FabSwingers.com > Forums > Scotland > indyref#2
indyref#2
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And if the yes camp wins next time will we have another brexit like fiasco awaiting what kind of indy deal we will have. After 1 ,2 ,3 or 10 no deal votes on the terms of our independence then when we re do the indy vote to get back into the Uk team, Westminster will have all the aces , we will be waaaay worse off than we are now. | |||
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"Here we go again............" Surely not, we can’t separate from EU without fkn that up, what chance of getting this right, erm zero IMO, how many fights do politicians have to lose before dealing with the real issues, ie policing and health services | |||
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"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2" I voted to leave, same as I voted for independence, if we had for independence we would be doing the exact same now as we would have then, trying to come to a deal with the EU just the average person who doesn’t understand the political system wouldn’t have known as they didn’t make that very public, the Brexit deal was a bit of a sweetener for Scotland if you ask me to try avoid and indy2 but all it’s done is make the snp dig heels in more tbh it’s a complete fiasco and next time round I’ll be going back to voting with the Lib Dem’s again I’ve lost all confidence in the snp as this is exactly what the main goal in the original Indy ref was and that was an eu exit so Scotland had more control over its own fishing farming oil etc, absolutely no way if we do Indy again the snp are going to make a better deal with the eu because we won’t have the uk supporting any bills we get to get passed because believe it or not the rest of the eu would be our best allies in eu. Folk ought to start doing their research properly and reading up on policies and legislation | |||
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"Is there going to be another independence referendum???" Good ol sturgeon banging the drum of having before 2021 elections  | |||
"Is there going to be another independence referendum??? Good ol sturgeon banging the drum of having before 2021 elections "Ah. I stopped watching the news about 6 months ago, too boring. | |||
"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2" If I recall correctly the question was should the UK (of which Scotland already voted to stay part of.), leave the EU,, and the UK voted yes.. (I voted to remain). So Scotland didn't vote no to brexit, because that wasn't the question. | |||
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"If Scotland gets independents and tries to stay in the EU Spain will try to veto it. To stop Catalonia doing the same " Good grief! This old argument again?! Spain has already declared they won't veto it! | |||
"Im not for independence but for the sake of someone perhaps converting me. Im all ears . What will our currency be What will our military and defence capabilities be. How much will it cost me. How will we afford the living standards we have at the moment. What will happen with the NHS Loads more things i want to know. Unfortunately i cant vote yes with the standard SNP reply last time around , to quote " ach it will be awright"
And if the yes camp wins next time will we have another brexit like fiasco awaiting what kind of indy deal we will have. After 1 ,2 ,3 or 10 no deal votes on the terms of our independence then when we re do the indy vote to get back into the Uk team, Westminster will have all the aces , we will be waaaay worse off than we are now. "I can only offer a suggestion for your first question We could use the "Tamson" made up of 100 "Bairns" - alternatively just go with the "Punt" because it rhymes with Bank Manager" | |||
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"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2 If I recall correctly the question was should the UK (of which Scotland already voted to stay part of.), leave the EU,, and the UK voted yes.. (I voted to remain). So Scotland didn't vote no to brexit, because that wasn't the question. " the majority of Scotland voted to stay in the EU so yes they did vote to remain but as down south as per have the majority we are dragged out with them | |||
"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2 If I recall correctly the question was should the UK (of which Scotland already voted to stay part of.), leave the EU,, and the UK voted yes.. (I voted to remain). So Scotland didn't vote no to brexit, because that wasn't the question. the majority of Scotland voted to stay in the EU so yes they did vote to remain but as down south as per have the majority we are dragged out with them " This is why indyref2 is a bad idea. We will. Ignore the results of democracy until we get what we want.. The will of the people will always be ignored... Unless their will agrees with mine. | |||
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"But the will of Scotland got ignored? The majority voted remain! The sooner we become an independent country and then have the majority rule." Brexit wasn’t a vote for Scotland though, it was a vote for the UK, Scotland voted to remain in UK, all home nations then voted as the UK. | |||
"But the will of Scotland got ignored? The majority voted remain! The sooner we become an independent country and then have the majority rule. Brexit wasn’t a vote for Scotland though, it was a vote for the UK, Scotland voted to remain in UK, all home nations then voted as the UK." And indy ref2 is itself a disregard for the will of the Scottish people because they voted no in what was said to be a once in a generation vote... | |||
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"But the will of Scotland got ignored? The majority voted remain! The sooner we become an independent country and then have the majority rule. Brexit wasn’t a vote for Scotland though, it was a vote for the UK, Scotland voted to remain in UK, all home nations then voted as the UK. And indy ref2 is itself a disregard for the will of the Scottish people because they voted no in what was said to be a once in a generation vote... " but during that fiasco they promised Scotland wouldn't be dragged out the EU. So? | |||
"Omg I know this.. But the people of Scotland voted to remain in the EU. And because we are never going to be the majority in the UK..which we are part of I do get this..our vote will always be over ruled! So basically Scotland vote on anything to do with the uk is pointless!" Not pointless Goody, we do have a voice, just not loud enough to drown out the others  | |||
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"Omg I know this.. But the people of Scotland voted to remain in the EU. And because we are never going to be the majority in the UK..which we are part of I do get this..our vote will always be over ruled! So basically Scotland vote on anything to do with the uk is pointless!" Like it it not.. This is what the people of Scotland democratically voted for.. | |||
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"A fair percentage of people who voted to stay in the UK did so under false promise and scaremongering. Similar to a lot of people who voted to leave EU.. it's difficult to know which way to vote given the way the media manipulates opinions and delivers them as facts. That being said.. it's a #yes from me again.. Westminster won't leave the hands of the Tory party for the foreseeable future and that is never going to end well for scotland "I'm the flip side a lot of people who voted yes to stay in the UK did so on flase promises and pie in the sky promises.. And... As I'm sure has been said elsewhere.. An independent scotland is not independent if ruled by the EU. If the question was should Scotland be independent as in completely then the result of that vote would be interesting. | |||
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"My heid is nippin just thinking about it. And I voted yes last time. Major stumbling block for me is that I don't believe a fucking word that comes out of any politician's mouth." That last bit is a big YES!!!! World wide politicians for the most part serve personal power, status and financial greed and fuck all to do with serving their countries or people. We live in a time where government structures are crumbling and something better I hope will come from that. I just hope there is not too much suffering for people in the process. Britain is in the dying throes of its Empire hey day and Westminster is clawing on to its waning power much as other Empires did as they came and went. In terms of indyref... two things... if we are a burden why would Westminster keep us and there is no other country in the world that left British rule and didn’t survive ok so why wouldn’t we. I’m no English hater, we are neighbours not only with England but with every other country in the world. We all need to learn to live on our beautiful blue planet caring for each other. I’d still like my wee part of it to make its own decisions. Jeeze... I need a lie down now | |||
"My heid is nippin just thinking about it. And I voted yes last time. Major stumbling block for me is that I don't believe a fucking word that comes out of any politician's mouth. That last bit is a big YES!!!! World wide politicians for the most part serve personal power, status and financial greed and fuck all to do with serving their countries or people. We live in a time where government structures are crumbling and something better I hope will come from that. I just hope there is not too much suffering for people in the process. Britain is in the dying throes of its Empire hey day and Westminster is clawing on to its waning power much as other Empires did as they came and went. In terms of indyref... two things... if we are a burden why would Westminster keep us and there is no other country in the world that left British rule and didn’t survive ok so why wouldn’t we. I’m no English hater, we are neighbours not only with England but with every other country in the world. We all need to learn to live on our beautiful blue planet caring for each other. I’d still like my wee part of it to make its own decisions. Jeeze... I need a lie down now "I agree with both goggy and Jane's last statements.. Make our own decisions. Not from Westminster or from Brussels but that has never been put to the vote | |||
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"My heid is nippin just thinking about it. And I voted yes last time. Major stumbling block for me is that I don't believe a fucking word that comes out of any politician's mouth. That last bit is a big YES!!!! World wide politicians for the most part serve personal power, status and financial greed and fuck all to do with serving their countries or people. We live in a time where government structures are crumbling and something better I hope will come from that. I just hope there is not too much suffering for people in the process. Britain is in the dying throes of its Empire hey day and Westminster is clawing on to its waning power much as other Empires did as they came and went. In terms of indyref... two things... if we are a burden why would Westminster keep us and there is no other country in the world that left British rule and didn’t survive ok so why wouldn’t we. I’m no English hater, we are neighbours not only with England but with every other country in the world. We all need to learn to live on our beautiful blue planet caring for each other. I’d still like my wee part of it to make its own decisions. Jeeze... I need a lie down now
I agree with both goggy and Jane's last statements.. Make our own decisions. Not from Westminster or from Brussels but that has never been put to the vote "Goggy talks absolute pish. I, on the other hand, am the resident Fab sage | |||
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"Is there going to be another independence referendum???" No. Although that’s not what they’d have people think | |||
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"My heid is nippin just thinking about it. And I voted yes last time. Major stumbling block for me is that I don't believe a fucking word that comes out of any politician's mouth. That last bit is a big YES!!!! World wide politicians for the most part serve personal power, status and financial greed and fuck all to do with serving their countries or people. We live in a time where government structures are crumbling and something better I hope will come from that. I just hope there is not too much suffering for people in the process. Britain is in the dying throes of its Empire hey day and Westminster is clawing on to its waning power much as other Empires did as they came and went. In terms of indyref... two things... if we are a burden why would Westminster keep us and there is no other country in the world that left British rule and didn’t survive ok so why wouldn’t we. I’m no English hater, we are neighbours not only with England but with every other country in the world. We all need to learn to live on our beautiful blue planet caring for each other. I’d still like my wee part of it to make its own decisions. Jeeze... I need a lie down now
I agree with both goggy and Jane's last statements.. Make our own decisions. Not from Westminster or from Brussels but that has never been put to the vote
Goggy talks absolute pish.
I, on the other hand, am the resident Fab sage "Well said oh wise one  | |||
"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2" We have never had a Vote about if an Independent Scotland should be part of EU. The vote was if the UK should Remain or Leave EU (nothing to do with an Independent Scotland) | |||
"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2 We have never had a Vote about if an Independent Scotland should be part of EU. The vote was if the UK should Remain or Leave EU (nothing to do with an Independent Scotland)" I could be wrong and I’m sure someone will correct me if I am but I think Westminster said as part of its Stay campaign to Scotland that the UK would be staying part of the EU... dinna quote me though  | |||
" I could be wrong and I’m sure someone will correct me if I am but I think Westminster said as part of its Stay campaign to Scotland that the UK would be staying part of the EU... dinna quote me though "Just did. | |||
" I could be wrong and I’m sure someone will correct me if I am but I think Westminster said as part of its Stay campaign to Scotland that the UK would be staying part of the EU... dinna quote me though
Just did. "  | |||
"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2 We have never had a Vote about if an Independent Scotland should be part of EU. The vote was if the UK should Remain or Leave EU (nothing to do with an Independent Scotland) I could be wrong and I’m sure someone will correct me if I am but I think Westminster said as part of its Stay campaign to Scotland that the UK would be staying part of the EU... dinna quote me though "The No campaign didn't quite say vote No and stay in the EU, they stated that a Yes vote would mean leaving the EU. This was disputed by the Yes campaign. As it was never put to the test, we shall never know whose prophecy would have been correct. | |||
"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2 We have never had a Vote about if an Independent Scotland should be part of EU. The vote was if the UK should Remain or Leave EU (nothing to do with an Independent Scotland) I could be wrong and I’m sure someone will correct me if I am but I think Westminster said as part of its Stay campaign to Scotland that the UK would be staying part of the EU... dinna quote me though
The No campaign didn't quite say vote No and stay in the EU, they stated that a Yes vote would mean leaving the EU.
This was disputed by the Yes campaign.
As it was never put to the test, we shall never know whose prophecy would have been correct. "Thanks for clarifying that (not sure clarifying anything can be true in politics mind you... ) | |||
"It was billed as a once in a generation opportunity. Now a couple of years later we are voting again what is it next goals the winner best of 3, they are turning it into a shambles." It's been nearly five years and a lot has happened in that time. 'English Votes for English Laws' despite David Cameron's pleas to "Don't leave us, lead us". Gordon Brown promised 'Virtual Federalism' and promptly disappeared again. 'Vote No to Stay ini the EU' - only for England and Wales to drag Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Gibraltar out of the EU against our wishes. We won't be fooled again. | |||
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I am for independence btw but not for stupid reasons like freedom and what not. | |||
"Independantly run by europe?
I am for independence btw but not for stupid reasons like freedom and what not."44% of UK exports go to the EU. Leaving without a trade deal touted as a complete disaster by many including the SNP but Leave told us getting a trade deal would be easy. 60% of Scottish exports go to rest of UK. Apparently losing that not a disaster according to SNP and easy to get a trade deal. Haven’t we heard this before? Any economist will tell you that breaking ties with your biggest trading partner with no guaranteed trade deal is a potential economic disaster. UK can survive without being part of the EU and Scotland can survive without being part of the UK but both scenarios seem likely to make the respective parties poorer. There’s a bit of referendum fatigue too. | |||
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"Exactly The people that voted no don’t care if they get what Scotland really want because they are all still subservient to the whole uk pish. Uk is a farce Scotland and rest of so called uk all want their own governments and have wanted this for as long as I can remember, at end of day there would never have been a uk or a commonwealth if England hadn’t conquered colonised and murdered city’s towns and countries hundreds of years ago but for some reason uk Scots have no national pride in wanting their own government back and as for all reasons to stay in uk they are mostly lies drummed up by a English government to keep Scotland oppressed see if we would be so much worse off without the rest of the uk why not let us make our own choices in government and make our own mistakes and if we mess it up then I’m sure u can all laugh at us but at least we would be Independent nation again. Let’s face it uk government is laughing stock and it’s getting worse day by day and anyone who can sit there and say we are better off under this government is needing their heads examined and when indref was fought and lost for months the no campaigners only came up with negatives as to why we shouldn’t leave never one positive as to why we would be better off staying " Well said | |||
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"Thanks " We in Scotland have nothing in common with a bunch of old Etonians in Westminster who also take every opportunity to shout down Ian Blackford.... Just saying | |||
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"A fair percentage of people who voted to stay in the UK did so under false promise and scaremongering. Similar to a lot of people who voted to leave EU.. it's difficult to know which way to vote given the way the media manipulates opinions and delivers them as facts. That being said.. it's a #yes from me again.. Westminster won't leave the hands of the Tory party for the foreseeable future and that is never going to end well for scotland
I'm the flip side a lot of people who voted yes to stay in the UK did so on flase promises and pie in the sky promises.. And... As I'm sure has been said elsewhere.. An independent scotland is not independent if ruled by the EU. If the question was should Scotland be independent as in completely then the result of that vote would be interesting. "Im not really sure you have your argument straight? Did you agree or disagree with my original point? As for being ruled by the EU.. we would be in a position to construct a deal with the EU that better suited our needs instead of having our lifelines thrown under a bus to pass through other areas more beneficial to those south of the border.. so many people have fallen victim to the media portrayal that the EU is an all consuming monster.. where in fact it could be said that the UK government has allowed itself to become a huge contributor into the pit through misplaced confidence..  | |||
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"Independantly run by europe?
I am for independence btw but not for stupid reasons like freedom and what not.
44% of UK exports go to the EU. Leaving without a trade deal touted as a complete disaster by many including the SNP but Leave told us getting a trade deal would be easy.
60% of Scottish exports go to rest of UK. Apparently losing that not a disaster according to SNP and easy to get a trade deal. Haven’t we heard this before?
Any economist will tell you that breaking ties with your biggest trading partner with no guaranteed trade deal is a potential economic disaster.
UK can survive without being part of the EU and Scotland can survive without being part of the UK but both scenarios seem likely to make the respective parties poorer.
There’s a bit of referendum fatigue too.
"Why would having control of own affairs mean not trading with others? We have many resources others wish to buy? Every country in the world trades with each other. Wanting to decide our own destiny does not mean cutting every tie with other countries. That’s not happened to any other country that gained independence. | |||
"Independantly run by europe?
I am for independence btw but not for stupid reasons like freedom and what not.
44% of UK exports go to the EU. Leaving without a trade deal touted as a complete disaster by many including the SNP but Leave told us getting a trade deal would be easy.
60% of Scottish exports go to rest of UK. Apparently losing that not a disaster according to SNP and easy to get a trade deal. Haven’t we heard this before?
Any economist will tell you that breaking ties with your biggest trading partner with no guaranteed trade deal is a potential economic disaster.
UK can survive without being part of the EU and Scotland can survive without being part of the UK but both scenarios seem likely to make the respective parties poorer.
There’s a bit of referendum fatigue too.
Why would having control of own affairs mean not trading with others? We have many resources others wish to buy? Every country in the world trades with each other. Wanting to decide our own destiny does not mean cutting every tie with other countries. That’s not happened to any other country that gained independence. "If trade is not a problem then why is everyone so hot and bothered about it in a Brexit scenario? The issue is that trade between UK-EU and Scotland-UK is tariff free. The problem with a split of any kind is that you might not get a trade deal which is tariff free so suddenly it’s more expensive to buy things and your goods are more expensive in export markets. This affects jobs and tax intake for the government and is generally considered to have a negative impact on the economy. The tariffs in the USA-China trade war has had an effect on China’s economy for example. So these things matter. | |||
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"If Scotland was to have gone independent we would have had to agree terms with the eu, yes they wouldn’t have immediately kicked us out providing we had an agreement, we would have been shafted by the eu, and guess what if we get independence we will still get shafted, the uk has been getting shafted by the eu for years, we were one of the richest countries in the world and the eu, we still are somewhat but for all the implementations of eu rule we lose elsewhere that has a much larger detriment to the uk economy, politics and economics SHOULD be mandatory in school and maybe then folk would actually know what they’re talking about if being allowed to vote" Pls tell us how the eu are shafting us and what eu rules have stopped us from being a rich country ? | |||
"Independantly run by europe?
I am for independence btw but not for stupid reasons like freedom and what not.
44% of UK exports go to the EU. Leaving without a trade deal touted as a complete disaster by many including the SNP but Leave told us getting a trade deal would be easy.
60% of Scottish exports go to rest of UK. Apparently losing that not a disaster according to SNP and easy to get a trade deal. Haven’t we heard this before?
Any economist will tell you that breaking ties with your biggest trading partner with no guaranteed trade deal is a potential economic disaster.
UK can survive without being part of the EU and Scotland can survive without being part of the UK but both scenarios seem likely to make the respective parties poorer.
There’s a bit of referendum fatigue too.
Why would having control of own affairs mean not trading with others? We have many resources others wish to buy? Every country in the world trades with each other. Wanting to decide our own destiny does not mean cutting every tie with other countries. That’s not happened to any other country that gained independence.
If trade is not a problem then why is everyone so hot and bothered about it in a Brexit scenario?
The issue is that trade between UK-EU and Scotland-UK is tariff free. The problem with a split of any kind is that you might not get a trade deal which is tariff free so suddenly it’s more expensive to buy things and your goods are more expensive in export markets. This affects jobs and tax intake for the government and is generally considered to have a negative impact on the economy.
The tariffs in the USA-China trade war has had an effect on China’s economy for example. So these things matter.
"I do appreciate these things matter and that there will be things to work out re trade agreements. My point was that they would work out nonetheless. Yes we would make mistakes but we are a resourceful nation and we would also have resounding successes I have no doubts whatsoever. We don't know exactly how independence would work until we have the opportunity to do so. This debate can go on and on with all sorts of speculation with scaremongering by the "we can't do it on our own" camp but at the end of the day I personally would rather my country had its successes and failures unhindered by a dying empire that is terrified of being an even smaller fish in the sea than it already is. As I have already stated this is not an anti english statement - no more that all the other countries that have left the UK to have independence - it's about having the right to say what happens in our wee corner of the world with our resources. Anywho - there have been good comments and as others have said hope it can be with an open mind and a respectful word. | |||
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"Independantly run by europe?
I am for independence btw but not for stupid reasons like freedom and what not.
44% of UK exports go to the EU. Leaving without a trade deal touted as a complete disaster by many including the SNP but Leave told us getting a trade deal would be easy.
60% of Scottish exports go to rest of UK. Apparently losing that not a disaster according to SNP and easy to get a trade deal. Haven’t we heard this before?
Any economist will tell you that breaking ties with your biggest trading partner with no guaranteed trade deal is a potential economic disaster.
UK can survive without being part of the EU and Scotland can survive without being part of the UK but both scenarios seem likely to make the respective parties poorer.
There’s a bit of referendum fatigue too.
Why would having control of own affairs mean not trading with others? We have many resources others wish to buy? Every country in the world trades with each other. Wanting to decide our own destiny does not mean cutting every tie with other countries. That’s not happened to any other country that gained independence.
If trade is not a problem then why is everyone so hot and bothered about it in a Brexit scenario?
The issue is that trade between UK-EU and Scotland-UK is tariff free. The problem with a split of any kind is that you might not get a trade deal which is tariff free so suddenly it’s more expensive to buy things and your goods are more expensive in export markets. This affects jobs and tax intake for the government and is generally considered to have a negative impact on the economy.
The tariffs in the USA-China trade war has had an effect on China’s economy for example. So these things matter.
I do appreciate these things matter and that there will be things to work out re trade agreements. My point was that they would work out nonetheless. Yes we would make mistakes but we are a resourceful nation and we would also have resounding successes I have no doubts whatsoever. We don't know exactly how independence would work until we have the opportunity to do so. This debate can go on and on with all sorts of speculation with scaremongering by the "we can't do it on our own" camp but at the end of the day I personally would rather my country had its successes and failures unhindered by a dying empire that is terrified of being an even smaller fish in the sea than it already is. As I have already stated this is not an anti english statement - no more that all the other countries that have left the UK to have independence - it's about having the right to say what happens in our wee corner of the world with our resources. Anywho - there have been good comments and as others have said hope it can be with an open mind and a respectful word. "Brexit and Scottish Independence are very similar. Both nationalist causes, both taking back control of our future, both selling a vision of a better future, both separating from their biggest trading partner. Ironically neither will acknowledge the similarities. Scotland is pretty much a nothing in the world economy. Around the size of the economic powerhouses of Hungary or Kuwait in GDP terms. Like the Scottish football team we like to think we’re better than the evidence suggests. | |||
"Independantly run by europe?
I am for independence btw but not for stupid reasons like freedom and what not.
44% of UK exports go to the EU. Leaving without a trade deal touted as a complete disaster by many including the SNP but Leave told us getting a trade deal would be easy.
60% of Scottish exports go to rest of UK. Apparently losing that not a disaster according to SNP and easy to get a trade deal. Haven’t we heard this before?
Any economist will tell you that breaking ties with your biggest trading partner with no guaranteed trade deal is a potential economic disaster.
UK can survive without being part of the EU and Scotland can survive without being part of the UK but both scenarios seem likely to make the respective parties poorer.
There’s a bit of referendum fatigue too.
Why would having control of own affairs mean not trading with others? We have many resources others wish to buy? Every country in the world trades with each other. Wanting to decide our own destiny does not mean cutting every tie with other countries. That’s not happened to any other country that gained independence.
If trade is not a problem then why is everyone so hot and bothered about it in a Brexit scenario?
The issue is that trade between UK-EU and Scotland-UK is tariff free. The problem with a split of any kind is that you might not get a trade deal which is tariff free so suddenly it’s more expensive to buy things and your goods are more expensive in export markets. This affects jobs and tax intake for the government and is generally considered to have a negative impact on the economy.
The tariffs in the USA-China trade war has had an effect on China’s economy for example. So these things matter.
I do appreciate these things matter and that there will be things to work out re trade agreements. My point was that they would work out nonetheless. Yes we would make mistakes but we are a resourceful nation and we would also have resounding successes I have no doubts whatsoever. We don't know exactly how independence would work until we have the opportunity to do so. This debate can go on and on with all sorts of speculation with scaremongering by the "we can't do it on our own" camp but at the end of the day I personally would rather my country had its successes and failures unhindered by a dying empire that is terrified of being an even smaller fish in the sea than it already is. As I have already stated this is not an anti english statement - no more that all the other countries that have left the UK to have independence - it's about having the right to say what happens in our wee corner of the world with our resources. Anywho - there have been good comments and as others have said hope it can be with an open mind and a respectful word.
Brexit and Scottish Independence are very similar. Both nationalist causes, both taking back control of our future, both selling a vision of a better future, both separating from their biggest trading partner.
Ironically neither will acknowledge the similarities.
Scotland is pretty much a nothing in the world economy. Around the size of the economic powerhouses of Hungary or Kuwait in GDP terms. Like the Scottish football team we like to think we’re better than the evidence suggests. "This is your opinion and you are very entitled to it, I'll say once more everyone is entitled to that with respect. Negatives are easy to find and for every person giving a paricular reason not to be independent there is someone with a different point of view that says the first person is wrong because in there opinion x, y or z would happen. The truth is we don't know all I am saying is... I would like my country to have the opportunity to stand on it's own feet for better or worse. I'm also not saying we are bigger or better but I do think we can manage our own affairs better. You don't agree - that's fine - we can agree to differ | |||
"Independantly run by europe?
I am for independence btw but not for stupid reasons like freedom and what not.
44% of UK exports go to the EU. Leaving without a trade deal touted as a complete disaster by many including the SNP but Leave told us getting a trade deal would be easy.
60% of Scottish exports go to rest of UK. Apparently losing that not a disaster according to SNP and easy to get a trade deal. Haven’t we heard this before?
Any economist will tell you that breaking ties with your biggest trading partner with no guaranteed trade deal is a potential economic disaster.
UK can survive without being part of the EU and Scotland can survive without being part of the UK but both scenarios seem likely to make the respective parties poorer.
There’s a bit of referendum fatigue too.
Why would having control of own affairs mean not trading with others? We have many resources others wish to buy? Every country in the world trades with each other. Wanting to decide our own destiny does not mean cutting every tie with other countries. That’s not happened to any other country that gained independence.
If trade is not a problem then why is everyone so hot and bothered about it in a Brexit scenario?
The issue is that trade between UK-EU and Scotland-UK is tariff free. The problem with a split of any kind is that you might not get a trade deal which is tariff free so suddenly it’s more expensive to buy things and your goods are more expensive in export markets. This affects jobs and tax intake for the government and is generally considered to have a negative impact on the economy.
The tariffs in the USA-China trade war has had an effect on China’s economy for example. So these things matter.
I do appreciate these things matter and that there will be things to work out re trade agreements. My point was that they would work out nonetheless. Yes we would make mistakes but we are a resourceful nation and we would also have resounding successes I have no doubts whatsoever. We don't know exactly how independence would work until we have the opportunity to do so. This debate can go on and on with all sorts of speculation with scaremongering by the "we can't do it on our own" camp but at the end of the day I personally would rather my country had its successes and failures unhindered by a dying empire that is terrified of being an even smaller fish in the sea than it already is. As I have already stated this is not an anti english statement - no more that all the other countries that have left the UK to have independence - it's about having the right to say what happens in our wee corner of the world with our resources. Anywho - there have been good comments and as others have said hope it can be with an open mind and a respectful word.
Brexit and Scottish Independence are very similar. Both nationalist causes, both taking back control of our future, both selling a vision of a better future, both separating from their biggest trading partner.
Ironically neither will acknowledge the similarities.
Scotland is pretty much a nothing in the world economy. Around the size of the economic powerhouses of Hungary or Kuwait in GDP terms. Like the Scottish football team we like to think we’re better than the evidence suggests.
This is your opinion and you are very entitled to it, I'll say once more everyone is entitled to that with respect. Negatives are easy to find and for every person giving a paricular reason not to be independent there is someone with a different point of view that says the first person is wrong because in there opinion x, y or z would happen. The truth is we don't know all I am saying is... I would like my country to have the opportunity to stand on it's own feet for better or worse. I'm also not saying we are bigger or better but I do think we can manage our own affairs better. You don't agree - that's fine - we can agree to differ "Ultimately we’re just people discussing politics on a swinging site. Hopefully we’re being respectful
Everyone has an opinion and people are entitled to their opinion and their desires for their future. Like in relationships sometimes you think the grass is greener but Brexit has reminded us that splits are painful and never go the way you think or want them to. It’s all very interesting. | |||
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"Imagine if you got up each morning and went to work and worked really hard. Then at the end of the month your boss says ok you earned £1500 but I don’t want you having all that because I think you can get by on £750 so I’m taking my share. You wouldn’t stay long in that job. So why do we let them do it with our oil, whisky, textiles and beef. Not a single bottle or product leaves from a Scottish port. The treasury reaps all the benefit the minute it crosses the border. Ask yourself, why are Westminster so desperate to keep us? The moment the oil is gone, we won’t need a referendum it’ll be thanks and the door will shut. We could be so much fucking better, if we just gave ourselves some backing.. I came on this site to go deep, but not that fucking deep "Imagine if you got up every morning, went to work and worked really hard. Then imagine that you earn the same as colleague in the rest of the UK ....BUT you find that you now take home less pay because you live in Scotland.... thanks Nicola.... they are already beginning to hurt our economy with the small tax powers they have.... god help us if they ever got independence.... they would pull the country backwards | |||
"Independantly run by europe?
I am for independence btw but not for stupid reasons like freedom and what not.
44% of UK exports go to the EU. Leaving without a trade deal touted as a complete disaster by many including the SNP but Leave told us getting a trade deal would be easy.
60% of Scottish exports go to rest of UK. Apparently losing that not a disaster according to SNP and easy to get a trade deal. Haven’t we heard this before?
Any economist will tell you that breaking ties with your biggest trading partner with no guaranteed trade deal is a potential economic disaster.
UK can survive without being part of the EU and Scotland can survive without being part of the UK but both scenarios seem likely to make the respective parties poorer.
There’s a bit of referendum fatigue too.
Why would having control of own affairs mean not trading with others? We have many resources others wish to buy? Every country in the world trades with each other. Wanting to decide our own destiny does not mean cutting every tie with other countries. That’s not happened to any other country that gained independence. "because its good for scareing the populace. every politician does it a wee clue nobody knows what will happen wewere told if we voted to leave it would cause a catastrophy we would all be homeless and starving......didnt happen. Rheres quite a few releaseing the soundbites of their fav party in this very tbread. Any govt should deal in the absolutes leave the eu and remain part of the uk instead of generating all these possible reasons for not doing what the lopulace asked for. | |||
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"Irrespective of each individuals thoughts on the 'yays and nays' of Indy2...Sturgeon has to get her timing right. In my humble opinion another 'no vote' if granted, will not only see her lose the SNP leadership but also decimate the nationalist party to total oblivion. In saying that they could just ask for an Indy3 vote in another couple of years time. Cynical or what??? "Wouldn't matter about timing - the media control how people vote. We saw that in the last two referendums. Watch The Creepy Line documentary on Prime. | |||
"Irrespective of each individuals thoughts on the 'yays and nays' of Indy2...Sturgeon has to get her timing right. In my humble opinion another 'no vote' if granted, will not only see her lose the SNP leadership but also decimate the nationalist party to total oblivion. In saying that they could just ask for an Indy3 vote in another couple of years time. Cynical or what???
Wouldn't matter about timing - the media control how people vote. We saw that in the last two referendums.
Watch The Creepy Line documentary on Prime."You didn’t see the media influencing the Brexit referendum, they tried too but thankfully they failed miserably. They are still pushing the same propaganda to this day | |||
"Hmm we dont wish to be part of a parliament where we have 10% of votes but happy to be ruled instead by a parliament where we only have 1% of parliamentary votes That really is independence is it?" WOW, starting to think I was the only one noticing this... | |||
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"That is the main aim of SNP and exactly what we should all expect... Bring it on" yup bring it on. | |||
"Was hoping for this. And at our first IndyRef EU already confirmed they'd take us in. Hopefully get this sorted sooner rather than later as far as I'm concerned. Get away from Westminster's reign x" | |||
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"Think we all know we're a small cog in Europe. Personally Iam voting no if there is a referendum. I voted yes last time in a once in a generation referendum now Iam sick of them rabbiting on we voted we lost. What next best of 3 next goal is the winner. It's laughable roads are a nightmare, drugs deaths all time high, food banks, nightmare of a benefits system, NHS a shambles local doctors and all she goes on about is indy Indy Indy...." Sorry to be that guy, but, the state of the roads should be something that affects your vote in local elections, not a referendum on independence. Food banks and the benefits system issues would fall into the ownership of Westminster. Our NHS is actually one of the best healthcare systems in the world and despite its problems, generally performs better than NHS in England. We also have more GPs than the rest of the UK. I'm not trying to belittle your opinions or anything, but please don't base them on what you've read in an incredibly biased and union weighted media. Independence for Scotland at this point is a necessity if we want to thrive as a country. To throw away another opportunity because the media told you to, or you just don't like the party in charge is an absolute affront to democracy. | |||
" Sorry to be that guy, but, the state of the roads should be something that affects your vote in local elections, not a referendum on independence. Food banks and the benefits system issues would fall into the ownership of Westminster. Our NHS is actually one of the best healthcare systems in the world and despite its problems, generally performs better than NHS in England. We also have more GPs than the rest of the UK. I'm not trying to belittle your opinions or anything, but please don't base them on what you've read in an incredibly biased and union weighted media. Independence for Scotland at this point is a necessity if we want to thrive as a country. To throw away another opportunity because the media told you to, or you just don't like the party in charge is an absolute affront to democracy." The reason local government are struggling with potholes etc is due to the massive cuts imposed by the Scottish government that are way over and above anything from Westminster. The source for this it the Scottish Government's own information centre. | |||
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"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2" No Scotland didn't vote to remain. Scotland voted to be a part of the UK and the uk voted to leave. You can't have it both ways. You're either part of the UK and stand by the UK or you voted to leave the UK and then Scotland would have been an independent country already. People that keep saying Scotland voted to remain really don't understand how a vote generally works. | |||
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"Was hoping for this. And at our first IndyRef EU already confirmed they'd take us in. Hopefully get this sorted sooner rather than later as far as I'm concerned. Get away from Westminster's reign x" The EU have never said that. They said we would have to apply and go through the same process as every other country. Only thing they said is it would be a quicker process if the member states voted us in | |||
"Think we all know we're a small cog in Europe. Personally Iam voting no if there is a referendum. I voted yes last time in a once in a generation referendum now Iam sick of them rabbiting on we voted we lost. What next best of 3 next goal is the winner. It's laughable roads are a nightmare, drugs deaths all time high, food banks, nightmare of a benefits system, NHS a shambles local doctors and all she goes on about is indy Indy Indy.... Sorry to be that guy, but, the state of the roads should be something that affects your vote in local elections, not a referendum on independence. Food banks and the benefits system issues would fall into the ownership of Westminster. Our NHS is actually one of the best healthcare systems in the world and despite its problems, generally performs better than NHS in England. We also have more GPs than the rest of the UK. I'm not trying to belittle your opinions or anything, but please don't base them on what you've read in an incredibly biased and union weighted media. Independence for Scotland at this point is a necessity if we want to thrive as a country. To throw away another opportunity because the media told you to, or you just don't like the party in charge is an absolute affront to democracy." Dont forget our education system that the SNP has fucked up | |||
"Was hoping for this. And at our first IndyRef EU already confirmed they'd take us in. Hopefully get this sorted sooner rather than later as far as I'm concerned. Get away from Westminster's reign x The EU have never said that. They said we would have to apply and go through the same process as every other country. Only thing they said is it would be a quicker process if the member states voted us in" Of course we'd have to go through all the official channels, but Scotland ticks all the required boxes, which basically was one of very few certainties at IndyRef1, so we will be part of EU if we want to | |||
" The reason local government are struggling with potholes etc is due to the massive cuts imposed by the Scottish government that are way over and above anything from Westminster. The source for this it the Scottish Government's own information centre." I stand corrected. I would still maintain its not a reason to vote against independence. | |||
" Dont forget our education system that the SNP has fucked up" No offense intended here, but that's a wee bit of an exaggeration. Teacher numbers are on the rise again and our higher education system is ranked amongst the best in the world. | |||
" Dont forget our education system that the SNP has fucked up No offense intended here, but that's a wee bit of an exaggeration. Teacher numbers are on the rise again and our higher education system is ranked amongst the best in the world." You having a joke? Some of our unis are ranked best in the world. Our primary schools and secondary schools are rubbish. Scotlands education system has been going downhill for years. We have underfunded teachers who have class sizes increased and standards dropping and funding dropping. The SNP has also reduced the spending per head of pupil too. Pupils also attaining higher is also at a record low. But yeah one of the best in the world | |||
" If I recall correctly the question was should the UK (of which Scotland already voted to stay part of.), leave the EU,, and the UK voted yes.. (I voted to remain). So Scotland didn't vote no to brexit, because that wasn't the question. " Scotland voted no to Brexit in the Brexit referendum. This after having returned large snp majorities in 2 Westminster and one holyrood elections on a mandate of having another indyref if there was a significant change in status such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will. 3 votes under that mandate with significant majorities. Yet unionists always carp on about 'rspexting the votes' as they blithely ignore those votes. | |||
" Dont forget our education system that the SNP has fucked up No offense intended here, but that's a wee bit of an exaggeration. Teacher numbers are on the rise again and our higher education system is ranked amongst the best in the world. You having a joke? Some of our unis are ranked best in the world. Our primary schools and secondary schools are rubbish. Scotlands education system has been going downhill for years. We have underfunded teachers who have class sizes increased and standards dropping and funding dropping. The SNP has also reduced the spending per head of pupil too. Pupils also attaining higher is also at a record low. But yeah one of the best in the world "
You do realise that ALL budget cuts in Scotland are a result of Tory austerity policies, don't you? You know, that failed policy that has seen this Tory government raise the national debt by more than any government in history,which most economists acknowledge is a busted flush and is about inflicting the worst of the government's failure on those least responsible for it whilst still rewarding and enriching the richest strata of Britain's twisted society. | |||
" The reason local government are struggling with potholes etc is due to the massive cuts imposed by the Scottish government that are way over and above anything from Westminster. The source for this it the Scottish Government's own information centre." Again. ALL of Scotland's budget comes from Westminster. Yes, even the bits that are collected here because there is a commensurate cut in Barnet consequentials for every penny raised here. That money is then allocated to the council's who decide how to spend it. Tory austerity reduces the amount in the pot then Scottish labour and Tories blame the Scottish government for having to pass it on. Councils decide what their budgets are spent on, not the SG. I guess your data comes from the gers figures? Those figures designed by Westminster to make Scotland loo like an economic basket case rather than the true state of the nation? Especially as under independence our economy would be totally different both in available resources and fiscal policy. Oh, and are you aware that there was a long-standing policy, pre-devolution, of using lower quality aggregates and standard to build Scotland's roads (and some regions in the south and in Wales) because they were classes as lower priorities? Grade a aggregate dug out of our quarries and shipped south grade b shipped in for our roads. As a result our roads wear faster and until all of those decades of underfunding are reversed well have more potholes. | |||
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"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2" Yet we voted NO in the "once in a lifetime" independence vote, and indyref2 is still getting dragged out. If only the SNP focused on the shite they promised to fix and address when elected rather than a second ""once in a lifetime"" vote.... again then the country wouldn't be so fucked.
But no doubt there will be an indyref3 4 5 and 6 until they get their way.
Complete bollox
We voted NO, SNP must accept it and move on. | |||
"But the will of Scotland got ignored? The majority voted remain! The sooner we become an independent country and then have the majority rule." The will of Scotland has been ignored by the SNP since 2014 | |||
" Dont forget our education system that the SNP has fucked up No offense intended here, but that's a wee bit of an exaggeration. Teacher numbers are on the rise again and our higher education system is ranked amongst the best in the world. You having a joke? Some of our unis are ranked best in the world. Our primary schools and secondary schools are rubbish. Scotlands education system has been going downhill for years. We have underfunded teachers who have class sizes increased and standards dropping and funding dropping. The SNP has also reduced the spending per head of pupil too. Pupils also attaining higher is also at a record low. But yeah one of the best in the world "Again, "rubbish" is maybe a wee bit of an exaggeration. There was a slight drop in performance in certain areas, but those areas have also started to recover. And pupils attaining highers is not at an all time low, it's currently at the highest ever recorded. | |||
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"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2 Yet we voted NO in the "once in a lifetime" independence vote, and indyref2 is still getting dragged out. If only the SNP focused on the shite they promised to fix and address when elected rather than a second ""once in a lifetime"" vote.... again then the country wouldn't be so fucked.
But no doubt there will be an indyref3 4 5 and 6 until they get their way.
Complete bollox
We voted NO, SNP must accept it and move on."Well they won't accept it. They are largest party of MPs in scotland and unless people voted for other parties to overturn their majority in scotland they will continue to press for independence. | |||
"If Scotland was to have gone independent we would have had to agree terms with the eu, yes they wouldn’t have immediately kicked us out providing we had an agreement, we would have been shafted by the eu, and guess what if we get independence we will still get shafted, the uk has been getting shafted by the eu for years, we were one of the richest countries in the world and the eu, we still are somewhat but for all the implementations of eu rule we lose elsewhere that has a much larger detriment to the uk economy, politics and economics SHOULD be mandatory in school and maybe then folk would actually know what they’re talking about if being allowed to vote Pls tell us how the eu are shafting us and what eu rules have stopped us from being a rich country ?" my mind boggles with that too. EU has been nothing but good.its not perfect but a lot better than Westminster. | |||
" = Again. ALL of Scotland's budget comes from Westminster. Yes, even the bits that are collected here because there is a commensurate cut in Barnet consequentials for every penny raised here. That money is then allocated to the council's who decide how to spend it. Tory austerity reduces the amount in the pot then Scottish labour and Tories blame the Scottish government for having to pass it on. Councils decide what their budgets are spent on, not the SG. I guess your data comes from the gers figures? Those figures designed by Westminster to make Scotland loo like an economic basket case rather than the true state of the nation? Especially as under independence our economy would be totally different both in available resources and fiscal policy. Oh, and are you aware that there was a long-standing policy, pre-devolution, of using lower quality aggregates and standard to build Scotland's roads (and some regions in the south and in Wales) because they were classes as lower priorities? Grade a aggregate dug out of our quarries and shipped south grade b shipped in for our roads. As a result our roads wear faster and until all of those decades of underfunding are reversed well have more potholes." I know very well how the finances work. First of all, the figures are from the Scottish Parliament and therefore can't be disputed. Unless you believe the SNP are lying? They show that between 2013 and 2018 the Scottish Government's budget dropped by 1.8% whereas the cuts imposed by the Scottish Government on Local Council's over the same period was a massive 7.1%. As for Gers figures they are only disputed by the cranks on the fringes of the Yes movement. It's very telling that Sturgeon doesn't dispute them, Salmond frequently quoted them and indeed the SNP's White Paper and Growth Commission Report are based on them. Even pro indy websites like CommonSpace don't dispute them. And let's not forget they're compiled by Scottish Government economists. If you're interested the Fraser of Allander Institute have a good blog on the subject as one of their senior staff was involved in compiling them for a time. | |||
" Again, "rubbish" is maybe a wee bit of an exaggeration. There was a slight drop in performance in certain areas, but those areas have also started to recover. And pupils attaining highers is not at an all time low, it's currently at the highest ever recorded." There's not been a slight drop there's been a fairly major one. This got so embarrasing for the current government that they took us out of the international PISA tests so we can't compare current performance against past performance, or against other nations. To quote a recent report from the Scottish Parliament's Education Committee: "The committee is concerned the Scottish Government’s decisions on national performance data, including the discontinuation of the SSLN, have generated a data gap of at least five years, with no guarantee the gap will not be longer. The loss of continuity in datasets is a particular concern as the last SSLN results in 2017 highlighted performance issues in relation to numeracy and literacy. The lack of baseline data means no meaningful conclusions on upward or downward trends can be reached at a time of reform within Scottish education. However, the committee is concerned at the loss of rigorous national performance data that assisted parliament and wider society in holding the government to account for its performance on education and allowed for transparent scrutiny of the education system" So to sum up, the solution to poor performance was to scrap the data so we can't measure it anymore. | |||
So we're not going to argue with you lot
We're too busy arguing with each other  | |||
"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2 I voted to leave, same as I voted for independence, if we had for independence we would be doing the exact same now as we would have then, trying to come to a deal with the EU just the average person who doesn’t understand the political system wouldn’t have known as they didn’t make that very public, the Brexit deal was a bit of a sweetener for Scotland if you ask me to try avoid and indy2 but all it’s done is make the snp dig heels in more tbh it’s a complete fiasco and next time round I’ll be going back to voting with the Lib Dem’s again I’ve lost all confidence in the snp as this is exactly what the main goal in the original Indy ref was and that was an eu exit so Scotland had more control over its own fishing farming oil etc, absolutely no way if we do Indy again the snp are going to make a better deal with the eu because we won’t have the uk supporting any bills we get to get passed because believe it or not the rest of the eu would be our best allies in eu. Folk ought to start doing their research properly and reading up on policies and legislation " Totally agree and I like you voted to leave Europe and voted for. Independence if there is another vote it puts a mokery in the whole process we don't like the result people are stupid we need to do it again!! Really!! I feel ever so patronised by the system I accepted the result not to be independent and all those who voted to stay are the ones who are wanting a second referendum on brexit instead of accepting the democratic vot3e of the people whether they like it or not we didn't get Independence and so therefore Scotland is not a separate nation when it comes to UK voting .. | |||
"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2" Scotland didn’t vote every individual in the UK had one vote. Everyone was represented equally. That’s how democracy works. Should Glasgow be in the EU and Edinburgh be out if that’s how the votes we cast. Or should your street be in or out. One vote is one vote. Where you happen to be in the UK is not relevant. Also why is being ruled from Brussels the good option. The SNP are prepared to promise anything to get what they want and have no interest in actually governing the country. All they want is to break things down in a small minded and almost communist viewpoint. Promise anything to the grate unwashed and keep them under control. Strip the wealth from the people and give it out for the government controlled good. But you guys just keep pulling up 100’s of years of history and harking back to an Italian prince to stir up trouble and hate that keeps the country in limbo and large companies from investing in a volatile country. Good work. | |||
"But Scotland voted no to brexit and still getting dragged out! Sooner this country has the balls to jump a sinking ship and Stand on our own 2 feet the better!! Bring it on #indyref2 Scotland didn’t vote every individual in the UK had one vote. Everyone was represented equally. That’s how democracy works. Should Glasgow be in the EU and Edinburgh be out if that’s how the votes we cast. Or should your street be in or out. One vote is one vote. Where you happen to be in the UK is not relevant. Also why is being ruled from Brussels the good option. The SNP are prepared to promise anything to get what they want and have no interest in actually governing the country. All they want is to break things down in a small minded and almost communist viewpoint. Promise anything to the grate unwashed and keep them under control. Strip the wealth from the people and give it out for the government controlled good. But you guys just keep pulling up 100’s of years of history and harking back to an Italian prince to stir up trouble and hate that keeps the country in limbo and large companies from investing in a volatile country. Good work. " Exactly. The Scottish and UK both haven’t been doing their day jobs because they’ve be concentrating on their nationalist causes. SNP argue Brexit is an economic disaster. Breaking up from your biggest trading partner is rarely a good idea I’d agree. But Scotland exports 4 times more to rest of UK than it does to the EU. Scotland will lose a lot more economically if it loses the UK. Of course SNP say that won’t stop and we’ll have a trade deal with UK if we go Independent. Isn’t that exactly what the Brexiteers said before they tried to negotiate Brexit with the EU? Politician all want to be king/queen of their own respective castles. Brexit, IndyRef and to some extent Trump all seem the same. All taking back control and making UK/Scotland/USA great again. It’s all nationalist politics. | |||
