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WTO terms of trade
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"I’d put it into simple terms, Why would you want to leave a club where you get the best discounts on everything negotiated with other sellers and buyers? To move to a system where you don’t. It’s true the old imperial mentality resounds highly in many hardened brexiteers. Just compromise and be over and done with it. " Why? For blue passports, for sovereignty,for take back control , for £350 million a week found NHS and a lot more lies and fantasies  | |||
So why would the UK want to give up these markets ?
Do people really think the EU need to UK more than we do them ?
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"What does the UK produce that the EU could not source from within its own countries? I suspect not a lot as it’s a big assed world out there and I doubt they would have to look very far!
So why would the UK want to give up these markets ?
Do people really think the EU need to UK more than we do them ?
"They think that the EU need us more than we need them because they've been reading the daily mail (or similar) for so long that they've lost all grip on reality. | |||
"What does the UK produce that the EU could not source from within its own countries? I suspect not a lot as it’s a big assed world out there and I doubt they would have to look very far!
So why would the UK want to give up these markets ?
Do people really think the EU need to UK more than we do them ?
"Let's take cars as an example: The UK is the 2nd largest market for German cars - €26bn - its true because Nigel Farage said so. Now look at the top 15 largest who buy German cars- 6 are in the EU (excluding Germany of course) The 6 buy €70bn so that is €44bn more than the UK. Switzerland who have a FTA buys another €4bn! If we say that the other 21 countries buy €1bn that could be another €25bn so the single market is worth €69bn more than the UK - almost 3 times more! Rest my case! | |||
"What “trading on WTO terms” really means...' As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens’ rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. On Brexit Day, when ever that may be, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. Those treaties are gone in a flash, as if we’d fed them into a shredder. (That’s not the EU being vindictive, it’s just how the Article 50 process works.) Even IF we have a transition period, the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kick-around in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then turn around and pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs. WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero if we want to. But that's when the WTO most favoured nation rule kicks in. "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever invented, because what it really means is that we are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages. But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet. That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. But that’s only half the picture. We have no control over other countries’ import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we’re trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost? Short answer: they won't. But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs. However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. The mere notion is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK. It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse. And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs. If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements. We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either: A) Don't understand what that means or B) They are lying to you. For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit. In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be. Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash. But unlike the crash, we'd be deliberately, willingly inflicting the pain on ourselves. Incredible, but true. And the result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. And Just because some may not understand all of this doesn’t mean that it isn’t true: WTO: just say no " Brilliant! | |||
"What “trading on WTO terms” really means...' As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens’ rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. On Brexit Day, when ever that may be, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. Those treaties are gone in a flash, as if we’d fed them into a shredder. (That’s not the EU being vindictive, it’s just how the Article 50 process works.) Even IF we have a transition period, the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kick-around in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then turn around and pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs. WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero if we want to. But that's when the WTO most favoured nation rule kicks in. "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever invented, because what it really means is that we are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages. But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet. That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. But that’s only half the picture. We have no control over other countries’ import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we’re trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost? Short answer: they won't. But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs. However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. The mere notion is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK. It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse. And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs. If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements. We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either: A) Don't understand what that means or B) They are lying to you. For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit. In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be. Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash. But unlike the crash, we'd be deliberately, willingly inflicting the pain on ourselves. Incredible, but true. And the result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. And Just because some may not understand all of this doesn’t mean that it isn’t true: WTO: just say no! " Yes, but, it's the evil Empire innit? | |||
"What “trading on WTO terms” really means...' As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens’ rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. On Brexit Day, when ever that may be, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. Those treaties are gone in a flash, as if we’d fed them into a shredder. (That’s not the EU being vindictive, it’s just how the Article 50 process works.) Even IF we have a transition period, the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kick-around in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then turn around and pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs. WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero if we want to. But that's when the WTO most favoured nation rule kicks in. "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever invented, because what it really means is that we are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages. But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet. That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. But that’s only half the picture. We have no control over other countries’ import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we’re trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost? Short answer: they won't. But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs. However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. The mere notion is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK. It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse. And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs. If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements. We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either: A) Don't understand what that means or B) They are lying to you. For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit. In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be. Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash. But unlike the crash, we'd be deliberately, willingly inflicting the pain on ourselves. Incredible, but true. And the result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. And Just because some may not understand all of this doesn’t mean that it isn’t true: WTO: just say no! " This is one side of the story . However to many others wto terms will mean cheaper food and clothes . A few tweaks to duties are hardly going to destroy us. With reference to you points a and b. In order to form an opinion it is not necessary to understand the logic of reason in full . You can simply listen to the opinions of various organisations and form you r own opinion based on their creditability. When I fly I do not need to know how the plane works, I just need to know that it was built by a reliable manufacturer and the pilots are correctly trained.. Why would anyone lie over wto terms? We are talking about a future event with many unknown factors. When it comes to predicting the future there are two types of people. 1. Those who do not know. 2. Those who do not know that they do not know. If we can leave the EU without a deal , offers of a deal will flow in very quickly afterwards. We have nothing to lose.. | |||
"What “trading on WTO terms” really means...' As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens’ rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. On Brexit Day, when ever that may be, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. Those treaties are gone in a flash, as if we’d fed them into a shredder. (That’s not the EU being vindictive, it’s just how the Article 50 process works.) Even IF we have a transition period, the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kick-around in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then turn around and pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs. WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero if we want to. But that's when the WTO most favoured nation rule kicks in. "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever invented, because what it really means is that we are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages. But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet. That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. But that’s only half the picture. We have no control over other countries’ import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we’re trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost? Short answer: they won't. But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs. However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. The mere notion is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK. It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse. And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs. If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements. We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either: A) Don't understand what that means or B) They are lying to you. For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit. In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be. Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash. But unlike the crash, we'd be deliberately, willingly inflicting the pain on ourselves. Incredible, but true. And the result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. And Just because some may not understand all of this doesn’t mean that it isn’t true: WTO: just say no! This is one side of the story . However to many others wto terms will mean cheaper food and clothes . A few tweaks to duties are hardly going to destroy us. With reference to you points a and b. In order to form an opinion it is not necessary to understand the logic of reason in full . You can simply listen to the opinions of various organisations and form you r own opinion based on their creditability. When I fly I do not need to know how the plane works, I just need to know that it was built by a reliable manufacturer and the pilots are correctly trained.. Why would anyone lie over wto terms? We are talking about a future event with many unknown factors. When it comes to predicting the future there are two types of people. 1. Those who do not know. 2. Those who do not know that they do not know. If we can leave the EU without a deal , offers of a deal will flow in very quickly afterwards. We have nothing to lose.." And after Brexit butterflies will deliver cans of cider to every worker at the end of their shift. The A team will be brought to life to continue to be on the run after escaping from a maximum security prison, for a crime they didn't commit. | |||
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"In the delusional fantasy that is la la land the ideology of the Brexiteer zealots is frightening.. " You’re just being negative. With a bit of positivity we will all get free mars bars and even gooseberries will drop in price. Farage said so. | |||
"In the delusional fantasy that is la la land the ideology of the Brexiteer zealots is frightening.. You’re just being negative. With a bit of positivity we will all get free mars bars and even gooseberries will drop in price. Farage said so." Well if Boris can trump him by offering gooseberry flavoured Mars bars then fuck it I'm in.. Where do i sign up? | |||
" This is one side of the story . However to many others wto terms will mean cheaper food and clothes . A few tweaks to duties are hardly going to destroy us. With reference to you points a and b. In order to form an opinion it is not necessary to understand the logic of reason in full . You can simply listen to the opinions of various organisations and form you r own opinion based on their creditability. When I fly I do not need to know how the plane works, I just need to know that it was built by a reliable manufacturer and the pilots are correctly trained.. Why would anyone lie over wto terms? We are talking about a future event with many unknown factors. When it comes to predicting the future there are two types of people. 1. Those who do not know. 2. Those who do not know that they do not know. If we can leave the EU without a deal , offers of a deal will flow in very quickly afterwards. We have nothing to lose.." We will not get as good a deal from the EU as we have now. That is a fact. None of the countries with which we have deals already via the EU will be able or willing to offer us a deal as good as those already in place (not least because countries like Japan have already agreed to that in their deals with the EU). Youre peddling a dangerous, ill informed and nonsensical myth. There's a reason that only a small number of MPs want a WTO Brexit, that's because everyone knows that the economic impact will be devastating but the few dont actually give a shit about it because their brextremism is more important to them than the impact on their constituents. | |||
"When it comes to predicting the future there are two types of people. 1. Those who do not know. 2. Those who do not know that they do not know. If we can leave the EU without a deal , offers of a deal will flow in very quickly afterwards. We have nothing to lose.." So you fall into Type 1? The fact is within the EU we know what it looks like, warts and all. Leaving in some spurious hope of what might happen is like leaping out of an aeroplane which is flying on one engine after being encouraged to do so by a fellow passenger who's telling you you'll find a soft landing between the legs of a nubile virgin. The gullible potentially have very much to lose. | |||
"What “trading on WTO terms” really means...' As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens’ rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. On Brexit Day, when ever that may be, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. Those treaties are gone in a flash, as if we’d fed them into a shredder. (That’s not the EU being vindictive, it’s just how the Article 50 process works.) Even IF we have a transition period, the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kick-around in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then turn around and pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs. WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero if we want to. But that's when the WTO most favoured nation rule kicks in. "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever invented, because what it really means is that we are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages. But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet. That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. But that’s only half the picture. We have no control over other countries’ import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we’re trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost? Short answer: they won't. But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs. However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. The mere notion is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK. It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse. And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs. If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements. We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either: A) Don't understand what that means or B) They are lying to you. For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit. In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be. Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash. But unlike the crash, we'd be deliberately, willingly inflicting the pain on ourselves. Incredible, but true. And the result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. And Just because some may not understand all of this doesn’t mean that it isn’t true: WTO: just say no! This is one side of the story . However to many others wto terms will mean cheaper food and clothes . A few tweaks to duties are hardly going to destroy us. With reference to you points a and b. In order to form an opinion it is not necessary to understand the logic of reason in full . You can simply listen to the opinions of various organisations and form you r own opinion based on their creditability. When I fly I do not need to know how the plane works, I just need to know that it was built by a reliable manufacturer and the pilots are correctly trained.. Why would anyone lie over wto terms? We are talking about a future event with many unknown factors. When it comes to predicting the future there are two types of people. 1. Those who do not know. 2. Those who do not know that they do not know. If we can leave the EU without a deal , offers of a deal will flow in very quickly afterwards. We have nothing to lose.." I don't know why people would lie about WTO. Maybe, like you, they're not B) lying but are all A) Don't know. However you're right, when you fly you don't need to know how the plane works, you just need to know that it was built by a reliable manufacturer and the pilots are correctly trained. But if the experts then tell you that the plane is not actually reliably built and the pilots have not been trained how to fly it properly in all conditions (as is currently the situation with Boeing's 737 max) you'd be a fool to want to fly in it even if there was no other choice. | |||
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" Why would anyone lie over wto terms? We are talking about a future event with many unknown factors. When it comes to predicting the future there are two types of people However you're right, when you fly you don't need to know how the plane works, you just need to know that it was built by a reliable manufacturer and the pilots are correctly trained. But if the experts then tell you that the plane is not actually reliably built and the pilots have not been trained how to fly it properly in all conditions (as is currently the situation with Boeing's 737 max) you'd be a fool to want to fly in it even if there was no other choice. " Ah but the pilots were trained properly and performed 100% to the book but if it had not been for the numpties taking yet more control away from the trained pilots the plane would never have crashed 
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"What “trading on WTO terms” really means...' As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens’ rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. On Brexit Day, when ever that may be, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. Those treaties are gone in a flash, as if we’d fed them into a shredder. (That’s not the EU being vindictive, it’s just how the Article 50 process works.) Even IF we have a transition period, the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kick-around in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then turn around and pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs. WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero if we want to. But that's when the WTO most favoured nation rule kicks in. "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever invented, because what it really means is that we are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages. But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet. That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. But that’s only half the picture. We have no control over other countries’ import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we’re trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost? Short answer: they won't. But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs. However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. The mere notion is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK. It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse. And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs. If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements. We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either: A) Don't understand what that means or B) They are lying to you. For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit. In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be. Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash. But unlike the crash, we'd be deliberately, willingly inflicting the pain on ourselves. Incredible, but true. And the result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. And Just because some may not understand all of this doesn’t mean that it isn’t true: WTO: just say no! " Brilliant.  | |||
"What “trading on WTO terms” really means...' As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens’ rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. On Brexit Day, when ever that may be, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. Those treaties are gone in a flash, as if we’d fed them into a shredder. (That’s not the EU being vindictive, it’s just how the Article 50 process works.) Even IF we have a transition period, the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kick-around in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then turn around and pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs. WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero if we want to. But that's when the WTO most favoured nation rule kicks in. "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever invented, because what it really means is that we are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages. But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet. That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. But that’s only half the picture. We have no control over other countries’ import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we’re trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost? Short answer: they won't. But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs. However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. The mere notion is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK. It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse. And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs. If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements. We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either: A) Don't understand what that means or B) They are lying to you. For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit. In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be. Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash. But unlike the crash, we'd be deliberately, willingly inflicting the pain on ourselves. Incredible, but true. And the result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. And Just because some may not understand all of this doesn’t mean that it isn’t true: WTO: just say no! " Clear, concise, honest and true. An admirable post....well done you! | |||
"What “trading on WTO terms” really means...' As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens’ rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. On Brexit Day, when ever that may be, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. Those treaties are gone in a flash, as if we’d fed them into a shredder. (That’s not the EU being vindictive, it’s just how the Article 50 process works.) Even IF we have a transition period, the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kick-around in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then turn around and pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs. WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero if we want to. But that's when the WTO most favoured nation rule kicks in. "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever invented, because what it really means is that we are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages. But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet. That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. But that’s only half the picture. We have no control over other countries’ import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we’re trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost? Short answer: they won't. But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs. However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. The mere notion is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK. It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse. And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs. If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements. We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either: A) Don't understand what that means or B) They are lying to you. For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit. In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be. Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash. But unlike the crash, we'd be deliberately, willingly inflicting the pain on ourselves. Incredible, but true. And the result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. And Just because some may not understand all of this doesn’t mean that it isn’t true: WTO: just say no! This is one side of the story . However to many others wto terms will mean cheaper food and clothes . A few tweaks to duties are hardly going to destroy us. With reference to you points a and b. In order to form an opinion it is not necessary to understand the logic of reason in full . You can simply listen to the opinions of various organisations and form you r own opinion based on their creditability. When I fly I do not need to know how the plane works, I just need to know that it was built by a reliable manufacturer and the pilots are correctly trained.. Why would anyone lie over wto terms? We are talking about a future event with many unknown factors. When it comes to predicting the future there are two types of people. 1. Those who do not know. 2. Those who do not know that they do not know. If we can leave the EU without a deal , offers of a deal will flow in very quickly afterwards. We have nothing to lose.." Nothing to lose? God give me strength! Perhaps you should brush off your dunces cap as it seems self evident that you are already backed into a corner with your fingers in your ears! I cannot decide whether you are just malevolently trolling or a genuine idiot but I do feel that there is a consensus building about you and your asinine posts ( well over 52 percent of respondents seem to agree on that! ) | |||
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"What “trading on WTO terms” really means...' As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens’ rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. On Brexit Day, when ever that may be, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. Those treaties are gone in a flash, as if we’d fed them into a shredder. (That’s not the EU being vindictive, it’s just how the Article 50 process works.) Even IF we have a transition period, the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kick-around in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then turn around and pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs. WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero if we want to. But that's when the WTO most favoured nation rule kicks in. "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever invented, because what it really means is that we are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages. But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet. That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. But that’s only half the picture. We have no control over other countries’ import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we’re trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost? Short answer: they won't. But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs. However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. The mere notion is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK. It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse. And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs. If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements. We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either: A) Don't understand what that means or B) They are lying to you. For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit. In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be. Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash. But unlike the crash, we'd be deliberately, willingly inflicting the pain on ourselves. Incredible, but true. And the result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. And Just because some may not understand all of this doesn’t mean that it isn’t true: WTO: just say no! This is one side of the story . However to many others wto terms will mean cheaper food and clothes . A few tweaks to duties are hardly going to destroy us. With reference to you points a and b. In order to form an opinion it is not necessary to understand the logic of reason in full . You can simply listen to the opinions of various organisations and form you r own opinion based on their creditability. When I fly I do not need to know how the plane works, I just need to know that it was built by a reliable manufacturer and the pilots are correctly trained.. Why would anyone lie over wto terms? We are talking about a future event with many unknown factors. When it comes to predicting the future there are two types of people. 1. Those who do not know. 2. Those who do not know that they do not know. If we can leave the EU without a deal , offers of a deal will flow in very quickly afterwards. We have nothing to lose.. Nothing to lose? God give me strength! Perhaps you should brush off your dunces cap as it seems self evident that you are already backed into a corner with your fingers in your ears! I cannot decide whether you are just malevolently trolling or a genuine idiot but I do feel that there is a consensus building about you and your asinine posts ( well over 52 percent of respondents seem to agree on that! ) "Hi. Thanks for the reply. It is much appreciated. Maybe read some articles on the benefits of leaving without a deal and you might not see the necessity to make comments which I assume are meant to be sarcastic. For now I will be holding the view that it is best to leave without a deal. For the avoidance of doubt I repeat that we purchase more from the EU than we do from them . In these circumstances we hold the winning cards. You appear to want to surrender before the battle has begun. A significant number of people now are happy to leave on wto terms . Once we do this offers of deals will flow in thick and fast. | |||
"What “trading on WTO terms” really means...' As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens’ rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. On Brexit Day, when ever that may be, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. Those treaties are gone in a flash, as if we’d fed them into a shredder. (That’s not the EU being vindictive, it’s just how the Article 50 process works.) Even IF we have a transition period, the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kick-around in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then turn around and pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs. WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero if we want to. But that's when the WTO most favoured nation rule kicks in. "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever invented, because what it really means is that we are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages. But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet. That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. But that’s only half the picture. We have no control over other countries’ import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we’re trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost? Short answer: they won't. But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs. However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. The mere notion is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK. It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse. And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs. If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements. We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either: A) Don't understand what that means or B) They are lying to you. For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit. In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be. Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash. But unlike the crash, we'd be deliberately, willingly inflicting the pain on ourselves. Incredible, but true. And the result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. And Just because some may not understand all of this doesn’t mean that it isn’t true: WTO: just say no! This is one side of the story . However to many others wto terms will mean cheaper food and clothes . A few tweaks to duties are hardly going to destroy us. With reference to you points a and b. In order to form an opinion it is not necessary to understand the logic of reason in full . You can simply listen to the opinions of various organisations and form you r own opinion based on their creditability. When I fly I do not need to know how the plane works, I just need to know that it was built by a reliable manufacturer and the pilots are correctly trained.. Why would anyone lie over wto terms? We are talking about a future event with many unknown factors. When it comes to predicting the future there are two types of people. 1. Those who do not know. 2. Those who do not know that they do not know. If we can leave the EU without a deal , offers of a deal will flow in very quickly afterwards. We have nothing to lose.. Nothing to lose? God give me strength! Perhaps you should brush off your dunces cap as it seems self evident that you are already backed into a corner with your fingers in your ears! I cannot decide whether you are just malevolently trolling or a genuine idiot but I do feel that there is a consensus building about you and your asinine posts ( well over 52 percent of respondents seem to agree on that! ) Hi. Thanks for the reply. It is much appreciated. Maybe read some articles on the benefits of leaving without a deal and you might not see the necessity to make comments which I assume are meant to be sarcastic.
For now I will be holding the view that it is best to leave without a deal.
For the avoidance of doubt I repeat that we purchase more from the EU than we do from them .
In these circumstances we hold the winning cards.
You appear to want to surrender before the battle has begun.
A significant number of people now are happy to leave on wto terms .
Once we do this offers of deals will flow in thick and fast. "Where may one ask is the evidence for your claims of significant numbers happy to leave on Wto terms..? | |||
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" For the avoidance of doubt I repeat that we purchase more from the EU than we do from them. " WTF? There are so many things wrong in your post, brilliant! But there’s not time to correct or make fun of all of them. So I’ll just pick these two. " A significant number of people now are happy to leave on wto terms . " Yes a significant number of people have zero understanding of the impact of being reduced to leave on WTO terms. | |||
" For the avoidance of doubt I repeat that we purchase more from the EU than we do from them . " ..and nearly half of OUR goods/services are exported to the EU, so we have plenty to lose from this debacle | |||
"What “trading on WTO terms” really means...' As EU members, we participate in over 750 international treaties. Many relate to trade, enabling us to trade freely with the EU, the EEA, and 40+ other countries. Other treaties cover non-trade issues, from air worthiness certificates to drivers licenses, UK and EU citizens’ rights, food safety, environmental protections, workers rights, etc. On Brexit Day, when ever that may be, we leave the EU. That means we lose all the benefits of its treaties. Those treaties are gone in a flash, as if we’d fed them into a shredder. (That’s not the EU being vindictive, it’s just how the Article 50 process works.) Even IF we have a transition period, the treaties will already be gone, but we will be shielded from the immediate shock by the transition arrangement. Right now, we share in trade deals with 78 countries (22 more pending). These deals cover 60.7% of all our goods imports, and 66.9% of our exports. Overnight, we will lose them all, wave goodbye to the painstaking gains of over forty years of trade negotiations. In the absence of trade deals, we will be reduced to trading on WTO terms. WTO is a complicated system of tariffs and quotas, plus a baseline set of rules designed to make trade a little less painful and a little smoother than it otherwise would be. WTO provides a baseline for trade, but it is the absolute minimum that all rational countries seek to improve on. That's why everyone's trying to sign trade deals all the time. The whole point of trade deals is to improve on the basic terms offered by WTO. In trade terms, WTO can be likened to fourth division football: it's definitely a step up from a kick-around in the park using jerseys as goalposts, but it's by no means a high standard. Let's talk about tariffs. WTO has an immensely complex schedule of tariffs, running into thousands of categories. Different products attract different tariffs. For example, under WTO, cars are subject to tariffs of 10%. Tariffs are paid by importers, but of course they then turn around and pass those extra costs onto the consumer. Right now, UK manufacturers can sell cars to the EU tariff free. But under WTO, those cars will be subject to 10% tariffs, effectively making UK-made cars 10% more expensive for EU consumers. But all the major car manufacturers have manufacturing facilities elsewhere, including other EU countries. So if we're reduced to trading on WTO terms, they'll just shift production to the EU and avoid the 10% tariffs. WTO gives us the right to control the tariffs on our imports, even reduce them to zero if we want to. But that's when the WTO most favoured nation rule kicks in. "Most favoured nation" is possibly the most misleading expression ever invented, because what it really means is that we are not allowed to favour one nation over another in our WTO dealings. So if for example if we are desperate for cabbages, we can set a tariff of 0% on them. That makes them cheaper, which stimulates demand and encourages more producers to send us their cabbages. But we can't set a tariff of 0% for just one country. If we decide to drop the tariff on cabbages to 0%, that becomes our new tariff for every country in the world. So we get flooded with cabbages from the cheapest producers on the planet. That's great if you love cabbages, but absolutely devastating if you're a UK cabbage farmer. You can't have it both ways. Either you shelter behind tariffs to protect domestic producers, or you reduce them or cut them to zero to encourage cheap imports - and destroy your local industry in the process. The rules of WTO force that tradeoff for every product sector. But that’s only half the picture. We have no control over other countries’ import tariffs, i.e. the tariffs imposed on the things UK-based producers export to them. If we’re trading with them on WTO terms, both the EU non-EU countries will impose whatever tariffs the WTO demands. Overnight, our exports will be more expensive. That, combined with the fact that we will no longer share common standards with the markets we export to (also covered by the treaties we will have lost) will make products manufactured in the UK significantly less competitive in the global market. For instance, why would any overseas consumer buy a UK-made car if they can get exactly the same car from the EU or elsewhere at a lower cost? Short answer: they won't. But what if the EU were to drop their tariff on cars to 0%? That would help our car producers, because our cars would no longer incur tariffs. However, "most favoured nation" would kick in. The EU would be forced to offer every country in the world 0% tariffs on cars. The mere notion is absurd. After all, the EU aren't going to leave their domestic market unprotected just to help the UK. It would be completely irrational to expect them to. So, in practice, trading on WTO terms will mean that everything we make in the UK will be more expensive for overseas consumers at a stroke. Some industries may be able to reduce their production costs to offset the tariffs; most will collapse. And we will be faced with the impossible task of choosing product by product, industry by industry, which producers to protect by maintaining our own tariffs, and which to throw to the wolves by cutting or eliminating our tariffs. If all of the above sounds grim, that's because it is. There are no countries in the world that trade exclusively on WTO terms with other nations. None whatsoever. Even North Korea has a couple of trade facilitation arrangements. We will have none. Nothing at all. No country has ever torn up all its international arrangements before (quite frankly, none have been crazy enough to). So we will be in a very lonely, exclusive club. So if somebody tells you the UK will be OK trading on WTO terms, they either: A) Don't understand what that means or B) They are lying to you. For example, Patrick Minford (of Economists for Brexit) is on record as stating that WTO would destroy the UK car industry, but that it would be a price worth paying for the freedom afforded by Brexit. In other words, Brexiters see manufacturers as collateral damage, to be swept aside in pursuit of Brexit. Perhaps you're not so sanguine? Perhaps you would quite like the UK to keep manufacturing things? In which case, you need to take heed of just how destructive, how damaging, trading on WTO terms would be. Estimates for the likely damage range from 7%-10% of GDP. Even at the low end, that's worse than the 2008 financial crash. But unlike the crash, we'd be deliberately, willingly inflicting the pain on ourselves. Incredible, but true. And the result would be the return of austerity, not for a few years, but for decades or generations to come. And Just because some may not understand all of this doesn’t mean that it isn’t true: WTO: just say no! This is one side of the story . However to many others wto terms will mean cheaper food and clothes . A few tweaks to duties are hardly going to destroy us. With reference to you points a and b. In order to form an opinion it is not necessary to understand the logic of reason in full . You can simply listen to the opinions of various organisations and form you r own opinion based on their creditability. When I fly I do not need to know how the plane works, I just need to know that it was built by a reliable manufacturer and the pilots are correctly trained.. Why would anyone lie over wto terms? We are talking about a future event with many unknown factors. When it comes to predicting the future there are two types of people. 1. Those who do not know. 2. Those who do not know that they do not know. If we can leave the EU without a deal , offers of a deal will flow in very quickly afterwards. We have nothing to lose.. Nothing to lose? God give me strength! Perhaps you should brush off your dunces cap as it seems self evident that you are already backed into a corner with your fingers in your ears! I cannot decide whether you are just malevolently trolling or a genuine idiot but I do feel that there is a consensus building about you and your asinine posts ( well over 52 percent of respondents seem to agree on that! ) Hi. Thanks for the reply. It is much appreciated. Maybe read some articles on the benefits of leaving without a deal and you might not see the necessity to make comments which I assume are meant to be sarcastic.
For now I will be holding the view that it is best to leave without a deal.
For the avoidance of doubt I repeat that we purchase more from the EU than we do from them .
In these circumstances we hold the winning cards.
You appear to want to surrender before the battle has begun.
A significant number of people now are happy to leave on wto terms .
Once we do this offers of deals will flow in thick and fast. "Hilarious! You answered the question perfectly with your talk of surrender and the battle just beginning! I imagine you believe the charge of the light brigade was a heroic victory too! Well done!  | |||
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" For the avoidance of doubt I repeat that we purchase more from the EU than we do from them . In these circumstances we hold the winning cards. " Which winning card is Mrs May playing in the Council of Ministers this week? | |||
" For the avoidance of doubt I repeat that we purchase more from the EU than we do from them . In these circumstances we hold the winning cards. Which winning card is Mrs May playing in the Council of Ministers this week? " 2 of Diamond? | |||
" For now I will be holding the view that it is best to leave without a deal. For the avoidance of doubt I repeat that we purchase more from the EU than we do from them . In these circumstances we hold the winning cards. " This quote sums you up 100% Pat! I. Rest. My. Fucking. Case | |||
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"I'm afraid there are plenty Brextremists who would rather starve to death than ever admit it might not have been such a good idea." | |||
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"Is it not enough that you peddle the same extremist negativity on every political thread, but you trawl up a thread from 19 weeks ago to continue the onslaught of negativity and scaremongering Why?" Spoken like a religious preacher who demands obedience of their single universal truth. You may believe the unicorns are waiting for you at the end of the rainbow. I don't. | |||
"Is it not enough that you peddle the same extremist negativity on every political thread, but you trawl up a thread from 19 weeks ago to continue the onslaught of negativity and scaremongering Why? Spoken like a religious preacher who demands obedience of their single universal truth. You may believe the unicorns are waiting for you at the end of the rainbow. I don't." Ok | |||
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"It's all going to be fucking fantastic "Hmmmm... | |||
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"industry is already reconfiguring distribution networks. Nothing is impossible! " Most likely, but as stated, they will be daft to loop that business through the UK if Brexit finally comes to pass. I have no concept of the impact that will have on the economy. But imagine it will at least hit some jobs, and reduce revenue for the Exchequer. | |||
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"I wonder how the trucks that used to serve all retailers in the island of Ireland from UK mainland distribution centres will manage when the island is cut in two for trade purposes? Will NI get its supplies from the south through some magic door on the border, or will the UK-based trucks not go any further south than Newry. And if the EU provided emergency help to Ireland in terms of continuity of supplies, and NI also suffered on the British side, would Dublin offer to share with Belfast? Don't know." Think of the reduction in pollution when all the irish trucks that travel through the uk to get to europe stop.Every cloud has a silver lining. | |||
