FabSwingers.com > Forums > Swinging Support and Advice > The seriousness of Subs and Doms??
The seriousness of Subs and Doms??
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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So I'm seeing alot more statements on profiles such as "serious doms only" "no vanilla Mr Grey BS" and "far from vanilla, not for the feint hearted" etc etc.. Their profile continues on about how they're a serious Dom/Sub and are only looking for equal Dom/Sub.
Now please mind my ignorance but, what am I missing?? Seriously? Yes I'm new to this site, but not new to sex. Ive done the sub/dom roles with gf's and sexual partners to lets say a amature bondage level. (Ropes,gags and swings) but nothing too serious. I've done it for more fantasy reasons over fetish. For me personally, i have to build up a level of trust and knowledge of a partner before going into those roles (fuck a few times first to establish we have good sexual chemistry)
What I want to know is; What's expected with being a so called "serious Dom/Sub"?? Can anyone give me some examples?
Like I said, ive played before, but not to a serious level (if thats even a thing)
I.e I'd have been thinking about it all day, text said girl that I'm on my way, she greets at the door and as soon as its shut, she's tied and or gagged and is my little fuck toy for the evening, doing what I want, when I want and vice versa if reversed.
But I feel like I'm missing something. It doesn't half make me feel vanilla af when I see girls demanding real men or none vanilla only. I've found a couple of absolutely stunning girls but I wont message because I feel like they'll expect all the toys and another level of experience ready set go.
Sorry for the long winded post, but its been on my mind for a while.
So to sum up, am i a vanilla switch?? Haha |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I wouldn't class my self as a true sub at all but I love hardcore dom/sub roleplay which is very different from merely rough sex and being bullied. There's a huge amount of trust that needs to be built up before going in to breath play, restraint, impact play, degradation etc.
Its a tough one for guys because if I get crass messages from guys saying what they want to do to me I just switch off completely and delete. Yet even my vanilla play is mixed up with elements of bdsm with Mr Foxxx |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I wouldn't class my self as a true sub at all but I love hardcore dom/sub roleplay which is very different from merely rough sex and being bullied. There's a huge amount of trust that needs to be built up before going in to breath play, restraint, impact play, degradation etc.
Its a tough one for guys because if I get crass messages from guys saying what they want to do to me I just switch off completely and delete. Yet even my vanilla play is mixed up with elements of bdsm with Mr Foxxx "
Yeah thats what I'm wondering. Is it common to go straight to hardcore? Or is it expected to be build up first with trust?
I'd love to try going further but for me it would take time to build the trust and knowledge of the other halves tolerance, likes and dislikes. |
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It does take time to build up trust on both sides . you can't just dive in head first into true bdsm . I'm not talking spanking or a bit bondage here .I'm talking hardcore bdsm .Respect limits ,use safe words ,play safe |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Sadly there are no exams to take to be a qualified serious Dom or sub, so it is hard to qualify what they are
I think in any scene there are the newbies, the chancers and the experienced. What people are trying to do is avoid the chancers.
Sometimes people with say something just to get a reply (Of course I am 6 foot tall and hung like a horse) and I think the 'serious' part is meant to try to exclude those that are just trying it on.
Sadly all it does is put off the newbies, makes the experienced question if they are experienced enough and the chancers will just reply with "Of course I am a serious Dom/sub", so it achieves nothing. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I.e I'd have been thinking about it all day, text said girl that I'm on my way, she greets at the door and as soon as its shut, she's tied and or gagged and is my little fuck toy for the evening, doing what I want, when I want and vice versa if reversed.
"
Well this would be the first red flag for me. In my opinion a dom/me doesn't do "what he/she wants, when he/she wants it", and neither should any self respecting human being. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
I think in any scene there are the newbies, the chancers and the experienced. What people are trying to do is avoid the chancers.
Sometimes people with say something just to get a reply (Of course I am 6 foot tall and hung like a horse) and I think the 'serious' part is meant to try to exclude those that are just trying it on.
Sadly all it does is put off the newbies, makes the experienced question if they are experienced enough and the chancers will just reply with "Of course I am a serious Dom/sub", so it achieves nothing."
Very good point. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
Well this would be the first red flag for me. In my opinion a dom/me doesn't do "what he/she wants, when he/she wants it", and neither should any self respecting human being. "
Fair enough, but I was just speaking loosely for the purpose of the question. Granted its probably a bad example as its more fantasy driven with somebody I'd been in a pre existing sexual relationship with and nit the hardcore sub/dom experience I was asking about |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Well this would be the first red flag for me. In my opinion a dom/me doesn't do "what he/she wants, when he/she wants it", and neither should any self respecting human being.
Fair enough, but I was just speaking loosely for the purpose of the question. Granted its probably a bad example as its more fantasy driven with somebody I'd been in a pre existing sexual relationship with and nit the hardcore sub/dom experience I was asking about"
I think that's kind of the point though. However they're wording it on their profile is semantics really, they're essentially saying they're looking for people experienced in this area who understand the basic dynamics. Even with experienced BDSM play there's a whole range of likes/ dislikes so I just see it as a way of crossing the first hurdle in choosing a suitable play partner. |
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It's what *you* want it to be along with your partner of course.
There's an awful lot of superior attitudes in the BDSM community with people claiming that you aren't a proper sub or dom unless x,y or z. Our opinion is that you need to establish some kind of mental connection for sure and build up a relationship no matter how temporary in order to do this at any level.
Contact people, ask what they want, do they want role play, a little light restraint, more intense mental domination etc. First read a couple of non fiction books on the subject.
It's fun, its sexy, its interesting and as long as you follow the safe, sane, consensual mantra you will be ok. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I get messages from folk asking for tips on how to be a dominant or how to meet a submissive. My answer always the same...youll only meet a Dom or sub if you meet them as equals and establish that you both want the same thing.
See it as a shared learning experience. A dominant is not always evident from 1st message nor should he/she try to be one...I'm a firm believer that you will fall in to a category through natural selection, your either one or the other...you can't force to be something your not x |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
I think that's kind of the point though. However they're wording it on their profile is semantics really, they're essentially saying they're looking for people experienced in this area who understand the basic dynamics. Even with experienced BDSM play there's a whole range of likes/ dislikes so I just see it as a way of crossing the first hurdle in choosing a suitable play partner."
You're right I understand that completely |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"It's what *you* want it to be along with your partner of course.
There's an awful lot of superior attitudes in the BDSM community with people claiming that you aren't a proper sub or dom unless x,y or z. Our opinion is that you need to establish some kind of mental connection for sure and build up a relationship no matter how temporary in order to do this at any level.
Contact people, ask what they want, do they want role play, a little light restraint, more intense mental domination etc. First read a couple of non fiction books on the subject.
It's fun, its sexy, its interesting and as long as you follow the safe, sane, consensual mantra you will be ok."
Another good point thank you. Somebody earlier mentioned chancers and for sure there is alot of Big Talk on here. Maybe I just got wrapped up in it because everyone seems to be a experienced pro, where I struggle to even get replies let alone meets. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I get messages from folk asking for tips on how to be a dominant or how to meet a submissive. My answer always the same...youll only meet a Dom or sub if you meet them as equals and establish that you both want the same thing.
See it as a shared learning experience. A dominant is not always evident from 1st message nor should he/she try to be one...I'm a firm believer that you will fall in to a category through natural selection, your either one or the other...you can't force to be something your not x"
Couldn't agree more with this. I'm a big believer in that and would never firce myself or anyone else to do or try anything unless it felt right.
Thats why I'm here, to meet like minded individuals to have fun and maybe learn a few things |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I do think the whole Dom/sub thing is overblown and often taken too seriously.
We're not nearly experienced enough for some, but we sure do have a lot of fun, and isn't that the point? |
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We all have to start somewhere and statements like that are very off putting and can make us newbies feel inferior
Trust takes time to build but once you have established that i am sure it can be a very fulfilling relationship |
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By *ocks99Man
over a year ago
Reading |
The trouble is 50SOG gave people ideas without really giving them a clue how it works in the real world. Using those books as a manual can lead to serious physical and psychological damage. If that is your only knowledge of kink (regardless of how turned on you were) then any experienced player is going to have to teach you better ways..... |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The trouble is 50SOG gave people ideas without really giving them a clue how it works in the real world. Using those books as a manual can lead to serious physical and psychological damage. If that is your only knowledge of kink (regardless of how turned on you were) then any experienced player is going to have to teach you better ways....."
My man, I wouldn't read that tripe if I was stuck on a island. It'll hardly be any use as kindling. I can't even watch the movie. I was saying that I see it mentioned in alot of other profiles, in which case youre right as it probably is dangerous
I really wouldn't say I'm inexperienced. Just curious into the more hardcore/serious side which is where I am new |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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There are very few general rules when it comes to fetish. Bdsm is very individual, what is one persons desire is anothers nightmare. Discover who you are and then move on to other people. Never rush in as there is a very good chance you will screw it up. Respect, tolerance, understanding and above all trust. These things will keep you and those around you safe. Enjoy the learning curve and adapt, because we are all different. |
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By *FFB69Woman
over a year ago
Torfaen/Gwent |
"I do think the whole Dom/sub thing is overblown and often taken too seriously.
We're not nearly experienced enough for some, but we sure do have a lot of fun, and isn't that the point? "
Not really. It’s taken seriously because serious harm can be caused. Mental and physical.
Inexperience can lead to dangerous situations. Doms pushing too far, using rope without knowing the right way to tie, hitting too hard/in the wrong places.
Subs can not understand their own limits, think being sub means doing everything the Dom asks.
If you play at it for fun, good for you but it’s a lifestyle for many. Something taken seriously and with great care. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I do think the whole Dom/sub thing is overblown and often taken too seriously.
We're not nearly experienced enough for some, but we sure do have a lot of fun, and isn't that the point?
Not really. It’s taken seriously because serious harm can be caused. Mental and physical.
Inexperience can lead to dangerous situations. Doms pushing too far, using rope without knowing the right way to tie, hitting too hard/in the wrong places.
Subs can not understand their own limits, think being sub means doing everything the Dom asks.
If you play at it for fun, good for you but it’s a lifestyle for many. Something taken seriously and with great care. "
Church |
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By *FFB69Woman
over a year ago
Torfaen/Gwent |
"I do think the whole Dom/sub thing is overblown and often taken too seriously.
We're not nearly experienced enough for some, but we sure do have a lot of fun, and isn't that the point?
Not really. It’s taken seriously because serious harm can be caused. Mental and physical.
Inexperience can lead to dangerous situations. Doms pushing too far, using rope without knowing the right way to tie, hitting too hard/in the wrong places.
Subs can not understand their own limits, think being sub means doing everything the Dom asks.
If you play at it for fun, good for you but it’s a lifestyle for many. Something taken seriously and with great care.
Church"
Church? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I do think the whole Dom/sub thing is overblown and often taken too seriously.
We're not nearly experienced enough for some, but we sure do have a lot of fun, and isn't that the point?
Not really. It’s taken seriously because serious harm can be caused. Mental and physical.
Inexperience can lead to dangerous situations. Doms pushing too far, using rope without knowing the right way to tie, hitting too hard/in the wrong places.
Subs can not understand their own limits, think being sub means doing everything the Dom asks.
If you play at it for fun, good for you but it’s a lifestyle for many. Something taken seriously and with great care.
Church
Church? "
Slang for truth |
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By *FFB69Woman
over a year ago
Torfaen/Gwent |
"I do think the whole Dom/sub thing is overblown and often taken too seriously.
We're not nearly experienced enough for some, but we sure do have a lot of fun, and isn't that the point?
Not really. It’s taken seriously because serious harm can be caused. Mental and physical.
Inexperience can lead to dangerous situations. Doms pushing too far, using rope without knowing the right way to tie, hitting too hard/in the wrong places.
Subs can not understand their own limits, think being sub means doing everything the Dom asks.
If you play at it for fun, good for you but it’s a lifestyle for many. Something taken seriously and with great care.
Church
Church?
Slang for truth"
Do you mean preach? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I do think the whole Dom/sub thing is overblown and often taken too seriously.
We're not nearly experienced enough for some, but we sure do have a lot of fun, and isn't that the point?
Not really. It’s taken seriously because serious harm can be caused. Mental and physical.
Inexperience can lead to dangerous situations. Doms pushing too far, using rope without knowing the right way to tie, hitting too hard/in the wrong places.
Subs can not understand their own limits, think being sub means doing everything the Dom asks.
If you play at it for fun, good for you but it’s a lifestyle for many. Something taken seriously and with great care.
Church
Church?
Slang for truth
Do you mean preach? "
Not in the slightest, I agree fully with your comment. |
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By *FFB69Woman
over a year ago
Torfaen/Gwent |
"I do think the whole Dom/sub thing is overblown and often taken too seriously.
We're not nearly experienced enough for some, but we sure do have a lot of fun, and isn't that the point?
Not really. It’s taken seriously because serious harm can be caused. Mental and physical.
Inexperience can lead to dangerous situations. Doms pushing too far, using rope without knowing the right way to tie, hitting too hard/in the wrong places.
Subs can not understand their own limits, think being sub means doing everything the Dom asks.
If you play at it for fun, good for you but it’s a lifestyle for many. Something taken seriously and with great care.
Church
Church?
Slang for truth
Do you mean preach?
Not in the slightest, I agree fully with your comment."
No I mean do you mean “preach” as opposed to “church”. Preach is usually slang for agreeing with someone/thinking someone is being truthful.
I’ve never heard “church” used that way. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I do think the whole Dom/sub thing is overblown and often taken too seriously.
We're not nearly experienced enough for some, but we sure do have a lot of fun, and isn't that the point?
Not really. It’s taken seriously because serious harm can be caused. Mental and physical.
Inexperience can lead to dangerous situations. Doms pushing too far, using rope without knowing the right way to tie, hitting too hard/in the wrong places.
Subs can not understand their own limits, think being sub means doing everything the Dom asks.
If you play at it for fun, good for you but it’s a lifestyle for many. Something taken seriously and with great care.
Church
Church?
Slang for truth
Do you mean preach?
Not in the slightest, I agree fully with your comment.
No I mean do you mean “preach” as opposed to “church”. Preach is usually slang for agreeing with someone/thinking someone is being truthful.
I’ve never heard “church” used that way. "
Oh I see. I've never heard preach so that makes us even |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I hope that people can try and understand it is the state mind that makes the difference between a true fetishists and those that play games. There is nothing wrong with either side of the equation but a difference there most certainly is. |
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By *FFB69Woman
over a year ago
Torfaen/Gwent |
"I hope that people can try and understand it is the state mind that makes the difference between a true fetishists and those that play games. There is nothing wrong with either side of the equation but a difference there most certainly is."
Very true. I think that when people say they are looking for a “serious” Dom/sub they simply mean someone who understands he lifestyle. Is not doing it “just for fun” or as a laugh.
It is fun, of course it is. But it’s also very serious.
I take being tied up or flogged seriously because it can cause harm if done incorrectly. So I only do those things with someone I have built trust with and who I believe takes it seriously.
Certainly not someone who has just been thinking about it all day so decides to send a text and then do what they want/when they want with me |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
The thing is OP there is no right way to BDSM but there are plenty of wrong ways in the hands of those that don't understand it or think they do from reading those books or watching a lot of BDSM porn - the ONLY right way is that agreed between two (or more) informed and consenting individuals.
What may work for one person might not work for another and may even vary from scene to scene between two individuals.
As with any relationship though communication is key - understanding and agreeing what you both want, and just as importantly don't want, is key.
I don't by any means profess to being experienced but would recommend books like Screw The Roses Bring Me The Thorns or SM101 - or getting along to a local munch and talking to others if you're looking to explore the BDSM lifestyle in more depth. |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
"I hope that people can try and understand it is the state mind that makes the difference between a true fetishists and those that play games. There is nothing wrong with either side of the equation but a difference there most certainly is.
Very true. I think that when people say they are looking for a “serious” Dom/sub they simply mean someone who understands he lifestyle. Is not doing it “just for fun” or as a laugh.
It is fun, of course it is. But it’s also very serious.
I take being tied up or flogged seriously because it can cause harm if done incorrectly. So I only do those things with someone I have built trust with and who I believe takes it seriously.
Certainly not someone who has just been thinking about it all day so decides to send a text and then do what they want/when they want with me "
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I hope that people can try and understand it is the state mind that makes the difference between a true fetishists and those that play games. There is nothing wrong with either side of the equation but a difference there most certainly is.
Very true. I think that when people say they are looking for a “serious” Dom/sub they simply mean someone who understands he lifestyle. Is not doing it “just for fun” or as a laugh.
It is fun, of course it is. But it’s also very serious.
I take being tied up or flogged seriously because it can cause harm if done incorrectly. So I only do those things with someone I have built trust with and who I believe takes it seriously.
Certainly not someone who has just been thinking about it all day so decides to send a text and then do what they want/when they want with me "
And that is a very sensible approach to it. I would not dream of doing anything with anyone unless I had a conversation about who they are and what the like and don't like. D/s and sadio-masochism are not at all the same and in turn are different for everyone. Its all about pleasure, the question is how do you achieve it.Unfortunately that is one very complicated question! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Some really good posts at the end there, thank you everyone. It was just something I was more curious about more than actually considering doing it. I enjoy playing like everyone, but like others mentioned, for the pros its a way of life for many and they take it very seriously with great care and attention to detail. Its never something a curious newb should just try for a laugh. |
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This whole area is a mine field. It's very much a matter of horses for courses. Personally when people ask for 'a real dom/sub' etc I asume they are asking from a more technical/experiance/attitude aspect? I.e. have they experiance in this play, do they understand risk factors regarding areas of the body with impact play, do they play with consideration with SSC etc? Also some more extreme/technical aspects of say BDSM need experiance/training to be conducted safely. As to the emotional/chemistry dynamic I don't think people can really demand a 'real' anything, this is a subjective thing to a certain extent. Not all doms/subs are the same and/or work well with each other. Doms/subs are also not instantly obvious or even the same in different dynamics. The only way you'll really know if it's going to work is to build that rapport and communicate (communication is more than just verbal/writen).
I would also say we should examine who is asking for a 'real' this or that? Do they know what actually what and what they need to contribute to the dynamic? It's all well and good saying I want a 'real' something but if you are asking it's important you can communicate what exactly what your after. Whether it be communicating in your profile or when you've started talking to someone. It is a two way street. |
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"It's what *you* want it to be along with your partner of course.
There's an awful lot of superior attitudes in the BDSM community with people claiming that you aren't a proper sub or dom unless x,y or z. Our opinion is that you need to establish some kind of mental connection for sure and build up a relationship no matter how temporary in order to do this at any level.
Contact people, ask what they want, do they want role play, a little light restraint, more intense mental domination etc. First read a couple of non fiction books on the subject.
It's fun, its sexy, its interesting and as long as you follow the safe, sane, consensual mantra you will be ok." Agree with all of this. There's no substitute for the contracting and negotiation phases of a BDSM relationship; people who use buzz words or shorthand to try and skip the individual negotiation and contracting phases are elevating the level of risk considerably. Doesn't mean it won't end well, but the level of risk and the consequences is higher than I would contemplate.
Carter |
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I have never and would never actively seek out a Dom or sub in those terms. The very idea is ridiculous that you can simply order up someone who fits the bill for a few hours play. sub/Dom dynamics require trust, respect and understanding built up over time. When someone mails me saying they're an experienced Dom or sub, it puts me off right away. Everyone is a person first and foremost, remember that and, if you're lucky, you might meet someone who will happen to become your Dom/Dommé/sub/switch partner |
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By *alcon43Woman
over a year ago
Paisley |
"
I.e I'd have been thinking about it all day, text said girl that I'm on my way, she greets at the door and as soon as its shut, she's tied and or gagged and is my little fuck toy for the evening, doing what I want, when I want and vice versa if reversed.
Well this would be the first red flag for me. In my opinion a dom/me doesn't do "what he/she wants, when he/she wants it", and neither should any self respecting human being. "
Exactly. The Dom should’ve been asking the sub what she likes and doesn’t like. It’s about building a rapport. I am sub but can switch.
I have played with a Dom on a first meet and had a great time but we chatted it through first. There are many levels and different aspects to the D/s relationship. I’m into sensory deprivation and sensual stimulation. More about being tactile, orgasm control, forced orgasm, some pain and pleasure. Others want their arses spanked until they’re red or whipped with a crop antil their arse is stripey. Whilst I enjoy the pain from nipple clamps extreme pain doesn’t do it for me.
I want to find that head space (sub space) which is like an orgasm for the head. No penetrative sex required but can be awesome at the end of a session for both partners.
I can tell by chatting if someone knows what they are talking about when it comes to BDSM. I certainly don’t want to be trussed up and used as anyone as a ‘toy’ but then another sub might enjoy it.
Don’t be put off by anyone but learn as much as you can. Go to kink nights, join a fetish site and go to munches (regular fet socials). Communication is the key and no two subs or Doms/Dommes are the same.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We are a dom sub couple .. we don’t take ourselves too seriously on here ..we are here for fun , we are just normal people too ! our whole dynamic is based on our mental connection without it play time can’t be what it is .. my master can blow my mind without even touching me and I’m ready to explode .. every dom and sub is different but all genuinely dominant men/women who have a sub have a true understanding of the gift of submission and they cherish and respect it and fully accept the sub is in control and chooses to give that power to them .. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Very good posts in this thread....
But I would like to add if you choose to go down this path be prepared to devote a extreme amount of time to establishing a mental connection with your sub.
Dom/Sub relationships tend to be extremely time consuming... so if you’re just looking for a quick hook up , I would suggest just adding elements of bdsm to your normal sex life...
The most important thing books or workshops don’t teach you about bdsm is aftercare of your sub ... commonly known as sub drop...
In my humble opinion , Figuring out what your sub expects as proper aftercare first then Working your way backwards is the best way.
Good luck ... if you find the right dynamic a Dom/Sub relationship can be very rewarding for both of you... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So I'm seeing alot more statements on profiles such as "serious doms only" "no vanilla Mr Grey BS" and "far from vanilla, not for the feint hearted" etc etc.. Their profile continues on about how they're a serious Dom/Sub and are only looking for equal Dom/Sub.
Now please mind my ignorance but, what am I missing?? Seriously? Yes I'm new to this site, but not new to sex. Ive done the sub/dom roles with gf's and sexual partners to lets say a amature bondage level. (Ropes,gags and swings) but nothing too serious. I've done it for more fantasy reasons over fetish. For me personally, i have to build up a level of trust and knowledge of a partner before going into those roles (fuck a few times first to establish we have good sexual chemistry)
What I want to know is; What's expected with being a so called "serious Dom/Sub"?? Can anyone give me some examples?
Like I said, ive played before, but not to a serious level (if thats even a thing)
I.e I'd have been thinking about it all day, text said girl that I'm on my way, she greets at the door and as soon as its shut, she's tied and or gagged and is my little fuck toy for the evening, doing what I want, when I want and vice versa if reversed.
But I feel like I'm missing something. It doesn't half make me feel vanilla af when I see girls demanding real men or none vanilla only. I've found a couple of absolutely stunning girls but I wont message because I feel like they'll expect all the toys and another level of experience ready set go.
Sorry for the long winded post, but its been on my mind for a while.
So to sum up, am i a vanilla switch?? Haha"
Label smehbals! I just do what I want and do t try and pigeon hole myself! Someone told me what I was the other day, really? Cheers lady! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think that especially from a sub point of view, when they ask for an experienced Dom they basically want to eliminate guys who think that smacking a woman about is being Dom!
Some guys out there think that being Dom is pulling your hair out by the roots, slapping you about and fucking you as hard as they can.
Couldn't be further from the truth!
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Going back to the how serious point.
Some years ago I was chatting to a lady from Holland and it turned out she was a pro domme. I thought as you do ok and... then she said she was flown 4 times a year to New York first class to perform at a club there...I had and have no reason to disbelieve her and so the answer to the OP is some are deeply serious indeed. |
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