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is labour now a remain party.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
The Euros were about one issue.
A General Election is much more nuanced.
That said, I agree their policy is difficult to communicate - it doesn't translate into a sound-byte.
But they are the only party from what I can see who are trying to bridge the divide - yes, leave the EU (52 %) , but do so in a way that keeps us close (48 %).
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By *ostafun OP Man
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"The Euros were about one issue.
A General Election is much more nuanced.
That said, I agree their policy is difficult to communicate - it doesn't translate into a sound-byte.
But they are the only party from what I can see who are trying to bridge the divide - yes, leave the EU (52 %) , but do so in a way that keeps us close (48 %).
"
They are going to have to make their mind up now and its seems by what thornberry is saying they will now be a remain party. |
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By *elshyXOMan
over a year ago
Newcastle |
I think the penny has dropped for Labour that backing a Peoples Vote is now the best chance they have to see off the Tories.
The larger issue is that Corbyn has sat on the fence for too long so this is a bit like closing the stable door once the horse has bolted.
Labours only real chance of moving forward is by having a new leadership race amongst themselves & forming their backbenchers et al as a definitive Remain party, even at that point though they’ll no regain lost supporters who will turn towards BXP or other right wing parties, so they’ll have to come more in line with the Lib-Dems & Green parties. I think theyre best served going as far left as possible in the coming years |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
In one sense, Labour is learning from the Norwegian model.
They had a referendum on joining the EU.
Narrow vote against.
They found a consensus by joining the free-trade area as a non-EU member.
No-one got exactly what they voted for - it's call compromise.
The problem here is that 52 per cent of the population demand 100 per cent of the outcome (even allowing for the fact no-one can agree on what it even looks like).
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Many senior Labour MP's, such as Emily Thornberry, John McDonnell, Tom Watson and Keir Starmer, are positioning themselves on the wrong side of the argument.
It's really only remainers who want a second referendum. Leavers just want brexit delivered.
As we know, in 2016 the vote was 52% Brexit / 48% Remain
In 2017, 83% of voters voted for a party committed to delivering Brexit.
And as we've seen from these results, the Brexit Party - which didn't even exist some 6 weeks ago, wiped the floor with all the other parties across the country (with the exception of Scotland and London).
In some areas, they got more than double the number of votes of their closest rivals.
The problem with most MP's is they always try and spin poor performance into something positive - and they always say 'we have to listen' and 'we've got to learn from this' - but of course they never, ever do.
A prime example of this was last night, when results were coming in, Suzanne Evans (formerly of UKIP) actually told Emily Thornberry that she (and colleagues) had been out talking to people on the doorstep and voters were telling her why they were changing who they were supporting, and Emily Thornberry completely ignored everything she had just been told about why voters were deserting Labour and tried to read something into the results that were coming in - and THAT's the problem.
They're just not listening |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"Many senior Labour MP's, such as Emily Thornberry, John McDonnell, Tom Watson and Keir Starmer, are positioning themselves on the wrong side of the argument.
It's really only remainers who want a second referendum. Leavers just want brexit delivered.
As we know, in 2016 the vote was 52% Brexit / 48% Remain
In 2017, 83% of voters voted for a party committed to delivering Brexit.
And as we've seen from these results, the Brexit Party - which didn't even exist some 6 weeks ago, wiped the floor with all the other parties across the country (with the exception of Scotland and London).
In some areas, they got more than double the number of votes of their closest rivals.
The problem with most MP's is they always try and spin poor performance into something positive - and they always say 'we have to listen' and 'we've got to learn from this' - but of course they never, ever do.
A prime example of this was last night, when results were coming in, Suzanne Evans (formerly of UKIP) actually told Emily Thornberry that she (and colleagues) had been out talking to people on the doorstep and voters were telling her why they were changing who they were supporting, and Emily Thornberry completely ignored everything she had just been told about why voters were deserting Labour and tried to read something into the results that were coming in - and THAT's the problem.
They're just not listening"
Following your own logic, support for Brexit has dropped from 52 % to 33 %.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Let’s just put it out there, Jeremy Corbyn is the shittest leader of the labour party.
The Man probably needs a committee on which way to tie his shoelaces.
I don’t think they chanted “oh, Jeremy Corbyn”, it was actually “No Jeremy Corbyn”
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"The Euros were about one issue.
A General Election is much more nuanced.
That said, I agree their policy is difficult to communicate - it doesn't translate into a sound-byte.
But they are the only party from what I can see who are trying to bridge the divide - yes, leave the EU (52 %) , but do so in a way that keeps us close (48 %).
They are going to have to make their mind up now and its seems by what thornberry is saying they will now be a remain party."
Labour have lost me for good now |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Corbyn just committed to a public vote on the terms of any exit.
 "
he didn't on the interview he did on sky.... he said nothing has changes and looked like a face of thunder! his people on twitter are saying its another coup against corbyn!
his position was that nothing would change till party conference.....
frustrating because there is a small chunk at the top of labour that don't see the writing on the wall.... |
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By *ancadamMan
over a year ago
Stockport |
"In one sense, Labour is learning from the Norwegian model.
They had a referendum on joining the EU.
Narrow vote against.
They found a consensus by joining the free-trade area as a non-EU member.
No-one got exactly what they voted for - it's call compromise.
The problem here is that 52 per cent of the population demand 100 per cent of the outcome (even allowing for the fact no-one can agree on what it even looks like).
"
spot on analysis! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The Euros were about one issue.
A General Election is much more nuanced.
That said, I agree their policy is difficult to communicate - it doesn't translate into a sound-byte.
But they are the only party from what I can see who are trying to bridge the divide - yes, leave the EU (52 %) , but do so in a way that keeps us close (48 %).
They are going to have to make their mind up now and its seems by what thornberry is saying they will now be a remain party."
Thornberry isn't the party leader or party membership though. It's not for her to choose. |
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"Corbyn just committed to a public vote on the terms of any exit.
"
No...just on the final deal, as long as the party supported it.
Or was that another Corbyn semi fudge, non committal answer to the European question? (and why does he recognise that his failure to give a decisive answer costs credibility, trust and votes) |
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Labour needs to be a leave party, as most die hard labour supporters are working class anti EU. Then the pro remain labour supporters (middle class) need to go back to the liberals where they should be. |
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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
It appears to be a criticism of Labour that they have sat on the fence ,,, however , they are probably tho only party realising that the referendum was 52/48 ( and if held today would probably be 46/54 ) , every other party seem to be treating the results as 100/0 or 0/100 |
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Of course Labour is a remain party, but then again it could be a leave party. Wait a minute, does it want a second referendum?
It could be a no deal party, then again it might agree to a deal.
Today it could be any one of those, tomorrow who knows?
Confused? You will be after the next episode of Soap.  |
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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago
south west , continental |
There is a remain party, the Lib dems. If anyone is serious about remaining in the EU then come a general election this party should win hands down. I am constantly told here that Brexiteers are now in the minority, Remainers are the dominant force. Remainers are right, brexiteers are wrong. Funny though how a bloke that retired gets together a party in six weeks and won quite a few EU seats. Odd that. So if you Remainer folk are serious about the EU from now on you need to ditch your standard party colours and vote lib dem, they are the remain party, the others are just wishy washy can't make my mind up professional con artists, sorry politicians. |
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"There is a remain party, the Lib dems. If anyone is serious about remaining in the EU then come a general election this party should win hands down. I am constantly told here that Brexiteers are now in the minority, Remainers are the dominant force. Remainers are right, brexiteers are wrong. Funny though how a bloke that retired gets together a party in six weeks and won quite a few EU seats. Odd that. So if you Remainer folk are serious about the EU from now on you need to ditch your standard party colours and vote lib dem, they are the remain party, the others are just wishy washy can't make my mind up professional con artists, sorry politicians. "
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Jeremy Corbyn: "There has to be an agreement and there has to be a public vote on it."
To mean, that means a second referendum, once Parliament has agreed on something but before it becomes formalised in UK and EU law.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"Labour needs to be a leave party, as most die hard labour supporters are working class anti EU. Then the pro remain labour supporters (middle class) need to go back to the liberals where they should be. "
Two-thirds of Labour supporters voted Remain.
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The labour party at the last GE managed to influence a huge shift in popularity towards their goals and plans. If they work intelligently, they can continue to help to educate people as well as provide a solid plan, upon what is right for the country as a whole, rather than for a small subset of nation. I think they will move to clearly support a referendum on the relationship with the EU, if there's not a general election first; Labour's GE manifesto would likely include a definite referendum. I'm unsure whether they'll declar themselves a full remain party though. Probably the next few weeks will reveal more about this. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I wondered about that, too.
What Labour might campaign for in a referendum.
Corbyn may well stay neutral, allowing members a free vote either way.
That way, he can stay above the fray and simply promise to implement either outcome.
It's what Cameron should have done in 2016. Instead, he was hung by his own petard and had to go. |
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"I wondered about that, too.
What Labour might campaign for in a referendum.
Corbyn may well stay neutral, allowing members a free vote either way.
That way, he can stay above the fray and simply promise to implement either outcome.
It's what Cameron should have done in 2016. Instead, he was hung by his own petard and had to go."
His petard was busy with a pigs head......but he should have been hung by it. A local newspaper is reporting that he is currently bored and is looking to contest the Sevenoaks seat for the Tories.
You really couldn't make that up. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Labour will become a referendum party to hoover up the leave voters in the same way as the tories did it two GE ago.
Today's lib dems voters will swing over through a combination of wanting the second voye but also through some justifation from the coalition years.
Come a people's vote they will be equally as split.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Well that will split the party ...many Labour mps...represent leave voters ....that will please them"
If you believe the current brexit story, these have deserted already! |
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"Well that will split the party ...many Labour mps...represent leave voters ....that will please them"
This will see if Corbyn has what it takes if he backs a second vote he could well loose a few of his mp’s after all he backed a leave now he has to stand up |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
Labour has lost 2,000,000 leave voters since 2017.
If they decide to position themselves as the party of a liberal bourgeois dictatorship and ignore the result of the referendum, and break their promise to uphold it, they will also lose mine. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
the truth is corbyn was never a remainer... but he let his own feeling dictate party policy, which is why we have ended up with this fudge of GE first and only then will we consider a 2nd ref...
before the lib dems have come out loud and proud for a 2nd ref... they have stolen labours big patch, can labour get it back.... i don't think they can with the likes of corbyn, milne, long-bailey, gardner and others in big positions...
i do like watsons and starmers position, but they will get slapped down anything they disagree with the corbynista.....
until his "cult" break from him, i don't think labours position will change |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Labour has lost 2,000,000 leave voters since 2017.
If they decide to position themselves as the party of a liberal bourgeois dictatorship and ignore the result of the referendum, and break their promise to uphold it, they will also lose mine. "
classic example of why labour lost in london and will struggle in manchester, liverpool, bristol, sheffield.........
not a single lesson learnt.... |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Labour has lost 2,000,000 leave voters since 2017.
If they decide to position themselves as the party of a liberal bourgeois dictatorship and ignore the result of the referendum, and break their promise to uphold it, they will also lose mine.
classic example of why labour lost in london and will struggle in manchester, liverpool, bristol, sheffield.........
not a single lesson learnt...."
70% of Labour constituencies voted leave, and constituencies are what win you seats in a FPTP system.
That, and it's now only extremists who think it's acceptable to ignore democracy, especially after those results for the BREXIT party.
If people want to vote lib Dem and reap another 5 years of austerity, they truly are mugs. At least ChangeUK are now dead. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Funnily enough its people like you, Fabio who are directly responsible for the rise of the BREXIT party.
"
not me.... i am one of those people who bit my tongue and voted for corbyn at the last general election, but have now bolted and don't think i'll be back whilst "this" person leads that labour party...
I'm done....
I live in a place that voted remain, and the funny thing is i apologised to the labour person who was campaigning, i don't believe it is the activists on the ground, i think the higher up wants to talk out of both sides...
if you stand in the middle... prepare to get run over from both ways... last night you got run over by remainers and see when it all went...
if you think that is coming back in a GE, under this policy, i think you are in for a rude awakening..... |
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"Funnily enough its people like you, Fabio who are directly responsible for the rise of the BREXIT party.
"
Complete bollocks.
The Brexit party has the former UKIP vote and a big chunk of the Tory vote.
The idea that Farage's success is all down to Labour voters is pure fantasy.
But you go on supporting a Brexit that will lead to Britain becoming more right wing, and a de-regulated tax haven for the rich to fill their boots at the expense of the 99%. |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Funnily enough its people like you, Fabio who are directly responsible for the rise of the BREXIT party.
not me.... i am one of those people who bit my tongue and voted for corbyn at the last general election, but have now bolted and don't think i'll be back whilst "this" person leads that labour party...
I'm done....
I live in a place that voted remain, and the funny thing is i apologised to the labour person who was campaigning, i don't believe it is the activists on the ground, i think the higher up wants to talk out of both sides...
if you stand in the middle... prepare to get run over from both ways... last night you got run over by remainers and see when it all went...
if you think that is coming back in a GE, under this policy, i think you are in for a rude awakening....."
Leave romped that election:
Leave (no deal):
BREX 31.7, UKIP 3.6 Total: 36.3
Leave with a deal:
Labour:14.1 Con 8.7 Total 22.8
Remain: Lib Dems: 18.5, Green:11.1
ChUk:2.9 SNP:3.3
Total: 36.2
Total Leave: 59.1
Total remain: 36.2 |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Funnily enough its people like you, Fabio who are directly responsible for the rise of the BREXIT party.
Complete bollocks.
The Brexit party has the former UKIP vote and a big chunk of the Tory vote.
The idea that Farage's success is all down to Labour voters is pure fantasy.
But you go on supporting a Brexit that will lead to Britain becoming more right wing, and a de-regulated tax haven for the rich to fill their boots at the expense of the 99%. "
Total bollocks, people are tired of their votes being ignored, so they went out and voted BREXIT.
Keep spouting the BREXIT is right wing bollocks if it suits your delusion, and watch the far right capitalise on the disillusionment of the voters. |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"The only reason Leave won’t accept a 2nd Referendum is they know they’d lose. There is not a majority of the voting population in 2019 that wants a Hard Brexit."
But the majority do want BREXIT as above.
Why would there be a second vote when parliament promised to implement the result of the first?
The only way a second vote is democratic is if it comes after the first has actually been implemented for a period of time. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Funnily enough its people like you, Fabio who are directly responsible for the rise of the BREXIT party.
not me.... i am one of those people who bit my tongue and voted for corbyn at the last general election, but have now bolted and don't think i'll be back whilst "this" person leads that labour party...
I'm done....
I live in a place that voted remain, and the funny thing is i apologised to the labour person who was campaigning, i don't believe it is the activists on the ground, i think the higher up wants to talk out of both sides...
if you stand in the middle... prepare to get run over from both ways... last night you got run over by remainers and see when it all went...
if you think that is coming back in a GE, under this policy, i think you are in for a rude awakening.....
Leave romped that election:
Leave (no deal):
BREX 31.7, UKIP 3.6 Total: 36.3
Leave with a deal:
Labour:14.1 Con 8.7 Total 22.8
Remain: Lib Dems: 18.5, Green:11.1
ChUk:2.9 SNP:3.3
Total: 36.2
Total Leave: 59.1
Total remain: 36.2"
you skewing statistics to suit a narrative.... hmmmm....
so lets look at the raw data shall we....
tweets "curtosy" of fasal isalm (him from the parish of sky news now about to become political editor at the bbc)
"BXP results make a new Tory leader backing No Deal by Oct 31st position almost certain...
But...
9.1 million people just voted for parties explicitly against No Deal (LD/G/L/CH/SNP...) ... vs 5.8m explicitly in favour...(BXP+Ukip)
By the way that is the second consecutive national poll after the General Election 2017 where manifestos against No Deal have got a majority of popular votes - and on a lower turnout, that majority against has now increase
.. also the number so far make it far from clear that the entirety of the Conservative vote share loss went to Brexit Party - assuming some Labour to BXP too - then a small but electorally important band of long forgotten Con Remainers went to Libs/CHUK too
Anyway this heads towards a non-elected new PM of a minority Government using Royal Prerogative late on at an EU Summit to go for No Deal on basis of 2016 popular mandate, with No Deal not having received popular vote mandates at subsequent national elections in 2017 & 2019 |
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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
"The only reason Leave won’t accept a 2nd Referendum is they know they’d lose. There is not a majority of the voting population in 2019 that wants a Hard Brexit."
. A second referendum should have been promised on any negotiated settlement if a leave vote was the winner in 2016 ,,,,,,,, as was suggested by Jacob Rees Mogg
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Funnily enough its people like you, Fabio who are directly responsible for the rise of the BREXIT party.
not me.... i am one of those people who bit my tongue and voted for corbyn at the last general election, but have now bolted and don't think i'll be back whilst "this" person leads that labour party...
I'm done....
I live in a place that voted remain, and the funny thing is i apologised to the labour person who was campaigning, i don't believe it is the activists on the ground, i think the higher up wants to talk out of both sides...
if you stand in the middle... prepare to get run over from both ways... last night you got run over by remainers and see when it all went...
if you think that is coming back in a GE, under this policy, i think you are in for a rude awakening.....
Leave romped that election:
Leave (no deal):
BREX 31.7, UKIP 3.6 Total: 36.3
Leave with a deal:
Labour:14.1 Con 8.7 Total 22.8
Remain: Lib Dems: 18.5, Green:11.1
ChUk:2.9 SNP:3.3
Total: 36.2
Total Leave: 59.1
Total remain: 36.2
you skewing statistics to suit a narrative.... hmmmm....
so lets look at the raw data shall we....
tweets "curtosy" of fasal isalm (him from the parish of sky news now about to become political editor at the bbc)
"BXP results make a new Tory leader backing No Deal by Oct 31st position almost certain...
But...
9.1 million people just voted for parties explicitly against No Deal (LD/G/L/CH/SNP...) ... vs 5.8m explicitly in favour...(BXP+Ukip)
By the way that is the second consecutive national poll after the General Election 2017 where manifestos against No Deal have got a majority of popular votes - and on a lower turnout, that majority against has now increase
.. also the number so far make it far from clear that the entirety of the Conservative vote share loss went to Brexit Party - assuming some Labour to BXP too - then a small but electorally important band of long forgotten Con Remainers went to Libs/CHUK too
Anyway this heads towards a non-elected new PM of a minority Government using Royal Prerogative late on at an EU Summit to go for No Deal on basis of 2016 popular mandate, with No Deal not having received popular vote mandates at subsequent national elections in 2017 & 2019"
I'm not sqewing anything.
Those are the votes cast and in each case, that is the party's stance on BREXIT.
I took them directly from the results and added them up.
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In Scotland, it's a defunct party. Under Blair, it became Tory-lite in order to win general elections; which is fair enough.
However, it's no use if you want genuine opposition to Tory government; which is why it's died on its arse up here. |
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"Labour needs to be a leave party, as most die hard labour supporters are working class anti EU. Then the pro remain labour supporters (middle class) need to go back to the liberals where they should be. "
Tosh. Most Labour Party members are Remainers |
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"Funnily enough its people like you, Fabio who are directly responsible for the rise of the BREXIT party.
not me.... i am one of those people who bit my tongue and voted for corbyn at the last general election, but have now bolted and don't think i'll be back whilst "this" person leads that labour party...
I'm done....
I live in a place that voted remain, and the funny thing is i apologised to the labour person who was campaigning, i don't believe it is the activists on the ground, i think the higher up wants to talk out of both sides...
if you stand in the middle... prepare to get run over from both ways... last night you got run over by remainers and see when it all went...
if you think that is coming back in a GE, under this policy, i think you are in for a rude awakening.....
Leave romped that election:
Leave (no deal):
BREX 31.7, UKIP 3.6 Total: 36.3
Leave with a deal:
Labour:14.1 Con 8.7 Total 22.8
Remain: Lib Dems: 18.5, Green:11.1
ChUk:2.9 SNP:3.3
Total: 36.2
Total Leave: 59.1
Total remain: 36.2
you skewing statistics to suit a narrative.... hmmmm....
so lets look at the raw data shall we....
tweets "curtosy" of fasal isalm (him from the parish of sky news now about to become political editor at the bbc)
"BXP results make a new Tory leader backing No Deal by Oct 31st position almost certain...
But...
9.1 million people just voted for parties explicitly against No Deal (LD/G/L/CH/SNP...) ... vs 5.8m explicitly in favour...(BXP+Ukip)
By the way that is the second consecutive national poll after the General Election 2017 where manifestos against No Deal have got a majority of popular votes - and on a lower turnout, that majority against has now increase
.. also the number so far make it far from clear that the entirety of the Conservative vote share loss went to Brexit Party - assuming some Labour to BXP too - then a small but electorally important band of long forgotten Con Remainers went to Libs/CHUK too
Anyway this heads towards a non-elected new PM of a minority Government using Royal Prerogative late on at an EU Summit to go for No Deal on basis of 2016 popular mandate, with No Deal not having received popular vote mandates at subsequent national elections in 2017 & 2019
I'm not sqewing anything.
Those are the votes cast and in each case, that is the party's stance on BREXIT.
I took them directly from the results and added them up.
"
It is disingenuous to pretend that Labour's commitment to implement Brexit is the same as Frottage's. Labour have been clear that it is leave With a deal, BRX Party want No deal. The two are completely different stances |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
If they decide to position themselves as the party of a liberal bourgeois dictatorship and ignore the result of the referendum, and break their promise to uphold it, they will also lose mine. "
Lolol
I love the irony of people saying how proud they are to have voted to get rid of a dictatorship.
Lololol
Labour values are the values of internationalism.
Brexit is insular, parochial and runs counter to those values.
What Corbyn is saying is that whatever exit agreement is cooked up - be it by the Conservatives or by Labour - it should be ratified by the public before being adopted in law.
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Funnily enough its people like you, Fabio who are directly responsible for the rise of the BREXIT party.
not me.... i am one of those people who bit my tongue and voted for corbyn at the last general election, but have now bolted and don't think i'll be back whilst "this" person leads that labour party...
I'm done....
I live in a place that voted remain, and the funny thing is i apologised to the labour person who was campaigning, i don't believe it is the activists on the ground, i think the higher up wants to talk out of both sides...
if you stand in the middle... prepare to get run over from both ways... last night you got run over by remainers and see when it all went...
if you think that is coming back in a GE, under this policy, i think you are in for a rude awakening.....
Leave romped that election:
Leave (no deal):
BREX 31.7, UKIP 3.6 Total: 36.3
Leave with a deal:
Labour:14.1 Con 8.7 Total 22.8
Remain: Lib Dems: 18.5, Green:11.1
ChUk:2.9 SNP:3.3
Total: 36.2
Total Leave: 59.1
Total remain: 36.2
you skewing statistics to suit a narrative.... hmmmm....
so lets look at the raw data shall we....
tweets "curtosy" of fasal isalm (him from the parish of sky news now about to become political editor at the bbc)
"BXP results make a new Tory leader backing No Deal by Oct 31st position almost certain...
But...
9.1 million people just voted for parties explicitly against No Deal (LD/G/L/CH/SNP...) ... vs 5.8m explicitly in favour...(BXP+Ukip)
By the way that is the second consecutive national poll after the General Election 2017 where manifestos against No Deal have got a majority of popular votes - and on a lower turnout, that majority against has now increase
.. also the number so far make it far from clear that the entirety of the Conservative vote share loss went to Brexit Party - assuming some Labour to BXP too - then a small but electorally important band of long forgotten Con Remainers went to Libs/CHUK too
Anyway this heads towards a non-elected new PM of a minority Government using Royal Prerogative late on at an EU Summit to go for No Deal on basis of 2016 popular mandate, with No Deal not having received popular vote mandates at subsequent national elections in 2017 & 2019
I'm not sqewing anything.
Those are the votes cast and in each case, that is the party's stance on BREXIT.
I took them directly from the results and added them up.
It is disingenuous to pretend that Labour's commitment to implement Brexit is the same as Frottage's. Labour have been clear that it is leave With a deal, BRX Party want No deal. The two are completely different stances"
That's exactly what I wrote.... |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
We are in this mess because in 2016 a vote to leave was so poorly defined.
It's been left up to Government and Parliament to figure out what that looks like.
It seems entirely reasonable to me for the elected representatives to decide on an exit route, then go back to the people and ask: "We think this exit route is the one that's best for you. Do you agree?"
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"We are in this mess because in 2016 a vote to leave was so poorly defined.
It's been left up to Government and Parliament to figure out what that looks like.
It seems entirely reasonable to me for the elected representatives to decide on an exit route, then go back to the people and ask: "We think this exit route is the one that's best for you. Do you agree?"
"
& when the people say no? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Two paper referendum:
First paper to test the 2016 result remains valid - Leave or Remain
Second paper - Leave with the deal recommended by Parliament, or without one.
Assuming the first question validates the 2016 result, the second question allows everyone to choose their preferred exit route.
It is what Jacob Rees-Mogg used to advocate - a second vote once the terms of exit were known.
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"Is there another way out of this?
I cannot see one.
A new mandate is needed to break the impasse.
That can come only from the people, either in a referendum or a general election.
"
Totally agree, this shambles needs to be ended. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Is there another way out of this?
I cannot see one.
A new mandate is needed to break the impasse.
That can come only from the people, either in a referendum or a general election.
"
The only way for Brexit is to either do it or stop it.
A second referendum would be equally devisive, and a General Election is just as a poor way forward, bearing in mind both the big parties have a Leave manifesto. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
The reality is nothing is going to happen for months now.
We'll be treated to the spectacle of the Conservative Party tearing itself apart in public.
If Government was paralysed before, it'll be utterly dysfunctional in June and July as Ministers abandon the day job to butter up the blue rinses.
it promises nothing more than a continuation of the internecine war that's been raging in the Conservative Party for decades.
Cameron thought the referendum would cure the party's infection. It did the opposite - the virus has spread to the whole country now.
If nothing else, the Conservative Party's self-indulgence will give us some temporary relief from the vortex of despair in Parliament.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Is there another way out of this?
I cannot see one.
A new mandate is needed to break the impasse.
That can come only from the people, either in a referendum or a general election.
The only way for Brexit is to either do it or stop it.
A second referendum would be equally devisive, and a General Election is just as a poor way forward, bearing in mind both the big parties have a Leave manifesto. "
Neither do it (assuming no deal) nor stay has any kind of mandate. In my mind both these options are undemocratic without a second referendum. Only a parliament ratified deal has a mandate.
A new GE allows a manifesto adjustment. I can see a Labour mandate in a new GE having a second vote. |
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Has anyone actually thought through what would be achieved by a 2nd referendum?
Leave win again? Then that will be the end. Or will it?
Remain win by a smaller or similar margin to leave's win last time? What then? a 3rd referendum to settle it?
Or as is more likely, the remainers will shut down any talk of a 3rd go at it because they will shout "the people have spoken" from the rafters. Oh wait a minute.
As we know, this is normal service from the EU. Keep voting until you get the right answer then never vote again.
Just ask the Irish.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Conservative Party: We had a vote in 2016 (for a leader) but we changed our minds and now we are going to have another vote.
Conservative Party: You had a vote in 2016 (on the EU) and that's it, end of, finished, closed.
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By *ostafun OP Man
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Conservative Party: We had a vote in 2016 (for a leader) but we changed our minds and now we are going to have another vote.
Conservative Party: You had a vote in 2016 (on the EU) and that's it, end of, finished, closed.
"
You seem to mix up the way partys choose their leaders and once in a generation referendums its not rocket science. |
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
"Two paper referendum:
First paper to test the 2016 result remains valid - Leave or Remain
Second paper - Leave with the deal recommended by Parliament, or without one.
"
If going back to the people - it needs to be as easy as possible and as clear as possible. The first is not clear in offering a no deal. The second paper cancels out a remain option.
A one paper ballot giving 3 choice of no deal, a parliamentary deal or remain would give understandable options.
It would then be a contest of the extremes between no deal and remain as everyone has seen that parliament cannot agree on deal terms. It would also mean that both major parties could get back to national agendas rather than not knowing if they are going to uphold the referendum, are no dealers or dealers. |
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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
"Conservative Party: We had a vote in 2016 (for a leader) but we changed our minds and now we are going to have another vote.
Conservative Party: You had a vote in 2016 (on the EU) and that's it, end of, finished, closed.
"
. Might also be worth mentioning that in 2018 , the Conservative party had a vote of no confidence in their leader , a vote which their leader won , thereby confirming their 2016 result but they didn't like this result either and in the days before the leader they elected resigned were desperately trying to change their own party rules so they could get the result they wanted |
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"Conservative Party: We had a vote in 2016 (for a leader) but we changed our minds and now we are going to have another vote.
Conservative Party: You had a vote in 2016 (on the EU) and that's it, end of, finished, closed.
. Might also be worth mentioning that in 2018 , the Conservative party had a vote of no confidence in their leader , a vote which their leader won , thereby confirming their 2016 result but they didn't like this result either and in the days before the leader they elected resigned were desperately trying to change their own party rules so they could get the result they wanted"
Apparently that is Conservative Democracy..., the rest of us just get to watch from the sidelines being told it is none of our business. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"Two paper referendum:
First paper to test the 2016 result remains valid - Leave or Remain
Second paper - Leave with the deal recommended by Parliament, or without one.
If going back to the people - it needs to be as easy as possible and as clear as possible. The first is not clear in offering a no deal. The second paper cancels out a remain option.
A one paper ballot giving 3 choice of no deal, a parliamentary deal or remain would give understandable options.
"
No. You need to separate out the questions equitably.
Do you want to Leave or Remain?
Do you want to leave with a deal or without a deal?
The second question comes into play only if the first re-affirms the 2016 vote.
Under your proposal, 48 per cent would vote Remain and 52 per cent would be split across two choices, skewing the result in favour of Remain. That is not equitable. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
You seem to mix up the way partys choose their leaders and once in a generation referendums its not rocket science."
You are interpreting it as "once in a generation". There is nothing in law about that, and nothing whatsoever to stop Parliament saying: "You know what, we're stumped. People, we need your direction on this."
The only place where a generation is defined is in the Belfast Agreement.
In the event of a vote on re-unification, another cannot take place until 7 years have elapsed.
In that context, a generation is defined as 7 years.
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
"Two paper referendum:
First paper to test the 2016 result remains valid - Leave or Remain
Second paper - Leave with the deal recommended by Parliament, or without one.
If going back to the people - it needs to be as easy as possible and as clear as possible. The first is not clear in offering a no deal. The second paper cancels out a remain option.
A one paper ballot giving 3 choice of no deal, a parliamentary deal or remain would give understandable options.
No. You need to separate out the questions equitably.
Do you want to Leave or Remain?
Do you want to leave with a deal or without a deal?
The second question comes into play only if the first re-affirms the 2016 vote.
Under your proposal, 48 per cent would vote Remain and 52 per cent would be split across two choices, skewing the result in favour of Remain. That is not equitable."
If this is a new referendum is should be treated as such, the first referendum result becomes void as it has not been resolved, though if there are clear explained caveats - maybe. It is a little more confusing than necessary though.
The percentage win across one ballot has equal share.
In a two paper ballot, it becomes confused as; if I wanted to Remain I get one tick only in the first paper. The second paper is reserved only for leavers and what type of leave option they want. As I would not want to leave or want a deal - unless people ticked one of these options depending on how they saw parliament perform, thereby skewing results, despite voting for remain.
Leave / remain in the first paper gives only leavers what type of exit deal they want in the second. |
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
"Why can't everyone vote on the type of leave even if they voted to remain in the first question. Seems easiest way to me. "
Because it is a null question. If remain win there is no point asking what kind of deal is wanted. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I've voted in a two-question referendum.
Scotland in 1997.
Part A): Should there be a Scottish Parliament YES/NO
Part B) Should a Scottish Parliament have tax-raising powers YES/NO
The answer to both was a majority YES.
Had the first question produced a NO, the 2nd question becomes redundant.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why can't everyone vote on the type of leave even if they voted to remain in the first question. Seems easiest way to me.
Because it is a null question. If remain win there is no point asking what kind of deal is wanted. "
I'm assuming the two votes happen at the same time. But if course, yes, it becomes a waste of ink if the vite is to remain. |
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
"I've voted in a two-question referendum.
Scotland in 1997.
Part A): Should there be a Scottish Parliament YES/NO
Part B) Should a Scottish Parliament have tax-raising powers YES/NO
The answer to both was a majority YES.
Had the first question produced a NO, the 2nd question becomes redundant.
"
Ahh I see what you're saying - if remain win in the first, the second isn't necessary. If leave win in the first the second paper is then taken into account. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
Ahh I see what you're saying - if remain win in the first, the second isn't necessary. If leave win in the first the second paper is then taken into account. "
It would also be legitimate to have only the 2nd question - leave with or without the deal.
That said, when a country is so finely divided on an issue as the UK has been since the 2016 vote, it is wise to check the original premise.
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Looks like corbyn will have to get off the fence today and pick the splinters out of his arse.What will labour leave supporters do?"
Continue to be as ambiguous as possible even though the party leans very strongly towards remain.
Labor leave supporters already left though. All there is left to do is annoy the remainers further  |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Many senior Labour MP's, such as Emily Thornberry, John McDonnell, Tom Watson and Keir Starmer, are positioning themselves on the wrong side of the argument.
It's really only remainers who want a second referendum. Leavers just want brexit delivered.
As we know, in 2016 the vote was 52% Brexit / 48% Remain
In 2017, 83% of voters voted for a party committed to delivering Brexit.
And as we've seen from these results, the Brexit Party - which didn't even exist some 6 weeks ago, wiped the floor with all the other parties across the country (with the exception of Scotland and London).
In some areas, they got more than double the number of votes of their closest rivals.
The problem with most MP's is they always try and spin poor performance into something positive - and they always say 'we have to listen' and 'we've got to learn from this' - but of course they never, ever do.
A prime example of this was last night, when results were coming in, Suzanne Evans (formerly of UKIP) actually told Emily Thornberry that she (and colleagues) had been out talking to people on the doorstep and voters were telling her why they were changing who they were supporting, and Emily Thornberry completely ignored everything she had just been told about why voters were deserting Labour and tried to read something into the results that were coming in - and THAT's the problem.
They're just not listening"
Total % vote share:
Brexit gain +31.6%
UKIP loss -24.2%
The Brexit Party is not new, it is UKIP repackaged.
That means that the total increase in the hard leave vote was 7.4%
Conservative loss -14.85%
Labour loss -11.3%
That means the majority of combined Conservative and Labour deserters voted for remain parties (LibDem, Green, Change UK, SNP, Plaid Cymru) not leave.
+7.4% Leave
+18.75 Remain
Someone can do some alternative maths if they like
As has been stated already, turnout was only 36.9% despite all of the chaos over the last three years. This implies that most of the country just does not care.
It can be argued that there is now a voice for "no deal" but that is 32% of 37% which is about 12% of those eligible to vote, so not that strong. |
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Apparently there is a new impetus in Parliament to sort the question of Brexit out.
Firstly, it will be set in stone.
Secondly, it will be published on non animal based parchment.
Finally, it will be a tool for cutting through tje bureaucracy of the current impasse.
It will be the Rock, Paper, Scissors solution. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Funnily enough its people like you, Fabio who are directly responsible for the rise of the BREXIT party.
not me.... i am one of those people who bit my tongue and voted for corbyn at the last general election, but have now bolted and don't think i'll be back whilst "this" person leads that labour party...
I'm done....
I live in a place that voted remain, and the funny thing is i apologised to the labour person who was campaigning, i don't believe it is the activists on the ground, i think the higher up wants to talk out of both sides...
if you stand in the middle... prepare to get run over from both ways... last night you got run over by remainers and see when it all went...
if you think that is coming back in a GE, under this policy, i think you are in for a rude awakening.....
Leave romped that election:
Leave (no deal):
BREX 31.7, UKIP 3.6 Total: 36.3
Leave with a deal:
Labour:14.1 Con 8.7 Total 22.8
Remain: Lib Dems: 18.5, Green:11.1
ChUk:2.9 SNP:3.3
Total: 36.2
Total Leave: 59.1
Total remain: 36.2"
Nah.
Total % vote share:
Brexit gain +31.6%
UKIP loss -24.2%
The Brexit Party is not new, it is UKIP repackaged.
That means that the total increase in the hard leave vote was 7.4%
Conservative loss -14.85%
Labour loss -11.3%
That means the majority of combined Conservative and Labour deserters voted for remain parties (LibDem, Green, Change UK, SNP, Plaid Cymru) not leave.
+7.4% Leave
+18.75 Remain
Someone can do some alternative maths if they like
Neither the Conservative or Labour views can be assumed to be for leave. Labour is being as ambiguous as it possibly can be:
"Labour will continue to oppose the Government’s bad deal or a disastrous no deal. And if we can’t get agreement along the lines of our alternative plan, or a general election, Labour backs the option of a public vote.
If the Government is confident that it has negotiated a deal that benefits our economy and our communities then they should not be afraid to put that deal to the public."
As has been stated already, turnout was only 36.9% despite all of the chaos over the last three years. This implies that most of the country just does not care.
It can be argued that there is now a voice for "no deal" but that is 32% of 37% which is about 12% of those eligible to vote, so not that strong. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Labour has lost 2,000,000 leave voters since 2017.
If they decide to position themselves as the party of a liberal bourgeois dictatorship and ignore the result of the referendum, and break their promise to uphold it, they will also lose mine.
classic example of why labour lost in london and will struggle in manchester, liverpool, bristol, sheffield.........
not a single lesson learnt....
70% of Labour constituencies voted leave, and constituencies are what win you seats in a FPTP system.
That, and it's now only extremists who think it's acceptable to ignore democracy, especially after those results for the BREXIT party.
If people want to vote lib Dem and reap another 5 years of austerity, they truly are mugs. At least ChangeUK are now dead."
26% - 34% of Labour voters in 2017 voted to leave.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-48039984
Most Labour voters in leave supporting Labour constituencies voted to leave.
That may not suit your narrative, but it's the best information available  |
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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
No matter what your views on Labour / Corbyn / Brexit , I don't think it can be disputed that the last Labour manifesto was aimed at helping people who need it most , it would therefore be strange to find that they lose the next General Election because the people they were trying to help voted against them simply for brexit therefore leading to further cuts and austerity , at the very time help may have been on the horizon |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Labour has lost 2,000,000 leave voters since 2017.
If they decide to position themselves as the party of a liberal bourgeois dictatorship and ignore the result of the referendum, and break their promise to uphold it, they will also lose mine.
classic example of why labour lost in london and will struggle in manchester, liverpool, bristol, sheffield.........
not a single lesson learnt....
70% of Labour constituencies voted leave, and constituencies are what win you seats in a FPTP system.
That, and it's now only extremists who think it's acceptable to ignore democracy, especially after those results for the BREXIT party.
If people want to vote lib Dem and reap another 5 years of austerity, they truly are mugs. At least ChangeUK are now dead.
26% - 34% of Labour voters in 2017 voted to leave.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-48039984
Most Labour voters in leave supporting Labour constituencies voted to leave.
That may not suit your narrative, but it's the best information available "
Duh! Most Labour voters in leave supporting Labour constituencies voted to remain* |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
The tension over which coalition the party wants to build, underlies the debate in Labour today about whether to embrace a second referendum. Is Labour now fundamentally a progressive party, which means leaving behind workers in some of the most deprived parts of Britain to chase the votes of ‘progressive’ Tories and Liberal Democrats in Remain-voting areas? Or is it a socialist party, which means trying to unite workers across the culture war divide on the basis that a Labour government would improve their lives? |
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"The tension over which coalition the party wants to build, underlies the debate in Labour today about whether to embrace a second referendum. Is Labour now fundamentally a progressive party, which means leaving behind workers in some of the most deprived parts of Britain to chase the votes of ‘progressive’ Tories and Liberal Democrats in Remain-voting areas? Or is it a socialist party, which means trying to unite workers across the culture war divide on the basis that a Labour government would improve their lives?"
Or is it so tied up in it's own conflict of belief that it cannot decide?
JC is fundamentally against the idea of the EU as a political and trading bloc as it is generally a capitalist centre right body.
However, he refuses to stand up and be counted using the usual tactic of failing to state a firm point of view at the cost of credibility and votes. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The tension over which coalition the party wants to build, underlies the debate in Labour today about whether to embrace a second referendum. Is Labour now fundamentally a progressive party, which means leaving behind workers in some of the most deprived parts of Britain to chase the votes of ‘progressive’ Tories and Liberal Democrats in Remain-voting areas? Or is it a socialist party, which means trying to unite workers across the culture war divide on the basis that a Labour government would improve their lives?"
My money would be on a progressive direction because the centre is ready for the taking.Capitalism that's socially responsible will improve everyone's lives.Now the conservatives are plastic kippers the middle ground is free to be taken.  |
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"The tension over which coalition the party wants to build, underlies the debate in Labour today about whether to embrace a second referendum. Is Labour now fundamentally a progressive party, which means leaving behind workers in some of the most deprived parts of Britain to chase the votes of ‘progressive’ Tories and Liberal Democrats in Remain-voting areas? Or is it a socialist party, which means trying to unite workers across the culture war divide on the basis that a Labour government would improve their lives?
My money would be on a progressive direction because the centre is ready for the taking.Capitalism that's socially responsible will improve everyone's lives.Now the conservatives are plastic kippers the middle ground is free to be taken. "
Ethical capitalism is something I would get behind.
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"The tension over which coalition the party wants to build, underlies the debate in Labour today about whether to embrace a second referendum. Is Labour now fundamentally a progressive party, which means leaving behind workers in some of the most deprived parts of Britain to chase the votes of ‘progressive’ Tories and Liberal Democrats in Remain-voting areas? Or is it a socialist party, which means trying to unite workers across the culture war divide on the basis that a Labour government would improve their lives?
My money would be on a progressive direction because the centre is ready for the taking.Capitalism that's socially responsible will improve everyone's lives.Now the conservatives are plastic kippers the middle ground is free to be taken. "
Centrism is utterly dead, Bob.
I do seem to repeat this ad infinitum on these boards.
Every European "Labour" party who stuck to "third way" politics has been anhiliated.
People have had enough of austerity lite under New Labour.
When people have nothing, they vote for change, and at the moment, the only people who seem to understand that are the far right who are burgeoning all over Europe.
The British Labour party managed to avoid being wiped out by moving (slightly) to the left.
They continue to lead the Westminster polling.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The tension over which coalition the party wants to build, underlies the debate in Labour today about whether to embrace a second referendum. Is Labour now fundamentally a progressive party, which means leaving behind workers in some of the most deprived parts of Britain to chase the votes of ‘progressive’ Tories and Liberal Democrats in Remain-voting areas? Or is it a socialist party, which means trying to unite workers across the culture war divide on the basis that a Labour government would improve their lives?
My money would be on a progressive direction because the centre is ready for the taking.Capitalism that's socially responsible will improve everyone's lives.Now the conservatives are plastic kippers the middle ground is free to be taken.
Centrism is utterly dead, Bob.
I do seem to repeat this ad infinitum on these boards.
Every European "Labour" party who stuck to "third way" politics has been anhiliated.
People have had enough of austerity lite under New Labour.
When people have nothing, they vote for change, and at the moment, the only people who seem to understand that are the far right who are burgeoning all over Europe.
The British Labour party managed to avoid being wiped out by moving (slightly) to the left.
They continue to lead the Westminster polling.
"
Yes the far right have made some ground but not that much and "Traditional" parties have suffered .The gains aren't just from far right the greens had a huge surge in the EU and are now polling second in Germany behind the CDU bettering the AFD(Alt right) and the traditional social democrats,SDU .The greens I predict will steal the centre eventually .Greens also surged into second place in Finland ahead of the social democrats,
They came from nowhere to third place in France and all across the EU a green wave has occurred.In the 18-24 bracket the greens top the polls .
The future is green . |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
is labour a "remain" party now..... not in the slightest...
I think there are elements within the labour party that very much have a remain slant to them....
the fudge wont change because of the northern mps who prize their seats.... when means they will once again face the remainer backlash....
but let see what happens at their conference, because I don't think their NEC will pass anything that makes it outright clear because corbyn wont allow that thru... |
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"The tension over which coalition the party wants to build, underlies the debate in Labour today about whether to embrace a second referendum. Is Labour now fundamentally a progressive party, which means leaving behind workers in some of the most deprived parts of Britain to chase the votes of ‘progressive’ Tories and Liberal Democrats in Remain-voting areas? Or is it a socialist party, which means trying to unite workers across the culture war divide on the basis that a Labour government would improve their lives?
My money would be on a progressive direction because the centre is ready for the taking.Capitalism that's socially responsible will improve everyone's lives.Now the conservatives are plastic kippers the middle ground is free to be taken.
Centrism is utterly dead, Bob.
I do seem to repeat this ad infinitum on these boards.
Every European "Labour" party who stuck to "third way" politics has been anhiliated.
People have had enough of austerity lite under New Labour.
When people have nothing, they vote for change, and at the moment, the only people who seem to understand that are the far right who are burgeoning all over Europe.
The British Labour party managed to avoid being wiped out by moving (slightly) to the left.
They continue to lead the Westminster polling.
Yes the far right have made some ground but not that much and "Traditional" parties have suffered .The gains aren't just from far right the greens had a huge surge in the EU and are now polling second in Germany behind the CDU bettering the AFD(Alt right) and the traditional social democrats,SDU .The greens I predict will steal the centre eventually .Greens also surged into second place in Finland ahead of the social democrats,
They came from nowhere to third place in France and all across the EU a green wave has occurred.In the 18-24 bracket the greens top the polls .
The future is green . "
"18-24 bracket" always the same until they start work and pay a mortgage. Then people tend to vote for stability. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"
Centrism is utterly dead, Bob.
I do seem to repeat this ad infinitum on these boards.
Every European "Labour" party who stuck to "third way" politics has been anhiliated.
People have had enough of austerity lite under New Labour.
When people have nothing, they vote for change, and at the moment, the only people who seem to understand that are the far right who are burgeoning all over Europe.
The British Labour party managed to avoid being wiped out by moving (slightly) to the left.
They continue to lead the Westminster polling.
"
Interesting observation - but surely the question is why?
Overwhelmingly people in first world countries are centrist by nature and if as you assert, they have moved away from their natural centrist ground to either become a more aggressive nationalist on one side or an extreme socialist agitator on the other - why would that be?
Speaking personally - I have drifted between left and right of centre all my life. Mainly voting Conservative, but also voting in Tony Blairs regime (twice). I feel that the centre ground is lost quite simply because there is no-one there to take advantage of it.
I don't want a future full of angry, sweary and shouty politics from the right and I don't want a future defined by a pursuit of an extreme socialist agenda from the left.
Surely, there are centre-ground politicians who accept that capitalism must work, but not at the expense of the many in order to just benefit a few. A fair society that provides opportunity and cares for all its citizens is the ultimate centre ground. It is those politics that have disappeared, not the people who would vote for such policies. |
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"It appears to be a criticism of Labour that they have sat on the fence ,,, however , they are probably tho only party realising that the referendum was 52/48 ( and if held today would probably be 46/54 ) , every other party seem to be treating the results as 100/0 or 0/100"
The real problem is not looking for a compromise, the problem is finding a compromise that's better than we have now, and so far all the compromises end up with us being worse of politically (never mind economically) than we are now. The main BREXIT slogan was "Take back control" but every form of deal, whether May's, Norway+, Canada+++ or whatever actually means us having to accept pretty much the same rules as now but with no control over the making of those rules. In effect the complete opposite of "Take back control" and so doesn't meet BREXITERS expectations.
In the end I don't believe there can be a compromise. We're either in or out, and I chose in.
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
corbyn's been telling crowds and audiences in dublin today that he would renegotiate a better brexit deal with the new incoming european commission if he were to become PM....
that doesn't sound like a change in policy at all................ |
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By *ostafun OP Man
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"corbyn's been telling crowds and audiences in dublin today that he would renegotiate a better brexit deal with the new incoming european commission if he were to become PM....
that doesn't sound like a change in policy at all................ "
The eu has stated that withdrawal agreement is non negotiable so christ knows how any of them are going to do that. |
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"corbyn's been telling crowds and audiences in dublin today that he would renegotiate a better brexit deal with the new incoming european commission if he were to become PM....
that doesn't sound like a change in policy at all................ The eu has stated that withdrawal agreement is non negotiable so christ knows how any of them are going to do that. "
By rubbing out the red lines that May used to box herself in with would be my guess. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"The eu has stated that withdrawal agreement is non negotiable so christ knows how any of them are going to do that. "
I don't think Labour has any real issue with the Withdrawal Agreement.
It's the political declaration that makes this a blind Brexit.
Some meaningless rhetoric about something deep and special.
We step out the EU into . . . um, no-one knows.
This is the fundamental problem.
How can we work out how to leave when we have not decided where we want to go?
Gordon Brown made this point yesterday.
That Britain needs to create a vision of the society it wants to become.
But then Brexit was never about a vision, only about fear.
Fear of migrants, fear of foreigners making rules, fear of an EU Army, fear of Turkey joining, fear of this, fear of that
Policy based on fear is a disaster.
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"The eu has stated that withdrawal agreement is non negotiable so christ knows how any of them are going to do that.
I don't think Labour has any real issue with the Withdrawal Agreement.
It's the political declaration that makes this a blind Brexit.
Some meaningless rhetoric about something deep and special.
We step out the EU into . . . um, no-one knows.
This is the fundamental problem.
How can we work out how to leave when we have not decided where we want to go?
Gordon Brown made this point yesterday.
That Britain needs to create a vision of the society it wants to become.
But then Brexit was never about a vision, only about fear.
Fear of migrants, fear of foreigners making rules, fear of an EU Army, fear of Turkey joining, fear of this, fear of that
Policy based on fear is a disaster.
"
Put, even if the Red Lines are gone, we still have a really big problem with any deal; namely that any deal that leaves us in the customs union and/or single market is going to require that we follow rules that we'll have less say over than we have now so doesn't meet the "Take back Control" pledge. But any plan that doesn't leave us in both will still require an Irish backstop, which still leaves having to follow rules that we'll have less say other than we have now.
It's really simple. There is no deal, including 'no deal' that can actually deliver.
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Is Labour a Remain Party?
Not according to this:
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/labour-could-back-brexit-in-a-people-s-vote-frontbencher-claims-1-6079507
They can't be counted as a Remain party even if they back a People's Vote if they're going to back the Leave side.
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"
Centrism is utterly dead, Bob.
I do seem to repeat this ad infinitum on these boards.
Every European "Labour" party who stuck to "third way" politics has been anhiliated.
People have had enough of austerity lite under New Labour.
When people have nothing, they vote for change, and at the moment, the only people who seem to understand that are the far right who are burgeoning all over Europe.
The British Labour party managed to avoid being wiped out by moving (slightly) to the left.
They continue to lead the Westminster polling.
Interesting observation - but surely the question is why?
Overwhelmingly people in first world countries are centrist by nature and if as you assert, they have moved away from their natural centrist ground to either become a more aggressive nationalist on one side or an extreme socialist agitator on the other - why would that be?
Speaking personally - I have drifted between left and right of centre all my life. Mainly voting Conservative, but also voting in Tony Blairs regime (twice). I feel that the centre ground is lost quite simply because there is no-one there to take advantage of it.
I don't want a future full of angry, sweary and shouty politics from the right and I don't want a future defined by a pursuit of an extreme socialist agenda from the left.
Surely, there are centre-ground politicians who accept that capitalism must work, but not at the expense of the many in order to just benefit a few. A fair society that provides opportunity and cares for all its citizens is the ultimate centre ground. It is those politics that have disappeared, not the people who would vote for such policies."
Its possibly because of the level of poverty in this country, its possibly because politics has moved so far to the right since Thatcher, the centre ground, mixed economy stuff is to the left of the current labour manifesto. |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
For example: I've heard reports from teachers in the education press recently about children following others around so that they can eat their apple core when they have finished.
This next generation has more in common with my grandfathers than my fathers.
That generation precipitated the only socialist government that this country has ever had, in my opinion, that of Attlee.
A government which won things for the population which the last 40 years have all but destroyed. The NHS will be privatised and the welfare state will go, and in it's place we'll have American style mass incarceration.
The roll-back will then be complete.
Modern "centrism" (which is actually liberal right wing philosophy) offers no answers to this. |
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