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Genetics vs transgender
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"I'm all for gender as a spectrum, but i have absolutely no time for 'gender fluid' toss pots." Obviously you're not all for gender spectrum then... Pretty sure you could of chose a better term than toss pots aswell to be honest!! | |||
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"I'm all for gender as a spectrum, but i have absolutely no time for 'gender fluid' toss pots. Obviously you're not all for gender spectrum then... Pretty sure you could of chose a better term than toss pots aswell to be honest!!" Don't get your point sorry. I gave examples of a male spectrum. If one of them was gender fluid then they wouldn't want to be acknowledged as a man. | |||
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"I'm all for gender as a spectrum, but i have absolutely no time for 'gender fluid' toss pots. I also think it's insulting to trans people to even put them in the same category, they are essentially opposite beliefs. Society needs all sorts of people to function, actually it doesn't. It's more factually accurate to say that societies that are liberal and allow individuals (that aren't hurting anyone) to flourish end up richer for it, literally richer. Most people would rather live in a wealthy country than a poor one. This is in no small part because a small proportion of people generate most the wealth and innovation in a country and they tend to be a bit odd. I can speak better about masculinity; there are your uber macho lumberjacks, beer swelling, loud farting types and your quiet, computer geeks that look like they'd struggle to make love to their right hand. Both are valuable in society, both are men. It's incredibly unhelpful to start inventing new categories that don't exist, people need to grow the fuck up and deal with the complexity of a spectrum rather than desperately hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in. " Your statements are completely contradictory. In the last paragraph you seem to imply that "gender" doesn't have to dictate your personality, traits or interests as person. I think what you're trying to get across is your belief that there are *gender stereotypes* in society which don't need to be adhered to in order for you to authentically be your gender. This is called *gender expression*. This is the equivalent of a man who (for a simple example) cries at the drop of a hat and who likes to wear pink, and a woman who likes to wear masculine clothing and cut their hair short. Society tells us what is masculine and feminine and gives inanimate objects, colours, clothing, interests and even emotions a "gender". This doesn't have to mean anything about your gender itself. The two accepted genders are male and female and most people think these are the only two *gender identities* and that you are biologically born into either. This idea is called *gender binary*. *Gender spectrum* implies the idea that gender is NOT binary, it is not necessarily set to two genders and is not limited to set values and can vary along a continuum. You can find yourself at any place along it and not be "set into a box" in terms of what gender you feel you are. You can indentify as one, both, more or vary between at any stage. Some also consider themselves *agender*, someone who doesn't identify with any gender at all. This doesn't have to be linked to the biological sex you were born as. This also encompasses trans people who identify with a gender not the same as the one they were biologically born with. For most, gender identity is about how you personally identify yourself as. It has no relation to biological sex/sex at birth. Some people's gender identity is the same as their biological sex. These people are *CIS*. For you to say: "I am all for the gender spectrum" "we need to deal with the complexity of a spectrum instead of hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in" "people need to grow the fuck up" and then go on to say that : "I have absolutely no time for gender fluid toss pots" "It's insulting to put trans people in the same category as they are essentially opposite beliefs" demonstrates that you are contradicting the terms that you're choosing to use and imply, and are probably not as open minded or as thoroughly considered on what your opinions actually, are as you thought. Either you believe In the "complexity" of the gender spectrum and we should "grow the fuck up" and stop trying to fit everyone into gender boxes (therefore accepting gender fluidity), or you believe in only two genders (whether born into them biologically or not) that the "gender fluid are toss pots and an insult to trans people". Which is it? | |||
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"I'm all for gender as a spectrum, but i have absolutely no time for 'gender fluid' toss pots. I also think it's insulting to trans people to even put them in the same category, they are essentially opposite beliefs. Society needs all sorts of people to function, actually it doesn't. It's more factually accurate to say that societies that are liberal and allow individuals (that aren't hurting anyone) to flourish end up richer for it, literally richer. Most people would rather live in a wealthy country than a poor one. This is in no small part because a small proportion of people generate most the wealth and innovation in a country and they tend to be a bit odd. I can speak better about masculinity; there are your uber macho lumberjacks, beer swelling, loud farting types and your quiet, computer geeks that look like they'd struggle to make love to their right hand. Both are valuable in society, both are men. It's incredibly unhelpful to start inventing new categories that don't exist, people need to grow the fuck up and deal with the complexity of a spectrum rather than desperately hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in. Your statements are completely contradictory. In the last paragraph you seem to imply that "gender" doesn't have to dictate your personality, traits or interests as person. I think what you're trying to get across is your belief that there are *gender stereotypes* in society which don't need to be adhered to in order for you to authentically be your gender. This is called *gender expression*. This is the equivalent of a man who (for a simple example) cries at the drop of a hat and who likes to wear pink, and a woman who likes to wear masculine clothing and cut their hair short. Society tells us what is masculine and feminine and gives inanimate objects, colours, clothing, interests and even emotions a "gender". This doesn't have to mean anything about your gender itself. The two accepted genders are male and female and most people think these are the only two *gender identities* and that you are biologically born into either. This idea is called *gender binary*. *Gender spectrum* implies the idea that gender is NOT binary, it is not necessarily set to two genders and is not limited to set values and can vary along a continuum. You can find yourself at any place along it and not be "set into a box" in terms of what gender you feel you are. You can indentify as one, both, more or vary between at any stage. Some also consider themselves *agender*, someone who doesn't identify with any gender at all. This doesn't have to be linked to the biological sex you were born as. This also encompasses trans people who identify with a gender not the same as the one they were biologically born with. For most, gender identity is about how you personally identify yourself as. It has no relation to biological sex/sex at birth. Some people's gender identity is the same as their biological sex. These people are *CIS*. For you to say: "I am all for the gender spectrum" "we need to deal with the complexity of a spectrum instead of hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in" "people need to grow the fuck up" and then go on to say that : "I have absolutely no time for gender fluid toss pots" "It's insulting to put trans people in the same category as they are essentially opposite beliefs" demonstrates that you are contradicting the terms that you're choosing to use and imply, and are probably not as open minded or as thoroughly considered on what your opinions actually, are as you thought. Either you believe In the "complexity" of the gender spectrum and we should "grow the fuck up" and stop trying to fit everyone into gender boxes (therefore accepting gender fluidity), or you believe in only two genders (whether born into them biologically or not) that the "gender fluid are toss pots and an insult to trans people". Which is it?" This! 
I actually thought it was just me that could see a contradiction going on there.. I just couldn't find a way of getting the point across  | |||
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"I'm all for gender as a spectrum, but i have absolutely no time for 'gender fluid' toss pots. I also think it's insulting to trans people to even put them in the same category, they are essentially opposite beliefs. Society needs all sorts of people to function, actually it doesn't. It's more factually accurate to say that societies that are liberal and allow individuals (that aren't hurting anyone) to flourish end up richer for it, literally richer. Most people would rather live in a wealthy country than a poor one. This is in no small part because a small proportion of people generate most the wealth and innovation in a country and they tend to be a bit odd. I can speak better about masculinity; there are your uber macho lumberjacks, beer swelling, loud farting types and your quiet, computer geeks that look like they'd struggle to make love to their right hand. Both are valuable in society, both are men. It's incredibly unhelpful to start inventing new categories that don't exist, people need to grow the fuck up and deal with the complexity of a spectrum rather than desperately hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in. Your statements are completely contradictory. In the last paragraph you seem to imply that "gender" doesn't have to dictate your personality, traits or interests as person. I think what you're trying to get across is your belief that there are *gender stereotypes* in society which don't need to be adhered to in order for you to authentically be your gender. This is called *gender expression*. This is the equivalent of a man who (for a simple example) cries at the drop of a hat and who likes to wear pink, and a woman who likes to wear masculine clothing and cut their hair short. Society tells us what is masculine and feminine and gives inanimate objects, colours, clothing, interests and even emotions a "gender". This doesn't have to mean anything about your gender itself. The two accepted genders are male and female and most people think these are the only two *gender identities* and that you are biologically born into either. This idea is called *gender binary*. *Gender spectrum* implies the idea that gender is NOT binary, it is not necessarily set to two genders and is not limited to set values and can vary along a continuum. You can find yourself at any place along it and not be "set into a box" in terms of what gender you feel you are. You can indentify as one, both, more or vary between at any stage. Some also consider themselves *agender*, someone who doesn't identify with any gender at all. This doesn't have to be linked to the biological sex you were born as. This also encompasses trans people who identify with a gender not the same as the one they were biologically born with. For most, gender identity is about how you personally identify yourself as. It has no relation to biological sex/sex at birth. Some people's gender identity is the same as their biological sex. These people are *CIS*. For you to say: "I am all for the gender spectrum" "we need to deal with the complexity of a spectrum instead of hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in" "people need to grow the fuck up" and then go on to say that : "I have absolutely no time for gender fluid toss pots" "It's insulting to put trans people in the same category as they are essentially opposite beliefs" demonstrates that you are contradicting the terms that you're choosing to use and imply, and are probably not as open minded or as thoroughly considered on what your opinions actually, are as you thought. Either you believe In the "complexity" of the gender spectrum and we should "grow the fuck up" and stop trying to fit everyone into gender boxes (therefore accepting gender fluidity), or you believe in only two genders (whether born into them biologically or not) that the "gender fluid are toss pots and an insult to trans people". Which is it? This!
I actually thought it was just me that could see a contradiction going on there.. I just couldn't find a way of getting the point across "This is what happens when people try and express their viewpoints with specific terminology that they clearly do not understand, and misuse to the detriment of their own argument. Also, calling the gender fluid "toss pots" and an "insult" is incredibly disrespectful and not needed. | |||
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"I still believe you are biologically the sex you are born as. " Since the medical community can barely manage to define what 'biological sex' is, perhaps you could enlighten everyone? | |||
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" I can speak better about masculinity; there are your uber macho lumberjacks, beer swelling, loud farting types and your quiet, computer geeks that look like they'd struggle to make love to their right hand. Both are valuable in society, both are men. It's incredibly unhelpful to start inventing new categories that don't exist, people need to grow the fuck up and deal with the complexity of a spectrum rather than desperately hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in. " Liking computers doesn't make someone less of a man or a different type of man to someone who likes cutting down trees and farting. I don't think you understand what gender is, to be honest. If someone identifies as a man then they are a man. Their hobbies have nothing to do with their gender identity. | |||
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"Perhaps you need to offer yourself to medical science ....so there can be some evidence on this theory .... Im sure there would be a lot of interest." I already am risking kidney failure, amongst a host of other increased risks. On a plus side my chances of prostate cancer are slim | |||
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"I'm all for gender as a spectrum, but i have absolutely no time for 'gender fluid' toss pots. I also think it's insulting to trans people to even put them in the same category, they are essentially opposite beliefs. Society needs all sorts of people to function, actually it doesn't. It's more factually accurate to say that societies that are liberal and allow individuals (that aren't hurting anyone) to flourish end up richer for it, literally richer. Most people would rather live in a wealthy country than a poor one. This is in no small part because a small proportion of people generate most the wealth and innovation in a country and they tend to be a bit odd. I can speak better about masculinity; there are your uber macho lumberjacks, beer swelling, loud farting types and your quiet, computer geeks that look like they'd struggle to make love to their right hand. Both are valuable in society, both are men. It's incredibly unhelpful to start inventing new categories that don't exist, people need to grow the fuck up and deal with the complexity of a spectrum rather than desperately hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in. " Fuck! Agree | |||
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"The way I see it, DNA, genes, chromosomes control every aspect of our lives. From hair colour to personality, the jobs certain people are suited too, the way we act. At some point in the womb, these building blocks are all put together & sometimes they don't fall into place, what is 'deemed' the correct order. Children are born with invisible issues, often unoticed as not physically obvious and not diagnosed until much later in life. I don't see this subject any differently to a recognised medical condition such as ASD or dyslexia. You have no control over your genetics, being blind isn't a choice, being trans isn't a choice. I accept people as I find them, individuals. " Nicely put. | |||
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" I can speak better about masculinity; there are your uber macho lumberjacks, beer swelling, loud farting types and your quiet, computer geeks that look like they'd struggle to make love to their right hand. Both are valuable in society, both are men. It's incredibly unhelpful to start inventing new categories that don't exist, people need to grow the fuck up and deal with the complexity of a spectrum rather than desperately hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in. Liking computers doesn't make someone less of a man or a different type of man to someone who likes cutting down trees and farting. I don't think you understand what gender is, to be honest. If someone identifies as a man then they are a man. Their hobbies have nothing to do with their gender identity." So that would be mean that mind could decide which sex you wanna be. Mind doesn't do this things. Nature does. | |||
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" So that would be mean that mind could decide which sex you wanna be. Mind doesn't do this things. Nature does. " Your mind is made by nature. Therefore if your mind is deciding, then nature is deciding. | |||
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" I can speak better about masculinity; there are your uber macho lumberjacks, beer swelling, loud farting types and your quiet, computer geeks that look like they'd struggle to make love to their right hand. Both are valuable in society, both are men. It's incredibly unhelpful to start inventing new categories that don't exist, people need to grow the fuck up and deal with the complexity of a spectrum rather than desperately hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in. Liking computers doesn't make someone less of a man or a different type of man to someone who likes cutting down trees and farting. I don't think you understand what gender is, to be honest. If someone identifies as a man then they are a man. Their hobbies have nothing to do with their gender identity. So that would be mean that mind could decide which sex you wanna be. Mind doesn't do this things. Nature does. " As I always seem to end up saying on threads like this, there is a difference between biological sex and gender. No, a woman can't just decide to grow a penis or change DNA (change biological sex). Yes, a woman can feel like they more fit society's/their own notions of masculinity than femininity, and identify more as a man than a woman (adopt a different gender). | |||
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"I'm all for gender as a spectrum, but i have absolutely no time for 'gender fluid' toss pots. I also think it's insulting to trans people to even put them in the same category, they are essentially opposite beliefs. Society needs all sorts of people to function, actually it doesn't. It's more factually accurate to say that societies that are liberal and allow individuals (that aren't hurting anyone) to flourish end up richer for it, literally richer. Most people would rather live in a wealthy country than a poor one. This is in no small part because a small proportion of people generate most the wealth and innovation in a country and they tend to be a bit odd. I can speak better about masculinity; there are your uber macho lumberjacks, beer swelling, loud farting types and your quiet, computer geeks that look like they'd struggle to make love to their right hand. Both are valuable in society, both are men. It's incredibly unhelpful to start inventing new categories that don't exist, people need to grow the fuck up and deal with the complexity of a spectrum rather than desperately hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in. Your statements are completely contradictory. In the last paragraph you seem to imply that "gender" doesn't have to dictate your personality, traits or interests as person. I think what you're trying to get across is your belief that there are *gender stereotypes* in society which don't need to be adhered to in order for you to authentically be your gender. This is called *gender expression*. This is the equivalent of a man who (for a simple example) cries at the drop of a hat and who likes to wear pink, and a woman who likes to wear masculine clothing and cut their hair short. Society tells us what is masculine and feminine and gives inanimate objects, colours, clothing, interests and even emotions a "gender". This doesn't have to mean anything about your gender itself. The two accepted genders are male and female and most people think these are the only two *gender identities* and that you are biologically born into either. This idea is called *gender binary*. *Gender spectrum* implies the idea that gender is NOT binary, it is not necessarily set to two genders and is not limited to set values and can vary along a continuum. You can find yourself at any place along it and not be "set into a box" in terms of what gender you feel you are. You can indentify as one, both, more or vary between at any stage. Some also consider themselves *agender*, someone who doesn't identify with any gender at all. This doesn't have to be linked to the biological sex you were born as. This also encompasses trans people who identify with a gender not the same as the one they were biologically born with. For most, gender identity is about how you personally identify yourself as. It has no relation to biological sex/sex at birth. Some people's gender identity is the same as their biological sex. These people are *CIS*. For you to say: "I am all for the gender spectrum" "we need to deal with the complexity of a spectrum instead of hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in" "people need to grow the fuck up" and then go on to say that : "I have absolutely no time for gender fluid toss pots" "It's insulting to put trans people in the same category as they are essentially opposite beliefs" demonstrates that you are contradicting the terms that you're choosing to use and imply, and are probably not as open minded or as thoroughly considered on what your opinions actually, are as you thought. Either you believe In the "complexity" of the gender spectrum and we should "grow the fuck up" and stop trying to fit everyone into gender boxes (therefore accepting gender fluidity), or you believe in only two genders (whether born into them biologically or not) that the "gender fluid are toss pots and an insult to trans people". Which is it?" Thanks for your points, but my points are in no way contradictory. I think we're getting confused about gender as a spectrum here. The way i was using it means exactly what the example i gave means, there are two categories that 99%+ people fit into. I appreciate there are intersex people and they do fall outside what I'm saying. There are only two catgeories but they are broad categories. I gave specific examples of how two very different men are in the same category. I would encourage you to listen to Thaddeus Russell on YouTube and his interview on the Joe Rogan Experience on gender. He supports gender fluidity and the logical conclusion of this view is, for example, that homosexuals can't be masculine. I totally reject such a view point and consider it the height of stupidity. It's based on a very narrow definition of two genders that a lot of people obviously don't fit into, this is a strawman. Trans people recognise the importance of gender and hence go to great lengths to change their gender. Gender fluid people reject the importance of gender and demand that they need not be acknowledged in either category, hence their preference for gender neutral pronouns, whilst trans people generally want the pronoun of their transitioned sex. | |||
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"There are many types of chromosomal abnormalities. .. too many to discuss .... " Possibly, but here's an issue I have. Chromosomal variance is what's being described, not abnormality. Describing chromosomal variance as an abnormality ushers in, via the laboratory door, the idea of normality, which is antithetical to the spectral approach the OP was advocating. | |||
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" I can speak better about masculinity; there are your uber macho lumberjacks, beer swelling, loud farting types and your quiet, computer geeks that look like they'd struggle to make love to their right hand. Both are valuable in society, both are men. It's incredibly unhelpful to start inventing new categories that don't exist, people need to grow the fuck up and deal with the complexity of a spectrum rather than desperately hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in. Liking computers doesn't make someone less of a man or a different type of man to someone who likes cutting down trees and farting. I don't think you understand what gender is, to be honest. If someone identifies as a man then they are a man. Their hobbies have nothing to do with their gender identity." There is a stereotype of the male epitome and female epitome. A computer geek is further from the male one than a lumberjack, if we can't agree on that then there's no point talking. I know exactly what gender fluid is, i have researched it alot, some people are trying to frame the dicussion in a way that makes it sound like a nice progressive thing when actually it's a horrible ideology. There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. That is why identifying as something does not make it true. Needless to say that women will generally be far more unhappy about the implications of gender fludiity than men, once they actually realise what they are. | |||
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"I'm all for gender as a spectrum, but i have absolutely no time for 'gender fluid' toss pots. I also think it's insulting to trans people to even put them in the same category, they are essentially opposite beliefs. Society needs all sorts of people to function, actually it doesn't. It's more factually accurate to say that societies that are liberal and allow individuals (that aren't hurting anyone) to flourish end up richer for it, literally richer. Most people would rather live in a wealthy country than a poor one. This is in no small part because a small proportion of people generate most the wealth and innovation in a country and they tend to be a bit odd. I can speak better about masculinity; there are your uber macho lumberjacks, beer swelling, loud farting types and your quiet, computer geeks that look like they'd struggle to make love to their right hand. Both are valuable in society, both are men. It's incredibly unhelpful to start inventing new categories that don't exist, people need to grow the fuck up and deal with the complexity of a spectrum rather than desperately hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in. Your statements are completely contradictory. In the last paragraph you seem to imply that "gender" doesn't have to dictate your personality, traits or interests as person. I think what you're trying to get across is your belief that there are *gender stereotypes* in society which don't need to be adhered to in order for you to authentically be your gender. This is called *gender expression*. This is the equivalent of a man who (for a simple example) cries at the drop of a hat and who likes to wear pink, and a woman who likes to wear masculine clothing and cut their hair short. Society tells us what is masculine and feminine and gives inanimate objects, colours, clothing, interests and even emotions a "gender". This doesn't have to mean anything about your gender itself. The two accepted genders are male and female and most people think these are the only two *gender identities* and that you are biologically born into either. This idea is called *gender binary*. *Gender spectrum* implies the idea that gender is NOT binary, it is not necessarily set to two genders and is not limited to set values and can vary along a continuum. You can find yourself at any place along it and not be "set into a box" in terms of what gender you feel you are. You can indentify as one, both, more or vary between at any stage. Some also consider themselves *agender*, someone who doesn't identify with any gender at all. This doesn't have to be linked to the biological sex you were born as. This also encompasses trans people who identify with a gender not the same as the one they were biologically born with. For most, gender identity is about how you personally identify yourself as. It has no relation to biological sex/sex at birth. Some people's gender identity is the same as their biological sex. These people are *CIS*. For you to say: "I am all for the gender spectrum" "we need to deal with the complexity of a spectrum instead of hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in" "people need to grow the fuck up" and then go on to say that : "I have absolutely no time for gender fluid toss pots" "It's insulting to put trans people in the same category as they are essentially opposite beliefs" demonstrates that you are contradicting the terms that you're choosing to use and imply, and are probably not as open minded or as thoroughly considered on what your opinions actually, are as you thought. Either you believe In the "complexity" of the gender spectrum and we should "grow the fuck up" and stop trying to fit everyone into gender boxes (therefore accepting gender fluidity), or you believe in only two genders (whether born into them biologically or not) that the "gender fluid are toss pots and an insult to trans people". Which is it? Thanks for your points, but my points are in no way contradictory. I think we're getting confused about gender as a spectrum here. The way i was using it means exactly what the example i gave means, there are two categories that 99%+ people fit into. I appreciate there are intersex people and they do fall outside what I'm saying. There are only two catgeories but they are broad categories. I gave specific examples of how two very different men are in the same category. I would encourage you to listen to Thaddeus Russell on YouTube and his interview on the Joe Rogan Experience on gender. He supports gender fluidity and the logical conclusion of this view is, for example, that homosexuals can't be masculine. I totally reject such a view point and consider it the height of stupidity. It's based on a very narrow definition of two genders that a lot of people obviously don't fit into, this is a strawman. Trans people recognise the importance of gender and hence go to great lengths to change their gender. Gender fluid people reject the importance of gender and demand that they need not be acknowledged in either category, hence their preference for gender neutral pronouns, whilst trans people generally want the pronoun of their transitioned sex. " I'm not sure that gender fluid people do reject the importance of gender; it seems to me to be just as possible that they regard gender as vital, but fluid, so that they can move between genders as they choose or need to. I think people who reject gender as a concept are more likely to be called agender. I think your generalization about pronouns is unhelpful too... | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. " Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? " Fallon fox. Literally the easiest Google ever.  | |||
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"I'm all for gender as a spectrum, but i have absolutely no time for 'gender fluid' toss pots. I also think it's insulting to trans people to even put them in the same category, they are essentially opposite beliefs. Society needs all sorts of people to function, actually it doesn't. It's more factually accurate to say that societies that are liberal and allow individuals (that aren't hurting anyone) to flourish end up richer for it, literally richer. Most people would rather live in a wealthy country than a poor one. This is in no small part because a small proportion of people generate most the wealth and innovation in a country and they tend to be a bit odd. I can speak better about masculinity; there are your uber macho lumberjacks, beer swelling, loud farting types and your quiet, computer geeks that look like they'd struggle to make love to their right hand. Both are valuable in society, both are men. It's incredibly unhelpful to start inventing new categories that don't exist, people need to grow the fuck up and deal with the complexity of a spectrum rather than desperately hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in. Your statements are completely contradictory. In the last paragraph you seem to imply that "gender" doesn't have to dictate your personality, traits or interests as person. I think what you're trying to get across is your belief that there are *gender stereotypes* in society which don't need to be adhered to in order for you to authentically be your gender. This is called *gender expression*. This is the equivalent of a man who (for a simple example) cries at the drop of a hat and who likes to wear pink, and a woman who likes to wear masculine clothing and cut their hair short. Society tells us what is masculine and feminine and gives inanimate objects, colours, clothing, interests and even emotions a "gender". This doesn't have to mean anything about your gender itself. The two accepted genders are male and female and most people think these are the only two *gender identities* and that you are biologically born into either. This idea is called *gender binary*. *Gender spectrum* implies the idea that gender is NOT binary, it is not necessarily set to two genders and is not limited to set values and can vary along a continuum. You can find yourself at any place along it and not be "set into a box" in terms of what gender you feel you are. You can indentify as one, both, more or vary between at any stage. Some also consider themselves *agender*, someone who doesn't identify with any gender at all. This doesn't have to be linked to the biological sex you were born as. This also encompasses trans people who identify with a gender not the same as the one they were biologically born with. For most, gender identity is about how you personally identify yourself as. It has no relation to biological sex/sex at birth. Some people's gender identity is the same as their biological sex. These people are *CIS*. For you to say: "I am all for the gender spectrum" "we need to deal with the complexity of a spectrum instead of hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in" "people need to grow the fuck up" and then go on to say that : "I have absolutely no time for gender fluid toss pots" "It's insulting to put trans people in the same category as they are essentially opposite beliefs" demonstrates that you are contradicting the terms that you're choosing to use and imply, and are probably not as open minded or as thoroughly considered on what your opinions actually, are as you thought. Either you believe In the "complexity" of the gender spectrum and we should "grow the fuck up" and stop trying to fit everyone into gender boxes (therefore accepting gender fluidity), or you believe in only two genders (whether born into them biologically or not) that the "gender fluid are toss pots and an insult to trans people". Which is it? Thanks for your points, but my points are in no way contradictory. I think we're getting confused about gender as a spectrum here. The way i was using it means exactly what the example i gave means, there are two categories that 99%+ people fit into. I appreciate there are intersex people and they do fall outside what I'm saying. There are only two catgeories but they are broad categories. I gave specific examples of how two very different men are in the same category. I would encourage you to listen to Thaddeus Russell on YouTube and his interview on the Joe Rogan Experience on gender. He supports gender fluidity and the logical conclusion of this view is, for example, that homosexuals can't be masculine. I totally reject such a view point and consider it the height of stupidity. It's based on a very narrow definition of two genders that a lot of people obviously don't fit into, this is a strawman. Trans people recognise the importance of gender and hence go to great lengths to change their gender. Gender fluid people reject the importance of gender and demand that they need not be acknowledged in either category, hence their preference for gender neutral pronouns, whilst trans people generally want the pronoun of their transitioned sex. I'm not sure that gender fluid people do reject the importance of gender; it seems to me to be just as possible that they regard gender as vital, but fluid, so that they can move between genders as they choose or need to. I think people who reject gender as a concept are more likely to be called agender. I think your generalization about pronouns is unhelpful too..." Gender fluid people are literally pushing for laws in countries like canada which ensure they get called certain pronouns so it's really not a generalisation. I encourage you to listen to someone like Thaddeus Russell who attempts to explain gender fluid in academic terms. | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? Fallon fox. Literally the easiest Google ever. "Or laurel hubbard in weightlifting before people tell me it's an isolated incident. | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. That is why identifying as something does not make it true. Needless to say that women will generally be far more unhappy about the implications of gender fludiity than men, once they actually realise what they are. " Fallon fox is a trans woman. Well actually, you can just call her a woman. There is some debate about at what stage trans women should be allowed to compete with women during their transition, and this is new territory for everyone so there are mistakes being made on occasion. However women undergoing gender reassignment treatment very quickly lose any competitive advantage due to the massive amount of hormones that they are taking. If there is an advantage, it will be one of only a few months. Your instance of referring to Fallon as a man is nothing short of utterly insensitive, transphobic, and indeed could be considered a hate crime. For the record - I am a gender fluid woman, and I would not be unhappy in any way if society simply accepted me as such. Perhaps you would like to spell out the 'implications' that you believe I would be unhappy with? | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? Fallon fox. Literally the easiest Google ever. "When people make a claim it's best to get from them exactly what they're talking about. Because I did Google and I found Fallon Fox. And she appears to be a transgender woman, rather than gender fluid. | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? Fallon fox. Literally the easiest Google ever.
Or laurel hubbard in weightlifting before people tell me it's an isolated incident. "Another trans woman. | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? Fallon fox. Literally the easiest Google ever.
Or laurel hubbard in weightlifting before people tell me it's an isolated incident.
Another trans woman.
"Ok so let's see what we do and don't agree on, can i get a yes or not to: - there are 2 sexes other than a very small percentage of intersex people? - there are 2 genders? - you cannot change your sex? - you can legally change your gender? - identifying as a gender does not change your sex? - people identifying as a gender different to their sex, who have not undergone a transition, should have the right to legally force people to refer to them by gender neutral pronouns? | |||
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"The way I see it, DNA, genes, chromosomes control every aspect of our lives. From hair colour to personality, the jobs certain people are suited too, the way we act. At some point in the womb, these building blocks are all put together & sometimes they don't fall into place, what is 'deemed' the correct order. Children are born with invisible issues, often unoticed as not physically obvious and not diagnosed until much later in life. I don't see this subject any differently to a recognised medical condition such as ASD or dyslexia. You have no control over your genetics, being blind isn't a choice, being trans isn't a choice. I accept people as I find them, individuals. Nicely put. "Absolutely not. A brain scan will show the distinct differences between the brain of someone on the asd spectrum and someone who is nuero-typical. A physical, biological basis for the spectrum and its resulting symptoms. Is there any evidence of this in transgender people? Ah no as you say they havent been tested. | |||
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" Ok so let's see what we do and don't agree on, can i get a yes or not to: - there are 2 sexes other than a very small percentage of intersex people? - there are 2 genders? - you cannot change your sex? - you can legally change your gender? - identifying as a gender does not change your sex? - people identifying as a gender different to their sex, who have not undergone a transition, should have the right to legally force people to refer to them by gender neutral pronouns? " As far as I'm concerned: - There are more than two sexes. - There are more than two genders. - You can change your sex. - You can change your gender. - Identifying as a gender might mean that you want to change your sex, but doesn't automatically change it. - People who identify as a different gender to the one on their birth certificate should have the legal right have legal documents that reflect their transition. - They're not 'preferred' pronouns, they're 'mandatory' pronouns. And you'll fucking well use them. | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. That is why identifying as something does not make it true. Needless to say that women will generally be far more unhappy about the implications of gender fludiity than men, once they actually realise what they are. Fallon fox is a trans woman. Well actually, you can just call her a woman. There is some debate about at what stage trans women should be allowed to compete with women during their transition, and this is new territory for everyone so there are mistakes being made on occasion. However women undergoing gender reassignment treatment very quickly lose any competitive advantage due to the massive amount of hormones that they are taking. If there is an advantage, it will be one of only a few months. Your instance of referring to Fallon as a man is nothing short of utterly insensitive, transphobic, and indeed could be considered a hate crime. For the record - I am a gender fluid woman, and I would not be unhappy in any way if society simply accepted me as such. Perhaps you would like to spell out the 'implications' that you believe I would be unhappy with?" Give it a rest with the hate crime rubbish, you do a great disservice with that. The notion that all advantge is lost isn't born out by the science. The evidence is overwhelmingly against you on that. Fallon fox is not a very good MMA fighter and fallon foxes male anatomy is the key reason they have won fights. If you could also answer the questions i asked talkingstove then i can tell you the implications. | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? Fallon fox. Literally the easiest Google ever.
Or laurel hubbard in weightlifting before people tell me it's an isolated incident.
Another trans woman.
Ok so let's see what we do and don't agree on, can i get a yes or not to:
- there are 2 sexes other than a very small percentage of intersex people?
- there are 2 genders?
- you cannot change your sex?
- you can legally change your gender?
- identifying as a gender does not change your sex?
- people identifying as a gender different to their sex, who have not undergone a transition, should have the right to legally force people to refer to them by gender neutral pronouns? "You made a claim that people who identify as gender fluid are 'toss pots' and gave this cage fighting issue as an example of why gender fluid is a problem. Now we see that incident had nothing to do with being gender fluid, you want to move onto other questions and ignore your own mistake? What do any of these questions have to do with showing that people identifying as gender fluid is a problem? | |||
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" Ok so let's see what we do and don't agree on, can i get a yes or not to: - there are 2 sexes other than a very small percentage of intersex people? - there are 2 genders? - you cannot change your sex? - you can legally change your gender? - identifying as a gender does not change your sex? - people identifying as a gender different to their sex, who have not undergone a transition, should have the right to legally force people to refer to them by gender neutral pronouns? As far as I'm concerned: - There are more than two sexes. - There are more than two genders. - You can change your sex. - You can change your gender. - Identifying as a gender might mean that you want to change your sex, but doesn't automatically change it. - People who identify as a different gender to the one on their birth certificate should have the legal right have legal documents that reflect their transition. - They're not 'preferred' pronouns, they're 'mandatory' pronouns. And you'll fucking well use them." There's no real basis for further discussion since, to the best of my knowledge, your views are just out of whack with biology, which is a science. Your views are why fallon fox can go around beating up women in my opinion. | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? Fallon fox. Literally the easiest Google ever.
Or laurel hubbard in weightlifting before people tell me it's an isolated incident.
Another trans woman.
Ok so let's see what we do and don't agree on, can i get a yes or not to:
- there are 2 sexes other than a very small percentage of intersex people?
- there are 2 genders?
- you cannot change your sex?
- you can legally change your gender?
- identifying as a gender does not change your sex?
- people identifying as a gender different to their sex, who have not undergone a transition, should have the right to legally force people to refer to them by gender neutral pronouns?
You made a claim that people who identify as gender fluid are 'toss pots' and gave this cage fighting issue as an example of why gender fluid is a problem.
Now we see that incident had nothing to do with being gender fluid, you want to move onto other questions and ignore your own mistake?
What do any of these questions have to do with showing that people identifying as gender fluid is a problem? "If you answer the questions i can see if there's any basis for discussion. I'm not on here to waste time arguing with people who ignore science, Im happy to answer your questions if you can answer mine. | |||
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" There's no real basis for further discussion since, to the best of my knowledge, your views are just out of whack with biology, which is a science." Having studied the medical ethics of this exact subject in academia, I can tell you that you are incorrect. Perhaps you could lay out the science that backs up your theory? | |||
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" There's no real basis for further discussion since, to the best of my knowledge, your views are just out of whack with biology, which is a science. Having studied the medical ethics of this exact subject in academia, I can tell you that you are incorrect. Perhaps you could lay out the science that backs up your theory?" Could you listen to Thaddeus Russell explain the case for gender fludiity, It's 17:49 minutes of your life which is not a lot for an issue you care about. Then listen to Jordan Peterson with the case against and tell me what you think Thaddeus got right and Jordan got wrong? | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? Fallon fox. Literally the easiest Google ever.
Or laurel hubbard in weightlifting before people tell me it's an isolated incident.
Another trans woman.
Ok so let's see what we do and don't agree on, can i get a yes or not to:
- there are 2 sexes other than a very small percentage of intersex people?
- there are 2 genders?
- you cannot change your sex?
- you can legally change your gender?
- identifying as a gender does not change your sex?
- people identifying as a gender different to their sex, who have not undergone a transition, should have the right to legally force people to refer to them by gender neutral pronouns?
You made a claim that people who identify as gender fluid are 'toss pots' and gave this cage fighting issue as an example of why gender fluid is a problem.
Now we see that incident had nothing to do with being gender fluid, you want to move onto other questions and ignore your own mistake?
What do any of these questions have to do with showing that people identifying as gender fluid is a problem?
If you answer the questions i can see if there's any basis for discussion. I'm not on here to waste time arguing with people who ignore science, Im happy to answer your questions if you can answer mine. "Lol at the pomposity. You made a claim, which was wrong, Now you're trying to spin it like I have to pass your little test before you'll defend your own opinion, which is just silly and an obvious evasion. | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? Fallon fox. Literally the easiest Google ever.
Or laurel hubbard in weightlifting before people tell me it's an isolated incident.
Another trans woman.
Ok so let's see what we do and don't agree on, can i get a yes or not to:
- there are 2 sexes other than a very small percentage of intersex people?
- there are 2 genders?
- you cannot change your sex?
- you can legally change your gender?
- identifying as a gender does not change your sex?
- people identifying as a gender different to their sex, who have not undergone a transition, should have the right to legally force people to refer to them by gender neutral pronouns?
You made a claim that people who identify as gender fluid are 'toss pots' and gave this cage fighting issue as an example of why gender fluid is a problem.
Now we see that incident had nothing to do with being gender fluid, you want to move onto other questions and ignore your own mistake?
What do any of these questions have to do with showing that people identifying as gender fluid is a problem?
If you answer the questions i can see if there's any basis for discussion. I'm not on here to waste time arguing with people who ignore science, Im happy to answer your questions if you can answer mine.
Lol at the pomposity.
You made a claim, which was wrong,
Now you're trying to spin it like I have to pass your little test before you'll defend your own opinion, which is just silly and an obvious evasion. "What you are attempting is a poor debating tactic where you offer nothing yourself and use semantics to pick at a parochial interpretation of what's been said. Basically you use framing and conflation to 'win'. Win in your own head all you like. It's not just my opinion, i have referenced two academics who are far more knowledgeable than you or i on the subject. I have weighed their arguements and come out on one side. You have added nothing so i think we'll leave it there. | |||
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"Personally, I think a discussion about the eligibility of trans people to compete against cis gender people is a great start for another thread or ten! I’m aware that my upper body strength will diminish due to the changes the new hormone balance in my body. How much it will change, I don’t know. " If you take the case of Laurel Hubbard, they had already set records in the male categories so we are talking about someone who is pretty good at their trade and obbiously has some natural gifts in that direction (e.g. bone structure). Reducing their testosterone will no doubt reduce their strength, but it doesn't change their bone structure. If you look at their lifts before and after, It's a good idicator of the difference the hormones make such as a 135kg snatch down to 123kg snatch. Very few men on this forum could do a 123kg snatch. | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? Fallon fox. Literally the easiest Google ever.
Or laurel hubbard in weightlifting before people tell me it's an isolated incident.
Another trans woman.
Ok so let's see what we do and don't agree on, can i get a yes or not to:
- there are 2 sexes other than a very small percentage of intersex people?
- there are 2 genders?
- you cannot change your sex?
- you can legally change your gender?
- identifying as a gender does not change your sex?
- people identifying as a gender different to their sex, who have not undergone a transition, should have the right to legally force people to refer to them by gender neutral pronouns?
You made a claim that people who identify as gender fluid are 'toss pots' and gave this cage fighting issue as an example of why gender fluid is a problem.
Now we see that incident had nothing to do with being gender fluid, you want to move onto other questions and ignore your own mistake?
What do any of these questions have to do with showing that people identifying as gender fluid is a problem?
If you answer the questions i can see if there's any basis for discussion. I'm not on here to waste time arguing with people who ignore science, Im happy to answer your questions if you can answer mine.
Lol at the pomposity.
You made a claim, which was wrong,
Now you're trying to spin it like I have to pass your little test before you'll defend your own opinion, which is just silly and an obvious evasion.
What you are attempting is a poor debating tactic where you offer nothing yourself and use semantics to pick at a parochial interpretation of what's been said. Basically you use framing and conflation to 'win'. Win in your own head all you like.
It's not just my opinion, i have referenced two academics who are far more knowledgeable than you or i on the subject. I have weighed their arguements and come out on one side. You have added nothing so i think we'll leave it there. "What I've added is showing that you've totally failed to back up your claim that the concept of gender fluid is dangerous. And now you want to make this about me, which it isn't. If you don't like being challenged on what you say, make sure what you say is accurate. You apparently couldn't even be bothered to check your own facts. Let's leave it there indeed. | |||
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"Don't spoil an interesting debate by bickering over who's opinion is the right one" Not what I'm doing. I'm just holding him accountable for his claims. | |||
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" If you take the case of Laurel Hubbard, they had already set records in the male categories so we are talking about someone who is pretty good at their trade and obbiously has some natural gifts in that direction (e.g. bone structure). Reducing their testosterone will no doubt reduce their strength, but it doesn't change their bone structure. If you look at their lifts before and after, It's a good idicator of the difference the hormones make such as a 135kg snatch down to 123kg snatch. Very few men on this forum could do a 123kg snatch. " You talk about bone structure - but if you knew anything about lifting you'd know that being small with short leavers is a distinct advantage when it comes to lifting. Most women have a 'bone structure' advantage over men. It's the hormones that mean men can lift more. | |||
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" Let's leave it there indeed. " | |||
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"Any research on how many transgendered people actually have these very rare very unusual chromosomal defects? Or are the majority, as I suspect plain old normal xx xy types... in which case your research and evidence is being portrayed in a misleading light. I do not believe there is a genetic basis for wishing to be transgender. I believe its all in the mind. I have seen no conclusive proof to say I am wrong. I dont actually believe in it all, chop bits off, add bits on, dress and be addressed differently, I still believe you are biologically the sex you are born as. But if people want to do it that's not really my business or concern. What I do object to is the idea that I am not entitled to my own viewpoint on it all, the threads today have thrown accusations around of transphobia and hate speech when people don't agree with the transgendered view. And I think all it does is make people even less inclined to listen or try and understand. " You have a certain viewpoint,and a right to that viewpoint. You say you believe people are always 'biologically the sex they were born as', you say you have seen no evidence to say you are wrong. Do you have evidence to say you are right? Can you please define 'biological sex'? | |||
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"Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex." And are you saying that is why there are more bi/gay/trans people today than in the past? If so, have these chromosome imbalances become more common recently, and if so, why do you think that is? | |||
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" If you take the case of Laurel Hubbard, they had already set records in the male categories so we are talking about someone who is pretty good at their trade and obbiously has some natural gifts in that direction (e.g. bone structure). Reducing their testosterone will no doubt reduce their strength, but it doesn't change their bone structure. If you look at their lifts before and after, It's a good idicator of the difference the hormones make such as a 135kg snatch down to 123kg snatch. Very few men on this forum could do a 123kg snatch. You talk about bone structure - but if you knew anything about lifting you'd know that being small with short leavers is a distinct advantage when it comes to lifting. Most women have a 'bone structure' advantage over men. It's the hormones that mean men can lift more." I know plenty about weight lifting and your analysis is very poor. The evidence is also staring you right in the face. Why is laurel hubbard a champion weight lifter when laurel hubbard has the bone structure of gavin hubbard (a disadvantage apparently) but less testosterone? Laurel hubbard has no less testosterone than the women laurel was competing against. According to your theory then the 1980's should have seen womens olympic weight lifters smashing mens records since the women had superior bone structure and were jacked up on artificial testosterone. | |||
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" And are you saying that is why there are more bi/gay/trans people today than in the past? If so, have these chromosome imbalances become more common recently, and if so, why do you think that is? " The reason that here are more bi/gay/trans (btw - being trans is nothing like being bi or gay) individuals now rather than in the past, is because in the past we've done things like kill people or put them in prison for coming out. It's likely that the proportion has always been the same, but now these individuals are more visible because they are allowed to be. | |||
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" If you take the case of Laurel Hubbard, they had already set records in the male categories so we are talking about someone who is pretty good at their trade and obbiously has some natural gifts in that direction (e.g. bone structure). Reducing their testosterone will no doubt reduce their strength, but it doesn't change their bone structure. If you look at their lifts before and after, It's a good idicator of the difference the hormones make such as a 135kg snatch down to 123kg snatch. Very few men on this forum could do a 123kg snatch. You talk about bone structure - but if you knew anything about lifting you'd know that being small with short leavers is a distinct advantage when it comes to lifting. Most women have a 'bone structure' advantage over men. It's the hormones that mean men can lift more. I know plenty about weight lifting and your analysis is very poor. The evidence is also staring you right in the face. Why is laurel hubbard a champion weight lifter when laurel hubbard has the bone structure of gavin hubbard (a disadvantage apparently) but less testosterone? Laurel hubbard has no less testosterone than the women laurel was competing against. According to your theory then the 1980's should have seen womens olympic weight lifters smashing mens records since the women had superior bone structure and were jacked up on artificial testosterone. " Testosterone is not the only hormone that makes a difference to strength training. Seriously - please educate yourself before making such ridiculous statements. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! " Fortunately mental health professionals disagree with you. But alas, it's amateur hour on the internet this morning... | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Fortunately mental health professionals disagree with you. But alas, it's amateur hour on the internet this morning..." That's an unfair comment. There must be some reason why there is such a rise in transgender people. | |||
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" If you take the case of Laurel Hubbard, they had already set records in the male categories so we are talking about someone who is pretty good at their trade and obbiously has some natural gifts in that direction (e.g. bone structure). Reducing their testosterone will no doubt reduce their strength, but it doesn't change their bone structure. If you look at their lifts before and after, It's a good idicator of the difference the hormones make such as a 135kg snatch down to 123kg snatch. Very few men on this forum could do a 123kg snatch. You talk about bone structure - but if you knew anything about lifting you'd know that being small with short leavers is a distinct advantage when it comes to lifting. Most women have a 'bone structure' advantage over men. It's the hormones that mean men can lift more. I know plenty about weight lifting and your analysis is very poor. The evidence is also staring you right in the face. Why is laurel hubbard a champion weight lifter when laurel hubbard has the bone structure of gavin hubbard (a disadvantage apparently) but less testosterone? Laurel hubbard has no less testosterone than the women laurel was competing against. According to your theory then the 1980's should have seen womens olympic weight lifters smashing mens records since the women had superior bone structure and were jacked up on artificial testosterone. Testosterone is not the only hormone that makes a difference to strength training. Seriously - please educate yourself before making such ridiculous statements." I've competed in weight lifting and know the sport very well. I think anyone else who does can see the flaws in what you are saying. As i said above, your views are counter-science unless i have misunderstood the field of biology. I've given you my sources for that claim. | |||
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"Just want to back brokenbrilliance up on one point here. They don't need me too and will probably be pissed off with me. However it is winding me the hell up. It's just on this thread either. Stop with the accusations of hate crime. Broken is blunt yes. But they try and give reasoned argument. A lot more than others I might add. I don't know if what they say is accurate or not as I am far from an expert. What I am certain of is hate towards the trans community or anyone else is not on their agenda. Frustration and sometimes maybe a lack of sympathy yes but hate no. I find it both insulting and cheap to see accusations like that being flung about." Thank you, the hyperbole (bluntness) is deliberate as it s out the ideologues whom i have no interest talking to. No amount of evidence will ever change their view and evidence for my opinions is all i have. I enjoy a reasoned discussion with anyone who will share facts and sources, whether they support my view or not. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Fortunately mental health professionals disagree with you. But alas, it's amateur hour on the internet this morning... That's an unfair comment. There must be some reason why there is such a rise in transgender people." There likely isn't an actual rise, just increased awareness and tolerance in society so people feel more comfortable being 'out'. Why would people want to be open about being trans if the response is 'you're mentally ill'? | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? Fallon fox. Literally the easiest Google ever.
When people make a claim it's best to get from them exactly what they're talking about.
Because I did Google and I found Fallon Fox. And she appears to be a transgender woman, rather than gender fluid.
"Ah sorry. I thought that's what we were debating, as that is what we're debating. | |||
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" There was a cage fighter who identified as a female, even though he was born a man. He was allowed to compete in the female division and proceeded to beat the living fuck out of the women because of his superior strength and size, he was not in any way more talented than them. Do you have a link to this? Or names at least? Fallon fox. Literally the easiest Google ever.
When people make a claim it's best to get from them exactly what they're talking about.
Because I did Google and I found Fallon Fox. And she appears to be a transgender woman, rather than gender fluid.
Ah sorry. I thought that's what we were debating, as that is what we're debating."No, the claim was that gender fluid as a concept is dangerous to society. Not being trans. | |||
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"I'm gender fluid, and therefore obviously a tosspot. Quite happy with that. I know what I am. I know what I've dealt with. If that's the worst thing I get called this year I'll take it. "Out of interest, do you think a biological male who crossdresses, is bisexual or gay cannot be masculine? | |||
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"I'm gender fluid, and therefore obviously a tosspot. Quite happy with that. I know what I am. I know what I've dealt with. If that's the worst thing I get called this year I'll take it. "I wish tosspot was the worst thing I'll be called this year because of my gender identity.  | |||
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"I'm gender fluid, and therefore obviously a tosspot. Quite happy with that. I know what I am. I know what I've dealt with. If that's the worst thing I get called this year I'll take it.
Out of interest, do you think a biological male who crossdresses, is bisexual or gay cannot be masculine? "Please stop confusing being gay and being transgender. They're not in any way the same thing, and shouldn't be likened in the way that you seem to be doing. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Fortunately mental health professionals disagree with you. But alas, it's amateur hour on the internet this morning... That's an unfair comment. There must be some reason why there is such a rise in transgender people." Is there an increase in the numbers of trans people? Or is there a rise in the number of openly trans people? | |||
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"I'm gender fluid, and therefore obviously a tosspot. Quite happy with that. I know what I am. I know what I've dealt with. If that's the worst thing I get called this year I'll take it.
Out of interest, do you think a biological male who crossdresses, is bisexual or gay cannot be masculine?
Please stop confusing being gay and being transgender. They're not in any way the same thing, and shouldn't be likened in the way that you seem to be doing."I'm not at all. I have absolutely no idea where you got that from, like most things you've said on this thread. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Fortunately mental health professionals disagree with you. But alas, it's amateur hour on the internet this morning... That's an unfair comment. There must be some reason why there is such a rise in transgender people. Is there an increase in the numbers of trans people? Or is there a rise in the number of openly trans people?" The number of children referred to the NHS as a result of transgender feelings and confusion about their gender has quadrupled in the last 5 years. They are children. I doubt that can be put down to a rise in them being openly trans. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! " Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Fortunately mental health professionals disagree with you. But alas, it's amateur hour on the internet this morning... That's an unfair comment. There must be some reason why there is such a rise in transgender people. Is there an increase in the numbers of trans people? Or is there a rise in the number of openly trans people? The number of children referred to the NHS as a result of transgender feelings and confusion about their gender has quadrupled in the last 5 years. They are children. I doubt that can be put down to a rise in them being openly trans. " It could be put down to increased awareness and confidence stemming from education. Incidentally,the NHS won't provide cross sex hormones (except puberty delaying meds) or GRS to anyone under the age of 18. | |||
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"I'm gender fluid, and therefore obviously a tosspot. Quite happy with that. I know what I am. I know what I've dealt with. If that's the worst thing I get called this year I'll take it.
Out of interest, do you think a biological male who crossdresses, is bisexual or gay cannot be masculine? "Not at all. That's ridiculous. You must have met or seen in the media a guy who you've since learned was gay and though "Him!?" In the case of sexuality and gender roles the concepts of masculinity and femininity are just as horribly misunderstood. The two aren't the same. | |||
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"I'm gender fluid, and therefore obviously a tosspot. Quite happy with that. I know what I am. I know what I've dealt with. If that's the worst thing I get called this year I'll take it.
Out of interest, do you think a biological male who crossdresses, is bisexual or gay cannot be masculine?
Not at all. That's ridiculous. You must have met or seen in the media a guy who you've since learned was gay and though "Him!?"
In the case of sexuality and gender roles the concepts of masculinity and femininity are just as horribly misunderstood. The two aren't the same. "Just from casual observation,I would say that gay men,with their bulging biceps, lean torso s and tight Tshirts,tend to be the most masculine men of all. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know?" I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix. | |||
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"I'm gender fluid, and therefore obviously a tosspot. Quite happy with that. I know what I am. I know what I've dealt with. If that's the worst thing I get called this year I'll take it.
Out of interest, do you think a biological male who crossdresses, is bisexual or gay cannot be masculine?
Not at all. That's ridiculous. You must have met or seen in the media a guy who you've since learned was gay and though "Him!?"
In the case of sexuality and gender roles the concepts of masculinity and femininity are just as horribly misunderstood. The two aren't the same. "Ok good, we agree. See one of the reasons this subject is difficult and requires the exchange of ideas rather than point scoring is the terminology is not universally understood. I am learning this as well through our discussion since you do not appear to meet what i understood gender fludity to be, or at least the group i wish to call toss-pots. Here's a video of someone explaining, in better terms that i can, the logical extension of gender as a social construct: https://youtu.be/rkouBjy6XCo I disagree with him and am interested if you do too? | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Fortunately mental health professionals disagree with you. But alas, it's amateur hour on the internet this morning... That's an unfair comment. There must be some reason why there is such a rise in transgender people. Is there an increase in the numbers of trans people? Or is there a rise in the number of openly trans people? The number of children referred to the NHS as a result of transgender feelings and confusion about their gender has quadrupled in the last 5 years. They are children. I doubt that can be put down to a rise in them being openly trans. " Because before if a child said they felt in the wrong body then their parents would either think it was a 'stage' or would tell them to man up. Society is changing and people are becoming more tolerant. Doctors and psychologists are more informed and thus can explain what's happening to a child. There's not suddenly more transgender people, gay people or whatever from the LGBT appearing out of nowhere. They've always been there but now with more help and and acceptance in society people aren't having to hide anymore or pretend they're something they're not | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! " You strike me as the sort of person that shouts 'backs to the walls' when a gay person walks past. Modern society has no place or need for your narrow minded, ill informed and offensive self or others of your ilk | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix." I could be wrong but i understood the person to be saying gender fluid people are unstable. My understanding is that a trans person recognises that they want to live in an identity different to the one they were born to, they 'transition' to it. This implies they appreciate the importance of the categories male and female. I don't see anything mentally unstable in that. A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Fortunately mental health professionals disagree with you. But alas, it's amateur hour on the internet this morning... That's an unfair comment. There must be some reason why there is such a rise in transgender people. Is there an increase in the numbers of trans people? Or is there a rise in the number of openly trans people? The number of children referred to the NHS as a result of transgender feelings and confusion about their gender has quadrupled in the last 5 years. They are children. I doubt that can be put down to a rise in them being openly trans. Because before if a child said they felt in the wrong body then their parents would either think it was a 'stage' or would tell them to man up. Society is changing and people are becoming more tolerant. Doctors and psychologists are more informed and thus can explain what's happening to a child. There's not suddenly more transgender people, gay people or whatever from the LGBT appearing out of nowhere. They've always been there but now with more help and and acceptance in society people aren't having to hide anymore or pretend they're something they're not" And just to raise the point and make people aware - not every person who is referred actually transitions. It's not a one track path. People are referred to get help, and that help is to help them understand what they are going through as an individual. Being trans is not always the "problem" and transitioning is not always the answer. The psychiatrists are there to help figure out what path works best for that individual and help them down that path. Being referred does not automatically equal transition. | |||
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" The number of children referred to the NHS as a result of transgender feelings and confusion about their gender has quadrupled in the last 5 years. They are children. I doubt that can be put down to a rise in them being openly trans. " When I was a child I was told that I shouldn't have my hair cut like a boy, and that I shouldn't wear clothes like a boy, and that I shouldn't behave like a boy. I suspect there is a ride in children being able to express themselves more fully because adults in their life are more open to the concept of transpeople. Until quite recently many adults wouldn't even known that it was possible to transition. Certainly I know my mother made fun of 'trannies' quite regularly when I was growing up, and up until quite recently to be honest. | |||
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" A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. " Many gender fluid people simply reject the gender binary and choose to live outside of it. Day to day they might express themselves in what could be considered more traditionally masculine or feminine ways. I'm unsure what is difficult to understand about that. I don't see how it indicates mental health issues. It's really no different to people who choose to reject monogamy and instead live outside of the monogamous structure that we're taught from childhood is the 'correct' way to live. It's just that non-monogamy is more accepted in our society. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix. I could be wrong but i understood the person to be saying gender fluid people are unstable. My understanding is that a trans person recognises that they want to live in an identity different to the one they were born to, they 'transition' to it. This implies they appreciate the importance of the categories male and female. I don't see anything mentally unstable in that. A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. " Or maybe they understand their brains better than we do and have worked out that being "genderfluid" is the term that best explains what they are and what they are going through to make their lives livable? I wonder sometimes if terminology is too, simple maybe? Even though I'll admit that I get lost in it sometimes! I wonder if our brains are still too complex even in this day and age for us to understand completely and realizations about our brains are coming too fast for our understanding to keep up and science in many cases to prove. | |||
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" A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. Many gender fluid people simply reject the gender binary and choose to live outside of it. Day to day they might express themselves in what could be considered more traditionally masculine or feminine ways. I'm unsure what is difficult to understand about that. I don't see how it indicates mental health issues. It's really no different to people who choose to reject monogamy and instead live outside of the monogamous structure that we're taught from childhood is the 'correct' way to live. It's just that non-monogamy is more accepted in our society." Ok so that's an interesting comparison, monogamy is objectively a social construct and a recent one at that. There is no historical basis for saying monogamy is the natural way humans evolved. I'm guessing you think gender is a social construct, i don't. I've already posted a link to someone giving a very thorough explanation (in support) of gender as a social constuct and one of his conclusions is that gay men can't be masculine. If you agree gender is a social constuct but think gay men can be masculine, I'd be interested to know what step of his logic he got wrong as he seems well informed on the subject. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! "  well done me for resisting saying what I actually think of you and your transphobia. Another forum ban dodged.
It is not a mental illness any more than being gay is.
They tried ‘treating’ people to ‘cure’ them in the past.
Your stupidity astounds. Well done sir | |||
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" Or maybe they understand their brains better than we do and have worked out that being "genderfluid" is the term that best explains what they are and what they are going through to make their lives livable? "
It's just quite sad that a lot of people think they are qualified to tell others that they're wrong about how they feel about themselves.
Unless there's been a mass outbreak of telepathy than I'm not aware of. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix. I could be wrong but i understood the person to be saying gender fluid people are unstable. My understanding is that a trans person recognises that they want to live in an identity different to the one they were born to, they 'transition' to it. This implies they appreciate the importance of the categories male and female. I don't see anything mentally unstable in that. A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. Or maybe they understand their brains better than we do and have worked out that being "genderfluid" is the term that best explains what they are and what they are going through to make their lives livable? I wonder sometimes if terminology is too, simple maybe? Even though I'll admit that I get lost in it sometimes! I wonder if our brains are still too complex even in this day and age for us to understand completely and realizations about our brains are coming too fast for our understanding to keep up and science in many cases to prove." We are having a lot of problems on the thread with the terminology, myself included, so i agree about that. My overarching point is that i think people should look at a variety of people through the lense of male and female, which cover 99%+ of the population. This would educate them, for example, that a gay man is still a man. What i see from gender fluid people is that they want to reject the whole category which i think is counter productive and i see no purpose to. | |||
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" I'm guessing you think gender is a social construct, i don't. I've already posted a link to someone giving a very thorough explanation (in support) of gender as a social constuct and one of his conclusions is that gay men can't be masculine. If you agree gender is a social constuct but think gay men can be masculine, I'd be interested to know what step of his logic he got wrong as he seems well informed on the subject. " Gender is a social construct. The person you have posted the link to is wrong. There is plenty (PLENTY) of academic work backing up this point of view. You know, the academic work that is actually taught and researched in universities at the moment. | |||
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" I'm guessing you think gender is a social construct, i don't. I've already posted a link to someone giving a very thorough explanation (in support) of gender as a social constuct and one of his conclusions is that gay men can't be masculine. If you agree gender is a social constuct but think gay men can be masculine, I'd be interested to know what step of his logic he got wrong as he seems well informed on the subject. Gender is a social construct. The person you have posted the link to is wrong. There is plenty (PLENTY) of academic work backing up this point of view. You know, the academic work that is actually taught and researched in universities at the moment." As i said, I'd be intersted to know which step of his logic is wrong rather than just a blanket statement. He is arguing from an acadmeic standpoint and is actually supporting your position so please tell me where he is specifically wrong in his logic? | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! " Wow !!! Someone still living in the dark ages .Theres always one Have a nice day | |||
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" The number of children referred to the NHS as a result of transgender feelings and confusion about their gender has quadrupled in the last 5 years. They are children. I doubt that can be put down to a rise in them being openly trans. When I was a child I was told that I shouldn't have my hair cut like a boy, and that I shouldn't wear clothes like a boy, and that I shouldn't behave like a boy. I suspect there is a ride in children being able to express themselves more fully because adults in their life are more open to the concept of transpeople. Until quite recently many adults wouldn't even known that it was possible to transition. Certainly I know my mother made fun of 'trannies' quite regularly when I was growing up, and up until quite recently to be honest." A child dressing and acting like the opposite sex is one thing. I am obviously fine with that. I am not sure about a child knowing that they want to trans at an early age. Surely puberty at the earliest is when anyone could conceivably have thoughts about it. Even then it's a confusing enough time as it is. If anyone has any evidence to prove otherwise feel free to share. | |||
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" As i said, I'd be intersted to know which step of his logic is wrong rather than just a blanket statement. He is arguing from an acadmeic standpoint and is actually supporting your position so please tell me where he is specifically wrong in his logic? " He doesn't represent my point of view at all. The guy appears to know nothing academically about the subject. I don't even know how to engage with his point of view, because it's so nonsensical from an academic point of view. | |||
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" The number of children referred to the NHS as a result of transgender feelings and confusion about their gender has quadrupled in the last 5 years. They are children. I doubt that can be put down to a rise in them being openly trans. When I was a child I was told that I shouldn't have my hair cut like a boy, and that I shouldn't wear clothes like a boy, and that I shouldn't behave like a boy. I suspect there is a ride in children being able to express themselves more fully because adults in their life are more open to the concept of transpeople. Until quite recently many adults wouldn't even known that it was possible to transition. Certainly I know my mother made fun of 'trannies' quite regularly when I was growing up, and up until quite recently to be honest. A child dressing and acting like the opposite sex is one thing. I am obviously fine with that. I am not sure about a child knowing that they want to trans at an early age. Surely puberty at the earliest is when anyone could conceivably have thoughts about it. Even then it's a confusing enough time as it is. If anyone has any evidence to prove otherwise feel free to share." So all that 'transitioning' as a child involves, is giving them puberty blockers so that they can make the decision when they are old enough to comprehend the decisions they are making. Usually mid to late teens. It is merely stopping the process so that children can choose when they are older, and so that they can have sufficient support in the entire process. If they stop taking the puberty blocking medication their bodies just carry on as if it were never taken. If they choose to transition when they are older, they don't have to have their hormonal changes reversed first, so it's much less traumatic for the body. | |||
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" As i said, I'd be intersted to know which step of his logic is wrong rather than just a blanket statement. He is arguing from an acadmeic standpoint and is actually supporting your position so please tell me where he is specifically wrong in his logic? He doesn't represent my point of view at all. The guy appears to know nothing academically about the subject. I don't even know how to engage with his point of view, because it's so nonsensical from an academic point of view." It's interesting that there are multiple times on this thread when you are presented with an alternative view and your response is just 'they don't know what they are talking about'. He's a former professor at Columbia University, a published author and has muliple academic papers published. I don't agree with him but it's not objective to say he doesn't know what he's talking about or there is no logic to his points. | |||
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" The number of children referred to the NHS as a result of transgender feelings and confusion about their gender has quadrupled in the last 5 years. They are children. I doubt that can be put down to a rise in them being openly trans. When I was a child I was told that I shouldn't have my hair cut like a boy, and that I shouldn't wear clothes like a boy, and that I shouldn't behave like a boy. I suspect there is a ride in children being able to express themselves more fully because adults in their life are more open to the concept of transpeople. Until quite recently many adults wouldn't even known that it was possible to transition. Certainly I know my mother made fun of 'trannies' quite regularly when I was growing up, and up until quite recently to be honest. A child dressing and acting like the opposite sex is one thing. I am obviously fine with that. I am not sure about a child knowing that they want to trans at an early age. Surely puberty at the earliest is when anyone could conceivably have thoughts about it. Even then it's a confusing enough time as it is. If anyone has any evidence to prove otherwise feel free to share." Thank you for the invitation. I, like countless others I’ve spoken to, knew I wasn’t like the other boys when I was about seven years old. The distress I felt when I realised my body was going to develop in a way I didn’t want it to is something I can’t put into words in such a way that I could make people understand unless they’ve expedited themselves. Puberty was a nightmare with things happening I couldn’t control. I started to grow breasts but also suffered spontaneous errections. The vast majority of trans people I know, and I know a lot, all knew at a very early age that the gender they were assigned at birth was incorrect. | |||
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" As i said, I'd be intersted to know which step of his logic is wrong rather than just a blanket statement. He is arguing from an acadmeic standpoint and is actually supporting your position so please tell me where he is specifically wrong in his logic? He doesn't represent my point of view at all. The guy appears to know nothing academically about the subject. I don't even know how to engage with his point of view, because it's so nonsensical from an academic point of view. It's interesting that there are multiple times on this thread when you are presented with an alternative view and your response is just 'they don't know what they are talking about'. He's a former professor at Columbia University, a published author and has muliple academic papers published. I don't agree with him but it's not objective to say he doesn't know what he's talking about or there is no logic to his points. " Russell has previously held academic posts but was sacked for them. He has released a book on 'pop history' with very little academic basis. His specialist subject is not gender and sex (try reading someone like Jack Butler if you want a real insight from a specialist). When people challenge Russell's work academically he is knowing for just saying people have a lack of imagination or they don't understand. He doesn't go through the academic peer review process with his work anymore and he has been sacked from university teaching posts. Do not take him as a good academic. For he is not. | |||
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"Can I get one thing straight today if nothing else? Transgender is not a choice any more than being gay is. Coming out, is a choice. Doing something about it, is a choice. Being trans is just what I am. " And you're bloody wonderful xx | |||
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" As i said, I'd be intersted to know which step of his logic is wrong rather than just a blanket statement. He is arguing from an acadmeic standpoint and is actually supporting your position so please tell me where he is specifically wrong in his logic? He doesn't represent my point of view at all. The guy appears to know nothing academically about the subject. I don't even know how to engage with his point of view, because it's so nonsensical from an academic point of view. It's interesting that there are multiple times on this thread when you are presented with an alternative view and your response is just 'they don't know what they are talking about'. He's a former professor at Columbia University, a published author and has muliple academic papers published. I don't agree with him but it's not objective to say he doesn't know what he's talking about or there is no logic to his points. Russell has previously held academic posts but was sacked for them. He has released a book on 'pop history' with very little academic basis. His specialist subject is not gender and sex (try reading someone like Jack Butler if you want a real insight from a specialist). When people challenge Russell's work academically he is knowing for just saying people have a lack of imagination or they don't understand. He doesn't go through the academic peer review process with his work anymore and he has been sacked from university teaching posts. Do not take him as a good academic. For he is not." Ok then why can you not pick apart his logic? He does believe gender is a social construct, so do you, Im genuinely trying to understand why you come out with different conclusions. He has presented his logic, there probably isn't space on the thread for you to give us an essay on yours but if you tell me where his logic is flawed then you make your point. | |||
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" The number of children referred to the NHS as a result of transgender feelings and confusion about their gender has quadrupled in the last 5 years. They are children. I doubt that can be put down to a rise in them being openly trans. When I was a child I was told that I shouldn't have my hair cut like a boy, and that I shouldn't wear clothes like a boy, and that I shouldn't behave like a boy. I suspect there is a ride in children being able to express themselves more fully because adults in their life are more open to the concept of transpeople. Until quite recently many adults wouldn't even known that it was possible to transition. Certainly I know my mother made fun of 'trannies' quite regularly when I was growing up, and up until quite recently to be honest. A child dressing and acting like the opposite sex is one thing. I am obviously fine with that. I am not sure about a child knowing that they want to trans at an early age. Surely puberty at the earliest is when anyone could conceivably have thoughts about it. Even then it's a confusing enough time as it is. If anyone has any evidence to prove otherwise feel free to share." From my experience, I had no idea that transpeople existed or that it was possible to transition until I stumbled across it when I was 16. When I did everything I had experienced up to that point suddenly made sense - every cringe at being referred to as female, every uncomfortable time I had to dress as female, every time I backed out of games where I felt wrong and so uncomfortable because I had to play a female role or I was dressed as female but the role I wanted to play wasn't and it just didn't feel right. So many times when I was a young child that just didn't make sense to me and then top that off with the hell of puberty and dealing with facing having breasts and periods for the rest of my life. The relief I felt when I found out I could actually change that and have a life, I can't put it into words! If I had known that as a child I could have avoided so much or at least understood why I was feeling what I was and learnt to deal with it, there would have been a lot less tears and dark times. | |||
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" As i said, I'd be intersted to know which step of his logic is wrong rather than just a blanket statement. He is arguing from an acadmeic standpoint and is actually supporting your position so please tell me where he is specifically wrong in his logic? He doesn't represent my point of view at all. The guy appears to know nothing academically about the subject. I don't even know how to engage with his point of view, because it's so nonsensical from an academic point of view. It's interesting that there are multiple times on this thread when you are presented with an alternative view and your response is just 'they don't know what they are talking about'. He's a former professor at Columbia University, a published author and has muliple academic papers published. I don't agree with him but it's not objective to say he doesn't know what he's talking about or there is no logic to his points. Russell has previously held academic posts but was sacked for them. He has released a book on 'pop history' with very little academic basis. His specialist subject is not gender and sex (try reading someone like Jack Butler if you want a real insight from a specialist). When people challenge Russell's work academically he is knowing for just saying people have a lack of imagination or they don't understand. He doesn't go through the academic peer review process with his work anymore and he has been sacked from university teaching posts. Do not take him as a good academic. For he is not. Ok then why can you not pick apart his logic? He does believe gender is a social construct, so do you, Im genuinely trying to understand why you come out with different conclusions. He has presented his logic, there probably isn't space on the thread for you to give us an essay on yours but if you tell me where his logic is flawed then you make your point. " Why can't I pick apart his logic? Because he doesn't seem to have any 'logic' in the podcast you suggested! Plus he's actually quite offensive, and I'd prefer not to listen to him again. Perhaps instead you could present what you believe is his summarised argument, and I will discuss that with you? | |||
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"Can I get one thing straight today if nothing else? Transgender is not a choice any more than being gay is. Coming out, is a choice. Doing something about it, is a choice. Being trans is just what I am. " I think there's a higher principle anyway. I think the most important thing is that you are able to pursue your own happiness however you choose so long as it doesn't infringe on others ability to do the same. I believe that would override someone saying that transitioning shouldn't be allowed / encouraged because it's a mental disorder, even if it was proved to be a mental disorder using the scientific method (hypothetically). | |||
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" Ok so let's see what we do and don't agree on, can i get a yes or not to: - there are 2 sexes other than a very small percentage of intersex people? - there are 2 genders? - you cannot change your sex? - you can legally change your gender? - identifying as a gender does not change your sex? - people identifying as a gender different to their sex, who have not undergone a transition, should have the right to legally force people to refer to them by gender neutral pronouns? As far as I'm concerned: - There are more than two sexes. - There are more than two genders. - You can change your sex. - You can change your gender. - Identifying as a gender might mean that you want to change your sex, but doesn't automatically change it. - People who identify as a different gender to the one on their birth certificate should have the legal right have legal documents that reflect their transition. - They're not 'preferred' pronouns, they're 'mandatory' pronouns. And you'll fucking well use them." ???????????????????????????????????????????????? If I am going to look to anyone to help form my opinion on what I believe about sex and gender, it will be someone who demonstrably has shown that they have direct experience of education in gender studies and issues, biological sex and someone who shows knowledge of trans people and their gender experiences, specifically from spending time with people within that community. The amount of "YouTube" videos and commentary online from all sorts of journos, mouthpieces and "academics" that have literally have had no direct education in or exposure to actual trans issues or people is vast, and not as worthy on the topic for obvious reasons. And let's say this loudly for people in the back who can't hear: GENDER is not the same as SEXUALITY. Gender and sexuality are two DIFFERENT things. Gender: what sex you personally identify as Sexuality: the gender you are sexually attracted to They are not the same thing, and are not linked to each other for everyone. The amount of contradiction going in is embarrassing to those committing it. I don't expect everyone to agree with my view and the view of trans people, but at least start using the terminology correctly when having your debate, terminology that was created and bourne out of the trans debate itself. It just makes you look like an uneducated fool and shows that you don't know what you're actually debating about. You get to define your view but you don't get to do that. Y redefining actual terminology when you use it incorrectly. This is separate to what your actual opinions are. One person keeps doing this in particular and it's embarrassing. | |||
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"Can I get one thing straight today if nothing else? Transgender is not a choice any more than being gay is. Coming out, is a choice. Doing something about it, is a choice. Being trans is just what I am. And you're bloody wonderful xx" Thank you xx I’m tempted to upload a pic of my face post a laser session but I suspect it wouldn’t be approved nor is it really a swinging kind of thing. The point being; my choice to do something about this has not been taken lightly. By accepting who I am and telling people I risked losing everyone I love. I lost one job already. I risk DVT. Kidney failure etc. The procedures I commit to and undergo are painful. Would I take a pill and not be trans? No frickin way. I like who I am and to hell with the people who want to call me a he and insist I’ll always be something I’m not. I’ve been called ‘brave’ in the past. I don’t think I am because I feel I have no choice but to do this. | |||
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" Ok so let's see what we do and don't agree on, can i get a yes or not to: - there are 2 sexes other than a very small percentage of intersex people? - there are 2 genders? - you cannot change your sex? - you can legally change your gender? - identifying as a gender does not change your sex? - people identifying as a gender different to their sex, who have not undergone a transition, should have the right to legally force people to refer to them by gender neutral pronouns? As far as I'm concerned: - There are more than two sexes. - There are more than two genders. - You can change your sex. - You can change your gender. - Identifying as a gender might mean that you want to change your sex, but doesn't automatically change it. - People who identify as a different gender to the one on their birth certificate should have the legal right have legal documents that reflect their transition. - They're not 'preferred' pronouns, they're 'mandatory' pronouns. And you'll fucking well use them." Just to confirm, I support this response | |||
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"My daughter has just "come out" so to speak. She beleives she was born in the wrong body and she wants to look like how she feels inside. She wants us to attend a gender reassignment clinic with her. We have told her, what ever she does we will support and stand by her, but Its ripping her apart inside and her collage work is starting to suffer because shes so unhappy living as a girl. She wants to be known as "dan" but i dont think we are ready to start calling her that yet, but her name is very similar to that anyway so it wouldnt make that much of a difference Shes scared to tell her grand parents because she doesnt think they will accept her. " Is there a nick name you could all use instead for now? I used a shortening of my old name while I transitioned which is between that and my name now. Granted I hate being called it now as it reminds me of what I went through but it did make things easier for others. Grand parents are tricky, I never told mine. It was obvious I was at least potentially a lesbian being so "butch" but the subject was never brought up. I kind of regret it now, I'm sure my gran would have been great about it (all the rest were dead by the time i realised what I was) but it's too late now | |||
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" As i said, I'd be intersted to know which step of his logic is wrong rather than just a blanket statement. He is arguing from an acadmeic standpoint and is actually supporting your position so please tell me where he is specifically wrong in his logic? He doesn't represent my point of view at all. The guy appears to know nothing academically about the subject. I don't even know how to engage with his point of view, because it's so nonsensical from an academic point of view. It's interesting that there are multiple times on this thread when you are presented with an alternative view and your response is just 'they don't know what they are talking about'. He's a former professor at Columbia University, a published author and has muliple academic papers published. I don't agree with him but it's not objective to say he doesn't know what he's talking about or there is no logic to his points. Russell has previously held academic posts but was sacked for them. He has released a book on 'pop history' with very little academic basis. His specialist subject is not gender and sex (try reading someone like Jack Butler if you want a real insight from a specialist). When people challenge Russell's work academically he is knowing for just saying people have a lack of imagination or they don't understand. He doesn't go through the academic peer review process with his work anymore and he has been sacked from university teaching posts. Do not take him as a good academic. For he is not. Ok then why can you not pick apart his logic? He does believe gender is a social construct, so do you, Im genuinely trying to understand why you come out with different conclusions. He has presented his logic, there probably isn't space on the thread for you to give us an essay on yours but if you tell me where his logic is flawed then you make your point. Why can't I pick apart his logic? Because he doesn't seem to have any 'logic' in the podcast you suggested! Plus he's actually quite offensive, and I'd prefer not to listen to him again. Perhaps instead you could present what you believe is his summarised argument, and I will discuss that with you?" Ok let's try that, sorry to Thad if i misrespresent him but here goes: - gender is an absract concept amd changing - therefore nobody can be born a man or a woman - you become a man or woman through your life choices - whatever society deems worthy to throw into the definition of male and female leaves out the people that don't meet it - 'society' thinks / used to think homosexuality isn't a natural choice for a man - therefore society cannot define a homosexual male as a man, they fall out of the definition - gender defintions are therefore harmful Does jack butler also go by the name judith bulter? If you could share i link that would be appreciated... | |||
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" Ok so let's see what we do and don't agree on, can i get a yes or not to: - there are 2 sexes other than a very small percentage of intersex people? - there are 2 genders? - you cannot change your sex? - you can legally change your gender? - identifying as a gender does not change your sex? - people identifying as a gender different to their sex, who have not undergone a transition, should have the right to legally force people to refer to them by gender neutral pronouns? As far as I'm concerned: - There are more than two sexes. - There are more than two genders. - You can change your sex. - You can change your gender. - Identifying as a gender might mean that you want to change your sex, but doesn't automatically change it. - People who identify as a different gender to the one on their birth certificate should have the legal right have legal documents that reflect their transition. - They're not 'preferred' pronouns, they're 'mandatory' pronouns. And you'll fucking well use them. ???????????????????????????????????????????????? If I am going to look to anyone to help form my opinion on what I believe about sex and gender, it will be someone who demonstrably has shown that they have direct experience of education in gender studies and issues, biological sex and someone who shows knowledge of trans people and their gender experiences, specifically from spending time with people within that community. The amount of "YouTube" videos and commentary online from all sorts of journos, mouthpieces and "academics" that have literally have had no direct education in or exposure to actual trans issues or people is vast, and not as worthy on the topic for obvious reasons. And let's say this loudly for people in the back who can't hear: GENDER is not the same as SEXUALITY. Gender and sexuality are two DIFFERENT things. Gender: what sex you personally identify as Sexuality: the gender you are sexually attracted to They are not the same thing, and are not linked to each other for everyone. The amount of contradiction going in is embarrassing to those committing it. I don't expect everyone to agree with my view and the view of trans people, but at least start using the terminology correctly when having your debate, terminology that was created and bourne out of the trans debate itself. It just makes you look like an uneducated fool and shows that you don't know what you're actually debating about. You get to define your view but you don't get to do that. Y redefining actual terminology when you use it incorrectly. This is separate to what your actual opinions are. One person keeps doing this in particular and it's embarrassing. " Absolutely nowhere have i confused gender and sexuality. I'll be nice and assume it's a strawman you are setting up rather than you are just deliberately misrepresenting me to points score. | |||
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"My daughter has just "come out" so to speak. She beleives she was born in the wrong body and she wants to look like how she feels inside. She wants us to attend a gender reassignment clinic with her. We have told her, what ever she does we will support and stand by her, but Its ripping her apart inside and her collage work is starting to suffer because shes so unhappy living as a girl. She wants to be known as "dan" but i dont think we are ready to start calling her that yet, but her name is very similar to that anyway so it wouldnt make that much of a difference Shes scared to tell her grand parents because she doesnt think they will accept her. Is there a nick name you could all use instead for now? I used a shortening of my old name while I transitioned which is between that and my name now. Granted I hate being called it now as it reminds me of what I went through but it did make things easier for others. Grand parents are tricky, I never told mine. It was obvious I was at least potentially a lesbian being so "butch" but the subject was never brought up. I kind of regret it now, I'm sure my gran would have been great about it (all the rest were dead by the time i realised what I was) but it's too late now "Shes very butch looking. Crew cut hair, she built like me(mr) and its very obvious shes not straight. Her name is only four letters long so shortening it. That would be dan. We just call her dane. | |||
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" If I am going to look to anyone to help form my opinion on what I believe about sex and gender, it will be someone who demonstrably has shown that they have direct experience of education in gender studies and issues, biological sex and someone who shows knowledge of trans people and their gender experiences, specifically from spending time with people within that community. . I don't expect everyone to agree with my view and the view of trans people, but at least start using the terminology correctly when having your debate, terminology that was created and bourne out of the trans debate itself. It just makes you look like an uneducated fool and shows that you don't know what you're actually debating about. You get to define your view but you don't get to do that. Y redefining actual terminology when you use it incorrectly. " Not sure why you've quoted me there. I'm a gender fluid person who has studied gender academically and has written a postgrad thesis related to gender. But sure. I'm the 'uneducated fool'. | |||
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"My daughter has just "come out" so to speak. She beleives she was born in the wrong body and she wants to look like how she feels inside. She wants us to attend a gender reassignment clinic with her. We have told her, what ever she does we will support and stand by her, but Its ripping her apart inside and her collage work is starting to suffer because shes so unhappy living as a girl. She wants to be known as "dan" but i dont think we are ready to start calling her that yet, but her name is very similar to that anyway so it wouldnt make that much of a difference Shes scared to tell her grand parents because she doesnt think they will accept her. Is there a nick name you could all use instead for now? I used a shortening of my old name while I transitioned which is between that and my name now. Granted I hate being called it now as it reminds me of what I went through but it did make things easier for others. Grand parents are tricky, I never told mine. It was obvious I was at least potentially a lesbian being so "butch" but the subject was never brought up. I kind of regret it now, I'm sure my gran would have been great about it (all the rest were dead by the time i realised what I was) but it's too late now
Shes very butch looking. Crew cut hair, she built like me(mr) and its very obvious shes not straight.
Her name is only four letters long so shortening it. That would be dan. We just call her dane. "My (now) Goddaughter has been through this although the opposite way round. All the boys in the family, big, butch & heavyset, she's slim, dainty & such a pretty face. From the age of 5 her feminine side was obvious. At 13 undeniable. 18 now & living completely as a girl.... It has been tough, she's dealt with a lot of things through school, but she's been supported by so many too. I'm just glad she's finally happy & living her life the way she wants now x Good luck to you all xx | |||
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" - 'society' thinks / used to think homosexuality isn't a natural choice for a man - therefore society cannot define a homosexual male as a man, they fall out of the definition - gender defintions are therefore harmful " Gender definitions, if forced on people by society, are harmful, yes. The above is describing something negative about rigid societal rules/stereotypes. It's not disproving that gender is a social construct. | |||
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" As i said, I'd be intersted to know which step of his logic is wrong rather than just a blanket statement. He is arguing from an acadmeic standpoint and is actually supporting your position so please tell me where he is specifically wrong in his logic? He doesn't represent my point of view at all. The guy appears to know nothing academically about the subject. I don't even know how to engage with his point of view, because it's so nonsensical from an academic point of view. It's interesting that there are multiple times on this thread when you are presented with an alternative view and your response is just 'they don't know what they are talking about'. He's a former professor at Columbia University, a published author and has muliple academic papers published. I don't agree with him but it's not objective to say he doesn't know what he's talking about or there is no logic to his points. Russell has previously held academic posts but was sacked for them. He has released a book on 'pop history' with very little academic basis. His specialist subject is not gender and sex (try reading someone like Jack Butler if you want a real insight from a specialist). When people challenge Russell's work academically he is knowing for just saying people have a lack of imagination or they don't understand. He doesn't go through the academic peer review process with his work anymore and he has been sacked from university teaching posts. Do not take him as a good academic. For he is not. Ok then why can you not pick apart his logic? He does believe gender is a social construct, so do you, Im genuinely trying to understand why you come out with different conclusions. He has presented his logic, there probably isn't space on the thread for you to give us an essay on yours but if you tell me where his logic is flawed then you make your point. Why can't I pick apart his logic? Because he doesn't seem to have any 'logic' in the podcast you suggested! Plus he's actually quite offensive, and I'd prefer not to listen to him again. Perhaps instead you could present what you believe is his summarised argument, and I will discuss that with you? Ok let's try that, sorry to Thad if i misrespresent him but here goes: - gender is an absract concept amd changing - therefore nobody can be born a man or a woman - you become a man or woman through your life choices - whatever society deems worthy to throw into the definition of male and female leaves out the people that don't meet it - 'society' thinks / used to think homosexuality isn't a natural choice for a man - therefore society cannot define a homosexual male as a man, they fall out of the definition - gender defintions are therefore harmful Does jack butler also go by the name judith bulter? If you could share i link that would be appreciated... " You keep saying your not confusing sexuality and gender but those points right there literally do exactly that. You are saying that it's harmful because by his definition being a gay man doesn't fit into societies definition of being a man, thus not making him a man. That is one persons view and is not fact. That is blending sexuality and gender and they are not the same thing and have no bearing on the other so that point is moot. | |||
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"My daughter has just "come out" so to speak. She beleives she was born in the wrong body and she wants to look like how she feels inside. She wants us to attend a gender reassignment clinic with her. We have told her, what ever she does we will support and stand by her, but Its ripping her apart inside and her collage work is starting to suffer because shes so unhappy living as a girl. She wants to be known as "dan" but i dont think we are ready to start calling her that yet, but her name is very similar to that anyway so it wouldnt make that much of a difference Shes scared to tell her grand parents because she doesnt think they will accept her. Is there a nick name you could all use instead for now? I used a shortening of my old name while I transitioned which is between that and my name now. Granted I hate being called it now as it reminds me of what I went through but it did make things easier for others. Grand parents are tricky, I never told mine. It was obvious I was at least potentially a lesbian being so "butch" but the subject was never brought up. I kind of regret it now, I'm sure my gran would have been great about it (all the rest were dead by the time i realised what I was) but it's too late now
Shes very butch looking. Crew cut hair, she built like me(mr) and its very obvious shes not straight.
Her name is only four letters long so shortening it. That would be dan. We just call her dane.
My (now) Goddaughter has been through this although the opposite way round.
All the boys in the family, big, butch & heavyset, she's slim, dainty & such a pretty face.
From the age of 5 her feminine side was obvious. At 13 undeniable.
18 now & living completely as a girl....
It has been tough, she's dealt with a lot of things through school, but she's been supported by so many too.
I'm just glad she's finally happy & living her life the way she wants now x
Good luck to you all xx"Thank you very much | |||
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" Ok let's try that, sorry to Thad if i misrespresent him but here goes: - gender is an absract concept amd changing - therefore nobody can be born a man or a woman - you become a man or woman through your life choices - whatever society deems worthy to throw into the definition of male and female leaves out the people that don't meet it - 'society' thinks / used to think homosexuality isn't a natural choice for a man - therefore society cannot define a homosexual male as a man, they fall out of the definition - gender defintions are therefore harmful Does jack butler also go by the name judith bulter? If you could share i link that would be appreciated... " - Gender is a social construct, not an abstract concept. - In our society you can be born a man or a woman. Of course you can. That's what they write on your birth certificate. That's because our society largely subscribes to the bigender paradigm (i.e. we mostly see the world in a way that says there are two genders). - It depends what you mean by life choices. - Society used to think that homosexuality wasn't natural. The people who still think that can go screw themselves and it's certainly no longer a majority viewpoint (now as low as about 20% I believe I saw a survey say recently). - It's certainly true that society, on the whole, believes that you must have a penis or a vagina to be a man or a woman. If you have neither (or the wrong option) then society rejects you. - The point about society not defining gay men as male is rubbish. Society just refused to acknowledge that someone could be gay, they didn't say they weren't a man. - Gender definitions aren't harmful at all. We just have to be careful how we apply them, and open minded to the fact that the bigender paradigm may not be the best option (just like we once believed the world is flat and now know it is round, we once believed there were two genders and now perhaps we know differently). Jack Butler used to use the name Judith Butler. He transitioned during his academic career. I can't provide a link - you'll need to get some of his books out of the library. | |||
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" If I am going to look to anyone to help form my opinion on what I believe about sex and gender, it will be someone who demonstrably has shown that they have direct experience of education in gender studies and issues, biological sex and someone who shows knowledge of trans people and their gender experiences, specifically from spending time with people within that community. . I don't expect everyone to agree with my view and the view of trans people, but at least start using the terminology correctly when having your debate, terminology that was created and bourne out of the trans debate itself. It just makes you look like an uneducated fool and shows that you don't know what you're actually debating about. You get to define your view but you don't get to do that. Y redefining actual terminology when you use it incorrectly. Not sure why you've quoted me there. I'm a gender fluid person who has studied gender academically and has written a postgrad thesis related to gender. But sure. I'm the 'uneducated fool'." I wasn't referring to you by he way. I replied to your quote with a comment of support but it didn't show up. The rest of my message, directed elsewhere, did however. I posted a message of support to your statement separately in the end, which is there above somewhere in the thread.
As an aside, I still see (elsewhere) terminology being misused and people contradicting themselves again. Ignorance seems like a happy place to be. | |||
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"I still believe you are biologically the sex you are born as. Since the medical community can barely manage to define what 'biological sex' is, perhaps you could enlighten everyone?" Perhaps she could explain the existence of hermaphrodites as well? People do not choose to Trans. Some very clever people in white coats found in laboritories have stated it's down to chromosomes. But the general public and many fab members disagree and are adament that Trans people just wake up one day and decide to flounce about in the attire of the opposite 'gender'... just for the crack, no overwhelming urge/need that's drove many who fight it to suicide, no its just a wee quirk that we do cause we're bored and feel like it | |||
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"My daughter has just "come out" so to speak. She beleives she was born in the wrong body and she wants to look like how she feels inside. She wants us to attend a gender reassignment clinic with her. We have told her, what ever she does we will support and stand by her, but Its ripping her apart inside and her collage work is starting to suffer because shes so unhappy living as a girl. She wants to be known as "dan" but i dont think we are ready to start calling her that yet, but her name is very similar to that anyway so it wouldnt make that much of a difference Shes scared to tell her grand parents because she doesnt think they will accept her. Is there a nick name you could all use instead for now? I used a shortening of my old name while I transitioned which is between that and my name now. Granted I hate being called it now as it reminds me of what I went through but it did make things easier for others. Grand parents are tricky, I never told mine. It was obvious I was at least potentially a lesbian being so "butch" but the subject was never brought up. I kind of regret it now, I'm sure my gran would have been great about it (all the rest were dead by the time i realised what I was) but it's too late now
Shes very butch looking. Crew cut hair, she built like me(mr) and its very obvious shes not straight.
Her name is only four letters long so shortening it. That would be dan. We just call her dane. "Just thinking out loud from my own experience to both your posts, and maybe something you may want to pass on to them. I may use "you" as a general "you" not you specifically, it's just easier for me to explain what I'm thinking, although I'm mainly talking to your child with some of it just in case any of it may be helpful - Transitioning takes time. The first appointment to see a gender clinic can be *from* 2 years upwards in many cases. Instead of using the time to drown in the thoughts of what can't be done (or for a parent what they feel they may be losing) use the time to prepare for the future, for transitioning and importantly beyond transitioning (if transitioning is the answer). Education is an important part of this, try not to let it slip as it will be regretted later on. The time can also be used to experiment. By this I mean with things like names, interests - some interests may be being ignored as they may be viewed as too feminine and so "contradict" being trans, this can have a negative affect. The emphasis should be on being the individual and the individual is so much more than just being trans. I used to get my hobbies and some mannerisms picked up on and pointed out as "too feminine" that does more damage as you then rip yourself apart more and try to conform to how you think you should be to please others. I learnt that very late on and I'm still exploring who I am now as I spent too much time concentrating on what others were expecting of me. It will take time for *all* of you to come to terms with what is happening. Everyone needs to have patience with each other as they do so. But this could be a fun time as you all explore/help explore who you child is and what they want to be (and by that I don't just mean trans). Life won't wait for the transition to happen and then start again. Expecting it to and ignoring everything else in life will only make the future harder. Exploring being trans can be done along side everything else, such as education. And it doesn't have to wait until the appointment to happen. There are support groups out there, Facebook has loads. There are also quite a few of us happy to share our experiences. Support for your child *and* you. It's hard work, for everyone involved, and not everyone will want to do that work. Some come around, some don't, all I can advise is please don't take that out on and try to help your child to not blame themselves for this. How people continue to react to finding out is their choice, not your child's. Sorry, I realise I am rambling I know I'm saying more than what you have asked for and side tracking this thread. Ignore it or take it on board if it is relevant, that's up to you. If you want to know more of what I have experienced or any questions you feel I may be able to answer you are more than welcome to pm me, although I do go on a bit! | |||
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"I haven't read every comment but does this post address people who are very easily influenced and the role society has in making them think they are trans?Some people will have a genuine mental imbalance that with treatment would stop them from the physical act of altering their appearance which would be better for them. There are cases of people undergoing Transgender surgery only for them to realise that it was a mistake and they then go through reversal procedures. People may say that this is a tiny minority of the trans community but seeing as Transgender people are themselves a tiny minority even one person going through the procedure unnecessarily should be too many for the TG community. " Surely providing information, acceptance, openness, and support enables people to make more stable, informed decisions about any medical treatment they might want/need. Avoiding talking about these things isn't going to help. I highly doubt anyone is going to get body changing treatment just because they think being trans is the new cool thing. And if some people do regret their transition, that's sad for them for sure, but people can also regret vasectomies, cosmetic surgery, etc. It doesn't mean we need to deny people choices in case they make one that might be wrong. | |||
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"I haven't read every comment but does this post address people who are very easily influenced and the role society has in making them think they are trans?Some people will have a genuine mental imbalance that with treatment would stop them from the physical act of altering their appearance which would be better for them. There are cases of people undergoing Transgender surgery only for them to realise that it was a mistake and they then go through reversal procedures. People may say that this is a tiny minority of the trans community but seeing as Transgender people are themselves a tiny minority even one person going through the procedure unnecessarily should be too many for the TG community. " No. It started off as a discussion about people’s assumption that you can’t be genetically one gender and be born another. | |||
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"I still believe you are biologically the sex you are born as. Since the medical community can barely manage to define what 'biological sex' is, perhaps you could enlighten everyone? Perhaps she could explain the existence of hermaphrodites as well? People do not choose to Trans. Some very clever people in white coats found in laboritories have stated it's down to chromosomes. But the general public and many fab members disagree and are adament that Trans people just wake up one day and decide to flounce about in the attire of the opposite 'gender'... just for the crack, no overwhelming urge/need that's drove many who fight it to suicide, no its just a wee quirk that we do cause we're bored and feel like it "Even in these liberal times it’s not easy to show yourself as trans. You need thick skin as we are a minority group. Many people have only really heard of cross dressers, transvestites and drag queens. The word trans is unfortunate in a way because it’s so close to the word tranny and people assume that’s what we are. It’s a choice and a thrill in some way. It really isn’t and that’s why trans people don’t like being grouped in with the TVs and CDs. We are fundamentally different contrary to popular belief and the insistence of certain TVs on here. I do not see myself as better, as I’ve been accused in the past. Just different. | |||
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"I haven't read every comment but does this post address people who are very easily influenced and the role society has in making them think they are trans?Some people will have a genuine mental imbalance that with treatment would stop them from the physical act of altering their appearance which would be better for them. There are cases of people undergoing Transgender surgery only for them to realise that it was a mistake and they then go through reversal procedures. People may say that this is a tiny minority of the trans community but seeing as Transgender people are themselves a tiny minority even one person going through the procedure unnecessarily should be too many for the TG community. Surely providing information, acceptance, openness, and support enables people to make more stable, informed decisions about any medical treatment they might want/need. Avoiding talking about these things isn't going to help. I highly doubt anyone is going to get body changing treatment just because they think being trans is the new cool thing. And if some people do regret their transition, that's sad for them for sure, but people can also regret vasectomies, cosmetic surgery, etc. It doesn't mean we need to deny people choices in case they make one that might be wrong. " I may have been overly simplistic in my post but if you look at the extreme left these days they seem to encourage people to certainly out as anything but "normal" therefore people (easily influenced) would be more inclined to push ahead with things they may have otherwise had second thoughts about. I may once again seem simplistic in my approach but the simpler we keep things the better. | |||
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"I still believe you are biologically the sex you are born as. Since the medical community can barely manage to define what 'biological sex' is, perhaps you could enlighten everyone? Perhaps she could explain the existence of hermaphrodites as well? People do not choose to Trans. Some very clever people in white coats found in laboritories have stated it's down to chromosomes. But the general public and many fab members disagree and are adament that Trans people just wake up one day and decide to flounce about in the attire of the opposite 'gender'... just for the crack, no overwhelming urge/need that's drove many who fight it to suicide, no its just a wee quirk that we do cause we're bored and feel like it
Even in these liberal times it’s not easy to show yourself as trans. You need thick skin as we are a minority group.
Many people have only really heard of cross dressers, transvestites and drag queens.
The word trans is unfortunate in a way because it’s so close to the word tranny and people assume that’s what we are. It’s a choice and a thrill in some way. It really isn’t and that’s why trans people don’t like being grouped in with the TVs and CDs. We are fundamentally different contrary to popular belief and the insistence of certain TVs on here.
I do not see myself as better, as I’ve been accused in the past. Just different. "There's only one or two TVs I can think of that seem to have a stick up their arse about trans women thinking they're 'better' and I'm not sure where they even get the notion from. I've always been an advocate of trans women getting their own titles on this site because I understand why you don't want to be group with TVs and CDs. It amazes me to no end that people on a site like this can be so open minded sexually but so close minded societally. As a side note, im a little bit in love with you Rachael  | |||
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"I haven't read every comment but does this post address people who are very easily influenced and the role society has in making them think they are trans?Some people will have a genuine mental imbalance that with treatment would stop them from the physical act of altering their appearance which would be better for them. There are cases of people undergoing Transgender surgery only for them to realise that it was a mistake and they then go through reversal procedures. People may say that this is a tiny minority of the trans community but seeing as Transgender people are themselves a tiny minority even one person going through the procedure unnecessarily should be too many for the TG community. Surely providing information, acceptance, openness, and support enables people to make more stable, informed decisions about any medical treatment they might want/need. Avoiding talking about these things isn't going to help. I highly doubt anyone is going to get body changing treatment just because they think being trans is the new cool thing. And if some people do regret their transition, that's sad for them for sure, but people can also regret vasectomies, cosmetic surgery, etc. It doesn't mean we need to deny people choices in case they make one that might be wrong. I may have been overly simplistic in my post but if you look at the extreme left these days they seem to encourage people to certainly out as anything but "normal" therefore people (easily influenced) would be more inclined to push ahead with things they may have otherwise had second thoughts about. I may once again seem simplistic in my approach but the simpler we keep things the better. " That is why pre-transition people have to go through a lot of counselling and psychotherapy as to determine what is actually best for them. As someone else said, not everyone that tries to transition ends up actually doing it or being recommended for it | |||
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" If I am going to look to anyone to help form my opinion on what I believe about sex and gender, it will be someone who demonstrably has shown that they have direct experience of education in gender studies and issues, biological sex and someone who shows knowledge of trans people and their gender experiences, specifically from spending time with people within that community. . I don't expect everyone to agree with my view and the view of trans people, but at least start using the terminology correctly when having your debate, terminology that was created and bourne out of the trans debate itself. It just makes you look like an uneducated fool and shows that you don't know what you're actually debating about. You get to define your view but you don't get to do that. Y redefining actual terminology when you use it incorrectly. Not sure why you've quoted me there. I'm a gender fluid person who has studied gender academically and has written a postgrad thesis related to gender. But sure. I'm the 'uneducated fool'. I wasn't referring to you by he way. I replied to your quote with a comment of support but it didn't show up. The rest of my message, directed elsewhere, did however. I posted a message of support to your statement separately in the end, which is there above somewhere in the thread.
As an aside, I still see (elsewhere) terminology being misused and people contradicting themselves again. Ignorance seems like a happy place to be."I haven't read all of the thread, but I am very interested in the philosophy of trans theory and you seem to be someone who can address this issue with intelligence 
Can I ask you if you think gender is completely subjective. I. E. I that one's gender is a matter for the individual themselves and that when someone asserts they are a man or a woman or whatever, it is not possible to contradict them? | |||
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"I haven't read every comment but does this post address people who are very easily influenced and the role society has in making them think they are trans?Some people will have a genuine mental imbalance that with treatment would stop them from the physical act of altering their appearance which would be better for them. There are cases of people undergoing Transgender surgery only for them to realise that it was a mistake and they then go through reversal procedures. People may say that this is a tiny minority of the trans community but seeing as Transgender people are themselves a tiny minority even one person going through the procedure unnecessarily should be too many for the TG community. Surely providing information, acceptance, openness, and support enables people to make more stable, informed decisions about any medical treatment they might want/need. Avoiding talking about these things isn't going to help. I highly doubt anyone is going to get body changing treatment just because they think being trans is the new cool thing. And if some people do regret their transition, that's sad for them for sure, but people can also regret vasectomies, cosmetic surgery, etc. It doesn't mean we need to deny people choices in case they make one that might be wrong. I may have been overly simplistic in my post but if you look at the extreme left these days they seem to encourage people to certainly out as anything but "normal" therefore people (easily influenced) would be more inclined to push ahead with things they may have otherwise had second thoughts about. I may once again seem simplistic in my approach but the simpler we keep things the better. " Well, this is a matter of perspective to a certain degree, I suppose. I don't see a push from the left, extreme left or otherwise, for anything other than visbility and respect for minorities. Which yes, often involves talking about and championing minority causes more than mainstream causes. But that's a tiny rebalance after centuries of LGBTQ people being discriminated against. I wouldn't say its impossible that as a result of increased openness on trans issues, someone might move faster than they might have done in the past - but surely we don't stop the movement for trans peoples rights (affecting huge numbers of people) to maybe avoid a hypothetical situation? The sensible answer is, as I said, to provide all the support and decision making tools a person needs so that they are fully aware of what they're doing and why. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix. I could be wrong but i understood the person to be saying gender fluid people are unstable. My understanding is that a trans person recognises that they want to live in an identity different to the one they were born to, they 'transition' to it. This implies they appreciate the importance of the categories male and female. I don't see anything mentally unstable in that. A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. " Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. | |||
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" If I am going to look to anyone to help form my opinion on what I believe about sex and gender, it will be someone who demonstrably has shown that they have direct experience of education in gender studies and issues, biological sex and someone who shows knowledge of trans people and their gender experiences, specifically from spending time with people within that community. . I don't expect everyone to agree with my view and the view of trans people, but at least start using the terminology correctly when having your debate, terminology that was created and bourne out of the trans debate itself. It just makes you look like an uneducated fool and shows that you don't know what you're actually debating about. You get to define your view but you don't get to do that. Y redefining actual terminology when you use it incorrectly. Not sure why you've quoted me there. I'm a gender fluid person who has studied gender academically and has written a postgrad thesis related to gender. But sure. I'm the 'uneducated fool'. I wasn't referring to you by he way. I replied to your quote with a comment of support but it didn't show up. The rest of my message, directed elsewhere, did however. I posted a message of support to your statement separately in the end, which is there above somewhere in the thread.
As an aside, I still see (elsewhere) terminology being misused and people contradicting themselves again. Ignorance seems like a happy place to be.
I haven't read all of the thread, but I am very interested in the philosophy of trans theory and you seem to be someone who can address this issue with intelligence
Can I ask you if you think gender is completely subjective. I. E. I that one's gender is a matter for the individual themselves and that when someone asserts they are a man or a woman or whatever, it is not possible to contradict them? "Would you want to contradict a gay person? Tell them they are wrong about their homosexuality? It’s for the professionals to test our resolve and our certainty of our feelings. As mentioned a couple of posts back, we are put through lots of hoops to try to out the mentally ill and the fantasists. As I mentioned earlier, the hormones we receive are a danger to us if not properly monitored and so no medic would prescribe them unless they were certain we had a dysphoria that needed help to overcome. | |||
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" As i said, I'd be intersted to know which step of his logic is wrong rather than just a blanket statement. He is arguing from an acadmeic standpoint and is actually supporting your position so please tell me where he is specifically wrong in his logic? He doesn't represent my point of view at all. The guy appears to know nothing academically about the subject. I don't even know how to engage with his point of view, because it's so nonsensical from an academic point of view. It's interesting that there are multiple times on this thread when you are presented with an alternative view and your response is just 'they don't know what they are talking about'. He's a former professor at Columbia University, a published author and has muliple academic papers published. I don't agree with him but it's not objective to say he doesn't know what he's talking about or there is no logic to his points. Russell has previously held academic posts but was sacked for them. He has released a book on 'pop history' with very little academic basis. His specialist subject is not gender and sex (try reading someone like Jack Butler if you want a real insight from a specialist). When people challenge Russell's work academically he is knowing for just saying people have a lack of imagination or they don't understand. He doesn't go through the academic peer review process with his work anymore and he has been sacked from university teaching posts. Do not take him as a good academic. For he is not. Ok then why can you not pick apart his logic? He does believe gender is a social construct, so do you, Im genuinely trying to understand why you come out with different conclusions. He has presented his logic, there probably isn't space on the thread for you to give us an essay on yours but if you tell me where his logic is flawed then you make your point. Why can't I pick apart his logic? Because he doesn't seem to have any 'logic' in the podcast you suggested! Plus he's actually quite offensive, and I'd prefer not to listen to him again. Perhaps instead you could present what you believe is his summarised argument, and I will discuss that with you? Ok let's try that, sorry to Thad if i misrespresent him but here goes: - gender is an absract concept amd changing - therefore nobody can be born a man or a woman - you become a man or woman through your life choices - whatever society deems worthy to throw into the definition of male and female leaves out the people that don't meet it - 'society' thinks / used to think homosexuality isn't a natural choice for a man - therefore society cannot define a homosexual male as a man, they fall out of the definition - gender defintions are therefore harmful Does jack butler also go by the name judith bulter? If you could share i link that would be appreciated... You keep saying your not confusing sexuality and gender but those points right there literally do exactly that. You are saying that it's harmful because by his definition being a gay man doesn't fit into societies definition of being a man, thus not making him a man. That is one persons view and is not fact. That is blending sexuality and gender and they are not the same thing and have no bearing on the other so that point is moot. " Honestly it's a bit infurìating when ive stated multiple times that I'm paraphrasing the logic of someone i don't agree with, then you claim that because i paraphase it then it's my viewpoint! Are you actually reading the thread or just hunting for things to jump on? | |||
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" If I am going to look to anyone to help form my opinion on what I believe about sex and gender, it will be someone who demonstrably has shown that they have direct experience of education in gender studies and issues, biological sex and someone who shows knowledge of trans people and their gender experiences, specifically from spending time with people within that community. . I don't expect everyone to agree with my view and the view of trans people, but at least start using the terminology correctly when having your debate, terminology that was created and bourne out of the trans debate itself. It just makes you look like an uneducated fool and shows that you don't know what you're actually debating about. You get to define your view but you don't get to do that. Y redefining actual terminology when you use it incorrectly. Not sure why you've quoted me there. I'm a gender fluid person who has studied gender academically and has written a postgrad thesis related to gender. But sure. I'm the 'uneducated fool'. I wasn't referring to you by he way. I replied to your quote with a comment of support but it didn't show up. The rest of my message, directed elsewhere, did however. I posted a message of support to your statement separately in the end, which is there above somewhere in the thread.
As an aside, I still see (elsewhere) terminology being misused and people contradicting themselves again. Ignorance seems like a happy place to be.
I haven't read all of the thread, but I am very interested in the philosophy of trans theory and you seem to be someone who can address this issue with intelligence
Can I ask you if you think gender is completely subjective. I. E. I that one's gender is a matter for the individual themselves and that when someone asserts they are a man or a woman or whatever, it is not possible to contradict them?
Would you want to contradict a gay person? Tell them they are wrong about their homosexuality?
It’s for the professionals to test our resolve and our certainty of our feelings.
As mentioned a couple of posts back, we are put through lots of hoops to try to out the mentally ill and the fantasists.
As I mentioned earlier, the hormones we receive are a danger to us if not properly monitored and so no medic would prescribe them unless they were certain we had a dysphoria that needed help to overcome. "That's fine. You are saying there is some sort of objective test for gender. From what you have said it's for professionals to decide if someone's gender identity is genuine. It must follow from that that some people fail to pass the professional test. Hence an objective test. On the gay point, yes if someone said they were gay but had never had sex with someone of the same gender and showed no discernible attraction to the said gender, then yes I would question whether they were, in fact, gay. Just as I would question someone who had never voted anything but Labour saying they were a Conservative. | |||
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" Ok let's try that, sorry to Thad if i misrespresent him but here goes: - gender is an absract concept amd changing - therefore nobody can be born a man or a woman - you become a man or woman through your life choices - whatever society deems worthy to throw into the definition of male and female leaves out the people that don't meet it - 'society' thinks / used to think homosexuality isn't a natural choice for a man - therefore society cannot define a homosexual male as a man, they fall out of the definition - gender defintions are therefore harmful Does jack butler also go by the name judith bulter? If you could share i link that would be appreciated... - Gender is a social construct, not an abstract concept. - In our society you can be born a man or a woman. Of course you can. That's what they write on your birth certificate. That's because our society largely subscribes to the bigender paradigm (i.e. we mostly see the world in a way that says there are two genders). - It depends what you mean by life choices. - Society used to think that homosexuality wasn't natural. The people who still think that can go screw themselves and it's certainly no longer a majority viewpoint (now as low as about 20% I believe I saw a survey say recently). - It's certainly true that society, on the whole, believes that you must have a penis or a vagina to be a man or a woman. If you have neither (or the wrong option) then society rejects you. - The point about society not defining gay men as male is rubbish. Society just refused to acknowledge that someone could be gay, they didn't say they weren't a man. - Gender definitions aren't harmful at all. We just have to be careful how we apply them, and open minded to the fact that the bigender paradigm may not be the best option (just like we once believed the world is flat and now know it is round, we once believed there were two genders and now perhaps we know differently). Jack Butler used to use the name Judith Butler. He transitioned during his academic career. I can't provide a link - you'll need to get some of his books out of the library." Well we tried. I don't think you are really looking at the meaning of what he's saying and the tie in with post modernism. You can't take these words at literal face value and grasp the meaning. I watched a judith / jack bulter video and it was exactly the same core principle. Thanks for trying all the same. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix. I could be wrong but i understood the person to be saying gender fluid people are unstable. My understanding is that a trans person recognises that they want to live in an identity different to the one they were born to, they 'transition' to it. This implies they appreciate the importance of the categories male and female. I don't see anything mentally unstable in that. A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. " But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix. I could be wrong but i understood the person to be saying gender fluid people are unstable. My understanding is that a trans person recognises that they want to live in an identity different to the one they were born to, they 'transition' to it. This implies they appreciate the importance of the categories male and female. I don't see anything mentally unstable in that. A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. " It's the ideology of what I call radical subjectivism - that an individual can make their own definitions re their identity and that that definition cannot be challenged on the basis of objective categories. As an old fashioned Marxist materialist, I don't hold with it. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix. I could be wrong but i understood the person to be saying gender fluid people are unstable. My understanding is that a trans person recognises that they want to live in an identity different to the one they were born to, they 'transition' to it. This implies they appreciate the importance of the categories male and female. I don't see anything mentally unstable in that. A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. " I meant,does 'gender fluidity' really need a label? If it's behaviour that we all do to some extent.? As for labelling individual people.I believe that asking is much more effective than demanding. if someone asks to be called 'she' 'he' 'they' or even 'your majesty',what does it hurt me to go along with that? If they demand it,I may go along with it but inwardly despise them. | |||
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" If I am going to look to anyone to help form my opinion on what I believe about sex and gender, it will be someone who demonstrably has shown that they have direct experience of education in gender studies and issues, biological sex and someone who shows knowledge of trans people and their gender experiences, specifically from spending time with people within that community. . I don't expect everyone to agree with my view and the view of trans people, but at least start using the terminology correctly when having your debate, terminology that was created and bourne out of the trans debate itself. It just makes you look like an uneducated fool and shows that you don't know what you're actually debating about. You get to define your view but you don't get to do that. Y redefining actual terminology when you use it incorrectly. Not sure why you've quoted me there. I'm a gender fluid person who has studied gender academically and has written a postgrad thesis related to gender. But sure. I'm the 'uneducated fool'. I wasn't referring to you by he way. I replied to your quote with a comment of support but it didn't show up. The rest of my message, directed elsewhere, did however. I posted a message of support to your statement separately in the end, which is there above somewhere in the thread.
As an aside, I still see (elsewhere) terminology being misused and people contradicting themselves again. Ignorance seems like a happy place to be.
I haven't read all of the thread, but I am very interested in the philosophy of trans theory and you seem to be someone who can address this issue with intelligence
Can I ask you if you think gender is completely subjective. I. E. I that one's gender is a matter for the individual themselves and that when someone asserts they are a man or a woman or whatever, it is not possible to contradict them? "I assume this question and commentary is directed towards me? Thank you, however apologies if I have got his wrong. A great question to ask either way
Gender is how someone self identifies themselves in terms of sex. It is subjective to the person. Biological sex is a different term. For some people these two things match, and for some they don't. I guess if someone wanted to try and contradict someone else's gender by not accepting it, it is kind of irrelevant as it wouldn't change that persons gender. Some people don't believe in gender/that you can't self define it if it's different to biological sex but that's a different debate. It's the terminology that's key here.
I did post a more detailed reply at the top of the thread (post 12 I believe), but to summarise my opinion, I personally don't believe that *gender* is *binary*. I believe in the *gender spectrum* therefore I believe that *gender fluidity* does exist.
I do believe that the majority of people classify themselves to be one of the two "main" *genders*. But I do believe in a spectrum outside of these.
Everything written between an asterix I am expressing as accepted terminology for the sake of clarity and understanding.
No one has to agree with my opinion on the above per se, however the main issue here is people using terminology incorrectly to explain their views, and as a result mislabelling and contradicting entirely the opinions they are trying to express. And continuing to use the same terminology incorrectly.
People are literally contradicting themselves within single sentences, let alone paragraphs or entire posts.
People don't have to agree with my viewpoint but you don't get to redefine a whole terminology just because you didn't understand the definition of the terminology properly in the first place. Educate yourself on the definitions of the terms you are using if you are attempting to have a proper debate. Especially if you are trying to use those terms to explain your view. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix. I could be wrong but i understood the person to be saying gender fluid people are unstable. My understanding is that a trans person recognises that they want to live in an identity different to the one they were born to, they 'transition' to it. This implies they appreciate the importance of the categories male and female. I don't see anything mentally unstable in that. A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. It's the ideology of what I call radical subjectivism - that an individual can make their own definitions re their identity and that that definition cannot be challenged on the basis of objective categories. As an old fashioned Marxist materialist, I don't hold with it. " Yup, you can find a long piece on Marxist matrrialism on the website of... thadddeus russell. Well that's the philosophy that is being used by very very far left groups who want to establish a principle of control (i.e. you must use the pronouns i say) and then extrapolate the principle into other privileges. You can see this in Berkley, former home of one Judith Butler, where pupils of colour (their words, not mine) are demanding they should be allowed to sit exams at home and not in the exam hall. | |||
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" Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. " Examples of anyone trying to get the law to force people to refer to others as 'gender fluid'? | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix. I could be wrong but i understood the person to be saying gender fluid people are unstable. My understanding is that a trans person recognises that they want to live in an identity different to the one they were born to, they 'transition' to it. This implies they appreciate the importance of the categories male and female. I don't see anything mentally unstable in that. A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. I meant,does 'gender fluidity' really need a label? If it's behaviour that we all do to some extent.? As for labelling individual people.I believe that asking is much more effective than demanding. if someone asks to be called 'she' 'he' 'they' or even 'your majesty',what does it hurt me to go along with that? If they demand it,I may go along with it but inwardly despise them." Do it need a label, no it doesn't - for the reasons you said. We agree. Does it hurt to go along with it? Yes, do you really think that all they want is for people to use the correct pronouns and then all their demands are met and the problem will go away??? The pronouns are just step 1, a minor concession that acknowledges further concessions must be made. Americans are very good at seeing this ahead of time, British people are much more parochial. | |||
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" Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. Examples of anyone trying to get the law to force people to refer to others as 'gender fluid'? " Many, google: "Oxford teacher faces action over 'misgendering' pupil". | |||
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" If I am going to look to anyone to help form my opinion on what I believe about sex and gender, it will be someone who demonstrably has shown that they have direct experience of education in gender studies and issues, biological sex and someone who shows knowledge of trans people and their gender experiences, specifically from spending time with people within that community. . I don't expect everyone to agree with my view and the view of trans people, but at least start using the terminology correctly when having your debate, terminology that was created and bourne out of the trans debate itself. It just makes you look like an uneducated fool and shows that you don't know what you're actually debating about. You get to define your view but you don't get to do that. Y redefining actual terminology when you use it incorrectly. Not sure why you've quoted me there. I'm a gender fluid person who has studied gender academically and has written a postgrad thesis related to gender. But sure. I'm the 'uneducated fool'. I wasn't referring to you by he way. I replied to your quote with a comment of support but it didn't show up. The rest of my message, directed elsewhere, did however. I posted a message of support to your statement separately in the end, which is there above somewhere in the thread.
As an aside, I still see (elsewhere) terminology being misused and people contradicting themselves again. Ignorance seems like a happy place to be.
I haven't read all of the thread, but I am very interested in the philosophy of trans theory and you seem to be someone who can address this issue with intelligence
Can I ask you if you think gender is completely subjective. I. E. I that one's gender is a matter for the individual themselves and that when someone asserts they are a man or a woman or whatever, it is not possible to contradict them?
I assume this question and commentary is directed towards me? Thank you, however apologies if I have got his wrong. A great question to ask either way
Gender is how someone self identifies themselves in terms of sex. It is subjective to the person. Biological sex is a different term. For some people these two things match, and for some they don't. I guess if someone wanted to try and contradict someone else's gender by not accepting it, it is kind of irrelevant as it wouldn't change that persons gender. Some people don't believe in gender/that you can't self define it if it's different to biological sex but that's a different debate. It's the terminology that's key here.
I did post a more detailed reply at the top of the thread (post 12 I believe), but to summarise my opinion, I personally don't believe that *gender* is *binary*. I believe in the *gender spectrum* therefore I believe that *gender fluidity* does exist.
I do believe that the majority of people classify themselves to be one of the two "main" *genders*. But I do believe in a spectrum outside of these.
Everything written between an asterix I am expressing as accepted terminology for the sake of clarity and understanding.
No one has to agree with my opinion on the above per se, however the main issue here is people using terminology incorrectly to explain their views, and as a result mislabelling and contradicting entirely the opinions they are trying to express. And continuing to use the same terminology incorrectly.
People are literally contradicting themselves within single sentences, let alone paragraphs or entire posts.
People don't have to agree with my viewpoint but you don't get to redefine a whole terminology just because you didn't understand the definition of the terminology properly in the first place. Educate yourself on the definitions of the terms you are using if you are attempting to have a proper debate. Especially if you are trying to use those terms to explain your view."Thanks for that explanation. The difficulty I have with what you say is this. For words to mean anything they have to have a definition accepted by all who use them. If the definition of any word is completely subjective they become literally meaningless as no has any idea what is meant by the word. Hence if the term "woman", say is completely subjective, then it doesn't actually mean anything. If someone has a Penis and testicles and behaves and dresses in a conventional masculine way and yet says she is a woman and we can't dispute that, then there is no objective definition of what a woman is. Basically for that reason I think the idea of subjective gender identity is logically incoherent. Either there is an objective definition of "man" or "woman" in which case some people who claim those definitions can be excluded from them or there isn't, in which case saying you are a "woman" says as little about you as saying your name is Doreen. | |||
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" Would you want to contradict a gay person? Tell them they are wrong about their homosexuality? It’s for the professionals to test our resolve and our certainty of our feelings. As mentioned a couple of posts back, we are put through lots of hoops to try to out the mentally ill and the fantasists. As I mentioned earlier, the hormones we receive are a danger to us if not properly monitored and so no medic would prescribe them unless they were certain we had a dysphoria that needed help to overcome. That's fine. You are saying there is some sort of objective test for gender. From what you have said it's for professionals to decide if someone's gender identity is genuine. It must follow from that that some people fail to pass the professional test. Hence an objective test. On the gay point, yes if someone said they were gay but had never had sex with someone of the same gender and showed no discernible attraction to the said gender, then yes I would question whether they were, in fact, gay. Just as I would question someone who had never voted anything but Labour saying they were a Conservative. " Staying on the subject of gic professionals pressing us to be sure before they intervene, what in saying is they don’t make it easy for us. By that I mean they don’t just accept our word without some proof of commitment on our part. You need to be living as your true gender. Change your name. Be known as your gender at work and on your identity documentation. Make an effort to alter your appearance to show yourself as that gender. They then counsel you and quiz you and make you wait years. Imagine how hard it is to appear reasonably as your correct gender without hormones or surgery. F to M are trying to squash their breasts. Form a convincing bulge. Hide their hips. M to f are fighting beard growth. Body hair. Muscles. Baldness. Squashing tender parts away. To be honest, if you stand your ground and jump through their hoops they will eventually intervene but it’s not a quick process. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix. I could be wrong but i understood the person to be saying gender fluid people are unstable. My understanding is that a trans person recognises that they want to live in an identity different to the one they were born to, they 'transition' to it. This implies they appreciate the importance of the categories male and female. I don't see anything mentally unstable in that. A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. It's the ideology of what I call radical subjectivism - that an individual can make their own definitions re their identity and that that definition cannot be challenged on the basis of objective categories. As an old fashioned Marxist materialist, I don't hold with it. Yup, you can find a long piece on Marxist matrrialism on the website of... thadddeus russell. Well that's the philosophy that is being used by very very far left groups who want to establish a principle of control (i.e. you must use the pronouns i say) and then extrapolate the principle into other privileges. You can see this in Berkley, former home of one Judith Butler, where pupils of colour (their words, not mine) are demanding they should be allowed to sit exams at home and not in the exam hall. " A classic example of using ideology to advance the interests of one's own social group as Marx said was the function of all ideologies and religions | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix. I could be wrong but i understood the person to be saying gender fluid people are unstable. My understanding is that a trans person recognises that they want to live in an identity different to the one they were born to, they 'transition' to it. This implies they appreciate the importance of the categories male and female. I don't see anything mentally unstable in that. A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. I meant,does 'gender fluidity' really need a label? If it's behaviour that we all do to some extent.? As for labelling individual people.I believe that asking is much more effective than demanding. if someone asks to be called 'she' 'he' 'they' or even 'your majesty',what does it hurt me to go along with that? If they demand it,I may go along with it but inwardly despise them. Do it need a label, no it doesn't - for the reasons you said. We agree. Does it hurt to go along with it? Yes, do you really think that all they want is for people to use the correct pronouns and then all their demands are met and the problem will go away??? The pronouns are just step 1, a minor concession that acknowledges further concessions must be made. Americans are very good at seeing this ahead of time, British people are much more parochial. " Isn't that just a 'slippery slope' argument? What further concessions are being demanded? And conceding to a request (not a demand) does not necessarily lead to conceding to further requests. | |||
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"Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex."  uh | |||
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"A couple of questions I'd like to ask. Is being mentally ill necessarily a bad thing? If I'm told that I am mentally ill because I once felt a certain way,yet I hold down a job,I pay my bills on time,I take care of myself and I've never killed anyone,,,in what way is 'mental illness' a problem? If people are told that they should seek help but it turns out that the most effective form of help is to physically transition,should they not be enabled and assisted to go ahead and do just that?" Nothing wrong with admitting to a mental illness. Transgender people are not mentally ill though so I’m not sure what you’re asking. | |||
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" Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. Examples of anyone trying to get the law to force people to refer to others as 'gender fluid'? Many, google: "Oxford teacher faces action over 'misgendering' pupil". " You mean the teacher who misgendered a trans boy? Being trans, again, for the third time this thread, is not the same as gender fluid. I thought you knew the difference between trans and gender fluid, and fully supported the rights of the former? No? | |||
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" Would you want to contradict a gay person? Tell them they are wrong about their homosexuality? It’s for the professionals to test our resolve and our certainty of our feelings. As mentioned a couple of posts back, we are put through lots of hoops to try to out the mentally ill and the fantasists. As I mentioned earlier, the hormones we receive are a danger to us if not properly monitored and so no medic would prescribe them unless they were certain we had a dysphoria that needed help to overcome. That's fine. You are saying there is some sort of objective test for gender. From what you have said it's for professionals to decide if someone's gender identity is genuine. It must follow from that that some people fail to pass the professional test. Hence an objective test. On the gay point, yes if someone said they were gay but had never had sex with someone of the same gender and showed no discernible attraction to the said gender, then yes I would question whether they were, in fact, gay. Just as I would question someone who had never voted anything but Labour saying they were a Conservative. Staying on the subject of gic professionals pressing us to be sure before they intervene, what in saying is they don’t make it easy for us. By that I mean they don’t just accept our word without some proof of commitment on our part. You need to be living as your true gender. Change your name. Be known as your gender at work and on your identity documentation. Make an effort to alter your appearance to show yourself as that gender. They then counsel you and quiz you and make you wait years. Imagine how hard it is to appear reasonably as your correct gender without hormones or surgery. F to M are trying to squash their breasts. Form a convincing bulge. Hide their hips. M to f are fighting beard growth. Body hair. Muscles. Baldness. Squashing tender parts away. To be honest, if you stand your ground and jump through their hoops they will eventually intervene but it’s not a quick process. " If you would like an idea of time too - it has taken me 10 years to officially transition. To be honest I hadn't quite realised that until I was filling in the paperwork for my Gender Recognition Certificate where you have to put down dates and supply proof. And mine was actually quite quick as I didn't have to do the 2 years "living the role". | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Having spent quite a number of hours (and money) in the psychiatrists office.Should I now demand my money back because he never once said ''you're mental,that's what you are. It's wrong!!!''. So called experts,huh! What do they know? I was just thinking the same. During my transition I have been complimented on my mental stability and sensibility. I have never once been offered or even had a hint from any of them that I need further support to help with being "unstable" or whatever else people want to accuse me of being. If I was mentally ill I would not have been allowed to transition as it then puts the doctors and psychiatrists in the firing line and they risk being sued because if I was mentally ill transitioning wouldn't suddenly stop me from being ill if it was a problem with my brain causing the issue that psychiatry could fix. I could be wrong but i understood the person to be saying gender fluid people are unstable. My understanding is that a trans person recognises that they want to live in an identity different to the one they were born to, they 'transition' to it. This implies they appreciate the importance of the categories male and female. I don't see anything mentally unstable in that. A person who believes they can switch between male and female, potentially on a daily basis, does strike me as unstable. But then i see no inherent contradiction in man wishing to dress up as a woman some days and other days not, without the desire for a transition. He's still a man and i don't see the problem or see him as less of a man. In short, Im not sure what problem gender fluid people are trying to solve and hence they seem confused in the very least. Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. I meant,does 'gender fluidity' really need a label? If it's behaviour that we all do to some extent.? As for labelling individual people.I believe that asking is much more effective than demanding. if someone asks to be called 'she' 'he' 'they' or even 'your majesty',what does it hurt me to go along with that? If they demand it,I may go along with it but inwardly despise them. Do it need a label, no it doesn't - for the reasons you said. We agree. Does it hurt to go along with it? Yes, do you really think that all they want is for people to use the correct pronouns and then all their demands are met and the problem will go away??? The pronouns are just step 1, a minor concession that acknowledges further concessions must be made. Americans are very good at seeing this ahead of time, British people are much more parochial. Isn't that just a 'slippery slope' argument? What further concessions are being demanded? And conceding to a request (not a demand) does not necessarily lead to conceding to further requests." Interesting question but you've strongly implied that you struggle to see the need for this, as i do, so I'd question why we need to support something that doesn't appear to stand on it's own merits!? | |||
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" Would you want to contradict a gay person? Tell them they are wrong about their homosexuality? It’s for the professionals to test our resolve and our certainty of our feelings. As mentioned a couple of posts back, we are put through lots of hoops to try to out the mentally ill and the fantasists. As I mentioned earlier, the hormones we receive are a danger to us if not properly monitored and so no medic would prescribe them unless they were certain we had a dysphoria that needed help to overcome. That's fine. You are saying there is some sort of objective test for gender. From what you have said it's for professionals to decide if someone's gender identity is genuine. It must follow from that that some people fail to pass the professional test. Hence an objective test. On the gay point, yes if someone said they were gay but had never had sex with someone of the same gender and showed no discernible attraction to the said gender, then yes I would question whether they were, in fact, gay. Just as I would question someone who had never voted anything but Labour saying they were a Conservative. Staying on the subject of gic professionals pressing us to be sure before they intervene, what in saying is they don’t make it easy for us. By that I mean they don’t just accept our word without some proof of commitment on our part. You need to be living as your true gender. Change your name. Be known as your gender at work and on your identity documentation. Make an effort to alter your appearance to show yourself as that gender. They then counsel you and quiz you and make you wait years. Imagine how hard it is to appear reasonably as your correct gender without hormones or surgery. F to M are trying to squash their breasts. Form a convincing bulge. Hide their hips. M to f are fighting beard growth. Body hair. Muscles. Baldness. Squashing tender parts away. To be honest, if you stand your ground and jump through their hoops they will eventually intervene but it’s not a quick process. If you would like an idea of time too - it has taken me 10 years to officially transition. To be honest I hadn't quite realised that until I was filling in the paperwork for my Gender Recognition Certificate where you have to put down dates and supply proof. And mine was actually quite quick as I didn't have to do the 2 years "living the role"."
Where’ve you been hiding? Always great to have your input. | |||
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" Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. Examples of anyone trying to get the law to force people to refer to others as 'gender fluid'? Many, google: "Oxford teacher faces action over 'misgendering' pupil". You mean the teacher who misgendered a trans boy? Being trans, again, for the third time this thread, is not the same as gender fluid. I thought you knew the difference between trans and gender fluid, and fully supported the rights of the former? No? " The pupil wasn't trans, they were gender fluid, so please stop using slight of hand at every oppprtunity. | |||
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Where’ve you been hiding? Always great to have your input. "I haven't been hiding, my ramblings are just lost amongst all the other comments | |||
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" Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. Examples of anyone trying to get the law to force people to refer to others as 'gender fluid'? Many, google: "Oxford teacher faces action over 'misgendering' pupil". You mean the teacher who misgendered a trans boy? Being trans, again, for the third time this thread, is not the same as gender fluid. I thought you knew the difference between trans and gender fluid, and fully supported the rights of the former? No? The pupil wasn't trans, they were gender fluid, so please stop using slight of hand at every oppprtunity. " http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-41966554 "the student identifies as a boy" Not as gender fluid. It's not slight of hand in the least. It's fact checking and accuracy. You yourself drew the distinction between people who are trans and 'tosspots' who are gender fluid, so its hardly a minor detail. If you want to include trans people in your criticism, then just be honest about it. | |||
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" Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. Examples of anyone trying to get the law to force people to refer to others as 'gender fluid'? Many, google: "Oxford teacher faces action over 'misgendering' pupil". You mean the teacher who misgendered a trans boy? Being trans, again, for the third time this thread, is not the same as gender fluid. I thought you knew the difference between trans and gender fluid, and fully supported the rights of the former? No? The pupil wasn't trans, they were gender fluid, so please stop using slight of hand at every oppprtunity. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-41966554 "the student identifies as a boy" Not as gender fluid. It's not slight of hand in the least. It's fact checking and accuracy. You yourself drew the distinction between people who are trans and 'tosspots' who are gender fluid, so its hardly a minor detail. If you want to include trans people in your criticism, then just be honest about it. " Identifies as a boy means gender fluid. If they were trans they would have been transitioning or have transitioned. You are now the one conflating gender fluid and trans. | |||
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" If I am going to look to anyone to help form my opinion on what I believe about sex and gender, it will be someone who demonstrably has shown that they have direct experience of education in gender studies and issues, biological sex and someone who shows knowledge of trans people and their gender experiences, specifically from spending time with people within that community. . I don't expect everyone to agree with my view and the view of trans people, but at least start using the terminology correctly when having your debate, terminology that was created and bourne out of the trans debate itself. It just makes you look like an uneducated fool and shows that you don't know what you're actually debating about. You get to define your view but you don't get to do that. Y redefining actual terminology when you use it incorrectly. Not sure why you've quoted me there. I'm a gender fluid person who has studied gender academically and has written a postgrad thesis related to gender. But sure. I'm the 'uneducated fool'. I wasn't referring to you by he way. I replied to your quote with a comment of support but it didn't show up. The rest of my message, directed elsewhere, did however. I posted a message of support to your statement separately in the end, which is there above somewhere in the thread.
As an aside, I still see (elsewhere) terminology being misused and people contradicting themselves again. Ignorance seems like a happy place to be.
I haven't read all of the thread, but I am very interested in the philosophy of trans theory and you seem to be someone who can address this issue with intelligence
Can I ask you if you think gender is completely subjective. I. E. I that one's gender is a matter for the individual themselves and that when someone asserts they are a man or a woman or whatever, it is not possible to contradict them?
I assume this question and commentary is directed towards me? Thank you, however apologies if I have got his wrong. A great question to ask either way
Gender is how someone self identifies themselves in terms of sex. It is subjective to the person. Biological sex is a different term. For some people these two things match, and for some they don't. I guess if someone wanted to try and contradict someone else's gender by not accepting it, it is kind of irrelevant as it wouldn't change that persons gender. Some people don't believe in gender/that you can't self define it if it's different to biological sex but that's a different debate. It's the terminology that's key here.
I did post a more detailed reply at the top of the thread (post 12 I believe), but to summarise my opinion, I personally don't believe that *gender* is *binary*. I believe in the *gender spectrum* therefore I believe that *gender fluidity* does exist.
I do believe that the majority of people classify themselves to be one of the two "main" *genders*. But I do believe in a spectrum outside of these.
Everything written between an asterix I am expressing as accepted terminology for the sake of clarity and understanding.
No one has to agree with my opinion on the above per se, however the main issue here is people using terminology incorrectly to explain their views, and as a result mislabelling and contradicting entirely the opinions they are trying to express. And continuing to use the same terminology incorrectly.
People are literally contradicting themselves within single sentences, let alone paragraphs or entire posts.
People don't have to agree with my viewpoint but you don't get to redefine a whole terminology just because you didn't understand the definition of the terminology properly in the first place. Educate yourself on the definitions of the terms you are using if you are attempting to have a proper debate. Especially if you are trying to use those terms to explain your view.
Thanks for that explanation. The difficulty I have with what you say is this.
For words to mean anything they have to have a definition accepted by all who use them. If the definition of any word is completely subjective they become literally meaningless as no has any idea what is meant by the word.
Hence if the term "woman", say is completely subjective, then it doesn't actually mean anything. If someone has a Penis and testicles and behaves and dresses in a conventional masculine way and yet says she is a woman and we can't dispute that, then there is no objective definition of what a woman is.
Basically for that reason I think the idea of subjective gender identity is logically incoherent. Either there is an objective definition of "man" or "woman" in which case some people who claim those definitions can be excluded from them or there isn't, in which case saying you are a "woman" says as little about you as saying your name is Doreen. "What is important to note here in this debate as a whole is that there is a difference between: The *definition* or *terminology* of a word or an idea And Whether you personally subscribe to or support the existence of the idea itself For example, a person may not believe that *gender fluidity* exists, but that doesn't mean that person gets to redefine the actual term *gender fluid* or try and make that term mean something else. You just state that you don't believe in it or you state what you do believe in. Utilise other terms that do describe what you think or mean. Of course people do subscribe all sorts of meanings to different things in language generally, but that doesn't bear any relevance to people changing actual established terminology just because they don't believe the term itself exists in the real world. It doesn't change what the definition is. | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Fortunately mental health professionals disagree with you. But alas, it's amateur hour on the internet this morning... That's an unfair comment. There must be some reason why there is such a rise in transgender people. Is there an increase in the numbers of trans people? Or is there a rise in the number of openly trans people? The number of children referred to the NHS as a result of transgender feelings and confusion about their gender has quadrupled in the last 5 years. They are children. I doubt that can be put down to a rise in them being openly trans. " because all this adult confusion about gender benders in the is now confusing the children.Wait What will we have to deal with next People who really want to become Animals because they feel like they were born into the wrong bodys a based on similarities found in personalities. I agree its a mental illness.And society is burying its head in the sand of contradictions of messed up conciseness. We have bigger problems on the horizon. | |||
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" Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. Examples of anyone trying to get the law to force people to refer to others as 'gender fluid'? Many, google: "Oxford teacher faces action over 'misgendering' pupil". You mean the teacher who misgendered a trans boy? Being trans, again, for the third time this thread, is not the same as gender fluid. I thought you knew the difference between trans and gender fluid, and fully supported the rights of the former? No? The pupil wasn't trans, they were gender fluid, so please stop using slight of hand at every oppprtunity. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-41966554 "the student identifies as a boy" Not as gender fluid. It's not slight of hand in the least. It's fact checking and accuracy. You yourself drew the distinction between people who are trans and 'tosspots' who are gender fluid, so its hardly a minor detail. If you want to include trans people in your criticism, then just be honest about it. Identifies as a boy means gender fluid. If they were trans they would have been transitioning or have transitioned. You are now the one conflating gender fluid and trans. " No, that isn't what gender fluid means. And a person doesnt have to be transitioning or transitioned to consider themselves trans. Almost impressively wrong. | |||
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"Transguy Question for you. Born a woman but transitioned into a man. Now live as a man with a surgically constructed penis but kept your vagina surely this now makes you just plain great "Hahaha! I doubt many would agree but thank you! What can I say? I enjoy sex too much to give it up | |||
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"I'm all for gender as a spectrum, but i have absolutely no time for 'gender fluid' toss pots. I also think it's insulting to trans people to even put them in the same category, they are essentially opposite beliefs. Society needs all sorts of people to function, actually it doesn't. It's more factually accurate to say that societies that are liberal and allow individuals (that aren't hurting anyone) to flourish end up richer for it, literally richer. Most people would rather live in a wealthy country than a poor one. This is in no small part because a small proportion of people generate most the wealth and innovation in a country and they tend to be a bit odd. I can speak better about masculinity; there are your uber macho lumberjacks, beer swelling, loud farting types and your quiet, computer geeks that look like they'd struggle to make love to their right hand. Both are valuable in society, both are men. It's incredibly unhelpful to start inventing new categories that don't exist, people need to grow the fuck up and deal with the complexity of a spectrum rather than desperately hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in. Your statements are completely contradictory. In the last paragraph you seem to imply that "gender" doesn't have to dictate your personality, traits or interests as person. I think what you're trying to get across is your belief that there are *gender stereotypes* in society which don't need to be adhered to in order for you to authentically be your gender. This is called *gender expression*. This is the equivalent of a man who (for a simple example) cries at the drop of a hat and who likes to wear pink, and a woman who likes to wear masculine clothing and cut their hair short. Society tells us what is masculine and feminine and gives inanimate objects, colours, clothing, interests and even emotions a "gender". This doesn't have to mean anything about your gender itself. The two accepted genders are male and female and most people think these are the only two *gender identities* and that you are biologically born into either. This idea is called *gender binary*. *Gender spectrum* implies the idea that gender is NOT binary, it is not necessarily set to two genders and is not limited to set values and can vary along a continuum. You can find yourself at any place along it and not be "set into a box" in terms of what gender you feel you are. You can indentify as one, both, more or vary between at any stage. Some also consider themselves *agender*, someone who doesn't identify with any gender at all. This doesn't have to be linked to the biological sex you were born as. This also encompasses trans people who identify with a gender not the same as the one they were biologically born with. For most, gender identity is about how you personally identify yourself as. It has no relation to biological sex/sex at birth. Some people's gender identity is the same as their biological sex. These people are *CIS*. For you to say: "I am all for the gender spectrum" "we need to deal with the complexity of a spectrum instead of hunting for tidy boxes to fit everyone in" "people need to grow the fuck up" and then go on to say that : "I have absolutely no time for gender fluid toss pots" "It's insulting to put trans people in the same category as they are essentially opposite beliefs" demonstrates that you are contradicting the terms that you're choosing to use and imply, and are probably not as open minded or as thoroughly considered on what your opinions actually, are as you thought. Either you believe In the "complexity" of the gender spectrum and we should "grow the fuck up" and stop trying to fit everyone into gender boxes (therefore accepting gender fluidity), or you believe in only two genders (whether born into them biologically or not) that the "gender fluid are toss pots and an insult to trans people". Which is it? Thanks for your points, but my points are in no way contradictory. I think we're getting confused about gender as a spectrum here. The way i was using it means exactly what the example i gave means, there are two categories that 99%+ people fit into. I appreciate there are intersex people and they do fall outside what I'm saying. There are only two catgeories but they are broad categories. I gave specific examples of how two very different men are in the same category. I would encourage you to listen to Thaddeus Russell on YouTube and his interview on the Joe Rogan Experience on gender. He supports gender fluidity and the logical conclusion of this view is, for example, that homosexuals can't be masculine. I totally reject such a view point and consider it the height of stupidity. It's based on a very narrow definition of two genders that a lot of people obviously don't fit into, this is a strawman. Trans people recognise the importance of gender and hence go to great lengths to change their gender. Gender fluid people reject the importance of gender and demand that they need not be acknowledged in either category, hence their preference for gender neutral pronouns, whilst trans people generally want the pronoun of their transitioned sex. I'm not sure that gender fluid people do reject the importance of gender; it seems to me to be just as possible that they regard gender as vital, but fluid, so that they can move between genders as they choose or need to. I think people who reject gender as a concept are more likely to be called agender. I think your generalization about pronouns is unhelpful too... Gender fluid people are literally pushing for laws in countries like canada which ensure they get called certain pronouns so it's really not a generalisation. I encourage you to listen to someone like Thaddeus Russell who attempts to explain gender fluid in academic terms. " Isn't Thaddeus Russell a historian? He's certainly not a name I recognize from queer or gender studies. The canadian law you refer to, I think, is the one which makes it unlawful to misgender a person after they have asked you to use a specific pronoun. I'm not sure what the relevance of that is to your point - you maybe need to research mroe widely than the views of a sacked professor on that well known academic platform, YOutube. | |||
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" Switching between male and female on a daily basis would probably be impossible but aren't those fluid people switching between 'masculine' and 'feminine'? Surely everybody does that, to an extent, all the time. I wouldn't necessarily call that unstable but I wouldn't necessarily say it needs a label either. But they are the ones demanding it needs a label and trying to use the force of the law to get people to call them that label. Hence why i say it's part of a political ideology. Examples of anyone trying to get the law to force people to refer to others as 'gender fluid'? Many, google: "Oxford teacher faces action over 'misgendering' pupil". You mean the teacher who misgendered a trans boy? Being trans, again, for the third time this thread, is not the same as gender fluid. I thought you knew the difference between trans and gender fluid, and fully supported the rights of the former? No? The pupil wasn't trans, they were gender fluid, so please stop using slight of hand at every oppprtunity. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-41966554 "the student identifies as a boy" Not as gender fluid. It's not slight of hand in the least. It's fact checking and accuracy. You yourself drew the distinction between people who are trans and 'tosspots' who are gender fluid, so its hardly a minor detail. If you want to include trans people in your criticism, then just be honest about it. Identifies as a boy means gender fluid. If they were trans they would have been transitioning or have transitioned. You are now the one conflating gender fluid and trans. No, that isn't what gender fluid means. And a person doesnt have to be transitioning or transitioned to consider themselves trans. Almost impressively wrong. " Of course they do, you are literally merging the two! What nonsense. Let's leave it there and the average, reasonably intelligent reader of the forum can work out who is talking rubbish. | |||
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"A couple of questions I'd like to ask. Is being mentally ill necessarily a bad thing? If I'm told that I am mentally ill because I once felt a certain way,yet I hold down a job,I pay my bills on time,I take care of myself and I've never killed anyone,,,in what way is 'mental illness' a problem? If people are told that they should seek help but it turns out that the most effective form of help is to physically transition,should they not be enabled and assisted to go ahead and do just that? Nothing wrong with admitting to a mental illness. Transgender people are not mentally ill though so I’m not sure what you’re asking. " Some guy said earlier in the thread that trans people are mentally ill. I'm just saying 'so what?' Maybe I am,maybe I ain't. I'm harmless and it cost the state less to treat me physically than to make me undergo therapy to try to brainwash me into that archaic way of thinking. (like they could change my mind anyhow..HA). | |||
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" No, that isn't what gender fluid means. And a person doesnt have to be transitioning or transitioned to consider themselves trans. Almost impressively wrong. " Of course they do, you are literally merging the two! What nonsense. Let's leave it there and the average, reasonably intelligent reader of the forum can work out who is talking rubbish" I'd honestly recommend a basic Google on these facts, to you and anyone else who thinks you have to start transitioning to be trans. (trans is not short for transitioning!) | |||
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"It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Fortunately mental health professionals disagree with you. But alas, it's amateur hour on the internet this morning..." "It's a mental illness which needs treatment. These people who believe they are gender fluid or whatever other bullshit they try and say these days are mentally unstable. It's wrong! Fortunately mental health professionals disagree with you. But alas, it's amateur hour on the internet this morning..." Not all mental health professionals agree, in fact there is a growing movement of such professionals world wide fighting against giving hormonal treatments to under 18's as they feel it is abuse. That these children need therapy not meds to stop them going through puberty or start growing breasts. So your statement is a touch simplistic. I do believe it is a mental health condition and I will never understand why the general medical community backs it, but I guess there is always the fear of being called transphobic. If an anorexic person tells the doctor they feel fat they are given treatment for a mental health disorder, I see little difference in a man saying he feels like a woman or vice versa. I feel tgat is a valid argument, but on this thead anyone thinking similar are told they are still in the dark ages. With an eyeroll... well fìne. And yet again in this thread those with any opinion outside that of the transgender are shot down, people called amateurs, stupid, uneducated and accused of hate crimes. As for your pronouns that I'll "fucking well use" that's the attitude that makes me shake my head and say "fuck you". Does not believing in people being born in the wrong bodies make me transphobic? Or would I only be transphobic if I based my actions towards trans people on the fact they were trans? Because I feel the attitudes I have been bombarded with lately are definitely making me phobic... it doesn't seem to matter about anyone elses rights, as long as you have yours | |||
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