FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Why are people obsessed with a GE to settle brexit?
Why are people obsessed with a GE to settle brexit?
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"It's clear that brexit will just get thrown in with uncosted manifesto pledges. Effectively a bidding/bribe war to try and maximise votes from the public. Am I the only one who is sat here and thinking the second referendum is now clearly the best option, then we can have a GE on domestic issues. Have the referendum be legally binding, the wording and options proposed have to be ratified by the electoral commission and legal experts. Consult the law upon what conventions to follow to set as the threshold to say that there is a majority. Then ensure that parties have to respect the result and work to implement it if they wish to take part in the following GE. I think leave would still win. But even I'm getting tired of arguing which mandate is legitimate. The referendum result from 3 years ago, under a different government, or the 2017 GE result under, again, a different government." I tend to agree that the only simple solution is to have a second legally binding referendum, if only to cut through the circular arguments of both leavers and remainers and draw a line under this shit show. Of course that’s supposing that anyone can decide what the questions should be! Perhaps a royal commission would have been the best choice in order to restrain the tribalism we face and to give us a third party non-political option? Cameron really was a bit thick wasnt he!  | |||
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"Cameron really was a bit thick wasnt he! "No. Cameron pulled a genius move. After dropping us all in the shit, he fucked off to a foreign beach holiday with a guaranteed income for life! Bastard! | |||
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" It takes quite a while to get a referendum organised. " A minimum of six months, according to the Electoral Commission, from the decision to hold one to the day of the ballot. | |||
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" It takes quite a while to get a referendum organised. A minimum of six months, according to the Electoral Commission, from the decision to hold one to the day of the ballot. " That is clearly poppycock! If it were true it would take 6 months to organise every general election, and clearly it doesn't. In reality it could be done in 3 weeks (just like general elections). As for the how: We may need 2 (legally binding) votes, the first a simple in/out vote based on what we now know, the second a deal/no deal vote again based on what we know. As for the legislation, I expect a single or 2 page bill is all that is needed. Of course it would need a 3rd clause making it a criminal act punishable by life in prison (without possibility of release or pardon) and forfeiture of all property for knowing disseminating falsehoods or hiding information regarding the cost of leaving the EU both with and without a deal. But there is not the political will to do this. | |||
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"Different electoral roll. Different count. Different registration of official groups. Different spending rules. " Excuses to justify not going through another referendum. And just explain how piling ballots into 4 piles, in and out, deal and no deal, then counting counting them differs from the counts we have now? In fact I would say 2 binary counts would be much easier than the normal election with multiple candidates on a ballot. And why does a different electoral roll take 6 months to do? After all in a normal election it is opened for later registration and is done in days. | |||
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"A referendum can only solve a Brexit question A General Election can only sort out the policy of Governance for day to day issues Merging the two creates a bloody mess " exactly which is why it annoys me when people use stats like 80% of people voted in the last GE for "Brexit" parties. I voted for a "Brexit" party. Do I want Brexit? Absolutely not. If there was another General Election I would vote for an "On the fence" party. Why? Because my seat is Labour and at risk from the SNP. What's my options? Certainly not Lib Dems! A General Election could easily result in a hung parliament where the Tories couldn't find a majority and Lib Dems wouldn't help Corbyn form a Government. Brexit can only be solved by a referendum. | |||
"I'm going to play devil's advocate here. It takes quite a while to get a referendum organised. Firstly, parliament needs to pass a law to hold one. We are currently due to exit the EU on 31st October. 'But parliament has passed it's anti no deal law, forcing Boris to ask the EU for an extension' I hear you all cry Indeed, but the EU aren't REQUIRED to grant such an extension, and when they gave the last one, they specifically told us not to waste the time. How much time since April has parliament actually spent in dealing with matters Brexit? Not much. We had an Easter Recess, a Whitsun recess and a 6 week summer recess. The conservatives had their leadership contest and now parliament is prorogued - and if it wasn't, they'd all be heading into recess for their precious conferences. I will grant you, however, that exceptional circumstances that may persuade them to grant such an extension would be either a general election or a referendum, though I would not be surprised if the EU might be beginning to lose patience, as are most of the UK electorate, with the lack of progress our parliament is making. It seems that parliament, or at least those in opposition parties, intend to sit on their hands (despite their protestations over prorogation) until AFTER 31st October so that they can use the PM's failure to deliver on his promise to get us out on that date to damage the conservatives at an inevitable General election. I am of the opinion that this will massively backfire on them all, as we are all aware that parliament has deliberately brought in legislation that will hamper the PM's ability to get any movement from the EU and it is those remainer MP's who are preventing him from delivering on brexit. With this in mind, at the point at which the Prime Minister is FORCED, by the recently introduced law, to ask the EU for a further extension, he will be unable to cite a general election or a referendum as justification for such an extension (especially as the wording of his letter has been specifically defined by legislation) as parliament has agreed to neither. So, let's just say, for the sake of argument, that the PM asks for an extension and the EU is of the opinion that any such extension will, as with the last two, will not result in any further progress, they may decide to refuse to grant one. And remember that it takes just one member state to veto such a request for it to be denied. We can not automatically assume that an extension will be granted. " In my view the EU will grant an extension to stop a hard boarder in Ireland whilst the UK perhaps sorts it’s shit out. The fact parliamentary arithmetic has changed since the purge of the remainer Tory MPs, which is a factor too. | |||
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" In my view the EU will grant an extension to stop a hard boarder in Ireland whilst the UK perhaps sorts it’s shit out. The fact parliamentary arithmetic has changed since the purge of the remainer Tory MPs, which is a factor too. " But Boris has a major minority government now and not all the MP's that he sacked we're remainers either. | |||
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" In my view the EU will grant an extension to stop a hard boarder in Ireland whilst the UK perhaps sorts it’s shit out. The fact parliamentary arithmetic has changed since the purge of the remainer Tory MPs, which is a factor too. But Boris has a major minority government now and not all the MP's that he sacked we're remainers either. " .. what's a major minority government ! | |||
"It's clear that brexit will just get thrown in with uncosted manifesto pledges. Effectively a bidding/bribe war to try and maximise votes from the public. Am I the only one who is sat here and thinking the second referendum is now clearly the best option, then we can have a GE on domestic issues. Have the referendum be legally binding, the wording and options proposed have to be ratified by the electoral commission and legal experts. Consult the law upon what conventions to follow to set as the threshold to say that there is a majority. Then ensure that parties have to respect the result and work to implement it if they wish to take part in the following GE. I think leave would still win. But even I'm getting tired of arguing which mandate is legitimate. The referendum result from 3 years ago, under a different government, or the 2017 GE result under, again, a different government. I tend to agree that the only simple solution is to have a second legally binding referendum, if only to cut through the circular arguments of both leavers and remainers and draw a line under this shit show. Of course that’s supposing that anyone can decide what the questions should be! Perhaps a royal commission would have been the best choice in order to restrain the tribalism we face and to give us a third party non-political option? Cameron really was a bit thick wasnt he! "But on what basis would the result be legally binding? What I mean is this- Would there be a requirement for a minimum turnout to make it binding? What would that turnout be? Then what would be the requirement for the percentage of people voting be to make the result binding? What would the requirement for the proportion of the electorate be? And finally, what would be the start point? Leavers would say the start point should be "we are leaving, so the vote should be whether to change that", whereas as remainers would say " we are still members of the EU, so the vote should be whether to change that". | |||
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"The main problem that the remain camp will have in another referendum is if they intend to use the project fear strategy the used in the 2016 , it has now been blown out of the water and shown to be tame and no where near as scary as the leavers very own yellowhammer report "
The Express labeled Yellowhammer as project fear. It's unbelievable.
Anyone who still thinks that Brexit is a good idea is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.
But likely will all vote for it again. I would guess that nothing has been learned. | |||
"The main problem that the remain camp will have in another referendum is if they intend to use the project fear strategy the used in the 2016 , it has now been blown out of the water and shown to be tame and no where near as scary as the leavers very own yellowhammer report
The Express labeled Yellowhammer as project fear. It's unbelievable.
Anyone who still thinks that Brexit is a good idea is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.
But likely will all vote for it again. I would guess that nothing has been learned."Must really piss you off being surrounded by so many people who don’t have a clue and won’t even try to learn differently. How do you cope? | |||
"Different electoral roll. Different count. Different registration of official groups. Different spending rules. Excuses to justify not going through another referendum. And just explain how piling ballots into 4 piles, in and out, deal and no deal, then counting counting them differs from the counts we have now? In fact I would say 2 binary counts would be much easier than the normal election with multiple candidates on a ballot. And why does a different electoral roll take 6 months to do? After all in a normal election it is opened for later registration and is done in days. " This is what the Electoral Commission states. | |||
"I totally agree. Johnson (and May before him) have been unable to get consensus in the House or in the Conservative Party and similarly Corbyn cannot get consensus in the Labour Party. These things won’t change with a General Election and in fact there is a very real danger of the really important issues like NHS, taxation and all the critical domestic and foreign policy issues that a GE is supposed to focus on actually getting lost because of the single issue that is winding everybody up. If there was a way to take Brexit out of Party politics then yes, let’s have an election. Get ready for another election in two years (or less) if the GE is Brexit dominated. It is madness not to recognise that Brexit is the underlying symptom of the current divisions (chasms even) in society and that needs to be dealt with as a stand-alone issue for the country can start to think about the next five years and the other really important matters."  | |||
"A referendum and a separate general election would be appropriate. The current Article 50 should be cancelled as there is realistically insufficient time to achieve negotiations and implement alternative outcomes. Cancelling Article 50 would require a confident leadership but the UK needs this more than ever. If the second referendum gets a clearer result to finalise leaving, whichever party is in government should then only continue by including all parties through the stages towards leaving. Last time they didn't and the results showed that division, on top of political division. It would need pre!agreed facts, to prevent campaign lies, as well as definite and clearer separation between the 2 choices. UK politicians are typically weak in their frequent refrain from leadership - many of them using an arrogant bully's style instead. Collaborative working helps to lead. We've got a few weeks to create a new option and be ready? And for this to truly be the best for the UK? Fantasy. Learn from the experience and move on. But this time, have a plan - unlike the last 3 conservative leaders have not had. " The big problem is now that parliament is so divided it is incapable of dealing with all these issues,collective responsibility has gone out the window. | |||
"A referendum and a separate general election would be appropriate. The current Article 50 should be cancelled as there is realistically insufficient time to achieve negotiations and implement alternative outcomes. Cancelling Article 50 would require a confident leadership but the UK needs this more than ever. If the second referendum gets a clearer result to finalise leaving, whichever party is in government should then only continue by including all parties through the stages towards leaving. Last time they didn't and the results showed that division, on top of political division. It would need pre!agreed facts, to prevent campaign lies, as well as definite and clearer separation between the 2 choices. UK politicians are typically weak in their frequent refrain from leadership - many of them using an arrogant bully's style instead. Collaborative working helps to lead. We've got a few weeks to create a new option and be ready? And for this to truly be the best for the UK? Fantasy. Learn from the experience and move on. But this time, have a plan - unlike the last 3 conservative leaders have not had. The big problem is now that parliament is so divided it is incapable of dealing with all these issues,collective responsibility has gone out the window." Unusually for me but I do agree with you for once. Parliament is hopelessly divided, the government has no working majority and the political parties have no idea what to do next. The only option that is pragmatic is to cancel the whole thing, with the promise to hold a second referendum after a royal commission has worked out what questions should be asked and has come up with an exit strategy. I know all the leavers will see this as undemocratic but as I strongly believe that we were lied to about the EU by the Brexiteers and therefore they effectively cheated the democratic process and won by foul means then it seems only fair to cancel the referendum and hold another with more considered and honest facts. Also on a final note, if Brexiteers think that this would be undemocratic I would love to know why legally it would be?  | |||
"The main problem that the remain camp will have in another referendum is if they intend to use the project fear strategy the used in the 2016 , it has now been blown out of the water and shown to be tame and no where near as scary as the leavers very own yellowhammer report
The Express labeled Yellowhammer as project fear. It's unbelievable.
Anyone who still thinks that Brexit is a good idea is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.
But likely will all vote for it again. I would guess that nothing has been learned.
Must really piss you off being surrounded by so many people who don’t have a clue and won’t even try to learn differently.
How do you cope?"Only when they drag the entire nation down. | |||
