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State ownership of railway operating companies
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By *ara J OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
It's almost complete already.
c2c: Italian state
Chiltern: German state
Caledonian sleeper: PRIVATE
CrossCountry: German state
East Midlands: Dutch state
Eurostar: French state
Gatwick Express: French state
Grand Central: German state
Great Northern: French state
GWR: PRIVATE
Greater Anglia: Dutch state
Heathrow Express: PRIVATE
Hull Trains: PRIVATE
LNER: British state
London Northwestern Railway: Dutch state
London Overground: German state
London Underground: British state
Merseyrail: Dutch state
Northern: German state
Northern Ireland Railways: British state
Scotrail: Dutch state
South Western Railway: Hong Kong state
Southeastern: French state
Southern: French state
Stansted Express: Dutch state
TfL rail: Hong Kong state
Thameslink: French state
TransPennine Express: PRIVATE
Transport for Wales: French state
West Coast: Italian state
West Midlands Railway: Dutch state
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"It's almost complete already.
c2c: Italian state
Chiltern: German state
Caledonian sleeper: PRIVATE
CrossCountry: German state
East Midlands: Dutch state
Eurostar: French state
Gatwick Express: French state
Grand Central: German state
Great Northern: French state
GWR: PRIVATE
Greater Anglia: Dutch state
Heathrow Express: PRIVATE
Hull Trains: PRIVATE
LNER: British state
London Northwestern Railway: Dutch state
London Overground: German state
London Underground: British state
Merseyrail: Dutch state
Northern: German state
Northern Ireland Railways: British state
Scotrail: Dutch state
South Western Railway: Hong Kong state
Southeastern: French state
Southern: French state
Stansted Express: Dutch state
TfL rail: Hong Kong state
Thameslink: French state
TransPennine Express: PRIVATE
Transport for Wales: French state
West Coast: Italian state
West Midlands Railway: Dutch state
"
That's some proper research. Just out of interest, do France, Germany, Italy, etc have state owned rail networks? Or do they just fuck ours up for a laugh?  |
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"I believe the profits earned here are used to offset the cost of fares back home.
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Talk about thinking it through. I wonder what it's like to live in a country where your government acts in everyone's interests; not just the shareholders'? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I believe the profits earned here are used to offset the cost of fares back home.
Talk about thinking it through. I wonder what it's like to live in a country where your government acts in everyone's interests; not just the shareholders'?"
I doubt we'll find out any time soon.  |
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"I believe the profits earned here are used to offset the cost of fares back home.
Talk about thinking it through. I wonder what it's like to live in a country where your government acts in everyone's interests; not just the shareholders'?
"
That's the point isn't it. These governments are the major shareholders in their own railways (and also utilities).
The profits roll back into the treasury or the companies themselves.
The bleating about the costs of Labour's nationalisation programs miss the point that, once in place, all the profits are ours (the British people) to improve the services, or use elsewhere... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It's called capitalism. BP own stuff all over the world and their profits come back here, that is why when the pound is tanking they make bigger profits.
What you ask for is socialism where the state owns the asset. Trouble is governments are not terribly good at running railways and you end up with very bad cheese sandwiches LOL.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's called capitalism. BP own stuff all over the world and their profits come back here, that is why when the pound is tanking they make bigger profits.
What you ask for is socialism where the state owns the asset. Trouble is governments are not terribly good at running railways and you end up with very bad cheese sandwiches LOL.
"
Private companies seem v bad at running railways, though. They only care about their profits. |
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"It's called capitalism. BP own stuff all over the world and their profits come back here, that is why when the pound is tanking they make bigger profits.
What you ask for is socialism where the state owns the asset. Trouble is governments are not terribly good at running railways and you end up with very bad cheese sandwiches LOL.
"
The fact the OP's first post details that our railways are already run by governments, seems to make your statement redundant.
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By *ara J OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
When you look at the structure, you begin to realise that the railways have never been privatised in any true sense.
There is no daily competition between companies on any route.
Instead, the Government parcels up a bunch of routes, sets the service level for a period of time and simply invites private interests to take over the management of the operating company.
Presumably in the belief the private sector is better at running companies than the state sector.
Except most of the railway companies are now in the hands of the state sector.
Just not the British state.
Ideology gone made - state ownership is fine, so long as it is not British state ownership
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"When you look at the structure, you begin to realise that the railways have never been privatised in any true sense.
There is no daily competition between companies on any route.
Instead, the Government parcels up a bunch of routes, sets the service level for a period of time and simply invites private interests to take over the management of the operating company.
Presumably in the belief the private sector is better at running companies than the state sector.
Except most of the railway companies are now in the hands of the state sector.
Just not the British state.
Ideology gone made - state ownership is fine, so long as it is not British state ownership
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You can get to King's Cross by LNER, Grand Central, Hull Trains, and Great Northern, so to say there is no competition is a little false.
Incidentally DB, the German rail operator, is technically a private company. Its just that the Federal Goverment own all the shares. |
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By *ara J OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Yes, that's what I understand by state ownership.
EDF Energy is state-owned, for example.
Many of our banks were/are state-owned.
Government acquisition of shares.
It's the same with these railway companies.
The shares - and dividends - belong to the state.
It exposes the myth that state ownership of business is incompatible with being in the single market.
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By *ara J OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Each of those companies you mention operates different routes to each other.
If I want to travel from Bristol to London, only GWR will transport me.
If I want to travel from Bristol to Birmingham, only Cross Country will transport me.
If I want to travel from Birmingham direct to Glasgow, only Virgin will transport me.
If I want to travel from London to Aberdeen, only East Coast will transport me.
Point to point, there is no competition - only services that have been contracted out to private-sector management.
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Each of those companies you mention operates different routes to each other.
If I want to travel from Bristol to London, only GWR will transport me.
If I want to travel from Bristol to Birmingham, only Cross Country will transport me.
If I want to travel from Birmingham direct to Glasgow, only Virgin will transport me.
If I want to travel from London to Aberdeen, only East Coast will transport me.
Point to point, there is no competition - only services that have been contracted out to private-sector management.
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So you'd prefer a joined up railway? Like British Rail from 1948 until 1997.
The problem with that scenario, is there could never be any competition, although if we stop in the EU, private operators would demand access to the network.
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By *ara J OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
This is what it looks like in real life.
I'm in Inverness this week.
To travel from Inverness to Bristol:
- single fare on Easyjet (inc. hold luggage) £48
- single fare on the train (Scotrail, Virgin & Cross Country) £252
The train is four times more expensive than an aeroplane and ten times slower.
I'm taking the plane.
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By *ara J OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
So you'd prefer a joined up railway? Like British Rail from 1948 until 1997.
The problem with that scenario, is there could never be any competition, although if we stop in the EU, private operators would demand access to the network.
"
I'm not sure what the best operating model is, but this hybrid public/private arrangement is working only in the interests of share-holders, not the country or the customers.
I'm not wedded to any particular ideology, but I do object to the Conservative ideology and its determination always to privatise the profit and nationalise the risk.
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"
So you'd prefer a joined up railway? Like British Rail from 1948 until 1997.
The problem with that scenario, is there could never be any competition, although if we stop in the EU, private operators would demand access to the network.
I'm not sure what the best operating model is, but this hybrid public/private arrangement is working only in the interests of share-holders, not the country or the customers.
I'm not wedded to any particular ideology, but I do object to the Conservative ideology and its determination always to privatise the profit and nationalise the risk.
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It's not like the privatisation removes the cost from government either. They are pumping more in at present than when it was BR.
Not one bit of it makes sense! |
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By *ara J OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
We need to rethink what railways are about and what the strategic national interest is in them.
The answer to that will yield the most suitable operating model.
At the moment, it appears the over-riding objective of our railways is deliver "share-holder value".
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This is what it looks like in real life.
I'm in Inverness this week.
To travel from Inverness to Bristol:
- single fare on Easyjet (inc. hold luggage) £48
- single fare on the train (Scotrail, Virgin & Cross Country) £252
The train is four times more expensive than an aeroplane and ten times slower.
I'm taking the plane.
"
To slightly counter that. I travelled from Lichfield TV station and then U/G to reach a destination near Pinner at peak time 7.10 in the morning on virgin a couple of weeks ago and it was £ 74.10 including the U/G day pass.
I was there in a shade over 2 hours. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"I'm off to Playa Del Ingles this weekend with my fella.
Return flights, Bristol to Las Palmas, inc. hold luggage, £115 each.
Return rail fare Bristol to London - £204 each.
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Do you not book ahead, which is always the cheapest way of doing it?
Two of us went from Paddington to Bristol one way on Saturday. £27.70 total! |
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"I'm off to Playa Del Ingles this weekend with my fella.
Return flights, Bristol to Las Palmas, inc. hold luggage, £115 each.
Return rail fare Bristol to London - £204 each.
Do you not book ahead, which is always the cheapest way of doing it?
Two of us went from Paddington to Bristol one way on Saturday. £27.70 total!
"
Also booking multiple tickets.
If you buy a ticket from (for example) Bristol to Swindon, then another from there to London, they ofter work out much cheaper.
My friend has done Leeds to Harwich for 21 quid in this way. |
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"I'm off to Playa Del Ingles this weekend with my fella.
Return flights, Bristol to Las Palmas, inc. hold luggage, £115 each.
Return rail fare Bristol to London - £204 each. "
This comes down to when you book the tickets. Even with a week's notice, there's no way the return fare is £204 each.
Leave Bristol Saturday morning, return Sunday night - £42 each. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"I've done that trip numerous times. The fare to London and back is £204.
Unless you go on specified trains at off-peak times to suit the train operating company.
"
The "walk up" fare for that journey is £205ish.
That includes going on the most expensive trains back from Paddington, which is £144!
As illustrated, there are a lot of ways of doing it far far cheaper. |
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"I've done that trip numerous times. The fare to London and back is £204.
Unless you go on specified trains at off-peak times to suit the train operating company.
The "walk up" fare for that journey is £205ish.
That includes going on the most expensive trains back from Paddington, which is £144!
As illustrated, there are a lot of ways of doing it far far cheaper. "
But often that's what you have to do.
I work in a sales role. Quite often I'll get a meeting in my calender for the next day, at 09:30 in the City. A full fare return is all I can do.
Obviously it's expensed, so not out of my pocket. But it still rankles... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I've done that trip numerous times. The fare to London and back is £204.
Unless you go on specified trains at off-peak times to suit the train operating company.
The "walk up" fare for that journey is £205ish.
That includes going on the most expensive trains back from Paddington, which is £144!
As illustrated, there are a lot of ways of doing it far far cheaper. "
Well for all you pensioners who have the freedom to travel at any time of day of course that works. I can travel to London and back on Megabus for £12 if I book it early enough but there are limited numbers of seats available at that price and travelling by rail is much the same. Loss leaders to get people on board and fill a percentage of the seats to offset the basic cost of running the service is not rocket science now. The real problem is that these trains are running on lines owned by railtrack which had inherited a system that had been starved of investment for decades. You have to ask whether the lack of investment was all because of the rise of individual car ownership or short term investment decisions by shareholders? |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"I've done that trip numerous times. The fare to London and back is £204.
Unless you go on specified trains at off-peak times to suit the train operating company.
The "walk up" fare for that journey is £205ish.
That includes going on the most expensive trains back from Paddington, which is £144!
As illustrated, there are a lot of ways of doing it far far cheaper.
But often that's what you have to do.
I work in a sales role. Quite often I'll get a meeting in my calender for the next day, at 09:30 in the City. A full fare return is all I can do.
Obviously it's expensed, so not out of my pocket. But it still rankles... "
The Train Operating Companies use expensive fares to control capacity.
Modern trains are fixed length, carriages can't be added and there isn't capacity to run additional trains.
Railway usage has exploded, which isn't a bad thing. We now need to build more capacity into the system, maybe even reversing some of the Beeching cuts in strategic places. |
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"I've done that trip numerous times. The fare to London and back is £204.
Unless you go on specified trains at off-peak times to suit the train operating company.
The "walk up" fare for that journey is £205ish.
That includes going on the most expensive trains back from Paddington, which is £144!
As illustrated, there are a lot of ways of doing it far far cheaper.
But often that's what you have to do.
I work in a sales role. Quite often I'll get a meeting in my calender for the next day, at 09:30 in the City. A full fare return is all I can do.
Obviously it's expensed, so not out of my pocket. But it still rankles...
The Train Operating Companies use expensive fares to control capacity.
Modern trains are fixed length, carriages can't be added and there isn't capacity to run additional trains.
Railway usage has exploded, which isn't a bad thing. We now need to build more capacity into the system, maybe even reversing some of the Beeching cuts in strategic places.
"
Yes, many of them are still there (baring the rails).
Using a sensible approach, with small self powered (electric) trains, it would not be a too daunting a task.
It would also allow sensible housing development, away from the present motorway/rail corridors. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"I've done that trip numerous times. The fare to London and back is £204.
Unless you go on specified trains at off-peak times to suit the train operating company.
The "walk up" fare for that journey is £205ish.
That includes going on the most expensive trains back from Paddington, which is £144!
As illustrated, there are a lot of ways of doing it far far cheaper.
But often that's what you have to do.
I work in a sales role. Quite often I'll get a meeting in my calender for the next day, at 09:30 in the City. A full fare return is all I can do.
Obviously it's expensed, so not out of my pocket. But it still rankles...
The Train Operating Companies use expensive fares to control capacity.
Modern trains are fixed length, carriages can't be added and there isn't capacity to run additional trains.
Railway usage has exploded, which isn't a bad thing. We now need to build more capacity into the system, maybe even reversing some of the Beeching cuts in strategic places.
Yes, many of them are still there (baring the rails).
Using a sensible approach, with small self powered (electric) trains, it would not be a too daunting a task.
It would also allow sensible housing development, away from the present motorway/rail corridors. "
The one that stands out, is an East to West link from Cambridge to Oxford.
New lines would be passenger only, so could be more of a green light rail scheme. |
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"I've done that trip numerous times. The fare to London and back is £204.
Unless you go on specified trains at off-peak times to suit the train operating company.
"
You compared the train fare to a plane fare this weekend.
Is your plane ticket flexible?
I looked up a weekend in London, return from Bristol, Saturday morning until Sunday night. It's £42.00
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By *ara J OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Okay, let's take your figures, then.
Distance from Bristol to London and back - 234 miles @ £42
Distance from Bristol to Gran Canaria and back - 4674 miles @ £115
Cost per mile:
By train: 18p per mile
By plane: 2p per mile
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"Okay, let's take your figures, then.
Distance from Bristol to London and back - 234 miles @ £42
Distance from Bristol to Gran Canaria and back - 4674 miles @ £115
Cost per mile:
By train: 18p per mile
By plane: 2p per mile
"
Using your figures, the comparative plane fare from Bristol to London return would be under a fiver.
18 pence per mile sounds very reasonable for a return from Bristol to London and with advanced booking would always be available around that price, whereas your flight would be a lot more expensive in say, mid-August.
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"Okay, let's take your figures, then.
Distance from Bristol to London and back - 234 miles @ £42
Distance from Bristol to Gran Canaria and back - 4674 miles @ £115
Cost per mile:
By train: 18p per mile
By plane: 2p per mile
Using your figures, the comparative plane fare from Bristol to London return would be under a fiver.
18 pence per mile sounds very reasonable for a return from Bristol to London and with advanced booking would always be available around that price, whereas your flight would be a lot more expensive in say, mid-August.
"
HMRC allow 45p to be paid as expenses per mile for a car journey. If we want to compare another mode of transport. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Okay, let's take your figures, then.
Distance from Bristol to London and back - 234 miles @ £42
Distance from Bristol to Gran Canaria and back - 4674 miles @ £115
Cost per mile:
By train: 18p per mile
By plane: 2p per mile
"
think you will find the distance from bristol to gc return is around 3,500 or did diane abbot do the maths.  |
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By *ara J OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
From the BBC:
The European Commission published a report in 2016 that compared different types of train fares.
The UK had the fourth most expensive regional, peak, single fares bought on the day of travel, behind Switzerland, Slovenia and Spain
It was the third most expensive if bought a week or a month in advance
For off-peak, return, regional fares it was 12th for on the day and 11th for a week or a month in advance
The UK had the most expensive inter-city fares for peak single tickets
For inter-city peak return tickets, it had the sixth most expensive tickets bought on the day, the second most expensive a week in advance and the dearest a month in advance
Another way of looking at it is by measuring the average revenue per train kilometre, used by the Rail Market Monitoring Scheme, another European Commission report.
It's a useful figure because it combines revenue from all sorts of tickets.
But how full the trains are makes a big difference to this figure, so it is very much influenced by the geography of a country and how good its train companies are at selling expensive tickets to those who can pay more and cheaper tickets to those who will not.
The UK comes out on top by this measure.
But there are other problems with it:
It includes non-ticket revenue from things such as catering and car parking
Changes in the average fare paid will not necessarily be the same as changes in the fares charged - it may just be that more people have decided to book in advance or more have needed to travel at the last minute
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By *ara J OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Basically, the BBC concluded that because railways in UK are the least subsidised of any in Europe, rail companies offer some of the lowest rates for advance bookings and the highest rates for tickets bought on the day.
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Even though the UK government - taxpayers - have been subsidising these state (foreign) run railways in the UK, the fares, for example, are not going to attract enough people away from their more polluting cars. This is a conundrum that needs to be solved, to reduce our global heating gas emissions urgently. Our fares and taxpayers subsidies may be helping overseas to reduce their fares but we need to do our own changes. |
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By *ara J OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I'm travelling now on a train service in state ownership.
None of the train looks like communists.
Nothing Marxist about the fare either - £55 one-way from Kirkcaldy to Inverness.
This message is brought to you courtesy of Abellio, a subsidiary of the Ministry of Transport in the Netherlands.
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