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Revolutions
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"How do they happen? The French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Russian Revolution. Dare I say it a Brexit revolution. I feel at times we are still playing out the after effects of the French Revolution." Revolution happens when the ruling class are too rigid and then start to lose control. The uk historically has evolved instead. Small incremental changes, such as giving poor people, women etc the vote. We’re taking some steps backwards at the moment. I wonder if we’re due a revolution when the full effects of Brexit set in. | |||
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"All seem to be sparked by political corruption coupled with conspicuous consumption by the richest in a society who hoard the wealth, while the vast majority of society are left to fend for themselves or starve (a bit like the results of Tory ideological austerity and US Republican economic policy). The big question is: Are the food riots going to hit the UK or the USA first? And the follow up question is will the Tories and Republicans attempt to use force to regain control thus precipitating a revolution? Or will they reverse their policies and attempt to remain a political power by sacrificing a few of their number o the mob while claiming that it was not them who caused the dis-rest in the first place. At present my money would be on option 1. Neither Trump or May are capable of backing down or taking advice on any issue." So your quoting about politics since it first came into existence,but probably less corrupt now than years ago.Time and history repeat and the world is not as you see it that is for sure | |||
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"Dave, I don't think it's as simple as saying that in Britain it was more evolution than revolution because poor people, or women, were 'given' the vote. On each of these momentous changes the ruling classes were forced, from below, to make these changes as the threat of revolution had become so intense that in many ways it can be seen as a tactic of the ruling class to keep their position. It's no coincidence that universal male suffrage and increasing female suffrage came about in a period of major unrest following the Chartist movement, mass miitarisation and training of thw working class to fight during WW1 and the upsurge in revolutionary activity throughout Europe. If you look at our history too, we do have a revolutionary past. We were probably the first nation to have our bourgeois revolution and usher in capitalism over feudalism, and executed a king in the process. This is one reason why Marx predicted socialist revolution in the UK before Germany, Russia etc etc; according to his theory it should happen in the most advanced capitalist states first, it was Leninism and vanguardism which changed strategy and emphasis I suppose. That we haven't progressed to a socialist revolution yet is a disappointment for some of us, but it is an inevitability. "This. The only way that the ruling classes capitulate is through fear. The fear of revolution in Europe after Russia in 1917 was palpable, you had the spartachists, the Paris commune etc etc. At that time, Lenin was still of the opinion that a revolution in Russia could not succeed without revolution in Western Europe and there were cominterns everywhere. The period after WW2 was similar- governments knew they had armed and trained the entire male population. Couple that with a lack of Labour because of the war dead, and the only truly Socialist government in Britain's history came to power and changed the political landscape to the extent that the establishment are still clawing things back that were gained in that period (and are sadly succeeding). | |||
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"The first thing any revolution in this country should do is remove the monarchy.Until that happens it's just moving the pieces around the board." Viva la republic | |||
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"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power." Sweden ranks as having the 8th happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh? | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?" Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is. | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?" Compare and contrast to your average Russian in 1917.  | |||
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"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now?  It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now."It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants. | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants. "I dont. I guess it depends how much pc you are, there is a big difference with good and bad immigration. | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants. "More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up!  | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants.
More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up! "No its not, you can still have an opinion on good and bad immagration. | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants.
More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up! No its not, you can still have an opinion on good and bad immagration."You can ask any remainer on that. | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants.
More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up! "Don't you mean hypocrisy? | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants.
More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up! No its not, you can still have an opinion on good and bad immagration."Lol, so it's just you who can have an opinion on good or bad immigration anyone else who says anything is a racist etc,as I said you couldn't make it up! | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants.
More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up! No its not, you can still have an opinion on good and bad immagration.
Lol, so it's just you who can have an opinion on good or bad immigration anyone else who says anything is a racist etc,as I said you couldn't make it up! "No. I havent said that, anyone can say it, can we stick to the thread. | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants.
More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up! No its not, you can still have an opinion on good and bad immagration.
Lol, so it's just you who can have an opinion on good or bad immigration anyone else who says anything is a racist etc,as I said you couldn't make it up! No. I havent said that, anyone can say it, can we stick to the thread."Don't try to wriggle out of it, you said about good and bad immigration on this thread but when anyone mentions it in relation to Brexit you are quick to condemn. You are concerned about immigration in your homeland but not in anyone elses, that makes you a hypocrite in my book, "justice for Northern Ireland" my arse! | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants.
More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up! No its not, you can still have an opinion on good and bad immagration.
Lol, so it's just you who can have an opinion on good or bad immigration anyone else who says anything is a racist etc,as I said you couldn't make it up! No. I havent said that, anyone can say it, can we stick to the thread.
Don't try to wriggle out of it, you said about good and bad immigration on this thread but when anyone mentions it in relation to Brexit you are quick to condemn. You are concerned about immigration in your homeland but not in anyone elses, that makes you a hypocrite in my book, "justice for Northern Ireland" my arse!"I dont and for northern ireland I meant like the brexiters dont respect the good friday agreement, so justice would be if they could still be in the eu and could you check the rules before you post if you got problems with others. | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants.
More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up! No its not, you can still have an opinion on good and bad immagration.
Lol, so it's just you who can have an opinion on good or bad immigration anyone else who says anything is a racist etc,as I said you couldn't make it up! No. I havent said that, anyone can say it, can we stick to the thread.
Don't try to wriggle out of it, you said about good and bad immigration on this thread but when anyone mentions it in relation to Brexit you are quick to condemn. You are concerned about immigration in your homeland but not in anyone elses, that makes you a hypocrite in my book, "justice for Northern Ireland" my arse!I dont and for northern ireland I meant like the brexiters dont respect the good friday agreement, so justice would be if they could still be in the eu and could you check the rules before you post if you got problems with others."I have no problem with you just what you CLEARLY posted regarding good and bad immigration in your homeland, don't try to make it personal! | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants.
More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up! No its not, you can still have an opinion on good and bad immagration.
Lol, so it's just you who can have an opinion on good or bad immigration anyone else who says anything is a racist etc,as I said you couldn't make it up! No. I havent said that, anyone can say it, can we stick to the thread.
Don't try to wriggle out of it, you said about good and bad immigration on this thread but when anyone mentions it in relation to Brexit you are quick to condemn. You are concerned about immigration in your homeland but not in anyone elses, that makes you a hypocrite in my book, "justice for Northern Ireland" my arse!I dont and for northern ireland I meant like the brexiters dont respect the good friday agreement, so justice would be if they could still be in the eu and could you check the rules before you post if you got problems with others.
I have no problem with you just what you CLEARLY posted regarding good and bad immigration in your homeland, don't try to make it personal!"Good. I dont and you clearly have a problem with it, you dont seem to understand it what good and bad immigration is. | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants.
More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up! No its not, you can still have an opinion on good and bad immagration.
Lol, so it's just you who can have an opinion on good or bad immigration anyone else who says anything is a racist etc,as I said you couldn't make it up! No. I havent said that, anyone can say it, can we stick to the thread.
Don't try to wriggle out of it, you said about good and bad immigration on this thread but when anyone mentions it in relation to Brexit you are quick to condemn. You are concerned about immigration in your homeland but not in anyone elses, that makes you a hypocrite in my book, "justice for Northern Ireland" my arse!I dont and for northern ireland I meant like the brexiters dont respect the good friday agreement, so justice would be if they could still be in the eu and could you check the rules before you post if you got problems with others.
I have no problem with you just what you CLEARLY posted regarding good and bad immigration in your homeland, don't try to make it personal!Good. I dont and you clearly have a problem with it, you dont seem to understand it what good and bad immigration is."It's you who doesn't understand what good and bad immigration is, in your homeland it's bad in everyone elses it's good! | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants.
More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up! No its not, you can still have an opinion on good and bad immagration.
Lol, so it's just you who can have an opinion on good or bad immigration anyone else who says anything is a racist etc,as I said you couldn't make it up! No. I havent said that, anyone can say it, can we stick to the thread.
Don't try to wriggle out of it, you said about good and bad immigration on this thread but when anyone mentions it in relation to Brexit you are quick to condemn. You are concerned about immigration in your homeland but not in anyone elses, that makes you a hypocrite in my book, "justice for Northern Ireland" my arse!I dont and for northern ireland I meant like the brexiters dont respect the good friday agreement, so justice would be if they could still be in the eu and could you check the rules before you post if you got problems with others.
I have no problem with you just what you CLEARLY posted regarding good and bad immigration in your homeland, don't try to make it personal!Good. I dont and you clearly have a problem with it, you dont seem to understand it what good and bad immigration is.
It's you who doesn't understand what good and bad immigration is, in your homeland it's bad in everyone elses it's good!"I do and no its not bad in other countries. I only said how it was in my country, anyway, we have to agree to disagree. | |||
"It happens when things go wrong, usually with bad choices from governments, the next revolution will come from sweden, radical feminism must be removed from power. Sweden ranks as having the 8th is happiest population in the world. Those “radical feminists” must be doing a good job eh?Yes it seems so, but it dont paint the whole picture of how it is.I forgot yo say why, cos of the 2015 mass immigration crisis. Aren't you a migrant shag...Or do you live in your country of birth now? It got nothing to do with what I am. I am just saying what problem sweden have now.
It's just amusing to hear a migrant complain about other migrants.
More hypocritical I would have said, especially for someone who continually berates people for voting leave in the referendum, you couldn't make it up! No its not, you can still have an opinion on good and bad immagration.
Lol, so it's just you who can have an opinion on good or bad immigration anyone else who says anything is a racist etc,as I said you couldn't make it up! No. I havent said that, anyone can say it, can we stick to the thread.
Don't try to wriggle out of it, you said about good and bad immigration on this thread but when anyone mentions it in relation to Brexit you are quick to condemn. You are concerned about immigration in your homeland but not in anyone elses, that makes you a hypocrite in my book, "justice for Northern Ireland" my arse!I dont and for northern ireland I meant like the brexiters dont respect the good friday agreement, so justice would be if they could still be in the eu and could you check the rules before you post if you got problems with others.
I have no problem with you just what you CLEARLY posted regarding good and bad immigration in your homeland, don't try to make it personal!Good. I dont and you clearly have a problem with it, you dont seem to understand it what good and bad immigration is.
It's you who doesn't understand what good and bad immigration is, in your homeland it's bad in everyone elses it's good!I do and no its not bad in other countries. I only said how it was in my country, anyway, we have to agree to disagree."Tell me why it's been bad in your country but not in others? | |||
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"How do you personally define "good immigration", and "bad immigration"?" Good is cobtrolled, background checks and assimilate, bad is when ot is uncontrolled and anyone can get in, how do you define it? | |||
"How do you personally define "good immigration", and "bad immigration"?Good is cobtrolled, background checks and assimilate, bad is when ot is uncontrolled and anyone can get in, how do you define it? " I don't define it. Immigrants are human beings, I don't judge them on their status as "immigrants". As evident with my life experiences, some people are lovely, some are okay, and some are nasty. If they arean immigrant or not has no bearing on their character. What we all know is that fear of immigrants is bullshit whipped up by the far right to distract from the real issues. | |||
"How do you personally define "good immigration", and "bad immigration"?Good is cobtrolled, background checks and assimilate, bad is when ot is uncontrolled and anyone can get in, how do you define it? I don't define it. Immigrants are human beings, I don't judge them on their status as "immigrants". As evident with my life experiences, some people are lovely, some are okay, and some are nasty. If they arean immigrant or not has no bearing on their character. What we all know is that fear of immigrants is bullshit whipped up by the far right to distract from the real issues." That is also good. | |||
"The first thing any revolution in this country should do is remove the monarchy.Until that happens it's just moving the pieces around the board. Viva la republic " All revolutions just move the pieces around nothing more | |||
"The first thing any revolution in this country should do is remove the monarchy.Until that happens it's just moving the pieces around the board. Viva la republic All revolutions just move the pieces around nothing more" What on earth do you mean? Did the British Bourgeouis revolution that ushered in capitalism just move the pieces? Did the French Revolution? Soviet Revolution? They ushered in totally new types of government. New systems. Why bother commenting on a politics forum regularly if you think there's no point in changing things as it's only moving the pieces? | |||
"How do you personally define "good immigration", and "bad immigration"?Good is cobtrolled, background checks and assimilate, bad is when ot is uncontrolled and anyone can get in, how do you define it? Lol you couldn't make this up! This poster regularly criticises leave voters for having similar thoughts and low and behold he has them himself, shake my head in disbelief! " | |||
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"Animal Farm should be on everyone’s reading list, especially early teens. Communism sounds lovely, the problem just lies with the fact that we are all human - Napoleon & Snowball appear far too often for real in society "There are just as many examples in "democratic" societies. Just look at the UK. | |||
"Animal Farm should be on everyone’s reading list, especially early teens. Communism sounds lovely, the problem just lies with the fact that we are all human - Napoleon & Snowball appear far too often for real in society
There are just as many examples in "democratic" societies. Just look at the UK. "So why would Revolution lead to anything better? All that happens is that you have a short (or in France & Russia’s experience, a long) period of blood letting and pain, followed by a ‘new’ & enlightened leadership who line their own pockets and exploit the population - we are human, Communism does not change that. Democracy is the best choice, imperfect as it is. | |||
"Animal Farm should be on everyone’s reading list, especially early teens. Communism sounds lovely, the problem just lies with the fact that we are all human - Napoleon & Snowball appear far too often for real in society
There are just as many examples in "democratic" societies. Just look at the UK.
So why would Revolution lead to anything better? All that happens is that you have a short (or in France & Russia’s experience, a long) period of blood letting and pain, followed by a ‘new’ & enlightened leadership who line their own pockets and exploit the population - we are human, Communism does not change that. Democracy is the best choice, imperfect as it is."A) France's (and Ireland's) was a "democratic" revolution. Feudal power wasn't just surrendered willingly (see also: Europe 1848-62). B)Does democracy equate to choice? Look at the UK press, for example. No newspapers are owned by trusts/co-ops anymore and so they are all with a right wing spectrum. "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum" - Noam Chomsky | |||
 The problem with the human race is that we are human. With the best will in the world people just can’t be arsed after a while and some chancer gets to be in charge, power goes to his head (tends to be largely a male problem) and then everyone else does his bidding, usually involving secret police, torture, disappearing and eventually a recognition that the once popular revolution got hijacked. The Theory has always been marvellous, but in practice it has been shit. | |||
"Russia’s was a ‘democratic’ revolution to start with as well The problem with the human race is that we are human. With the best will in the world people just can’t be arsed after a while and some chancer gets to be in charge, power goes to his head (tends to be largely a male problem) and then everyone else does his bidding, usually involving secret police, torture, disappearing and eventually a recognition that the once popular revolution got hijacked. The Theory has always been marvellous, but in practice it has been shit."So that's what happened in France? Italy? Germany? Ireland? The USA? All have had revolutions. The Soviet revolution wasn't democratic, in that sense, it was vanguardist. You might argue that for countries that have revolutions prior to their industrialisation, democracy is not a viable choice- industrial revolutions subjugate humanity and cause disease and death, nobody would vote for it. Britain was certainly not a democracy when we had ours, and the new bourgeoisie slaughtered millions in the wheels of industry. | |||
"Russia’s was a ‘democratic’ revolution to start with as well The problem with the human race is that we are human. With the best will in the world people just can’t be arsed after a while and some chancer gets to be in charge, power goes to his head (tends to be largely a male problem) and then everyone else does his bidding, usually involving secret police, torture, disappearing and eventually a recognition that the once popular revolution got hijacked. The Theory has always been marvellous, but in practice it has been shit.
So that's what happened in France? Italy? Germany? Ireland? The USA? All have had revolutions.
The Soviet revolution wasn't democratic, in that sense, it was vanguardist.
You might argue that for countries that have revolutions prior to their industrialisation, democracy is not a viable choice- industrial revolutions subjugate humanity and cause disease and death, nobody would vote for it. Britain was certainly not a democracy when we had ours, and the new bourgeoisie slaughtered millions in the wheels of industry. "& looking forward, what do you propose to avoid Animal Farm? | |||
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"My question was what should be the alternative? Analysing History is fine, critiqing Orwell is fine, but my point is that Human nature is the problem and Animal Farm is a great example of it "We can only learn by analysing the past, surely. The alternative is genuine democracy. Socialist democracy and the abolition of capitalism. I disagree that human nature is the problem. We have evolved as social animals, who can only succeed when we work together. When I said that Marx had stated that "In every epoch, the ideas of the ruling class are the ruling ideas" then that is the crux of our problem. We're raised under capitalism and trained to believe that it is the only way to act and behave, or it is 'human nature'. Look pre-capitalism and you see a different story. There has to be something better than this, a better system, based on us all working for eachother, rather than us being exploited for our excess value and milked dry by fat cat bosses. 1300 billionaires control 94% of the world's wealth. The remaining 6% is fought over by 7 billion people. That is capitalism in a nutshell. Another stat says that the richest 8 people in the world have as much as the poorest 3.6 billion people. Capitalism is anathema to democracy. | |||
"My question was what should be the alternative? Analysing History is fine, critiqing Orwell is fine, but my point is that Human nature is the problem and Animal Farm is a great example of it
We can only learn by analysing the past, surely.
The alternative is genuine democracy. Socialist democracy and the abolition of capitalism.
I disagree that human nature is the problem. We have evolved as social animals, who can only succeed when we work together.
When I said that Marx had stated that "In every epoch, the ideas of the ruling class are the ruling ideas" then that is the crux of our problem. We're raised under capitalism and trained to believe that it is the only way to act and behave, or it is 'human nature'. Look pre-capitalism and you see a different story.
There has to be something better than this, a better system, based on us all working for eachother, rather than us being exploited for our excess value and milked dry by fat cat bosses. 1300 billionaires control 94% of the world's wealth. The remaining 6% is fought over by 7 billion people. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
Another stat says that the richest 8 people in the world have as much as the poorest 3.6 billion people.
Capitalism is anathema to democracy."I do not disagree with the concept of a social democracy, I have read Marx, Engels and many others and the philosophy is not without merit. In the same way Capitalism has merit, and it has major flaws - witness your point about wealth being held by the few and exploitation of the poor, especially for raw material extraction. However, picking up on your point about analysing history to consider the future, we do not have a successful example of a Marxist or Socialist Democracy. We have many examples of Capitalist Democracies, both successful and unsuccessful. We also have many examples of individuals who have revolutionary ideas where they want to do the right thing for their people (snowball & Napoleon), but then due to human nature they fall out, or start to believe only they know the way forward and form ‘benevolent dictatorships’, that become less benevolent very quickly. Is this accidental, no, not really. Human nature is essentially about self, it is interested in close family and friends but beyond that narrow grouping tends to be a bit ambivalent in anything other than the short term. History shows miriad examples of these failures.so is their no hope? Well not exactly, whilst flawed, democracies in a broadly capitalist sense do work the best - however they do need checks & balances on the executive, the government, the civil service, the judiciary, the media, regulation, etc. How far away from this goal are we? It feels like a huge distance with the likes of Trump et al, however I remain hopeful that we can change society through democracy - for example criminal proceedings against liars like BJ, Farage, etc (see not always so benevolent  ) | |||
"My question was what should be the alternative? Analysing History is fine, critiqing Orwell is fine, but my point is that Human nature is the problem and Animal Farm is a great example of it
We can only learn by analysing the past, surely.
The alternative is genuine democracy. Socialist democracy and the abolition of capitalism.
I disagree that human nature is the problem. We have evolved as social animals, who can only succeed when we work together.
When I said that Marx had stated that "In every epoch, the ideas of the ruling class are the ruling ideas" then that is the crux of our problem. We're raised under capitalism and trained to believe that it is the only way to act and behave, or it is 'human nature'. Look pre-capitalism and you see a different story.
There has to be something better than this, a better system, based on us all working for eachother, rather than us being exploited for our excess value and milked dry by fat cat bosses. 1300 billionaires control 94% of the world's wealth. The remaining 6% is fought over by 7 billion people. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
Another stat says that the richest 8 people in the world have as much as the poorest 3.6 billion people.
Capitalism is anathema to democracy.
I do not disagree with the concept of a social democracy, I have read Marx, Engels and many others and the philosophy is not without merit. In the same way Capitalism has merit, and it has major flaws - witness your point about wealth being held by the few and exploitation of the poor, especially for raw material extraction.
However, picking up on your point about analysing history to consider the future, we do not have a successful example of a Marxist or Socialist Democracy. We have many examples of Capitalist Democracies, both successful and unsuccessful.
We also have many examples of individuals who have revolutionary ideas where they want to do the right thing for their people (snowball & Napoleon), but then due to human nature they fall out, or start to believe only they know the way forward and form ‘benevolent dictatorships’, that become less benevolent very quickly.
Is this accidental, no, not really. Human nature is essentially about self, it is interested in close family and friends but beyond that narrow grouping tends to be a bit ambivalent in anything other than the short term.
History shows miriad examples of these failures.so is their no hope? Well not exactly, whilst flawed, democracies in a broadly capitalist sense do work the best - however they do need checks & balances on the executive, the government, the civil service, the judiciary, the media, regulation, etc.
How far away from this goal are we? It feels like a huge distance with the likes of Trump et al, however I remain hopeful that we can change society through democracy - for example criminal proceedings against liars like BJ, Farage, etc (see not always so benevolent )"The answer, then is to organise society on that local, decentralised level. Anarchosyndicalism is probably as close to "human nature" as you could get. The problem, of course is that capitalists won't give up power without a struggle. Whilst social democracies in Scandinavia and parts of Europe are encouraging, and infinitely preferable to the UK system, I can't see equal societies happening without a sweeping away of the capitalist class. Although I do wonder that AI is unwittingly orchestrating the demise of capitalism as we know it. | |||
"My question was what should be the alternative? Analysing History is fine, critiqing Orwell is fine, but my point is that Human nature is the problem and Animal Farm is a great example of it
We can only learn by analysing the past, surely.
The alternative is genuine democracy. Socialist democracy and the abolition of capitalism.
I disagree that human nature is the problem. We have evolved as social animals, who can only succeed why en we work together.
When I said that Marx had stated that "In every epoch, the ideas of the ruling class are the ruling ideas" then that is the crux of our problem. We're raised under capitalism and trained to believe that it is the only way to act and behave, or it is 'human nature'. Look pre-capitalism and you see a different story.
There has to be something better than this, a better system, based on us all working for eachother, rather than us being exploited for our excess value and milked dry by fat cat bosses. 1300 billionaires control 94% of the world's wealth. The remaining 6% is fought over by 7 billion people. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
Another stat says that the richest 8 people in the world have as much as the poorest 3.6 billion people.
Capitalism is anathema to democracy.
I do not disagree with the concept of a social democracy, I have read Marx, Engels and many others and the philosophy is not without merit. In the same way Capitalism has merit, and it has major flaws - witness your point about wealth being held by the few and exploitation of the poor, especially for raw material extraction.
However, picking up on your point about analysing history to consider the future, we do not have a successful example of a Marxist or Socialist Democracy. We have many examples of Capitalist Democracies, both successful and unsuccessful.
We also have many examples of individuals who have revolutionary ideas where they want to do the right thing for their people (snowball & Napoleon), but then due to human nature they fall out, or start to believe only they know the way forward and form ‘benevolent dictatorships’, that become less benevolent very quickly.
Is this accidental, no, not really. Human nature is essentially about self, it is interested in close family and friends but beyond that narrow grouping tends to be a bit ambivalent in anything other than the short term.
History shows miriad examples of these failures.so is their no hope? Well not exactly, whilst flawed, democracies in a broadly capitalist sense do work the best - however they do need checks & balances on the executive, the government, the civil service, the judiciary, the media, regulation, etc.
How far away from this goal are we? It feels like a huge distance with the likes of Trump et al, however I remain hopeful that we can change society through democracy - for example criminal proceedings against liars like BJ, Farage, etc (see not always so benevolent )
The answer, then is to organise society on that local, decentralised level. Anarchosyndicalism is probably as close to "human nature" as you could get.
The problem, of course is that capitalists won't give up power without a struggle. Whilst social democracies in Scandinavia and parts of Europe are encouraging, and infinitely preferable to the UK system, I can't see equal societies happening without a sweeping away of the capitalist class.
Although I do wonder that AI is unwittingly orchestrating the demise of capitalism as we know it."Interesting point jimmy .I do believe AI will usher in an age of abundance and this will be the death blow to capitalism. Energy is the key.The costs are being driven down year on year and solar is now cheaper than fossil fuels.Then we have automation driving down the costs of production which will increase productivity.There are hurdles but disruptive technologies will force change upon the state. | |||
"My question was what should be the alternative? Analysing History is fine, critiqing Orwell is fine, but my point is that Human nature is the problem and Animal Farm is a great example of it
We can only learn by analysing the past, surely.
The alternative is genuine democracy. Socialist democracy and the abolition of capitalism.
I disagree that human nature is the problem. We have evolved as social animals, who can only succeed why en we work together.
When I said that Marx had stated that "In every epoch, the ideas of the ruling class are the ruling ideas" then that is the crux of our problem. We're raised under capitalism and trained to believe that it is the only way to act and behave, or it is 'human nature'. Look pre-capitalism and you see a different story.
There has to be something better than this, a better system, based on us all working for eachother, rather than us being exploited for our excess value and milked dry by fat cat bosses. 1300 billionaires control 94% of the world's wealth. The remaining 6% is fought over by 7 billion people. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
Another stat says that the richest 8 people in the world have as much as the poorest 3.6 billion people.
Capitalism is anathema to democracy.
I do not disagree with the concept of a social democracy, I have read Marx, Engels and many others and the philosophy is not without merit. In the same way Capitalism has merit, and it has major flaws - witness your point about wealth being held by the few and exploitation of the poor, especially for raw material extraction.
However, picking up on your point about analysing history to consider the future, we do not have a successful example of a Marxist or Socialist Democracy. We have many examples of Capitalist Democracies, both successful and unsuccessful.
We also have many examples of individuals who have revolutionary ideas where they want to do the right thing for their people (snowball & Napoleon), but then due to human nature they fall out, or start to believe only they know the way forward and form ‘benevolent dictatorships’, that become less benevolent very quickly.
Is this accidental, no, not really. Human nature is essentially about self, it is interested in close family and friends but beyond that narrow grouping tends to be a bit ambivalent in anything other than the short term.
History shows miriad examples of these failures.so is their no hope? Well not exactly, whilst flawed, democracies in a broadly capitalist sense do work the best - however they do need checks & balances on the executive, the government, the civil service, the judiciary, the media, regulation, etc.
How far away from this goal are we? It feels like a huge distance with the likes of Trump et al, however I remain hopeful that we can change society through democracy - for example criminal proceedings against liars like BJ, Farage, etc (see not always so benevolent )
The answer, then is to organise society on that local, decentralised level. Anarchosyndicalism is probably as close to "human nature" as you could get.
The problem, of course is that capitalists won't give up power without a struggle. Whilst social democracies in Scandinavia and parts of Europe are encouraging, and infinitely preferable to the UK system, I can't see equal societies happening without a sweeping away of the capitalist class.
Although I do wonder that AI is unwittingly orchestrating the demise of capitalism as we know it.
Interesting point jimmy .I do believe AI will usher in an age of abundance and this will be the death blow to capitalism.
Energy is the key.The costs are being driven down year on year and solar is now cheaper than fossil fuels.Then we have automation driving down the costs of production which will increase productivity.There are hurdles but disruptive technologies will force change upon the state.
"I’m afraid I have less faith in AI. At least with humans, people ultimately rebel, with AI I see a more dystopian future | |||
"My question was what should be the alternative? Analysing History is fine, critiqing Orwell is fine, but my point is that Human nature is the problem and Animal Farm is a great example of it
We can only learn by analysing the past, surely.
The alternative is genuine democracy. Socialist democracy and the abolition of capitalism.
I disagree that human nature is the problem. We have evolved as social animals, who can only succeed why en we work together.
When I said that Marx had stated that "In every epoch, the ideas of the ruling class are the ruling ideas" then that is the crux of our problem. We're raised under capitalism and trained to believe that it is the only way to act and behave, or it is 'human nature'. Look pre-capitalism and you see a different story.
There has to be something better than this, a better system, based on us all working for eachother, rather than us being exploited for our excess value and milked dry by fat cat bosses. 1300 billionaires control 94% of the world's wealth. The remaining 6% is fought over by 7 billion people. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
Another stat says that the richest 8 people in the world have as much as the poorest 3.6 billion people.
Capitalism is anathema to democracy.
I do not disagree with the concept of a social democracy, I have read Marx, Engels and many others and the philosophy is not without merit. In the same way Capitalism has merit, and it has major flaws - witness your point about wealth being held by the few and exploitation of the poor, especially for raw material extraction.
However, picking up on your point about analysing history to consider the future, we do not have a successful example of a Marxist or Socialist Democracy. We have many examples of Capitalist Democracies, both successful and unsuccessful.
We also have many examples of individuals who have revolutionary ideas where they want to do the right thing for their people (snowball & Napoleon), but then due to human nature they fall out, or start to believe only they know the way forward and form ‘benevolent dictatorships’, that become less benevolent very quickly.
Is this accidental, no, not really. Human nature is essentially about self, it is interested in close family and friends but beyond that narrow grouping tends to be a bit ambivalent in anything other than the short term.
History shows miriad examples of these failures.so is their no hope? Well not exactly, whilst flawed, democracies in a broadly capitalist sense do work the best - however they do need checks & balances on the executive, the government, the civil service, the judiciary, the media, regulation, etc.
How far away from this goal are we? It feels like a huge distance with the likes of Trump et al, however I remain hopeful that we can change society through democracy - for example criminal proceedings against liars like BJ, Farage, etc (see not always so benevolent )
The answer, then is to organise society on that local, decentralised level. Anarchosyndicalism is probably as close to "human nature" as you could get.
The problem, of course is that capitalists won't give up power without a struggle. Whilst social democracies in Scandinavia and parts of Europe are encouraging, and infinitely preferable to the UK system, I can't see equal societies happening without a sweeping away of the capitalist class.
Although I do wonder that AI is unwittingly orchestrating the demise of capitalism as we know it.
Interesting point jimmy .I do believe AI will usher in an age of abundance and this will be the death blow to capitalism.
Energy is the key.The costs are being driven down year on year and solar is now cheaper than fossil fuels.Then we have automation driving down the costs of production which will increase productivity.There are hurdles but disruptive technologies will force change upon the state.
I’m afraid I have less faith in AI. At least with humans, people ultimately rebel, with AI I see a more dystopian future "It could be dystopian if we weaponise AI .All technologies can be used as a tool for good or bad .Like nuclear technology.It can incinerate billions or power billions of homes. The only thing that's certain is disruptive technologies are here with us now and will only become more common place in the future.Its up to us how we use them. | |||
"My question was what should be the alternative? Analysing History is fine, critiqing Orwell is fine, but my point is that Human nature is the problem and Animal Farm is a great example of it
We can only learn by analysing the past, surely.
The alternative is genuine democracy. Socialist democracy and the abolition of capitalism.
I disagree that human nature is the problem. We have evolved as social animals, who can only succeed why en we work together.
When I said that Marx had stated that "In every epoch, the ideas of the ruling class are the ruling ideas" then that is the crux of our problem. We're raised under capitalism and trained to believe that it is the only way to act and behave, or it is 'human nature'. Look pre-capitalism and you see a different story.
There has to be something better than this, a better system, based on us all working for eachother, rather than us being exploited for our excess value and milked dry by fat cat bosses. 1300 billionaires control 94% of the world's wealth. The remaining 6% is fought over by 7 billion people. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
Another stat says that the richest 8 people in the world have as much as the poorest 3.6 billion people.
Capitalism is anathema to democracy.
I do not disagree with the concept of a social democracy, I have read Marx, Engels and many others and the philosophy is not without merit. In the same way Capitalism has merit, and it has major flaws - witness your point about wealth being held by the few and exploitation of the poor, especially for raw material extraction.
However, picking up on your point about analysing history to consider the future, we do not have a successful example of a Marxist or Socialist Democracy. We have many examples of Capitalist Democracies, both successful and unsuccessful.
We also have many examples of individuals who have revolutionary ideas where they want to do the right thing for their people (snowball & Napoleon), but then due to human nature they fall out, or start to believe only they know the way forward and form ‘benevolent dictatorships’, that become less benevolent very quickly.
Is this accidental, no, not really. Human nature is essentially about self, it is interested in close family and friends but beyond that narrow grouping tends to be a bit ambivalent in anything other than the short term.
History shows miriad examples of these failures.so is their no hope? Well not exactly, whilst flawed, democracies in a broadly capitalist sense do work the best - however they do need checks & balances on the executive, the government, the civil service, the judiciary, the media, regulation, etc.
How far away from this goal are we? It feels like a huge distance with the likes of Trump et al, however I remain hopeful that we can change society through democracy - for example criminal proceedings against liars like BJ, Farage, etc (see not always so benevolent )
The answer, then is to organise society on that local, decentralised level. Anarchosyndicalism is probably as close to "human nature" as you could get.
The problem, of course is that capitalists won't give up power without a struggle. Whilst social democracies in Scandinavia and parts of Europe are encouraging, and infinitely preferable to the UK system, I can't see equal societies happening without a sweeping away of the capitalist class.
Although I do wonder that AI is unwittingly orchestrating the demise of capitalism as we know it.
Interesting point jimmy .I do believe AI will usher in an age of abundance and this will be the death blow to capitalism.
Energy is the key.The costs are being driven down year on year and solar is now cheaper than fossil fuels.Then we have automation driving down the costs of production which will increase productivity.There are hurdles but disruptive technologies will force change upon the state.
I’m afraid I have less faith in AI. At least with humans, people ultimately rebel, with AI I see a more dystopian future "That wasn't really my point - AI will ultimately mean that an awful lot of jobs simply won't exist and the labour market will contract massively. Governments will have to address it somehow, hence experiments with universal wages, 4 day weeks etc. However, workers being obsolete ultimately mean that the bosses are obsolete, workforce management won't exist. | |||
"My question was what should be the alternative? Analysing History is fine, critiqing Orwell is fine, but my point is that Human nature is the problem and Animal Farm is a great example of it
We can only learn by analysing the past, surely.
The alternative is genuine democracy. Socialist democracy and the abolition of capitalism.
I disagree that human nature is the problem. We have evolved as social animals, who can only succeed why en we work together.
When I said that Marx had stated that "In every epoch, the ideas of the ruling class are the ruling ideas" then that is the crux of our problem. We're raised under capitalism and trained to believe that it is the only way to act and behave, or it is 'human nature'. Look pre-capitalism and you see a different story.
There has to be something better than this, a better system, based on us all working for eachother, rather than us being exploited for our excess value and milked dry by fat cat bosses. 1300 billionaires control 94% of the world's wealth. The remaining 6% is fought over by 7 billion people. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
Another stat says that the richest 8 people in the world have as much as the poorest 3.6 billion people.
Capitalism is anathema to democracy.
I do not disagree with the concept of a social democracy, I have read Marx, Engels and many others and the philosophy is not without merit. In the same way Capitalism has merit, and it has major flaws - witness your point about wealth being held by the few and exploitation of the poor, especially for raw material extraction.
However, picking up on your point about analysing history to consider the future, we do not have a successful example of a Marxist or Socialist Democracy. We have many examples of Capitalist Democracies, both successful and unsuccessful.
We also have many examples of individuals who have revolutionary ideas where they want to do the right thing for their people (snowball & Napoleon), but then due to human nature they fall out, or start to believe only they know the way forward and form ‘benevolent dictatorships’, that become less benevolent very quickly.
Is this accidental, no, not really. Human nature is essentially about self, it is interested in close family and friends but beyond that narrow grouping tends to be a bit ambivalent in anything other than the short term.
History shows miriad examples of these failures.so is their no hope? Well not exactly, whilst flawed, democracies in a broadly capitalist sense do work the best - however they do need checks & balances on the executive, the government, the civil service, the judiciary, the media, regulation, etc.
How far away from this goal are we? It feels like a huge distance with the likes of Trump et al, however I remain hopeful that we can change society through democracy - for example criminal proceedings against liars like BJ, Farage, etc (see not always so benevolent )
The answer, then is to organise society on that local, decentralised level. Anarchosyndicalism is probably as close to "human nature" as you could get.
The problem, of course is that capitalists won't give up power without a struggle. Whilst social democracies in Scandinavia and parts of Europe are encouraging, and infinitely preferable to the UK system, I can't see equal societies happening without a sweeping away of the capitalist class.
Although I do wonder that AI is unwittingly orchestrating the demise of capitalism as we know it.
Interesting point jimmy .I do believe AI will usher in an age of abundance and this will be the death blow to capitalism.
Energy is the key.The costs are being driven down year on year and solar is now cheaper than fossil fuels.Then we have automation driving down the costs of production which will increase productivity.There are hurdles but disruptive technologies will force change upon the state.
I’m afraid I have less faith in AI. At least with humans, people ultimately rebel, with AI I see a more dystopian future
It could be dystopian if we weaponise AI .All technologies can be used as a tool for good or bad .Like nuclear technology.It can incinerate billions or power billions of homes.
The only thing that's certain is disruptive technologies are here with us now and will only become more common place in the future.Its up to us how we use them.
"...we’d better put it to a vote then! | |||
"Animal Farm should be on everyone’s reading list, especially early teens. Communism sounds lovely, the problem just lies with the fact that we are all human - Napoleon & Snowball appear far too often for real in society "Yes so very true,animal farm should be compulsory reading for children I think,great book and so very clever | |||
"All seem to be sparked by political corruption coupled with conspicuous consumption by the richest in a society who hoard the wealth, while the vast majority of society are left to fend for themselves or starve (a bit like the results of Tory ideological austerity and US Republican economic policy). The big question is: Are the food riots going to hit the UK or the USA first? And the follow up question is will the Tories and Republicans attempt to use force to regain control thus precipitating a revolution? Or will they reverse their policies and attempt to remain a political power by sacrificing a few of their number o the mob while claiming that it was not them who caused the dis-rest in the first place. At present my money would be on option 1. Neither Trump or May are capable of backing down or taking advice on any issue." Thanks Will have not laughed so much in ages you are very very funny although you probably do not realise it | |||
"How do they happen? The French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Russian Revolution. Dare I say it a Brexit revolution. I feel at times we are still playing out the after effects of the French Revolution." Try reading a history book | |||
