FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Scotland can have a referendum
Scotland can have a referendum
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"If they want out, let them go. It'll be even more tricky than Brexit though. That is right, it will be tricky but lets hope they can get it  "
Tricky?
Trying to extract the UK from the EU after 50 years has paralysed governance of the country.
Trying to extract Scotland from the UK after 300+ years will be 10 times worse.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If they want out, let them go. It'll be even more tricky than Brexit though. That is right, it will be tricky but lets hope they can get it
Why do you care?"
I don't agree with 99% of what this guy posts.
But yeah, why do you care?  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"If they want out, let them go. It'll be even more tricky than Brexit though. That is right, it will be tricky but lets hope they can get it
Why do you care?"
Because I stand for democracy and also I know how much scotland want to be in the eu |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If they want out, let them go. It'll be even more tricky than Brexit though. That is right, it will be tricky but lets hope they can get it
Why do you care?Because I stand for democracy and also I know how much scotland want to be in the eu "
Maybe parts of England can break off too and rejoin the EU? |
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We can't have a legally binding independence referendum without the consent of the UK Government.
Given that this is likely to be a Tory Government with a majority, that's not going to happen any time soon.
Clearly, the majority of Scots do not give their assent to being governed by the likes of Johnson, Patel, Raab, Williamson, Gove, Truss, Shapps, Rees-Mogg, etc
Unfortunately, the majority of Scots still think remaining part of the UK is in their best interests.
God alone knows why. |
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"We can't have a legally binding independence referendum without the consent of the UK Government."
Only in terms of the devolution settlement.
If Scotland wishes to dissolve the Union, it can do so. It's just that the SNP has chosen to follow a softer path, playing by Westminster rules.
The problem of that approach is about to be tested, when overwhelming SNP support comes up against the anti-democratic unionists in the Johnson government.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Johnson will do what Cameron eventually did - prevaricate, delay, not rule it out and eventually sit down with Edinburgh and work out a way forward, probably after the 2021 Scottish election. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Scotland has its mandate, if they don’t give scotland its referendum it will be just like what brexit was. We deny scotland its democratic right to leave the union.
Good luck Scotland, |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
The SNP has been very successful at separating a vote for the SNP from a vote for independence, allowing people to vote SNP who won't vote for independence.
One doesn't necessarily follow the other. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Fourth democratic mandate to have a referendum. Unprecedented level of support for a government after 12 years in power. The unelected Tories..(who have not won in Scotland since THE 1950's..have zero democratic legitimacy in Scotland and Scotland will have its referendum.
We are not an effing colony. It is a union. And if we want to disunite, we will! Capiche? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If the Scots want independence they should get that choice, I just hope the next one settles the matter as it is tiring now. I am part Scottish but the animosity gets tedious against England.
I find it curious though how Scotland wants to break away from Westminster only to be swallowed up in a future federal superstate ruled from Brussels. Also the Euro I find curious, why does Sturgeon keep dodging it?
Surely independence means just that, from both Westminster and Brussels.... |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Fourth democratic mandate to have a referendum. Unprecedented level of support for a government after 12 years in power. The unelected Tories..(who have not won in Scotland since THE 1950's..have zero democratic legitimacy in Scotland and Scotland will have its referendum.
We are not an effing colony. It is a union. And if we want to disunite, we will! Capiche?"
Just like Catalonia did recently? |
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Its a muddy situation. It's not good to have a referendum on the issue every time the the wind shifts.
It's clear scotland has no faith in labour or the tories. Does this mean they want independence? well thats up to them, as an outsider I dont think it automatically means so.
However its really up to them. Boris wont have to do jack shit for ages. As far as I know NI can force the issue by forcing a vote but Scotland cant. But NI isn't close to forcing the issue yet. |
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"If Scotland wishes to dissolve the Union, it can do so. It's just that the SNP has chosen to follow a softer path, playing by Westminster rules."
True - but it will have to be done that way. Any other way and there's going to be arguments about legitimacy and following the rules. If we're to stand any chance at all of rejoining the EU, at some future date, we have to have all our ducks in a row here first. |
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"The SNP has been very successful at separating a vote for the SNP from a vote for independence, allowing people to vote SNP who won't vote for independence.
One doesn't necessarily follow the other."
Exactly. Even now, there's still no overwhelming demand for independence. There are still more than enough Scots who believe remaining part of the UK, under this Government, is their best bet.
Incomprehensible as that is. |
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"Exactly. Even now, there's still no overwhelming demand for independence. There are still more than enough Scots who believe remaining part of the UK, under this Government, is their best bet.
Incomprehensible as that is."
I dunno, considering the government has just changed.. How many will be happy to be under a Conservative majority government with no real opposition and scotland having pretty much 0 say because they basically didnt vote conservative.
It should give most unionists an extra pause to think the situation over.
Even NI unionists should pause to think this over. They played hard ball with the tories, they got offered great deal, they got greedy tried stab Boris in the back, and now they are not needed. Do the unionists really want to endure 5 years of their tails between their legs with the tories whacking them in the nose with a rolled up paper?
End of the day, Boris will trigger brexit fully and Scotland will be out of the EU before they get a vote, and then the vote becomes a moot point, as the EU has said that scotland might not get back in on its own. Its probable they would but the EU wont gurantee it, and its a huge risk, and that risk will put people off voting for it.
So scotland wont go anywhere.
NI was promised automatic entry into the EU through Ireland so thats a different situation. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Interesting that nationalism is now the dominant force in every part of the union:
* In Northern Ireland, nationalists hold more seats than unionists
* In Scotland, nationalists win a landslide
* In England & Wales, nationalists wipe the floor.
The United Kingdom is about to be pulled in three very different directions.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"Justice to scotland
Explain... It is easy by respecting their wish to remain in the eu."
It's simpler than that - it's respecting their right to choose their own way forward.
That may be inside the UK or outside of it, inside the EU or out of it.
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Not sure why this is even an issue, the Scots had a vote, and voted to stay.
Wee Nikki Krankie is just trying to avoid the truth about how crap the SNP are at the day-to-day running of the country they are with this.
She tried to blame the govt for the poor NHS etc in Scotland, but...wait, aren't the SNP the govt in charge up there?  |
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"Interesting that nationalism is now the dominant force in every part of the union:
* In Northern Ireland, nationalists hold more seats than unionists
* In Scotland, nationalists win a landslide
* In England & Wales, nationalists wipe the floor.
The United Kingdom is about to be pulled in three very different directions.
"
The nationalist party of Wales is Plaid Cymru, I don't think they "wiped the floor" at all, they barely held on to the 4 seats they already have. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
End of the day, Boris will trigger brexit fully and Scotland will be out of the EU before they get a vote, and then the vote becomes a moot point, as the EU has said that scotland might not get back in on its own. Its probable they would but the EU wont gurantee it, and its a huge risk, and that risk will put people off voting for it.
So scotland wont go anywhere.
NI was promised automatic entry into the EU through Ireland so thats a different situation."
Scotland could always ask for a political union with Ireland |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
The nationalist party of Wales is Plaid Cymru, I don't think they "wiped the floor" at all, they barely held on to the 4 seats they already have."
By any definition, the Conservative Party is now a nationalist party.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
End of the day, Boris will trigger brexit fully and Scotland will be out of the EU before they get a vote, and then the vote becomes a moot point, as the EU has said that scotland might not get back in on its own. Its probable they would but the EU wont gurantee it, and its a huge risk, and that risk will put people off voting for it.
So scotland wont go anywhere.
."
One key difference to keep in mind.
In 2014, the EU deliberately stayed out of the debate, because it was a domestic matter of a member state and the EU policy is to stay above domestic politics.
By the time of the next referendum, the UK will no longer be a member state of the EU, so no longer will there be any such constraint on the EU's position.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If they want out, let them go. It'll be even more tricky than Brexit though. That is right, it will be tricky but lets hope they can get it
Why do you care?"
.
He wants to move there, theres chefs courses galore to be had. |
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"If they want out, let them go. It'll be even more tricky than Brexit though. That is right, it will be tricky but lets hope they can get it
Why do you care?.
He wants to move there, theres chefs courses galore to be had."
Deep fried everything? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If they want out, let them go. It'll be even more tricky than Brexit though. That is right, it will be tricky but lets hope they can get it
Why do you care?.
He wants to move there, theres chefs courses galore to be had.
Deep fried everything?"
.
Yea deep fried Swedish meat balls. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
End of the day, Boris will trigger brexit fully and Scotland will be out of the EU before they get a vote, and then the vote becomes a moot point, as the EU has said that scotland might not get back in on its own. Its probable they would but the EU wont gurantee it, and its a huge risk, and that risk will put people off voting for it.
So scotland wont go anywhere.
NI was promised automatic entry into the EU through Ireland so thats a different situation.
Scotland could always ask for a political union with Ireland "
Yes they could and it could be called the confederation of the gaelic states. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not sure why this is even an issue, the Scots had a vote, and voted to stay.
Wee Nikki Krankie is just trying to avoid the truth about how crap the SNP are at the day-to-day running of the country they are with this.
She tried to blame the govt for the poor NHS etc in Scotland, but...wait, aren't the SNP the govt in charge up there? "
Still performing better than anywhere else in the uk  |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
When he speaks of "one nation" he means England.
."
Yes, I thought that, too.
He is the voice of English nationalism.
I look at it this way.
Let's say the 2016 referendum was 52/48 Remain.
Unfinished business, Farage called it.
Fast forward to the 2019 UK General Election and the Brexit Party wins a landslide on a manifesto promising a 2nd referendum.
That is where we are now.
You might sigh and roll your eyes, if a Remainer, but the mandate to hold one isn't in doubt.
A neverendum.
That's what they called it in Quebec.
They had 3 goes at trying to get over the magic 50 mark.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Let's face it with his majority...Scotland does not exist she can moan as much ad she likes ...Boris holds the cards ...piss off Scotland at your peril ...skint inside 2 years"
I don't see why Boris doesn't give Scotland a choice now to decide their own futures given the situation has drastically changed from the last independence referendum Scotland had. |
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"Good riddance
An added bonus will be greater separation from the poisonous sectarian link with the extreme bampots of Ulster unionism"
I think given the SNPs linking with all things republican in NI then I would say they have started down the sectarian road already |
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"Justice to scotland
Explain... It is easy by respecting their wish to remain in the eu."
Obtaining membership won't be straightforward. Looking forward to seeing Scotland gain independence then applying for EU membership. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I was a remainer in the Scottish referendum. With all thats happened since and especially with the latest election results, id now vote to leave. Ive lost faith in this country as a whole. "
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Let's face it with his majority...Scotland does not exist she can moan as much ad she likes ...Boris holds the cards ...piss off Scotland at your peril ...skint inside 2 years
I don't see why Boris doesn't give Scotland a choice now to decide their own futures given the situation has drastically changed from the last independence referendum Scotland had. "
.
I agree and hopefully this time they'll make the correct decision otherwise this will go on forever  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If they want out, let them go. It'll be even more tricky than Brexit though. That is right, it will be tricky but lets hope they can get it
Why do you care?Because I stand for democracy and also I know how much scotland want to be in the eu "
Sorry Shag, but you've been having trouble accepting the result of the democratic vote that the UK held in 2016 - despite the fact that we've now voted in favour of brexit 4 times now.
How is that standing for democracy? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
The UK is going be pulled in 3 different directions, by 3 different types of nationalism:
* the Brexit kind popular in England and Wales
* the Scottish kind popular in Scotland
* the Irish kind now prevailing in Northern Ireland
February 1, 2020 looks like the day we all cross the rubicon.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"Justice to scotland
Explain... It is easy by respecting their wish to remain in the eu.
Obtaining membership won't be straightforward. Looking forward to seeing Scotland gain independence then applying for EU membership. "
Much will depend on the relationship between the UK and the EU.
Keep in mind the UK no longer will be a member state, so no requirement for the EU to keep its nose out of the debate this time.
If the UK attitude towards EU is bellicose, or even just competitive, the EU may see its interests being served by the disintegration of the UK.
I'm sure Putin will, too. Trump, I don't know. |
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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago
south west , continental |
I jolly hope Scotland get their referendum, I'm in full support of this.
I Still do not understand why the Scots if gaining complete independence will still want to join the EU ?
No longer under Westminster devolved control, Scotland would sign up for full Brussels control. An independent Scotland would come at an EU cost and a banking system controlled via the ECB, plus all the other things the EU would have power over, and demand on an entry criteria application. |
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"Fourth democratic mandate to have a referendum. Unprecedented level of support for a government after 12 years in power. The unelected Tories..(who have not won in Scotland since THE 1950's..have zero democratic legitimacy in Scotland and Scotland will have its referendum.
We are not an effing colony. It is a union. And if we want to disunite, we will! Capiche?"
That is the reality.
Not that you would think so by following the MSM.
We SHALL have our tea. |
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"Not sure why this is even an issue, the Scots had a vote, and voted to stay.
Wee Nikki Krankie is just trying to avoid the truth about how crap the SNP are at the day-to-day running of the country they are with this.
She tried to blame the govt for the poor NHS etc in Scotland, but...wait, aren't the SNP the govt in charge up there? "
You obviously know very little about Scotland. The Scottish NHS outperforms all other parts of the UK. Recent problems with two new hospitals are down to local health boards, with the SG stepping in to ensure they are addressed.
If Scots were unhappy with SNP performance in government, explain last night's results. Actually please don't, as the reply won't make any sense. |
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"Good riddance
An added bonus will be greater separation from the poisonous sectarian link with the extreme bampots of Ulster unionism
I think given the SNPs linking with all things republican in NI then I would say they have started down the sectarian road already"
Complete rubbish. The SNP in government has followed anti-sectarian policies, in contrast to labour and tories who have shamelessly played to that demographic in Central Scotland and ganged up in Holyrood to overturn the football-related anti-sectarian legislation.
Any contact with politicians in the island of Ireland has been to discuss and promote such progressive policies as they have in common. Anathema to the bigoted, religious fundamentalist attitudes of the DUP, of course. |
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"Good riddance
An added bonus will be greater separation from the poisonous sectarian link with the extreme bampots of Ulster unionism
I think given the SNPs linking with all things republican in NI then I would say they have started down the sectarian road already
Complete rubbish. The SNP in government has followed anti-sectarian policies, in contrast to labour and tories who have shamelessly played to that demographic in Central Scotland and ganged up in Holyrood to overturn the football-related anti-sectarian legislation.
Any contact with politicians in the island of Ireland has been to discuss and promote such progressive policies as they have in common. Anathema to the bigoted, religious fundamentalist attitudes of the DUP, of course. "
Anti sectarian!! I’m sure you mean ani PUL. Then again that’s the mantra. A one way street in our country. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Last pole showed 56% want to remain part of UK...up by one percent....she is a one trick pony
Let's put that to the test, in a democratic vote. "
I agree let them have another one then when they lose again maybe they will shut the fuck up. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Good riddance
An added bonus will be greater separation from the poisonous sectarian link with the extreme bampots of Ulster unionism"
Totally agree and when Scotland does become independent I hope the first thing we do is ban Orange and Republican marches - so cavemen arseholes from Belfast who still think it’s 1690 can just fuck off |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Good riddance
An added bonus will be greater separation from the poisonous sectarian link with the extreme bampots of Ulster unionism
I think given the SNPs linking with all things republican in NI then I would say they have started down the sectarian road already"
Eh ????? When have the SNP ever been linked to the Republicans? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its a muddy situation. It's not good to have a referendum on the issue every time the the wind shifts.
It's clear scotland has no faith in labour or the tories. Does this mean they want independence? well thats up to them, as an outsider I dont think it automatically means so.
However its really up to them. Boris wont have to do jack shit for ages. As far as I know NI can force the issue by forcing a vote but Scotland cant. But NI isn't close to forcing the issue yet."
The scots will repeatedly have endless indi refs until independence is achieved |
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"Good riddance
An added bonus will be greater separation from the poisonous sectarian link with the extreme bampots of Ulster unionism
I think given the SNPs linking with all things republican in NI then I would say they have started down the sectarian road already
Eh ????? When have the SNP ever been linked to the Republicans? "
You are seriously extracting the urine. I don’t have the time nor the inclination to go through the whole extensive list of miscreants.I’d suggest a quick trawl through the twitter feeds of Humza, mason, Hosie etc. Or just have a look at who joins them on their endless Indyref2 marches. Nothing to see here, sweep , sweep. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
The scots will repeatedly have endless indi refs until independence is achieved "
A neverendum.
That's what they called it in Quebec.
It had three goes at separating from Canada before calling it a day.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"I jolly hope Scotland get their referendum, I'm in full support of this.
I Still do not understand why the Scots if gaining complete independence will still want to join the EU ?
No longer under Westminster devolved control, Scotland would sign up for full Brussels control. An independent Scotland would come at an EU cost and a banking system controlled via the ECB, plus all the other things the EU would have power over, and demand on an entry criteria application. "
The two unions are very, very different.
In one, the UK, sovereignty is highly centralised.
In the other, the EU, sovereignty remains with the member states.
Did UK need the permission of the EU to hold a referendum on membership? No.
Does Scotland need the permission of the UK to hold a referendum on membership? Yes. |
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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago
south west , continental |
"I jolly hope Scotland get their referendum, I'm in full support of this.
I Still do not understand why the Scots if gaining complete independence will still want to join the EU ?
No longer under Westminster devolved control, Scotland would sign up for full Brussels control. An independent Scotland would come at an EU cost and a banking system controlled via the ECB, plus all the other things the EU would have power over, and demand on an entry criteria application.
The two unions are very, very different.
In one, the UK, sovereignty is highly centralised.
In the other, the EU, sovereignty remains with the member states.
Did UK need the permission of the EU to hold a referendum on membership? No.
Does Scotland need the permission of the UK to hold a referendum on membership? Yes."
I'm not too sure if sovereignty will remain with member States or do you mean countries! The EU Road map for progression has been stated severely times by EU big wigs that sovereignity will be relinquished to further the European Project of closer unity. Mr Verhorstadt is a big supporter of this. Unless anyone has failed to understand all powers will be handed to Brussels. That's the whole point of being in the EU, everything is the same for everyone. Its a Union. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
I'm not too sure if sovereignty will remain with member States or do you mean countries! The EU Road map for progression has been stated severely times by EU big wigs that sovereignity will be relinquished to further the European Project of closer unity. Mr Verhorstadt is a big supporter of this. Unless anyone has failed to understand all powers will be handed to Brussels. That's the whole point of being in the EU, everything is the same for everyone. Its a Union. "
Yes, this is why the EU project has stalled.
For the single currency to work properly and the inherent risks to be removed, member states need to relinquish sovereignty over fiscal policy.
None is willing to do so.
The union of the UK and its single currency works because the member states have relinquished all sovereignty to the centre. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The Scots,will not want independence when we have left eu, can you imagine all the border controls , all the billions that would need to be spent, they would not be able to use pound under eu law , so moving to euro would be a no no ,doesn't make any sense at all,they had a referendum 5 years ago so ahould be every lifetime, won't happen,stand strong |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
This term "once in a generation" is defined in UK law in only one place.
The Belfast Agreement.
The treaty states 7 years must elapse before another referendum can take place on re-unification.
A generation therefore is 7 years.
2014 + 7 years = 2021.
The next Scottish Parliament election is in 2021. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If you think Brexit has been a shit show , can you just imagine what would happen in this instance. I also believe that the SNP is not as strong as the results show...There vote has barely changed, there record is also appalling, they excape the wrath due to the demonisation of the Tories and the piss poor Labour leaders Scotland seems to latch onto.A Labour party led by a Ruth Davidson type would make serious inroads into the SNP vote |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If you think Brexit has been a shit show , can you just imagine what would happen in this instance. I also believe that the SNP is not as strong as the results show...There vote has barely changed, there record is also appalling, they excape the wrath due to the demonisation of the Tories and the piss poor Labour leaders Scotland seems to latch onto.A Labour party led by a Ruth Davidson type would make serious inroads into the SNP vote "
I agree with this, they have been asking for a vote ever since they had the last one, remember they keep asking for it now these elections were really about brexit , i cam understand they won more seats but they on only won 45% of the share,and 55% voted against them, if 60% had voted for snp then yes they would have a bigger case,you can spin it round and say the majority voted to stop in uk |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Ms Sturgeon would be wise to wait until the needle is hitting 60 % in the independence polls.
At the moment, it barely moves from one poll to the next, and is still in the 45-50 % region.
I think there are a few ways of doing this:
a) Improve your own governance of Scotland to give people confidence that it's less of a leap into the unknown
b) Focus your B team at Westminster on maximising the impression in Scotland of Johnson as an arrogant, out-of-touch insulting toff and buffoon.
c) Plug those gaps in the independence manifesto, e.g. currency, EU, pensions etc. If you cannot, be honest about the uncertainty rather than try to pull the wool over people's eyes. |
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"If you think Brexit has been a shit show , can you just imagine what would happen in this instance. I also believe that the SNP is not as strong as the results show...There vote has barely changed, there record is also appalling, they excape the wrath due to the demonisation of the Tories and the piss poor Labour leaders Scotland seems to latch onto.A Labour party led by a Ruth Davidson type would make serious inroads into the SNP vote "
To be fair, bringing in a democratic voting system like PR would make an enough change without doing anything else and you'd get results more reflective of the breakdown of opinions. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
They also have a bit of a Trump/cult type following, where no reasoning or facts count against the Party or leader. No matter that she is a rather charisme free zone |
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"If you think Brexit has been a shit show , can you just imagine what would happen in this instance. I also believe that the SNP is not as strong as the results show...There vote has barely changed, there record is also appalling, they excape the wrath due to the demonisation of the Tories and the piss poor Labour leaders Scotland seems to latch onto.A Labour party led by a Ruth Davidson type would make serious inroads into the SNP vote
I agree with this, they have been asking for a vote ever since they had the last one, remember they keep asking for it now these elections were really about brexit , i cam understand they won more seats but they on only won 45% of the share,and 55% voted against them, if 60% had voted for snp then yes they would have a bigger case,you can spin it round and say the majority voted to stop in uk "
They got a higher % vote than the Conservatives did |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
" these elections were really about brexit , i cam understand they won more seats but they on only won 45% of the share,and 55% voted against them, if 60% had voted for snp then yes they would have a bigger case,you can spin it round and say the majority voted to stop in uk "
In a Scottish context, your impression is wrong.
The Conservative message in Scotland during the GE was "Stop Indyref2".
It wasn't "Get Brexit Done".
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" these elections were really about brexit , i cam understand they won more seats but they on only won 45% of the share,and 55% voted against them, if 60% had voted for snp then yes they would have a bigger case,you can spin it round and say the majority voted to stop in uk
In a Scottish context, your impression is wrong.
The Conservative message in Scotland during the GE was "Stop Indyref2".
It wasn't "Get Brexit Done".
"
All i am saying is that ,if you were a scot and wanted independence would you vote for snp
Answer is simple snp ,so 45% of votes ?? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Not everyone who votes SNP wants independence.
It's important to keep that in mind.
The independence polls consistently are in the range of 45-50% for Yes.
Will the introduction of an unfettered Boris Johnson and impending loss of EU citizenship have a significant impact on the polls?
Dunno.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not everyone who votes SNP wants independence.
It's important to keep that in mind.
The independence polls consistently are in the range of 45-50% for Yes.
Will the introduction of an unfettered Boris Johnson and impending loss of EU citizenship have a significant impact on the polls?
Dunno.
"
It will not happen |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Independence?
Probably not.
Unless there is some serious shock to the system that jolts a lot more people in that direction.
We have seen in the UK how divisive a narrow result is in a binary referendum.
A 51/49 Yes vote would be very traumatic for everyone involved, for years and years afterwards.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not everyone who votes SNP wants independence.
It's important to keep that in mind.
The independence polls consistently are in the range of 45-50% for Yes.
Will the introduction of an unfettered Boris Johnson and impending loss of EU citizenship have a significant impact on the polls?
Dunno.
"
Exactly the same as not everyone who voted Tory the other day wants Brexit but like the SNP and independence, many will point to the amount of votes received and say that shows the support for the ONE aspect that THEY want.
Apparently more people voted in the general election for none Brexit parties / 2nd ref parties, Brexit party votes we're the minority
The only way to gauge public opinion properly on a single issue is a referendum |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not everyone who votes SNP wants independence.
It's important to keep that in mind.
The independence polls consistently are in the range of 45-50% for Yes.
Will the introduction of an unfettered Boris Johnson and impending loss of EU citizenship have a significant impact on the polls?
Dunno.
Exactly the same as not everyone who voted Tory the other day wants Brexit but like the SNP and independence, many will point to the amount of votes received and say that shows the support for the ONE aspect that THEY want.
Apparently more people voted in the general election for none Brexit parties / 2nd ref parties, Brexit party votes we're the minority
The only way to gauge public opinion properly on a single issue is a referendum "
So have a other referendum every time they ask for it and waist time and money, it there is enough evidence from the polls, then yes but at this moment there isnt, and as i said before the polls will change when the cold facts of border controls and leaving pound come into force |
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The poison dwarf uses the independence thing to deflect from the shit job her party have done in Scotland...esp with how much xtra money they get from the English taxes...
Let's do it and shut her gob up once and for all |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not everyone who votes SNP wants independence.
It's important to keep that in mind.
The independence polls consistently are in the range of 45-50% for Yes.
Will the introduction of an unfettered Boris Johnson and impending loss of EU citizenship have a significant impact on the polls?
Dunno.
Exactly the same as not everyone who voted Tory the other day wants Brexit but like the SNP and independence, many will point to the amount of votes received and say that shows the support for the ONE aspect that THEY want.
Apparently more people voted in the general election for none Brexit parties / 2nd ref parties, Brexit party votes we're the minority
The only way to gauge public opinion properly on a single issue is a referendum
So have a other referendum every time they ask for it and waist time and money, it there is enough evidence from the polls, then yes but at this moment there isnt, and as i said before the polls will change when the cold facts of border controls and leaving pound come into force "
I don't think a referendum should ge given whenever one is asked BUT basing one referendum on a set of promises / arguments then 2 years later the entire situation is flipped on it's head and one of the main aspects of voting one way is removed then I can fully understand the need to vote again when the circumstances have changed so much. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I remember Ed Milliband, as Labour leader, going to Scotland during the 2014 referendum and saying he would put tanks on the border if he was PM.
People's jaws just dropped.
And not just in what little remained of the Scottish Labour Party.
|
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It all depends on how the UK performs economically once freed from shackles of the EU. With that Majority Boris has probably 10 years to show we are better off outside the EU. That is easily long enough to be responsible for the ultimate outcome.If we are flying and the EU is sinking there is no chance of an independent Scotland or a United Ireland. Ireland in that situation could be the next to leave the EU and join the UK in a free trade deal if the EU doesnt grant us one in 2020.
If our economy tanks over the next 10 years and the EU flourishes then Scottish independence and a United Ireland is very likely. Therefore people like Sturgeon and Gerry Adams would love us to fail and their own people suffer hardship in order to advance their political agendas.
Id go further and say many extreme Remainers (several million )actually want the country to now fail. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It all depends on how the UK performs economically once freed from shackles of the EU. With that Majority Boris has probably 10 years to show we are better off outside the EU. That is easily long enough to be responsible for the ultimate outcome.If we are flying and the EU is sinking there is no chance of an independent Scotland or a United Ireland. Ireland in that situation could be the next to leave the EU and join the UK in a free trade deal if the EU doesnt grant us one in 2020.
If our economy tanks over the next 10 years and the EU flourishes then Scottish independence and a United Ireland is very likely. Therefore people like Sturgeon and Gerry Adams would love us to fail and their own people suffer hardship in order to advance their political agendas.
Id go further and say many extreme Remainers (several million )actually want the country to now fail. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face ! "
I dont know where you got that piece of nonsense from? Extreme remainers want the country to fail? You might as well say extreme brexiteers dont care if the country fails as long as they leave the EU. Its false and just the kind of wrong headed blaming thats got us where we are today. You won, so take the credit if it goes well and the shame if it doesn’t but do try to get off the pot and move on. |
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"It all depends on how the UK performs economically once freed from shackles of the EU. With that Majority Boris has probably 10 years to show we are better off outside the EU. That is easily long enough to be responsible for the ultimate outcome.If we are flying and the EU is sinking there is no chance of an independent Scotland or a United Ireland. Ireland in that situation could be the next to leave the EU and join the UK in a free trade deal if the EU doesnt grant us one in 2020.
If our economy tanks over the next 10 years and the EU flourishes then Scottish independence and a United Ireland is very likely. Therefore people like Sturgeon and Gerry Adams would love us to fail and their own people suffer hardship in order to advance their political agendas.
Id go further and say many extreme Remainers (several million )actually want the country to now fail. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face !
I dont know where you got that piece of nonsense from? Extreme remainers want the country to fail? You might as well say extreme brexiteers dont care if the country fails as long as they leave the EU. Its false and just the kind of wrong headed blaming thats got us where we are today. You won, so take the credit if it goes well and the shame if it doesn’t but do try to get off the pot and move on. "
It's often the line on here "can't wait for the country to collapse" seems to be the mantra of the remoaner. |
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"The poison dwarf uses the independence thing to deflect from the shit job her party have done in Scotland...esp with how much xtra money they get from the English taxes...
Let's do it and shut her gob up once and for all"
she just wants to be the new Mary Queen of Scott's and we, all know what happened to her. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It all depends on how the UK performs economically once freed from shackles of the EU. With that Majority Boris has probably 10 years to show we are better off outside the EU. That is easily long enough to be responsible for the ultimate outcome.If we are flying and the EU is sinking there is no chance of an independent Scotland or a United Ireland. Ireland in that situation could be the next to leave the EU and join the UK in a free trade deal if the EU doesnt grant us one in 2020.
If our economy tanks over the next 10 years and the EU flourishes then Scottish independence and a United Ireland is very likely. Therefore people like Sturgeon and Gerry Adams would love us to fail and their own people suffer hardship in order to advance their political agendas.
Id go further and say many extreme Remainers (several million )actually want the country to now fail. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face !
I dont know where you got that piece of nonsense from? Extreme remainers want the country to fail? You might as well say extreme brexiteers dont care if the country fails as long as they leave the EU. Its false and just the kind of wrong headed blaming thats got us where we are today. You won, so take the credit if it goes well and the shame if it doesn’t but do try to get off the pot and move on.
It's often the line on here "can't wait for the country to collapse" seems to be the mantra of the remoaner."
Stirring the pot is your forte Clem and I appreciate what you do me old chum  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
".
It's often the line on here "can't wait for the country to collapse" seems to be the mantra of the remoaner."
I've never read that on here once, ever.
What I have seen is remainers pointing out the pitfalls of Brexit and the potential losses it may incur the UK but never "can't wait for the country to collapse" bollocks |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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".
It's often the line on here "can't wait for the country to collapse" seems to be the mantra of the remoaner.
I've never read that on here once, ever.
What I have seen is remainers pointing out the pitfalls of Brexit and the potential losses it may incur the UK but never "can't wait for the country to collapse" bollocks "
"Remoaners" are the people who voted against the current cluster fuck that the country is in. And specifically don't want to wreck the country.
Just a friendly reminder. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Boris said they cant have one but being a democracy they can have one what is your view of it? This gives a clear message to scotland "
We had one in 2014. We voted to stay .Boris will honour the result. We stay and Sturgeon can play the victim card as much as she likes she ain't ruining our country. |
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"You may not have changed your mind but it seems a few other people have. None of us speak for any other than ourselves, in truth."
At least. Scotland and Wales will never get the government it wants whilst tied to Westminster. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Scotland should have a referendum, they didn't vote for the tories or brexit, its only fair. And Northern Ireland should have a referendum on uniting with the South since nationalist mps are the majority now,and they voted to stay in the EU to. I'm sure we will all still get on, and England, can go it's own way, things change in life, nothing lasts forever |
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"Scotland should have a referendum, they didn't vote for the tories or brexit, its only fair. And Northern Ireland should have a referendum on uniting with the South since nationalist mps are the majority now,and they voted to stay in the EU to. I'm sure we will all still get on, and England, can go it's own way, things change in life, nothing lasts forever "
*coughs* |
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"Boris said they cant have one but being a democracy they can have one what is your view of it? This gives a clear message to scotland
We had one in 2014. We voted to stay .Boris will honour the result. We stay and Sturgeon can play the victim card as much as she likes she ain't ruining our country."
If you are a democrat, which you obviously are not, you would be relaxed about an exercise in democracy.
You also appear to have a selective memory. Remember when the poll just before the vote showed support at over 50% and there was massive illegal subversion of the electoral and constitutional rules by the last-minute vow of devo-max, the promise that Scotland's place within the EU was secure...../and then they rolled out the impartial (hah!!!) monarch to indicate her preference?
It's particularly galling that a majority of Scots voted for independence, but a majority of the English living here swung it for the status quo. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Boris said they cant have one but being a democracy they can have one what is your view of it? This gives a clear message to scotland
We had one in 2014. We voted to stay .Boris will honour the result. We stay and Sturgeon can play the victim card as much as she likes she ain't ruining our country.
If you are a democrat, which you obviously are not, you would be relaxed about an exercise in democracy.
You also appear to have a selective memory. Remember when the poll just before the vote showed support at over 50% and there was massive illegal subversion of the electoral and constitutional rules by the last-minute vow of devo-max, the promise that Scotland's place within the EU was secure...../and then they rolled out the impartial (hah!!!) monarch to indicate her preference?
It's particularly galling that a majority of Scots voted for independence, but a majority of the English living here swung it for the status quo."
That is right and
in the eu membership referendum held on 23 June 2016, all thirty two council areas in scotland voted by a majority for the uk to remain a member of the eu. 62% of scottish voters voted to remain a member of the eu, with 38% voting to leave, that sends a clear message that yes the scotts wants to remain in the eu
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Everyone on planet Earth ( except the one-issue SNP ) can do a thing called adding up. If anyone in them SNP could “add” they would realise they couldn’t last 5 minutes without the Westminister comfort blanket. It’s not even close |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
The UK Government runs a current account deficit about 3% of GDP and Javid plans to increase this to about 4%.
The Scottish Government runs a current account deficit of 6% of GDP.
Neither is about to go bankrupt.
|
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"I'm not Scottish and dont live in Scotland.
It's up to them. I don't know why anyone else really has a strong opinion either way."
I’m woth you on this if yr not Scottish it’s nothing to do with you |
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".
It's often the line on here "can't wait for the country to collapse" seems to be the mantra of the remoaner.
I've never read that on here once, ever.
What I have seen is remainers pointing out the pitfalls of Brexit and the potential losses it may incur the UK but never "can't wait for the country to collapse" bollocks
"Remoaners" are the people who voted against the current cluster fuck that the country is in. And specifically don't want to wreck the country.
Just a friendly reminder. "
get real will you. Its wearing thin nowx |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
".
It's often the line on here "can't wait for the country to collapse" seems to be the mantra of the remoaner.
I've never read that on here once, ever.
What I have seen is remainers pointing out the pitfalls of Brexit and the potential losses it may incur the UK but never "can't wait for the country to collapse" bollocks
"Remoaners" are the people who voted against the current cluster fuck that the country is in. And specifically don't want to wreck the country.
Just a friendly reminder. get real will you. Its wearing thin nowx"
Why's that wearing thin?
Leavers blaming remainers for Brexit being a clusterfuck is wearing thin. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
".
It's often the line on here "can't wait for the country to collapse" seems to be the mantra of the remoaner.
I've never read that on here once, ever.
What I have seen is remainers pointing out the pitfalls of Brexit and the potential losses it may incur the UK but never "can't wait for the country to collapse" bollocks
"Remoaners" are the people who voted against the current cluster fuck that the country is in. And specifically don't want to wreck the country.
Just a friendly reminder. get real will you. Its wearing thin nowx
Why's that wearing thin?
Leavers blaming remainers for Brexit being a clusterfuck is wearing thin."
.
You know this has to be an absolute cluster fuck now, not a mere recession, not a slight down turn, not even a mild depression, if we don't see nuclear war, zombies, millions dead and the end of the world then, well you'll be seemed to be proved wrong .
The very fact that the left have to over egg everything is there very downfall but that's really the lefts big problem, they dig the holes only to fall into them themselves
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"If they want out, let them go. It'll be even more tricky than Brexit though. That is right, it will be tricky but lets hope they can get it
Why do you care?Because I stand for democracy and also I know how much scotland want to be in the eu
Sorry Shag, but you've been having trouble accepting the result of the democratic vote that the UK held in 2016 - despite the fact that we've now voted in favour of brexit 4 times now.
How is that standing for democracy?"
I dont, why dont you have a look at the eu membership referendum held on 23 June 2016, where 62% of the scottish voters voted to remain a member of the eu doesnt that tell you what they want? |
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"If they want out, let them go. It'll be even more tricky than Brexit though. That is right, it will be tricky but lets hope they can get it
Why do you care?Because I stand for democracy and also I know how much scotland want to be in the eu
Sorry Shag, but you've been having trouble accepting the result of the democratic vote that the UK held in 2016 - despite the fact that we've now voted in favour of brexit 4 times now.
How is that standing for democracy?I dont, why dont you have a look at the eu membership referendum held on 23 June 2016, where 62% of the scottish voters voted to remain a member of the eu doesnt that tell you what they want?"
Scotland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave the EU.
Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me...unless you are saying that somehow Scotland is a special case...in which instance maybe the SNP should form the govt and not the Tories? |
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I see the FTSE went up by over 70 billion after the election result so far, seems those who's job it is to actually understand the numbers have faith in the UK economy now that we know we are finally going to leave the EU. |
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".
It's often the line on here "can't wait for the country to collapse" seems to be the mantra of the remoaner.
I've never read that on here once, ever.
What I have seen is remainers pointing out the pitfalls of Brexit and the potential losses it may incur the UK but never "can't wait for the country to collapse" bollocks
"Remoaners" are the people who voted against the current cluster fuck that the country is in. And specifically don't want to wreck the country.
Just a friendly reminder. get real will you. Its wearing thin nowx
Why's that wearing thin?
Leavers blaming remainers for Brexit being a clusterfuck is wearing thin."
well the remainers, have done all they can to thwart brexit. The feeling up here is one of anger and frustration at the way some have behaved over it all. Do not look down on anyone who voted leave or think you know better. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
".
It's often the line on here "can't wait for the country to collapse" seems to be the mantra of the remoaner.
I've never read that on here once, ever.
What I have seen is remainers pointing out the pitfalls of Brexit and the potential losses it may incur the UK but never "can't wait for the country to collapse" bollocks
"Remoaners" are the people who voted against the current cluster fuck that the country is in. And specifically don't want to wreck the country.
Just a friendly reminder. get real will you. Its wearing thin nowx
Why's that wearing thin?
Leavers blaming remainers for Brexit being a clusterfuck is wearing thin.well the remainers, have done all they can to thwart brexit. The feeling up here is one of anger and frustration at the way some have behaved over it all. Do not look down on anyone who voted leave or think you know better. "
Few points.
Brexit is still happening, it hasn't been thwarted. Sure the Tories delayed a bit while voting down their own deal. But this is the likes of Boris Johnson, who is a leaver. So I don't know why remainers are impacting this?
I don't understand why there is anger about how people have behaved. Before the referendum, we were told it would take a minimum of five years, and maybe the Tories have dragged it out a bit. But we're still roughly on track, and is playing out as expected.
I don't look down on leavers, but sure it's frustrating. If leavers could provide any proper, actual, fact based, benefits of leaving the EU, then we could talk. But they haven't. So it's frustrating that people voted to ruin the country for a reason which doesn't seem to be explained.
Sure people are pissed off with austerity and all the other bullshit. But that's all set to be exhaserbated by brexit. |
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"I see the FTSE went up by over 70 billion after the election result so far, seems those who's job it is to actually understand the numbers have faith in the UK economy now that we know we are finally going to leave the EU."
Is the FTSE made up of some large, multinational companies with potentially mammoth tax liabilities by any chance? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
Scotland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave the EU.
Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me...unless you are saying that somehow Scotland is a special case...in which instance maybe the SNP should form the govt and not the Tories?"
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave.
Northern Ireland is being allowed effectively to stay in the single market but the rest of the UK is being taken out.
What's good for the goose . . . |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"well the remainers, have done all they can to thwart brexit. The feeling up here is one of anger and frustration at the way some have behaved over it all. Do not look down on anyone who voted leave or think you know better. "
Leavers in Parliament have done exactly the same, voted against the very thing they wanted |
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"
Scotland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave the EU.
Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me...unless you are saying that somehow Scotland is a special case...in which instance maybe the SNP should form the govt and not the Tories?
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave.
Northern Ireland is being allowed effectively to stay in the single market but the rest of the UK is being taken out.
What's good for the goose . . ."
Because NI has a land border with an EU country and Scotland does not. I thought everyone knew that ?. No? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Just wait until rationing comes back in a few years. Then we'll really see some miserable people. "
I don’t think we will get any rationing but we might see some price rises |
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"Just wait until rationing comes back in a few years. Then we'll really see some miserable people.
I don’t think we will get any rationing but we might see some price rises "
The left will be pushing rationing to save us from climate change. The wheels are already turning. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Scotland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave the EU.
Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me...unless you are saying that somehow Scotland is a special case...in which instance maybe the SNP should form the govt and not the Tories?
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave.
Northern Ireland is being allowed effectively to stay in the single market but the rest of the UK is being taken out.
What's good for the goose . . .
Because NI has a land border with an EU country and Scotland does not. I thought everyone knew that ?. No?"
But imagine how great it would be if the rest of the UK could stay within the customs union with NI, and keep all current trade deals instead of having to negotiate new shittier ones, and if we retained all the rights we have and the freedom to travel and work in Europe. Wouldn't that be good! |
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"
Scotland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave the EU.
Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me...unless you are saying that somehow Scotland is a special case...in which instance maybe the SNP should form the govt and not the Tories?
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave.
Northern Ireland is being allowed effectively to stay in the single market but the rest of the UK is being taken out.
What's good for the goose . . .
Because NI has a land border with an EU country and Scotland does not. I thought everyone knew that ?. No?
But imagine how great it would be if the rest of the UK could stay within the customs union with NI, and keep all current trade deals instead of having to negotiate new shittier ones, and if we retained all the rights we have and the freedom to travel and work in Europe. Wouldn't that be good! "
God yeah- be great.... like b4 the referendum and forthcoming jan 2020 and early 2021 and beyond. No wait..... we have 2 general elections and a referendum since then . Democracy’s a bitch aint it. |
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Scotland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave the EU.
Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me...unless you are saying that somehow Scotland is a special case...in which instance maybe the SNP should form the govt and not the Tories?
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave.
Northern Ireland is being allowed effectively to stay in the single market but the rest of the UK is being taken out.
What's good for the goose . . .
Because NI has a land border with an EU country and Scotland does not. I thought everyone knew that ?. No?
But imagine how great it would be if the rest of the UK could stay within the customs union with NI, and keep all current trade deals instead of having to negotiate new shittier ones, and if we retained all the rights we have and the freedom to travel and work in Europe. Wouldn't that be good! "
wouldnt that be staying in the eu lol |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Scotland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave the EU.
Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me...unless you are saying that somehow Scotland is a special case...in which instance maybe the SNP should form the govt and not the Tories?
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, the UK voted to leave.
Northern Ireland is being allowed effectively to stay in the single market but the rest of the UK is being taken out.
What's good for the goose . . .
Because NI has a land border with an EU country and Scotland does not. I thought everyone knew that ?. No?
But imagine how great it would be if the rest of the UK could stay within the customs union with NI, and keep all current trade deals instead of having to negotiate new shittier ones, and if we retained all the rights we have and the freedom to travel and work in Europe. Wouldn't that be good! wouldnt that be staying in the eu lol"
Mate! That's a great idea. I'm with you on that.
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