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The age of colonialism is over
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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We had an interesting discussion about it in my spain want gibraltar thread so thought I would make a new one about it. I reckon it is over and all territories should be handed over, whats your view? |
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I'll repeat...
No it is not, colonialism is as old as history. All that changes are the colonists and their empire.
First we had the Ethiopians, then the Mesopotamia and Persians. We moved on to the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Carthage. Followed by Mogul Empire, through the Venetians and the European Empires to the rising US and Russian Empires of today. With the Chinese Empire a constant in the background.
The only thing that is changing is that China is expanding its sphere of influence to Africa and doing it by way of cooperation and help rather than conquest and subjugation.
By the way, China is winning todays colonial war! |
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"
The only thing that is changing is that China is expanding its sphere of influence to Africa and doing it by way of cooperation and help rather than conquest and subjugation.
By the way, China is winning todays colonial war! "
China winning at the moment? OK I'll go with you on that bit.
However co-operation and help? Yeah right.
Co-operation and help to despot dictators maybe, but not to your average African.
Just ask any Zimbabwean, well any that isn't a Zanu PF lackey with his/her nose in the Chinese diamond trough. |
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"China winning at the moment? OK I'll go with you on that bit.
However co-operation and help? Yeah right.
Co-operation and help to despot dictators maybe, but not to your average African.
Just ask any Zimbabwean, well any that isn't a Zanu PF lackey with his/her nose in the Chinese diamond trough."
China is investing in infrastructure, education and agriculture all over Africa. Wherever the Chinese are in Africa the improvements are astounding and the Chinese are turning up everywhere! Now you are right in what you say about how they are there for raw materials and that they started in the countries shunned by the West. But you really need to look at what they are actually doing rather than how our governments portray the governments of the countries they are in, and then you need to compare and contrast that to what the West does in the countries where we hold sway. We take without investing anything more than the minimum, that is exploitation. China is building a worldwide transport infrastructure wheel with China at the hub. Where the Chinese go they bring mettled roads, electricity, irrigation, education and health. Theirs is a 'hearts and minds' offensive that works through improving the lives of people while not interfering in internal politics. It is working! It is working well! And we have no answer to it because all our leaders are corporate puppets and all corporations deal in is maximising the quarterly bottom line. |
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"China winning at the moment? OK I'll go with you on that bit.
However co-operation and help? Yeah right.
Co-operation and help to despot dictators maybe, but not to your average African.
Just ask any Zimbabwean, well any that isn't a Zanu PF lackey with his/her nose in the Chinese diamond trough.
China is investing in infrastructure, education and agriculture all over Africa. Wherever the Chinese are in Africa the improvements are astounding and the Chinese are turning up everywhere! Now you are right in what you say about how they are there for raw materials and that they started in the countries shunned by the West. But you really need to look at what they are actually doing rather than how our governments portray the governments of the countries they are in, and then you need to compare and contrast that to what the West does in the countries where we hold sway. We take without investing anything more than the minimum, that is exploitation. China is building a worldwide transport infrastructure wheel with China at the hub. Where the Chinese go they bring mettled roads, electricity, irrigation, education and health. Theirs is a 'hearts and minds' offensive that works through improving the lives of people while not interfering in internal politics. It is working! It is working well! And we have no answer to it because all our leaders are corporate puppets and all corporations deal in is maximising the quarterly bottom line."
Sorry Will. I know that it is second nature for you to defend anything (supposedly) left of centre and blame all the worlds ills on the nasty capitalists, but on this one you are way out.
Electricity, education, roads, health?
In Zimbabwe they would be glad of a loaf of bread.
Meanwhile the Chinese are hoovering up industrial diamonds from the country like there is no tomorrow.
They supported Mugabe for decades and now it's his old henchman Mnangagwa, or the Crocodile as he is more commonly known.
But of course China is (allegedly) Communist as is Zanu PF so you can't be seen to criticise the comrades eh!
Let's just blame it on the nasty capitalists instead. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"China winning at the moment? OK I'll go with you on that bit.
However co-operation and help? Yeah right.
Co-operation and help to despot dictators maybe, but not to your average African.
Just ask any Zimbabwean, well any that isn't a Zanu PF lackey with his/her nose in the Chinese diamond trough.
China is investing in infrastructure, education and agriculture all over Africa. Wherever the Chinese are in Africa the improvements are astounding and the Chinese are turning up everywhere! Now you are right in what you say about how they are there for raw materials and that they started in the countries shunned by the West. But you really need to look at what they are actually doing rather than how our governments portray the governments of the countries they are in, and then you need to compare and contrast that to what the West does in the countries where we hold sway. We take without investing anything more than the minimum, that is exploitation. China is building a worldwide transport infrastructure wheel with China at the hub. Where the Chinese go they bring mettled roads, electricity, irrigation, education and health. Theirs is a 'hearts and minds' offensive that works through improving the lives of people while not interfering in internal politics. It is working! It is working well! And we have no answer to it because all our leaders are corporate puppets and all corporations deal in is maximising the quarterly bottom line.
Sorry Will. I know that it is second nature for you to defend anything (supposedly) left of centre and blame all the worlds ills on the nasty capitalists, but on this one you are way out.
Electricity, education, roads, health?
In Zimbabwe they would be glad of a loaf of bread.
Meanwhile the Chinese are hoovering up industrial diamonds from the country like there is no tomorrow.
They supported Mugabe for decades and now it's his old henchman Mnangagwa, or the Crocodile as he is more commonly known.
But of course China is (allegedly) Communist as is Zanu PF so you can't be seen to criticise the comrades eh!
Let's just blame it on the nasty capitalists instead."
.
Haven't you heard about the success of Namibia?. It's populated by tens of thousands of Chinese, the Chinese companies win all the government contracts, Chinese shops lurk on every street corner and the Namibians are really happy... Not, or to quote one local, I wish the bloody foreigners would piss off back to China, they've ruined the countryside and dominate work in government contracts!.
Bloody Namibian black supremacists why can't they just get with 21st century neo liberalism  |
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"I'll repeat...
No it is not, colonialism is as old as history. All that changes are the colonists and their empire.
First we had the Ethiopians, then the Mesopotamia and Persians. We moved on to the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Carthage. Followed by Mogul Empire, through the Venetians and the European Empires to the rising US and Russian Empires of today. With the Chinese Empire a constant in the background.
The only thing that is changing is that China is expanding its sphere of influence to Africa and doing it by way of cooperation and help rather than conquest and subjugation.
By the way, China is winning todays colonial war! "
If you think the Ethiopians were 1st , your Historical view is a warped one. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I'll repeat...
No it is not, colonialism is as old as history. All that changes are the colonists and their empire.
First we had the Ethiopians, then the Mesopotamia and Persians. We moved on to the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Carthage. Followed by Mogul Empire, through the Venetians and the European Empires to the rising US and Russian Empires of today. With the Chinese Empire a constant in the background.
The only thing that is changing is that China is expanding its sphere of influence to Africa and doing it by way of cooperation and help rather than conquest and subjugation.
By the way, China is winning todays colonial war!
If you think the Ethiopians were 1st , your Historical view is a warped one."
Homosapiens colonisation of Neanderthal lands.??  |
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"If you think the Ethiopians were 1st , your Historical view is a warped one.
Really?
Google 'the oldest known building in the world...
Its from 7000BC!"
Why would i google something that is in your statement incorrect.
The original Wall in Jericho is dated as far back as 8000 years & Göbekli Tepe in Turkey is also 9000+ years ago. |
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"If you think the Ethiopians were 1st , your Historical view is a warped one.
Really?
Google 'the oldest known building in the world...
Its from 7000BC!
Why would i google something that is in your statement incorrect.
The original Wall in Jericho is dated as far back as 8000 years & Göbekli Tepe in Turkey is also 9000+ years ago."
9000 BC that is . |
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"I agree with a post earlier in the spanish thread that a country that is close to the mainland should belong to them not the other."
So 90 odd percent of the Gibraltar population should be ignored, disregarded, and told to suck it up?
Ditto the Falklands. |
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"I'll repeat...
No it is not, colonialism is as old as history. All that changes are the colonists and their empire.
First we had the Ethiopians, then the Mesopotamia and Persians. We moved on to the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Carthage. Followed by Mogul Empire, through the Venetians and the European Empires to the rising US and Russian Empires of today. With the Chinese Empire a constant in the background.
The only thing that is changing is that China is expanding its sphere of influence to Africa and doing it by way of cooperation and help rather than conquest and subjugation.
By the way, China is winning todays colonial war!
If you think the Ethiopians were 1st , your Historical view is a warped one."
Not forgetting that it was Rome who wiped out Carthage, so the chronology is wrong as well. |
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"China winning at the moment? OK I'll go with you on that bit.
However co-operation and help? Yeah right.
Co-operation and help to despot dictators maybe, but not to your average African.
Just ask any Zimbabwean, well any that isn't a Zanu PF lackey with his/her nose in the Chinese diamond trough.
China is investing in infrastructure, education and agriculture all over Africa. Wherever the Chinese are in Africa the improvements are astounding and the Chinese are turning up everywhere! Now you are right in what you say about how they are there for raw materials and that they started in the countries shunned by the West. But you really need to look at what they are actually doing rather than how our governments portray the governments of the countries they are in, and then you need to compare and contrast that to what the West does in the countries where we hold sway. We take without investing anything more than the minimum, that is exploitation. China is building a worldwide transport infrastructure wheel with China at the hub. Where the Chinese go they bring mettled roads, electricity, irrigation, education and health. Theirs is a 'hearts and minds' offensive that works through improving the lives of people while not interfering in internal politics. It is working! It is working well! And we have no answer to it because all our leaders are corporate puppets and all corporations deal in is maximising the quarterly bottom line.
Sorry Will. I know that it is second nature for you to defend anything (supposedly) left of centre and blame all the worlds ills on the nasty capitalists, but on this one you are way out.
Electricity, education, roads, health?
In Zimbabwe they would be glad of a loaf of bread.
Meanwhile the Chinese are hoovering up industrial diamonds from the country like there is no tomorrow.
They supported Mugabe for decades and now it's his old henchman Mnangagwa, or the Crocodile as he is more commonly known.
But of course China is (allegedly) Communist as is Zanu PF so you can't be seen to criticise the comrades eh!
Let's just blame it on the nasty capitalists instead..
Haven't you heard about the success of Namibia?. It's populated by tens of thousands of Chinese, the Chinese companies win all the government contracts, Chinese shops lurk on every street corner and the Namibians are really happy... Not, or to quote one local, I wish the bloody foreigners would piss off back to China, they've ruined the countryside and dominate work in government contracts!.
Bloody Namibian black supremacists why can't they just get with 21st century neo liberalism "
So Namibia has a government that looks after its people.
Do you think that if it had a despot dictator like Zimbabwe the Chinese would treat it differently?
That is good fortune, not design. The Chinese don't give a flying fuck about anyone as long they get what THEY want. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I agree with a post earlier in the spanish thread that a country that is close to the mainland should belong to them not the other.
So 90 odd percent of the Gibraltar population should be ignored, disregarded, and told to suck it up?
Ditto the Falklands."
No, they would need to somehow settle the differences democratically, kind a similar to brexit, half want to be in the eu. |
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"I agree with a post earlier in the spanish thread that a country that is close to the mainland should belong to them not the other.
So 90 odd percent of the Gibraltar population should be ignored, disregarded, and told to suck it up?
Ditto the Falklands.No, they would need to somehow settle the differences democratically, kind a similar to brexit, half want to be in the eu."
They have settled it democratically.
Last time they had a vote 90 odd percent told Spain to fuck off.
Or do you want them to keep having referendum after referendum until (as is the EU way) they get the "right" answer? |
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"I agree with a post earlier in the spanish thread that a country that is close to the mainland should belong to them not the other.
So 90 odd percent of the Gibraltar population should be ignored, disregarded, and told to suck it up?
Ditto the Falklands.No, they would need to somehow settle the differences democratically, kind a similar to brexit, half want to be in the eu.
They have settled it democratically.
Last time they had a vote 90 odd percent told Spain to fuck off.
Or do you want them to keep having referendum after referendum until (as is the EU way) they get the "right" answer?"
Surely the Spainish Should be allowed to vote in a referendum regarding Gibraltar.
Think it might make a Slight difference in any result.
|
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"I don't see the point in Spain controlling Gib, I expect they'd just rent it out to the Americans. "
Bit like what going to happen to the UK once it leaves the EU you mean ?
I see your thinking on this. |
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"Not forgetting that it was Rome who wiped out Carthage, so the chronology is wrong as well. "
That would be the first and second Punic wars. Fact is Rome and Carthage were the equivalent of the USA and Russia today. Both existed at the same time. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I'll repeat...
No it is not, colonialism is as old as history. All that changes are the colonists and their empire.
First we had the Ethiopians, then the Mesopotamia and Persians. We moved on to the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Carthage. Followed by Mogul Empire, through the Venetians and the European Empires to the rising US and Russian Empires of today. With the Chinese Empire a constant in the background.
The only thing that is changing is that China is expanding its sphere of influence to Africa and doing it by way of cooperation and help rather than conquest and subjugation.
By the way, China is winning todays colonial war!
If you think the Ethiopians were 1st , your Historical view is a warped one.
Homosapiens colonisation of Neanderthal lands.?? "
.
All Europeans have a percentage of Neanderthal in them while Africans have none, it was thought for a long time that red hair was a Neanderthal trait but it's since looking like that's not the case, in fact I think there's an Ethiopian tribe with red hair. |
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"I'll repeat...
No it is not, colonialism is as old as history. All that changes are the colonists and their empire.
First we had the Ethiopians, then the Mesopotamia and Persians. We moved on to the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Carthage. Followed by Mogul Empire, through the Venetians and the European Empires to the rising US and Russian Empires of today. With the Chinese Empire a constant in the background.
The only thing that is changing is that China is expanding its sphere of influence to Africa and doing it by way of cooperation and help rather than conquest and subjugation.
By the way, China is winning todays colonial war!
If you think the Ethiopians were 1st , your Historical view is a warped one.
Homosapiens colonisation of Neanderthal lands.?? .
All Europeans have a percentage of Neanderthal in them while Africans have none, it was thought for a long time that red hair was a Neanderthal trait but it's since looking like that's not the case, in fact I think there's an Ethiopian tribe with red hair."
Yes but they were still 2000 years later than the
Gobekli Tepe temple , so we can ot assume they were the 1st of anything. |
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"I agree with a post earlier in the spanish thread that a country that is close to the mainland should belong to them not the other.
So 90 odd percent of the Gibraltar population should be ignored, disregarded, and told to suck it up?
Ditto the Falklands.No, they would need to somehow settle the differences democratically, kind a similar to brexit, half want to be in the eu.
They have settled it democratically.
Last time they had a vote 90 odd percent told Spain to fuck off.
Or do you want them to keep having referendum after referendum until (as is the EU way) they get the "right" answer?
Surely the Spainish Should be allowed to vote in a referendum regarding Gibraltar.
Think it might make a Slight difference in any result.
"
Spain can only credibly discuss Gibraltar once they agree to leave Ceuta and Melilla - their two 'enclaves' in Morocco. |
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"I agree with a post earlier in the spanish thread that a country that is close to the mainland should belong to them not the other."
So how would that work for Ireland being close to the UK?
Or, BREXIT aside, Britain being close to Europe?
Or all of Europe being close to Russia?
Geographical closeness, while possibly a factor, cannot be the sole determinant of national sovereignty.
|
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"I'll repeat...
No it is not, colonialism is as old as history. All that changes are the colonists and their empire.
First we had the Ethiopians, then the Mesopotamia and Persians. We moved on to the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Carthage. Followed by Mogul Empire, through the Venetians and the European Empires to the rising US and Russian Empires of today. With the Chinese Empire a constant in the background.
The only thing that is changing is that China is expanding its sphere of influence to Africa and doing it by way of cooperation and help rather than conquest and subjugation.
By the way, China is winning todays colonial war!
If you think the Ethiopians were 1st , your Historical view is a warped one.
Homosapiens colonisation of Neanderthal lands.?? .
All Europeans have a percentage of Neanderthal in them while Africans have none, it was thought for a long time that red hair was a Neanderthal trait but it's since looking like that's not the case, in fact I think there's an Ethiopian tribe with red hair."
Red hair is also not uncommon in Egypt and Libya.
|
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"I agree with a post earlier in the spanish thread that a country that is close to the mainland should belong to them not the other.
So 90 odd percent of the Gibraltar population should be ignored, disregarded, and told to suck it up?
Ditto the Falklands.No, they would need to somehow settle the differences democratically, kind a similar to brexit, half want to be in the eu.
They have settled it democratically.
Last time they had a vote 90 odd percent told Spain to fuck off.
Or do you want them to keep having referendum after referendum until (as is the EU way) they get the "right" answer?
Surely the Spainish Should be allowed to vote in a referendum regarding Gibraltar.
Think it might make a Slight difference in any result.
"
So let the Moroccans have a vote on Ceuta and Melilla then. |
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