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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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I don’t know why Chanel 4 gave them the air time 
Just a bunch of murdering criminals and drug dealers who are worried about losing the free pass to deal across the north south divide.
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"I don’t know why Chanel 4 gave them the air time
Just a bunch of murdering criminals and drug dealers who are worried about losing the free pass to deal across the north south divide.
"
They love the crack. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Still confused how any of the 17.4 million who voted for us to control our borders say that they don't want a border on the island of Ireland "
I know.
To take control of your borders requires a hard border being erected with infrastructure to facilitate the border.
To want to control our borders then requires a hard border with infrastructure on in Northern Ireland
Take control of our borders, but not that one apparently...
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"Still confused how any of the 17.4 million who voted for us to control our borders say that they don't want a border on the island of Ireland
I know.
To take control of your borders requires a hard border being erected with infrastructure to facilitate the border.
To want to control our borders then requires a hard border with infrastructure on in Northern Ireland
Take control of our borders, but not that one apparently...
"
What do you expect a border to control people and or goods? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Still confused how any of the 17.4 million who voted for us to control our borders say that they don't want a border on the island of Ireland
I know.
To take control of your borders requires a hard border being erected with infrastructure to facilitate the border.
To want to control our borders then requires a hard border with infrastructure on in Northern Ireland
Take control of our borders, but not that one apparently...
What do you expect a border to control people and or goods?"
Its not just the uk checks, its checks the eu will want on goods/people entering the eu zone too |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"Still confused how any of the 17.4 million who voted for us to control our borders say that they don't want a border on the island of Ireland
I know.
To take control of your borders requires a hard border being erected with infrastructure to facilitate the border.
To want to control our borders then requires a hard border with infrastructure on in Northern Ireland
Take control of our borders, but not that one apparently...
What do you expect a border to control people and or goods?
Its not just the uk checks, its checks the eu will want on goods/people entering the eu zone too"
What checks are carried out on goods to and from the uk and any other eu country and between all eu countries at the moment ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Still confused how any of the 17.4 million who voted for us to control our borders say that they don't want a border on the island of Ireland
I know.
To take control of your borders requires a hard border being erected with infrastructure to facilitate the border.
To want to control our borders then requires a hard border with infrastructure on in Northern Ireland
Take control of our borders, but not that one apparently...
What do you expect a border to control people and or goods?
Its not just the uk checks, its checks the eu will want on goods/people entering the eu zone too
What checks are carried out on goods to and from the uk and any other eu country and between all eu countries at the moment ?"
Currently.. in a word... Nowt would be my assumption. , other than possible checks for dodgy/ illegal material |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"Still confused how any of the 17.4 million who voted for us to control our borders say that they don't want a border on the island of Ireland
I know.
To take control of your borders requires a hard border being erected with infrastructure to facilitate the border.
To want to control our borders then requires a hard border with infrastructure on in Northern Ireland
Take control of our borders, but not that one apparently...
What do you expect a border to control people and or goods?
Its not just the uk checks, its checks the eu will want on goods/people entering the eu zone too
What checks are carried out on goods to and from the uk and any other eu country and between all eu countries at the moment ?
Currently.. in a word... Nowt would be my assumption. , other than possible checks for dodgy/ illegal material "
At the border you would be right BUT and its a huge BUT every single item that crosses every single border in the EU has to be accounted for in VAT records so every single item crossing a border is traceable and accounted for by every single business which gives the lie to why a hard border in Ireland is neccessary to control trade, it is checked and controlled already and there is no need for anything to change, all that would be added is another declaration by importers/exporters with the tariff rate for whatever is being moved |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Still confused how any of the 17.4 million who voted for us to control our borders say that they don't want a border on the island of Ireland
I know.
To take control of your borders requires a hard border being erected with infrastructure to facilitate the border.
To want to control our borders then requires a hard border with infrastructure on in Northern Ireland
Take control of our borders, but not that one apparently...
What do you expect a border to control people and or goods?
Its not just the uk checks, its checks the eu will want on goods/people entering the eu zone too
What checks are carried out on goods to and from the uk and any other eu country and between all eu countries at the moment ?
Currently.. in a word... Nowt would be my assumption. , other than possible checks for dodgy/ illegal material
At the border you would be right BUT and its a huge BUT every single item that crosses every single border in the EU has to be accounted for in VAT records so every single item crossing a border is traceable and accounted for by every single business which gives the lie to why a hard border in Ireland is neccessary to control trade, it is checked and controlled already and there is no need for anything to change, all that would be added is another declaration by importers/exporters with the tariff rate for whatever is being moved"
If so, and continues after a brexit scenario then great news. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Still confused how any of the 17.4 million who voted for us to control our borders say that they don't want a border on the island of Ireland
I know.
To take control of your borders requires a hard border being erected with infrastructure to facilitate the border.
To want to control our borders then requires a hard border with infrastructure on in Northern Ireland
Take control of our borders, but not that one apparently...
What do you expect a border to control people and or goods?"
Would you expect passport controls on the borders between Ireland and Northern Ireland if the UK left with no deal? |
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"Still confused how any of the 17.4 million who voted for us to control our borders say that they don't want a border on the island of Ireland "
The potential brexit outcome options were always subject to limits, including those of legal agreement constraints. The target outcome was to leave with a negotiated deal too, which would involve compromise. Brexit was a UK matter not, for example, just an English brexit. Again, prior to the referendum, trade flow and movement of people was clear - we discussed it here on fab. People were expected to vote on what was a complex situation, in terms of how it would be concluded due to the diverse nature of the constraints and practical considerations involved |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"It's only right that 17.4 million people's views be ignored because of a a couple of hundred Irish drug dealers  "
Oh, you mean people living in England know what's in the best interests of people living in Ireland. Hmmm . . . |
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"It's only right that 17.4 million people's views be ignored because of a a couple of hundred Irish drug dealers "
...or maybe an international agreement signed by your government and registered with the UN with the US and EU as guarantors? That just might have a teensy weensy bit to do with it?  |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"Still confused how any of the 17.4 million who voted for us to control our borders say that they don't want a border on the island of Ireland
I know.
To take control of your borders requires a hard border being erected with infrastructure to facilitate the border.
To want to control our borders then requires a hard border with infrastructure on in Northern Ireland
Take control of our borders, but not that one apparently...
What do you expect a border to control people and or goods?
Would you expect passport controls on the borders between Ireland and Northern Ireland if the UK left with no deal? "
That is the harder part to keep everyone happy, depending on what you are trying to control, is it a problem for either side if those that live on the island go back and forth as now ? As both sides have said fot short term visits Visas wont be needed and as Ireland isn't in schengen I cant see it being a gateway for anything but a very few people going either way that shouldnt |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"As both sides have said fot short term visits Visas wont be needed and as Ireland isn't in schengen I cant see it being a gateway for anything but a very few people going either way that shouldnt"
500 million people have the legal right to enter Ireland.
500 million people will be able to enter the United Kingdom via the British border in Ireland.
That was true before the referendum and it will be true after the UK leaves the EU.
Unless the UK plans to erect check-points on its border to check who is entering the UK.
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"As both sides have said fot short term visits Visas wont be needed and as Ireland isn't in schengen I cant see it being a gateway for anything but a very few people going either way that shouldnt
500 million people have the legal right to enter Ireland.
500 million people will be able to enter the United Kingdom via the British border in Ireland.
That was true before the referendum and it will be true after the UK leaves the EU.
Unless the UK plans to erect check-points on its border to check who is entering the UK.
"
And they will still be able to come in via Dover what they wont be able to is to stay here beyond the 90 days or what ever is agreed exactly the same as we can enter the EU, why would anyone bother to go to Ireland then here instead of going direct, but hey why let reality get in the way |
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"As both sides have said fot short term visits Visas wont be needed and as Ireland isn't in schengen I cant see it being a gateway for anything but a very few people going either way that shouldnt
500 million people have the legal right to enter Ireland.
500 million people will be able to enter the United Kingdom via the British border in Ireland.
That was true before the referendum and it will be true after the UK leaves the EU.
Unless the UK plans to erect check-points on its border to check who is entering the UK.
And they will still be able to come in via Dover what they wont be able to is to stay here beyond the 90 days or what ever is agreed exactly the same as we can enter the EU, why would anyone bother to go to Ireland then here instead of going direct, but hey why let reality get in the way"
No border checks = no way of knowing when the 90 days start. And unless there are random stop and produce documents checks in the streets, there's no mechanism to even ask.
Also absolutely nobody has come up with an answer to a problem i posed months ago, relating to the "no border". At present if known terrorists enter the EU from eg. Syria, then often instead of arresting them immediately they will be shadowed by the intelligence services and information about their movements shared as they travel. This is a huge part of stopping major terror attacks.
Under the lack of terms of a no deal brexit, any such terrorists will be able to just walk unchallenged into england via ireland. As they can at the moment. BUT there will no longer be any intelligence sharing to tell us they are coming. Yes, in some cases the EU may tip us off unofficially, but there will no longer be any obligation to do. Because Boris is telling the EU to go fuck themselves and that England wants nothing to do with them, but we want everything free without giving anything back...
So shared entry records from the EU borders? Not a hope in hell. |
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"As both sides have said fot short term visits Visas wont be needed and as Ireland isn't in schengen I cant see it being a gateway for anything but a very few people going either way that shouldnt
500 million people have the legal right to enter Ireland.
500 million people will be able to enter the United Kingdom via the British border in Ireland.
That was true before the referendum and it will be true after the UK leaves the EU.
Unless the UK plans to erect check-points on its border to check who is entering the UK.
And they will still be able to come in via Dover what they wont be able to is to stay here beyond the 90 days or what ever is agreed exactly the same as we can enter the EU, why would anyone bother to go to Ireland then here instead of going direct, but hey why let reality get in the way
No border checks = no way of knowing when the 90 days start. And unless there are random stop and produce documents checks in the streets, there's no mechanism to even ask.
Also absolutely nobody has come up with an answer to a problem i posed months ago, relating to the "no border". At present if known terrorists enter the EU from eg. Syria, then often instead of arresting them immediately they will be shadowed by the intelligence services and information about their movements shared as they travel. This is a huge part of stopping major terror attacks.
Under the lack of terms of a no deal brexit, any such terrorists will be able to just walk unchallenged into england via ireland. As they can at the moment. BUT there will no longer be any intelligence sharing to tell us they are coming. Yes, in some cases the EU may tip us off unofficially, but there will no longer be any obligation to do. Because Boris is telling the EU to go fuck themselves and that England wants nothing to do with them, but we want everything free without giving anything back...
So shared entry records from the EU borders? Not a hope in hell."
You appear to be suggesting that "known terrorists from Syria" are allowed to travel into the EU unhindered and that once in any part of the EU they can then freely travel within the EU including Ireland...
Do you seriously believe this?  |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"As both sides have said fot short term visits Visas wont be needed and as Ireland isn't in schengen I cant see it being a gateway for anything but a very few people going either way that shouldnt
500 million people have the legal right to enter Ireland.
500 million people will be able to enter the United Kingdom via the British border in Ireland.
That was true before the referendum and it will be true after the UK leaves the EU.
Unless the UK plans to erect check-points on its border to check who is entering the UK.
And they will still be able to come in via Dover what they wont be able to is to stay here beyond the 90 days or what ever is agreed exactly the same as we can enter the EU, why would anyone bother to go to Ireland then here instead of going direct, but hey why let reality get in the way"
The Border Force operates immigration controls at Dover.
At all sea and air ports, basically.
Your passport will be stamped, creating a record of who is entering the country and how long they are entitled to be here.
No such troubles for anyone crossing the land border.
No passport check, no stamp in the book, no records kept of who is entering the country and how long they are entitled to be here.
Another Brexit win.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
You appear to be suggesting that "known terrorists from Syria" are allowed to travel into the EU unhindered and that once in any part of the EU they can then freely travel within the EU including Ireland...
Do you seriously believe this? "
I saw that on a poster during the 2016 referendum. And in the Daily Mail.
So it must be true. |
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"
You appear to be suggesting that "known terrorists from Syria" are allowed to travel into the EU unhindered and that once in any part of the EU they can then freely travel within the EU including Ireland...
Do you seriously believe this?
I saw that on a poster during the 2016 referendum. And in the Daily Mail.
So it must be true."
Oh, I see. Sarcasm can be hard to detect here. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Yes, Mr Farage and the Vote Leave people were crystal clear - stay in the EU and our new land border would be with Syria and Iran.
I remember a Daily Mail cartoon with terrorists and rats coming across the border (it was denounced as reminiscent of 1930s Nazi propaganda.)
So what applied to the UK while in the EU must apply equally to Ireland while in the EU.
Hence, it seems scarcely believable that these same people want no checks or controls whatsoever on a country that soon will border Syria and Iran.
 |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
“I think its legitimate to say that if people feel we have lost control of our borders completely, and we have lost control of our borders completely as members of the European union, and if people feel that voting doesn’t change anything, then violence is the next step.”
- Nigel Farage, 2016 |
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"As both sides have said fot short term visits Visas wont be needed and as Ireland isn't in schengen I cant see it being a gateway for anything but a very few people going either way that shouldnt
500 million people have the legal right to enter Ireland.
500 million people will be able to enter the United Kingdom via the British border in Ireland.
That was true before the referendum and it will be true after the UK leaves the EU.
Unless the UK plans to erect check-points on its border to check who is entering the UK.
And they will still be able to come in via Dover what they wont be able to is to stay here beyond the 90 days or what ever is agreed exactly the same as we can enter the EU, why would anyone bother to go to Ireland then here instead of going direct, but hey why let reality get in the way
No border checks = no way of knowing when the 90 days start. And unless there are random stop and produce documents checks in the streets, there's no mechanism to even ask.
Also absolutely nobody has come up with an answer to a problem i posed months ago, relating to the "no border". At present if known terrorists enter the EU from eg. Syria, then often instead of arresting them immediately they will be shadowed by the intelligence services and information about their movements shared as they travel. This is a huge part of stopping major terror attacks.
Under the lack of terms of a no deal brexit, any such terrorists will be able to just walk unchallenged into england via ireland. As they can at the moment. BUT there will no longer be any intelligence sharing to tell us they are coming. Yes, in some cases the EU may tip us off unofficially, but there will no longer be any obligation to do. Because Boris is telling the EU to go fuck themselves and that England wants nothing to do with them, but we want everything free without giving anything back...
So shared entry records from the EU borders? Not a hope in hell.
You appear to be suggesting that "known terrorists from Syria" are allowed to travel into the EU unhindered and that once in any part of the EU they can then freely travel within the EU including Ireland...
Do you seriously believe this? "
Of course it happens. The security services follow their movements, watch who they contact, get information about the networks. Then stop them before major incidents occur. They follow the known little fish to find the unknown bigger fish. And a crucial part of that is international cooperation. The thing that our government is determined to stop. |
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"As both sides have said fot short term visits Visas wont be needed and as Ireland isn't in schengen I cant see it being a gateway for anything but a very few people going either way that shouldnt
500 million people have the legal right to enter Ireland.
500 million people will be able to enter the United Kingdom via the British border in Ireland.
That was true before the referendum and it will be true after the UK leaves the EU.
Unless the UK plans to erect check-points on its border to check who is entering the UK.
And they will still be able to come in via Dover what they wont be able to is to stay here beyond the 90 days or what ever is agreed exactly the same as we can enter the EU, why would anyone bother to go to Ireland then here instead of going direct, but hey why let reality get in the way
No border checks = no way of knowing when the 90 days start. And unless there are random stop and produce documents checks in the streets, there's no mechanism to even ask.
Also absolutely nobody has come up with an answer to a problem i posed months ago, relating to the "no border". At present if known terrorists enter the EU from eg. Syria, then often instead of arresting them immediately they will be shadowed by the intelligence services and information about their movements shared as they travel. This is a huge part of stopping major terror attacks.
Under the lack of terms of a no deal brexit, any such terrorists will be able to just walk unchallenged into england via ireland. As they can at the moment. BUT there will no longer be any intelligence sharing to tell us they are coming. Yes, in some cases the EU may tip us off unofficially, but there will no longer be any obligation to do. Because Boris is telling the EU to go fuck themselves and that England wants nothing to do with them, but we want everything free without giving anything back...
So shared entry records from the EU borders? Not a hope in hell.
You appear to be suggesting that "known terrorists from Syria" are allowed to travel into the EU unhindered and that once in any part of the EU they can then freely travel within the EU including Ireland...
Do you seriously believe this?
Of course it happens. The security services follow their movements, watch who they contact, get information about the networks. Then stop them before major incidents occur. They follow the known little fish to find the unknown bigger fish. And a crucial part of that is international cooperation. The thing that our government is determined to stop."
Your security services may do that. Ours do not. |
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"It's only right that 17.4 million people's views be ignored because of a a couple of hundred Irish drug dealers
...or maybe an international agreement signed by your government and registered with the UN with the US and EU as guarantors? That just might have a teensy weensy bit to do with it? "
The Good Friday Agreement is Bilateral Treaty between the UK and Republic of Ireland.
It was not signed by the US or EU and they are not guarantors.
It is registered with the UN as the UK and RoI are member states of the UN and therefore have to comply with Article 102 of the UN Charter.
This is what Senator Mitchell who brokered the agreement said of the EU’s role in the talks,
Mr Mitchell said the European Union played a part in thawing relations between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom which enabled the Northern Ireland peace process and was central to the Good Friday Agreement.
"I don't think the European Union was ESSENTIAL in the [Good Friday Agreement] talks themselves, but I believe the talks would NEVER have occurred had there not been a European Union."
Some may argue the second part was not necessarily true as the IRA had come to realise it couldn’t win militarily.
The GFA does not prevent the UK from leaving the EU, this is what Lord Justice McCloskey said in his ruling when he rejected the case in Northern Ireland last month,
“Neither NIA 1998 nor the international treaty scheduled to the Belfast Agreement (or, for that matter, the Agreement itself) has the effect in law of requiring the continued membership of the EU on the part of the UK.
The Supreme Court was alert to this in the first Miller Ruling. Furthermore, none of the sources mentioned subjects the EU 27 to conclude an Article 50 Withdrawal Agreement in any particular terms.”
“Once again, neither the Belfast Agreement nor this suite of provisions was predicated on the basis that UK membership of the EU would continue forever. Neither of them can be construed as requiring a customs Union or continued regulatory alignment. More fundamentally, there is no sufficient evidential foundation for the incompatibility asserted. There is no suggestion that the incompatibility has already materialised”
The UK Supreme Court also ruled the GFA does not prevent the UK from leaving the EU, as they stated in their ruling in the first Gina Miller case,
During the four-day Supreme Court hearing in December, the justices heard arguments that Northern Ireland had a unique place in the UK constitution because of the nature of the 1998 Belfast Agreement and the devolved bodies that flowed from it.
Counsel argued that Northern Ireland's constitution could not be changed without a vote by its people.
But in its judgement, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled that not only did the devolved bodies have no role in deciding the future of the UK as a whole in the EU, Northern Ireland had no special status beyond this either.
They ruled that, while Northern Ireland's people did indeed have a fundamental constitutional say on being part of the UK, that did not extend to being part of the EU. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"As both sides have said fot short term visits Visas wont be needed and as Ireland isn't in schengen I cant see it being a gateway for anything but a very few people going either way that shouldnt
500 million people have the legal right to enter Ireland.
500 million people will be able to enter the United Kingdom via the British border in Ireland.
That was true before the referendum and it will be true after the UK leaves the EU.
Unless the UK plans to erect check-points on its border to check who is entering the UK.
And they will still be able to come in via Dover what they wont be able to is to stay here beyond the 90 days or what ever is agreed exactly the same as we can enter the EU, why would anyone bother to go to Ireland then here instead of going direct, but hey why let reality get in the way
The Border Force operates immigration controls at Dover.
At all sea and air ports, basically.
Your passport will be stamped, creating a record of who is entering the country and how long they are entitled to be here.
No such troubles for anyone crossing the land border.
No passport check, no stamp in the book, no records kept of who is entering the country and how long they are entitled to be here.
Another Brexit win.
"
Never had my passport stamped anywhere unless you need a visa, but strangely the authorities know exactly when someone enters this country form when the show a passport, it all goes into the super computer, try getting on a plane without showing ID and going through security, tickets need to be bought that can be traced, as for ferries that can be the same, it certainly was the last time I crossed over to Eire no reason why it cant be he same or ferries going to the North (might be already for all I know) As for people staying for longer than 90 days what are they going to do for work/health care or even getting cash out or using credit cards they can soon be tracked down if neccessary, do you really believe the Irish will allow terrorists into Eire so they can PERHAPS come to the UK, we live in a surveilance society, very few will slip the net and those intent on doing so porbably would have done so anyway |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"You seem to be suggesting there is no risk from any of the 500 million coming through Ireland but there is a risk from the 500 million coming through Dover.
It makes no sense.
"
Where did I say there is risk from either what I said was everyone that comes into this country can be tracked, UNLESS they dont want to be and can live under the radar, I dont think many EU citizens will do that and for those coming from outside the EU its very unlikely any EU country would allow them in either, you have not yet put up one single reason why in reallity there needs to be a hard border.
PS seeing as according to all you remainerss the UK is going to hell in a handcart why the hell will anyone come here in the first place |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
" you have not yet put up one single reason why in reallity there needs to be a hard border.
"
Good. Let's remove all border controls then. There is no need for them, according to you.
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"It's only right that 17.4 million people's views be ignored because of a a couple of hundred Irish drug dealers
...or maybe an international agreement signed by your government and registered with the UN with the US and EU as guarantors? That just might have a teensy weensy bit to do with it?
The Good Friday Agreement is Bilateral Treaty between the UK and Republic of Ireland.
It was not signed by the US or EU and they are not guarantors.
It is registered with the UN as the UK and RoI are member states of the UN and therefore have to comply with Article 102 of the UN Charter.
This is what Senator Mitchell who brokered the agreement said of the EU’s role in the talks,
Mr Mitchell said the European Union played a part in thawing relations between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom which enabled the Northern Ireland peace process and was central to the Good Friday Agreement.
"I don't think the European Union was ESSENTIAL in the [Good Friday Agreement] talks themselves, but I believe the talks would NEVER have occurred had there not been a European Union."
Some may argue the second part was not necessarily true as the IRA had come to realise it couldn’t win militarily.
The GFA does not prevent the UK from leaving the EU, this is what Lord Justice McCloskey said in his ruling when he rejected the case in Northern Ireland last month,
“Neither NIA 1998 nor the international treaty scheduled to the Belfast Agreement (or, for that matter, the Agreement itself) has the effect in law of requiring the continued membership of the EU on the part of the UK.
The Supreme Court was alert to this in the first Miller Ruling. Furthermore, none of the sources mentioned subjects the EU 27 to conclude an Article 50 Withdrawal Agreement in any particular terms.”
“Once again, neither the Belfast Agreement nor this suite of provisions was predicated on the basis that UK membership of the EU would continue forever. Neither of them can be construed as requiring a customs Union or continued regulatory alignment. More fundamentally, there is no sufficient evidential foundation for the incompatibility asserted. There is no suggestion that the incompatibility has already materialised”
The UK Supreme Court also ruled the GFA does not prevent the UK from leaving the EU, as they stated in their ruling in the first Gina Miller case,
During the four-day Supreme Court hearing in December, the justices heard arguments that Northern Ireland had a unique place in the UK constitution because of the nature of the 1998 Belfast Agreement and the devolved bodies that flowed from it.
Counsel argued that Northern Ireland's constitution could not be changed without a vote by its people.
But in its judgement, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled that not only did the devolved bodies have no role in deciding the future of the UK as a whole in the EU, Northern Ireland had no special status beyond this either.
They ruled that, while Northern Ireland's people did indeed have a fundamental constitutional say on being part of the UK, that did not extend to being part of the EU."
You appear to be refuting arguments that I didn't make while ignoring the one very small point I did make and that was that the Belfast Agreement is the reason for avoiding border infrastructure and not some drug dealers.
Nobody said anything about trying to stop you leaving the eu.
Well, apart from the majority of voters in the north of Ireland but sin scéal eile ?? |
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"The next generation?
The last one must've forgotten where the Semtex is buried.
Senile dementia and what not.
"
The last one are all billionaires and control the cocaine and heroin routs into Europe from Africa due to links they built up in Libya/Syria/Morocco smuggling guns.
The Russian mafia could not even take the business off them.
So they dont need to remember if any caches survived cause within 24 hours of the peace process being torn up, they can have camps in Syria and weapons bought, and unlike isis they can flow explosives and weapons into the UK as freely as cocaine and heroine flow in, they wont have to rely on a pressure cooker bomb.
Also I guess the new IRA got airtime because they wanted to see what they had to say? |
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"It's only right that 17.4 million people's views be ignored because of a a couple of hundred Irish drug dealers
...or maybe an international agreement signed by your government and registered with the UN with the US and EU as guarantors? That just might have a teensy weensy bit to do with it?
The Good Friday Agreement is Bilateral Treaty between the UK and Republic of Ireland.
It was not signed by the US or EU and they are not guarantors.
It is registered with the UN as the UK and RoI are member states of the UN and therefore have to comply with Article 102 of the UN Charter.
This is what Senator Mitchell who brokered the agreement said of the EU’s role in the talks,
Mr Mitchell said the European Union played a part in thawing relations between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom which enabled the Northern Ireland peace process and was central to the Good Friday Agreement.
"I don't think the European Union was ESSENTIAL in the [Good Friday Agreement] talks themselves, but I believe the talks would NEVER have occurred had there not been a European Union."
Some may argue the second part was not necessarily true as the IRA had come to realise it couldn’t win militarily.
The GFA does not prevent the UK from leaving the EU, this is what Lord Justice McCloskey said in his ruling when he rejected the case in Northern Ireland last month,
“Neither NIA 1998 nor the international treaty scheduled to the Belfast Agreement (or, for that matter, the Agreement itself) has the effect in law of requiring the continued membership of the EU on the part of the UK.
The Supreme Court was alert to this in the first Miller Ruling. Furthermore, none of the sources mentioned subjects the EU 27 to conclude an Article 50 Withdrawal Agreement in any particular terms.”
“Once again, neither the Belfast Agreement nor this suite of provisions was predicated on the basis that UK membership of the EU would continue forever. Neither of them can be construed as requiring a customs Union or continued regulatory alignment. More fundamentally, there is no sufficient evidential foundation for the incompatibility asserted. There is no suggestion that the incompatibility has already materialised”
The UK Supreme Court also ruled the GFA does not prevent the UK from leaving the EU, as they stated in their ruling in the first Gina Miller case,
During the four-day Supreme Court hearing in December, the justices heard arguments that Northern Ireland had a unique place in the UK constitution because of the nature of the 1998 Belfast Agreement and the devolved bodies that flowed from it.
Counsel argued that Northern Ireland's constitution could not be changed without a vote by its people.
But in its judgement, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled that not only did the devolved bodies have no role in deciding the future of the UK as a whole in the EU, Northern Ireland had no special status beyond this either.
They ruled that, while Northern Ireland's people did indeed have a fundamental constitutional say on being part of the UK, that did not extend to being part of the EU.
You appear to be refuting arguments that I didn't make while ignoring the one very small point I did make and that was that the Belfast Agreement is the reason for avoiding border infrastructure and not some drug dealers.
Nobody said anything about trying to stop you leaving the eu.
Well, apart from the majority of voters in the north of Ireland but sin scéal eile ??"
This is what is on the BBC website
What does the Good Friday Agreement say about a hard border?
A lot less than you might think. The only place in which it alludes to infrastructure at the border is in the section on security.
During the Troubles there were heavily fortified army barracks, police stations and watchtowers along the border. They were frequently attacked by Republican paramilitaries.
Part of the peace deal involved the UK government agreeing to a process of removing those installations in what became known as "demilitarisation".
The agreement states that "the development of a peaceful environment... can and should mean a normalisation of security arrangements and practices."
The government committed to "as early a return as possible to normal security arrangements in Northern Ireland, consistent with the level of threat".
That included "the removal of security installations". That is as far as the text goes.
There is no explicit commitment to never harden the border, and there is nothing about customs posts or regulatory controls.
Here is the link to the document
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I think it misses the point searching for words in a document, as if to provide some legal defence.
The Belfast Agreement gave both sides things to believe in:
* The Unionists, that the North would always be British unless and until a majority voted otherwise (plus the dropping of Ireland's constitutional claim)
* The Nationalists, the feeling they were all on one island by removing evidence of division, e.g. border checkpoints etc, automatic Irish citizenship and so on.
It was a beautifully constructed truce that rubbed neither nose in it and allowed both communities to move forward.
Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU, to remain aligned with the South and the rest of the EU.
It is surely incumbent on the rest of the UK to deliver Brexit in a way that accommodates the settlement, in word and in spirit.
Wreck that at your peril.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think it misses the point searching for words in a document, as if to provide some legal defence.
The Belfast Agreement gave both sides things to believe in:
* The Unionists, that the North would always be British unless and until a majority voted otherwise (plus the dropping of Ireland's constitutional claim)
* The Nationalists, the feeling they were all on one island by removing evidence of division, e.g. border checkpoints etc, automatic Irish citizenship and so on.
It was a beautifully constructed truce that rubbed neither nose in it and allowed both communities to move forward.
Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU, to remain aligned with the South and the rest of the EU.
It is surely incumbent on the rest of the UK to deliver Brexit in a way that accommodates the settlement, in word and in spirit.
Wreck that at your peril.
"
You must also factor in the changing political demographic.
In 2 years time for the 1st time ever
There will be a Catholic majority of voting age in the North.
This has hardly been mentioned by many , but is probably
1 of the Big Factors on why the Irish vote north & south must be treated fairly ,
so if in the future a possible unification of Ireland happens
It respects all those on the Island regardless of religion or
There history.
A brexit that messes up that wont just effect the island of Ireland , it will affect The Island of Britain as well .
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"I don’t know why Chanel 4 gave them the air time
Just a bunch of murdering criminals and drug dealers who are worried about losing the free pass to deal across the north south divide.
"
There'd be way more money to be made from snuggling over a hard border. There's free trade across the invisible divide at the moment so there's no way for anyone to get a cut. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"I don’t know why Chanel 4 gave them the air time
Just a bunch of murdering criminals and drug dealers who are worried about losing the free pass to deal across the north south divide.
There'd be way more money to be made from snuggling over a hard border. There's free trade across the invisible divide at the moment so there's no way for anyone to get a cut. "
Thats sort of true but differences in VAT and excise duties still make it worthwhile and in many cases are more than the tariffs would be |
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"I don’t know why Chanel 4 gave them the air time
Just a bunch of murdering criminals and drug dealers who are worried about losing the free pass to deal across the north south divide.
There'd be way more money to be made from snuggling over a hard border. There's free trade across the invisible divide at the moment so there's no way for anyone to get a cut.
Thats sort of true but differences in VAT and excise duties still make it worthwhile and in many cases are more than the tariffs would be"
You can commit vat fraud without any border at all and there are no tariffs at present so when the tariffs do come in they'll have a potential gain rather than a loss as suggested. The harder the brexit, the bigger the potential gain so I'd suggest the initial point is invalid. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Still confused how any of the 17.4 million who voted for us to control our borders say that they don't want a border on the island of Ireland
I know.
To take control of your borders requires a hard border being erected with infrastructure to facilitate the border.
To want to control our borders then requires a hard border with infrastructure on in Northern Ireland
Take control of our borders, but not that one apparently...
What do you expect a border to control people and or goods?
Would you expect passport controls on the borders between Ireland and Northern Ireland if the UK left with no deal?
That is the harder part to keep everyone happy, depending on what you are trying to control, is it a problem for either side if those that live on the island go back and forth as now ? As both sides have said fot short term visits Visas wont be needed and as Ireland isn't in schengen I cant see it being a gateway for anything but a very few people going either way that shouldnt"
All I'm getting at is one of the principle arguments of leaving the EU is that we can take control of our borders in relation to the transit people, so that means we'd need proper immigration points on all our borders with none UK states as in ports, airports, trains and the only land border the UK would have with a none UK state which is between Ireland & Northern Ireland. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"I don’t know why Chanel 4 gave them the air time
Just a bunch of murdering criminals and drug dealers who are worried about losing the free pass to deal across the north south divide.
There'd be way more money to be made from snuggling over a hard border. There's free trade across the invisible divide at the moment so there's no way for anyone to get a cut.
Thats sort of true but differences in VAT and excise duties still make it worthwhile and in many cases are more than the tariffs would be
You can commit vat fraud without any border at all and there are no tariffs at present so when the tariffs do come in they'll have a potential gain rather than a loss as suggested. The harder the brexit, the bigger the potential gain so I'd suggest the initial point is invalid. "
Not sure what you mean by the initial point.
But you have to be VAT registered to commit VAT fraud but anyone can currently buy something on one side of the border that has a lower VAT rate and cross the border and effectively sell it for less than it can be bought there, the same applies to duties on tobacco and booze. Most tariffs apart from food and vehicles are very small and both those are pretty tracable |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"
All I'm getting at is one of the principle arguments of leaving the EU is that we can take control of our borders in relation to the transit people, so that means we'd need proper immigration points on all our borders with none UK states as in ports, airports, trains and the only land border the UK would have with a none UK state which is between Ireland & Northern Ireland. "
Of course I accept that some can come in via NI that might be stopped, but logically its only going to be EU citizens as those from outside the EU are going to have to get through Irish immigration first, those from the EU will ba able to enter the UK just as they do now, the difference they cant stay(legally) for more than the time set which is 90 days, they wont be able to work or rent property legally so the situation is very different to currently, I agree that might not be perfect but if no one wants a hard border in Ireland then thats how it will have to be |
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"I don’t know why Chanel 4 gave them the air time
Just a bunch of murdering criminals and drug dealers who are worried about losing the free pass to deal across the north south divide.
There'd be way more money to be made from snuggling over a hard border. There's free trade across the invisible divide at the moment so there's no way for anyone to get a cut.
Thats sort of true but differences in VAT and excise duties still make it worthwhile and in many cases are more than the tariffs would be
You can commit vat fraud without any border at all and there are no tariffs at present so when the tariffs do come in they'll have a potential gain rather than a loss as suggested. The harder the brexit, the bigger the potential gain so I'd suggest the initial point is invalid.
Not sure what you mean by the initial point.
But you have to be VAT registered to commit VAT fraud but anyone can currently buy something on one side of the border that has a lower VAT rate and cross the border and effectively sell it for less than it can be bought there, the same applies to duties on tobacco and booze. Most tariffs apart from food and vehicles are very small and both those are pretty tracable"
The initial point was that they stand to lose money making abilities from a hard border which is actually the opposite of the reality.
Cross border smuggling was a major money maker at one time but hasn't been since the emergence of the single Europe as we know it in the nineties.
What I'm saying is that cross border smuggling isn't a major thing at the moment so there's clearly not enough money in it or it would be.
Diesel laundering is the exception but petrol and diesel are cheaper in the south than in the north.
Alcohol has possibilities as well but since there's currently no restrictions on cross border trade it's not much more costly to do it legitimately.
The border is only just over an hour from Dublin and the roads are good so half the population of the south are within shopping distance of the north if they want something that might be cheaper so the possibility of paramilitary groups making a fortune in the current climate are limited.
A hard border and tariffs could change that and open up possibilities for large scale smuggling like in the days of old.
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