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Bloody Sunday conviction

By *aid back OP Man over a year ago

by a lake with my rod out

"The Public Prosecution Service of Northern Ireland this morning recommended that one former paratrooper – soldier F – is to be charged with two murders and four attempted murders during Bloody Sunday in Londonderry in 1972, Northern Ireland’s Public Prosecution Service (PPS) has announced.

Prosecutions against the 16 other former members of the 1st Battalion Parachute Regiment in relation to the events of January 30 1972 will not be taken."

So 16 paras get away with murder. So who killed the rest of the civil rights marchers that day ?

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By *ovelifelovefuntimesMan over a year ago

Where ever I lay my hat

A very sensitive issue and heart breaking for the families involved. But the Good Friday agreement provided a framework where people were given immunity in order to secure lasting peace. I see no value in dragging this up now and opening a whole can or worms. Leave it in the past and let peace prevail.

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By *ex4unowCouple over a year ago

near you

If we prosecute annyone involved

we should prosecute everyone involved

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"A very sensitive issue and heart breaking for the families involved. But the Good Friday agreement provided a framework where people were given immunity in order to secure lasting peace. I see no value in dragging this up now and opening a whole can or worms. Leave it in the past and let peace prevail."

Well that's not true.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"If we prosecute annyone involved

we should prosecute everyone involved "

If you've seen live footage of identifiable republicans murdering people and they weren't subsequently prosecuted please let us know.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Not prosecuting someone for multiple murders is more likely to open a can of worms than prosecuting them.

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

If the evidence shows behaviour that was reckless, then yes justice should prevail.

The moral of the story is don’t ask soldiers to do the job of the police. They are not trained for that.

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By *ercuryMan over a year ago

Grantham

It's a case of the wether the DPP can reasonably secure a conviction or not.

There are certain tests for this, and the DPP conclude that the evidence just isn't there to get a conviction on any other soldiers.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army

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By *bi_AstrayTV/TS over a year ago

Plymouth

"And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army "

Yeah, who wants to join the army when you can't get away with murder...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If we prosecute annyone involved

we should prosecute everyone involved "

Agreed, if UK soldiers are to be prosecuted over the Troubles then full investigations into everything on both sides should be reopened and everyone brought before the courts.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army

Yeah, who wants to join the army when you can't get away with murder..."

Well quite.

But I think now, young people are more polically aware. And therefore less likely to want to get shot raiding a villiage in the Middle East, purely to benefit the oil and arms companies.

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By *eglover62TV/TS over a year ago

Ayr

The most sensible view on a terrible situation

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By *mmabluTV/TS over a year ago

upton wirral

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By *laytimenowMan over a year ago

Essex

I think this is more about the Ballymurphy massacre .

Great documentary on it recently

Involving the Paras again.

If they had cameras at that Bloody Sunday would not have happened.

All those murdered at Ballymurphy are still not classed as innocent as againg the chief man of para claimed again his lot came under fire.

The inquest is certainly throwing it all out there

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army

Yeah, who wants to join the army when you can't get away with murder..."

And what about all of the murdering cunts in the ira ect ? All the ones who got the free passes

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army

Yeah, who wants to join the army when you can't get away with murder...

And what about all of the murdering cunts in the ira ect ? All the ones who got the free passes

these were unarmed and peacfully protesting civillians....the IRA cunts are a seperate issue. If a state can open fire on general members of the public without some sort of reaction then.... god help us all. Do not get confused with armed ira members and regular folk out protesting for their rights as citizens....

anti war dot com

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army "

So nothing to do with upping the minimum service term to 5 years, reducing military numbers to such an extent that all those in the forces spend most of their time on active service, while all the benefits of being in the military are being stripped from those serving.

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

"I think this is more about the Ballymurphy massacre .

Great documentary on it recently

Involving the Paras again.

If they had cameras at that Bloody Sunday would not have happened.

All those murdered at Ballymurphy are still not classed as innocent as againg the chief man of para claimed again his lot came under fire.

The inquest is certainly throwing it all out there

The British Establishment is better at covering up than 'fessing up.

Why is that?

An arrogant sense of entitlement.

Bloody Sunday is the just the latest in a long line on scandals where a story was fabricated, where innocents were smeared and villainised, in order to protect the guilty.

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By *arlomaleMan over a year ago

darlington

"I think this is more about the Ballymurphy massacre .

Great documentary on it recently

Involving the Paras again.

If they had cameras at that Bloody Sunday would not have happened.

All those murdered at Ballymurphy are still not classed as innocent as againg the chief man of para claimed again his lot came under fire.

The inquest is certainly throwing it all out there

The British Establishment is better at covering up than 'fessing up.

Why is that?

An arrogant sense of entitlement.

Bloody Sunday is the just the latest in a long line on scandals where a story was fabricated, where innocents were smeared and villainised, in order to protect the guilty.

"
not like the establishment to put up smoke sceeen is it we all know about hillsborugh and we all knew the truth 30 years ago but one big cover up absolutely shocking what goes on

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"The British Establishment is better at covering up than 'fessing up.

Why is that?

An arrogant sense of entitlement.

Bloody Sunday is the just the latest in a long line on scandals where a story was fabricated, where innocents were smeared and villainised, in order to protect the guilty.

Agreed... Hillsboro...

The real question should be how come none of the officers, who ordered their men to attack unarmed civil rights protesters and then allowed their men to run riot and murder people it was their duty to protect, have been charged with any of the myriad of crimes they committed on the day and afterwards.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

""The Public Prosecution Service of Northern Ireland this morning recommended that one former paratrooper – soldier F – is to be charged with two murders and four attempted murders during Bloody Sunday in Londonderry in 1972, Northern Ireland’s Public Prosecution Service (PPS) has announced.

Prosecutions against the 16 other former members of the 1st Battalion Parachute Regiment in relation to the events of January 30 1972 will not be taken."

So 16 paras get away with murder. So who killed the rest of the civil rights marchers that day ?"
No one is getting away with murder. I am certain that none of the paratroopers got up on the morning concerned and planned to murder.

They were simply doing a job and attempting to keep the peace in difficult circumstances .

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

They were simply doing a job and attempting to keep the peace in difficult circumstances . "

No-one who is "simply doing their job" gets charged with murder.

I've never seen that on a job description: "must be willing to slaughter the citizens you pledge to protect".

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By *bi_AstrayTV/TS over a year ago

Plymouth

"And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army

Yeah, who wants to join the army when you can't get away with murder...

And what about all of the murdering cunts in the ira ect ? All the ones who got the free passes

anti war dot com"

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I can only speak as a Veteran on this matter. I'm not here to challenge anyone else's view, just putting my own across.

I've been in a similair situation to "Bloody Sunday" Myself. Fortunately for all involved, nothing bad actually happened.

It was very scary. It always is stepping outside the saftey of camp. You have no idea which eyes are friendly and which are looking at you through the sights of a gun. You're on constant high alert that never dies away. Even today I'll freak out a bit over a random firework or crowded, noisy environments a bit and need headspace.

I was also very young, naive, lacked confidence and had been broken a bit and built back up by Basic Training. We also had NO RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. Only common sense to go off.

I've always been a bit of a 'fuck authority' kind of person and my privileged childhood gave me enough confidence to challenge the direct order I was given to Kill innocent people.

I didn't think we should have been Iraq in the first place, but peer pressure pushed me into it. I didn't object on moral grounds, which still eats at me today. I was 23 and still very naive at the time. Like many of my peers, who hadn't grown up in the Middle East. Didn't know Arab culture like I did. Didn't follow politics like I did.

These were young men who mostly struggled in school, great at Physical stuff, but on the whole, n

there were very few brainiacs amongst our number. Nearly all of us joined because we wanted to be hero's and protect people. We all believed that Britain was a good country, because that's all we hear about every Remembrance Day as kids.

Glory, Honour, Sacrifice for the Greater good.

As an almost 40yr old pool boy whose politics are so far off the spectrum that I'm labelled an idealist, humanitariam or utopian.

I feel the only way to truly show love and respect to those who die protecting us whilst we eat, sleep and fuck. The forces personnel who bleed to death alongside our 'enemies' in pools of shit, screams and tears.

Is to stop - fucking - killing -people over shit that doesn't really matter! Usually power, money, religion or nationalism. Let the dead rest and the survivors survive, whichever side they're on. Put and end to this nonsense. It's over. Done. Show some empathy, compassion, realise the anger comes from grief and loss. Forgive. Let go, move on.

Be happy. Peace.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If my situation had gone bad. Should I as the naive young boy with the gun.. be held responsible, if I'm given direct orders to do something by a Senior Non Comissioned Officer? Or should they? Both of us? Or the person who gave him orders? The Prime Minister? All of you, who as a political 'democracy' sent us there?

The IRA for fighting the cause they believed in? The Iraqis fighting for theirs?

Where does it end? Where does it begin?

I took responsibility for my own actions. I'm me though.

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"I can only speak as a Veteran on this matter. I'm not here to challenge anyone else's view, just putting my own across.

I've been in a similair situation to "Bloody Sunday" Myself. Fortunately for all involved, nothing bad actually happened.

I was also very young, naive, lacked confidence and had been broken a bit and built back up by Basic Training. We also had NO RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. Only common sense to go off.

I've always been a bit of a 'fuck authority' kind of person and my privileged childhood gave me enough confidence to challenge the direct order I was given to Kill innocent people.

These were young men who mostly struggled in school, great at Physical stuff, but on the whole, n

Glory, Honour, Sacrifice for the Greater good.

As an almost 40yr old pool boy whose politics are so far off the spectrum that I'm labelled an idealist, humanitariam or utopian.

Be happy. Peace.

If you were patrolling anywhere with British Army from the Boer Wars to the present day - you had rules of engagement. You may have somehow chose to ignore or, not both read and hear them but they would have been there.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Wrong. Iraq had none till a few Tours in. We were told that specifically. You can look it up.

The more sensible of us used the ROE cards we knew from Bosnia as guidelines.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We're told the Army would protect us from any allegations because of it. By our CO and SSM.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"If my situation had gone bad. Should I as the naive young boy with the gun.. be held responsible, if I'm given direct orders to do something by a Senior Non Comissioned Officer? Or should they? Both of us? Or the person who gave him orders? The Prime Minister? All of you, who as a political 'democracy' sent us there?

The IRA for fighting the cause they believed in? The Iraqis fighting for theirs?

Where does it end? Where does it begin?

I took responsibility for my own actions. I'm me though."

I feel your pain. But one thing was continually impressed on me all the way through basic, that was:

Regardless of who gave me an order if I committed a crime while in uniform the Nuremberg would fail (just as it did for the Nazis) and it was my duty to obey the law and follow the rules of war. Therefore regardless of the consequences it was my duty to refuse to obey any unlawful orders given to me.

I will add that throughout my service I had the distinct displeasure of coming into contact with individuals who spent their time fighting and looking for opportunities to inflict the maximum damage on those weaker than themselves because they were 'trained killers', and many who professed to be looking for opportunities to shoot people. Now I know much of the latter was nothing more than bravado, but the problem with bravado is that it quickly turns into action when group mentality takes over. I would further point out that I never came across this bravado or attitude in those who received any sort of advanced teeth arms training. And to be clear learning how to be pushed out of a perfectly serviceable plane is not advanced teeth arms training, its nothing more than a high risk way to send a non return airmail of LI to a place that can't be reached by any other means.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The IRA for fighting the cause they believed in? The Iraqis fighting for theirs?

Where does it end? Where does it begin?

I took responsibility for my own actions. I'm me though.

I feel your pain. But one thing was continually impressed on me all the way through basic, that was:

I remember the odd lesson with the Padre in Basic.

To me the Armed Forces Chiefs are as gutless as the Civvies who command them. They want to make the boy with the gun the scapegoat. When the impossible position they put them in goes to Hell in a Handbasket.

I've seen the mob mentality you mention. I see it on here too. Ugly.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"I remember the odd lesson with the Padre in Basic.

I've seen the mob mentality you mention. I see it on here too. Ugly."

Yep, yep, yep and yep.

When things go wrong they quickly turn to shit, and when the shit hits the fan everyone gets a bit. The problem is that too many glory hunting junior (short service commission type) officers and vain glorious NCO's (the 18 year 'SP/RP' lance jack/full screw who loves beasting the poor sods on ROP's or locked up in the Guard Room) enjoy throwing shit into the fan to prove their worth.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I remember the odd lesson with the Padre in Basic.

I've seen the mob mentality you mention. I see it on here too. Ugly.

Yep, yep, yep and yep.

Yep yep yep

I used that as an example in toxic masculinity thread earlier this year. Very few understood what I was getting at.

Yet you look at the difference between the likes of the Parachute Regiment and the Regiment. The way in which they hold themselves and interact with others.

I only spent a little time in the Forces, but I saw a lot and spoke to many whilst in and since I've left.

I'm not SF, never was. Though I find myself more in tune to their way of operating, their manner in treating others.. much more akin to my own beliefs. Look after one another and use your own brain to make the best decision on the ground when it happens.. Shame my phys was so bad

Anyway, I think we're derailing the thread accidentally.

I don't like seeing soldiers prosecuted for things they've been ordered to do. Not when the Forces have Brainwashed their way of thinking and that all orders are to be followed. Encouraging the bully like NCOs you mentioned.

On the flip side.. If it's a clear case of individual culpability e.g. Marine A in Afghanistan. Then yeah.. tough shit mate, you let the side down. Mitigating circumstances granted, but you still fucked up big time.

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By *laytimenowMan over a year ago

Essex

"I remember the odd lesson with the Padre in Basic.

I've seen the mob mentality you mention. I see it on here too. Ugly.

Yep, yep, yep and yep.

Yep yep yep

I used that as an example in toxic masculinity thread earlier this year. Very few understood what I was getting at.

Yet you look at the difference between the likes of the Parachute Regiment and the Regiment. The way in which they hold themselves and interact with others.

I only spent a little time in the Forces, but I saw a lot and spoke to many whilst in and since I've left.

Anyway, I think we're derailing the thread accidentally.

To quote a line from the film 71 .

"The Army , Rich C*nts telling thick C*nts to kill Poor C*nts".

While im not trying to annoy any soldiers, the basic premise is

For the public schoolboy to get the farm hand to beat up the hungry peasants for knicking the spuds .

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I remember the odd lesson with the Padre in Basic.

I've seen the mob mentality you mention. I see it on here too. Ugly.

Yep, yep, yep and yep.

Yep yep yep

I used that as an example in toxic masculinity thread earlier this year. Very few understood what I was getting at.

Yet you look at the difference between the likes of the Parachute Regiment and the Regiment. The way in which they hold themselves and interact with others.

I only spent a little time in the Forces, but I saw a lot and spoke to many whilst in and since I've left.

Anyway, I think we're derailing the thread accidentally.

To quote a line from the film 71 .

"The Army , Rich C*nts telling thick C*nts to kill Poor C*nts".

While im not trying to annoy any soldiers, the basic premise is

For the public schoolboy to get the farm hand to beat up the hungry peasants for knicking the spuds ."

Yeah we get it

Works for Civvies too though.

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By *thwalescplCouple over a year ago

brecon

In 1972 there were 149 soldier or police deaths from terrorism, and 249 civilian deaths in NI, who will be charged for those?

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By *laytimenowMan over a year ago

Essex

"In 1972 there were 149 soldier or police deaths from terrorism, and 249 civilian deaths in NI, who will be charged for those?"

Read about Northern Ireland Riots 1969 & the fear amongst the Catholic population of Pogrom at the hands of the protestant population ,

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"In 1972 there were 149 soldier or police deaths from terrorism, and 249 civilian deaths in NI, who will be charged for those?"

There is a false equivalence built into your post.

The idea that because there were other crimes committed that no one has been held to account for (by the way, you do not know that all those crimes went unpunished in law) somehow mitigates murders committed by elements of 1 Para acting on the direct orders of their on the ground commanders who in turn received orders from area and district commanders both military and civilian is nothing more than the most corrupt of deflections.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them.

Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well.

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By *laytimenowMan over a year ago

Essex

"Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them.

Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well."

Surely trained warriors should realise that the orders given need to be questioned at the very least.

Imagine it was an F.a Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough & not a Civil rights march in Derry.

I still wouldnt blame tha basic squaddie to harshly but the military heirachy from the lowest officer to The head of political state should be held responsible & be liable for judicial sentencing .

Alive or dead.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them.

Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well."

Especially when they're asked to be both police AND soldiers at the same time.

Blame your politicians, who put us in those impossible positions. Who use us a scapegoats for their poor decision making. Which they get to practice at leisure and in luxury, whilst we have a split second and lives or deaths in the balance.

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

"Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them.

Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well.

Especially when they're asked to be both police AND soldiers at the same time.

Within 15mins of the ‘soldiers’ arriving on site they had started firing live rounds at unarmed civilians.. 108 shots fired by 28 ‘soldiers’ while innocent unarmed people ran and tried to hide..

Blame the politicians you say?? Bullshit I say.. blame and prosecute the ‘soldiers’ and COs

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By *ocketman99Man over a year ago

fermanagh

The good Friday agreement does not give immunity to the soldiers who slaughtered 14 innocent people!

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By *ocketman99Man over a year ago

fermanagh

Doing a job?? Getting away with murder?? The DPP have only one patsy for the killings of 14 people!

A 26 yr old man who had a mental age of 8 was shot twice by your peacekeeping paratroopers! Once in the back, then in the chest from a distance of 3 feet! That’s MURDER! Peace keeping or trying to keep law and order... rubbish! Behaved like Nazis that day! Those bullets fired from those guns started the war! Had it not been for Bloody Sunday a lot if people would be alive today!

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Surely trained warriors should realise that the orders given need to be questioned at the very least.

Imagine it was an F.a Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough & not a Civil rights march in Derry.

I still wouldnt blame tha basic squaddie to harshly but the military heirachy from the lowest officer to The head of political state should be held responsible & be liable for judicial sentencing .

Alive or dead."

You misunderstand.

Training is about developing 'muscle memory'. Muscle memory is the name given to training conditioned reflexes, conditioned reflexes take the brain and therefore decision making process out of the action reaction loop. As a result when correctly stimulated a trained warriors conditioning turns them into target destroyers where police are turned into non lethal target disruptors.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them.

Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well.

Especially when they're asked to be both police AND soldiers at the same time.

We also had the yellow card over there, clearly defined rules of engagement under the law of the land..

One of my tours was 5 years after this event, we were briefed in no uncertain terms what our personal responsibilities and duties were in relation to the use of lethal force..

There was on that day a lack of control by the chain of command at all levels but personal responsibility can't be ignored because of that and the ballistics don't lie..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them.

Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well.

Especially when they're asked to be both police AND soldiers at the same time.

We also had the yellow card over there, clearly defined rules of engagement under the law of the land..

One of my tours was 5 years after this event, we were briefed in no uncertain terms what our personal responsibilities and duties were in relation to the use of lethal force..

There was on that day a lack of control by the chain of command at all levels but personal responsibility can't be ignored because of that and the ballistics don't lie.. "

Spot on!

However, why only 1 soldier being hung out to dry?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them.

Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well.

Especially when they're asked to be both police AND soldiers at the same time.

We also had the yellow card over there, clearly defined rules of engagement under the law of the land..

One of my tours was 5 years after this event, we were briefed in no uncertain terms what our personal responsibilities and duties were in relation to the use of lethal force..

There was on that day a lack of control by the chain of command at all levels but personal responsibility can't be ignored because of that and the ballistics don't lie..

Spot on!

However, why only 1 soldier being hung out to dry?"

Not sure, looks more like a bodge or a token prosecution than actual justice..

Politically expedient perhaps given the current situation with the dup perhaps..

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

"Surely trained warriors should realise that the orders given need to be questioned at the very least.

Imagine it was an F.a Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough & not a Civil rights march in Derry.

I still wouldnt blame tha basic squaddie to harshly but the military heirachy from the lowest officer to The head of political state should be held responsible & be liable for judicial sentencing .

Alive or dead.

You misunderstand.

So just say that bundle of bullshit is true, how does innocent civilians running away become ‘targets that need to be destroyed’?

It’s murder, plain and simple..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Surely trained warriors should realise that the orders given need to be questioned at the very least.

Imagine it was an F.a Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough & not a Civil rights march in Derry.

I still wouldnt blame tha basic squaddie to harshly but the military heirachy from the lowest officer to The head of political state should be held responsible & be liable for judicial sentencing .

Alive or dead.

You misunderstand.

True.

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

"Surely trained warriors should realise that the orders given need to be questioned at the very least.

Imagine it was an F.a Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough & not a Civil rights march in Derry.

I still wouldnt blame tha basic squaddie to harshly but the military heirachy from the lowest officer to The head of political state should be held responsible & be liable for judicial sentencing .

Alive or dead.

You misunderstand.

True."

Excuses..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I've said my bit, I'm now leaving this conversation. I'm a very simple man, I don't want or wish conflict on anyone. I feel awful for the families who lost loved ones in all wars and conflicts. Feel for the dead.

If people are going to choose to only see one side of things and refuse to even acknowledge the positions our politicians put our very young, partially brainwashed servicemen and women in. Then the conversation is done as far as I'm concerned.

It takes two sides to have a war in the first place. The IRA and there more fundamentalist supporters haven't been exactly paragons of virtue either have they? Both sides behaved disgustingly.

What pisses me off more, is that there are many still in Northern Ireland and Ireland who simply refuse to move on. After all the lives that have been destroyed over it to date.

There can't be peace till whilst you still want a war.

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

Partially brainwashed is just another excuse, they made a decision to pull the trigger and shoot kids in the back that day.. How can these families move on when their loved ones are being told what the ‘soldiers’ did was right..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Partially brainwashed is just another excuse, they made a decision to pull the trigger and shoot kids in the back that day.. How can these families move on when their loved ones are being told what the ‘soldiers’ did was right.."
Maybe you should direct your anger at the organisers of the march which was illegal.

It can be confidently said that not one soldier would have got up on the morning in question with the intention of killing someone.

The soldiers concerned were in a hostile environment and were there simply to keep the peace.

When things go wrong you have a split second to react.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If the soldiers were there to keep the peace, why did they open fire on unarmed people.

Are you suggesting the army should be allowed to shoot and kill the population without consequence?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Angry crowds of hostile people are very scary places to be.You cannot see where the danger may come from. Mob mentality takes over on both sides. It's extremely intense.

Sending Paras of all Regiments... into that environment was a bad idea to begin with. They were hyped up and there was an agenda at play by the Government at the time that I believe told the Paras to show no mercy and be rough with the crowd. to end the rally as quickly as possible.

A situation like that is chaotic enough to spook one soldier into opening fire. Seen it happen in training, we spooked an infantry guy so bad he fired his rifle as a warming shot. Which is a big no no. Because it sets off the others.. all of whom are on tenderhooks. Expecting fire bombs, bottles, gunshots, missiles etc. One bang and that's it, training kicks in and people follow orders and trust in command as they don't know full facts.

That's what can happen in any demonstration, look at the g20 rallies and such. Kettering, teargas, water cannons, rubber bullets.. the Paras didn't have any of that. They probably stormed in kicking the fuck out of everyone like they were told.. some fight back in self defence.. things escalate, someone panics in heat of the moment.. bang. Whole troop open fire in response.

If they were ordered to kill then that's different, premeditated. Charge the soldier that did it. Charge the people who gave it.

I don't think any of us, bar those involved know the truth of things, which is why I'm grey, not black and white about 'War Crimes' It depends on so many factors.

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

"Angry crowds of hostile people are very scary places to be.You cannot see where the danger may come from. Mob mentality takes over on both sides. It's extremely intense.

If they were ordered to kill then that's different, premeditated. Charge the soldier that did it. Charge the people who gave it.

I don't think any of us, bar those involved know the truth of things, which is why I'm grey, not black and white about 'War Crimes' It depends on so many factors."

108 ‘warning shots’ from 28 ‘soldiers’ into the backs of kids.. just more excuses

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

takes a split second

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

Kevin McElhinney 17

Shot in the back as he tried to crawl to safety..

That’s MURDER

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

James Wray 22

Shot twice, the second fatal one as he lay on the ground..

That’s MURDER

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Kevin McElhinney 17

Shot in the back as he tried to crawl to safety..

That’s MURDER"

Is it that black and white. Is it not manslaughter in some of the examples and mitigating scenarios I've mentioned?

If not. Then we're at an impasse, because I wasn't there and I'm not privacy to all the facts.

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

"Kevin McElhinney 17

Shot in the back as he tried to crawl to safety..

That’s MURDER

Is it that black and white. Is it not manslaughter in some of the examples and mitigating scenarios I've mentioned?

If not. Then we're at an impasse, because I wasn't there and I'm not privacy to all the facts."

How about Bernard McGuigan 41

Shot in the head as he waved a white handkerchief trying to help the injured

That’s MURDER

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

How in the name of human rights any of these mentioned anything else only murder, and them ARE the facts..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"How in the name of human rights any of these mentioned anything else only murder, and them ARE the facts.."

Because they are supposed to apply to everyone.

We're clearly done here.

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

"How in the name of human rights any of these mentioned anything else only murder, and them ARE the facts..

Because they are supposed to apply to everyone.

We're clearly done here."

Gerard Donaghy 17

Shot in the stomach, died when the car that he was being brought to hospital was stopped by ‘soldiers’ and the driver put out

That’s MURDER

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By *heislanderMan over a year ago

cheshunt

"Partially brainwashed is just another excuse, they made a decision to pull the trigger and shoot kids in the back that day.. How can these families move on when their loved ones are being told what the ‘soldiers’ did was right.. Maybe you should direct your anger at the organisers of the march which was illegal.

It can be confidently said that not one soldier would have got up on the morning in question with the intention of killing someone.

The soldiers concerned were in a hostile environment and were there simply to keep the peace.

When things go wrong you have a split second to react. "

“ It can be confidently said“ by who- the soldiers.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"How in the name of human rights any of these mentioned anything else only murder, and them ARE the facts.."
As you were not at the event ( or even alive then ).you are hardly in a position to state that the death of.the people to whom you refer are facts. It is simply a statement as to how you would like to present events , not what actually happened.

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

"How in the name of human rights any of these mentioned anything else only murder, and them ARE the facts.. As you were not at the event ( or even alive then ).you are hardly in a position to state that the death of.the people to whom you refer are facts. It is simply a statement as to how you would like to present events , not what actually happened. "

These are actually the findings from the inquiry.. Although I’m guessing that won’t suit you..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

I don't think any of us, bar those involved know the truth of things, which is why I'm grey, not black and white about 'War Crimes' It depends on so many factors."

War crimes?

That's an oxymoron.

I do not recall the British Parliament declaring war on British citizens.

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By *ab_SparklesWoman over a year ago

sparkle Surprised

I doubt i was even born then ot at least under 2, so I can't comment or begin to fully understand.

What gets me is people same age or younger seems to have the answer, sorry but they don't all they have heard is newspapers and infor passed down.

The only ones that know what happened are those their on a very tragic time one that I'm not condoning at all..

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

"I doubt i was even born then ot at least under 2, so I can't comment or begin to fully understand.

What gets me is people same age or younger seems to have the answer, sorry but they don't all they have heard is newspapers and infor passed down.

The only ones that know what happened are those their on a very tragic time one that I'm not condoning at all.. "

And the inquest..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too "
If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

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By *lay2018Couple over a year ago

westmeath & roscommon.

Forget about the troubles and the IRA. Treat this as its own issue.

This was the British army that have the rules of law to follow. You can't go on a killing spree and kill innocent people like this then cover it up. It just goes against everything we strive not to be. The soliders committed cold blooded murder that day and should be in jail. You can't try and justify these killings what the IRA did in the following years. This was one of the reasons why people joined the IRA in the first place.

On another note, this shouldn't be discussed on a swing site. It's a very emotional issue for some and this issue can cause great anger between members on here.

We're here to meet like minded people, not argue over politics!

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

I’ll say it once again, it was 108 shots by 28 ‘soldiers’ into people backs and they tried to get away, has similarities to the NZ attack..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

It sure was an unholy mess which I can only try and formulate an opinion from what I can read up online but what I do struggle with is the notion of it being a peaceful civil rights march yet Gerald Donaghey had 4 nail bombs along with the rioting, rock throwing.

Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me.

Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Stop listening to british media it was a peaceful march

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me.

Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. "

If you do a little bit more reading you’ll find he had nothing on him when the medics were treating him including the army medic, but low and behold they appeared when the ‘soldiers’ started taking photos..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Stop listening to british media it was a peaceful march "
. As missiles were thrown at members of the organisations trying to uphold law and order you can hardly claim that it was a peaceful march. In addition it was an illegal one buy the organisers decided to go ahead anyway.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Stop listening to british media it was a peaceful march . As missiles were thrown at members of the organisations trying to uphold law and order you can hardly claim that it was a peaceful march. In addition it was an illegal one buy the organisers decided to go ahead anyway. "

If you watch footage of the march the murdering british army were firing on innocent ppl before any missiles were thrown,id jail every one of the murderers

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Stop listening to british media it was a peaceful march "

It may have been to start with but footage of that day I've viewed online showed different.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me.

Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated.

I've read the Saville report.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ah is that the report that is now being brought into question?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Ah is that the report that is now being brought into question?"

No idea

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”.

Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back?

British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”?

What sort of fucking state do you think we live in?

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"Ah is that the report that is now being brought into question?"

The only thing that's being brought into question in relation to the Saville report is how the soldiers thought they could lie under oath all the way through it and not be caught out by ballistics reports and newsreel footage.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”.

Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back?

British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”?

What sort of fucking state do you think we live in?"

Easily said by someone without the experience of the day.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me.

Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. "

There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”.

Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back?

British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”?

What sort of fucking state do you think we live in?

Easily said by someone without the experience of the day. "

There was nothing on the day to necessitate the use of lead bullets.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me.

Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated.

There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people. "

Maybe so, maybe not, the Saville report said there was, I wasn't alive when this happened so I can't say for sure either way but many also not born when this occurred in 72 seem to know all the facts.

Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury?

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me.

Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated.

There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people.

Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury? "

There's no maybe about it. The nail bombs were proven to have been a fabrication. You just choose not to believe incontrovertible evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative.

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”.

Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back?

British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”?

What sort of fucking state do you think we live in?"

The thing is they wouldn’t have shot at British civilians, these were Irish citizens.. Maybe that’s why so many comments here are justifying shooting young people in the back..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me.

Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated.

There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people.

Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury?

There's no maybe about it. The nail bombs were proven to have been a fabrication. You just choose not to believe incontrovertible evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative. "

What narrative is that then, upholding and believing in our justice system of innocent until proven guilty? yep I agree that is my view but I'll leave you to tell me what I think so I know for sure from someone far more knowledgeable than me.

I didn't know the nail bomb aspect had gone before a judge & jury to be proven as a fabrication, I can't find it online, unless we're talking Judge Rinder maybe?

The Troubles has left so many dead without any justice at all, in my view if we're going to reopen old wounds such as this then fine but we also need a full root & branches investigation from top to bottom for all the killings throughout that time and round up all terrorists that were released as part of bringing peace so they can finish off their prison terms.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"There was nothing on the day to necessitate the use of lead bullets."

Sorry, you are wrong there...

There was a Para Officer in his Para smock crouching down using his swagger stick to wave his men forward with the cry of "Go on! Up the Para's!".

And don't take what I say as any sort of support for what happened. He, his officers and his men were a disgrace, and the cover-up that followed was even more disgraceful. But whenever soldiers are used as police things like this happen.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me.

Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated.

There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people.

Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury?

There's no maybe about it. The nail bombs were proven to have been a fabrication. You just choose not to believe incontrovertible evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative.

I didn't know the nail bomb aspect had gone before a judge & jury to be proven as a fabrication, I can't find it online, unless we're talking Judge Rinder maybe?

The only people who object to a truth recovery mechanism is your own government. Instead they put forward the lie that the military were only responsible for 9% of the deaths. The reality is that the military were using what Kitson called "counter gangs" and the FRU to kill people with the appearance of plausible deniability. The most prolific of the loyalist death squads were getting their training, weapons and intelligence from the military.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me.

Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated.

There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people.

Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury?

There's no maybe about it. The nail bombs were proven to have been a fabrication. You just choose not to believe incontrovertible evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative.

I didn't know the nail bomb aspect had gone before a judge & jury to be proven as a fabrication, I can't find it online, unless we're talking Judge Rinder maybe?

May I just point out that you don't even hold up the "innocent until proven guilty" thing for the people who were proven to be innocent by the Saville enquiry and accepted as so by your own government who apologised for the killings and the cover up years ago.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"There was nothing on the day to necessitate the use of lead bullets.

Sorry, you are wrong there...

There was a Para Officer in his Para smock crouching down using his swagger stick to wave his men forward with the cry of "Go on! Up the Para's!".

Pretty sure I read that one of the Slr's that was wanted by the inquiry think the Saville one was not available as it had been destroyed but it later turned up when the west side boys in Sierra Leone took the 5 squaddies hostage and the paras were sent in..

Seems it was being used against them, strange ironybut a bit suss..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”.

Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back?

British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”?

What sort of fucking state do you think we live in?"
If you were under attack it is unlikely you would take such a view. In these situations you can be dead within a few seconds unless you take decisive action .

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me.

Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated.

There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people.

Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury?

There's no maybe about it. The nail bombs were proven to have been a fabrication. You just choose not to believe incontrovertible evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative.

I didn't know the nail bomb aspect had gone before a judge & jury to be proven as a fabrication, I can't find it online, unless we're talking Judge Rinder maybe?

As for bloody Sunday itself, all you need to see is the video footage from the day. If you think that shooting people is a reasonable response to people throwing a few stones then I hope you never find yourself in a crowd control situation. "
It is difficult to see how video footage would help. Only some of the events will have been recorded.

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By *irkydirkyMan over a year ago

Stevenage

"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless.

If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions .

The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take .

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me.

Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated.

There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people.

Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury?

There's no maybe about it. The nail bombs were proven to have been a fabrication. You just choose not to believe incontrovertible evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative.

I didn't know the nail bomb aspect had gone before a judge & jury to be proven as a fabrication, I can't find it online, unless we're talking Judge Rinder maybe?

As for bloody Sunday itself, all you need to see is the video footage from the day. If you think that shooting people is a reasonable response to people throwing a few stones then I hope you never find yourself in a crowd control situation. It is difficult to see how video footage would help. Only some of the events will have been recorded. "

So let me ask you this, are you condoning the shooting in the back of these unarmed civilians on this day? Just a yes/no answer is required, it’s that straight forward.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”.

Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back?

British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”?

What sort of fucking state do you think we live in? If you were under attack it is unlikely you would take such a view. In these situations you can be dead within a few seconds unless you take decisive action . "

They weren't under attack. A few teenagers threw stones at them. There is no situation in which killing people would be deemed as reasonable force in reaction to stone throwing.

A member of the OIRA is presumed to have fired a shot but not in the vicinity of the paras but nothing was ever found apart from a damaged drainpipe on a Presbyterian church some distance away from where the killings took place. Another member of the OIRA was seen emerging from a nearby block of flats with a weapon after the killings had taken place but left without firing when he was told to fuck off by a priest.

This was not reasonable force. Even David Cameron told the world it was indefensible.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”.

Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back?

British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”?

They weren't under attack. A few teenagers threw stones at them. There is no situation in which killing people would be deemed as reasonable force in reaction to stone throwing.

This was not reasonable force. Even David Cameron told the world it was indefensible.

OK, your most probably correct but the crux of my argument is by reopening "this" case do you think the whole lot of The Troubles killings should be reopened & all prisoners released early as part of the Good Friday Agreement should be made to finish their prison sentences for murdering men women & children ?

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By *laytimenowMan over a year ago

Essex

Surely the point should be that for all the murders commited by armed forces in the 6 counties

Only i think 1 was ever found guilty , he was releasss & sentences quaushed after 6 months.

Whil on the other hand

Bobby Sands was sentenced to jail for being in a car with 3 others

with a hand gun in the car under 1 of the seats.

While under interogation

He had his testicles mangled by a rather large pair of bolt cutters

Also had a steel bar shoved up his back passage which ruptured his colon.

Not once did he plead guilty to any charge in the diplock courts , yet spent in his last days in long kesh.

If the same methods of torture can be ussd fairly on 1 group of suspects , is it fair to say we use them on her majestys security & police forces ?

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned

No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”.

Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back?

British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”?

They weren't under attack. A few teenagers threw stones at them. There is no situation in which killing people would be deemed as reasonable force in reaction to stone throwing.

This was not reasonable force. Even David Cameron told the world it was indefensible.

It's not reopening the case. It's never been a case at all in the past.

Soldier F will never be convicted, despite his lies to both Widgery and Saville, despite him being on video shooting a man in the back of the head, despite the ballistics evidence that ties him to four deaths, all of innocent civilians, at least one of whom was running away and one of whom was the man caught on camera attempting to give medical assistance to his first victim while holding up a white handkerchief. These were Irish people, from an Irish nationalist background who were complaining about how they were being treated unfairly by the authorities and so they were "troublemakers" and so were fair game. General Ford, commander of land forces in the north said that day that this was "the best thing he had seen for quite some time" despite being told by other soldiers in Derry that it was innocent civilians who were killed. He was reported by an officer as having said "yes, this is one of the best things I've seen for some time".

Even if he is convicted and sentenced to life he will serve a maximum of 2 years.

Just remember that the British government have stood in the way of a truth recovery mechanism which is what is needed.

It's worth remembering also that 15,000

republican prisoners have served just over 100,000 combined years in jail. Four British soldiers were convicted of murder in Ireland, one was acquitted on appeal, and they served five years each, were released and then readmitted into the British army. No other NATO member allows convicted murderers to serve in their military. It turns out that murdering Irish people must not be that big a deal.