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Communists and Nat(z)ionalists
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"Communists and Nationalists, right and left: what do they have in common?
For intstance, both tend to care a fair amount about politics.
Would you like to share other similarities?"
*For instance
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By *ild_oatsMan
over a year ago
the land of saints & sinners |
The majority of people misunderstand communism and associate it with places like China, North Korea and the former USSR.
When what communism actually is wa socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state.
When in fact the those countries were authoritarian states that practiced state capitalism to benefit the ruling elite whilst giving the subjected masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression... |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
i really do not understand your post.
There are various types of "nationalism".
Cataluyna and Scotland might be cast as civic nationalism.
America as economic nationalism.
Ireland as . . . troubled nationalism.
England as . . . pretty undefined nationalism.
None of them stand any comparison with North Korea or China or wherever.
Perhaps you need to distinguish between ideologies that are authoritarian and libertarian.
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"
practiced state capitalism to benefit the ruling elite whilst giving the subjected masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression..."
I though that the very essence of Communism. |
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"
practiced state capitalism to benefit the ruling elite whilst giving the subjected masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
I though that the very essence of Communism."
Me too, hence its failure.. 
In some ways the worst aspects of capitalism have the same aim and outcomes, they just pretend they are totally opposite.. |
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"i really do not understand your post.
There are various types of "nationalism".
Cataluyna and Scotland might be cast as civic nationalism.
America as economic nationalism.
Ireland as . . . troubled nationalism.
England as . . . pretty undefined nationalism.
None of them stand any comparison with North Korea or China or wherever.
Perhaps you need to distinguish between ideologies that are authoritarian and libertarian.
"
I was referring to similarities between left and right wings; if you see in this forum there is probably 50% from each wing, sharing the same taste for the lifestyle for instance.
It can also be similarities between authoritarians and libertarians; both could be either left or right... Any you would like to share? |
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Whilst the split politically may be 50/50 I would strongly contend that the majority are just off centre for their chosen preference..
And many will share some of the ideas that the 'other side' have..
Then there's the minority on both sides..
Trouble is labels like communism, trot, fascist are bandied about so often they blur the reality.. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
I was referring to similarities between left and right wings; if you see in this forum there is probably 50% from each wing, sharing the same taste for the lifestyle for instance.
"
Sharing the same taste for the lifestyle?
I imagine most people on here, whatever their views, hold firm to the idea of living in a democracy where their personal freedoms and rights are enshrined in statute to prevent precisely the kind of authoritarian or dictatorial rule, whatever -ism you want to give it.
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I was referring to similarities between left and right wings; if you see in this forum there is probably 50% from each wing, sharing the same taste for the lifestyle for instance.
Sharing the same taste for the lifestyle?
I imagine most people on here, whatever their views, hold firm to the idea of living in a democracy where their personal freedoms and rights are enshrined in statute to prevent precisely the kind of authoritarian or dictatorial rule, whatever -ism you want to give it.
"
This..
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"
practiced state capitalism to benefit the ruling elite whilst giving the subjected masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
I though that the very essence of Communism.
Me too, hence its failure..
"
Not really, as the poster was trying to say, Communism in its truest form has never actually been implemented.
Humans get in the way of these things, our very nature makes it almost impossible to do.
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By *ild_oatsMan
over a year ago
the land of saints & sinners |
"
practiced state capitalism to benefit the ruling elite whilst giving the subjected masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
I though that the very essence of Communism.
Me too, hence its failure..
Not really, as the poster was trying to say, Communism in its truest form has never actually been implemented.
Humans get in the way of these things, our very nature makes it almost impossible to do.
"
Exactly.....
Somebody actually understands it.
Communism has never been truly implemented..
The word has been applied to authoritarian regimes without any real understanding of its true social economic philosophy.
This does not make me a supporter of such a system. I just understand political systems. |
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"
practiced state capitalism to benefit the ruling elite whilst giving the subjected masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
I though that the very essence of Communism.
Me too, hence its failure..
Not really, as the poster was trying to say, Communism in its truest form has never actually been implemented.
Humans get in the way of these things, our very nature makes it almost impossible to do.
"
Like a perfect soufflé then, though more painful for some the regime deemed a threat..
Of differ from the prescribed but oft ignored by the powerful 'norm'..
Like the national socialism of the Nazis it has been an experience less than good for the vast majority under its rule..
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"
practiced state capitalism to benefit the ruling elite whilst giving the subjected masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
I though that the very essence of Communism.
Me too, hence its failure..
Not really, as the poster was trying to say, Communism in its truest form has never actually been implemented.
Humans get in the way of these things, our very nature makes it almost impossible to do.
Exactly.....
Somebody actually understands it.
Communism has never been truly implemented..
The word has been applied to authoritarian regimes without any real understanding of its true social economic philosophy.
This does not make me a supporter of such a system. I just understand political systems."
We will never have an individual ideal system because as Nick says the very worst aspects of us as a species will need to have gone and that's not likely if ever.. |
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Again we are having a discussion predicated on misconceptions.
What people here (for the most part) believe to be communism is in fact a form of capitalism.
Stalinist/Maoism can be described as single party, totalitarian command economies where the state either own or control all capital, capital investment and capital expenditure.
If one wishes to see a fully functioning and successful communist state you need look no further than the Roman Catholic Church. Any person joining the Church (not a follower of the religion) surrenders all property to the Church and in return the Church provides for them from that point on.
Nazism is an extreme form of Fascism. Fascism is economically characterised as a mixing of church, state, military and industry.
Stalinist/Maoist and Fascist states usually share similar political systems that can be characterised as being authoritarian, not tolerating decent and nationalistic/racist in nature.
I for one would strongly suggest that the USA is at the very minimum a fascist economy and is well down the road to becoming a full on fascist state. Of course many will say I am either being hyperbolic, wrong or maybe even insane in my characterisation of the USA, but then I suspect those same people (if alive and German) would have cheered when Hitler came to power in 1933. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Communists and Nationalists, right and left: what do they have in common?
For intstance, both tend to care a fair amount about politics.
Would you like to share other similarities?"
Both want to control people and impose there ideologies both evil and need to be removed from society |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"i really do not understand your post.
There are various types of "nationalism".
Cataluyna and Scotland might be cast as civic nationalism.
America as economic nationalism.
Ireland as . . . troubled nationalism.
England as . . . pretty undefined nationalism.
None of them stand any comparison with North Korea or China or wherever.
Perhaps you need to distinguish between ideologies that are authoritarian and libertarian.
"
A bit to detailed for fab but I see where your coming from |
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By *ild_oatsMan
over a year ago
the land of saints & sinners |
"Communists and Nationalists, right and left: what do they have in common?
For intstance, both tend to care a fair amount about politics.
Would you like to share other similarities?Both want to control people and impose there ideologies both evil and need to be removed from society"
Communism is not evil....
sounds like you believe it to be the misappropriated authoritarian state capitalism which benefits the ruling elite whilst subjecting masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
True communism has never been implemented as it requires true collectivism from all in the society.
Understanding political theory helps not what is fed to you by the way of misinformation dished out by the media....
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"
practiced state capitalism to benefit the ruling elite whilst giving the subjected masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
I though that the very essence of Communism.
Me too, hence its failure..
Not really, as the poster was trying to say, Communism in its truest form has never actually been implemented.
Humans get in the way of these things, our very nature makes it almost impossible to do.
"
Mutatus mutandis, the same applies to capitalism... Right?
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"Communists and Nationalists, right and left: what do they have in common?
For intstance, both tend to care a fair amount about politics.
Would you like to share other similarities?Both want to control people and impose there ideologies both evil and need to be removed from society
Communism is not evil....
sounds like you believe it to be the misappropriated authoritarian state capitalism which benefits the ruling elite whilst subjecting masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
True communism has never been implemented as it requires true collectivism from all in the society.
Understanding political theory helps not what is fed to you by the way of misinformation dished out by the media....
"
The right/left media keeps selling that we are divided... Would that be missinformation too? |
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"
practiced state capitalism to benefit the ruling elite whilst giving the subjected masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
I though that the very essence of Communism.
Me too, hence its failure..
Not really, as the poster was trying to say, Communism in its truest form has never actually been implemented.
Humans get in the way of these things, our very nature makes it almost impossible to do.
Mutatus mutandis, the same applies to capitalism... Right?
"
Pretty much. A perfectly truthful free market would work perfectly, with total transparency at each level of the supply chain, allowing everyone to decide more accurately what value there is in a particular item. |
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"Communists and Nationalists, right and left: what do they have in common?
For intstance, both tend to care a fair amount about politics.
Would you like to share other similarities?Both want to control people and impose there ideologies both evil and need to be removed from society
Communism is not evil....
sounds like you believe it to be the misappropriated authoritarian state capitalism which benefits the ruling elite whilst subjecting masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
True communism has never been implemented as it requires true collectivism from all in the society.
Understanding political theory helps not what is fed to you by the way of misinformation dished out by the media....
The right/left media keeps selling that we are divided... Would that be missinformation too?
"
Which bit of the media is more than a millimeter left of center? |
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"
practiced state capitalism to benefit the ruling elite whilst giving the subjected masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
I though that the very essence of Communism.
Me too, hence its failure..
Not really, as the poster was trying to say, Communism in its truest form has never actually been implemented.
Humans get in the way of these things, our very nature makes it almost impossible to do.
Mutatus mutandis, the same applies to capitalism... Right?
Pretty much. A perfectly truthful free market would work perfectly, with total transparency at each level of the supply chain, allowing everyone to decide more accurately what value there is in a particular item. "
There you go: They both are theories.... Anyone that has some experience with theories understands that they are used to model reality, something they usually do with a certain amount of error; they are all approximations of reality. Therefore, defending any is somehow a waste of energy.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Whilst the split politically may be 50/50 I would strongly contend that the majority are just off centre for their chosen preference..
And many will share some of the ideas that the 'other side' have..
Then there's the minority on both sides..
Trouble is labels like communism, trot, fascist are bandied about so often they blur the reality.. "
A bit like Nazi and racist. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Communists and Nationalists, right and left: what do they have in common?
For intstance, both tend to care a fair amount about politics.
Would you like to share other similarities?Both want to control people and impose there ideologies both evil and need to be removed from society
Communism is not evil....
sounds like you believe it to be the misappropriated authoritarian state capitalism which benefits the ruling elite whilst subjecting masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
True communism has never been implemented as it requires true collectivism from all in the society.
Understanding political theory helps not what is fed to you by the way of misinformation dished out by the media....
"
You can't make rats be cats no matter what system you implement, humans have humanistic evolutionary character flaws, we learnt long ago that the best way to defeat those flaws was political democracy, freedom and a thousand ways to keep the power of the state under check, let's get back to those principles, let's arrest and imprison those who seek to corrupt it.
The state is there to uphold laws we all democratically agree to follow and for far too long those in power have been cajoling us all into a police state, were going to live to regret that, the working class of the Soviets were far worse off than any working class of a free country, communism from the tzar only made their lives worse not better and that was pretty hard to do seen as they're lives were fucking shite under the tzar but the communists managed to fuck it up even more because they're naive ideological idiots like Islamists or free marketeers.
There's no easy answers to life. |
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"Communists and Nationalists, right and left: what do they have in common?
For intstance, both tend to care a fair amount about politics.
Would you like to share other similarities?Both want to control people and impose there ideologies both evil and need to be removed from society
Communism is not evil....
sounds like you believe it to be the misappropriated authoritarian state capitalism which benefits the ruling elite whilst subjecting masses to the illusion of collectivism via propaganda and oppression...
True communism has never been implemented as it requires true collectivism from all in the society.
Understanding political theory helps not what is fed to you by the way of misinformation dished out by the media....
You can't make rats be cats no matter what system you implement, humans have humanistic evolutionary character flaws, we learnt long ago that the best way to defeat those flaws was political democracy, freedom and a thousand ways to keep the power of the state under check, let's get back to those principles, let's arrest and imprison those who seek to corrupt it.
The state is there to uphold laws we all democratically agree to follow and for far too long those in power have been cajoling us all into a police state, were going to live to regret that, the working class of the Soviets were far worse off than any working class of a free country, communism from the tzar only made their lives worse not better and that was pretty hard to do seen as they're lives were fucking shite under the tzar but the communists managed to fuck it up even more because they're naive ideological idiots like Islamists or free marketeers.
There's no easy answers to life."
At last someone talks sense, there is no easy answer or solution, we’ll never all agree on things but we need to work together to make things work. I voted to remain in the Brexit referendum, the country voted differently, that’s democracy.
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"Again we are having a discussion predicated on misconceptions.
What people here (for the most part) believe to be communism is in fact a form of capitalism.
Stalinist/Maoism can be described as single party, totalitarian command economies where the state either own or control all capital, capital investment and capital expenditure.
If one wishes to see a fully functioning and successful communist state you need look no further than the Roman Catholic Church. Any person joining the Church (not a follower of the religion) surrenders all property to the Church and in return the Church provides for them from that point on.
Nazism is an extreme form of Fascism. Fascism is economically characterised as a mixing of church, state, military and industry.
Stalinist/Maoist and Fascist states usually share similar political systems that can be characterised as being authoritarian, not tolerating decent and nationalistic/racist in nature.
I for one would strongly suggest that the USA is at the very minimum a fascist economy and is well down the road to becoming a full on fascist state. Of course many will say I am either being hyperbolic, wrong or maybe even insane in my characterisation of the USA, but then I suspect those same people (if alive and German) would have cheered when Hitler came to power in 1933."
“Any person joining the Church (not a follower of the religion) surrenders all property to the Church and in return the Church provides for them from that point on” Really ?
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Whilst the split politically may be 50/50 I would strongly contend that the majority are just off centre for their chosen preference..
And many will share some of the ideas that the 'other side' have..
Then there's the minority on both sides..
Trouble is labels like communism, trot, fascist are bandied about so often they blur the reality..
A bit like Nazi and racist."
Nazi is overused, as is racist and communist.
Generally what people are objecting to is authoritarianism and/or corruption.
However, racism is quite often racism. As is sexism.
It does exist doesn't it? It also doesn't have to be overt name calling does it?
People can also victimise minorities purely for political ends. That is still racism even if the imstigators are personally indifferent.
I fully expect you to disagree just because it's me writing. I'm interested to know how  |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"i really do not understand your post.
There are various types of "nationalism".
Cataluyna and Scotland might be cast as civic nationalism.
America as economic nationalism.
Ireland as . . . troubled nationalism.
England as . . . pretty undefined nationalism.
None of them stand any comparison with North Korea or China or wherever.
Perhaps you need to distinguish between ideologies that are authoritarian and libertarian.
I was referring to similarities between left and right wings; if you see in this forum there is probably 50% from each wing, sharing the same taste for the lifestyle for instance.
It can also be similarities between authoritarians and libertarians; both could be either left or right... Any you would like to share?"
All politics has every shade of government from light touch to authoritarian.
Government is more important than the economic system employed.
Most people sit in the middle because they want to live in a safe environment without corruption and want to feel that they have some control over their destiny (in reality or imagined). |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Whilst the split politically may be 50/50 I would strongly contend that the majority are just off centre for their chosen preference..
And many will share some of the ideas that the 'other side' have..
Then there's the minority on both sides..
Trouble is labels like communism, trot, fascist are bandied about so often they blur the reality..
A bit like Nazi and racist.
Nazi is overused, as is racist and communist.
Generally what people are objecting to is authoritarianism and/or corruption.
However, racism is quite often racism. As is sexism.
It does exist doesn't it? It also doesn't have to be overt name calling does it?
People can also victimise minorities purely for political ends. That is still racism even if the imstigators are personally indifferent.
I fully expect you to disagree just because it's me writing. I'm interested to know how "
Yes I disagree, name calling is not racism, racism is the belief that ones own race is superior to anothers, calling somebody a fat bastard is name calling, putting forward ideas without name calling that fat people are somehow less of a person is far more worrying and that comes back full circle to politics in which the reality is all these different political ideologies are really just the same, there all collectivism feeding on human nature, liberalism was meant to be the great freedom of the individual living under a one person one vote philosophy, sadly it underestimated the power of human nature to group and group think.
Nazis, socialists, fascist communists, there all the same thing at a basic level, they all want control of everything to create a utopia and going by previous history it never ends well for any of us, alas such is the dumbed down stupidity of the average citizen thanks to modern life and modern education they'll believe any old shit that people write.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Nazis, socialists, fascist communists, there all the same thing at a basic level, they all want control of everything to create a utopia and going by previous history it never ends well for any of us, alas such is the dumbed down stupidity of the average citizen thanks to modern life and modern education they'll believe any old shit that people write.
"
The above partial quote does raise a smile. Something to do with taking control of everything to create a Utopia.
Are we currently being promised Utopia here in the UK? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Nazis, socialists, fascist communists, there all the same thing at a basic level, they all want control of everything to create a utopia and going by previous history it never ends well for any of us, alas such is the dumbed down stupidity of the average citizen thanks to modern life and modern education they'll believe any old shit that people write.
The above partial quote does raise a smile. Something to do with taking control of everything to create a Utopia.
Are we currently being promised Utopia here in the UK?"
Oh without doubt, there going for a mixture of 1984 and a brave New world. |
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By *omaMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"Again we are having a discussion predicated on misconceptions.
What people here (for the most part) believe to be communism is in fact a form of capitalism.
Stalinist/Maoism can be described as single party, totalitarian command economies where the state either own or control all capital, capital investment and capital expenditure.
If one wishes to see a fully functioning and successful communist state you need look no further than the Roman Catholic Church. Any person joining the Church (not a follower of the religion) surrenders all property to the Church and in return the Church provides for them from that point on.
Nazism is an extreme form of Fascism. Fascism is economically characterised as a mixing of church, state, military and industry.
Stalinist/Maoist and Fascist states usually share similar political systems that can be characterised as being authoritarian, not tolerating decent and nationalistic/racist in nature.
I for one would strongly suggest that the USA is at the very minimum a fascist economy and is well down the road to becoming a full on fascist state. Of course many will say I am either being hyperbolic, wrong or maybe even insane in my characterisation of the USA, but then I suspect those same people (if alive and German) would have cheered when Hitler came to power in 1933."
Nazi Germany was a state that controlled the economy (zero market forces/ capitalism) they controlled freedom of speech, religion and took away the rights of its citizens . . Quite the opposite of the right. . . . Nazi Germany was socialist . . The left, the far left. . . Now who fits into the left? Trump? . . Ha ha |
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"Again we are having a discussion predicated on misconceptions.
What people here (for the most part) believe to be communism is in fact a form of capitalism.
Stalinist/Maoism can be described as single party, totalitarian command economies where the state either own or control all capital, capital investment and capital expenditure.
If one wishes to see a fully functioning and successful communist state you need look no further than the Roman Catholic Church. Any person joining the Church (not a follower of the religion) surrenders all property to the Church and in return the Church provides for them from that point on.
Nazism is an extreme form of Fascism. Fascism is economically characterised as a mixing of church, state, military and industry.
Stalinist/Maoist and Fascist states usually share similar political systems that can be characterised as being authoritarian, not tolerating decent and nationalistic/racist in nature.
I for one would strongly suggest that the USA is at the very minimum a fascist economy and is well down the road to becoming a full on fascist state. Of course many will say I am either being hyperbolic, wrong or maybe even insane in my characterisation of the USA, but then I suspect those same people (if alive and German) would have cheered when Hitler came to power in 1933.
Nazi Germany was a state that controlled the economy (zero market forces/ capitalism) they controlled freedom of speech, religion and took away the rights of its citizens . . Quite the opposite of the right. . . . Nazi Germany was socialist . . The left, the far left. . . Now who fits into the left? Trump? . . Ha ha "
Definitely Trump: Socialism for the wealthy and capitalism for the rest, or at least is what I read from the effects of his tax cuts; Trump is a lefty too.
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Whilst the split politically may be 50/50 I would strongly contend that the majority are just off centre for their chosen preference..
And many will share some of the ideas that the 'other side' have..
Then there's the minority on both sides..
Trouble is labels like communism, trot, fascist are bandied about so often they blur the reality..
A bit like Nazi and racist.
Nazi is overused, as is racist and communist.
Generally what people are objecting to is authoritarianism and/or corruption.
However, racism is quite often racism. As is sexism.
It does exist doesn't it? It also doesn't have to be overt name calling does it?
People can also victimise minorities purely for political ends. That is still racism even if the imstigators are personally indifferent.
I fully expect you to disagree just because it's me writing. I'm interested to know how
Yes I disagree, name calling is not racism, racism is the belief that ones own race is superior to anothers, calling somebody a fat bastard is name calling, putting forward ideas without name calling that fat people are somehow less of a person is far more worrying and that comes back full circle to politics in which the reality is all these different political ideologies are really just the same, there all collectivism feeding on human nature, liberalism was meant to be the great freedom of the individual living under a one person one vote philosophy, sadly it underestimated the power of human nature to group and group think.
Nazis, socialists, fascist communists, there all the same thing at a basic level, they all want control of everything to create a utopia and going by previous history it never ends well for any of us, alas such is the dumbed down stupidity of the average citizen thanks to modern life and modern education they'll believe any old shit that people write.
"
Your last position I agree with to some extent.
Your first assertion not. It's far too simple a definition.
Racism does not require you to feel superior. Racism also comes a a consequence of feeling inferior or fearful.
Racism is also using a minority or group as a scapegoat for society's ills. So racism can be used as a tool even if those employing it have no particular position on it other than it being useful for gaining and maintaining power.
Religious groups or political groups can also be targeted in the same way.
Name calling is racist as it is part of the process of "othering" a particular group. Labelling them and treating them differently allows them to be used as a scapegoat.
The part in-between is not that the liberal ideal is wrong. It has been manipulated. It's a bit like the intent of capitalism or communism. They are great theories but perfect market knowledge or everyone working selflessly for the greater good are fantasies.
Liberal democracy worked remarkably well for quite a long time but became comfortable, manipulated by too much capitalism and due to its inherent inability to impose Draconian measures it has been manipulated by the extreme views claiming to represent the majority.
Democracy has been willingly voted away in countries like Turkey and Poland. That brings us back to your last point... |
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