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Trans in sports
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Should trans women be allowed to compete in women's sports events or vice versa trans men. Is it an unfair advantage for a women that was born a man taking part against a woman born a woman ?
I think if they want to compete then give them their own category. Let's see how trans men competing against trans women ends up. I already know who will come out the winner of that match up. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Been debated to death in The Lounge over recent weeks.
Compete in the category which corresponds to your biological sex, not your gender."
Never seen it what was the general consensus. ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Been debated to death in The Lounge over recent weeks.
Compete in the category which corresponds to your biological sex, not your gender.
Never seen it what was the general consensus. ? "
That I'm a bigot  |
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"Been debated to death in The Lounge over recent weeks.
Compete in the category which corresponds to your biological sex, not your gender.
Never seen it what was the general consensus. ?
That I'm a bigot "
You're not  x |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Been debated to death in The Lounge over recent weeks.
Compete in the category which corresponds to your biological sex, not your gender.
Never seen it what was the general consensus. ?
That I'm a bigot "
Me and you both |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think trans athletes should compete against other trans athletes . Trans world sports "
Agree with this, male v male, female v female, trans v trans. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think trans athletes should compete against other trans athletes . Trans world sports
Agree with this, male v male, female v female, trans v trans. "
To be fair though there wouldn't be enough trans athletes to be able to create a separate category. So case could be made for a female category, then an "open" category for whoever wanted to enter, regardless of their sex or how they identified. Goes without saying though that category would obviously be dominated by biological men. But at least it would be transparent. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"There is a reason why I love the equestrian sports. Every one competes on the same level regardless of gender.
Perhaps that is the way forward....  "
How do assign gender to the horse though , it might look like a stallion , be hung like a stalion but feel like it should have been born a woman. We won't know and God forbid we wrongly categorise the fuckin thing.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Do people know anything about the requirements for a transgender woman to compete in woman’s sports before they give their tuppence worth? I’m guessing no. Especially when so many pro athletes AFAB have no issues with a transgender women competing against them because they do understand the requirements. Also, why even start this thread? It reeks of transphobia. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Do people know anything about the requirements for a transgender woman to compete in woman’s sports before they give their tuppence worth? I’m guessing no. Especially when so many pro athletes AFAB have no issues with a transgender women competing against them because they do understand the requirements. Also, why even start this thread? It reeks of transphobia.
Of course it reeks of transphobia because no matter what the subject , be it blm, trans, women's rights , you cant have a normal discussion nowadays without the pro party claiming your transphobia, racist or a misogynist. It's the go to argument in every discussion nowadays. Unfortunately I don't buy into your views and trying to shame the discussion says more about your lack of discussion skills as opposed my motivation for starting the thread. 
If anyone has ever had to call you transphobic, racist or a misogynist, there would be a reason for that. "
Only you so what was that reason again ? |
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"Do people know anything about the requirements for a transgender woman to compete in woman’s sports before they give their tuppence worth? I’m guessing no. Especially when so many pro athletes AFAB have no issues with a transgender women competing against them because they do understand the requirements. Also, why even start this thread? It reeks of transphobia.
Of course it reeks of transphobia because no matter what the subject , be it blm, trans, women's rights , you cant have a normal discussion nowadays without the pro party claiming your transphobia, racist or a misogynist. It's the go to argument in every discussion nowadays. Unfortunately I don't buy into your views and trying to shame the discussion says more about your lack of discussion skills as opposed my motivation for starting the thread.
If anyone has ever had to call you transphobic, racist or a misogynist, there would be a reason for that. "
Just because you don't like what was said, doesn't make the person who said it transphobic.
To answer your question, yes I am fully aware of the requirements and understand them and no not all athletes support trans athletes competing in the gender category they identify with.
Not all sports governing bodies have the same requirements and the requirements are different at all sports levels.
The sad thing is, men only have opinions on this from an observer point of view since ftm trans athletes are not even competing at any significant level in men's sports. It's women's sports that are being impacted and female athletes for the most part are not supporting it.
There is far more biological and otherwise scientific research and data to support the fact that mtf athletes who transition after puberty retain all of the physical advantage males have over females in sport and none of the disadvantages yet its those that are not educated and dint understand the situation that have the loudest voice other than those athletes that are switching genders and competing.
Not much gets said that every single mtf athlete is unable to compete at the highest levels in their biologically assigned gender yet smash records when they compete in their self identified gender.
This is not transphobia. You can support trans rights with regards to having the same human rights as everyone without supporting their desire to compete against biologically assigned females after they transition. A point of note, not all sports governing bodies require a significant level of transitioning.
When they greatest trans athlete of all time disagrees with trans athletes not competing in the gender category they were biologically assigned then you know that something is wrong when they are called transphobic by cisgendered people trying to be "inclusive" |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do people know anything about the requirements for a transgender woman to compete in woman’s sports before they give their tuppence worth? I’m guessing no. Especially when so many pro athletes AFAB have no issues with a transgender women competing against them because they do understand the requirements. Also, why even start this thread? It reeks of transphobia."
Disagreeing or questioning something does not make you transphobic or a bigot.
Sharon Davies (former Olympic medalist) knows more than most and she is dead against it. Most other high profile female athletes are well aware how this could affect sponsorship deals and their image if they dare to ask questions. |
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No, trans people should not be allowed to compete in their chosen genders league. I still don't get why people fail to understand how ridiculous it is to allow a man who has lived 30yrs of his life as a man, 6"4, muscular physique of a man, faster response times of a man, trained as a man... to then spend 2yrs on hormones and is allowed to compete with women and destroy everyone in that league, taking away the dreams and hard work of the women competing. But I guess that makes me a transphobic bigot. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This is a hard subject to debate yes maybe some sports a trans person may have an advantage but not all sports example curling ,snooker,football etc .
"
It's not hard.
Any sport where the outcome depends on strength or speed (so the majority of sports), biological men will have a natural advantage.
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By *lex D.Man
over a year ago
London |
"Should trans women be allowed to compete in women's sports events or vice versa trans men. Is it an unfair advantage for a women that was born a man taking part against a woman born a woman ?
I think if they want to compete then give them their own category. Let's see how trans men competing against trans women ends up. I already know who will come out the winner of that match up. "
Genetics alone holds that trans women will have competitive advantage in sport. It would be welcoming to hear the views of the trans community on this matter.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Should trans women be allowed to compete in women's sports events or vice versa trans men. Is it an unfair advantage for a women that was born a man taking part against a woman born a woman ?
I think if they want to compete then give them their own category. Let's see how trans men competing against trans women ends up. I already know who will come out the winner of that match up.
Genetics alone holds that trans women will have competitive advantage in sport. It would be welcoming to hear the views of the trans community on this matter.
"
Their view is that we're transphobic and need educated. |
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Well actually as a member of the Trans community I will give my thoughts.
Yes Trans athletes should be able to compete in the group assign to there chosen gender, providing that they meet all the relevant requirements for that sport.
What I think some people are not aware of is that by taking estrogen and a testosterone blocker this actually reduces the strength and endurance in trans women therefore it brings them more closer to his women.
There are some sports were it would be difficult and I can accept that and that would require more discussion within that actual sports arena.
However on the general point yes I would say that saying that trans people can't compete in accordance with there gender is transphobic we should all support equality and allow the athletes to make the more difficult decisions.
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By *arteeneWoman
over a year ago
aylesbury |
"Should trans women be allowed to compete in women's sports events or vice versa trans men. Is it an unfair advantage for a women that was born a man taking part against a woman born a woman ?
I think if they want to compete then give them their own category. Let's see how trans men competing against trans women ends up. I already know who will come out the winner of that match up.
Genetics alone holds that trans women will have competitive advantage in sport. It would be welcoming to hear the views of the trans community on this matter.
"
I am a transgender female with a female birth certificate .
As I said in my previous post some sports I agree a trans female or trans male may have advantage over the cis person .
But going through your transition and taking the hormones you need to get there you lose all of your Strength and your body shape changes |
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By *arteeneWoman
over a year ago
aylesbury |
"Well actually as a member of the Trans community I will give my thoughts.
Yes Trans athletes should be able to compete in the group assign to there chosen gender, providing that they meet all the relevant requirements for that sport.
What I think some people are not aware of is that by taking estrogen and a testosterone blocker this actually reduces the strength and endurance in trans women therefore it brings them more closer to his women.
There are some sports were it would be difficult and I can accept that and that would require more discussion within that actual sports arena.
However on the general point yes I would say that saying that trans people can't compete in accordance with there gender is transphobic we should all support equality and allow the athletes to make the more difficult decisions.
Absolutely well said
"
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"This is a hard subject to debate yes maybe some sports a trans person may have an advantage but not all sports example curling ,snooker,football etc .
"
It's not really a difficult subject to debate of everyone allows the debate to happen and they don't get rude or offensive.
Yes some sports can be mixed gendered but if there is any level of athleticism involved then I think there needs to be a divide. One of the many reasons there are women's sports and men's sports.
If there is no difference between a person born as a male and a person born as a female competing in sport, what would happen if we just said every sport is mixed gendered and only the best get picked to play?
It's almost a guarantee that every sport will have only males playing and there will be a new argument of "underrepresentation of other genders" and teams will be forced to have minimum of each gender in their organisation. Not because they are the best players but because they need to be inclusive. Which is again one of the many reasons women have their own leagues.
Regarding football, that is a sport that can't be mixed in my opinion as it definitely involves athleticism |
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"Should trans women be allowed to compete in women's sports events or vice versa trans men. Is it an unfair advantage for a women that was born a man taking part against a woman born a woman ?
I think if they want to compete then give them their own category. Let's see how trans men competing against trans women ends up. I already know who will come out the winner of that match up.
Genetics alone holds that trans women will have competitive advantage in sport. It would be welcoming to hear the views of the trans community on this matter.
Their view is that we're transphobic and need educated. "
It's unfair to generalise. Not all trans people agree that trans females should be allowed to compete with females.
The greatest trans athletes of all time, for one, publicly disagrees. |
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"Well actually as a member of the Trans community I will give my thoughts.
Yes Trans athletes should be able to compete in the group assign to there chosen gender, providing that they meet all the relevant requirements for that sport.
What I think some people are not aware of is that by taking estrogen and a testosterone blocker this actually reduces the strength and endurance in trans women therefore it brings them more closer to his women.
There are some sports were it would be difficult and I can accept that and that would require more discussion within that actual sports arena.
However on the general point yes I would say that saying that trans people can't compete in accordance with there gender is transphobic we should all support equality and allow the athletes to make the more difficult decisions.
"
You are not even close to being accurate with your opinion.
During male puberty, muscle growth, lean muscle mass, lung capacity, bone density, skeletal structure, tendon size etc all developes far beyond that of a females. Two years, which is minimum for Olympic competition, of being on medication to reduce testosterone not reverse any of the advantages gained from going through puberty as a male.
The current IOC regulation states that trans female athletes must maintain a testosterone level below 5 nanomoles per litre to be able to compete as a female. Cisgendered females average between 0.12 and 1.79 nanomoles per litre and anything measured above the average natural levels will be flagged as elevetated testosterone levels and they will be banned. So trans athletes are allowed to compete with almost 5 times the testosterone levels of natural females. You still think that is fair?
Another point to mention is that studies show that although strength does decrease with hormone therapy, ot does not decrease to a level comparative with natural females and that trans athletes on intensive hormone therapy still hold a significant advantage over natural females for as little as 36 months after starting hormone therapy. So one full year after the minimum requirement set by the IOC.
Do you at least see where that could be an issue of unfeairn advantage? |
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"Should trans women be allowed to compete in women's sports events or vice versa trans men. Is it an unfair advantage for a women that was born a man taking part against a woman born a woman ?
I think if they want to compete then give them their own category. Let's see how trans men competing against trans women ends up. I already know who will come out the winner of that match up.
Genetics alone holds that trans women will have competitive advantage in sport. It would be welcoming to hear the views of the trans community on this matter.
I am a transgender female with a female birth certificate .
As I said in my previous post some sports I agree a trans female or trans male may have advantage over the cis person .
But going through your transition and taking the hormones you need to get there you lose all of your Strength and your body shape changes "
You definitely do not "lose all your strength". That is scientifically inaccurate |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Love colombian trans lady. Have great ass and niples "
And you'd be better off picking them in your side for rounders before me.
Fuck, you might even get yer hole out of it too.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Well actually as a member of the Trans community I will give my thoughts.
Yes Trans athletes should be able to compete in the group assign to there chosen gender, providing that they meet all the relevant requirements for that sport.
What I think some people are not aware of is that by taking estrogen and a testosterone blocker this actually reduces the strength and endurance in trans women therefore it brings them more closer to his women.
There are some sports were it would be difficult and I can accept that and that would require more discussion within that actual sports arena.
However on the general point yes I would say that saying that trans people can't compete in accordance with there gender is transphobic we should all support equality and allow the athletes to make the more difficult decisions.
You are not even close to being accurate with your opinion.
During male puberty, muscle growth, lean muscle mass, lung capacity, bone density, skeletal structure, tendon size etc all developes far beyond that of a females. Two years, which is minimum for Olympic competition, of being on medication to reduce testosterone not reverse any of the advantages gained from going through puberty as a male.
The current IOC regulation states that trans female athletes must maintain a testosterone level below 5 nanomoles per litre to be able to compete as a female. Cisgendered females average between 0.12 and 1.79 nanomoles per litre and anything measured above the average natural levels will be flagged as elevetated testosterone levels and they will be banned. So trans athletes are allowed to compete with almost 5 times the testosterone levels of natural females. You still think that is fair?
Another point to mention is that studies show that although strength does decrease with hormone therapy, ot does not decrease to a level comparative with natural females and that trans athletes on intensive hormone therapy still hold a significant advantage over natural females for as little as 36 months after starting hormone therapy. So one full year after the minimum requirement set by the IOC.
Do you at least see where that could be an issue of unfeairn advantage? "
Definitely unfair, why does the regulations pick 5 nanomoles when cisgendered females have less nanomoles, sounds crazy if you ask me. Definitely not a level playing field. |
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"Well actually as a member of the Trans community I will give my thoughts.
Yes Trans athletes should be able to compete in the group assign to there chosen gender, providing that they meet all the relevant requirements for that sport.
What I think some people are not aware of is that by taking estrogen and a testosterone blocker this actually reduces the strength and endurance in trans women therefore it brings them more closer to his women.
There are some sports were it would be difficult and I can accept that and that would require more discussion within that actual sports arena.
However on the general point yes I would say that saying that trans people can't compete in accordance with there gender is transphobic we should all support equality and allow the athletes to make the more difficult decisions.
You are not even close to being accurate with your opinion.
During male puberty, muscle growth, lean muscle mass, lung capacity, bone density, skeletal structure, tendon size etc all developes far beyond that of a females. Two years, which is minimum for Olympic competition, of being on medication to reduce testosterone not reverse any of the advantages gained from going through puberty as a male.
The current IOC regulation states that trans female athletes must maintain a testosterone level below 5 nanomoles per litre to be able to compete as a female. Cisgendered females average between 0.12 and 1.79 nanomoles per litre and anything measured above the average natural levels will be flagged as elevetated testosterone levels and they will be banned. So trans athletes are allowed to compete with almost 5 times the testosterone levels of natural females. You still think that is fair?
Another point to mention is that studies show that although strength does decrease with hormone therapy, ot does not decrease to a level comparative with natural females and that trans athletes on intensive hormone therapy still hold a significant advantage over natural females for as little as 36 months after starting hormone therapy. So one full year after the minimum requirement set by the IOC.
Do you at least see where that could be an issue of unfeairn advantage?
Definitely unfair, why does the regulations pick 5 nanomoles when cisgendered females have less nanomoles, sounds crazy if you ask me. Definitely not a level playing field. "
Because a male athlete on hormone therapy can never get their testosterone levels low enough in the short amount of time the IOC permits.
What people need to remember is we are talking about athletes. Not regular every day people. An elite athlete, male or female, will be superior in athleticism to the average person of an gender but comparing elite to elite then there is no way it is fair. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels. |
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"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels. "
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man. "
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion |
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"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion "
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X"
Bullshit.
You back peddle like a man. |
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By *avie65Man
over a year ago
In the west. |
"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
Bullshit.
You back peddle like a man."
Men, back peddle!!!! Never. |
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"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
Bullshit.
You back peddle like a man."
Nae back pedalling. The cycle CANNOT be reversed! |
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Biological males have had all of their teensd to build muscle, height, endurance etc. One such athlete (one of the recent headline grabbers) competed in his late teens and twenties as the biological male he was born and to no great success in mens sport.
To suddenly at some point in your 20's or 30's decide that you are going to compete as a woman is simply taking the piss. Especially when you immediately win against a field of elite female athletes.
Trans athletics for trans athletes. That way the effects of a decade of male teenage muscle-building which might be slowly retreating under Estrogen and Testosterone blocker traeatments can be paced against similarly affected athletes. There would be a huge audience for these kind of track events, swimming, cycling etc. certainly among the trans community. Trans sports for trans sports people. Mens sports for men. Women's sports for women. No-one using unfair advantage.
Quite simple really. |
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By *arteeneWoman
over a year ago
aylesbury |
"Should trans women be allowed to compete in women's sports events or vice versa trans men. Is it an unfair advantage for a women that was born a man taking part against a woman born a woman ?
I think if they want to compete then give them their own category. Let's see how trans men competing against trans women ends up. I already know who will come out the winner of that match up.
Genetics alone holds that trans women will have competitive advantage in sport. It would be welcoming to hear the views of the trans community on this matter.
I am a transgender female with a female birth certificate .
As I said in my previous post some sports I agree a trans female or trans male may have advantage over the cis person .
But going through your transition and taking the hormones you need to get there you lose all of your Strength and your body shape changes
You definitely do not "lose all your strength". That is scientifically inaccurate "
I think
You find you do you lose muscle mass |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Biological males have had all of their teensd to build muscle, height, endurance etc. One such athlete (one of the recent headline grabbers) competed in his late teens and twenties as the biological male he was born and to no great success in mens sport.
To suddenly at some point in your 20's or 30's decide that you are going to compete as a woman is simply taking the piss. Especially when you immediately win against a field of elite female athletes.
Trans athletics for trans athletes. That way the effects of a decade of male teenage muscle-building which might be slowly retreating under Estrogen and Testosterone blocker traeatments can be paced against similarly affected athletes. There would be a huge audience for these kind of track events, swimming, cycling etc. certainly among the trans community. Trans sports for trans sports people. Mens sports for men. Women's sports for women. No-one using unfair advantage.
Quite simple really."
Hey if there was tran sports I'd definitely convert to trans , my transport would be a formula 1 car in the olympic marathon event . |
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"Should trans women be allowed to compete in women's sports events or vice versa trans men. Is it an unfair advantage for a women that was born a man taking part against a woman born a woman ?
I think if they want to compete then give them their own category. Let's see how trans men competing against trans women ends up. I already know who will come out the winner of that match up.
Genetics alone holds that trans women will have competitive advantage in sport. It would be welcoming to hear the views of the trans community on this matter.
I am a transgender female with a female birth certificate .
As I said in my previous post some sports I agree a trans female or trans male may have advantage over the cis person .
But going through your transition and taking the hormones you need to get there you lose all of your Strength and your body shape changes
You definitely do not "lose all your strength". That is scientifically inaccurate
I think
You find you do you lose muscle mass "
Other than your anecdotal evidence, the facts are, a body builder who stops lifting weights for 2 years will also lose muscle mass but that doesn't mean their testosterone or even their strength depletes to the levels of a female. Muscle mass does not equate to increased strength. ?Your testosterone levels and your muscle mass or strength are not directly correlated.
This also does not counteract all of the advantages gained through going through puberty as a male |
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"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels. "
Because that is the argument trans athletes and governing bodies allowing trans athletes to compete against women use to excuse their behaviour. Its a very easily debunked narrative that reducing testosterone levels the playing field. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Because that is the argument trans athletes and governing bodies allowing trans athletes to compete against women use to excuse their behaviour. Its a very easily debunked narrative that reducing testosterone levels the playing field. "
I know.
Can't think of anything scientific or high brow to say other than it's a lot of pish. |
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"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Because that is the argument trans athletes and governing bodies allowing trans athletes to compete against women use to excuse their behaviour. Its a very easily debunked narrative that reducing testosterone levels the playing field.
I know.
Can't think of anything scientific or high brow to say other than it's a lot of pish."
It certainly is. Eloquently put. I like your style. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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OK.
After much careful consideration I'm willing to make a few concessions.
Trans women can compete alongside cistern women if transwomen wear the full riot gear (so heels, sussies, etc) and Cistern women can wear gutties and get a 10 second start.
Seems a fair compromise, no?
|
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"OK.
After much careful consideration I'm willing to make a few concessions.
Trans women can compete alongside cistern women if transwomen wear the full riot gear (so heels, sussies, etc) and Cistern women can wear gutties and get a 10 second start.
Seems a fair compromise, no?
"
Now who's back-pedalling? Gotta keep them calves in tip-top shape to keep up in the backwards Keirin I spose. |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X"
So now females are being referred to as "you lot". Maybe think about this, once a trans female has that operation to remove his penis and testicles and vagina is made, let's not forget that, that female will never have a uterus, fallipian tubes or ovaries. These reproductive organs are developed from birth, a girl into a woman. That is something a trans female will never have so they'll never being able to have a baby naturally. A woman will always be more developed than a man as we will always have these organs x |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
So now females are being referred to as "you lot". Maybe think about this, once a trans female has that operation to remove his penis and testicles and vagina is made, let's not forget that, that female will never have a uterus, fallipian tubes or ovaries. These reproductive organs are developed from birth, a girl into a woman. That is something a trans female will never have so they'll never being able to have a baby naturally. A woman will always be more developed than a man as we will always have these organs x"
Fallopian |
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"OK.
After much careful consideration I'm willing to make a few concessions.
Trans women can compete alongside cistern women if transwomen wear the full riot gear (so heels, sussies, etc) and Cistern women can wear gutties and get a 10 second start.
Seems a fair compromise, no?
"
Pishn at "cistern" |
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or View forums list | |
"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
So now females are being referred to as "you lot". Maybe think about this, once a trans female has that operation to remove his penis and testicles and vagina is made, let's not forget that, that female will never have a uterus, fallipian tubes or ovaries. These reproductive organs are developed from birth, a girl into a woman. That is something a trans female will never have so they'll never being able to have a baby naturally. A woman will always be more developed than a man as we will always have these organs x
Fallopian "
They also get a finger in their erse to check for prostate cancer.
Your birth certificate says you are female, your prostate cancer says otherwise.
However, the subject was about competing against cisgendered women in sports, not who is more of a woman.
That's a whole other layer of menstrual egg shells to walk on. |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
So now females are being referred to as "you lot". Maybe think about this, once a trans female has that operation to remove his penis and testicles and vagina is made, let's not forget that, that female will never have a uterus, fallipian tubes or ovaries. These reproductive organs are developed from birth, a girl into a woman. That is something a trans female will never have so they'll never being able to have a baby naturally. A woman will always be more developed than a man as we will always have these organs x
Fallopian
They also get a finger in their erse to check for prostate cancer.
Your birth certificate says you are female, your prostate cancer says otherwise.
However, the subject was about competing against cisgendered women in sports, not who is more of a woman.
That's a whole other layer of menstrual egg shells to walk on. "
Maybe take that up with Ima as he's the one who suggested women are more underdeveloped than men for some warped reason |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
So now females are being referred to as "you lot". Maybe think about this, once a trans female has that operation to remove his penis and testicles and vagina is made, let's not forget that, that female will never have a uterus, fallipian tubes or ovaries. These reproductive organs are developed from birth, a girl into a woman. That is something a trans female will never have so they'll never being able to have a baby naturally. A woman will always be more developed than a man as we will always have these organs x
Fallopian
They also get a finger in their erse to check for prostate cancer.
Your birth certificate says you are female, your prostate cancer says otherwise.
However, the subject was about competing against cisgendered women in sports, not who is more of a woman.
That's a whole other layer of menstrual egg shells to walk on.
Maybe take that up with Ima as he's the one who suggested women are more underdeveloped than men for some warped reason "
"Ima" I hate to think what the last name is. I do feel a list of suggestions coming though.
I tend to think some comments can be ignored and it doesn't affect the general flow of discussion.
Some comments are funny and others are just so far left that it's pish boilingly infuriating.
As an athlete the trans athletes debate is one that gets me engaged. |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
So now females are being referred to as "you lot". Maybe think about this, once a trans female has that operation to remove his penis and testicles and vagina is made, let's not forget that, that female will never have a uterus, fallipian tubes or ovaries. These reproductive organs are developed from birth, a girl into a woman. That is something a trans female will never have so they'll never being able to have a baby naturally. A woman will always be more developed than a man as we will always have these organs x
Fallopian
They also get a finger in their erse to check for prostate cancer.
Your birth certificate says you are female, your prostate cancer says otherwise.
However, the subject was about competing against cisgendered women in sports, not who is more of a woman.
That's a whole other layer of menstrual egg shells to walk on.
Maybe take that up with Ima as he's the one who suggested women are more underdeveloped than men for some warped reason
"Ima" I hate to think what the last name is. I do feel a list of suggestions coming though.
I tend to think some comments can be ignored and it doesn't affect the general flow of discussion.
Some comments are funny and others are just so far left that it's pish boilingly infuriating.
As an athlete the trans athletes debate is one that gets me engaged. "
Scroll back on the messages, you'll find him x |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
So now females are being referred to as "you lot". Maybe think about this, once a trans female has that operation to remove his penis and testicles and vagina is made, let's not forget that, that female will never have a uterus, fallipian tubes or ovaries. These reproductive organs are developed from birth, a girl into a woman. That is something a trans female will never have so they'll never being able to have a baby naturally. A woman will always be more developed than a man as we will always have these organs x
Fallopian
They also get a finger in their erse to check for prostate cancer.
Your birth certificate says you are female, your prostate cancer says otherwise.
However, the subject was about competing against cisgendered women in sports, not who is more of a woman.
That's a whole other layer of menstrual egg shells to walk on.
Maybe take that up with Ima as he's the one who suggested women are more underdeveloped than men for some warped reason
"Ima" I hate to think what the last name is. I do feel a list of suggestions coming though.
I tend to think some comments can be ignored and it doesn't affect the general flow of discussion.
Some comments are funny and others are just so far left that it's pish boilingly infuriating.
As an athlete the trans athletes debate is one that gets me engaged.
Scroll back on the messages, you'll find him x"
So he said he "used to be one of you lot" so does that mean he is female to male trans? |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
So now females are being referred to as "you lot". Maybe think about this, once a trans female has that operation to remove his penis and testicles and vagina is made, let's not forget that, that female will never have a uterus, fallipian tubes or ovaries. These reproductive organs are developed from birth, a girl into a woman. That is something a trans female will never have so they'll never being able to have a baby naturally. A woman will always be more developed than a man as we will always have these organs x
Fallopian
They also get a finger in their erse to check for prostate cancer.
Your birth certificate says you are female, your prostate cancer says otherwise.
However, the subject was about competing against cisgendered women in sports, not who is more of a woman.
That's a whole other layer of menstrual egg shells to walk on.
Maybe take that up with Ima as he's the one who suggested women are more underdeveloped than men for some warped reason
"Ima" I hate to think what the last name is. I do feel a list of suggestions coming though.
I tend to think some comments can be ignored and it doesn't affect the general flow of discussion.
Some comments are funny and others are just so far left that it's pish boilingly infuriating.
As an athlete the trans athletes debate is one that gets me engaged.
Scroll back on the messages, you'll find him x
So he said he "used to be one of you lot" so does that mean he is female to male trans?"
No he seems to think that when we're all born, embryos are female until our organs are developed into either being female or male x |
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"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
So now females are being referred to as "you lot". Maybe think about this, once a trans female has that operation to remove his penis and testicles and vagina is made, let's not forget that, that female will never have a uterus, fallipian tubes or ovaries. These reproductive organs are developed from birth, a girl into a woman. That is something a trans female will never have so they'll never being able to have a baby naturally. A woman will always be more developed than a man as we will always have these organs x
Fallopian
They also get a finger in their erse to check for prostate cancer.
Your birth certificate says you are female, your prostate cancer says otherwise.
However, the subject was about competing against cisgendered women in sports, not who is more of a woman.
That's a whole other layer of menstrual egg shells to walk on.
Maybe take that up with Ima as he's the one who suggested women are more underdeveloped than men for some warped reason
"Ima" I hate to think what the last name is. I do feel a list of suggestions coming though.
I tend to think some comments can be ignored and it doesn't affect the general flow of discussion.
Some comments are funny and others are just so far left that it's pish boilingly infuriating.
As an athlete the trans athletes debate is one that gets me engaged.
Scroll back on the messages, you'll find him x
So he said he "used to be one of you lot" so does that mean he is female to male trans?
No he seems to think that when we're all born, embryos are female until our organs are developed into either being female or male x"
Oh OK so that was his idea of intellectual humour? Meaning he used to be one before biology assigned his gender in the womb?
Clever....? |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
So now females are being referred to as "you lot". Maybe think about this, once a trans female has that operation to remove his penis and testicles and vagina is made, let's not forget that, that female will never have a uterus, fallipian tubes or ovaries. These reproductive organs are developed from birth, a girl into a woman. That is something a trans female will never have so they'll never being able to have a baby naturally. A woman will always be more developed than a man as we will always have these organs x
Fallopian
They also get a finger in their erse to check for prostate cancer.
Your birth certificate says you are female, your prostate cancer says otherwise.
However, the subject was about competing against cisgendered women in sports, not who is more of a woman.
That's a whole other layer of menstrual egg shells to walk on.
Maybe take that up with Ima as he's the one who suggested women are more underdeveloped than men for some warped reason
"Ima" I hate to think what the last name is. I do feel a list of suggestions coming though.
I tend to think some comments can be ignored and it doesn't affect the general flow of discussion.
Some comments are funny and others are just so far left that it's pish boilingly infuriating.
As an athlete the trans athletes debate is one that gets me engaged.
Scroll back on the messages, you'll find him x
So he said he "used to be one of you lot" so does that mean he is female to male trans?
No he seems to think that when we're all born, embryos are female until our organs are developed into either being female or male x
Oh OK so that was his idea of intellectual humour? Meaning he used to be one before biology assigned his gender in the womb?
Clever....? "
I agree with Miss Muff in the concept of that being "bullshit". Lol. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
So now females are being referred to as "you lot". Maybe think about this, once a trans female has that operation to remove his penis and testicles and vagina is made, let's not forget that, that female will never have a uterus, fallipian tubes or ovaries. These reproductive organs are developed from birth, a girl into a woman. That is something a trans female will never have so they'll never being able to have a baby naturally. A woman will always be more developed than a man as we will always have these organs x
Fallopian
They also get a finger in their erse to check for prostate cancer.
Your birth certificate says you are female, your prostate cancer says otherwise.
However, the subject was about competing against cisgendered women in sports, not who is more of a woman.
That's a whole other layer of menstrual egg shells to walk on.
Maybe take that up with Ima as he's the one who suggested women are more underdeveloped than men for some warped reason
"Ima" I hate to think what the last name is. I do feel a list of suggestions coming though.
I tend to think some comments can be ignored and it doesn't affect the general flow of discussion.
Some comments are funny and others are just so far left that it's pish boilingly infuriating.
As an athlete the trans athletes debate is one that gets me engaged.
Scroll back on the messages, you'll find him x
So he said he "used to be one of you lot" so does that mean he is female to male trans?
No he seems to think that when we're all born, embryos are female until our organs are developed into either being female or male x
Oh OK so that was his idea of intellectual humour? Meaning he used to be one before biology assigned his gender in the womb?
Clever....?
I agree with Miss Muff in the concept of that being "bullshit". Lol. "
He's not wrong though. Just not the most wordsmith way to put it.
He certainly doesn't have the charm of Miss Muff |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Whilst the information regarding test levels is interesting, I've never fully understood why this debate gets so hung up on hormones.
A woman is not simply a man with lower testosterone levels.
Nah - a woman is simply an underdeveloped man.
Really? Please explain. I'm genuinely interested to know how you've come to that conclusion
Because all embryos start life as female before maleness develops in some, so far as I'm aware. Perhaps the 'under' part was a slightly controversial attempt at cheeky, peurile humour. I was once one of you lot, though, so please show empathy for my misdemeanor. X
So now females are being referred to as "you lot". Maybe think about this, once a trans female has that operation to remove his penis and testicles and vagina is made, let's not forget that, that female will never have a uterus, fallipian tubes or ovaries. These reproductive organs are developed from birth, a girl into a woman. That is something a trans female will never have so they'll never being able to have a baby naturally. A woman will always be more developed than a man as we will always have these organs x
Fallopian
They also get a finger in their erse to check for prostate cancer.
Your birth certificate says you are female, your prostate cancer says otherwise.
However, the subject was about competing against cisgendered women in sports, not who is more of a woman.
That's a whole other layer of menstrual egg shells to walk on.
Maybe take that up with Ima as he's the one who suggested women are more underdeveloped than men for some warped reason
"Ima" I hate to think what the last name is. I do feel a list of suggestions coming though.
I tend to think some comments can be ignored and it doesn't affect the general flow of discussion.
Some comments are funny and others are just so far left that it's pish boilingly infuriating.
As an athlete the trans athletes debate is one that gets me engaged.
Scroll back on the messages, you'll find him x
So he said he "used to be one of you lot" so does that mean he is female to male trans?
No he seems to think that when we're all born, embryos are female until our organs are developed into either being female or male x
Oh OK so that was his idea of intellectual humour? Meaning he used to be one before biology assigned his gender in the womb?
Clever....?
I agree with Miss Muff in the concept of that being "bullshit". Lol.
He's not wrong though. Just not the most wordsmith way to put it.
He certainly doesn't have the charm of Miss Muff"
Glad you said that and not me |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Wow, this forum is so much more civilized than the lounge when this subject comes up. It's usually a only matter of nanoseconds before accusations of transphobia are launched like scud missiles
Personally, I don't think that any person who has competed competitively in sport as one gender should ever be allowed to compete again as another gender. Life is all about choices and sacrifices in many different ways. If a man wants to box, let him box as a man. If he wants to transition, then he should never box as a woman against women. He makes his choice and his sacrifice either way, like we all have to.
|
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"Wow, this forum is so much more civilized than the lounge when this subject comes up. It's usually a only matter of nanoseconds before accusations of transphobia are launched like scud missiles
Personally, I don't think that any person who has competed competitively in sport as one gender should ever be allowed to compete again as another gender. Life is all about choices and sacrifices in many different ways. If a man wants to box, let him box as a man. If he wants to transition, then he should never box as a woman against women. He makes his choice and his sacrifice either way, like we all have to.
"
Parinya Charoenphol. She would have murdered females if she decides to fight against women.
Also, it wasn't long before the "transphobic" accusation was slung here too. I think it got drowned by humour and facts though |
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By *leabiteWoman
over a year ago
Glasgow |
So i presume that all those who are troubled by the effects of masculinising puberty on trans women, support the calls for puberty blockers?
Nobody "suddenly decides to be a woman" especially given how stigmatized trans women are in every walk if life. They definitely don't do it to increase access sex and romance as the majority of you reject trans lovers. They are more likely to suffer daily harassment and abuse (verbal, physical and sexual) than any other demographic.
And here on a forum where we're all just trying to have some adult fun you lot have to bring up something irrelevant to most of our lives (many professional sports people here?) which has become a stick to beat trans women with.
It feels like the "gay scare" all over again. Conservatives trying every angle with which to get general public to scapegoat and exclude trans people. They finally got you to take the bait on sports.
Personally i think all sports by definition is "unfair" as genetic advantage always plays such a large part in it. Perhaps having weight/height categories for all sports might give more people the opportunity to compete?
And please support trans healthcare. In Glasgow the nhs waiting list is 4 years from referral to have your first appointment with gender clinic to start the process of transition. Can you imagine how heart breaking to have to put your life (and mental health) on hold for that long before you can start to live the way you know you are?
Or for trans kids forced to let their bodies go through adolescence becoming more and more alienated from your own body with each growth in breasts or facial hair? When a puberty blocker could just put that on hold and give you time to think if you want that puberty or are trans?
I feel like this thread is lacking humanity, compassion and empathy for those dealt a difficult hand in life. |
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"So i presume that all those who are troubled by the effects of masculinising puberty on trans women, support the calls for puberty blockers?
Nobody "suddenly decides to be a woman" especially given how stigmatized trans women are in every walk if life. They definitely don't do it to increase access sex and romance as the majority of you reject trans lovers. They are more likely to suffer daily harassment and abuse (verbal, physical and sexual) than any other demographic.
And here on a forum where we're all just trying to have some adult fun you lot have to bring up something irrelevant to most of our lives (many professional sports people here?) which has become a stick to beat trans women with.
It feels like the "gay scare" all over again. Conservatives trying every angle with which to get general public to scapegoat and exclude trans people. They finally got you to take the bait on sports.
Personally i think all sports by definition is "unfair" as genetic advantage always plays such a large part in it. Perhaps having weight/height categories for all sports might give more people the opportunity to compete?
And please support trans healthcare. In Glasgow the nhs waiting list is 4 years from referral to have your first appointment with gender clinic to start the process of transition. Can you imagine how heart breaking to have to put your life (and mental health) on hold for that long before you can start to live the way you know you are?
Or for trans kids forced to let their bodies go through adolescence becoming more and more alienated from your own body with each growth in breasts or facial hair? When a puberty blocker could just put that on hold and give you time to think if you want that puberty or are trans?
I feel like this thread is lacking humanity, compassion and empathy for those dealt a difficult hand in life. "
Why are you trying to turn a discussion of "fairness in sport" into an argument on trans rights in general and the position of science and research into gender dysphoria?
Your own relevant statement to this post is about weight and health categories in sport to make it fair. I can list many sports where competitors are decided into weight categories, age categories, etc but since you appear to think they don't exist, although loathed to do so, I can only assume your sole qualification for commenting on trans athletes is that you are transgendered.
We can get into a debate as to why puberty blockers are not given to children, why there is a long waiting list for people living with gender dysphoria to be aided in transition through the NHS, how the majority of trans athletes never fully transition with gender reasignment surgery. We can debate how your stance on a debate about fairness in sport triggers fear in you that it is the "gay scare" all over again. We could do that but I worry that you would be deaf to facts and take a view point of "you are quite cis male so your opinion doesn't matter" or "I'm transgenedered so I know everything about the subject" right before the transphobe, fascist, and all the other tactics used to shut down any adult, intelligent debate that goes against your anecdotal evidence to support your wildly inaccurate prose.
Or, you could just say, you don't have enough information about the facts on trans athletes in sport but appreciate that we are not saying transpeople should be silenced or shouldn't be treated with the same human rights as everyone else. Remember same, not better than. |
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Also it's worth noting that just because you identify as something due to a mental health condition, it doesn't mean you get to compete as what you identify as.
I could identify as a 8 year old boy. Doesn't mean I get to compete in my sport in the kids devision. |
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So many red flags in here, I'm surprised it's not overrun by furious bulls. Weirdly still smells like bullshit, though. Many a bigot likes to cry bUt ScIeNcE, when they don't know anything about it, like hateful people who hide behind God; whatever justifies the intolerance. Big cringe.
|
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"So many red flags in here, I'm surprised it's not overrun by furious bulls. Weirdly still smells like bullshit, though. Many a bigot likes to cry bUt ScIeNcE, when they don't know anything about it, like hateful people who hide behind God; whatever justifies the intolerance. Big cringe.
"
Fortunately, i've had a recent decorum update, else there'd be china flying everywhere. |
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I thought I would have my say about and that would be the end of my contribution to this but I can't stand back anymore.
1. Being Trans is NOT a mental health condition so please don't say that it is.
2. Trans people are some of the most vulnerable people in society so please remember that when making jokes about issues that effect us.
3. Just because I will never have children naturally doesn't mean that I am not a woman plus there have been 5 (I believe) Trans women that have successfully have utero transplants which will give them the chance to have children via IVF. Also several trans men have had children.
This forum post was started I feel to spark a debate that really is not needed at this time.
I respect people's right to have different views to myself but please remember that just because you have read something online about science saying something doesn't always mean it's correct.
We only have to look at the early 1980's and HIV was described as a "gay disease" by many of the same scientists.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"So i presume that all those who are troubled by the effects of masculinising puberty on trans women, support the calls for puberty blockers?
Nobody "suddenly decides to be a woman" especially given how stigmatized trans women are in every walk if life. They definitely don't do it to increase access sex and romance as the majority of you reject trans lovers. They are more likely to suffer daily harassment and abuse (verbal, physical and sexual) than any other demographic.
And here on a forum where we're all just trying to have some adult fun you lot have to bring up something irrelevant to most of our lives (many professional sports people here?) which has become a stick to beat trans women with.
It feels like the "gay scare" all over again. Conservatives trying every angle with which to get general public to scapegoat and exclude trans people. They finally got you to take the bait on sports.
Personally i think all sports by definition is "unfair" as genetic advantage always plays such a large part in it. Perhaps having weight/height categories for all sports might give more people the opportunity to compete?
And please support trans healthcare. In Glasgow the nhs waiting list is 4 years from referral to have your first appointment with gender clinic to start the process of transition. Can you imagine how heart breaking to have to put your life (and mental health) on hold for that long before you can start to live the way you know you are?
Or for trans kids forced to let their bodies go through adolescence becoming more and more alienated from your own body with each growth in breasts or facial hair? When a puberty blocker could just put that on hold and give you time to think if you want that puberty or are trans?
I feel like this thread is lacking humanity, compassion and empathy for those dealt a difficult hand in life. "
I feel like your post is lacking in facts.
I don't particularly care about the effects of hormones on transwomen or transmen. Whilst I think it is a mistake to make yourself a life long medical patient, grown adults can do what they like. When competing in sport though, transwomen have an unfair advantage for all of the reasons mentioned in this thread. How about some compassion and empathy for women & girls who have trained their entire lives only to be ousted from a place on a team, or worse, a medal position by a mediocre athlete who previously identified as a man.
Puberty is not an illness so please stop presenting it as one.. Adolescence is a completely normal, albeit, difficult but necessary developmental stage. Studies have shown that when given time and access to counselling and talking therapies most children who believe they are the wrong sex desist and go on to become homosexual men or lesbians or plain old boring heterosexual. Some....some (!) do not, and for those then further support is needed.
Puberty blockers do not provide a pause and their effects are not completely irreversible. This is a lie. You are effectively stunting a child's growth and development to say nothing for the potential psychological effects of "pausing" their development. Hence the reason the NHS changed their guidance to reflect this in 2020.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"So many red flags in here, I'm surprised it's not overrun by furious bulls. Weirdly still smells like bullshit, though. Many a bigot likes to cry bUt ScIeNcE, when they don't know anything about it, like hateful people who hide behind God; whatever justifies the intolerance. Big cringe.
"
And many a person likes to scream bigot when they hear something the don't like. |
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Let me ask around puberty blockers.
Has anyone considered the psychological effects of not giving these to pause or slow down puberty.
Imagine as a AFAB having to watch your breasts grow even though they cause you severe distress.
Then every month being reminded that your not who you are supposed to be.
Or for AMAB growing facial and body hair the voice changing body shape.
Interestingly the NHS wouldn't publish the details of Teens that opted to stop puberty blockers and not transition as I will assume the numbers are well below 1%
This could be true which is why parents need to be given the facts and information so they can decide with there child what is right for them just the same as we do with all medical treatments.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Let me ask around puberty blockers.
Has anyone considered the psychological effects of not giving these to pause or slow down puberty.
Imagine as a AFAB having to watch your breasts grow even though they cause you severe distress.
Then every month being reminded that your not who you are supposed to be.
Or for AMAB growing facial and body hair the voice changing body shape.
Interestingly the NHS wouldn't publish the details of Teens that opted to stop puberty blockers and not transition as I will assume the numbers are well below 1%
This could be true which is why parents need to be given the facts and information so they can decide with there child what is right for them just the same as we do with all medical treatments.
"
There is no such thing as AFAB or AMAB. Your sex is not assigned, it is observed.
I agree that parents need to be given ALL the facts though. Not just those cherry picked by organisations such as Mermaids or Stonewall.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Let me ask around puberty blockers.
Has anyone considered the psychological effects of not giving these to pause or slow down puberty.
Imagine as a AFAB having to watch your breasts grow even though they cause you severe distress.
Then every month being reminded that your not who you are supposed to be.
Or for AMAB growing facial and body hair the voice changing body shape.
Interestingly the NHS wouldn't publish the details of Teens that opted to stop puberty blockers and not transition as I will assume the numbers are well below 1%
This could be true which is why parents need to be given the facts and information so they can decide with there child what is right for them just the same as we do with all medical treatments.
"
Or we could just review the countless detransition videos on YouTube and review the pyschological damage they're enduring permenantly from being unable to turn back? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Let me ask around puberty blockers.
Has anyone considered the psychological effects of not giving these to pause or slow down puberty.
Imagine as a AFAB having to watch your breasts grow even though they cause you severe distress.
Then every month being reminded that your not who you are supposed to be.
Or for AMAB growing facial and body hair the voice changing body shape.
Interestingly the NHS wouldn't publish the details of Teens that opted to stop puberty blockers and not transition as I will assume the numbers are well below 1%
This could be true which is why parents need to be given the facts and information so they can decide with there child what is right for them just the same as we do with all medical treatments.
Or we could just review the countless detransition videos on YouTube and review the pyschological damage they're enduring permenantly from being unable to turn back? "
Sensible suggestion.
Down with this sort of thing! (Waves pitchfork). |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Also it's worth noting that just because you identify as something due to a mental health condition, it doesn't mean you get to compete as what you identify as.
I could identify as a 8 year old boy. Doesn't mean I get to compete in my sport in the kids devision. "
Still trying to say you’re not transphobic? This comment is a fucking disgrace. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"So i presume that all those who are troubled by the effects of masculinising puberty on trans women, support the calls for puberty blockers?
Nobody "suddenly decides to be a woman" especially given how stigmatized trans women are in every walk if life. They definitely don't do it to increase access sex and romance as the majority of you reject trans lovers. They are more likely to suffer daily harassment and abuse (verbal, physical and sexual) than any other demographic.
And here on a forum where we're all just trying to have some adult fun you lot have to bring up something irrelevant to most of our lives (many professional sports people here?) which has become a stick to beat trans women with.
It feels like the "gay scare" all over again. Conservatives trying every angle with which to get general public to scapegoat and exclude trans people. They finally got you to take the bait on sports.
Personally i think all sports by definition is "unfair" as genetic advantage always plays such a large part in it. Perhaps having weight/height categories for all sports might give more people the opportunity to compete?
And please support trans healthcare. In Glasgow the nhs waiting list is 4 years from referral to have your first appointment with gender clinic to start the process of transition. Can you imagine how heart breaking to have to put your life (and mental health) on hold for that long before you can start to live the way you know you are?
Or for trans kids forced to let their bodies go through adolescence becoming more and more alienated from your own body with each growth in breasts or facial hair? When a puberty blocker could just put that on hold and give you time to think if you want that puberty or are trans?
I feel like this thread is lacking humanity, compassion and empathy for those dealt a difficult hand in life.
I feel like your post is lacking in facts.
I don't particularly care about the effects of hormones on transwomen or transmen. Whilst I think it is a mistake to make yourself a life long medical patient, grown adults can do what they like. When competing in sport though, transwomen have an unfair advantage for all of the reasons mentioned in this thread. How about some compassion and empathy for women & girls who have trained their entire lives only to be ousted from a place on a team, or worse, a medal position by a mediocre athlete who previously identified as a man.
Puberty is not an illness so please stop presenting it as one.. Adolescence is a completely normal, albeit, difficult but necessary developmental stage. Studies have shown that when given time and access to counselling and talking therapies most children who believe they are the wrong sex desist and go on to become homosexual men or lesbians or plain old boring heterosexual. Some....some (!) do not, and for those then further support is needed.
Puberty blockers do not provide a pause and their effects are not completely irreversible. This is a lie. You are effectively stunting a child's growth and development to say nothing for the potential psychological effects of "pausing" their development. Hence the reason the NHS changed their guidance to reflect this in 2020.
"
I've tried so hard to not comment on this thread as I'm fed up having "a wee time out" from admin but every single word you've said here is 100% spot on and I tip my hat to you for saying it as it should be, this woke world we live in now is going to eventually ruin what it is to be a male or female.. Well said MM ??  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Also it's worth noting that just because you identify as something due to a mental health condition, it doesn't mean you get to compete as what you identify as.
I could identify as a 8 year old boy. Doesn't mean I get to compete in my sport in the kids devision.
Still trying to say you’re not transphobic? This comment is a fucking disgrace. "
Before you say this maybe read this article on a youth at Polmont prison identifying as a baby, wanting to be fed blended food and wear nappies. Its not a transphobic comment, people are actually tring to do things like this because people like you prevent the sensible adults from asking sensible questions.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/trans-murderer-prison-identify-baby-26669658 |
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"I thought I would have my say about and that would be the end of my contribution to this but I can't stand back anymore.
1. Being Trans is NOT a mental health condition so please don't say that it is.
2. Trans people are some of the most vulnerable people in society so please remember that when making jokes about issues that effect us.
3. Just because I will never have children naturally doesn't mean that I am not a woman plus there have been 5 (I believe) Trans women that have successfully have utero transplants which will give them the chance to have children via IVF. Also several trans men have had children.
This forum post was started I feel to spark a debate that really is not needed at this time.
I respect people's right to have different views to myself but please remember that just because you have read something online about science saying something doesn't always mean it's correct.
We only have to look at the early 1980's and HIV was described as a "gay disease" by many of the same scientists.
"
1. Yes it is and many in the trans community recognise that it is and there should be no stigma placed on this. Would you deny body dysmorphia is a mental health issue? How about DID? Having worked with and for LGBTQ+ community campaigning for workplace equality as well as working with mental health professionals on this, I am not just talking out my arse to get my words heard.
2. What joke was made? I personally never made a joke.
3. Being a woman and being female are different.
Just because you don't agree or don't like the views expressed, doesn't mean it isn't needed. Notneveryones needs are the same.
Respectfully science is more factual on a broader scale and has wider representation than your anecdotal evidence. That is how science works thankfully.
Which same scientists? The research I've read and the people I have worked with are in their late 20s to early 30s so it's impossible for them to be the same scientists that were carrying out research I'm the 80s.
|
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"Also it's worth noting that just because you identify as something due to a mental health condition, it doesn't mean you get to compete as what you identify as.
I could identify as a 8 year old boy. Doesn't mean I get to compete in my sport in the kids devision.
Still trying to say you’re not transphobic? This comment is a fucking disgrace. "
Please point to the transphobia in this comment? I am struggling to see how comparing one dysphoria to another with similar consequences is transphobic. Is that because its easier to say "transphobic" than it is to educate yourself on mental health disorders?
I find it a disgrace that as a female, you are willing to turn your back on women's rights and the spaces women fought for over generations to create and keep safe for themselves just to appease the current left wing ideology.
Let's be clear, the most "vocal" and apparently educated people on this post regarding this subject have not once denied trans people's rights to choose how they live their lives or even denied their rights as humans in general. So there is no transphobia here whatsoever.
What is being said is that one groups actions should not compromise another groups opportunities. Specifically, this post, the desire to compete in a sport category the odds are stacked in their favour to win with less ability.
You can scream "transphobia" and "disgust" all you like but that doesnt contribute fact to the discussion. You are entitled to opinion but when an opinion has no factual foundation then it is less likely to be valued.
Like a puppy yapping at the heels of a lion. Facts don't care about your opinion. |
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"So i presume that all those who are troubled by the effects of masculinising puberty on trans women, support the calls for puberty blockers?
Nobody "suddenly decides to be a woman" especially given how stigmatized trans women are in every walk if life. They definitely don't do it to increase access sex and romance as the majority of you reject trans lovers. They are more likely to suffer daily harassment and abuse (verbal, physical and sexual) than any other demographic.
And here on a forum where we're all just trying to have some adult fun you lot have to bring up something irrelevant to most of our lives (many professional sports people here?) which has become a stick to beat trans women with.
It feels like the "gay scare" all over again. Conservatives trying every angle with which to get general public to scapegoat and exclude trans people. They finally got you to take the bait on sports.
Personally i think all sports by definition is "unfair" as genetic advantage always plays such a large part in it. Perhaps having weight/height categories for all sports might give more people the opportunity to compete?
And please support trans healthcare. In Glasgow the nhs waiting list is 4 years from referral to have your first appointment with gender clinic to start the process of transition. Can you imagine how heart breaking to have to put your life (and mental health) on hold for that long before you can start to live the way you know you are?
Or for trans kids forced to let their bodies go through adolescence becoming more and more alienated from your own body with each growth in breasts or facial hair? When a puberty blocker could just put that on hold and give you time to think if you want that puberty or are trans?
I feel like this thread is lacking humanity, compassion and empathy for those dealt a difficult hand in life.
I feel like your post is lacking in facts.
I don't particularly care about the effects of hormones on transwomen or transmen. Whilst I think it is a mistake to make yourself a life long medical patient, grown adults can do what they like. When competing in sport though, transwomen have an unfair advantage for all of the reasons mentioned in this thread. How about some compassion and empathy for women & girls who have trained their entire lives only to be ousted from a place on a team, or worse, a medal position by a mediocre athlete who previously identified as a man.
Puberty is not an illness so please stop presenting it as one.. Adolescence is a completely normal, albeit, difficult but necessary developmental stage. Studies have shown that when given time and access to counselling and talking therapies most children who believe they are the wrong sex desist and go on to become homosexual men or lesbians or plain old boring heterosexual. Some....some (!) do not, and for those then further support is needed.
Puberty blockers do not provide a pause and their effects are not completely irreversible. This is a lie. You are effectively stunting a child's growth and development to say nothing for the potential psychological effects of "pausing" their development. Hence the reason the NHS changed their guidance to reflect this in 2020.
I've tried so hard to not comment on this thread as I'm fed up having "a wee time out" from admin but every single word you've said here is 100% spot on and I tip my hat to you for saying it as it should be, this woke world we live in now is going to eventually ruin what it is to be a male or female.. Well said MM ?? "
Sadly I do worry that someone is going to get too upset that their feelings and opinions are not paramount and they will report the thread and shut down any adult discussion on this subject.
You know, the way fascists always do. "You are not saying what I want you to say therefore you must be silenced" |
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"Also it's worth noting that just because you identify as something due to a mental health condition, it doesn't mean you get to compete as what you identify as.
I could identify as a 8 year old boy. Doesn't mean I get to compete in my sport in the kids devision.
Still trying to say you’re not transphobic? This comment is a fucking disgrace.
Before you say this maybe read this article on a youth at Polmont prison identifying as a baby, wanting to be fed blended food and wear nappies. Its not a transphobic comment, people are actually tring to do things like this because people like you prevent the sensible adults from asking sensible questions.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/trans-murderer-prison-identify-baby-26669658"
Transgender is widely accepted and researched, transracial is not and is generally unaccepted but at least it has a designation. There is no commonly used term for someone that identifies as a different age group as yet but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Age identity is still looked at as a joke by most people, like the two posters here that assumed I was joking, just as gender identity was seen as a joke or a freak occurrence back when it wasn't widely spoken about or recognised as a health disorder.
What I do think is a joke, is that people will openly fight for one group but disregard another just because they haven't been conditioned to prioritise that group yet. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Also it's worth noting that just because you identify as something due to a mental health condition, it doesn't mean you get to compete as what you identify as.
I could identify as a 8 year old boy. Doesn't mean I get to compete in my sport in the kids devision.
Still trying to say you’re not transphobic? This comment is a fucking disgrace.
Please point to the transphobia in this comment? I am struggling to see how comparing one dysphoria to another with similar consequences is transphobic. Is that because its easier to say "transphobic" than it is to educate yourself on mental health disorders?
I find it a disgrace that as a female, you are willing to turn your back on women's rights and the spaces women fought for over generations to create and keep safe for themselves just to appease the current left wing ideology.
Let's be clear, the most "vocal" and apparently educated people on this post regarding this subject have not once denied trans people's rights to choose how they live their lives or even denied their rights as humans in general. So there is no transphobia here whatsoever.
What is being said is that one groups actions should not compromise another groups opportunities. Specifically, this post, the desire to compete in a sport category the odds are stacked in their favour to win with less ability.
You can scream "transphobia" and "disgust" all you like but that doesnt contribute fact to the discussion. You are entitled to opinion but when an opinion has no factual foundation then it is less likely to be valued.
Like a puppy yapping at the heels of a lion. Facts don't care about your opinion. "
You’ve not said a single fact. You just like the sound of your own voice. Both science and medicine fully support transgenderism and it is NOT classified as a mental illness.
Just like bigots used to think homosexuality was a mental illness in the past and this was corrected and reclassified, so has the stance on transgenderism.
There are documented cases showing the drop in muscle mass and increased fat gain reducing power output in transgender women receiving HRT to less than that of pro-athletes who were AFAB. If you genuinely wanted to know more, you’d know that, not just make up your own “facts.”
You don’t speak for women, so save your mock outrage. Besides, transgender women are women and if you support women’s rights, that includes them.
I’m not going to bother engaging with you any longer. If nothing else, at least this thread told me who to block. Anyone who isn’t a transphobe reading this should leave a comment so it’s not just an echo chamber for bigots. I’m sorry to anyone transgender who comes across this thread. We’re not all like this, I swear. |
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In my opinion we need 2 separate categories one for trans-men and one for trans-women because they will be either advantaged or disadvantaged in either men or women categories. It is not as simple as saying go with the biological category. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
As this situation is relatively new, research is continuously being carried out (where the researchers are not getting death threats from trans extremists that is, as members of the WHO panel did). Latest research shows that trained and acclimatised athletes who transition lose less than 5% muscle mass three years after fully transitioning. If anyone is qualified to voice a valid opinion on this topic, it's Caitlyn Jenner. As Bruce Jenner, he was one of the US's most successful male athletes. As Caitlyn, she has said "This is a question of fairness," she said. "That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school. It just isn't fair. And we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."
As a result of this statement, she continually receives death threats to her and her family, to the extent she can only go outdoors with a bodyguard. This is the usual level of discourse offered by ignorant trans extremists. |
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"Also it's worth noting that just because you identify as something due to a mental health condition, it doesn't mean you get to compete as what you identify as.
I could identify as a 8 year old boy. Doesn't mean I get to compete in my sport in the kids devision.
Still trying to say you’re not transphobic? This comment is a fucking disgrace.
Please point to the transphobia in this comment? I am struggling to see how comparing one dysphoria to another with similar consequences is transphobic. Is that because its easier to say "transphobic" than it is to educate yourself on mental health disorders?
I find it a disgrace that as a female, you are willing to turn your back on women's rights and the spaces women fought for over generations to create and keep safe for themselves just to appease the current left wing ideology.
Let's be clear, the most "vocal" and apparently educated people on this post regarding this subject have not once denied trans people's rights to choose how they live their lives or even denied their rights as humans in general. So there is no transphobia here whatsoever.
What is being said is that one groups actions should not compromise another groups opportunities. Specifically, this post, the desire to compete in a sport category the odds are stacked in their favour to win with less ability.
You can scream "transphobia" and "disgust" all you like but that doesnt contribute fact to the discussion. You are entitled to opinion but when an opinion has no factual foundation then it is less likely to be valued.
Like a puppy yapping at the heels of a lion. Facts don't care about your opinion.
You’ve not said a single fact. You just like the sound of your own voice. Both science and medicine fully support transgenderism and it is NOT classified as a mental illness.
Just like bigots used to think homosexuality was a mental illness in the past and this was corrected and reclassified, so has the stance on transgenderism.
There are documented cases showing the drop in muscle mass and increased fat gain reducing power output in transgender women receiving HRT to less than that of pro-athletes who were AFAB. If you genuinely wanted to know more, you’d know that, not just make up your own “facts.”
You don’t speak for women, so save your mock outrage. Besides, transgender women are women and if you support women’s rights, that includes them.
I’m not going to bother engaging with you any longer. If nothing else, at least this thread told me who to block. Anyone who isn’t a transphobe reading this should leave a comment so it’s not just an echo chamber for bigots. I’m sorry to anyone transgender who comes across this thread. We’re not all like this, I swear. "
You started the whole "fact" post with a lie. Science and medicine (which of course is science) both categorise transgenderism as dysphoria. Most of the transgender community recognise this too and appreciated the fact that it is a mental disorder because it takes away the argument that they are "chosing" their gender. Classifying it as a mental health disorder does more for the transgender community than denying it is. It affords them medical attention, medication to help them transition, safe gender reasignment surgery and works towards lifting the stigma of transgenderism.
When it wasn't recognised as a mental health disorder and help wasn't given on the NHS, a sex work was prevalent I'm the community so they could get enough money to travel to other countries to get cheap gender reassignment surgery that risked their health and life in general.
Why you or anyone would deny that isnastounding.
Can you copy the links to the studies you are citing please? I'm interested to read these.
You clearly don't speak for women either which is a shame. I clearly stated that "woman" and "female" are not not the same and at no point did I say that trans women are not women. Are you willing to concede that transnwomen are transwomen and not the same as women naturally assigned female at early embryonic development?
I really am shocked at the desire to fight for trans rights at the same time as dropping the "trans" part like it is a shameful tag.
It really is a disgrace |
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"As this situation is relatively new, research is continuously being carried out (where the researchers are not getting death threats from trans extremists that is, as members of the WHO panel did). Latest research shows that trained and acclimatised athletes who transition lose less than 5% muscle mass three years after fully transitioning. If anyone is qualified to voice a valid opinion on this topic, it's Caitlyn Jenner. As Bruce Jenner, he was one of the US's most successful male athletes. As Caitlyn, she has said "This is a question of fairness," she said. "That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school. It just isn't fair. And we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."
As a result of this statement, she continually receives death threats to her and her family, to the extent she can only go outdoors with a bodyguard. This is the usual level of discourse offered by ignorant trans extremists. "
Exactly. The greatest trans athlete of all time. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"As this situation is relatively new, research is continuously being carried out (where the researchers are not getting death threats from trans extremists that is, as members of the WHO panel did). Latest research shows that trained and acclimatised athletes who transition lose less than 5% muscle mass three years after fully transitioning. If anyone is qualified to voice a valid opinion on this topic, it's Caitlyn Jenner. As Bruce Jenner, he was one of the US's most successful male athletes. As Caitlyn, she has said "This is a question of fairness," she said. "That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school. It just isn't fair. And we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."
As a result of this statement, she continually receives death threats to her and her family, to the extent she can only go outdoors with a bodyguard. This is the usual level of discourse offered by ignorant trans extremists.
Exactly. The greatest trans athlete of all time. "
You can't say that as Bruce Jenner was never a trans athlete while he was in athletics though. He did not become a trans woman until 2015 x |
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Transgenderism or Gender diversity is NOT I repeat NOT a mental health issues as per the below directly from The 11th edition of the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD-11)
ICD-11 has redefined gender identity-related health, replacing diagnostic categories like ICD-10’s “transsexualism” and “gender identity disorder of children” with “gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood” and “gender incongruence of childhood”, respectively. Gender incongruence has thus broadly been moved out of the “Mental and behavioural disorders” chapter and into the new “Conditions related to sexual health” chapter. This reflects evidence that trans-related and gender diverse identities are not conditions of mental ill health, and classifying them as such can cause enormous stigma.
Inclusion of gender incongruence in the ICD should ensure transgender people’s access to gender-affirming health care, as well as adequate health insurance coverage for such services. Recognition in the ICD also acknowledges the links between gender identity, sexual behaviour, exposure to violence and sexually transmitted infections. |
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"
You’ve not said a single fact. You just like the sound of your own voice. Both science and medicine fully support transgenderism and it is NOT classified as a mental illness.
Just like bigots used to think homosexuality was a mental illness in the past and this was corrected and reclassified, so has the stance on transgenderism.
There are documented cases showing the drop in muscle mass and increased fat gain reducing power output in transgender women receiving HRT to less than that of pro-athletes who were AFAB. If you genuinely wanted to know more, you’d know that, not just make up your own “facts.”
You don’t speak for women, so save your mock outrage. Besides, transgender women are women and if you support women’s rights, that includes them.
I’m not going to bother engaging with you any longer. If nothing else, at least this thread told me who to block. Anyone who isn’t a transphobe reading this should leave a comment so it’s not just an echo chamber for bigots. I’m sorry to anyone transgender who comes across this thread. We’re not all like this, I swear. "
This.
Well said, I have read this thread and I'm surprised mods haven't closed it. The information is out there for those that care to find it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
You’ve not said a single fact. You just like the sound of your own voice. Both science and medicine fully support transgenderism and it is NOT classified as a mental illness.
Just like bigots used to think homosexuality was a mental illness in the past and this was corrected and reclassified, so has the stance on transgenderism.
There are documented cases showing the drop in muscle mass and increased fat gain reducing power output in transgender women receiving HRT to less than that of pro-athletes who were AFAB. If you genuinely wanted to know more, you’d know that, not just make up your own “facts.”
You don’t speak for women, so save your mock outrage. Besides, transgender women are women and if you support women’s rights, that includes them.
I’m not going to bother engaging with you any longer. If nothing else, at least this thread told me who to block. Anyone who isn’t a transphobe reading this should leave a comment so it’s not just an echo chamber for bigots. I’m sorry to anyone transgender who comes across this thread. We’re not all like this, I swear.
This.
Well said, I have read this thread and I'm surprised mods haven't closed it. The information is out there for those that care to find it. "
Wanting a forum thread to be shut down simply because you don't like or agree with the posts that don't fit your agenda is little more than the 21st century equivalent of book burning. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Also it's worth noting that just because you identify as something due to a mental health condition, it doesn't mean you get to compete as what you identify as.
I could identify as a 8 year old boy. Doesn't mean I get to compete in my sport in the kids devision.
Still trying to say you’re not transphobic? This comment is a fucking disgrace.
Before you say this maybe read this article on a youth at Polmont prison identifying as a baby, wanting to be fed blended food and wear nappies. Its not a transphobic comment, people are actually tring to do things like this because people like you prevent the sensible adults from asking sensible questions.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/trans-murderer-prison-identify-baby-26669658"
|
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"As this situation is relatively new, research is continuously being carried out (where the researchers are not getting death threats from trans extremists that is, as members of the WHO panel did). Latest research shows that trained and acclimatised athletes who transition lose less than 5% muscle mass three years after fully transitioning. If anyone is qualified to voice a valid opinion on this topic, it's Caitlyn Jenner. As Bruce Jenner, he was one of the US's most successful male athletes. As Caitlyn, she has said "This is a question of fairness," she said. "That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school. It just isn't fair. And we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."
As a result of this statement, she continually receives death threats to her and her family, to the extent she can only go outdoors with a bodyguard. This is the usual level of discourse offered by ignorant trans extremists.
Exactly. The greatest trans athlete of all time.
You can't say that as Bruce Jenner was never a trans athlete while he was in athletics though. He did not become a trans woman until 2015 x"
Is transgenderism something that you are born with or something you do chemically? Of it is something you are born with, which I think it is, then he was always transgender. If it something you do medically, then it is a choice which I think it isn't.
So if you are not transgender before you start the process of transition, what are you before that? What causes you to believe that you have been assigned the wrong gender at the embryonic phase of development? Would that be dysphoria? Like being dysphoric about your gender? Gender dysphoria perhaps? Like your brain tells you one thing that your physical body contradicts? Sounds like a mental health condition.
For those who discredit the fact it is a mental health disorder. |
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"
You’ve not said a single fact. You just like the sound of your own voice. Both science and medicine fully support transgenderism and it is NOT classified as a mental illness.
Just like bigots used to think homosexuality was a mental illness in the past and this was corrected and reclassified, so has the stance on transgenderism.
There are documented cases showing the drop in muscle mass and increased fat gain reducing power output in transgender women receiving HRT to less than that of pro-athletes who were AFAB. If you genuinely wanted to know more, you’d know that, not just make up your own “facts.”
You don’t speak for women, so save your mock outrage. Besides, transgender women are women and if you support women’s rights, that includes them.
I’m not going to bother engaging with you any longer. If nothing else, at least this thread told me who to block. Anyone who isn’t a transphobe reading this should leave a comment so it’s not just an echo chamber for bigots. I’m sorry to anyone transgender who comes across this thread. We’re not all like this, I swear.
This.
Well said, I have read this thread and I'm surprised mods haven't closed it. The information is out there for those that care to find it. "
Why would you want mods to close this thread to stop a debate? There had been no insult or aggression towards anyone. Everyone here is having a discussion with differing opinions like adults. Why would you want that to be shut down? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"
You’ve not said a single fact. You just like the sound of your own voice. Both science and medicine fully support transgenderism and it is NOT classified as a mental illness.
Just like bigots used to think homosexuality was a mental illness in the past and this was corrected and reclassified, so has the stance on transgenderism.
There are documented cases showing the drop in muscle mass and increased fat gain reducing power output in transgender women receiving HRT to less than that of pro-athletes who were AFAB. If you genuinely wanted to know more, you’d know that, not just make up your own “facts.”
You don’t speak for women, so save your mock outrage. Besides, transgender women are women and if you support women’s rights, that includes them.
I’m not going to bother engaging with you any longer. If nothing else, at least this thread told me who to block. Anyone who isn’t a transphobe reading this should leave a comment so it’s not just an echo chamber for bigots. I’m sorry to anyone transgender who comes across this thread. We’re not all like this, I swear.
This.
Well said, I have read this thread and I'm surprised mods haven't closed it. The information is out there for those that care to find it. "
Nice try
They must be transphobic too then, or maybe there just not silly enough to fall for the poor me attitude of 1 or 2 outraged participants to a conversation that everyone is taking part in. |
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"Transgenderism or Gender diversity is NOT I repeat NOT a mental health issues as per the below directly from The 11th edition of the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD-11)
ICD-11 has redefined gender identity-related health, replacing diagnostic categories like ICD-10’s “transsexualism” and “gender identity disorder of children” with “gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood” and “gender incongruence of childhood”, respectively. Gender incongruence has thus broadly been moved out of the “Mental and behavioural disorders” chapter and into the new “Conditions related to sexual health” chapter. This reflects evidence that trans-related and gender diverse identities are not conditions of mental ill health, and classifying them as such can cause enormous stigma.
Inclusion of gender incongruence in the ICD should ensure transgender people’s access to gender-affirming health care, as well as adequate health insurance coverage for such services. Recognition in the ICD also acknowledges the links between gender identity, sexual behaviour, exposure to violence and sexually transmitted infections."
If we just select sections of documents that support our opinion, then we are all correct. However, I am assuming you know the reason behind the reason for the reclassification in the ICD and why it shifted under the guidance of WHO.
We can continue to debate the semantics of condition vs disorder vs illness if you wish but that was not the original purpose. So can I ask, what are your opinions on trans athletes competing in sport? |
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Such a bigoted view exactly what people said about being LGBTQ in the 80's.
I didn't wake up one day and say I fancy being a woman, I have always been one but as you say I was born with the wrong gentiles.
Society tells us that if you have a penis that you are a man or vice versa.
However what most studies have found in recent years is that trans people brains are closer to there chosen gender rather than there one assigned at birth.
Hence why the WHO have reclassified being transgender as not mental health condition.
I do agree with you that some trans people do suffer from poor mental health but that's not from being Trans it's from society treatment of us being marginalised and discriminated against.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Bigot
Terf
Transphobe
Hateful cunt.
I've been called all of the above across various platforms when I have said that transwomen are not women.
They are transwomen.
Any documentation you have stating otherwise is a legal fiction.
The name calling means nothing to me. Cause one thing I'll never be called in relation to this issue is a fucking liar.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"As this situation is relatively new, research is continuously being carried out (where the researchers are not getting death threats from trans extremists that is, as members of the WHO panel did). Latest research shows that trained and acclimatised athletes who transition lose less than 5% muscle mass three years after fully transitioning. If anyone is qualified to voice a valid opinion on this topic, it's Caitlyn Jenner. As Bruce Jenner, he was one of the US's most successful male athletes. As Caitlyn, she has said "This is a question of fairness," she said. "That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school. It just isn't fair. And we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."
As a result of this statement, she continually receives death threats to her and her family, to the extent she can only go outdoors with a bodyguard. This is the usual level of discourse offered by ignorant trans extremists.
Exactly. The greatest trans athlete of all time.
You can't say that as Bruce Jenner was never a trans athlete while he was in athletics though. He did not become a trans woman until 2015 x
Is transgenderism something that you are born with or something you do chemically? Of it is something you are born with, which I think it is, then he was always transgender. If it something you do medically, then it is a choice which I think it isn't.
So if you are not transgender before you start the process of transition, what are you before that? What causes you to believe that you have been assigned the wrong gender at the embryonic phase of development? Would that be dysphoria? Like being dysphoric about your gender? Gender dysphoria perhaps? Like your brain tells you one thing that your physical body contradicts? Sounds like a mental health condition.
For those who discredit the fact it is a mental health disorder. "
We cannot dispute the fact that he was a man and lived as man for many years until he decided to transition from man to woman. For anyone who doesn't know, he had the sex reassignment operation in 2017. I did follow his story becoming Caitlin. I don't really care about what anyone thinks of my opinion but I stand by them and my beliefs on this subject x |
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"Such a bigoted view exactly what people said about being LGBTQ in the 80's.
I didn't wake up one day and say I fancy being a woman, I have always been one but as you say I was born with the wrong gentiles.
Society tells us that if you have a penis that you are a man or vice versa.
However what most studies have found in recent years is that trans people brains are closer to there chosen gender rather than there one assigned at birth.
Hence why the WHO have reclassified being transgender as not mental health condition.
I do agree with you that some trans people do suffer from poor mental health but that's not from being Trans it's from society treatment of us being marginalised and discriminated against.
"
I'm confused. You said it was a bigoted view but agreed with most of it.
Again, which studies show these results?
One last question to you since you refuse to stay on topic and give your opinion on trans athletes in sport, why do you keep bringing up the views against gay people in the 80s? You must be aware that gender and sexuality are not the same and to use the LGBTQ+ plus organisation to support your views is a bit counterproductive to your argument since the LGB from back then didn't include the T as they didn't think they were fighting the same fight.
Transgenderism has nothing at all to do with sexual attraction. So it seems you are just lumping protected characteristics together to make your opinion more valid.
Just my opinion of course |
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"Bigot
Terf
Transphobe
Hateful cunt.
I've been called all of the above across various platforms when I have said that transwomen are not women.
They are transwomen.
Any documentation you have stating otherwise is a legal fiction.
The name calling means nothing to me. Cause one thing I'll never be called in relation to this issue is a fucking liar.
"
Trans women are not women. They are transwomen the same as women are not men they are women. All variations of the same species but not the same.
I still find it outrageous that people fight foe the rights of trans people but desperately want to ignore the trans part. |
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"As this situation is relatively new, research is continuously being carried out (where the researchers are not getting death threats from trans extremists that is, as members of the WHO panel did). Latest research shows that trained and acclimatised athletes who transition lose less than 5% muscle mass three years after fully transitioning. If anyone is qualified to voice a valid opinion on this topic, it's Caitlyn Jenner. As Bruce Jenner, he was one of the US's most successful male athletes. As Caitlyn, she has said "This is a question of fairness," she said. "That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school. It just isn't fair. And we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."
As a result of this statement, she continually receives death threats to her and her family, to the extent she can only go outdoors with a bodyguard. This is the usual level of discourse offered by ignorant trans extremists.
Exactly. The greatest trans athlete of all time.
You can't say that as Bruce Jenner was never a trans athlete while he was in athletics though. He did not become a trans woman until 2015 x
Is transgenderism something that you are born with or something you do chemically? Of it is something you are born with, which I think it is, then he was always transgender. If it something you do medically, then it is a choice which I think it isn't.
So if you are not transgender before you start the process of transition, what are you before that? What causes you to believe that you have been assigned the wrong gender at the embryonic phase of development? Would that be dysphoria? Like being dysphoric about your gender? Gender dysphoria perhaps? Like your brain tells you one thing that your physical body contradicts? Sounds like a mental health condition.
For those who discredit the fact it is a mental health disorder.
We cannot dispute the fact that he was a man and lived as man for many years until he decided to transition from man to woman. For anyone who doesn't know, he had the sex reassignment operation in 2017. I did follow his story becoming Caitlin. I don't really care about what anyone thinks of my opinion but I stand by them and my beliefs on this subject x"
I encourage you to do so. Xx |
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"Do people know anything about the requirements for a transgender woman to compete in woman’s sports before they give their tuppence worth? I’m guessing no. Especially when so many pro athletes AFAB have no issues with a transgender women competing against them because they do understand the requirements. Also, why even start this thread? It reeks of transphobia."
so many pro athletes have no issues with it perhaps you are needing to do a little research into the subject and listen to what pro athletes are saying.
As for the requirements they are minimal at best. They do nothing to take into account the larger bone density,muscle mass,form of muscle mass. the differences between a male and female genetically are pretty significant. A guy being on hrt to "change" gender does not change the phisiological advantages he/they/them whatever gain in the previous years spent as a male.
The "female" weightlifting champion competed as a male previous to transition and wasn't even good enough to rank into competitions.
Allowing it is pandering to others vision and not adhering to the rules as they were first given and is unfair on biological woman. |
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"Do people know anything about the requirements for a transgender woman to compete in woman’s sports before they give their tuppence worth? I’m guessing no. Especially when so many pro athletes AFAB have no issues with a transgender women competing against them because they do understand the requirements. Also, why even start this thread? It reeks of transphobia.so many pro athletes have no issues with it perhaps you are needing to do a little research into the subject and listen to what pro athletes are saying.
As for the requirements they are minimal at best. They do nothing to take into account the larger bone density,muscle mass,form of muscle mass. the differences between a male and female genetically are pretty significant. A guy being on hrt to "change" gender does not change the phisiological advantages he/they/them whatever gain in the previous years spent as a male.
The "female" weightlifting champion competed as a male previous to transition and wasn't even good enough to rank into competitions.
Allowing it is pandering to others vision and not adhering to the rules as they were first given and is unfair on biological woman."
I recently saw an MMA fight on Facebook that to be fair should have been stopped in the first round, but the state the trans woman left the other girl in...well all those supporting the participation as equals would have been baying for blood if a man did that to a woman and quite rightly too. Trans need their own classification |
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"Do people know anything about the requirements for a transgender woman to compete in woman’s sports before they give their tuppence worth? I’m guessing no. Especially when so many pro athletes AFAB have no issues with a transgender women competing against them because they do understand the requirements. Also, why even start this thread? It reeks of transphobia.so many pro athletes have no issues with it perhaps you are needing to do a little research into the subject and listen to what pro athletes are saying.
As for the requirements they are minimal at best. They do nothing to take into account the larger bone density,muscle mass,form of muscle mass. the differences between a male and female genetically are pretty significant. A guy being on hrt to "change" gender does not change the phisiological advantages he/they/them whatever gain in the previous years spent as a male.
The "female" weightlifting champion competed as a male previous to transition and wasn't even good enough to rank into competitions.
Allowing it is pandering to others vision and not adhering to the rules as they were first given and is unfair on biological woman.
I recently saw an MMA fight on Facebook that to be fair should have been stopped in the first round, but the state the trans woman left the other girl in...well all those supporting the participation as equals would have been baying for blood if a man did that to a woman and quite rightly too. Trans need their own classification"
Fallon Fox or Alana McLaughlin? Neither of the two have any fighting talent and both have shady behaviour but at least Alana was open about being trans before her fight. Fallon didn't disclose it to her oponents until after her third fight. She didn't give her oponnents the choice whether they wanted to fight a person with male physical advantages. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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In my opinion, If you choose to change gender then you should not be allowed to gain any sporting advantage in any physical sport.
And before you start giving it the old but men and women can be just as strong or fast etc. Just have a look at all the world records for physical events in the olympics and you will see that men have quicker times and longer distances than women roughly speaking Women’s records stand at about 90% of Men’s.  |
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The IOC have a new rule. Where a transfender woman have to past a testosterone test. It needs to be below a certain level to compete.
What that means in long term is for someone far smarter than me to decide if there is or isn't an advantage or not.
Loads and loads if data is being collected at the moment to try implant it if its fair at the next Olympics.
If it turns out on the data that there is no lasting advantage I see not problem with it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The IOC have a new rule. Where a transfender woman have to past a testosterone test. It needs to be below a certain level to compete.
What that means in long term is for someone far smarter than me to decide if there is or isn't an advantage or not.
Loads and loads if data is being collected at the moment to try implant it if its fair at the next Olympics.
If it turns out on the data that there is no lasting advantage I see not problem with it. "
The issue goes way beyond hormones,the reasons for which have been explained by very well informed posters above.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The IOC have a new rule. Where a transfender woman have to past a testosterone test. It needs to be below a certain level to compete.
What that means in long term is for someone far smarter than me to decide if there is or isn't an advantage or not.
Loads and loads if data is being collected at the moment to try implant it if its fair at the next Olympics.
If it turns out on the data that there is no lasting advantage I see not problem with it. "
Is a transfender woman one who has had her bumpers altered? Seriously though, the more research that is done, the less likely it seems that testosterone levels make a significant difference either way. The issue with highly trained sport's people is muscle mass degeneration levels after transitioning. Some studies show that there is little significant difference, only 5%, after the third year of fully transitioning. It should be noted that many of these studies have to take place in secret due to the violent targeting of the laboratories and staff by trans extremists. |
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"The IOC have a new rule. Where a transfender woman have to past a testosterone test. It needs to be below a certain level to compete.
What that means in long term is for someone far smarter than me to decide if there is or isn't an advantage or not.
Loads and loads if data is being collected at the moment to try implant it if its fair at the next Olympics.
If it turns out on the data that there is no lasting advantage I see not problem with it. "
Already been discussed. The testosterone level has to be no more than 5 nanomoles per litre which is still on average 5 times the testosterone levels of female athletes.
Their argument is that at that level, it is significantly lower testosterone levels they had before transitioning. Ignoring the fact that all it means is they have significantly less test than a male athlete but significantly more test than a female athletes. All arguments centre on "they have lost muscle mass and lost strength and lost test so they are not as strong as men". Yes but still significantly stronger than natural females as what they are left with after their losses is still significantly more than natural women.
It is OK for a man to use drugs to drop his testosterone levels to 5 nanomoles and compete as a female but if a female used drugs to increase their testosterone levels to 5 nanomoles and still compete as a woman, they are a drug cheat and they are banned.
Where is the fairness in that?
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It should be said though that, specifically for the Olympics, testosterone levels have now been removed from their inclusion framework and each individual sport is now responsible for deciding what is fair. There is no longer a requirement to have low test levels and their are no longer examinations to prove gender assignment or reassignment because they say this is unnecessarily intrusive.
So without proof of transition and with non need for reduced test levels, effectively Mike Tyson can come out of retirement, identify as a female, compete at the Olympics, kill a woman in a boxing match, go home with a gold medal, shrug his shoulders and say "I didn't break your rules".
This is the death of women's sports.
Unscrupulous men can easily identify as female to compete in Olympic games just to make a mockery of the lack of rules and it will be another women's space snatched from them without anyone calling foul play.
It shows the hierarchy of acceptance. Woman are actually allowing this to happen to them by refusing to defend their space.
There must be an alternative that meets the needs of everyone and not just one minority group without discrimination against any group.
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By *yrdsisWoman
over a year ago
Gleam Street |
"It should be said though that, specifically for the Olympics, testosterone levels have now been removed from their inclusion framework and each individual sport is now responsible for deciding what is fair. There is no longer a requirement to have low test levels and their are no longer examinations to prove gender assignment or reassignment because they say this is unnecessarily intrusive.
So without proof of transition and with non need for reduced test levels, effectively Mike Tyson can come out of retirement, identify as a female, compete at the Olympics, kill a woman in a boxing match, go home with a gold medal, shrug his shoulders and say "I didn't break your rules".
This is the death of women's sports.
Unscrupulous men can easily identify as female to compete in Olympic games just to make a mockery of the lack of rules and it will be another women's space snatched from them without anyone calling foul play.
It shows the hierarchy of acceptance. Woman are actually allowing this to happen to them by refusing to defend their space.
There must be an alternative that meets the needs of everyone and not just one minority group without discrimination against any group.
"
Women are trying to defend their space... and being called transphobic because of it... |
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"It should be said though that, specifically for the Olympics, testosterone levels have now been removed from their inclusion framework and each individual sport is now responsible for deciding what is fair. There is no longer a requirement to have low test levels and their are no longer examinations to prove gender assignment or reassignment because they say this is unnecessarily intrusive.
So without proof of transition and with non need for reduced test levels, effectively Mike Tyson can come out of retirement, identify as a female, compete at the Olympics, kill a woman in a boxing match, go home with a gold medal, shrug his shoulders and say "I didn't break your rules".
This is the death of women's sports.
Unscrupulous men can easily identify as female to compete in Olympic games just to make a mockery of the lack of rules and it will be another women's space snatched from them without anyone calling foul play.
It shows the hierarchy of acceptance. Woman are actually allowing this to happen to them by refusing to defend their space.
There must be an alternative that meets the needs of everyone and not just one minority group without discrimination against any group.
Women are trying to defend their space... and being called transphobic because of it..."
Women are trying to defend their space and being called transphobic by other women as seen previously on this post |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Been debated to death in The Lounge over recent weeks.
Compete in the category which corresponds to your biological sex, not your gender.
Agree!"
Also agree |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Been debated to death in The Lounge over recent weeks.
Compete in the category which corresponds to your biological sex, not your gender.
Agree!
Also agree"
Glad someone else on here agrees with us x |
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It comes down to being able to accept basic Biology. Biology is 100% real. I can identify as an Female Human or a Female Elephant (and no-one can stop me or should stop me) but it doesn't make me either. We are born male or female and that is our sex.
Me "I saw a dog on the way home this afternoon."
Confused person "Nice."
Me "How many legs did the dog have?"
Confused person "Four of course!"
Me "Ah but what if I told you that its tail counts as a leg as well? How many legs does it have now?"
Confused person "Five! It is five! It has five legs!"
Me "No. It still has four legs. Just because you call a tail a leg doesn't make it an actual leg. It is still a tail."
Self identifying gender is an entirely different caulkdron of Octopus and has no place in derailing women's sport or safe spaces.
I'll get my tea now. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It comes down to being able to accept basic Biology. Biology is 100% real. I can identify as an Female Human or a Female Elephant (and no-one can stop me or should stop me) but it doesn't make me either. We are born male or female and that is our sex.
Me "I saw a dog on the way home this afternoon."
Confused person "Nice."
Me "How many legs did the dog have?"
Confused person "Four of course!"
Me "Ah but what if I told you that its tail counts as a leg as well? How many legs does it have now?"
Confused person "Five! It is five! It has five legs!"
Me "No. It still has four legs. Just because you call a tail a leg doesn't make it an actual leg. It is still a tail."
Self identifying gender is an entirely different caulkdron of Octopus and has no place in derailing women's sport or safe spaces.
I'll get my tea now."
Fuck sake...I thought I could rant! |
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"It comes down to being able to accept basic Biology. Biology is 100% real. I can identify as an Female Human or a Female Elephant (and no-one can stop me or should stop me) but it doesn't make me either. We are born male or female and that is our sex.
Me "I saw a dog on the way home this afternoon."
Confused person "Nice."
Me "How many legs did the dog have?"
Confused person "Four of course!"
Me "Ah but what if I told you that its tail counts as a leg as well? How many legs does it have now?"
Confused person "Five! It is five! It has five legs!"
Me "No. It still has four legs. Just because you call a tail a leg doesn't make it an actual leg. It is still a tail."
Self identifying gender is an entirely different caulkdron of Octopus and has no place in derailing women's sport or safe spaces.
I'll get my tea now."
I think I understand what you are saying. Nonsensical but I think I can decipher |
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