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Are the Lib Dems now an Anti-democratic party ?
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yes. As Brexit was voted for through a referendum then it should only be revoked through another referendum. Making revokation a General Election manifesto promise means that all their other manifesto promises will be ignored. Remember their last promise "no student tuition fee cuts". Beware the promises of the Lib Dems. |
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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
I think that Brexit is basically a ridiculous idea , poorly thought out with no forward planning , and is a backward step . Nothing has happened during the referendum campaign or since the vote to convince me or make me think that Brexit is a good idea ,, but I think that simply cancelling Brexit without another referendum is an equally bad idea |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Yes. As Brexit was voted for through a referendum then it should only be revoked through another referendum. Making revokation a General Election manifesto promise means that all their other manifesto promises will be ignored. Remember their last promise "no student tuition fee cuts". Beware the promises of the Lib Dems. "
Yes because the Lib Dem’s are the only political Party ever to realise that having a manifesto is one thing and being in power is something completely different. Has any other political party ever broken their manifesto pledges? Ever? Lol |
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Fixating on something that once happened is backwards looking, instead of keeping the focus on the present and what's next for the future. Democracy is a fluid process - the electorate changes, as do their needs and understandings as they learn; political representatives learn on our behalf too; the context of the world we're in evolves and sometimes people take decisions that shape a new direction.
A party that remains stuck will die. The governing patty's manifesto holds post election and, in any event, it was the conservative party that decided to hold the advisory referendum, taking a snapshot of opinion on that day, it was not all the others. It was advisory, not a mandatory referendum. Wanting opinion to be frozen forever is unrealistic. It helps everyone if we are willing to learn and to sustain flexibility of purpose, rather than having one static fixation. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. "
A bargaining chip for coalition talks in which they settle for a 2nd referendum.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Fixating on something that once happened is backwards looking, instead of keeping the focus on the present and what's next for the future. Democracy is a fluid process - the electorate changes, as do their needs and understandings as they learn; political representatives learn on our behalf too; the context of the world we're in evolves and sometimes people take decisions that shape a new direction.
A party that remains stuck will die. The governing patty's manifesto holds post election and, in any event, it was the conservative party that decided to hold the advisory referendum, taking a snapshot of opinion on that day, it was not all the others. It was advisory, not a mandatory referendum. Wanting opinion to be frozen forever is unrealistic. It helps everyone if we are willing to learn and to sustain flexibility of purpose, rather than having one static fixation. "
.
so if we had another referendum and voted to stay it should not count because it's just for that day... utter Tosh |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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But what if the public vote for them? Will this end up being a Schrödinger's Government? Where democracy has decided to vote for the team dubbed "anti-democratic"?  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"But what if the public vote for them? Will this end up being a Schrödinger's Government? Where democracy has decided to vote for the team dubbed "anti-democratic"? "
.
Just so.True Irony |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Would it be anti-democratic if Farage, having lost 52/48 in 2016, was campaigning for another vote?
No, of course not.
If you are someone opposed to Brexit, you have no prospect right now of a 2nd referendum and therefore no democratic way to change that policy.
So, in the absence of a 2nd referendum, a General Election is the next best thing.
Giving people a choice in an election cannot be called anti-democratic.
And if a majority of people voted for a party committed to Article 50 revocation, that would become the democratic mandate of the population.
Not that I think that will happen, btw.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ? "
If enough people vote for them in a general election while their standing on a pledge to revoke A50 then they would have a democratic mandate to do so. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Fixating on something that once happened is backwards looking, instead of keeping the focus on the present and what's next for the future. Democracy is a fluid process - the electorate changes, as do their needs and understandings as they learn; political representatives learn on our behalf too; the context of the world we're in evolves and sometimes people take decisions that shape a new direction.
A party that remains stuck will die. The governing patty's manifesto holds post election and, in any event, it was the conservative party that decided to hold the advisory referendum, taking a snapshot of opinion on that day, it was not all the others. It was advisory, not a mandatory referendum. Wanting opinion to be frozen forever is unrealistic. It helps everyone if we are willing to learn and to sustain flexibility of purpose, rather than having one static fixation. "
The Tory government made the decision to hold the referendum as part of the cost of their alliance with the Lib Dems |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
That is untrue.
The Lib Dems wanted nothing to do with a referendum.
Indeed, Clegg during the 2010 coalition talks demanded an assurance from Cameron the Conservatives would not obsess about Europe during their tenure.
The policy was in the Conservative manifesto in 2015. It was not in the Lib Dem manifesto. |
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"Yes. As Brexit was voted for through a referendum then it should only be revoked through another referendum. Making revokation a General Election manifesto promise means that all their other manifesto promises will be ignored. Remember their last promise "no student tuition fee cuts". Beware the promises of the Lib Dems. "
Sorry but that is incorrect. In and of itself the referendum meant jack shit. It was an advisory referendum in which people expressed an opinion. Nobody voted for anything, nobody won anything, nobody lost anything. The only relevance it had was the result prompted both the Labour and Tory parties to include a Leave intention in their subsequent General Election manifestos. This is where the mandate to Leave sits. The Lib-Dems never did included such a thing in their Manifesto. |
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Lib dems are not democratic and more a tory lite party now than anything else their new leader voted for more austerity shite than several actual tory MPs. Willie rennie the branch manager in Scotland is a total cock womble that needs to feck off |
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No, the referendum was not binding. This means it is democratic to ignore it.
It's a bit depressing how people do not even know how a referendum or democracy is supposed to work, how without balance and checks its worthless. What makes a vote binding and what invalidates it. |
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"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ? "
Erm , erm ,
How can a party that wins an election based upon a manifesto pledge who then actions that pledge, be undemocratic
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No, the referendum was not binding. This means it is democratic to ignore it.
It's a bit depressing how people do not even know how a referendum or democracy is supposed to work, how without balance and checks its worthless. What makes a vote binding and what invalidates it."
Cameron said during campaigning that whatever the result it would be honoured (that bit him and Westminster on the backside) |
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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
There are quite a few LibDem MPs currently sitting as LibDem MPs for constituencies where the LibDem candidate was defeated at the last General Election , their argument for another referendum ( which I now hope for - after initially been against ) would be stronger if these MPs had imediately held by-elections in their constituencies when they "swapped sides" |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes. As Brexit was voted for through a referendum then it should only be revoked through another referendum. Making revokation a General Election manifesto promise means that all their other manifesto promises will be ignored. Remember their last promise "no student tuition fee cuts". Beware the promises of the Lib Dems.
Sorry but that is incorrect. In and of itself the referendum meant jack shit. It was an advisory referendum in which people expressed an opinion. Nobody voted for anything, nobody won anything, nobody lost anything. The only relevance it had was the result prompted both the Labour and Tory parties to include a Leave intention in their subsequent General Election manifestos. This is where the mandate to Leave sits. The Lib-Dems never did included such a thing in their Manifesto."
A referendum that was promised to be honoured whatever the result. The Lib Dems will never form a outright government, they would be shit scared of making a decision on their own. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ?
Erm , erm ,
How can a party that wins an election based upon a manifesto pledge who then actions that pledge, be undemocratic
"
because they're going against the will of the people in a referendum..advisory or not.. going against the will of the people is not democratic..but I do see your point,in a general election at least the people could vote for the brexit party and not liberals but I fear it will be a Coalition of the two... so stalemate again |
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"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ?
Erm , erm ,
How can a party that wins an election based upon a manifesto pledge who then actions that pledge, be undemocratic
because they're going against the will of the people in a referendum..advisory or not.. going against the will of the people is not democratic..but I do see your point,in a general election at least the people could vote for the brexit party and not liberals but I fear it will be a Coalition of the two... so stalemate again"
Yes but the subsequent vote is a democratic vote this time the public actually have an idea what their vote may lead too
If they won , which I feel they will not , but if so then democracy perfectly well illustrated |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
The policy presupposes the UK is still a member of the EU by the time of the next General Election.
If the UK leaves on Oct 31, they will need a new policy, since Article 50 is dead and buried. |
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By *ornLordMan
over a year ago
Wiltshire and London |
"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ?
Erm , erm ,
How can a party that wins an election based upon a manifesto pledge who then actions that pledge, be undemocratic
"
You know what you’re voting for - should the Lib Dems get in on this basis, honouring a manifesto pledge can’t be called anti-democratic. Or are only referenda - however incompetently managed, flawed and corrupt - democratic? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ?
Erm , erm ,
How can a party that wins an election based upon a manifesto pledge who then actions that pledge, be undemocratic
because they're going against the will of the people in a referendum..advisory or not.. going against the will of the people is not democratic..but I do see your point,in a general election at least the people could vote for the brexit party and not liberals but I fear it will be a Coalition of the two... so stalemate again
Yes but the subsequent vote is a democratic vote this time the public actually have an idea what their vote may lead too
If they won , which I feel they will not , but if so then democracy perfectly well illustrated"
not like 2016 then.are the monster raving loony party still going.. I might look at their policies and manifesto  |
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By *ornLordMan
over a year ago
Wiltshire and London |
"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ?
Erm , erm ,
How can a party that wins an election based upon a manifesto pledge who then actions that pledge, be undemocratic
because they're going against the will of the people in a referendum..advisory or not.. going against the will of the people is not democratic..but I do see your point,in a general election at least the people could vote for the brexit party and not liberals but I fear it will be a Coalition of the two... so stalemate again
Yes but the subsequent vote is a democratic vote this time the public actually have an idea what their vote may lead too
If they won , which I feel they will not , but if so then democracy perfectly well illustrated
not like 2016 then.are the monster raving loony party still going.. I might look at their policies and manifesto "
Just look at the tory one instead. They make the MRLs look sensible at present. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ?
Erm , erm ,
How can a party that wins an election based upon a manifesto pledge who then actions that pledge, be undemocratic
because they're going against the will of the people in a referendum..advisory or not.. going against the will of the people is not democratic..but I do see your point,in a general election at least the people could vote for the brexit party and not liberals but I fear it will be a Coalition of the two... so stalemate again
Yes but the subsequent vote is a democratic vote this time the public actually have an idea what their vote may lead too
If they won , which I feel they will not , but if so then democracy perfectly well illustrated
not like 2016 then.are the monster raving loony party still going.. I might look at their policies and manifesto
Just look at the tory one instead. They make the MRLs look sensible at present."
I'll go with the one offering most cake  |
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By *ornLordMan
over a year ago
Wiltshire and London |
"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ?
Erm , erm ,
How can a party that wins an election based upon a manifesto pledge who then actions that pledge, be undemocratic
because they're going against the will of the people in a referendum..advisory or not.. going against the will of the people is not democratic..but I do see your point,in a general election at least the people could vote for the brexit party and not liberals but I fear it will be a Coalition of the two... so stalemate again
Yes but the subsequent vote is a democratic vote this time the public actually have an idea what their vote may lead too
If they won , which I feel they will not , but if so then democracy perfectly well illustrated
not like 2016 then.are the monster raving loony party still going.. I might look at their policies and manifesto
Just look at the tory one instead. They make the MRLs look sensible at present. I'll go with the one offering most cake "
I fear that many will! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"There are quite a few LibDem MPs currently sitting as LibDem MPs for constituencies where the LibDem candidate was defeated at the last General Election , their argument for another referendum ( which I now hope for - after initially been against ) would be stronger if these MPs had imediately held by-elections in their constituencies when they "swapped sides" "
And possibly lost their seats and the Lib Dems would be back to their original number |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Fixating on something that once happened is backwards looking, instead of keeping the focus on the present and what's next for the future. Democracy is a fluid process - the electorate changes, as do their needs and understandings as they learn; political representatives learn on our behalf too; the context of the world we're in evolves and sometimes people take decisions that shape a new direction.
A party that remains stuck will die. The governing patty's manifesto holds post election and, in any event, it was the conservative party that decided to hold the advisory referendum, taking a snapshot of opinion on that day, it was not all the others. It was advisory, not a mandatory referendum. Wanting opinion to be frozen forever is unrealistic. It helps everyone if we are willing to learn and to sustain flexibility of purpose, rather than having one static fixation.
The Tory government made the decision to hold the referendum as part of the cost of their alliance with the Lib Dems"
Where do people get their information from  |
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By *ornLordMan
over a year ago
Wiltshire and London |
"Fixating on something that once happened is backwards looking, instead of keeping the focus on the present and what's next for the future. Democracy is a fluid process - the electorate changes, as do their needs and understandings as they learn; political representatives learn on our behalf too; the context of the world we're in evolves and sometimes people take decisions that shape a new direction.
A party that remains stuck will die. The governing patty's manifesto holds post election and, in any event, it was the conservative party that decided to hold the advisory referendum, taking a snapshot of opinion on that day, it was not all the others. It was advisory, not a mandatory referendum. Wanting opinion to be frozen forever is unrealistic. It helps everyone if we are willing to learn and to sustain flexibility of purpose, rather than having one static fixation.
The Tory government made the decision to hold the referendum as part of the cost of their alliance with the Lib Dems
Where do people get their information from "
 The comments in the Wail? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No, the referendum was not binding. This means it is democratic to ignore it.
It's a bit depressing how people do not even know how a referendum or democracy is supposed to work, how without balance and checks its worthless. What makes a vote binding and what invalidates it."
The problems are...
Cameron said he would abide by the result of the referendum
The referendum wasn't a legally binding referendum when it easily could have been
Cameron then left office so his personal pledge to the public went with him
A pledge from a previous Prime Minister cannot by any shape of the imagination be nailed onto the next Prime Minister
Parliament are not bound by law to vote any certain way on a none legally binding referendum
Any political party leader is within their democratic right to change / adopt their parties political direction, that's the idea of our system, you vote for who suits you the best and a wide choice is healthy for our country
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People only want to shout about democracy when it suits them.
If by some strange occurrence Corbyn becomes PM at the next election, will all the rightwing Brexit types be saying 'OK, let's let Jeremy deliver what was in his manifesto, as he has been democratically elected'?
Or will they be pissing and moaning and trying to be in work against his ideas, and demanding another election as soon as possible? |
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By *ornLordMan
over a year ago
Wiltshire and London |
"People only want to shout about democracy when it suits them.
If by some strange occurrence Corbyn becomes PM at the next election, will all the rightwing Brexit types be saying 'OK, let's let Jeremy deliver what was in his manifesto, as he has been democratically elected'?
Or will they be pissing and moaning and trying to be in work against his ideas, and demanding another election as soon as possible? "
Hmmm, now let me guess... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Bunch of non democratic arseholes"
If the Lib Dems somehow took power in Government without being voted in by the electorate and then the revoked Article 50 then yes you would be right.
But...
The only way the Lib Dems can get into power is by winning an election and if their stance is to revoke Article 50, if they won the election then carrying out what the electorate voted for isn't undemocratic is it. |
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Well done the lib dems, Am certainly going to vote for them as know what they want for this country. For it not to be ruined because of Brexit. Like these tory arseholes that are the conservative cabinet. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I'm in Scotland today and it's interesting to read the perspective here.
Willie Rennie, the LD Scottish leader, has come in for some stick after saying they would oppose a 2nd indy ref even if pro-independence parties won a majority in the election.
So now, MPs like Angus MacNeill are floating the idea of UDI without a referendum.
I think that could backfire.
When I was growing up, it was assumed independence would be declared if the nationalists won a majority of seats at Westminster.
The wisest thing the SNP did was to adopt the referendum route.
That allowed people like me to vote for them in an election, safe in the knowledge it wasn't a vote for independence because there would be a separate ballot.
I cannot imagine them going back on that policy and doing what the Lib Dems are doing. But in 2019, anything seems possible, I guess. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"Bunch of non democratic arseholes"
Or as President Putin told the Berlin security conference in 2008, we have moved from a bipolar world of the Cold War through a unipolar world that gave us Iraq to the multi polar world of today. |
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Anti democratic? Definitely. Liberal? Not for many years, since they merged with the SDP.
There was a day, going back to the times of Jo Grimond and Russell Johnson, when liberal MP's were people of principle, but in the past couple of decades the party has been very far removed from that.
Now led by a childish opportunist and liar and picking up parliamentary numbers from defectors who refuse to fight by-elections to renew their re-positioned mandate, the libdems have, for such a small party, a terrible record of vote rigging at elections.
Moreover, their MP's and office bearers from 2006 to this day are guilty of money laundering by refusing to pay back the 2.4 million which they received as a donation from fraudster Michael Brown. This money belongs to Brown's victims and should have been returned for repayment to them via the official channels, yet the libdems refused to return these proceeds of crime because.... they had spent the money!
Bunch of crooks.
Who would vote for criminals? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ? "
Not at all, our manifestos are statements of intent.
If the majority want it they'll vote lib dem, if they want no deal, they'll do the opposite and vote brexit party.
Don't like it, settle it with a legally binding referenda. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes. As Brexit was voted for through a referendum then it should only be revoked through another referendum. Making revokation a General Election manifesto promise means that all their other manifesto promises will be ignored. Remember their last promise "no student tuition fee cuts". Beware the promises of the Lib Dems. "
Tell that to Johnson and Farage.
Then give us a legally binding referenda. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ?
Not at all, our manifestos are statements of intent.
If the majority want it they'll vote lib dem, if they want no deal, they'll do the opposite and vote brexit party.
Don't like it, settle it with a legally binding referenda."
Exactly but some find that simple concept difficult to understand |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Anti democratic? Definitely. Liberal? Not for many years, since they merged with the SDP.
There was a day, going back to the times of Jo Grimond and Russell Johnson, when liberal MP's were people of principle, but in the past couple of decades the party has been very far removed from that.
Now led by a childish opportunist and liar and picking up parliamentary numbers from defectors who refuse to fight by-elections to renew their re-positioned mandate, the libdems have, for such a small party, a terrible record of vote rigging at elections.
Moreover, their MP's and office bearers from 2006 to this day are guilty of money laundering by refusing to pay back the 2.4 million which they received as a donation from fraudster Michael Brown. This money belongs to Brown's victims and should have been returned for repayment to them via the official channels, yet the libdems refused to return these proceeds of crime because.... they had spent the money!
Bunch of crooks.
Who would vote for criminals?"
..
The sheep (or should I say turkeys as it's nearing Christmas) will.. great eye opening Post.. they'll jump in bed with anyone... no place them on FabSwingers.. |
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"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ? "
Yes. However, if they win a majority in the next GE, the voters will have given them a mandate - and their consent - to revoke Article 50.
Of course, that would require two highly unlikely things to happen:
1. A GE before Brexit automatically happens on 31.10.19
2. The Liberal Democrats to win that GE outright.
Just because they're attracting a few Red Tory/Blue Labour types doesn't mean they're making a serious political comeback.
They just want to be noticed again.  |
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"I'm in Scotland today and it's interesting to read the perspective here.
Willie Rennie, the LD Scottish leader, has come in for some stick after saying they would oppose a 2nd indy ref even if pro-independence parties won a majority in the election.
So now, MPs like Angus MacNeill are floating the idea of UDI without a referendum.
I think that could backfire.
When I was growing up, it was assumed independence would be declared if the nationalists won a majority of seats at Westminster.
The wisest thing the SNP did was to adopt the referendum route.
That allowed people like me to vote for them in an election, safe in the knowledge it wasn't a vote for independence because there would be a separate ballot.
I cannot imagine them going back on that policy and doing what the Lib Dems are doing. But in 2019, anything seems possible, I guess."
UDI would be a very bad idea. I think you're right. The SNP will wait, however long, until independence is gained via a legitimate vote for it. To do otherwise would fatally undermine the country right from the first day. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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There's a lot of advertisements on the freeview television at the moment: 'get ready for brexit 31st of October' adverts.uk.gov.
seems a done deal(pardon the pun) |
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"There's a lot of advertisements on the freeview television at the moment: 'get ready for brexit 31st of October' adverts.uk.gov.
seems a done deal(pardon the pun)"
More un-needed money being wasted on Brexit. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ? "
No.
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It's yet further proof that the liberals have lost they're minds and gone completely demented since trump got elected.
Just look at that dipshit woman Dr who's trying to get elected for them in Devon talk about a car crash interview where all her real thoughts just come out in Mish mash of dementedness.
It's too white, there hate crimers, there poor, they don't travel much.
Omg |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I mean that's the real problem with North Devon... It's just not black enough!.
She knows if it was more "ethnically diverse" they wouldn't have voted leave.
That's what the libdems really think. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ? "
Not just anti-democratic - extremist. |
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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
"There are quite a few LibDem MPs currently sitting as LibDem MPs for constituencies where the LibDem candidate was defeated at the last General Election , their argument for another referendum ( which I now hope for - after initially been against ) would be stronger if these MPs had imediately held by-elections in their constituencies when they "swapped sides"
And possibly lost their seats and the Lib Dems would be back to their original number"
. The LibDems currently have 6 MPs who won their parliamentary seat at the last General Election while standing to represent another party . ( the number in brackets is the vote the LibDem candidate received in the constituency ) ,,, Sam Gyimah Con East Surrey 35310 ( 6197) ,, Phillip Lee Con Bracknell 32882 ( 4186 ) ,, Angela Smith Lab Penistone 22807 ( 2042 ) ,, Sarah Woolaston Con Totnes 26072 ( 6466 ) ,, Chukja Umuna Lab Streatham 38212 ( 3611 ) ,, Luciana Berger Lab Liverpool Wavertree 34717 ( 2858 ) |
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"Fixating on something that once happened is backwards looking, instead of keeping the focus on the present and what's next for the future. Democracy is a fluid process - the electorate changes, as do their needs and understandings as they learn; political representatives learn on our behalf too; the context of the world we're in evolves and sometimes people take decisions that shape a new direction.
A party that remains stuck will die. The governing patty's manifesto holds post election and, in any event, it was the conservative party that decided to hold the advisory referendum, taking a snapshot of opinion on that day, it was not all the others. It was advisory, not a mandatory referendum. Wanting opinion to be frozen forever is unrealistic. It helps everyone if we are willing to learn and to sustain flexibility of purpose, rather than having one static fixation. .
so if we had another referendum and voted to stay it should not count because it's just for that day... utter Tosh"
More informed than your post. |
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"There's a lot of advertisements on the freeview television at the moment: 'get ready for brexit 31st of October' adverts.uk.gov.
seems a done deal(pardon the pun)"
Yup adverts everywhere saying get ready - but they can't tell you what to fucking get ready for. What's the paperwork for no deal? No one can say because a real total no deal is the ripping up of every regulation about UK-EU interaction. So how about in the case of a deal? What's the deal going to look like, what regulations stay, what go, what change just a bit? Boris has no fucking clue what his "great deal" is going to be, it's just fairy rainbow unicorn dust. So maybe nothing changes? Well that's another few billion pounds burnt for no fucking advantage. |
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"There's a lot of advertisements on the freeview television at the moment: 'get ready for brexit 31st of October' adverts.uk.gov.
seems a done deal(pardon the pun)
Yup adverts everywhere saying get ready - but they can't tell you what to fucking get ready for. What's the paperwork for no deal? No one can say because a real total no deal is the ripping up of every regulation about UK-EU interaction. So how about in the case of a deal? What's the deal going to look like, what regulations stay, what go, what change just a bit? Boris has no fucking clue what his "great deal" is going to be, it's just fairy rainbow unicorn dust. So maybe nothing changes? Well that's another few billion pounds burnt for no fucking advantage."
Cant beat a bit of propaganda
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"There are quite a few LibDem MPs currently sitting as LibDem MPs for constituencies where the LibDem candidate was defeated at the last General Election , their argument for another referendum ( which I now hope for - after initially been against ) would be stronger if these MPs had imediately held by-elections in their constituencies when they "swapped sides"
And possibly lost their seats and the Lib Dems would be back to their original number. The LibDems currently have 6 MPs who won their parliamentary seat at the last General Election while standing to represent another party . ( the number in brackets is the vote the LibDem candidate received in the constituency ) ,,, Sam Gyimah Con East Surrey 35310 ( 6197) ,, Phillip Lee Con Bracknell 32882 ( 4186 ) ,, Angela Smith Lab Penistone 22807 ( 2042 ) ,, Sarah Woolaston Con Totnes 26072 ( 6466 ) ,, Chukja Umuna Lab Streatham 38212 ( 3611 ) ,, Luciana Berger Lab Liverpool Wavertree 34717 ( 2858 ) "
Wont win them then |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Fixating on something that once happened is backwards looking, instead of keeping the focus on the present and what's next for the future. Democracy is a fluid process - the electorate changes, as do their needs and understandings as they learn; political representatives learn on our behalf too; the context of the world we're in evolves and sometimes people take decisions that shape a new direction.
A party that remains stuck will die. The governing patty's manifesto holds post election and, in any event, it was the conservative party that decided to hold the advisory referendum, taking a snapshot of opinion on that day, it was not all the others. It was advisory, not a mandatory referendum. Wanting opinion to be frozen forever is unrealistic. It helps everyone if we are willing to learn and to sustain flexibility of purpose, rather than having one static fixation. .
so if we had another referendum and voted to stay it should not count because it's just for that day... utter Tosh
More informed than your post. "
didnt feel the need to pad it out with bollox.. |
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By *estivalMan
over a year ago
borehamwood |
dunno if there anti democratic or not do think the m.ps that they have got since after the last g.e wont be m.ps of any sort after the nxt g.e .not to clued up about the lib dems but do they now have more m.ps that wernt elected as lib dems than m.ps that were |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"dunno if there anti democratic or not do think the m.ps that they have got since after the last g.e wont be m.ps of any sort after the nxt g.e .not to clued up about the lib dems but do they now have more m.ps that wernt elected as lib dems than m.ps that were"
quite right.Most will disappear after the upcoming Gen.Election and jump ship again.There will yet be more turncoats to come..
As for the next general election... I think we can expect the unexpected.. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ?
Not just anti-democratic - extremist."
This is the bit I don't get.
You are saying that a political party that pledges to do something *if they get elected* is not 'democratic'?
I've seen this sentiment a few times related to this. What has happened to some people that has rotted their brains so much that they can't even understand even the basics of democracy any more?
No doubt if Farage went and created a single-topic party, got it illegally funded and then pledged to do something specific if they got elected you'd have no qualms at all, right?
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ?
Not just anti-democratic - extremist.
This is the bit I don't get.
You are saying that a political party that pledges to do something *if they get elected* is not 'democratic'?
I've seen this sentiment a few times related to this. What has happened to some people that has rotted their brains so much that they can't even understand even the basics of democracy any more?
No doubt if Farage went and created a single-topic party, got it illegally funded and then pledged to do something specific if they got elected you'd have no qualms at all, right?
-Matt "
..
lib dems plan to ignore 7 million peoples who were asked to decide in a democratic referendum in 2016. So Yes ...un-democratic..
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"It's yet further proof that the liberals have lost they're minds and gone completely demented since trump got elected.
Just look at that dipshit woman Dr who's trying to get elected for them in Devon talk about a car crash interview where all her real thoughts just come out in Mish mash of dementedness.
It's too white, there hate crimers, there poor, they don't travel much.
Omg "
|
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"There's a lot of advertisements on the freeview television at the moment: 'get ready for brexit 31st of October' adverts.uk.gov.
seems a done deal(pardon the pun)
Yup adverts everywhere saying get ready - but they can't tell you what to fucking get ready for. What's the paperwork for no deal? No one can say because a real total no deal is the ripping up of every regulation about UK-EU interaction. So how about in the case of a deal? What's the deal going to look like, what regulations stay, what go, what change just a bit? Boris has no fucking clue what his "great deal" is going to be, it's just fairy rainbow unicorn dust. So maybe nothing changes? Well that's another few billion pounds burnt for no fucking advantage."
The advert is just to wear people down mentally. The only relevance for Johnson and Cummings is to ram a simple message down our throats day after day “leaving on the 31st October” |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ?
Not just anti-democratic - extremist.
This is the bit I don't get.
You are saying that a political party that pledges to do something *if they get elected* is not 'democratic'?
I've seen this sentiment a few times related to this. What has happened to some people that has rotted their brains so much that they can't even understand even the basics of democracy any more?
No doubt if Farage went and created a single-topic party, got it illegally funded and then pledged to do something specific if they got elected you'd have no qualms at all, right?
-Matt ..
lib dems plan to ignore 7 million peoples who were asked to decide in a democratic referendum in 2016. So Yes ...un-democratic..
"
7 million people for what? in an advisory referendum?
Your post makes no sense |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel brexit if they come to power at the next general election. In 2016 the refurendum was democratically a vote to leave.now the Lib Dems want to cancel that.
anti-democratic ?
Not just anti-democratic - extremist.
This is the bit I don't get.
You are saying that a political party that pledges to do something *if they get elected* is not 'democratic'?
I've seen this sentiment a few times related to this. What has happened to some people that has rotted their brains so much that they can't even understand even the basics of democracy any more?
No doubt if Farage went and created a single-topic party, got it illegally funded and then pledged to do something specific if they got elected you'd have no qualms at all, right?
-Matt ..
lib dems plan to ignore 7 million peoples who were asked to decide in a democratic referendum in 2016. So Yes ...un-democratic..
"
Thank you for proving my point. What is it that happened to you to make it so that you don’t understand even the basics? How do you think have a general election and pledging to do something if elected is un democratic?
-Matt |
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"There's a lot of advertisements on the freeview television at the moment: 'get ready for brexit 31st of October' adverts.uk.gov.
seems a done deal(pardon the pun)
Yup adverts everywhere saying get ready - but they can't tell you what to fucking get ready for. What's the paperwork for no deal? No one can say because a real total no deal is the ripping up of every regulation about UK-EU interaction. So how about in the case of a deal? What's the deal going to look like, what regulations stay, what go, what change just a bit? Boris has no fucking clue what his "great deal" is going to be, it's just fairy rainbow unicorn dust. So maybe nothing changes? Well that's another few billion pounds burnt for no fucking advantage.
The advert is just to wear people down mentally. The only relevance for Johnson and Cummings is to ram a simple message down our throats day after day “leaving on the 31st October”"
That may so, however the public need to be informed. Isn’t that one of the gripes from the remainders at the moment - “the public didn’t know what they were voting for in 2016”
The gov.uk/brexit campaign is very straightforward, easy to use and on very basic terms provides information which may or may not affect you. Points you to further information on gov.uk so you can be prepared or at least be aware.
Of course if people don’t bother to look or check then they can’t say they weren’t given the information .
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
The Lib Dems a party taking money from a fraudster and hiding behind the findings of the Electoral Commission rather than do the right thing, ostracising Charles Kennedy when he was ill, welcoming a Tory MP who filibustered a bill that would have pardoned gay men for acts that were illegal at the time but are now legal
Seems that if you commit fraud, turn your back on a colleague and are homophobic then the Lib Dems will accept you with open arms. Also remember they once elected a leader who's views on gay rights were hardly liberal |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The Lib Dems a party taking money from a fraudster and hiding behind the findings of the Electoral Commission rather than do the right thing, ostracising Charles Kennedy when he was ill, welcoming a Tory MP who filibustered a bill that would have pardoned gay men for acts that were illegal at the time but are now legal
Seems that if you commit fraud, turn your back on a colleague and are homophobic then the Lib Dems will accept you with open arms. Also remember they once elected a leader who's views on gay rights were hardly liberal"
the Electoral Commission kicked the can down the road.£2.4 million given to the Liberal Democrats was from the proceeds of crime which should have been returned to the investors. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The Lib Dems a party taking money from a fraudster and hiding behind the findings of the Electoral Commission rather than do the right thing, ostracising Charles Kennedy when he was ill, welcoming a Tory MP who filibustered a bill that would have pardoned gay men for acts that were illegal at the time but are now legal
Seems that if you commit fraud, turn your back on a colleague and are homophobic then the Lib Dems will accept you with open arms. Also remember they once elected a leader who's views on gay rights were hardly liberal"
.) Who is the fraudster?
.) Hiding behind what findings?
.) Perhaps I'm showing my youth but Charles Kennedy brings nothing up in my memory.
.) The acceptance of the Tory MP is question sets a precedent for the Liberals I'm uncomfortable with. If said MP explains his view have since changed and explains the reasoning, fine. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The Lib Dems a party taking money from a fraudster and hiding behind the findings of the Electoral Commission rather than do the right thing, ostracising Charles Kennedy when he was ill, welcoming a Tory MP who filibustered a bill that would have pardoned gay men for acts that were illegal at the time but are now legal
Seems that if you commit fraud, turn your back on a colleague and are homophobic then the Lib Dems will accept you with open arms. Also remember they once elected a leader who's views on gay rights were hardly liberal
.) Who is the fraudster?
.) Hiding behind what findings?
.) Perhaps I'm showing my youth but Charles Kennedy brings nothing up in my memory.
.) The acceptance of the Tory MP is question sets a precedent for the Liberals I'm uncomfortable with. If said MP explains his view have since changed and explains the reasoning, fine."
google Michael Campbell Brown ,5th Avenue Partners Limited.stolen money donated to Liberal Democrats.. unreturned |
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If the LibDems get 325+ seats at the next general election I'll eat my hat. The reality the LibDems have as even less chance of winning 325+ seats as The BREXIT party does of winning one. If however the LibDems did actually win 325+ seats at the next General Election I think that would be a very clear indication that the people no longer want BREXIT. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The Lib Dems a party taking money from a fraudster and hiding behind the findings of the Electoral Commission rather than do the right thing, ostracising Charles Kennedy when he was ill, welcoming a Tory MP who filibustered a bill that would have pardoned gay men for acts that were illegal at the time but are now legal
Seems that if you commit fraud, turn your back on a colleague and are homophobic then the Lib Dems will accept you with open arms. Also remember they once elected a leader who's views on gay rights were hardly liberal
.) Who is the fraudster?
.) Hiding behind what findings?
.) Perhaps I'm showing my youth but Charles Kennedy brings nothing up in my memory.
.) The acceptance of the Tory MP is question sets a precedent for the Liberals I'm uncomfortable with. If said MP explains his view have since changed and explains the reasoning, fine."
Charles Kennedy was a former Lib Dem leader who when alive had more integrity in his little finger than the current leader and some of other previous leaders. When he was ill (alcoholism) his former colleagues and the party turned on him and cut him adrift |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"If the LibDems get 325+ seats at the next general election I'll eat my hat. The reality the LibDems have as even less chance of winning 325+ seats as The BREXIT party does of winning one. If however the LibDems did actually win 325+ seats at the next General Election I think that would be a very clear indication that the people no longer want BREXIT."
If they get that many seats heaven help the rest of us. They will give the Tories a close run for title of nasty party. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If the libdems get in all we need to remember is we don't consent to there democratic election, it was the Russians, everybody who voted for them was mentally ill, there all over educted middle class nerds who've never had sex and then DEMAND a second vote, then a third and a court case and an enquiry, then get the media to back us to the hilt with rubbish that nobody knew the liberals meant cancelling cancelling and that we only thought they meant sort of cancelling with a deal about cancelling that we cancel in an orderly fashion that suits all the voters bearing in mind that 48% didn't vote libtards because we thought they were bonkers to begin with. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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There is definitely going to be a Lib Dem surge .How much is debatable.
It will be enough to make them king makers in a remain/second referendum alliance .
The rebel alliance has momentum. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Could their plan be to gain enough seats in the house of commons that any party seeking to make a coalition government would have to turn to the Lib Dems, ensuring at least a second referendum for their support. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Could their plan be to gain enough seats in the house of commons that any party seeking to make a coalition government would have to turn to the Lib Dems, ensuring at least a second referendum for their support."
Just remember the last time they were in coalition and the cuts they supported and the measures they helped bring in. They do not care for the electorate they are interested in nothing but power and lording it over everyone else. And their leader is me, me, me and to hell with everyone else. Look at her voting record. Siding with the Tories at every opportunity. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"The brain washing has begun from Cummings..
Luckily it’s only going to work on Brexit drones .
"
If there is one thing we've learnt, is that George Carlin's quote "never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers" is even more true these days.
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Could their plan be to gain enough seats in the house of commons that any party seeking to make a coalition government would have to turn to the Lib Dems, ensuring at least a second referendum for their support."
They’ll make an alliance with anyone who guarantees a second referendum.Which will be the inevitable SNP/Labour/Green and Lib Dem alliance. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Could their plan be to gain enough seats in the house of commons that any party seeking to make a coalition government would have to turn to the Lib Dems, ensuring at least a second referendum for their support.
They’ll make an alliance with anyone who guarantees a second referendum.Which will be the inevitable SNP/Labour/Green and Lib Dem alliance. "
She has said that she will not support Labour or the Tories so a Lib Dem/Plaid Cymru/SNP/Green/Independent alliance wont give her the numbers |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No, the referendum was not binding. This means it is democratic to ignore it.
It's a bit depressing how people do not even know how a referendum or democracy is supposed to work, how without balance and checks its worthless. What makes a vote binding and what invalidates it.
Cameron said during campaigning that whatever the result it would be honoured (that bit him and Westminster on the backside)"
Maybe he was lying,  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Could their plan be to gain enough seats in the house of commons that any party seeking to make a coalition government would have to turn to the Lib Dems, ensuring at least a second referendum for their support.
They’ll make an alliance with anyone who guarantees a second referendum.Which will be the inevitable SNP/Labour/Green and Lib Dem alliance.
She has said that she will not support Labour or the Tories so a Lib Dem/Plaid Cymru/SNP/Green/Independent alliance wont give her the numbers"
She said she wont support Corbyn or Boris .They always leave wriggle room.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Take it all with a pinch of salt.
Swinson is going for the soft Tory vote.
If Johnson is correct, Article 50 will be dead by the time of any General Election.
So they'll need to dump this policy and find a new one.
Which makes this a stunt to grab some headlines, nothing more. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
Some of the smarter Labour supporters are finally waking up to the fact that it is pointless at this time to be bringing up historical grievances about the Lib Dems and is in fact the perfect excuse to energise Labour to vote on something much more progressive at the upcoming conference.
What the Lib Dem’s have done is being seen in one of two ways by Labour activists. Either it is a proactive and affirmative anti-Brexit stance that has to be countered by something equally affirmative and progressive by Labour, or the mindless element projecting a kind of Project Fear about the Lib Dem’s because they know that moderate Labour supporters will shift to the Lib Dem’s.
The Lib Dem’s have thrown down the gauntlet. Labour need to react and we all know what happens when you rely solely on scaremongering. |
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I'm quite happy with Labour stay exactly where they are on BREXIT. It makes the choice simple. If you want to Remain vote LibDem, if you want to Leave either with or without a deal vote BREXIT, Conservative or Labour.
I personally have no problem with the LibDems having gone into coalition with the Conservatives in 2010 and would have no problems with them going in to a coalition with either Labour or the Conservatives again (but not with Corbyn or B. Johnson as leader) either at the next General Election or at some time in the future if either party is willing to moderate their policies enough to make such a coalition possible.
The reality is is that some people have voted LibDem to try and keep the Tories out, others have voted LibDem to try and keep Labour out and others (now a growing number) have voted LibDem because they actually like the LibDems.
If you're in either of the first two groups and voted LibDem to keep either the Conservatives or Labour out and, like in 2010, we end up in a hung parliament then you have achieved the result you wanted. However you also must have known when you voted LibDem that in a hung parliament they said they would be willing to form a coalition or alliance with either the Conservatives or Labour and moderate the policies. That's exactly what they did.
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
a lot of people do criticise the Lib Dems for what they did in coalition... so i went and had a look today at what policies they had in there manifesto in 2010, and which policies they got into the 2010 coalition agreement....
and the answer is..... actually..... a lot!
so when you said they did "nothing" remember a few of these.....
single person tax allowance raised up to 12500....
shared parental leave......
same sex marriage.....
the pupil premium for schools...
the "triple lock" on state pension increases......
banking reform (splitting high street banks from investment banks)....
nursery places for all 3 and 4 yr olds....
cutting maximum detention without charge to 14 days......
stopping a permenent DNA database for those people who have done nothing wrong...
the setting up of the green investment bank.....
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
It's certainly an interesting point as it could be argued that they are being undemocratic in their position on brexit, however, as revoking article 50 is the policy that they intend to contest a general election on, you could argue that, if they were to secure a majority (ok, stop laughing) then it would be entirely democratic for them to do so. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
The lim dem members had a recent you.gov survey.
.Are you centre ground..to the left or to the right.?.
The majority stated in the survey..they are to the left....
Centre ground party No more. |
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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago
south west , continental |
Whether or not they are undemocratic, they have flip flopped a lot on issues to garner votes, particularly Ms Swinson, the extinction rebellion activist who accepted £14,000 from 'frackers'.
What a vote winning policy though, all those European Union Empire patriots in the bag already, that will be 16 million plus at the next election! Pure genius! |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"What gets me is ....if my local mp jumps ship to another party ...how come there is not an automatic local election ....baffled...why it's not the right thing to do"
Because they are now liberals and they dont believe in democracy,i do think its now time to change the rules as so many are doing it.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'm quite happy with Labour stay exactly where they are on BREXIT. It makes the choice simple. If you want to Remain vote LibDem, if you want to Leave either with or without a deal vote BREXIT, Conservative or Labour.
I personally have no problem with the LibDems having gone into coalition with the Conservatives in 2010 and would have no problems with them going in to a coalition with either Labour or the Conservatives again (but not with Corbyn or B. Johnson as leader) either at the next General Election or at some time in the future if either party is willing to moderate their policies enough to make such a coalition possible.
The reality is is that some people have voted LibDem to try and keep the Tories out, others have voted LibDem to try and keep Labour out and others (now a growing number) have voted LibDem because they actually like the LibDems.
If you're in either of the first two groups and voted LibDem to keep either the Conservatives or Labour out and, like in 2010, we end up in a hung parliament then you have achieved the result you wanted. However you also must have known when you voted LibDem that in a hung parliament they said they would be willing to form a coalition or alliance with either the Conservatives or Labour and moderate the policies. That's exactly what they did.
"
I will be voting Lib Dem’s because they wiped out the conservatives here in the local elections.It will be repeated at the GE.
I will go back to voting green after Brexit.
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"What gets me is ....if my local mp jumps ship to another party ...how come there is not an automatic local election ....baffled...why it's not the right thing to doBecause they are now liberals and they dont believe in democracy,i do think its now time to change the rules as so many are doing it."
An MP's first duty is to their constituents not their political party. Political parties already have far too much power in our political systems and making MPs legally answerable to their parties before their constituents would be a further step in completely the wrong direction.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"What gets me is ....if my local mp jumps ship to another party ...how come there is not an automatic local election ....baffled...why it's not the right thing to do"
Yes, Farage and his chums had a damned cheek holding onto their seats after quitting UKIP, didn't they? |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
So the "anti-democratic" party have now overtaken Labour in the polls and are a solid 2nd. (YouGov Times 19/09).
It is quite baffling though why Johnson and the Conservatives still have a ten-point lead and this perhaps reflects that ordinary people still believe that old Etonians know what is best for them. It is mind-boggling that anyone other than very wealthy people can support old Etonian politics and it probably suggests that Brexit is the issue that many people still think will change their lives.
I suppose in a way it is true - but just in a polar opposite way than they expect lol. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What gets me is ....if my local mp jumps ship to another party ...how come there is not an automatic local election ....baffled...why it's not the right thing to do"
I agree, that does take the mick somewhat |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"What gets me is ....if my local mp jumps ship to another party ...how come there is not an automatic local election ....baffled...why it's not the right thing to do
I agree, that does take the mick somewhat "
Needs Parliament to change it. My constituency recently has had two MPs change sides without any recourse. |
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"Yes. As Brexit was voted for through a referendum then it should only be revoked through another referendum. Making revokation a General Election manifesto promise means that all their other manifesto promises will be ignored. Remember their last promise "no student tuition fee cuts". Beware the promises of the Lib Dem’s. "
It’s not really the same though is it?
Might also be worth looking up “advisory”. Last time I checked not taking someone’s advice wasn’t really the same as breaking a promise.
And it’s hardly undemocratic, as they are merely putting it forward as an option for people to vote for in a democratic election.
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"a lot of people do criticise the Lib Dems for what they did in coalition... so i went and had a look today at what policies they had in there manifesto in 2010, and which policies they got into the 2010 coalition agreement....
and the answer is..... actually..... a lot!
so when you said they did "nothing" remember a few of these.....
single person tax allowance raised up to 12500....
shared parental leave......
same sex marriage.....
the pupil premium for schools...
the "triple lock" on state pension increases......
banking reform (splitting high street banks from investment banks)....
nursery places for all 3 and 4 yr olds....
cutting maximum detention without charge to 14 days......
stopping a permenent DNA database for those people who have done nothing wrong...
the setting up of the green investment bank.....
"
Yes, but apart from that, what have the Romans ever done for us? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"What gets me is ....if my local mp jumps ship to another party ...how come there is not an automatic local election ....baffled...why it's not the right thing to doBecause they are now liberals and they dont believe in democracy,i do think its now time to change the rules as so many are doing it.
An MP's first duty is to their constituents not their political party. Political parties already have far too much power in our political systems and making MPs legally answerable to their parties before their constituents would be a further step in completely the wrong direction.
"
It becomes a circular argument.
Do electors vote for the party or the individual?
If it is the party, then the party needs to replace an MP who defects.
If it is the individual, the individual can change parties as often as their clothes.
I'd say at a constituency level, we elect an individual.
We do not get to elect a PM or a Government - that is down to MPs and that is where there affiliation becomes relevant.
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"a lot of people do criticise the Lib Dems for what they did in coalition... so i went and had a look today at what policies they had in there manifesto in 2010, and which policies they got into the 2010 coalition agreement....
and the answer is..... actually..... a lot!
so when you said they did "nothing" remember a few of these.....
single person tax allowance raised up to 12500....
shared parental leave......
same sex marriage.....
the pupil premium for schools...
the "triple lock" on state pension increases......
banking reform (splitting high street banks from investment banks)....
nursery places for all 3 and 4 yr olds....
cutting maximum detention without charge to 14 days......
stopping a permenent DNA database for those people who have done nothing wrong...
the setting up of the green investment bank.....
Yes, but apart from that, what have the Romans ever done for us? "
Just looking at the first one... The last year of the Tory / LibDem coalition the PTA was £10,000, not £12,500. It has since increased to £12,500 this year. Hardly a LibDem achievement then.
How did they do with their flagship manifesto pledge of scrapping student fees? |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"What gets me is ....if my local mp jumps ship to another party ...how come there is not an automatic local election ....baffled...why it's not the right thing to doBecause they are now liberals and they dont believe in democracy,i do think its now time to change the rules as so many are doing it.
An MP's first duty is to their constituents not their political party. Political parties already have far too much power in our political systems and making MPs legally answerable to their parties before their constituents would be a further step in completely the wrong direction.
"
If thats the case why have so many mps in leave constituencies done everything to remain? i agree with you so think any mp going against the people who voted them in should run again. |
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"What gets me is ....if my local mp jumps ship to another party ...how come there is not an automatic local election ....baffled...why it's not the right thing to doBecause they are now liberals and they dont believe in democracy,i do think its now time to change the rules as so many are doing it.
An MP's first duty is to their constituents not their political party. Political parties already have far too much power in our political systems and making MPs legally answerable to their parties before their constituents would be a further step in completely the wrong direction.
If thats the case why have so many mps in leave constituencies done everything to remain? i agree with you so think any mp going against the people who voted them in should run again."
Giving all the benefit of the doubt, I guess it's the same reason MPs like Mogg, from a strong Remain constituency, is strongly backing Leave. Maybe they all believe that they are doing their legal duty and backing what they believe to be in the best interests of the country and their constituents. And that's what they're ment to do too. An MP is not a delegate.
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"What gets me is ....if my local mp jumps ship to another party ...how come there is not an automatic local election ....baffled...why it's not the right thing to doBecause they are now liberals and they dont believe in democracy,i do think its now time to change the rules as so many are doing it.
An MP's first duty is to their constituents not their political party. Political parties already have far too much power in our political systems and making MPs legally answerable to their parties before their constituents would be a further step in completely the wrong direction.
If thats the case why have so many mps in leave constituencies done everything to remain? i agree with you so think any mp going against the people who voted them in should run again.
Giving all the benefit of the doubt, I guess it's the same reason MPs like Mogg, from a strong Remain constituency, is strongly backing Leave. Maybe they all believe that they are doing their legal duty and backing what they believe to be in the best interests of the country and their constituents. And that's what they're ment to do too. An MP is not a delegate.
"
Get your facts right somerset north east voted to leave 52.1% remain 47.9% |
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"What gets me is ....if my local mp jumps ship to another party ...how come there is not an automatic local election ....baffled...why it's not the right thing to doBecause they are now liberals and they dont believe in democracy,i do think its now time to change the rules as so many are doing it.
An MP's first duty is to their constituents not their political party. Political parties already have far too much power in our political systems and making MPs legally answerable to their parties before their constituents would be a further step in completely the wrong direction.
If thats the case why have so many mps in leave constituencies done everything to remain? i agree with you so think any mp going against the people who voted them in should run again.
Giving all the benefit of the doubt, I guess it's the same reason MPs like Mogg, from a strong Remain constituency, is strongly backing Leave. Maybe they all believe that they are doing their legal duty and backing what they believe to be in the best interests of the country and their constituents. And that's what they're ment to do too. An MP is not a delegate.
"
Given everything, it’s beyond believable that someone like Rees-Mogg is backing what he believes are the best interests of the country. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"So the "anti-democratic" party have now overtaken Labour in the polls and are a solid 2nd. (YouGov Times 19/09).
It is quite baffling though why Johnson and the Conservatives still have a ten-point lead and this perhaps reflects that ordinary people still believe that old Etonians know what is best for them. It is mind-boggling that anyone other than very wealthy people can support old Etonian politics and it probably suggests that Brexit is the issue that many people still think will change their lives.
I suppose in a way it is true - but just in a polar opposite way than they expect lol."
A 10 point lead is easy to explain. (A) They want Brexit delivered and they believe Boris can, (B) they trust Boris more than Corbyn or Swinson |
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"So the "anti-democratic" party have now overtaken Labour in the polls and are a solid 2nd. (YouGov Times 19/09).
It is quite baffling though why Johnson and the Conservatives still have a ten-point lead and this perhaps reflects that ordinary people still believe that old Etonians know what is best for them. It is mind-boggling that anyone other than very wealthy people can support old Etonian politics and it probably suggests that Brexit is the issue that many people still think will change their lives.
I suppose in a way it is true - but just in a polar opposite way than they expect lol.
A 10 point lead is easy to explain. (A) They want Brexit delivered and they believe Boris can, (B) they trust Boris more than Corbyn or Swinson"
That still doesn’t explain exactly why people trust a known liar and general cockwomble like Boris Johnson (and Rees-Mogg) who over Corbyn or Swinson. That they think for a second that they have their interests at heart is unfathomable.
And given how well documented it is that the Leave campaign spouted so much utter BS, and how damaging leaving will be, especially without a deal, it’s a mystery why so many people remain hellbent on leaving anyway. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind. |
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Corbyn will never tempt anyone who isn't an IRA sympathiser to vote for him. Also if you voted Leave, but also usually vote labour, you'll be put off by any future coalition with the leave supporting lib dems. |
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Even the working class like money, they like to keep their money. The perception of Corbyn and the lib dems is that they want to give their money away. Whereas the Tories wanna be rich! Well, doesn't everyone?! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Even the working class like money, they like to keep their money. The perception of Corbyn and the lib dems is that they want to give their money away. Whereas the Tories wanna be rich! Well, doesn't everyone?!"
..
.Dalai Lama ? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Corbyn will never tempt anyone who isn't an IRA sympathiser to vote for him. Also if you voted Leave, but also usually vote labour, you'll be put off by any future coalition with the leave supporting lib dems. "
yes it's a right mess.
I can't help thinking a different Labour leader would have been a big game changer.. |
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"Corbyn will never tempt anyone who isn't an IRA sympathiser to vote for him. Also if you voted Leave, but also usually vote labour, you'll be put off by any future coalition with the leave supporting lib dems.
yes it's a right mess.
I can't help thinking a different Labour leader would have been a big game changer.."
It would be nice to have a labour leader who'd actually worked for a living.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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What a complete mess, the political elite should hang their heads in shame, making the UK look like a bunch of fools, the lib dems, practice sixth form polotics, who can take them seriously? |
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"What a complete mess, the political elite should hang their heads in shame, making the UK look like a bunch of fools, the lib dems, practice sixth form polotics, who can take them seriously? "
She's got big tits though |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"What a complete mess, the political elite should hang their heads in shame, making the UK look like a bunch of fools, the lib dems, practice sixth form polotics, who can take them seriously?
She's got big tits though "
so have the Tories! |
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"What a complete mess, the political elite should hang their heads in shame, making the UK look like a bunch of fools, the lib dems, practice sixth form polotics, who can take them seriously?
She's got big tits though
so have the Tories! "
Id like to fuck the Tories in a different way..  |
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"What gets me is ....if my local mp jumps ship to another party ...how come there is not an automatic local election ....baffled...why it's not the right thing to doBecause they are now liberals and they dont believe in democracy,i do think its now time to change the rules as so many are doing it.
An MP's first duty is to their constituents not their political party. Political parties already have far too much power in our political systems and making MPs legally answerable to their parties before their constituents would be a further step in completely the wrong direction.
If thats the case why have so many mps in leave constituencies done everything to remain? i agree with you so think any mp going against the people who voted them in should run again.
Giving all the benefit of the doubt, I guess it's the same reason MPs like Mogg, from a strong Remain constituency, is strongly backing Leave. Maybe they all believe that they are doing their legal duty and backing what they believe to be in the best interests of the country and their constituents. And that's what they're ment to do too. An MP is not a delegate.
Get your facts right somerset north east voted to leave 52.1% remain 47.9%"
Not according to this report.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36617318
Where did you get your figures from?
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"What a complete mess, the political elite should hang their heads in shame, making the UK look like a bunch of fools, the lib dems, practice sixth form polotics, who can take them seriously?
Me"
If you've followed politics in last 3 years, taking seriously any party would be illogical..take with a pinch of salt anything they say..the moment they enter politics. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So the "anti-democratic" party have now overtaken Labour in the polls and are a solid 2nd. (YouGov Times 19/09).
It is quite baffling though why Johnson and the Conservatives still have a ten-point lead and this perhaps reflects that ordinary people still believe that old Etonians know what is best for them. It is mind-boggling that anyone other than very wealthy people can support old Etonian politics and it probably suggests that Brexit is the issue that many people still think will change their lives.
I suppose in a way it is true - but just in a polar opposite way than they expect lol.
A 10 point lead is easy to explain. (A) They want Brexit delivered and they believe Boris can, (B) they trust Boris more than Corbyn or Swinson
That still doesn’t explain exactly why people trust a known liar and general cockwomble like Boris Johnson (and Rees-Mogg) who over Corbyn or Swinson. That they think for a second that they have their interests at heart is unfathomable.
And given how well documented it is that the Leave campaign spouted so much utter BS, and how damaging leaving will be, especially without a deal, it’s a mystery why so many people remain hellbent on leaving anyway. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind."
I dont support neither of the 3 parties all I can assume is that they trust Boris over Corbyn who has a backbencher voted against his own party on nearly all issues and Swinson's pro Tory voting history speaks for itself. Why trust a lying plastic Tory when you can trust a lying real Tory.
As for those still intent on leaving, they all have their own reasons. I voted remain but accept the referendum decision but have lost faith in MPs who can't or won't agree on a divorce package |
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