FabSwingers.com > Forums > Scotland > IIndependant Scotland
IIndependant Scotland
Jump to: Newest in thread
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Not sure I'm allowed to comment on his one, but I'm gonna anyway! Full independence would be a mistake, but devomax seems like a good compromise to me. Make most of the decisions up here and let Westminster help pay for it!! Why not?? Do you really want Alex salmond as Scottish king?? "you can vote him out at the next election, it's not SNP forever | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'm as proud to be scottish than there is but...me myself do not think this country would prosper alone... Too many work shy folk wanting a free n easy life . Auds xx" Here was me thinking we were all looking for an easy ride  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point." what be proud scottish stand alone paupers is more apt ??? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"All we ever get from salmond and co is trumped up rhetoric without the facts and numbers to back up what they're saying-for instance they keep banging on about north sea oil...do they really think westminster will give that up? Of course they wont ffs! Also it's a finite resource that only has 50 or so years left, what then! That was just one of many examples of what they need to spell out so that we can make an informed decision rather one on patriotic motives...and as patriotic as i am i cant really see how a fully independant scotland can survive financially! What with some uninformed people, 16 and 17 year olds able to vote and no doubt films like braveheart, rob roy, stone of destiny etc being shown in the run up to the referendum it may have a chance of independance being passed. I'm no fan of westminster but i see it as the lesser of two evils so to speak by voting for devomax." Pretty much this ... But put better than I could | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point." So the point is?? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point." So you'll be one of the people i mention who'll make an uninformed patriotic vote and to hell with the reality of the situation and consequences of it then! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"scotland has been crippled with years of centralisation no way could we stand on our own two feet never mind clear the massive deficit that would be handed to us our share of great britains bills in short the uk government is allowing this vote to happen as its a win win for them my view as always "Actually, just to rebut this, our share of the UK deficit and UK debt is relatively small (based on fiscal spend vs. fiscal incomes) because Scotland is in net surplus most years; several credit agencies have stated off the record that Scotland would likely receive a AAA rating (that London just lost). As for "allow" the referendum, they had no choice; they spent 4 years trying to stop it happening, and in the end legal opinion forced them to "allow" it because the Scottish Parliament had devolved authority. They still tried to interfere but couldn't do much without being seen as blatantly anti-democracy. But t say they're happy with it, or that they allowed or wanted it, is simply untrue. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point." Sorry, but I don't think they would be missing the point. Whilst it would be the 'patriotic' thing to do, voting for independence would be catastrophic for Scotland. Scotland benefits from being able to make its own decisions on a lot of things from education to health but also benefits greatly from letting Westminster pay for defence for a start. Would you be willing to pay 50% tax on everything you earnt?? Because I can't see any other way of paying for independence. Yes the financial side isn't the whole story but it affects everything else. Would you want to have the euro? A currency that has been failing some it was introduced? If Scotland was independent and went into Europe then it would end up being part of the United States of Europe. What's the point?? I say give Scotland more power over itself but stay within the United Kingdom and continue to benefit from both. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"International law covers the dividing up of jointly-held assets; north sea is a geographical asset, and as such, the part of the north-sea that is england's area (about 14% of the oil fields) would stay with London, the rest would stay with Scotland. Failure to adhere to this would be illegal under UK and EU law, as well as international treaty. Westminster, including the Tories, Labour and Lib-Dems, have all agreed the north-sea oil in Scotland's area would go to Scotland, no questions. Anyone saying otherwise is either ill-informed, or lying. Independence is nothing to do with Alex Salmond, who is a party leader; if you don't like his policies, you don't vote for his party. Devomax is pointless because the strings would still be held by London, and the ripoff would continue. Right now, Scotland pays 10.3% of the UK taxes, but only receives 9.3% of UK spend - this INCLUDES all monies spent on our behalf in the UK as a whole (ie defence, uk-govt stuff, foreign office etc.). We're being ripped off. If you don't believe me, read the GERS report, by the UK govt. which says this. Large numbers of international companies have said they will not change their plans, based upon independence (ie. they won't leave etc.) - the people saying otherwise are trying to scaremonger. Why? Why if Scotland is so poor, so wee, so stupid, are London fighting to keep us? If we were a drain on their economy, if we "needed" them so much, the Tories would be trying to ditch Scotland. Fact is, London is dependent on the north-sea oil revenues, the whisky and tourism revenues etc. backing up Scotland. Last time they were banging their drum about how Scotland is too poor and stupid to survive on it's own, they were saying "if you go independent, you'll lose your AAA credit rating." Yeah. That went well for them (the UK as a whole lost it because of London's inability to stop pouring money down the drain). Scotland is fiscally better off than the rest of the UK, and is paying, subsidising to keep London afloat. Without London, and without the right-wing parties that the south-east of England loves, but by and large Scotland hates, we will be better off. Look at all the policies of the current UK Govt. Ask yourself if this is what you want; the bedroom tax, student fees, the pensions cap, the pensions raid, the rise in VAT, the rise in fuel duty, the 10p tax band being abolished, the tax cuts for millionaires, the savage and brutal cuts to disability benefits, literally taking the money from the poor and elderly...all of this from a government that Scotland DIDN'T ELECT! 1 Tory MP in Scotland, 1. Yet we suffer their policies. Like the SNP or not, at least Scotland elected them. Giving Holyrood control over Scottish benefits, tax incomes, social policies and economic policy is NOT a bad thing. London just don't want to lose the money and power.... As with everyone in politics, follow the money. We're subsidising London, not the other way around. I can't link the report, but google "GERS" and also "The McCrone Report". Sorry for the long post..." A very well informed post is it not true that a large proportion of the north sea oil fields belong to the faroe islands legaly? Thought I read this somewhere | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point. So you'll be one of the people i mention who'll make an uninformed patriotic vote and to hell with the reality of the situation and consequences of it then! "Perhaps you didn't read my post. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point. Sorry, but I don't think they would be missing the point. Whilst it would be the 'patriotic' thing to do, voting for independence would be catastrophic for Scotland. Scotland benefits from being able to make its own decisions on a lot of things from education to health but also benefits greatly from letting Westminster pay for defence for a start. Would you be willing to pay 50% tax on everything you earnt?? Because I can't see any other way of paying for independence. Yes the financial side isn't the whole story but it affects everything else. Would you want to have the euro? A currency that has been failing some it was introduced? If Scotland was independent and went into Europe then it would end up being part of the United States of Europe. What's the point?? I say give Scotland more power over itself but stay within the United Kingdom and continue to benefit from both. " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point. So the point is?? " A people's "identity" whether that be British,Scottish,whatever. This can breed confidence and well being.it is not always about the few pounds saved. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point. Sorry, but I don't think they would be missing the point. Whilst it would be the 'patriotic' thing to do, voting for independence would be catastrophic for Scotland. Scotland benefits from being able to make its own decisions on a lot of things from education to health but also benefits greatly from letting Westminster pay for defence for a start. Would you be willing to pay 50% tax on everything you earnt?? Because I can't see any other way of paying for independence. Yes the financial side isn't the whole story but it affects everything else. Would you want to have the euro? A currency that has been failing some it was introduced? If Scotland was independent and went into Europe then it would end up being part of the United States of Europe. What's the point?? I say give Scotland more power over itself but stay within the United Kingdom and continue to benefit from both. "We already pay our fair share of defence. And where is it? It's in England. Right now, we have 9.3% of the population, and only 2.4% of the UK's military. After independence, we'll actually be spending the same on defence, and yet have an army 5 times larger, 5 times more navy ships (since we'll be getting our fair share of the RN back), and 5 times the air-force; we are being RIPPED OFF!!! The financial reasons are not everything, but the finances all point to independence. We pay far more than we need to for our defence etc. because we're subsiding england. I know you won't think that's true, but look a the actual figures, and it's true. As for the EU, it's accepted that Scotland will have to renegotiate our membership, that's a good thing, get a better deal; we only have 7 MEP's, yet similar sized nations liked Denmark have 13. but that doesn't mean we would have to join the Euro. Partly because we're not a new member, just a new arrangement of an existing member, but also because there is an acceptance that not all nations will join the Euro - Sweden "should", but it is not going to; Scotland will be the same. The UK as a whole will leave the EU in 2016 or 2017, when the tory's referendum will pass, because England will vote NO to continued EU membership. Scotland, if we don't go independent, will be dragged out as well, and this would be disastrous. If we vote NO in 2013, the Tories will take the axe to Scotland, knowing full well there is nothing we can do to stop them. Devo-Max is not, and will likely never be, on the table. It was supported by the SNP, but the london-gang stopped them. Ask yourself why... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point. So the point is?? A people's "identity" whether that be British,Scottish,whatever. This can breed confidence and well being.it is not always about the few pounds saved." by that token if you feel scottish you are scottish whether independant or part of uk then | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point. So you'll be one of the people i mention who'll make an uninformed patriotic vote and to hell with the reality of the situation and consequences of it then!
Perhaps you didn't read my post.
"Of course i read it, dont you see that i quoted it-as did others who took it the same way that i did. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"keep hearing of these oil fields ??? am i wrong in my thinking that america actually owns it as oor maggie sold it to them and we get min $14 dollars a barrel as for scotland being richer have watched many of my family and freinds lose jobs to centralisation and exactly why would companys want to return as to get revenue we would have to charge far more than what would be our uk neighbours.we also wouldnt be a member of the eu for many years watched a parliment programme on it to be a member state 100s of billions would have to be spent on infrastructure to bring us in line with the min qualifying threshold. sorry but the cry of freedom dont rub on me i am scottish whether that be in the uk or independant my view we would suffer badly with independace i definatly wont be voting for it "That is your choice (that London didn't want to give you, but anyway)... But... 1) No, the oil-fields are a governmentally-controlled resource; government grants contracts to various oil-companies to drill them, and is paid tax on those fields, this is how it works the world over. At the moment, all that oil-money goes to London. Scotland sees none of it, at all. 2) Scotland, under the centre-left parties it tends to vote for, would likely lower corporation tax. Since we see none of this at the moment anyway, ANYTHING we get from company taxes will UP our budget. People really just are not seeing the massive amount of money Scotland is ripped off every year by London. 3) We are all EU citizens. It is established EU law, that you cannot have this denied or removed, unless by consent; Scotland is, and will continue to be EU members, although during the period from 2013 to actual independence in 2016, we will need to adjust our terms of membership (amount of rebates, number of MEP's, signing various treaties etc.). Do not believe the right-wing scare-mongers that threaten Scotland with being dragged out of the EU. The only threat to our EU membership is if you vote NO, and England votes to leave the EU (which it will, in 2017). Oh, and the thing about the Faroe islands isn't quite true; they do have a share of the North-sea oil fields, but it's not very large compared to Scotland... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"keep hearing of these oil fields ??? am i wrong in my thinking that america actually owns it as oor maggie sold it to them and we get min $14 dollars a barrel as for scotland being richer have watched many of my family and freinds lose jobs to centralisation and exactly why would companys want to return as to get revenue we would have to charge far more than what would be our uk neighbours.we also wouldnt be a member of the eu for many years watched a parliment programme on it to be a member state 100s of billions would have to be spent on infrastructure to bring us in line with the min qualifying threshold. sorry but the cry of freedom dont rub on me i am scottish whether that be in the uk or independant my view we would suffer badly with independace i definatly wont be voting for it
That is your choice (that London didn't want to give you, but anyway)...
But...
1) No, the oil-fields are a governmentally-controlled resource; government grants contracts to various oil-companies to drill them, and is paid tax on those fields, this is how it works the world over. At the moment, all that oil-money goes to London. Scotland sees none of it, at all.
2) Scotland, under the centre-left parties it tends to vote for, would likely lower corporation tax. Since we see none of this at the moment anyway, ANYTHING we get from company taxes will UP our budget. People really just are not seeing the massive amount of money Scotland is ripped off every year by London.
3) We are all EU citizens. It is established EU law, that you cannot have this denied or removed, unless by consent; Scotland is, and will continue to be EU members, although during the period from 2013 to actual independence in 2016, we will need to adjust our terms of membership (amount of rebates, number of MEP's, signing various treaties etc.). Do not believe the right-wing scare-mongers that threaten Scotland with being dragged out of the EU. The only threat to our EU membership is if you vote NO, and England votes to leave the EU (which it will, in 2017).
Oh, and the thing about the Faroe islands isn't quite true; they do have a share of the North-sea oil fields, but it's not very large compared to Scotland..."strokes n folks you like to read things with your spin i read with mine still a no vote wont change | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point. So you'll be one of the people i mention who'll make an uninformed patriotic vote and to hell with the reality of the situation and consequences of it then!
Perhaps you didn't read my post.
Of course i read it, dont you see that i quoted it-as did others who took it the same way that i did."You read it but didn't understand it. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point. So the point is?? A people's "identity" whether that be British,Scottish,whatever. This can breed confidence and well being.it is not always about the few pounds saved." I'm sure that confidence and well being are holding the greeks, spanish, italians etc in good stead in the knowledge that they have nothing to worry about...i'll not include the cypriots in there as they're a divided nation | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point. So the point is?? A people's "identity" whether that be British,Scottish,whatever. This can breed confidence and well being.it is not always about the few pounds saved.by that token if you feel scottish you are scottish whether independant or part of uk then "
The Scottish for a miriad of reasons mostly historic and cultural suffer from an extreme lack of confidence.This may change with independance.maybe not. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point. So the point is?? A people's "identity" whether that be British,Scottish,whatever. This can breed confidence and well being.it is not always about the few pounds saved. I'm sure that confidence and well being are holding the greeks, spanish, italians etc in good stead in the knowledge that they have nothing to worry about...i'll not include the cypriots in there as they're a divided nation "That actually doesn't make sense but hey ho..! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'm as proud to be scottish than there is but...me myself do not think this country would prosper alone... Too many work shy folk wanting a free n easy life . Auds xx" I agree completely!!! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"e He was the first minister in britian to sign the Mastricht treaty giving up the british pound to the germans. If smaller countries like norway and southern Ireland can prosper then what's to stop us. SOAR ALBA I say. "That was John Major.Salmond has never been a minister in a UK govt. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
".......Most of the national debt is with England, true, as mentioned above. No mention of where our national income will come from. What currencey will we have etc etc. as for joining the EU. Thats an easy get out for salmond. ........." Salmond has already 'decided' a separate Scotland would use Sterling and join the EU. The trouble is you can't do both. All new entrants to the EU MUST use the Euro. You only have to look at Cyprus to see the risk that runs. Salmond has all but conceded defeat already. Putting puir Nicola in charge gave the game away. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"if it happens am out of here my company are from england and i would move there salmond hasnt got a clue he hasnt answered any questions would we be in the euro or keep the pound do we need a passport to go to england what about the army its the british army we would no defence if its not broke dont fix it" We own a quarter of the british army and all its equipment and men. Anyway we dont need an army. Nobody will invade us and even if they wanted to the yanks and english wouldnt let them. So let them pay | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" We own a quarter of the british army and all its equipment and men. Anyway we dont need an army.........." How do you work that out? Only approx 10% of the UK population is in Scotland. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" We own a quarter of the british army and all its equipment and men. Anyway we dont need an army.......... How do you work that out? Only approx 10% of the UK population is in Scotland." ever other small country manages with a small army | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone voting for or against for purely financial reasons is sorely missing the point." totally agree | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I want to vote for whover stops all the foreigners coming in to collect every benefit going whilst putting nothing back. Get given housing when our own have to be on waiting lists for years. Take jobs at a lesser wage then send the money out the country. Get tough when they break the law and send them home. And above all, stop bailing out every other country that gets in the shit. Would that be independance ? I have no idea but surely it couldn't be any worse that the mess westminster has the country in" 
BNP and you would appear suited. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Every large company would move all there business and offices out of scotland if we got Independence, Oil Revenue will dry up..we're screwed ..how can we trust a lying, 2 faced weasel like salmond anyway...rant over...its folly. " you mean unlike Blair Brown Cameron hmmm interesting | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw has anyone Thot we will also own 10% Falklands Gibraltar ect ect we could always sell 10% them back to Argentina and Spain that would rise some money " why would we own 10% of any other country these countrys are part of great britain not some comodity to be diveded up as and when it suits the soverign nation | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw has anyone Thot we will also own 10% Falklands Gibraltar ect ect we could always sell 10% them back to Argentina and Spain that would rise some money why would we own 10% of any other country these countrys are part of great britain not some comodity to be diveded up as and when it suits the soverign nation "Aye they are | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw has anyone Thot we will also own 10% Falklands Gibraltar ect ect we could always sell 10% them back to Argentina and Spain that would rise some money why would we own 10% of any other country these countrys are part of great britain not some comodity to be diveded up as and when it suits the soverign nation Aye they are "makes sense you want independance but want to force others to your will good luck with that one | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Every large company would move all there business and offices out of scotland if we got Independence, Oil Revenue will dry up..we're screwed ..how can we trust a lying, 2 faced weasel like salmond anyway...rant over...its folly. you mean unlike Blair Brown Cameron hmmm interesting " I've yet to find an honest politician who is t in it for themselves! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" We own a quarter of the british army and all its equipment and men. Anyway we dont need an army.......... How do you work that out? Only approx 10% of the UK population is in Scotland." Because we are made up of an equall union | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Every large company would move all there business and offices out of scotland if we got Independence, Oil Revenue will dry up..we're screwed ..how can we trust a lying, 2 faced weasel like salmond anyway...rant over...its folly. " So what you are saying is that Scottish people are to thick and useless to run their own country. Even though large numbers of them have had major roles in running the UK. The day after the Tories announced this very stupis argument Amazon announce a new depot employinmg over 1000 people. Get a grip ffs | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I've yet to find an honest politician who is t in it for themselves! "Now THERE'S a truth if ever there was one. At least a vote FOR Independence is a chance to influence things for change. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Every large company would move all there business and offices out of scotland if we got Independence, Oil Revenue will dry up..we're screwed ..how can we trust a lying, 2 faced weasel like salmond anyway...rant over...its folly. you mean unlike Blair Brown Cameron hmmm interesting So why did choose to only name Salmond god save us from self loathing scots I've yet to find an honest politician who is t in it for themselves! " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" We own a quarter of the british army and all its equipment and men. Anyway we dont need an army.......... How do you work that out? Only approx 10% of the UK population is in Scotland. ever other small country manages with a small army " How does 10% of the population 'own' 25 of the Army? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw has anyone Thot we will also own 10% Falklands Gibraltar ect ect we could always sell 10% them back to Argentina and Spain that would rise some money " Being responsible for 10% of the costs of defending Falklands Gibraltar ect ect would bankrupt Scotland before we could erect a For Sale sign. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Every large company would move all there business and offices out of scotland if we got Independence, Oil Revenue will dry up..we're screwed ..how can we trust a lying, 2 faced weasel like salmond anyway...rant over...its folly. So what you are saying is that Scottish people are to thick and useless to run their own country. Even though large numbers of them have had major roles in running the UK. The day after the Tories announced this very stupis argument Amazon announce a new depot employinmg over 1000 people. Get a grip ffs" Amazon's new depot was paid for by money from Holyrood derived via Barnett. The same Amazon as refuse to pay UK taxes. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Every large company would move all there business and offices out of scotland if we got Independence, Oil Revenue will dry up..we're screwed ..how can we trust a lying, 2 faced weasel like salmond anyway...rant over...its folly. So what you are saying is that Scottish people are to thick and useless to run their own country. Even though large numbers of them have had major roles in running the UK. The day after the Tories announced this very stupis argument Amazon announce a new depot employinmg over 1000 people. Get a grip ffs Amazon's new depot was paid for by money from Holyrood derived via Barnett. The same Amazon as refuse to pay UK taxes." Huge revenue from PAYE and NI though. And huge savings on paying people benefits | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Every large company would move all there business and offices out of scotland if we got Independence, Oil Revenue will dry up..we're screwed ..how can we trust a lying, 2 faced weasel like salmond anyway...rant over...its folly. So what you are saying is that Scottish people are to thick and useless to run their own country. Even though large numbers of them have had major roles in running the UK. The day after the Tories announced this very stupis argument Amazon announce a new depot employinmg over 1000 people. Get a grip ffs Amazon's new depot was paid for by money from Holyrood derived via Barnett. The same Amazon as refuse to pay UK taxes. Huge revenue from PAYE and NI though. And huge savings on paying people benefits" On Minimum Wage? I doubt the PAYE/ NI comes to much. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"What does scotland do in the future if the shetlands states it is really there oil and wants independace from scotland " Depends where the oil is relevant to you shoreline. But by the time that happens Scotland will have made billions from the revenue and developed our own business model. There is more to Scotland than oil. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"....... There is more to Scotland than oil." Like what? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Never voted before but well both be voting against this." Dinnae bother teehee | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"....... There is more to Scotland than oil. Like what?" whiskey financial services tourism farming etc etc | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"....... There is more to Scotland than oil. Like what? whiskey financial services tourism farming etc etc " We don't make whiskey. The banking/ financial services sector, should it ever recover from recent events, will never be the same again. Tourism doesn't actually make much money for Scotland. OK, it employs a lot of people but they're mostly foreign and on minimum wage. Farming makes money for farmers but they don't spend much of it in Scotland or employ many people. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"most of the oil is around the shetlands and they have there own identity and flag so they may not want to be part of an independent scotland. ........." It's probably still open to Norway to redeem the dowry for Margaret and take Shetland back. Even Tavish Scott thinks that might be a better bet than being part of a separate Scotland. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"....... We don't make whiskey. The banking/ financial services sector, should it ever recover from recent events, will never be the same again. Tourism doesn't actually make much money for Scotland. OK, it employs a lot of people but they're mostly foreign and on minimum wage. Farming makes money for farmers but they don't spend much of it in Scotland or employ many people." Eh? There are 101 distilleries in Scotland. Believe me, we make whiskey. And we sell it all over the world - and Westminster claws in the tax for 80% of it. We would get ALL the tax if we were independent. That's a lot of dosh.  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"...renewable energy (we already sell electricity to England) our water (we'd sell that to the rest of the UK too). " And they sell leccy to us too. Renewables have enormous potential but, as yet, it's just potential and it'll probably be dearer than nuclear - even including clean-up costs. "And we'd get rid of Trident. That would mean we wouldn't have to pay for it. And while we're waiting for Westminster to find a suitable place for it to be removed to...we'd charge them a shit load of money to rent the land it's on." The Yanks won't let Trident go anywhere. They might, just might, pay to keep it at Faslane but they'd probably just make us an offer we can't refuse. "Once we were warriors.... " Once we were mercenaries, missionaries, merchants and matelots. None, however, looked like Mel Gibson. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"....... We don't make whiskey. The banking/ financial services sector, should it ever recover from recent events, will never be the same again. Tourism doesn't actually make much money for Scotland. OK, it employs a lot of people but they're mostly foreign and on minimum wage. Farming makes money for farmers but they don't spend much of it in Scotland or employ many people. Eh? There are 101 distilleries in Scotland. Believe me, we make whiskey. And we sell it all over the world - and Westminster claws in the tax for 80% of it. We would get ALL the tax if we were independent. That's a lot of dosh. "No, they make whisky. Whiskey is made in the US and Ireland. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"....... We don't make whiskey. The banking/ financial services sector, should it ever recover from recent events, will never be the same again. Tourism doesn't actually make much money for Scotland. OK, it employs a lot of people but they're mostly foreign and on minimum wage. Farming makes money for farmers but they don't spend much of it in Scotland or employ many people. Eh? There are 101 distilleries in Scotland. Believe me, we make whiskey. And we sell it all over the world - and Westminster claws in the tax for 80% of it. We would get ALL the tax if we were independent. That's a lot of dosh.
No, they make whisky. Whiskey is made in the US and Ireland."My point still stands. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"....... No, they make whisky. Whiskey is made in the US and Ireland. My point still stands. " Any idea how much of the profit from whisky distilling stays in Scotland? How many distillers are owned by Scottish companies? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Has anyone else tried to point out that Scotland makes Whisky and not Whiskey...here's a tip it gets you a block from these arseholes..oops not supposed to slag people off in here...no doubt the ban will follow. But give me a break is this a Scottish forum or not?" It's not about picking someone up on spelling, I know better than to do that but these are two entirely different things. If there's ever a Scottish Nationality Test, it'll probably be one of the questions. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"....... No, they make whisky. Whiskey is made in the US and Ireland. My point still stands. Any idea how much of the profit from whisky distilling stays in Scotland? How many distillers are owned by Scottish companies?" Nope. Perhaps you could enlighten us, O. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"if i vote for independance we will be rulled by brussels (germany pulling the purse strings. we will end up with the euro ( most countries want out of it). then you can double my tax so i can pay for the people who think its there right not to work mmmmm how should i vote lol" No.... If we vote for Independence we will be able to decide our own destiny (Be it being ruled from Edinburgh or Brussels or Timbuktu) rather than let a party with only ONE MP in the whole of Scotland decide our fate for us. We might join the Euro, we might not. Sweden is the third largest country in the EU and still uses the Swedish Krona. The point is, it would be OUR choice. Not some faceless toff from the City of London who makes our decision for us. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Salmons on a dream boat..... How can you ask kids who are currently 14 years old to decide on a countrys future? He needs to get off the ego trip and start thinking about how to improve the important things in the country like unemployment, the roads.... need I say more!!" taxation with out reprentaion is wrong what ever age you are | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"unfortunatly there are many people who reside in Scotland that dont want Scotland to be free from the shackles of the english public school dominated tory party , the good news is that none of these people are truly Scots . its a very strange people that think that the english have their best interests at haert and will run their country for them for the better . Freedom in 2014 , its the only way "theres also folk that just watch braveheart and run around shouting freedom with no concept of what freedom entails | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"International law covers the dividing up of jointly-held assets; north sea is a geographical asset, and as such, the part of the north-sea that is england's area (about 14% of the oil fields) would stay with London, the rest would stay with Scotland. Failure to adhere to this would be illegal under UK and EU law, as well as international treaty. Westminster, including the Tories, Labour and Lib-Dems, have all agreed the north-sea oil in Scotland's area would go to Scotland, no questions. Anyone saying otherwise is either ill-informed, or lying. Independence is nothing to do with Alex Salmond, who is a party leader; if you don't like his policies, you don't vote for his party. Devomax is pointless because the strings would still be held by London, and the ripoff would continue. Right now, Scotland pays 10.3% of the UK taxes, but only receives 9.3% of UK spend - this INCLUDES all monies spent on our behalf in the UK as a whole (ie defence, uk-govt stuff, foreign office etc.). We're being ripped off. If you don't believe me, read the GERS report, by the UK govt. which says this. Large numbers of international companies have said they will not change their plans, based upon independence (ie. they won't leave etc.) - the people saying otherwise are trying to scaremonger. Why? Why if Scotland is so poor, so wee, so stupid, are London fighting to keep us? If we were a drain on their economy, if we "needed" them so much, the Tories would be trying to ditch Scotland. Fact is, London is dependent on the north-sea oil revenues, the whisky and tourism revenues etc. backing up Scotland. Last time they were banging their drum about how Scotland is too poor and stupid to survive on it's own, they were saying "if you go independent, you'll lose your AAA credit rating." Yeah. That went well for them (the UK as a whole lost it because of London's inability to stop pouring money down the drain). Scotland is fiscally better off than the rest of the UK, and is paying, subsidising to keep London afloat. Without London, and without the right-wing parties that the south-east of England loves, but by and large Scotland hates, we will be better off. Look at all the policies of the current UK Govt. Ask yourself if this is what you want; the bedroom tax, student fees, the pensions cap, the pensions raid, the rise in VAT, the rise in fuel duty, the 10p tax band being abolished, the tax cuts for millionaires, the savage and brutal cuts to disability benefits, literally taking the money from the poor and elderly...all of this from a government that Scotland DIDN'T ELECT! 1 Tory MP in Scotland, 1. Yet we suffer their policies. Like the SNP or not, at least Scotland elected them. Giving Holyrood control over Scottish benefits, tax incomes, social policies and economic policy is NOT a bad thing. London just don't want to lose the money and power.... As with everyone in politics, follow the money. We're subsidising London, not the other way around. I can't link the report, but google "GERS" and also "The McCrone Report". Sorry for the long post..." Wholeheartedly agree. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'd love to go it alone,but having watched and listened to the antics of our Scots ministers in the parliment building ,I'm just not convinced this bunch of idiots would govern us well. If we vote for it then let's give it a damn good go. If we vote against it, then let's be proud to be British and get rid of our wee pretendy Scottish parliment as well and forget any notion of being a half hearted devolved government." I coz the ones down south have done such a great job huh | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Salmons on a dream boat..............." ........ and it's taking water. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"there is only one hope for us all and that is to break free from the shackles our southern neighbour would ensnare us in . vote for freedom while we have the chance , if this goes by us then Scotland will just become a memory remembered by some when they see an old shortbread tin . We stand on a knife edge , on one side is freedom , until we get invaded by the southern hordes again , because they certianly dont want to relinquish there grasp on Scotlands resources , on the other side of the knife edge is oblivion , Scotland will cease to exsist in any meaningful form , useful only for providing bodies to be mangled in the next illigal war that they go to wage Scotland needs to stand up and accept the challange of freedom , regardless of the odds "wtf are you serious shackles, ensnared, on a knifes edge there will always be a scotland always has been even while part of the union. as for stand up and accept the challenge thats a matter of opinion scotland has been stripped bare over the years to just seperate now would be the end of scotland. scottish first british second but feel no need to change for independence independant pverty is still poverty major countrys cant survive in this climate but some seem to think they can build a country in it utter nonsense is my view and will definatly have my vote heard on polling day | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"........ Both sides are going to spin to their advantage but don't just read the 'British' press take on it - if you haven't also read http://www.newsnetscotland.com/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx............" NewsnetScotland is the inhouse journal for Gordon Lamb House. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"There are people in Scotland who absolutly hate the thought of Scotland being a free and independant country , fortunatly no real Scot thinks that way .There is no such thing as Scots first and british second , you are either Scots or one of the other folk that are desperate to keep Scotland shackled to the fag end of the english empire . Every true Scot would be happy to see Scotland a free but poor country than a desperate wee non entity being givin nice wee handouts of english silver by osbourne , posh dave and his cardboard cut out mate clegg . If Scotland cannot break free from this desperate situation of handouts from south of the border then we are doomed as a country .Its a very strange mindset for people to have where they would rather have whats left of their country and resources run by a bunch from the english public school system who couldnt even get a rail franchise sorted than have the courage to stand tall and govern ourselves . By abdicating our governance to a country south of the border we deserve all the contempt that they actually feel for us . Scotland Freedom or a Desert "So I'm not a real scot !!!!! What total and utter nonsense ..... Just because folk don't agree with you doesn't make them unpatriotic | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"There are people in Scotland who absolutly hate the thought of Scotland being a free and independant country , fortunatly no real Scot thinks that way .There is no such thing as Scots first and british second , you are either Scots or one of the other folk that are desperate to keep Scotland shackled to the fag end of the english empire . Every true Scot would be happy to see Scotland a free but poor country than a desperate wee non entity being givin nice wee handouts of english silver by osbourne , posh dave and his cardboard cut out mate clegg . If Scotland cannot break free from this desperate situation of handouts from south of the border then we are doomed as a country .Its a very strange mindset for people to have where they would rather have whats left of their country and resources run by a bunch from the english public school system who couldnt even get a rail franchise sorted than have the courage to stand tall and govern ourselves . By abdicating our governance to a country south of the border we deserve all the contempt that they actually feel for us . Scotland Freedom or a Desert
So I'm not a real scot !!!!! What total and utter nonsense ..... Just because folk don't agree with you doesn't make them unpatriotic "exactly cutie xenophobic attitudes are so passe and not in keeping with the new world i am scottish first and british second just because your view dont agree with mine dont make it wrong my view the cry of freedom n bleating on about past events keeps you there in the past move forward with whats best for the country not relive old hates from days gone by | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"There are people in Scotland who absolutly hate the thought of Scotland being a free and independant country , fortunatly no real Scot thinks that way .There is no such thing as Scots first and british second , you are either Scots or one of the other folk that are desperate to keep Scotland shackled to the fag end of the english empire . Every true Scot would be happy to see Scotland a free but poor country than a desperate wee non entity being givin nice wee handouts of english silver by osbourne , posh dave and his cardboard cut out mate clegg . If Scotland cannot break free from this desperate situation of handouts from south of the border then we are doomed as a country .Its a very strange mindset for people to have where they would rather have whats left of their country and resources run by a bunch from the english public school system who couldnt even get a rail franchise sorted than have the courage to stand tall and govern ourselves . By abdicating our governance to a country south of the border we deserve all the contempt that they actually feel for us . Scotland Freedom or a Desert
So I'm not a real scot !!!!! What total and utter nonsense ..... Just because folk don't agree with you doesn't make them unpatriotic exactly cutie xenophobic attitudes are so passe and not in keeping with the new world i am scottish first and british second just because your view dont agree with mine dont make it wrong my view the cry of freedom n bleating on about past events keeps you there in the past move forward with whats best for the country not relive old hates from days gone by "Exactly this..... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
At the end of the day whatever happens the politicians "in charge" will never make it any better for the " normal" folk living here..... No matter what they say | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This sort of argument is more likely to turn people away from independence. It's the worst kind of nationalism, parochial and borderline xenophobicj" | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This sort of argument is more likely to turn people away from independence. It's the worst kind of nationalism, parochial and borderline xenophobicj" . Totally agree I'm all for independence my hope that it will improve things with our English friends | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"There are people in Scotland who absolutly hate the thought of Scotland being a free and independant country , fortunatly no real Scot thinks that way ............" This is simply nonsense and a slur on many true Scots. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I vote for independence when the zombie plague infects the rest of the UK... thankfully eating porridge everyday (with salt) is the only cure" Aw no I hate porridge with salt.... I'm doomed  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I vote for independence when the zombie plague infects the rest of the UK... thankfully eating porridge everyday (with salt) is the only cure Aw no I hate porridge with salt.... I'm doomed "u can have my oats any day cant believe u fell into that harharharrrrr | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yeah ok I shall pack up and move
At the end of the day whatever happens the politicians "in charge" will never make it any better for the " normal" folk living here..... No matter what they say "You can always run away with me cutie. As long as you can stand running away with an Englishman
It's always interesting when I read how bad the English are but let's not forget, the English have it no better either. I've never met an honest politician in my life. They are only interested in what's in it for them but I still believe even after reading all the arguments for and against thy Scotland would be better off letting Westminster pay but having more power and control. So devomax seems the best option to me | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I vote for independence when the zombie plague infects the rest of the UK... thankfully eating porridge everyday (with salt) is the only cure Aw no I hate porridge with salt.... I'm doomed
u can have my oats any day
cant believe u fell into that harharharrrrr"It's cause I'm innocent | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
In fact maybe it's best if we don't talk anymore I might get lynched | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Who would have thought that things in Scotland could have come to this situation where people will actually be voting their country out of exsistance ? to lose your country because it has been overrun by a larger forighn power is a regrettable thing to have happen , but to actually vote to extinguish your country to ensure it is forever north englandshire is a most worrying thing . there cant be too many countrys on this planet that would actually contemplate such folly "Do you honestly think Scotland will cease to exist????? I've read with great interest all of what you've said but that's just a daft thing to say. Scotland will ALWAYS exist! Any proud scot will tell you that. And to suggest anything else is just stupid | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Ah but if I run away with you Andy I won't be a true scot
In fact maybe it's best if we don't talk anymore I might get lynched "I'm really of Italian descent - so I think you may be ok cutie. Lets run off to Hawaii and eat pasta and doughnuts as it seems that Scotland is about to cease to exist.
But seriously, what's wrong with governing yourself whilst having the back up of the rest of the United Kingdom? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Who would have thought that things in Scotland could have come to this situation where people will actually be voting their country out of exsistance ? to lose your country because it has been overrun by a larger forighn power is a regrettable thing to have happen , but to actually vote to extinguish your country to ensure it is forever north englandshire is a most worrying thing . there cant be too many countrys on this planet that would actually contemplate such folly "This is the sort of scaremongering they cybernats have had to descend to 'cos they have no other arguments. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"................ But seriously, what's wrong with governing yourself whilst having the back up of the rest of the United Kingdom? "What makes you think a separate Scotland would have 'the back up of the rest of the United Kingdom?' | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"................ But seriously, what's wrong with governing yourself whilst having the back up of the rest of the United Kingdom?
What makes you think a separate Scotland would have 'the back up of the rest of the United Kingdom?' "That's my point! At least with devomax it would have the back up and still set most of its own laws | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"the backup might be a most unpalatable thing , as a free country we would have all our own laws , once their backup is in place you might never get rid of it , several examples still excist arround the world , it might be a very painful road we have to travel , but a free people should not shirk it , better that than puppets on a string , dancing to a southern tune for their ammusement . we had a saying in the Airborne " no pain , no gain " "Unfortunately, not many ordinary people will want to lose any more of their hard earned money to satisfy the minority. So there goes the no pain no gain theory | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"they dont care because they have no pride , they have no pride because they have nocountry to be proud of , " I think you are wrong there. They have no pride because of their upbringing. It has nothing to do with having a country to be proud of. I'm always being told my kids are polite and yet I've never heard any of their friends say please or Thankyou. I'd be mortified if my kids were rude! It's about upbringing! Its not about not having a country to be proud of. If you want a perfect independent Scotland then I think you are out of luck. Thanks to the human rights act being paraded around people are frightened to chastise their kids. Kids these days get away with far more than when you and I were young but it has nothing to do with Scotland as a country. Common courtesy has one out the window and rudeness and ignorance reigns. Is an independent Scotland going to change that? No. Neither will a Scotland under British rule. We would all be better off telling Europe to stick it where the sun doesn't shine and working as a United Kingdom to get back to old fashioned values where everyone is polite and wants to work not sit on their asses. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
".......... one of my young nephews is into this warhammer stuff , his side has a motto , its a bit cheasy , but all the same i rather like it . In the fight for Scotland there can be no Pity No Remorse No Surrender i kind of like it , has a certian ring to it . "So all those who disagree will be put to the sword? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"........ Both sides are going to spin to their advantage but don't just read the 'British' press take on it - if you haven't also read http://www.newsnetscotland.com/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx............ NewsnetScotland is the inhouse journal for Gordon Lamb House." As the BBC, The Scotsman, The Glasgow Herald etc etc are the in-house journals for the unionist trio. As I said, BOTH sides will spin, but don't just listen to one set of spin. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"........ Both sides are going to spin to their advantage but don't just read the 'British' press take on it - if you haven't also read http://www.newsnetscotland.com/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx............ NewsnetScotland is the inhouse journal for Gordon Lamb House. As the BBC, The Scotsman, The Glasgow Herald etc etc are the in-house journals for the unionist trio. As I said, BOTH sides will spin, but don't just listen to one set of spin." That really IS cybernat paranoia. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"What if you live on the West Coast and don't want to be ruled by Edinburgh? "That's just silly | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"What a great thread this has been thanks folks Its really got u talking and debating xx "I agree.nice not to have a thread ruinef by mindless "banter" for once. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
