact, the woman?? They take ages to get dressed, take ages to do their make up, take ages queing for the loo, and maybe take too long being satisfied??? Chin up lads, I've solved it! .......

Runs off to hide in the wardrobe!

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I wish I could cum quicker, not all it's cracked up to be being able to last.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I wish I could cum quicker, not all it's cracked up to be being able to last.

"

Yeah you're not wrong

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By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago

After the first load of summing, second round does not seem to be as much cum. Is that normal or does that mean should wait a bit longer?

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By *lorious hole bs16Man  over a year ago

Bristol

I like quick cummers so anyone fancying a gloryhole cum dump..

Open!

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

No such thing as cumming too quick! you chat to the lady before to understand she is looking for. I find most don't want to be pounded like a jack hammer! Some even love a 30 second quickie and the fact you cum quickly turns them on.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I think it's down to good communication. One relationship I was in there was serious lack of talking about sex and this made me last about 2 to 3 mins, she wasn't a very sexual person as well so I could never get any talk about sex out of her, then my next relationship was the opposite, talked openly about sex and what we liked, when we got to the bedroom it was amazing, could go 4 to 5 times in a row and have sessions that would last well over an hour! Iam fully convinced in that it's all down to being open and honest, then you will have the most fun and won't even be thinking about cumming to quick. Keep going op your doing just fine!

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By *eorge JetsonMan  over a year ago

Middlesbrough


"After the first load of summing, second round does not seem to be as much cum. Is that normal or does that mean should wait a bit longer?"

Perfectly normal

The first round is the biggest and strongest amount.

Biologically the first spurt is the biggest and gives you that "cumming" feeling.

The idea is that first pump gives the best amount of sperm and the best chance of getting your lady pregnant.

The rest are the backup and have about 50/50. Thats why the rest of the ejaculation isn't as much.

The 2nd round is pretty much a bonus, very little left and very weak ejaculation (ever noticed how the 2nd time you cum isn't anything like as intense as the first time)

Some men don't even HAVE a 2nd round, just a very dry and sometimes uncomfortable orgasm.

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By *Marvel-Man  over a year ago

In The Gym


"How long should a man last for in general?

I usually come too quick and feel embarrassed.

Is there a way to build this up as it’s affecting my confidence. "

Practice is what I recommend. More you do it the longer you should last.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"How long should a man last for in general?

I usually come too quick and feel embarrassed.

Is there a way to build this up as it’s affecting my confidence. "

About 2 hours of non-stop pumping

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

About 5-10 mins on average.

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By *iner69erMan  over a year ago

inverness

Probably only last a few seconds if you get lucky after years of no success.

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By *ressed4fun03TV/TS  over a year ago

Midlands

I cum really quick too, less than a min with women that turn me on.

Part of the reason i became a sissy i guess, best way for me to satisfy a lady is with my hands or mouth.

Leave the fucking to the real men with stamina

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By *ox123500Man  over a year ago

tilbury

Am the best of my kind

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By *ndtheswingersMan  over a year ago

colchester


"I have read online that if you fuck a watermelon it can help you to stay longer due to the melanine that watermelon contains.

They all do that in Japan "

Make sure you buy the watermelon and take her or him home, Tescos not keen.

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By *iceButtSlimMan  over a year ago

somewhere

I find it's both a mental and physical thing, the longer I go between sex the quicker I will cum, the more sex I have the longer I last. For me I think it's a sensitivity thing, the delay condoms and lube can help. But I have found a way that I stay hard after cumming which can help.

If it's a new scenario or been a bit of break since last playing I will do a lot of foreplay to make sure that the other person is happy before looking to satisfying myself.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I got to put my hands up to this, I cum quite quick but a cock ring helps majorly for me

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By *udistnorthantsMan  over a year ago

Desborough

I used to worry about cumming too quickly esp from a bj until I was given some wonderful advice from a Fab lady friend..."What's the worse that can happen? You cum in my mouth, have a rest..then we get you ready again and go again when hard"

And another Fab lady friend sees it as a huge compliment tgat she's turning me on so much I can't last long.....

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By *nabelle21Woman  over a year ago

B38


"I used to worry about cumming too quickly esp from a bj until I was given some wonderful advice from a Fab lady friend..."What's the worse that can happen? You cum in my mouth, have a rest..then we get you ready again and go again when hard"

And another Fab lady friend sees it as a huge compliment tgat she's turning me on so much I can't last long.....

"

Those ladies seem like my kinda girls...like their style.

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By *nabelle21Woman  over a year ago

B38


"After the first load of summing, second round does not seem to be as much cum. Is that normal or does that mean should wait a bit longer?

Perfectly normal

The first round is the biggest and strongest amount.

Biologically the first spurt is the biggest and gives you that "cumming" feeling.

The idea is that first pump gives the best amount of sperm and the best chance of getting your lady pregnant.

The rest are the backup and have about 50/50. Thats why the rest of the ejaculation isn't as much.

The 2nd round is pretty much a bonus, very little left and very weak ejaculation (ever noticed how the 2nd time you cum isn't anything like as intense as the first time)

Some men don't even HAVE a 2nd round, just a very dry and sometimes uncomfortable orgasm.

"

An uncomfortable orgasm...never thought if this

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By *udistnorthantsMan  over a year ago

Desborough


"I used to worry about cumming too quickly esp from a bj until I was given some wonderful advice from a Fab lady friend..."What's the worse that can happen? You cum in my mouth, have a rest..then we get you ready again and go again when hard"

And another Fab lady friend sees it as a huge compliment tgat she's turning me on so much I can't last long.....

Those ladies seem like my kinda girls...like their style."

Yes they have convinced me it's not an issue to worry about and if I shoot quickly it's all part of the fun

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By *J StathamMan  over a year ago

Manchester

Long love condoms

Jamaican black stone

2 things that you can buy online to keep you going for MUCH MUCH longer

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By *aughty But Nice TwiceWoman  over a year ago

Pontefract

Lol sorry but I will always be wondering if the guy I'm with is thinking about objects in the room or sad things so he dont come... I would rather he came... we chat then start again with me sucking to get him hard again ... seems men always last longer second time around xx or failing that OP have a wank before play x

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I usually find I am fine until the lady says she cumming or starts talking dirty and telling me to fuck harder.

This sends me straight over the edge every time, so I guess you could say it is a mental thing.

Everyone is different so practice and find your happy place.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

It's not hard, simply disconnect your thoughts from how nice it feels to something else like a picture on the wall...or think about something not so nice.

Use your mind to gain control over your body.

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By *ooking4funnowMan  over a year ago

Essex

Its definately a mind control thing, i choose when i want to cum and have complete control have lasted hours before with cig breaks of course . Just takes practice and stamina x

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By *nabelle21Woman  over a year ago

B38

If I'm going to come I dont want to stop it. I want to feel,it in all it's glory.

Guys don't worry about it so much...other methods are available

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By *zzy69Woman  over a year ago

The Lake District

As OP is 25 I would expect he recovers in minutes so my advice would be to get really slick at getting condoms so you can still give the lady some attention ( eg kissing) while you “ reload” .

The emla cream would probably work- it is prescription only- usually used for taking blood from kids . However I think it is oil based so may cause condoms to fail .

Vagisil is similar and easy to buy in supermarkets etc but again oil based.

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By *utsidenakedMan  over a year ago

Dorchester

It's all in the mind. Learn control. It does take years to master it once you have sex is on a different planet

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By *DGF20Man  over a year ago

Dublin

Some people cumming to quick, i have problem if i have to be quick

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