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Gordon Brown- the UK is sleepwalking into oblivion
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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In the Observer today. Available online.
I’ve had issues with him on a professional lever (never a personal level, though, as he is mannered, shy and learned many areas) but I agree wholeheartedly with his piece today.
It’s actually encouraging to read something by a politician that’s both true and social. Were there more in that vein, the UK would indeed be Great...... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In the Observer today. Available online.
I’ve had issues with him on a professional lever (never a personal level, though, as he is mannered, shy and learned many areas) but I agree wholeheartedly with his piece today.
It’s actually encouraging to read something by a politician that’s both true and social. Were there more in that vein, the UK would indeed be Great......"
Is it a new swingers club?
Seriously though it's unchartered territory. I don't personally like the idea of a trade deal with the usa. I also don't think the the quality of mps are good enough to run an independent nation |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
It is the unknown but do is life,and facing it with fear is not good.Feel nervous as I do but if we pull together it will,I am sure in times of crisis we Brits will work it out.
I cannot see anyone wanting it to fail once we leave as they will be here in or out of the EU.
Yes some say we will move abroad,Fine but your a small percentage,we have to deal with it weather we agree or not.Nobody agrees to get cancer but somehow they deal with it and survive it.In comparison Brexit is nothing,be healthy,if we have our health we have the world |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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That’s the irony, as seen by the tv programme interviewing English abroad in the EU who voted to leave believing it’d stop immigration- they now will have no residence rights in the EU-
With a UK passport, unless you fulfil the strict settlement rules, including age-based ones of other countries, you in the UK are stuck right there- in the UK.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
He has been saying this for a while.
He understands how Scotland is moving inexorably towards a Yes vote because he lives and breathes it in Fife.
He is a unionist. He wants the rest of the UK to make informed choices, to know the consequences of the course we are on.
If you think dissolution of the EU/UK union is difficult after 50 years, it's a tea party compared to dissolution of the 1707 Act of Union.
He is right to speak out. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
North Queensferry. Big broonie lives almost underneath the Forth Bridge (rail).
I know he went down as PM - he was always a better No 2 - but people in Scotland, the old Labour vote, listen when he speaks.
When Cameron agreed to the 2014 referendum, he insisted Brown must not be part of the No campaign.
Brown respected that. Then the needle moved to 51%, Cameron panicked and Brown stepped into the debate.
His "Vow" speech is generally considered to have reversed the flow of Labour votes to the cause of Yes.
He saved the Union once before. He's warning he won't be able to do it again.
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"It is the unknown but do is life,and facing it with fear is not good.Feel nervous as I do but if we pull together it will,I am sure in times of crisis we Brits will work it out.
I cannot see anyone wanting it to fail once we leave as they will be here in or out of the EU.
Yes some say we will move abroad,Fine but your a small percentage,we have to deal with it weather we agree or not.Nobody agrees to get cancer but somehow they deal with it and survive it.In comparison Brexit is nothing,be healthy,if we have our health we have the world"
Pull together
Crisis
Work it out
Deal with it
Survive
And for what exactly??? To be poorer as a country because of some misconception that we are controlled by an unelected and undemocratic EU.
You really do need to grasp the reality of this situation...
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
It'll be a nightmare.
So many shared institutions.
My biggest worry is how populists in England manipulate it.
The further England lurches to the right, the higher the Yes vote goes.
And once it goes Yes, the right in England will be on the march.
George Robertson called it the Balkanisation of Britain.
Whether their target is Scots or the ethnic minorities in England, I do not know. But I can guarantee you some populist will find someone to blame.
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"It'll be a nightmare.
So many shared institutions.
My biggest worry is how populists in England manipulate it.
The further England lurches to the right, the higher the Yes vote goes.
And once it goes Yes, the right in England will be on the march.
George Robertson called it the Balkanisation of Britain.
Whether their target is Scots or the ethnic minorities in England, I do not know. But I can guarantee you some populist will find someone to blame.
"
Personally i think its just another scare story to try and justify not leaving the eu.Jimmy cranky wants to go down in history as the person who took scotland out of the union its nothing to do with the eu after all salmon tried before it was mentioned about leaving.As for a rise in the right its normal everyday folk such as myself who voted to leave and no way are we far right.I like a lot of my generation respect their parents and what they sacrificed to stop the far right in the 40,s and owe it to them not to let that happen. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"It's a risk you take.
No actually its a risk scotland takes i dont see any english trying to break away from scotland.
Then you do not understand the consequences of your actions "
What actions? scotland wants to break away its their actions.If they vote to leave the union well good luck to them its entirely up to the people of scotland to decide i dont get to vote on it. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"English nationalism is on the rise . It is not a Unionist agenda. People notice that and adjust their footing accordingly."
Are you seriously telling me the snp want to leave the union because of English nationalism? Did they not want to leave the union before brexit if so why did they hold an indi referendum?
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
The SNP core support is 25-30 per cent.
The core policy is independence.
Something is happening to make 25 per cent switch from other parties.
Gordon Brown sees it.
It is people who 20 years ago would have been shoe-ins for the Labour vote.
Labour offers them no hope of protection from rampant right-wingism in England. The SNP offers that.
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"The SNP core support is 25-30 per cent.
The core policy is independence.
Something is happening to make 25 per cent switch from other parties.
Gordon Brown sees it.
It is people who 20 years ago would have been shoe-ins for the Labour vote.
Labour offers them no hope of protection from rampant right-wingism in England. The SNP offers that.
"
What right-wingism are they particularly frightened of and do they know that we have elections every 5 years and with the next government we could be lumbered with a left wing government.Seems to me if that was the case they would vote labour for a left wing party.No i think its just scotish nationalism trying to use England as an excuse. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
The man who said he would sell most of our gold ust before doing it so caused the price to slump and then signed of many PFI deals that are costing us a fortune and spent mega amounts of money we didnt have, so yes lets listen to him he really has a good record, no more boom or bust |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"The man who said he would sell most of our gold ust before doing it so caused the price to slump and then signed of many PFI deals that are costing us a fortune and spent mega amounts of money we didnt have, so yes lets listen to him he really has a good record, no more boom or bust"
He isn't talking about finance.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"If they vote to leave the union well good luck to them its entirely up to the people of scotland to decide i dont get to vote on it."
If you substitute UK for Scotland in the above, you might begin to understood the outlook from Brussels.
Just as England is 10x the size of Scotland, so Brussels is 10x the size of London.
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"The man who said he would sell most of our gold ust before doing it so caused the price to slump and then signed of many PFI deals that are costing us a fortune and spent mega amounts of money we didnt have, so yes lets listen to him he really has a good record, no more boom or bust"
You missed out his raid on pensions, that's proving so disastrous now. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"The man who said he would sell most of our gold ust before doing it so caused the price to slump and then signed of many PFI deals that are costing us a fortune and spent mega amounts of money we didnt have, so yes lets listen to him he really has a good record, no more boom or bust
He isn't talking about finance.
"
My post shows his decision making and thought processes were very poor no reason to think his thoughts on this would be any better thought out |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"The man who said he would sell most of our gold ust before doing it so caused the price to slump and then signed of many PFI deals that are costing us a fortune and spent mega amounts of money we didnt have, so yes lets listen to him he really has a good record, no more boom or bust
He isn't talking about finance.
My post shows his decision making and thought processes were very poor no reason to think his thoughts on this would be any better thought out"
Who do you listen to about Scotland, then?
Who influences your thinking?
Mrs Sturgeon?
Gordon Brown understands Scotland better than most.
Certainly better than any English Tory, that's for sure.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Gold?
Let's look at oil and gas.
How much has that raised for the UK Treasury?
Poured straight into the current account and frittered away in tax cuts.
Now look at Norway, with a smaller share of the resource.
Its proceeds went not to the current account but a sovereign wealth fund, a rainy day account.
That fund is now worth $1 trillion.
Where is the UK sovereign wealth fund?
There isn't.
Instead, we have a national debt approaching $2 trillion.
All that money, pissed against a wall.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
From Oil and Gas UK:
"Since 1970 the industry has paid almost £330 billion in production tax, the equivalent of around three years of NHS bills for England in today’s money. The tax rate on oil and gas production of 40 per cent is double that paid by other UK industries."
£330 billion, pissed against a wall.
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The UK isn't sleepwalking into anything. The Tories and the Leave voters have their eyes wide open. They're pursuing what they want and if the UK breaks up because of it, so be it. It's a price they're prepared to pay.
It's patronising, we're often told, to assume these people didn't know what they were voting for. Even if they didn't; they do now - and they're content.
The break up of the UK is by no means imminent; but if it does happen it won't be anybody's fault. It'll be the result of a democratic decision.
Just like Brexit. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
What right-wingism are they particularly frightened of . . . "
Oh, the bedroom tax, the r@pe clause, the "fit to work" assessment of people at death's door.
Nine years of constant assault on the weakest and most vulnerable in society, made scapegoats for the reckless greed of the bankers.
That is very fertile ground for saying "fuck you".
Just as Cummings discovered in 2016.
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"
What right-wingism are they particularly frightened of . . .
Oh, the bedroom tax, the r@pe clause, the "fit to work" assessment of people at death's door.
Nine years of constant assault on the weakest and most vulnerable in society, made scapegoats for the reckless greed of the bankers.
That is very fertile ground for saying "fuck you".
Just as Cummings discovered in 2016.
"
You do know the bedroom tax has been abolished in scotland they have the power to spend the money on this.The fit to work is assessed by the scottish nhs too. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Exactly. Take back control from London and you can protect yourself against the right-wing agenda of England.
The more England lurches to the right, the more people in Scotland want to take back control.
This is what Brown is warning.
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Exactly. Take back control from London and you can protect yourself against the right-wing agenda of England.
The more England lurches to the right, the more people in Scotland want to take back control.
This is what Brown is warning.
"
I still dont get it,you want to leave the union because of a right wing agenda and there could be an election in the next couple of months that could return a far left government.So will the people of scotland then not want to break from the union? It seems a bit drastic to me buy hey ho as i said before if they vote for it im happy to go along with their wishes.Its a pity our mp,s dont feel the same about brexit. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Labour has completely lost its way in Scotland.
It shows no signs of recovering.
Its fundamental mistake came with the creation of Scottish Parliament.
It became the focal point for most of the issues that matter to people on a daily basis.
But, with the honourable exception of Donald Dewar, Labour kept sending its A team to London instead of Edinburgh.
The SNP moved into the space that Labour should have occupied, has held it and grown it.
Corbyn excites voters in Scotland no more than he excites voters in England.
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Labour has completely lost its way in Scotland.
It shows no signs of recovering.
Its fundamental mistake came with the creation of Scottish Parliament.
It became the focal point for most of the issues that matter to people on a daily basis.
But, with the honourable exception of Donald Dewar, Labour kept sending its A team to London instead of Edinburgh.
The SNP moved into the space that Labour should have occupied, has held it and grown it.
Corbyn excites voters in Scotland no more than he excites voters in England.
"
so basically its not right wing agendas then exactly as i thought,its scottish nationalism however you try to dress it.  |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
I still dont get it,you want to leave the union because of a right wing agenda and there could be an election in the next couple of months that could return a far left government.."
You underestimate just how right-wing a No Deal Brexit is perceived to be.
Once Europe has gone, and the English led by a stereotypical buffoon from a public school have isolated the United Kingdom from the continent, the benefits of unionism are severely diminished.
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"
I still dont get it,you want to leave the union because of a right wing agenda and there could be an election in the next couple of months that could return a far left government..
You underestimate just how right-wing a No Deal Brexit is perceived to be.
Once Europe has gone, and the English led by a stereotypical buffoon from a public school have isolated the United Kingdom from the continent, the benefits of unionism are severely diminished.
"
We have already established that its not brexit driving the indi vote as they wanted to leave even before the brexit referendum you are saying scotland is frightened of a right wing agenda.There could be a left wing government in the next couple of months if that happens and they stop asking for independence then i will concede you are right and i dont think that is going to happen. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Of course Brexit is driving it.
56% in 2014 said they wanted to stay married to England.
They were persuaded by the argument that leaving the UK also meant leaving the EU.
Fast forward to 2016 and 60-odd per cent in Scotland want to stay in the EU.
But England says Scotland must leave the EU with it.
So the 2014 argument no longer holds - being part of the UK no longer delivers the benefit of being in the EU.
The opposite now, in fact - stay with the UK and you cannot be part of the EU.
In 2014, people were warned they would be leaving two unions - the UK and the EU.
That is no longer the case. It's one or the other, not both.
People are thinking which union do they prefer - that with England or that with Europe.
The choice presented in 2014 of having both no longer exists.
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"North Queensferry. Big broonie lives almost underneath the Forth Bridge (rail).
I know he went down as PM - he was always a better No 2 - but people in Scotland, the old Labour vote, listen when he speaks.
When Cameron agreed to the 2014 referendum, he insisted Brown must not be part of the No campaign.
Brown respected that. Then the needle moved to 51%, Cameron panicked and Brown stepped into the debate.
His "Vow" speech is generally considered to have reversed the flow of Labour votes to the cause of Yes.
He saved the Union once before. He's warning he won't be able to do it again.
"
Don’t often like or agree with what you post
This, however is 100% |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Of course Brexit is driving it.
56% in 2014 said they wanted to stay married to England.
They were persuaded by the argument that leaving the UK also meant leaving the EU.
Fast forward to 2016 and 60-odd per cent in Scotland want to stay in the EU.
But England says Scotland must leave the EU with it.
So the 2014 argument no longer holds - being part of the UK no longer delivers the benefit of being in the EU.
The opposite now, in fact - stay with the UK and you cannot be part of the EU.
In 2014, people were warned they would be leaving two unions - the UK and the EU.
That is no longer the case. It's one or the other, not both.
People are thinking which union do they prefer - that with England or that with Europe.
The choice presented in 2014 of having both no longer exists.
"
Well you could say the same about london if you want to break it down but it was a British decision to leave.You do understand that you will still be out of the eu? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"You do understand that you will still be out of the eu?"
Yes, there are still a few weeks left to save the Union of the United Kingdom.
Once Europe has gone from the UK, Scotland will go too, I think. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You do understand that you will still be out of the eu?
Yes, there are still a few weeks left to save the Union of the United Kingdom.
Once Europe has gone from the UK, Scotland will go too, I think."
I don't understand why Scotland or any other part of the UK breaking away is a big deal. Especially compared to all the other way worse effects of Brexit. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because it will be far more troublesome trying to dissolve a union after 300 years than one that's had just 50 years of evolution.
"
Troublesome yes. As damaging, for either party, no. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"Because it will be far more troublesome trying to dissolve a union after 300 years than one that's had just 50 years of evolution.
Troublesome yes. As damaging, for either party, no."
Oh, a lot, lot more damaging for both parties.
The upheaval would be enormous.
As an aside, I saw RBS confirming last week its registered office would move from Edinburgh to London in such an eventuality.
The reason? its balance sheet would overwhelm the Scottish Government if it needed a bailout.
Lolol.
So if they are going to become a liability again, better to be one in England where the taxpayer has deeper pockets than in Scotland!
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"It'll be a nightmare.
So many shared institutions.
My biggest worry is how populists in England manipulate it.
The further England lurches to the right, the higher the Yes vote goes.
And once it goes Yes, the right in England will be on the march.
George Robertson called it the Balkanisation of Britain.
Whether their target is Scots or the ethnic minorities in England, I do not know. But I can guarantee you some populist will find someone to blame.
Personally i think its just another scare story to try and justify not leaving the eu.Jimmy cranky wants to go down in history as the person who took scotland out of the union its nothing to do with the eu after all salmon tried before it was mentioned about leaving.As for a rise in the right its normal everyday folk such as myself who voted to leave and no way are we far right.I like a lot of my generation respect their parents and what they sacrificed to stop the far right in the 40,s and owe it to them not to let that happen."
Many people voted Leave who arent far right but theyve landed us with a far right, populist shower in charge.....thanks for that |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"It'll be a nightmare.
So many shared institutions.
My biggest worry is how populists in England manipulate it.
The further England lurches to the right, the higher the Yes vote goes.
And once it goes Yes, the right in England will be on the march.
George Robertson called it the Balkanisation of Britain.
Whether their target is Scots or the ethnic minorities in England, I do not know. But I can guarantee you some populist will find someone to blame.
Personally i think its just another scare story to try and justify not leaving the eu.Jimmy cranky wants to go down in history as the person who took scotland out of the union its nothing to do with the eu after all salmon tried before it was mentioned about leaving.As for a rise in the right its normal everyday folk such as myself who voted to leave and no way are we far right.I like a lot of my generation respect their parents and what they sacrificed to stop the far right in the 40,s and owe it to them not to let that happen.
Many people voted Leave who arent far right but theyve landed us with a far right, populist shower in charge.....thanks for that"
No i dont think so i think its down to all those mp,s that voted in the commons against the withdrawal agreement,they now have their worse nightmare in boris. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It'll be a nightmare.
So many shared institutions.
My biggest worry is how populists in England manipulate it.
The further England lurches to the right, the higher the Yes vote goes.
And once it goes Yes, the right in England will be on the march.
George Robertson called it the Balkanisation of Britain.
Whether their target is Scots or the ethnic minorities in England, I do not know. But I can guarantee you some populist will find someone to blame.
Personally i think its just another scare story to try and justify not leaving the eu.Jimmy cranky wants to go down in history as the person who took scotland out of the union its nothing to do with the eu after all salmon tried before it was mentioned about leaving.As for a rise in the right its normal everyday folk such as myself who voted to leave and no way are we far right.I like a lot of my generation respect their parents and what they sacrificed to stop the far right in the 40,s and owe it to them not to let that happen.
Many people voted Leave who arent far right but theyve landed us with a far right, populist shower in charge.....thanks for thatNo i dont think so i think its down to all those mp,s that voted in the commons against the withdrawal agreement,they now have their worse nightmare in boris."
Boris is a nightmare only because he's happy to bumble over the no deal line. I don't see him as being the worse nightmare in a left v right battle. Especially where the numbers are. I suspect if you're left and leave you may be happier with Boris than May... And not just from a brexit pov |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"It'll be a nightmare.
So many shared institutions.
My biggest worry is how populists in England manipulate it.
The further England lurches to the right, the higher the Yes vote goes.
And once it goes Yes, the right in England will be on the march.
George Robertson called it the Balkanisation of Britain.
Whether their target is Scots or the ethnic minorities in England, I do not know. But I can guarantee you some populist will find someone to blame.
Personally i think its just another scare story to try and justify not leaving the eu.Jimmy cranky wants to go down in history as the person who took scotland out of the union its nothing to do with the eu after all salmon tried before it was mentioned about leaving.As for a rise in the right its normal everyday folk such as myself who voted to leave and no way are we far right.I like a lot of my generation respect their parents and what they sacrificed to stop the far right in the 40,s and owe it to them not to let that happen.
Many people voted Leave who arent far right but theyve landed us with a far right, populist shower in charge.....thanks for thatNo i dont think so i think its down to all those mp,s that voted in the commons against the withdrawal agreement,they now have their worse nightmare in boris.
Boris is a nightmare only because he's happy to bumble over the no deal line. I don't see him as being the worse nightmare in a left v right battle. Especially where the numbers are. I suspect if you're left and leave you may be happier with Boris than May... And not just from a brexit pov "
Totally agree with you i meant in the context of leaving the eu the remainers could have had a withdrawal agreement voted against it and now have in their eyes a worse outcome a no deal exit.They were playing poker with politics and lost. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Mr Brown was very good as chancellor but rubbish at Prine Ministeryeah that good that he flogged 1/4 of our gold off at a very low price.Genius "
Raided our pensions and set in motion the massive PFI programme.
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