FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > NI border (again)
NI border (again)
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"I can only see 3 options , (1) The UK leaves The EU and a propper manned border is installed between the only place that The UK has a land border with The EU , thereby taking control of our borders ,,, (2) The UK leaves the EU with the island of Ireland becoming one independent country away from The UK .,,,(3) Stay as we are and cancel Brexit .., Somebody , somewhere has got to make s decision , the fantasy land of " there might be technology that can sort the problem " is just not happening and is pure fantasy ,,, if we leave with no deal on October 31st , then those who have planned and wished for no deal actually need to get option 1 (a border) up , ready and running by November 1st " Option 1 would contravene the Good Friday Agreement. Option 2 is not going to happen without years of talks and concessions on both sides. Option 3 would polarize Britain and produce a strong far right element in Britain. There is an Option 4 that is most likely. The UK will align with EU trade zone ( nominally temporarily ) but technically leave the EU. Politicians will then claim they've achieved Brexit and as most British people are tired of the circus at this stage it will probably be viewed as acceptable by the majority. | |||
" There is an Option 4 that is most likely. The UK will align with EU trade zone ( nominally temporarily ) but technically leave the EU. Politicians will then claim they've achieved Brexit and as most British people are tired of the circus at this stage it will probably be viewed as acceptable by the majority." Not only that, but that is in fact pretty much exactly what the official Vote Leave campaign - and unofficial campaigners like Nigel Farrage - campaigned for. Every single one of them said that the deal we secured from the EU would be one that would not in any way jeapordise our access to the Single Market - or we could "Be like Norway" as Farrage said on multiple occasions. Admittedly Boris said it because he just said what he thought people wanted to hear. Gove said it because despite being lifelong eurosceptic, it turned out that he didn't in fact have the slightest clue about how the European Union and Single Market worked. And Farrage said it because he has the unique ability to talk without moving his lips. Nonetheless if they were to be held to account for their campaign promises, EAA membership or something very much like that could be an option. | |||
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"I can only see 3 options , (1) The UK leaves The EU and a propper manned border is installed between the only place that The UK has a land border with The EU , thereby taking control of our borders ,,, (2) The UK leaves the EU with the island of Ireland becoming one independent country away from The UK .,,,(3) Stay as we are and cancel Brexit .., Somebody , somewhere has got to make s decision , the fantasy land of " there might be technology that can sort the problem " is just not happening and is pure fantasy ,,, if we leave with no deal on October 31st , then those who have planned and wished for no deal actually need to get option 1 (a border) up , ready and running by November 1st Option 1 would contravene the Good Friday Agreement. Option 2 is not going to happen without years of talks and concessions on both sides. Option 3 would polarize Britain and produce a strong far right element in Britain. There is an Option 4 that is most likely. The UK will align with EU trade zone ( nominally temporarily ) but technically leave the EU. Politicians will then claim they've achieved Brexit and as most British people are tired of the circus at this stage it will probably be viewed as acceptable by the majority." Or option 5, revoke article 50 and cancel brexit. | |||
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"What is likely is that we leave the EU, with some kind of deal. A semi hard (lol) border be created between Northern Ireland and the ROI. Fast tracking domestic travellers and only making those from other parts of the world including other parts of the EU, go through border checks. Regular visitors who are just going to see family should be able to get through with the minimum of fuss." . That sounds very much like a border ,, would this not be against the Good Friday Agreement ? , which , I believe says there should not be a border | |||
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"What is likely is that we leave the EU, with some kind of deal. A semi hard (lol) border be created between Northern Ireland and the ROI. Fast tracking domestic travellers and only making those from other parts of the world including other parts of the EU, go through border checks. Regular visitors who are just going to see family should be able to get through with the minimum of fuss.. That sounds very much like a border ,, would this not be against the Good Friday Agreement ? , which , I believe says there should not be a border" It’s no coincidence that there are strong moves afoot to get the NI assembly up and running after nearly three years! If that’s up and running, and NI votes separately in any sort of plebiscite to have the backstop, it gives cover to the DUP to backtrack, and to the conservatives to impose the Backstop, sure they’d only be imposing “the will of the people” The DUP only represent about 25% of the electorate in NI, | |||
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" It’s no coincidence that there are strong moves afoot to get the NI assembly up and running after nearly three years! If that’s up and running, and NI votes separately in any sort of plebiscite to have the backstop, it gives cover to the DUP to backtrack, and to the conservatives to impose the Backstop, sure they’d only be imposing “the will of the people” The DUP only represent about 25% of the electorate in NI, " In a union that was equitable and built on mutual respect, this issue would be left to the people of Northern Ireland to determine. It affects people in Northern Ireland in a way that does not affect the rest of the UK. If they are content to be in a relationship with the Republic and the EU that is different from the rest of the UK, then that is their choice. They are not being given the choice, however. | |||
" It’s no coincidence that there are strong moves afoot to get the NI assembly up and running after nearly three years! If that’s up and running, and NI votes separately in any sort of plebiscite to have the backstop, it gives cover to the DUP to backtrack, and to the conservatives to impose the Backstop, sure they’d only be imposing “the will of the people” The DUP only represent about 25% of the electorate in NI, In a union that was equitable and built on mutual respect, this issue would be left to the people of Northern Ireland to determine. It affects people in Northern Ireland in a way that does not affect the rest of the UK. If they are content to be in a relationship with the Republic and the EU that is different from the rest of the UK, then that is their choice. They are not being given the choice, however. " I think they might be given a choice, it’s a way of getting everyone off the hook, and giving everyone the opportunity to say that they have delivered! | |||
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" It’s no coincidence that there are strong moves afoot to get the NI assembly up and running after nearly three years! If that’s up and running, and NI votes separately in any sort of plebiscite to have the backstop, it gives cover to the DUP to backtrack, and to the conservatives to impose the Backstop, sure they’d only be imposing “the will of the people” The DUP only represent about 25% of the electorate in NI, In a union that was equitable and built on mutual respect, this issue would be left to the people of Northern Ireland to determine. It affects people in Northern Ireland in a way that does not affect the rest of the UK. If they are content to be in a relationship with the Republic and the EU that is different from the rest of the UK, then that is their choice. They are not being given the choice, however. I think they might be given a choice, it’s a way of getting everyone off the hook, and giving everyone the opportunity to say that they have delivered! " On what grounds would the people of Northern Ireland be given a choice denied the rest of the UK ?? | |||
" On what grounds would the people of Northern Ireland be given a choice denied the rest of the UK ?? " Because the question does't affect people elsewhere in the UK, basically. It is about whether they are content to enter a legal agreement that would keep the country aligned with the republic in terms of trade regulation, and so remove any need for a visible border. Were you also upset when only people living in Scotland were allowed to vote on the future of Scotland? | |||
" On what grounds would the people of Northern Ireland be given a choice denied the rest of the UK ?? Because the question does't affect people elsewhere in the UK, basically. It is about whether they are content to enter a legal agreement that would keep the country aligned with the republic in terms of trade regulation, and so remove any need for a visible border. Were you also upset when only people living in Scotland were allowed to vote on the future of Scotland? " Who said I was upset ?  | |||
" It’s no coincidence that there are strong moves afoot to get the NI assembly up and running after nearly three years! If that’s up and running, and NI votes separately in any sort of plebiscite to have the backstop, it gives cover to the DUP to backtrack, and to the conservatives to impose the Backstop, sure they’d only be imposing “the will of the people” The DUP only represent about 25% of the electorate in NI, In a union that was equitable and built on mutual respect, this issue would be left to the people of Northern Ireland to determine. It affects people in Northern Ireland in a way that does not affect the rest of the UK. If they are content to be in a relationship with the Republic and the EU that is different from the rest of the UK, then that is their choice. They are not being given the choice, however. I think they might be given a choice, it’s a way of getting everyone off the hook, and giving everyone the opportunity to say that they have delivered! On what grounds would the people of Northern Ireland be given a choice denied the rest of the UK ?? " Because it’s expedient and gets a lot of bluffers and charlatans off the hook! | |||
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" " People in England aint got a clue about life in Northern Ireland. | |||
"Remember how we were told that technological systems that would prevent the need for a hard border in the event of a no deal didn't exist and were years away. Turns out that information wasn't accurate. About a week ago Michel Barnier was stating that such technologies already existed. Well duh, just take a look at the congestion zone in London. " Can you provide a link to Michel Barnier actually saying this. I heard Iain Duncan Smith say almost exactly the same thing, that Barnier had said it was possibly some time last week, but that was about a month ago. The most technology advanced border in the world is the border between Sweden and Norway. Sweden is in the EU but Norway is only in the EEA (which means Norway is in the Single Market and has complete regularity alignment with the EU but not in the EU's customs union). Even with the most advanced technological border in the world crossing it is not frictionless. Cars go through unmanned border posts equipped with cameras that use an automatic number plate recognition system. There is also a sophisticated computer system which allows goods to be declared to customs before they leave warehouses but lorries transporting those goods must still stop at a staffed crossing for physical customs checks. Norwegian customs says it processes about 1,300 lorries every day - and each one takes at least 20 minutes. Lars Karlsson, who used to be a senior Swedish customs officer, wrote a report for the European Parliament on how technology could be used at the Irish border in which he concluded technology alone wouldn't eliminate the need for checks at the Irish border and the relative success of the Sweden-Norway customs border relied on high levels of trust and similar product standards which won't exist between the UK and Ireland as the UK is not only leaving the customs union but the Single Market too. It also seems to me to be not only a complete oxymoron but also a total betrayal of the BREXIT promise to "take back control of our borders" but then try to claim that there will be absolutely no controls what so ever on the only border we'll actually have between the UK and the EU. It's really very, very simple. Either we are going to take back control of our borders, which means border checks at the border wherever they are, or we're not going to have border checks and not take back control of our borders. We can't have our cake and eat it. So which is it? | |||
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"Remember how we were told that technological systems that would prevent the need for a hard border in the event of a no deal didn't exist and were years away. Turns out that information wasn't accurate. About a week ago Michel Barnier was stating that such technologies already existed. Well duh, just take a look at the congestion zone in London. Can you provide a link to Michel Barnier actually saying this. I heard Iain Duncan Smith say almost exactly the same thing, that Barnier had said it was possibly some time last week, but that was about a month ago. The most technology advanced border in the world is the border between Sweden and Norway. Sweden is in the EU but Norway is only in the EEA (which means Norway is in the Single Market and has complete regularity alignment with the EU but not in the EU's customs union). Even with the most advanced technological border in the world crossing it is not frictionless. Cars go through unmanned border posts equipped with cameras that use an automatic number plate recognition system. There is also a sophisticated computer system which allows goods to be declared to customs before they leave warehouses but lorries transporting those goods must still stop at a staffed crossing for physical customs checks. Norwegian customs says it processes about 1,300 lorries every day - and each one takes at least 20 minutes. Lars Karlsson, who used to be a senior Swedish customs officer, wrote a report for the European Parliament on how technology could be used at the Irish border in which he concluded technology alone wouldn't eliminate the need for checks at the Irish border and the relative success of the Sweden-Norway customs border relied on high levels of trust and similar product standards which won't exist between the UK and Ireland as the UK is not only leaving the customs union but the Single Market too. It also seems to me to be not only a complete oxymoron but also a total betrayal of the BREXIT promise to "take back control of our borders" but then try to claim that there will be absolutely no controls what so ever on the only border we'll actually have between the UK and the EU. It's really very, very simple. Either we are going to take back control of our borders, which means border checks at the border wherever they are, or we're not going to have border checks and not take back control of our borders. We can't have our cake and eat it. So which is it? " Further to the above, the only article I've been able to find googling Barnier - technical solution - Irish border concluded with this "For their part, EU Brexit negotiators – starting with their leader, Michel Barnier – have consistently said that the Irish border cannot be solved by relying on technology. Yet the idea that it could save the day reappears again and again from members of the British government. It is as if Brexiteers are turning to the god of technology because they don’t know what deity to turn to." https://www.france24.com/en/20190208-brexit-technology-ireland-may-barnier-northern-border-uk-may-dup | |||
The internet suggests tourists are fine, unless your luck is out and its a stroppy border patrol on duty.
I need a permit for this, a permit for that, pay extra for another bit of paper and so on.
If all else fails, I plan to smile nicely.
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"We crossed the perimeter of the EU last night. Driving from Dubrovnik to Sarajevo. Had to show passports to the checkpoint on the Croatian side, then drive 500m to another checkpoint where we got our passports stamped by Bosnia Herzegvina. "That's unusual," I said to me fella while pulled up at the booth. "What did you say?" said the border guard (who was quite handsome btw). "Passport stamp." "You are not in the European Union," he said. Okay. Looking forward to seeing this on the British border in Ireland. NOT. My telephone ran out of data within two hours. No EU cap on roaming charges here. Anyway, Sarajevo so far is fab. Saw some posters really critical of EU and West for leaving this place to suffer in the Bosnian war. " . A little surprised that there was a manned border ( 2 manned borders ) who had to physically stamp your passport , why aren't they using the available technology ???? -------- ps enjoy the city and the match !!! | |||
Tickets bought for the Champions League - €7 each approx | |||
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"I believe Croatia wants to join the Schengen Zone. I imagine that will happen only when the other Schengen countries are convinced its border is not porous." I once drove down from Split in North Croatia to Dubrovnik and there was no way to complete the trip without having to travel at least 10 miles through Bosnia Herzegovina. This was before either were in the EU. I wonder how that trip would work now? | |||
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"When we landed at Dubrovnik, BT sent me a message. Welcome to Croatia, data charges at 10p/MB etc. Once we crossed the border, BT sent me a message. Welcome to Bosnia, data charges at £5/MB etc. Fewer than 24 hours later and I had run up a bill of £162. Needless to say, I soon disabled that data stuff. Same bit of land - one part regulated by EU and one part not. Once the UK is out with EU regulation, just like Bosnia, I wonder if this will be the new norm?" Once we leave there's nothing stopping all mobile telecoms companies hiking the date charges through the roof. | |||
"When we landed at Dubrovnik, BT sent me a message. Welcome to Croatia, data charges at 10p/MB etc. Once we crossed the border, BT sent me a message. Welcome to Bosnia, data charges at £5/MB etc. Fewer than 24 hours later and I had run up a bill of £162. Needless to say, I soon disabled that data stuff. Same bit of land - one part regulated by EU and one part not. Once the UK is out with EU regulation, just like Bosnia, I wonder if this will be the new norm? Once we leave there's nothing stopping all mobile telecoms companies hiking the date charges through the roof. " Apart from the legislation that the Government have said that they will bring in to stop that happening! And that's without any consumer pressure. | |||
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"So we are leaving the EU so that we can make laws that . . . copy the EU rules we said we did not want?" Yes. We're going to independently copy every law that the EU brings in, to stay in sync so we can trade. But we're not going to be able to veto anything any more. We will have our freedom to have less freedom, and less influence, at more cost. That'll show them in the EU... | |||
"When we landed at Dubrovnik, BT sent me a message. Welcome to Croatia, data charges at 10p/MB etc. Once we crossed the border, BT sent me a message. Welcome to Bosnia, data charges at £5/MB etc. Fewer than 24 hours later and I had run up a bill of £162. Needless to say, I soon disabled that data stuff. Same bit of land - one part regulated by EU and one part not. Once the UK is out with EU regulation, just like Bosnia, I wonder if this will be the new norm?" You really should be enjoying your holiday rather than run up big bills posting on here.As i said many times you remainers need to chill out brexit will still be here when you get back. | |||
"So we are leaving the EU so that we can make laws that . . . copy the EU rules we said we did not want? Yes. We're going to independently copy every law that the EU brings in, to stay in sync so we can trade. But we're not going to be able to veto anything any more. We will have our freedom to have less freedom, and less influence, at more cost. That'll show them in the EU..." Freedom means freedom . Viva la brexit | |||
"When we landed at Dubrovnik, BT sent me a message. Welcome to Croatia, data charges at 10p/MB etc. Once we crossed the border, BT sent me a message. Welcome to Bosnia, data charges at £5/MB etc. Fewer than 24 hours later and I had run up a bill of £162. Needless to say, I soon disabled that data stuff. Same bit of land - one part regulated by EU and one part not. Once the UK is out with EU regulation, just like Bosnia, I wonder if this will be the new norm? Once we leave there's nothing stopping all mobile telecoms companies hiking the date charges through the roof. Apart from the legislation that the Government have said that they will bring in to stop that happening! And that's without any consumer pressure. " The government are looking to put a cap on data charges. Roaming charges could apply up to the cap. So no £100s of pounds worth of charges. Just £45pm charge. Operators may choose not to apply a charge. That would be my guess... To start with at least. Its harder to add back something... | |||
"So we are leaving the EU so that we can make laws that . . . copy the EU rules we said we did not want? Yes. We're going to independently copy every law that the EU brings in, to stay in sync so we can trade. But we're not going to be able to veto anything any more. We will have our freedom to have less freedom, and less influence, at more cost. That'll show them in the EU... Freedom means freedom . Viva la brexit "Vive le driot! You must always add Vive le driot after Vive le (or even viva la) BREXIT. It's just the done thing. | |||
"So we are leaving the EU so that we can make laws that . . . copy the EU rules we said we did not want? Yes. We're going to independently copy every law that the EU brings in, to stay in sync so we can trade. But we're not going to be able to veto anything any more. We will have our freedom to have less freedom, and less influence, at more cost. That'll show them in the EU... Freedom means freedom . Viva la brexit
Vive le driot!
You must always add Vive le driot after Vive le (or even viva la) BREXIT.
It's just the done thing.
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"Answers easy ...Unit Ireland and Brexit becomes the easiest negotiation in the world. I've a firm suspicion that some Tories would see that as a positive to get Brexit "  | |||
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"Here’s how you’re checkpoints will go: BANG and in FLAMES!!!!!!!!!!" That’s a useful and constructive response - well done you xx | |||
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"“The Irish Government has revealed the bad faith with which the EU has treated the border issue” Interesting reading - https://brexitcentral.com/the-irish-government-has-revealed-the-bad-faith-with-which-the-eu-has-treated-the-border-issue/ " Always even-handed and thougtful "articles" on that site | |||
"“The Irish Government has revealed the bad faith with which the EU has treated the border issue” Interesting reading - https://brexitcentral.com/the-irish-government-has-revealed-the-bad-faith-with-which-the-eu-has-treated-the-border-issue/ Always even-handed and thougtful "articles" on that site " | |||
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" 1. Mays deal (Crucially the backstop) finally being accepted. 2. A resumption to the troubles (which would be a disaster and must be avoided at all costs. 3. A United Ireland. (Btw this technological solution they blabber on about doesn’t exist - even a top civil servant admitted that) " If a solution (technological or otherwise) to Britain's land border with the EU existed, then there would be no reason to object to TM's deal on that basis. We only asked the EU to grant us the backstop, and we only have to adhere to it, while we find and implement a solution - once the solution has been implemented the backstop goes away. And this is the crazy world the brexiters have created for themselves. They object to the backstop because it ties us to EU regulations until such a time as we come up with a solution, and simultaneously tell us that there is no issue with the border because there's an easy solution. Holding two positions at the same time which contradict each other - the literal difiniton of doublethink. | |||
"As even handed and thoughtful as any other article that’s the opposite to your own thoughts Bet you haven’t read it " I'm a little confused by it tbh. It uses the fact Ireland will look for an alternative... But fails to mention this will be sub optimal and an ugly prospect and the backstop is an absolute red line for Ireland. | |||
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"As even handed and thoughtful as any other article that’s the opposite to your own thoughts Bet you haven’t read it " It's written like a child doing a comprehension. Understanding words but not meaning. It doesn't matter that there is no specific reference to customs or an open border. The point is to normalise the border which has always been open except for briefly during WWII. The Republic does not want a no deal exit. They desperately want to maintain trade with the UK as it is. However, like every other country, they would rather maintain the existing EU benefits. However, there is no option but for them to carry out checks on agricultural produce at the border. Depending on how the UK then drops it's standards to imports from China and the USA on both this and other products, then these checks may become more onerous. There are closed borders far longer than 300 miles long. Trump wants to close his. The UK will only be "locked" into a single market until it negotiates a trade deal or demonstrated a technology enabled border As has been pointed out, Brexiteers have said that this can be solved easily so it should only be a matter of weeks. Why the fear? Again, great piece of neutral writing By a Brexit Party MEP who's said publicly that he will profit financially from the property market volatility that Brexit has caused | |||
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"What it does highlight is the way in which the uk was unnecessarily backed in to a corner which the Eu knew would be impossible for the uk to move out of. Now the Irish government saying they can live without that hard border “corner” It’s another view point, for some it’s right, and others not. " Kudos for hanging in there
The moon landings are fake is another view point.
Vaccines are unnecessary is another view point.
The Earth is flat is another viewpoint. | |||
"What it does highlight is the way in which the uk was unnecessarily backed in to a corner which the Eu knew would be impossible for the uk to move out of. Now the Irish government saying they can live without that hard border “corner” It’s another view point, for some it’s right, and others not. Kudos for hanging in there
The moon landings are fake is another view point.
Vaccines are unnecessary is another view point.
The Earth is flat is another viewpoint."Thank you 
I’m guessing that for those viewpoints there are those who can produce fact / evidence for either side of these opinions.
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"What it does highlight is the way in which the uk was unnecessarily backed in to a corner which the Eu knew would be impossible for the uk to move out of. Now the Irish government saying they can live without that hard border “corner” It’s another view point, for some it’s right, and others not. " Depends what you mean by "live with". The Irish statement read to me as if their hand was forced, they would make do, but with some big step backs in their economy. Teby described the backstop as a red line. Why should Ireland take the hit for a UK decision? The UK can "live with" FoM and the CU and being part of the EU.... | |||
"Incorrect. Even if there was a strong economic argument for a united ireland any true unionist would still wish to stay within the union. We have no interest in Ireland, its culture or its economic benefits " Hi. Well said .At least you speak for the majority of residents in Northern Ireland. Glad that you have pointed this out to anyone reading the posts on here . | |||
"What it does highlight is the way in which the uk was unnecessarily backed in to a corner which the Eu knew would be impossible for the uk to move out of. Now the Irish government saying they can live without that hard border “corner” It’s another view point, for some it’s right, and others not. Kudos for hanging in there
The moon landings are fake is another view point.
Vaccines are unnecessary is another view point.
The Earth is flat is another viewpoint.
Thank you
I’m guessing that for those viewpoints there are those who can produce fact / evidence for either side of these opinions.
"They have what they call "evidence". You stated your position as " another point of view". Which it is. I agree with you as much as I agree with the other "points of view" | |||
"What it does highlight is the way in which the uk was unnecessarily backed in to a corner which the Eu knew would be impossible for the uk to move out of. Now the Irish government saying they can live without that hard border “corner” It’s another view point, for some it’s right, and others not. Kudos for hanging in there
The moon landings are fake is another view point.
Vaccines are unnecessary is another view point.
The Earth is flat is another viewpoint.
Thank you
I’m guessing that for those viewpoints there are those who can produce fact / evidence for either side of these opinions.
They have what they call "evidence".
You stated your position as " another point of view". Which it is.
I agree with you as much as I agree with the other "points of view" "no side any more correct than the other... | |||
"What it does highlight is the way in which the uk was unnecessarily backed in to a corner which the Eu knew would be impossible for the uk to move out of. Now the Irish government saying they can live without that hard border “corner” It’s another view point, for some it’s right, and others not. Kudos for hanging in there
The moon landings are fake is another view point.
Vaccines are unnecessary is another view point.
The Earth is flat is another viewpoint.
Thank you
I’m guessing that for those viewpoints there are those who can produce fact / evidence for either side of these opinions.
They have what they call "evidence".
You stated your position as " another point of view". Which it is.
I agree with you as much as I agree with the other "points of view"
no side any more correct than the other...
"If that's your opinion on the moon landings, vaccination and the shape of the Earth, that is your decision. The NI border may be rather more open to interpretation for me. | |||
"What it does highlight is the way in which the uk was unnecessarily backed in to a corner which the Eu knew would be impossible for the uk to move out of. Now the Irish government saying they can live without that hard border “corner” It’s another view point, for some it’s right, and others not. Kudos for hanging in there
The moon landings are fake is another view point.
Vaccines are unnecessary is another view point.
The Earth is flat is another viewpoint.
Thank you
I’m guessing that for those viewpoints there are those who can produce fact / evidence for either side of these opinions.
They have what they call "evidence".
You stated your position as " another point of view". Which it is.
I agree with you as much as I agree with the other "points of view"
no side any more correct than the other...
If that's your opinion on the moon landings, vaccination and the shape of the Earth, that is your decision.
The NI border may be rather more open to interpretation for me."I didn't offer my opinion on the moon landings, vaccination and the shape of the earth. I did offer a piece written by someone with an interesting and alternative narrative/opinion on the Irish border. | |||
"What it does highlight is the way in which the uk was unnecessarily backed in to a corner which the Eu knew would be impossible for the uk to move out of. Now the Irish government saying they can live without that hard border “corner” It’s another view point, for some it’s right, and others not. Kudos for hanging in there
The moon landings are fake is another view point.
Vaccines are unnecessary is another view point.
The Earth is flat is another viewpoint.
Thank you
I’m guessing that for those viewpoints there are those who can produce fact / evidence for either side of these opinions.
They have what they call "evidence".
You stated your position as " another point of view". Which it is.
I agree with you as much as I agree with the other "points of view"
no side any more correct than the other...
If that's your opinion on the moon landings, vaccination and the shape of the Earth, that is your decision.
The NI border may be rather more open to interpretation for me.
I didn't offer my opinion on the moon landings, vaccination and the shape of the earth.
I did offer a piece written by someone with an interesting and alternative narrative/opinion on the Irish border.
"...and it was poorly considered in my opinion. Bit bored now as we are not adding anything new. | |||
"What it does highlight is the way in which the uk was unnecessarily backed in to a corner which the Eu knew would be impossible for the uk to move out of. Now the Irish government saying they can live without that hard border “corner” It’s another view point, for some it’s right, and others not. Kudos for hanging in there
The moon landings are fake is another view point.
Vaccines are unnecessary is another view point.
The Earth is flat is another viewpoint.
Thank you
I’m guessing that for those viewpoints there are those who can produce fact / evidence for either side of these opinions.
They have what they call "evidence".
You stated your position as " another point of view". Which it is.
I agree with you as much as I agree with the other "points of view"
no side any more correct than the other...
If that's your opinion on the moon landings, vaccination and the shape of the Earth, that is your decision.
The NI border may be rather more open to interpretation for me.
I didn't offer my opinion on the moon landings, vaccination and the shape of the earth.
I did offer a piece written by someone with an interesting and alternative narrative/opinion on the Irish border.
...and it was poorly considered in my opinion.
Bit bored now as we are not adding anything new.""...and it was poorly considered in my opinion." which you are entitled to have Doesn't make the piece any less valid than a piece written by someone on the opposite side to the author... and so here we are again... | |||
" People in England aint got a clue about life in Northern Ireland. " 100% spot on! | |||
"Incorrect. Even if there was a strong economic argument for a united ireland any true unionist would still wish to stay within the union. We have no interest in Ireland, its culture or its economic benefits Hi. Well said .At least you speak for the majority of residents in Northern Ireland. Glad that you have pointed this out to anyone reading the posts on here . " Your being sarcastic right? | |||
"Incorrect. Even if there was a strong economic argument for a united ireland any true unionist would still wish to stay within the union. We have no interest in Ireland, its culture or its economic benefits Hi. Well said .At least you speak for the majority of residents in Northern Ireland. Glad that you have pointed this out to anyone reading the posts on here . Your being sarcastic right? " No, unfortunately they are not. | |||
"Incorrect. Even if there was a strong economic argument for a united ireland any true unionist would still wish to stay within the union. We have no interest in Ireland, its culture or its economic benefits Hi. Well said .At least you speak for the majority of residents in Northern Ireland. Glad that you have pointed this out to anyone reading the posts on here . Your being sarcastic right? No, unfortunately they are not. " Not surprising, most hard line unionist are horrible bigots, their culture is based on sectarian issues, if you could call it culture. They are a lost, confused, bitter folk. | |||
"I can only see 3 options , (1) The UK leaves The EU and a propper manned border is installed between the only place that The UK has a land border with The EU , thereby taking control of our borders ,,, (2) The UK leaves the EU with the island of Ireland becoming one independent country away from The UK .,,,(3) Stay as we are and cancel Brexit .. " 1) If the UK puts up a proper manned border then it breaks the good friday agreement. Before the GFA Ireland claimed the north as part of the republic, an occupied land. They gave this claim up in totality as part of the GFA, the UK in return said it would not hamper people traveling from north to south in any way. A simple promise to make when we were both in the EU. It should be noted that if the UK breaks the GFA then the EU and America have already said they will recognise the north as part of Ireland. The US in particular has openly said that such a move would likely mean no trade between the US and UK. 2) The north could rejoin the south, but that is the norths choice and the UK or the EU or Ireland can not decide it for them. 3) Its possible brexit could be cancelled but its not likely. But there are other options. 4) Put in an electronic mid sea check point. This would only need to tell the republic what goods enter and leave the north. This would allow some goods to flow into the south, but none to exit Ireland to the rest of the EU. 5) put in actual checkpoints between the UK and the North. People might scoff at this idea, but it gives them more control of THEIR borders as it will stop stuff flowing into the UK mainland that comes up through the republic into the north then shipped over. 6) Leave the North aligned with the EU. That would mean every single product flowing into the north would have to meet EU laws etc. Although this would be hated by brexiters it could also prop up northern Ireland as allowing companies to move offices to the north and have an office in the EU but still in the UK. Proping up the north would be helpful as it would stop it breaking away, and it is currently a drain on the UK. There is also the option that the UK will likely take. 7) hard brexit and do nothing with the border at all, and force the EU to step in to build a border, this would mean they stuck to the GFA. | |||
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"I can only see 3 options , (1) The UK leaves The EU and a propper manned border is installed between the only place that The UK has a land border with The EU , thereby taking control of our borders ,,, (2) The UK leaves the EU with the island of Ireland becoming one independent country away from The UK .,,,(3) Stay as we are and cancel Brexit .. 1) If the UK puts up a proper manned border then it breaks the good friday agreement. Before the GFA Ireland claimed the north as part of the republic, an occupied land. They gave this claim up in totality as part of the GFA, the UK in return said it would not hamper people traveling from north to south in any way. A simple promise to make when we were both in the EU. It should be noted that if the UK breaks the GFA then the EU and America have already said they will recognise the north as part of Ireland. The US in particular has openly said that such a move would likely mean no trade between the US and UK. 2) The north could rejoin the south, but that is the norths choice and the UK or the EU or Ireland can not decide it for them. 3) Its possible brexit could be cancelled but its not likely. But there are other options. 4) Put in an electronic mid sea check point. This would only need to tell the republic what goods enter and leave the north. This would allow some goods to flow into the south, but none to exit Ireland to the rest of the EU. 5) put in actual checkpoints between the UK and the North. People might scoff at this idea, but it gives them more control of THEIR borders as it will stop stuff flowing into the UK mainland that comes up through the republic into the north then shipped over. 6) Leave the North aligned with the EU. That would mean every single product flowing into the north would have to meet EU laws etc. Although this would be hated by brexiters it could also prop up northern Ireland as allowing companies to move offices to the north and have an office in the EU but still in the UK. Proping up the north would be helpful as it would stop it breaking away, and it is currently a drain on the UK. There is also the option that the UK will likely take. 7) hard brexit and do nothing with the border at all, and force the EU to step in to build a border, this would mean they stuck to the GFA." I think 7 creates other issues for us. Under MFN rules I understand if we allow goods for Ireland in unchecked and without tariffs then all nations should have the same treatment... | |||
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"Incorrect. Even if there was a strong economic argument for a united ireland any true unionist would still wish to stay within the union. We have no interest in Ireland, its culture or its economic benefits Hi. Well said .At least you speak for the majority of residents in Northern Ireland. Glad that you have pointed this out to anyone reading the posts on here . Your being sarcastic right? No, unfortunately they are not. Not surprising, most hard line unionist are horrible bigots, their culture is based on sectarian issues, if you could call it culture. They are a lost, confused, bitter folk. " Your post would tend to suggest that it is you who is the bigot. You have made a statement with no evidence to back it up . It is rather ironic that you have chosen to make your comments on a UK based site . | |||
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"If 17 million people voted for the UK to leave the EU , in order to take control of our borders then , quite simply 17 million people voted for us to place a border between Northern Ireland and The Republic , if they didn't want a border between the Uk and the EU but voted for a border between the UK and the EU , then I am afraid that the term that the "leavers" dislike so much might actually be true " you didn't know what you were voting for"" Taking back control of our borders was one of the biggest Brexit mantras. In order to take control of a border there needs to be a border erected to be controlled. So, how do you take control over something that doesn't exist. | |||
"There won’t be a border " There won't be Brexit or we will remain in the EEA then. | |||
"I can only see 3 options , (1) The UK leaves The EU and a propper manned border is installed between the only place that The UK has a land border with The EU , thereby taking control of our borders ,,, (2) The UK leaves the EU with the island of Ireland becoming one independent country away from The UK .,,,(3) Stay as we are and cancel Brexit .. 1) If the UK puts up a proper manned border then it breaks the good friday agreement. Before the GFA Ireland claimed the north as part of the republic, an occupied land. They gave this claim up in totality as part of the GFA, the UK in return said it would not hamper people traveling from north to south in any way. A simple promise to make when we were both in the EU. It should be noted that if the UK breaks the GFA then the EU and America have already said they will recognise the north as part of Ireland. The US in particular has openly said that such a move would likely mean no trade between the US and UK. 2) The north could rejoin the south, but that is the norths choice and the UK or the EU or Ireland can not decide it for them. 3) Its possible brexit could be cancelled but its not likely. But there are other options. 4) Put in an electronic mid sea check point. This would only need to tell the republic what goods enter and leave the north. This would allow some goods to flow into the south, but none to exit Ireland to the rest of the EU. 5) put in actual checkpoints between the UK and the North. People might scoff at this idea, but it gives them more control of THEIR borders as it will stop stuff flowing into the UK mainland that comes up through the republic into the north then shipped over. 6) Leave the North aligned with the EU. That would mean every single product flowing into the north would have to meet EU laws etc. Although this would be hated by brexiters it could also prop up northern Ireland as allowing companies to move offices to the north and have an office in the EU but still in the UK. Proping up the north would be helpful as it would stop it breaking away, and it is currently a drain on the UK. There is also the option that the UK will likely take. 7) hard brexit and do nothing with the border at all, and force the EU to step in to build a border, this would mean they stuck to the GFA." All of your options are unacceptable to the DUP. The question is, what does the DUP actually want? | |||
"There won’t be a border There won't be Brexit or we will remain in the EEA then." In your opinion | |||
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"Now as boris will be the new pm, it looks like it will be a hard border and then of the good friday agreement and the union, can eu do something to still keep northern ireand in the eu?" Nothing that hasn't already been suggested | |||
"I can only see 3 options , (1) The UK leaves The EU and a propper manned border is installed between the only place that The UK has a land border with The EU , thereby taking control of our borders ,,, (2) The UK leaves the EU with the island of Ireland becoming one independent country away from The UK .,,,(3) Stay as we are and cancel Brexit .. 1) If the UK puts up a proper manned border then it breaks the good friday agreement. Before the GFA Ireland claimed the north as part of the republic, an occupied land. They gave this claim up in totality as part of the GFA, the UK in return said it would not hamper people traveling from north to south in any way. A simple promise to make when we were both in the EU. It should be noted that if the UK breaks the GFA then the EU and America have already said they will recognise the north as part of Ireland. The US in particular has openly said that such a move would likely mean no trade between the US and UK. 2) The north could rejoin the south, but that is the norths choice and the UK or the EU or Ireland can not decide it for them. 3) Its possible brexit could be cancelled but its not likely. But there are other options. 4) Put in an electronic mid sea check point. This would only need to tell the republic what goods enter and leave the north. This would allow some goods to flow into the south, but none to exit Ireland to the rest of the EU. 5) put in actual checkpoints between the UK and the North. People might scoff at this idea, but it gives them more control of THEIR borders as it will stop stuff flowing into the UK mainland that comes up through the republic into the north then shipped over. 6) Leave the North aligned with the EU. That would mean every single product flowing into the north would have to meet EU laws etc. Although this would be hated by brexiters it could also prop up northern Ireland as allowing companies to move offices to the north and have an office in the EU but still in the UK. Proping up the north would be helpful as it would stop it breaking away, and it is currently a drain on the UK. There is also the option that the UK will likely take. 7) hard brexit and do nothing with the border at all, and force the EU to step in to build a border, this would mean they stuck to the GFA. All of your options are unacceptable to the DUP. The question is, what does the DUP actually want?" I genuinely have no idea what the DUP want. Does anyone know? | |||
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"I can only see 3 options , (1) The UK leaves The EU and a propper manned border is installed between the only place that The UK has a land border with The EU , thereby taking control of our borders ,,, (2) The UK leaves the EU with the island of Ireland becoming one independent country away from The UK .,,,(3) Stay as we are and cancel Brexit .. 1) If the UK puts up a proper manned border then it breaks the good friday agreement. Before the GFA Ireland claimed the north as part of the republic, an occupied land. They gave this claim up in totality as part of the GFA, the UK in return said it would not hamper people traveling from north to south in any way. A simple promise to make when we were both in the EU. It should be noted that if the UK breaks the GFA then the EU and America have already said they will recognise the north as part of Ireland. The US in particular has openly said that such a move would likely mean no trade between the US and UK. 2) The north could rejoin the south, but that is the norths choice and the UK or the EU or Ireland can not decide it for them. 3) Its possible brexit could be cancelled but its not likely. But there are other options. 4) Put in an electronic mid sea check point. This would only need to tell the republic what goods enter and leave the north. This would allow some goods to flow into the south, but none to exit Ireland to the rest of the EU. 5) put in actual checkpoints between the UK and the North. People might scoff at this idea, but it gives them more control of THEIR borders as it will stop stuff flowing into the UK mainland that comes up through the republic into the north then shipped over. 6) Leave the North aligned with the EU. That would mean every single product flowing into the north would have to meet EU laws etc. Although this would be hated by brexiters it could also prop up northern Ireland as allowing companies to move offices to the north and have an office in the EU but still in the UK. Proping up the north would be helpful as it would stop it breaking away, and it is currently a drain on the UK. There is also the option that the UK will likely take. 7) hard brexit and do nothing with the border at all, and force the EU to step in to build a border, this would mean they stuck to the GFA. All of your options are unacceptable to the DUP. The question is, what does the DUP actually want? I genuinely have no idea what the DUP want. Does anyone know?" I often find if you don't know the answer to a question ,the answer almost always is money! Lots of it! | |||
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"Now as boris will be the new pm, it looks like it will be a hard border and then of the good friday agreement and the union, can eu do something to still keep northern ireand in the eu? Nothing that hasn't already been suggested " That is right, but we can hope for the best | |||
"Now as boris will be the new pm, it looks like it will be a hard border and then of the good friday agreement and the union, can eu do something to still keep northern ireand in the eu? Nothing that hasn't already been suggested That is right, but we can hope for the best "That’s the right spirit Shag be positive
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"Now as boris will be the new pm, it looks like it will be a hard border and then of the good friday agreement and the union, can eu do something to still keep northern ireand in the eu? Nothing that hasn't already been suggested That is right, but we can hope for the best
That’s the right spirit Shag be positive
"That is right, we all have to be positive | |||
"Now as boris will be the new pm, it looks like it will be a hard border and then of the good friday agreement and the union, can eu do something to still keep northern ireand in the eu? Nothing that hasn't already been suggested That is right, but we can hope for the best
That’s the right spirit Shag be positive
That is right, we all have to be positive "Indeed, but is positive the same as realistic | |||
"Now as boris will be the new pm, it looks like it will be a hard border and then of the good friday agreement and the union, can eu do something to still keep northern ireand in the eu? Nothing that hasn't already been suggested That is right, but we can hope for the best
That’s the right spirit Shag be positive
That is right, we all have to be positive
Indeed, but is positive the same as realistic
"
you could be realistically positive ?
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"There won’t be a border There won't be Brexit or we will remain in the EEA then. In your opinion " Yep. That's what you provided | |||
"Now as boris will be the new pm, it looks like it will be a hard border and then of the good friday agreement and the union, can eu do something to still keep northern ireand in the eu? Nothing that hasn't already been suggested That is right, but we can hope for the best
That’s the right spirit Shag be positive
That is right, we all have to be positive
Indeed, but is positive the same as realistic
you could be realistically positive ?
"I am perfectly happy and content with many aspects of my life and feel exceptionally positive about them. What difference does being positive about this make of the information available to me indicates that it will not work out awfully well? Are you selling a book?
Perhaps you should more pessimistic so that you aren't disappointed? | |||
"Now as boris will be the new pm, it looks like it will be a hard border and then of the good friday agreement and the union, can eu do something to still keep northern ireand in the eu? Nothing that hasn't already been suggested That is right, but we can hope for the best
That’s the right spirit Shag be positive
That is right, we all have to be positive
Indeed, but is positive the same as realistic
you could be realistically positive ?
I am perfectly happy and content with many aspects of my life and feel exceptionally positive about them.
What difference does being positive about this make of the information available to me indicates that it will not work out awfully well?
Are you selling a book?
Perhaps you should more pessimistic so that you aren't disappointed?"Thanks, but let’s see what just-Andy thinks | |||
"Now as boris will be the new pm, it looks like it will be a hard border and then of the good friday agreement and the union, can eu do something to still keep northern ireand in the eu? Nothing that hasn't already been suggested That is right, but we can hope for the best
That’s the right spirit Shag be positive
That is right, we all have to be positive
Indeed, but is positive the same as realistic
you could be realistically positive ?
"Indeed but when some are being being realistically positive it's just relative to their mindset | |||
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" If a solution (technological or otherwise) to Britain's land border with the EU existed, then there would be no reason to object to TM's deal on that basis. " Where is this technology I keep hearing about. After October 31, if you want to drive in Europe you'll need to buy a piece of cardboard from the Post Office and ask the clerk to glue your picture to it and write down your name with a black biro pen. Now, if we can't even do that electronically . . . | |||
