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Is brexit is a threat against democracy?

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

We have seen it in action as brexiters dont think it is democratic to change their mind as they wont get a good deal, they would rather drive through a wall then to turn left, whats your view?

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By *ostafunMan over a year ago

near ipswich

dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

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By *mmabluTV/TS over a year ago

upton wirral

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy. "

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy. "

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic. "

They think they won and they now are in control forever.Its a childlike reaction from brexiters.Democracy is progressive not static like these idiots think..

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

of course brexit is a threat to democracy. Any subject that so divides a democratic society that one side refuses to allow the society to revisit the subject when conditions change because they claim the society has no right to change its mind (regardless any subject) has to be a serious threat to that democratic society.

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By *oxychick35Couple over a year ago

thornaby

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

They think they won and they now are in control forever.Its a childlike reaction from brexiters.Democracy is progressive not static like these idiots think.."
bob take a leaf out of wills book mate not ever single post you put up as to have an insult in it ffs lol

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By *ostafunMan over a year ago

near ipswich

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

They think they won and they now are in control forever.Its a childlike reaction from brexiters.Democracy is progressive not static like these idiots think.."
no Bob we tried your way for the last 40 years and don't like it so time for a change.Nice to know you think 17.4 million people are idiots a very mature attitude.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

They think they won and they now are in control forever.Its a childlike reaction from brexiters.Democracy is progressive not static like these idiots think..no Bob we tried your way for the last 40 years and don't like it so time for a change.Nice to know you think 17.4 million people are idiots a very mature attitude. "

I think that 17.4 Million people fell for a pack of lies and didn't all vote for the same thing.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 14/01/19 09:12:52]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

You won ..stop moaning.. get over it .

Man up snowflakes you've got brexit in the bag unless the chumps chuck It away tommorow to the delight of everyone else with an ounce of intelligence.

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

Just think about that for a moment and think about how many diverse opinions there are of Brexit and how all of those different versions added together made up a melting pot of different visions.

People who wanted to stay in the CU and SM

People who saw a Norway/Switzerland kind of arrangement

People who wanted a unique and bespoke deal with EU

People who wanted Brexit just to “do something about immigration”

People who voted in protest at decades of feeling left behind

Racists (who all voted for Brexit)

Anarchists (who all voted for Brexit)

UKIP voters who had spent years worshipping their living God Nigel Farage and believed everything he said - without question.

Life-long Eurosceptics

And so on, and so on, and so on

If you had any doubt about this, just look at what is happening in Parliament. If all 17.4 million Brexit voters were the same - Mrs May’s deal would have sailed through Parliament back in December.

The entire argument about Brexit can never really be won by one set of Brexiters because not all Brexit visions are the same. Hence the inherent logic behind a 2nd Referendum.

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By *ostafunMan over a year ago

near ipswich

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

Just think about that for a moment and think about how many diverse opinions there are of Brexit and how all of those different versions added together made up a melting pot of different visions.

People who wanted to stay in the CU and SM

People who saw a Norway/Switzerland kind of arrangement

People who wanted a unique and bespoke deal with EU

People who wanted Brexit just to “do something about immigration”

People who voted in protest at decades of feeling left behind

Racists (who all voted for Brexit)

Anarchists (who all voted for Brexit)

UKIP voters who had spent years worshipping their living God Nigel Farage and believed everything he said - without question.

Life-long Eurosceptics

And so on, and so on, and so on

The entire argument about Brexit can never really be won by one set of Brexiters because not all Brexit visions are the same. Hence the inherent logic behind a 2nd Referendum.

"
The question was leave or stay,what is going on in parliament is mps putting their own spin on it to suit their personal beliefs dont be fooled in to thinking they are thinking of us.If they did it would have been a done deal ages ago and business would be growing instead of all this uncertainty.They are not representing the people.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Of course parliament should only reflect the views 17.4 million citizens the rest can go fuck themselves..

Im kind of thankful the brexiters fuhrer said...

17 May 2016 · "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way."

He was of course right ...

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By *anes HubbyCouple over a year ago

Babbacombe Torquay

I think that some are scared shitless at the thought of a second referendum but personally I'm not worried in the slightest, confidence is the order of the day.

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By *ostafunMan over a year ago

near ipswich

"I think that some are scared shitless at the thought of a second referendum but personally I'm not worried in the slightest, confidence is the order of the day."
I not sure about that, but its seems they can get the outcome they want by the questions on it which worries me a bit.Also the time it would take and i dont think you would get the turnout as most people are sick to death of it now.It will only be the diehard remainers and leavers who bother to vote.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Id much rather stay in Europe..im Norwegian... But have a uk passport.

It was in my opinion foolish to want to leave.. Based on falsehood.

But the vehicle was released and you have to trust the powers that be to guide it correctly.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The real risk to brexit is not the leavers. It’s their (especially the tories) who vote against Mays deal.

It’s funny that democracy and will of the people are said to be ignored when we’re looking at a binary option that May is delivering on.

But WTO is not the type of leave promised by the tories. We were promised a deep and special partnership including comprehensive free trade and custom agreements.

For a tory to vote against May is an affront to our democracy. Once you “break” that piece of democracy you allow others to follow your lead. Although maybe this should lead to a GE before a referendum...

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By *oxychick35Couple over a year ago

thornaby

"Of course parliament should only reflect the views 17.4 million citizens the rest can go fuck themselves..

Im kind of thankful the brexiters fuhrer said...

17 May 2016 · "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way."

He was of course right ...

"
if parliament should not reflect views of a majority vote what the hell is the point of democracy then and pls don’t say ppl may of chandmged there mind now that can be said about any vote

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" if parliament should not reflect views of a majority vote what the hell is the point of democracy "

When a referendum is held & the voting public is told by the Government that the result will be acted upon then yes, Parliament should / must accept what the Government negotiates & puts forward.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" if parliament should not reflect views of a majority vote what the hell is the point of democracy

When a referendum is held & the voting public is told by the Government that the result will be acted upon then yes, Parliament should / must accept what the Government negotiates & puts forward. "
Dont tell JRM et al this !

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" if parliament should not reflect views of a majority vote what the hell is the point of democracy

LOL

While I think it's going to damage the Country I also believe the Government should do what they promised otherwise there's no point in us being asked anything ever again.

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By *host63Man over a year ago

Bedfont Feltham

You.l is the saying you never know what you miss till it's not there anymore.

Referendum it or there are no winners in this we have all lost

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By *endrix30Man over a year ago

dudley

" if parliament should not reflect views of a majority vote what the hell is the point of democracy

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The real threat to democracy has to be the EU. Just look at how they treated Greece and how they are treating us. It’s like, how dare any of you minions attempt to leave? What started out as a trading block is more like a blood in blood out gang of nations, with Germany dictating like a gang boss.

We have now a responsibility to show the other seemingly trapped nations that it can be done, that if we can successfully break away, then so too can they.

I know it’s been a torturous couple of years, and none of this is going to be easy. The EU are being petulant and attempting to write all the rules. So we have to take the medicine, no deal is better than a bad deal, right? So let’s go, now!!!

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

Parliament is sovereign but has been hijacked to a large extent by the executive - Theresa May and ministers, without appropriate consultation with the rest of government as well as ignoring the foreign influence and other real and likely influences on the referendum result. That is not reasonably considered fair democracy but abuse of power and negligence of duty.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

[Removed by poster at 21/01/19 11:46:17]

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By *oxychick35Couple over a year ago

thornaby

"Parliament is sovereign but has been hijacked to a large extent by the executive - Theresa May and ministers, without appropriate consultation with the rest of government as well as ignoring the foreign influence and other real and likely influences on the referendum result. That is not reasonably considered fair democracy but abuse of power and negligence of duty.

Article 50 should not have been triggered by the conservatives and should be withdrawn, pending complete investigation. Democracy is an ongoing process and not static and intelligence gathering provides a more informed population and government - anyone against continuous democracy is an enemy of the people and state. "
so if we have another referendum and it was remain would you be for continuous referendums or would that be an enemy of the ppl and state ?

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

Article 50 should not have been triggered by the conservatives and should be withdrawn, pending complete investigation. Democracy is an ongoing process and not static and intelligence gathering provides a more informed population and government - anyone against continuous democracy is an enemy of the people and state. so if we have another referendum and it was remain would you be for continuous referendums or would that be an enemy of the ppl and state ?"

I think it's important to accept that democracy is continuous and not static. The specifics of how the democratic process is enabled are subject to UK sovereignty to define and uphold, as representatives of the people. We don't hold general elections more than every few years, unless government collapses etc and the concept of implementing referenda to facilitate democracy, is also their remit and I'm open to, within bounds. I think that with just a few days left of Article 50, parliament should revoke it, due to insufficient time to renegotiate or implementation of new laws etc.

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By *tace 309TV/TS over a year ago

durham

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy. "
exactly

The remoaners think they know best

The way some have behaved has been v juvenile

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"The real threat to democracy has to be the EU. Just look at how they treated Greece and how they are treating us. It’s like, how dare any of you minions attempt to leave? What started out as a trading block is more like a blood in blood out gang of nations, with Germany dictating like a gang boss.

We have now a responsibility to show the other seemingly trapped nations that it can be done, that if we can successfully break away, then so too can they.

And I bet you actually believe everything that you have written don’t you? At first I thought that you were just an internet troll looking to wind people up but you are very consistent in writing stuff that is way off the mark, but consistently enough so that it has to more deep rooted than trolling.

I have asked others and they were unable to respond - perhaps you can.

1) When you leave a rules based organisation where you previously had a voice in creating those rules, how can you possibly determine that no longer being able to play by those rules is a form of being wronged? Do you just associate the childlike concept of not getting your own way as being wronged?

2) Assuming what you have written above to be correct - which it isn’t, but I will humour you.... If the U.K. is so powerful and so fearless, how is it that in a union of just 28 nations we allowed Germany to be the defacto ruler of that Organisation? Surely if we are about to strike out successfully in the wild and uncharted world again it should have been relatively easy for us to dominate a union of 28 friendly nations. How did we let Germany rule?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy. exactly

The remoaners think they know best

The way some have behaved has been v juvenile "

Classic leaver.

1. Use insults

2. Complain that remainders have behaved like a juvenile

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Article 50 should not have been triggered by the conservatives and should be withdrawn, pending complete investigation. Democracy is an ongoing process and not static and intelligence gathering provides a more informed population and government - anyone against continuous democracy is an enemy of the people and state. so if we have another referendum and it was remain would you be for continuous referendums or would that be an enemy of the ppl and state ?"

There shouldn’t have been a referendum, and there shouldn’t be another one. It was a vote winning ploy by the Tories who see this all as a game. They will continue to be rich and powerful regardless, while we suffer under the storm of bullshit that is Brexit.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Your last sentence says it all really “an enemy of the people and the state.” I’m no enemy of the people, but have been an enemy of the state for decades. The state have been fucking the people up the arse since it’s inception. It is not here to protect us, but to control us. In this instance they have been working very hard to convince us that we should never have voted leave, and that BREXIT is a mistake. They don’t want to honour the referendum, they want to make us change our minds. Fuck the state!

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

Anti-establishment rather than anti-EU, per se.

How will Brexit Britain be any different from EU Britain.

The people who have been fucking you over will still be fucking you over. The only difference being you won’t have the social chapter to protect you.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But voting leave is a vote to remove the EU as a layer of protection against the state. Once were out the the EU the Shackles are off and they’re free to properly fuck the people like never before.

Surely if you are an enemy of the state you would have voted remain.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Anti-establishment rather than anti-EU, per se.

How will Brexit Britain be any different from EU Britain.

The people who have been fucking you over will still be fucking you over. The only difference being you won’t have the social chapter to protect you.

Sorry yes this is a more eloquent explanation form you, as always.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Yes it is a very real threat to democracy. That why I voted remain but think the result of the vote should be upheld. If it is a clusterfuck as much as everyone suspects then the ones that voted for it can do the most to clear this load of bollocks up. We'll just have to rejoin wont we ? at much more punitive terms than our much maligned tory leaders have managed to scrape off the bottom of the EU's shoe.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy. exactly

"
No it is not, it is the brexiters starting the blame game cos their fantasy wont go through lol.

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By *ollie1Couple over a year ago

murcia spain

can not understand why its undemocratic to change ones mind

I think those who say so are afraid of the result

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I may be wrong, but I think the ECOHR allows the people to hold the state accountable (eg sue the state). If this is correct, I’m assuming we’re losing that right now.

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By *oi_LucyCouple over a year ago

Barbados

"I may be wrong, but I think the ECOHR allows the people to hold the state accountable (eg sue the state). If this is correct, I’m assuming we’re losing that right now.

Isn’t that what David Davies was doing with regards to May’s “Snoopers Charter”... up until the point she made him Brexit negotiator and errr... well that got a bit awkward.

-Matt

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

The ECHR is completely separate from the EU.

It was drawn up by the UK in the 1950s. The articles limit the power of the state to interfere unreasonably in people’s lives and provide citizens with some pretty basic rights, e.g. the right to life.

Its purpose primarily was to safeguard against fascism in any signatory state.

The court that adjudicates is also completely separate from the EU.

That said, being in the ECHR is a fundamental condition of membership.

Leaving the EU sends out one message; leaving the ECHR would send out a completely different message about the retreat of the UK from any sort of leadership and where the country is headed.

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By *endrix30Man over a year ago

dudley

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy. "
You are correct, well said.

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By *endrix30Man over a year ago

dudley

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"To ignore the result of any public vote be it brexit or any other issue is undemocratic. The result of any vote should always be abided by or democracy has failed. "

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well you voted me in 30 years ago and I still demand to sleep with every new bride before her husband. So what?

Respect the process sheeple

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The result of overly simplistic thinking should always be ignored

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

The answer to the OP depends where you are looking at this from?

If you voted Leave and live in England, it is democracy at work. If you voted Remain and live in Northern Ireland, perhaps not.

Parts of the UK already sit outside the single market and EU law.

The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.

Across Europe, there are many examples of parts of member states sitting outside the single state and EU law.

Denmark is perhaps the most obvious, but there are others.

Within the governance of the EU, it would be quite feasible for the UK to remain a member but for the territory known as England and Wales to be removed from the single market and EU law.

The UK would remain a member state and Scotland and NI would remain in the single market etc.

The rules of the EU allow this, but the inflexibility of the UK constitutional arrangements would be an obstacle. It is perhaps the clearest argument for a new federal solution to the UK's constitutional mess I have come across.

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By *ay68Man over a year ago

London

Brexit won't happen.

The Civil Service don't want it,the Armed Forces and the majority of MPs don't want it and the rest of the World doesn't want it.

Decisions of this importance are never left to the people...whatever we might like to think.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We have seen it in action as brexiters dont think it is democratic to change their mind as they wont get a good deal, they would rather drive through a wall then to turn left, whats your view?"

Here’s my view, it’s through a window, I can see the world go by.

Yawn....so boring....change the subject.

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By *endrix30Man over a year ago

dudley

"To ignore the result of any public vote be it brexit or any other issue is undemocratic. The result of any vote should always be abided by or democracy has failed.

So if ignoring any vote is wrong and all votes should be abided by where do you stand on employers and government using courts to reverse strike votes? Or in political parties discarding major election pledges within hours of being elected? Which is more important abiding by a vote where the voters were lied to and the result will seriously harm the voters or doing the right thing? And finally if you believe that abiding by votes is the more important than any other consideration what if any punishment should be meeted out to those who deliberately lie to and defraud the electorate by use of false information to alter an election result?"
Employers and governments using courts to reverse strike votes is undemocratic too as they are ignoring the result of a democratic vote. No democratic vote should ever be ignored no matter what the vote was for, to ignore or overrule the result of a vote goes against all democratic principles.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"To ignore the result of any public vote be it brexit or any other issue is undemocratic. The result of any vote should always be abided by or democracy has failed.

So if ignoring any vote is wrong and all votes should be abided by where do you stand on employers and government using courts to reverse strike votes? Or in political parties discarding major election pledges within hours of being elected? Which is more important abiding by a vote where the voters were lied to and the result will seriously harm the voters or doing the right thing? And finally if you believe that abiding by votes is the more important than any other consideration what if any punishment should be meeted out to those who deliberately lie to and defraud the electorate by use of false information to alter an election result? Employers and governments using courts to reverse strike votes is undemocratic too as they are ignoring the result of a democratic vote. No democratic vote should ever be ignored no matter what the vote was for, to ignore or overrule the result of a vote goes against all democratic principles."

Why are democratic principles held in such regard anyway? It's all a lie

The current setup is beyond disfunctional.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

did you hear the comments from moggsy today...

if the no deal ammendments go thru then may should consider closing parliament to block that options....

hardly democratic now is it!!!

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"did you hear the comments from moggsy today...

if the no deal ammendments go thru then may should consider closing parliament to block that options....

hardly democratic now is it!!!

If remainers like Speaker John Bercow can bend the rules and break centuries of Parliamentary precedence, and remainers think they can bend and break the long established and well respected rules of the UK constitution by bringing forward primary legislation without consent of the government, then you can damn well expect the government to fight back and start playing dirty in return!

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"did you hear the comments from moggsy today...

if the no deal ammendments go thru then may should consider closing parliament to block that options....

hardly democratic now is it!!!

Bending the rules is what people do, if it was as you say it would have been stopped by the government by now..

Funny that your getting het up over rule bending yet on another thread it's OK with you that the leave campaign broke, not bent the law during the campaign..

Confused much?

Or are you actually really so lacking in morality that as long as you think you've won its OK?

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"did you hear the comments from moggsy today...

if the no deal ammendments go thru then may should consider closing parliament to block that options....

hardly democratic now is it!!!

nice speech.... totally irrelivant! totally swerving the topic that is at hand.... classic centy "bait and switch" when you know nothing about the subject....

so... time to educate

may said to parliament that on tuesday her motion with regard to plan b , whatever motion they put forward, would be an amendable motion.....

various people on all sides have put forward amendments to that motion, for example... one is that a time limit date be put on the backstop, another is being able to extend article 50, another is to legally take no deal off the table...

moggsy is saying that if the amendment passes with a majority in the house, that he doesn't like.... or may doesn't like, should ignore that amendment by closing parliament so that can't become part of the law.....

again..... hardly democratic is it!

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

"did you hear the comments from moggsy today...

if the no deal ammendments go thru then may should consider closing parliament to block that options....

hardly democratic now is it!!!

Take back control, eh?

Only if it's the elite who are in control.

Viva la revolucion!

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By *endrix30Man over a year ago

dudley

"To ignore the result of any public vote be it brexit or any other issue is undemocratic. The result of any vote should always be abided by or democracy has failed.

So if ignoring any vote is wrong and all votes should be abided by where do you stand on employers and government using courts to reverse strike votes? Or in political parties discarding major election pledges within hours of being elected? Which is more important abiding by a vote where the voters were lied to and the result will seriously harm the voters or doing the right thing? And finally if you believe that abiding by votes is the more important than any other consideration what if any punishment should be meeted out to those who deliberately lie to and defraud the electorate by use of false information to alter an election result? Employers and governments using courts to reverse strike votes is undemocratic too as they are ignoring the result of a democratic vote. No democratic vote should ever be ignored no matter what the vote was for, to ignore or overrule the result of a vote goes against all democratic principles.

Why are democratic principles held in such regard anyway? It's all a lie

The current setup is beyond

disfunctional. "

You are right about the current setup, the system is corrupt.

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

So it's the height of democracy to ignore a democratic referendum to leave an institution that isn't democratic in order to be able to have another referendum so that we might stay in an undemocratic institution?

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By *endrix30Man over a year ago

dudley

"So it's the height of democracy to ignore a democratic referendum to leave an institution that isn't democratic in order to be able to have another referendum so that we might stay in an undemocratic institution?"

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

If you really believe what you have written then you have either not been paying attention for the last four years or your confirmation bias is so heavily imprinted in your mindset that even removing you from your echo chamber would have no consequence.

Let me guess... You saw that line on Facebook and thought it sounded good.

Politics by meme is where this great country now lives.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You missed out that the side that won, broke electoral law and have been found guilty in a British sovereign court!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 25/01/19 10:27:11]

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I heard that reeves want to close the parliament so that noone can vote, that is a threat against democracy.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"I heard that reeves want to close the parliament so that noone can vote, that is a threat against democracy."

The Labour MP Rachel Reeves? That's a new one, lol.

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By *avidnsa69Man over a year ago

Essex

"I heard that reeves want to close the parliament so that noone can vote, that is a threat against democracy.

The Labour MP Rachel Reeves? That's a new one, lol.

You know he meant Rees-Smug of course

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I heard that reeves want to close the parliament so that noone can vote, that is a threat against democracy.

The Labour MP Rachel Reeves? That's a new one, lol.

"
No, the extreme brexiter lol.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I heard that reeves want to close the parliament so that noone can vote, that is a threat against democracy.

The Labour MP Rachel Reeves? That's a new one, lol.

You know he meant Rees-Smug of course"
That is right

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy. "

This is the narrative for the future when people start losing jobs and the pound slumps even further.

“It’s all the remainers fault”

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

This is the narrative for the future when people start losing jobs and the pound slumps even further.

“It’s all the remainers fault”

Believe it or not this has been the narrative for a while already.

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

Let me guess... You saw that line on Facebook and thought it sounded good.

Politics by meme is where this great country now lives."

No, I don't quote things randomly. That is my take on Brexit, but also the erosion of democracy in neoliberal Europe.

It's quite worrying, see: Chomsky.

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By *imiUKMan over a year ago

Hereford

Also: it's mildly amusing that you are so utterly convinced that everyone who doesn't share your viewpoint is stupid, you have already decided that they (In this case, me) aren't even clever enough to construct a mildly flippant remark.

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By *ob198XaMan over a year ago

teleford

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

Just think about that for a moment and think about how many diverse opinions there are of Brexit and how all of those different versions added together made up a melting pot of different visions.

People who wanted to stay in the CU and SM

People who saw a Norway/Switzerland kind of arrangement

People who wanted a unique and bespoke deal with EU

People who wanted Brexit just to “do something about immigration”

People who voted in protest at decades of feeling left behind

Racists (who all voted for Brexit)

Anarchists (who all voted for Brexit)

UKIP voters who had spent years worshipping their living God Nigel Farage and believed everything he said - without question.

Life-long Eurosceptics

And so on, and so on, and so on

The entire argument about Brexit can never really be won by one set of Brexiters because not all Brexit visions are the same. Hence the inherent logic behind a 2nd Referendum.

52% voted for Brexit but every one of those voted for a different vision of Brexit, only a small % will get the Brexit they wanted whilst 48% of the country would have been happy with remaining... Only a hard Brexit is really Brexit, it’s the only way we can have independent trade deals but it comes at the cost of civil war in Northern Ireland and bombs on our streets and the risk of a massive economic hit. A hard Brexit was not what was sold to voters by Vote Leave, there is theferore no mandate for it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 30/01/19 18:21:22]

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Today may said scotland voted in but they belong to england, the others in the union got no say, that is what I call titanicking.

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

" A hard Brexit was not what was sold to voters by Vote Leave, there is theferore no mandate for it.

Indeed. It was dismissed repeatedly as Project Fear.

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By *rMrsWestMidsCouple over a year ago

Dudley

" A hard Brexit was not what was sold to voters by Vote Leave, there is theferore no mandate for it.

Indeed. It was dismissed repeatedly as Project Fear.

I thought we didn't KNOW what sort of Brexit we were voting for! Isn't that what remainers have been saying for 2 1/2years, wasn't that the excuse for another referendum!

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

" A hard Brexit was not what was sold to voters by Vote Leave, there is theferore no mandate for it.

Indeed. It was dismissed repeatedly as Project Fear.

I thought we didn't KNOW what sort of Brexit we were voting for! Isn't that what remainers have been saying for 2 1/2years, wasn't that the excuse for another referendum!"

I think it was Jacob Rees Mogg who said that - that it would be sensible to have a 2nd referendum when the terms were clear.

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By *rMrsWestMidsCouple over a year ago

Dudley

" A hard Brexit was not what was sold to voters by Vote Leave, there is theferore no mandate for it.

Indeed. It was dismissed repeatedly as Project Fear.

I thought we didn't KNOW what sort of Brexit we were voting for! Isn't that what remainers have been saying for 2 1/2years, wasn't that the excuse for another referendum!

I think it was Jacob Rees Mogg who said that - that it would be sensible to have a 2nd referendum when the terms were clear.

Lol every remainer and his dog has been saying it!

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Today may said scotland voted in but they belong to england, the others in the union got no say, that is what I call titanicking.

It's actually thanks to the remainer called Gina Miller that Scotland has no say now. Her court case against the UK government led to the UK Supreme court ruling that the devolved Parliaments in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have no say on Brexit because it was the UK Parliament in Westminster who took the UK into the EU and only the UK parliament in Westminster can now take the UK out of the EU. That is the legal ruling on the matter. Do you respect the rule of law and the Supreme court ruling or not?

And if you listen to former President of the European Parliament Martin Schultz he said at the time he was President that "the UK belongs to the EU". Is that what you call titanicking as well?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

" A hard Brexit was not what was sold to voters by Vote Leave, there is theferore no mandate for it.

A hard Brexit is defined by leaving the single market and the customs union. Vote Leave said the UK should leave the single market and the customs union.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" A hard Brexit was not what was sold to voters by Vote Leave, there is theferore no mandate for it.

A hard Brexit is defined by leaving the single market and the customs union. Vote Leave said the UK should leave the single market and the customs union. "

I will admit I’ve not checked the source but...

Vote leave : There is a free trade zone stretching all the way from Iceland to the Russian border. We will still be part of it after we Vote Leave

Danial Haman: Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market

BoJo in the telegraph : There will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" A hard Brexit was not what was sold to voters by Vote Leave, there is theferore no mandate for it.

A hard Brexit is defined by leaving the single market and the customs union. Vote Leave said the UK should leave the single market and the customs union. "

Overnight or in an orderly manner?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

" A hard Brexit was not what was sold to voters by Vote Leave, there is theferore no mandate for it.

A hard Brexit is defined by leaving the single market and the customs union. Vote Leave said the UK should leave the single market and the customs union.

I will admit I’ve not checked the source but...

Vote leave : There is a free trade zone stretching all the way from Iceland to the Russian border. We will still be part of it after we Vote Leave

Danial Haman: Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market

BoJo in the telegraph : There will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market"

There is a free trade zone stretching all the way from Iceland to the Russian border. It's called Europe. The UK is not leaving Europe when we leave the EU.

Daniel Hannan may like to stay in the single market but that puts him in a minority amongst Brexiters if that's his view.

Bojo was absolutely correct in the comment you highlighted. We can continue to have free trade with the EU after Brexit if there is a Free trade agreement signed by both parties. Be it Theresa May's deal or if we negotiate a Canada Style free trade deal with the EU as a 3rd country after 29th March.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" A hard Brexit was not what was sold to voters by Vote Leave, there is theferore no mandate for it.

A hard Brexit is defined by leaving the single market and the customs union. Vote Leave said the UK should leave the single market and the customs union.

I will admit I’ve not checked the source but...

Vote leave : There is a free trade zone stretching all the way from Iceland to the Russian border. We will still be part of it after we Vote Leave

Danial Haman: Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market

BoJo in the telegraph : There will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market

There is a free trade zone stretching all the way from Iceland to the Russian border. It's called Europe. The UK is not leaving Europe when we leave the EU.

Daniel Hannan may like to stay in the single market but that puts him in a minority amongst Brexiters if that's his view.

Access to the single market of the EU does not require countries to be in it. Countries outside of the EU and outside of the single market have access to it through trade, even if it's on WTO rules with tariffs, you still have access to it. There are differing degrees of access depending on what type of deal you have with the EU. "
let me be clear here, you are saying we have access to the single market/free trade area under WTO because we can still trade with them. Even if it’s with tarriffs. And you are saying that this is what the above quotes were alluding to? If this is all true, it feels disiengous to use specific terms that imply free trade, when in fact they meant “europe”. Now I don’t want to second guess what other people think but I certainly wouldn’t have read any of that this way....

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By *ethnmelvCouple over a year ago

Cardiff

" A hard Brexit was not what was sold to voters by Vote Leave, there is theferore no mandate for it.

A hard Brexit is defined by leaving the single market and the customs union. Vote Leave said the UK should leave the single market and the customs union.

I will admit I’ve not checked the source but...

Vote leave : There is a free trade zone stretching all the way from Iceland to the Russian border. We will still be part of it after we Vote Leave

Danial Haman: Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market

BoJo in the telegraph : There will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market

There is a free trade zone stretching all the way from Iceland to the Russian border. It's called Europe. The UK is not leaving Europe when we leave the EU.

Daniel Hannan may like to stay in the single market but that puts him in a minority amongst Brexiters if that's his view.

Dreamland as usual - none of this is going to happen, have you not observed the negotiating skills of the Tory’s! We are being right, royally fucked, and a lot of pain for no gain is not the right answer.

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By *mmabluTV/TS over a year ago

upton wirral

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By *mmabluTV/TS over a year ago

upton wirral

"Today may said scotland voted in but they belong to england, the others in the union got no say, that is what I call titanicking.

And if you listen to former President of the European Parliament Martin Schultz he said at the time he was President that "the UK belongs to the EU". Is that what you call titanicking as well? "
We belong to nothing.If as an individual I join a golf club I do not belong to it,we must never be dictated to by outsiders

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By *mmabluTV/TS over a year ago

upton wirral

"Today may said scotland voted in but they belong to england, the others in the union got no say, that is what I call titanicking.

"
If May said this it is an awfull thing to say and offensive to the Scots,they belong to Great Britain and the UK as do England,N Ireland and Wales we are one nation

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Scotland voted with 62% to remain in the eu, so why dont that get accepted as it is the majority?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Scotland voted with 62% to remain in the eu, so why dont that get accepted as it is the majority?"
With they I meant the uk.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Scotland voted with 62% to remain in the eu, so why dont that get accepted as it is the majority?"

Cannock chase voted almost 70% to leave the EU, so why don't that get accepted as it is the majority.

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By *naqMan over a year ago

Ayrshire

Hhhmmm 100,000 people vs 5 and 1/2 million its a bit of stretch comparing 3 counties in the West Midlands to an entire country.

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By *naqMan over a year ago

Ayrshire

"Today may said scotland voted in but they belong to england, the others in the union got no say, that is what I call titanicking.

If May said this it is an awfull thing to say and offensive to the Scots,they belong to Great Britain and the UK as do England,N Ireland and Wales we are one nation"

When i hear the term British my mind runs to this outdated image of a bunch of pub lunch t wearing morris dancers.

Not the reality of vampire politicians, corrupt media, our joke of a royal family, and of course the united kingdom of westminster.

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By *naqMan over a year ago

Ayrshire

Fab doesnt like the word T W E E D? Wtf?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Hhhmmm 100,000 people vs 5 and 1/2 million its a bit of stretch comparing 3 counties in the West Midlands to an entire country. "

Cannock chase isn't 3 counties, it's one county.

And if you're using that logic 5 1/2 million people vs 65 million people is a bit of a stretch comparing one region of the UK to the entire UK. The truth is the EU referendum wasn't a Scottish referendum, a Welsh referendum or a Cannock chase referendum it was a UK referendum, and the UK as a whole voted 52% Leave.

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

" A hard Brexit was not what was sold to voters by Vote Leave, there is theferore no mandate for it.

A hard Brexit is defined by leaving the single market and the customs union. Vote Leave said the UK should leave the single market and the customs union. "

No deal?

Project Fear, you exclaimed.

As if the EU would be stupid enough not to give us what we wanted.

No chance of no deal, you said.

Scaremongering.

When did you do a volte face?

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By *iscreet_divorced_guyMan over a year ago

central

The question is basically ‘is another referendum an affront to democracy when a choice has already been settled on”

My tuppence to that question is firstly, democracy is ongoing, people can change their minds when new information comes to light.

And secondly, it is no more of an affront to democracy to hold a second referendum, when the winning argument from the first referendum has been shown up to be totally false!

Even if someone is convicted of a serious crime, and new information, or new perspectives come to light, the person convicted is entitled to an appeal.

The fact that Brexit is not going to be the great thing that it was originally made out to be, is a totally new perspective to a lot of voters!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The question is basically ‘is another referendum an affront to democracy when a choice has already been settled on”

My tuppence to that question is firstly, democracy is ongoing, people can change their minds when new information comes to light.

And secondly, it is no more of an affront to democracy to hold a second referendum, when the winning argument from the first referendum has been shown up to be totally false!

Even if someone is convicted of a serious crime, and new information, or new perspectives come to light, the person convicted is entitled to an appeal.

The fact that Brexit is not going to be the great thing that it was originally made out to be, is a totally new perspective to a lot of voters!!"

Brexiters were promised so much by so many . Dissatisfaction is inevitable.

My grandmother always told me .A promise gives comfort to a fool.

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By *oxychick35Couple over a year ago

thornaby

Wheyyyy another insult to leave voters same shit diffrent day lol

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By *naqMan over a year ago

Ayrshire

County sorry not Country

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

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By *uck-RogersMan over a year ago

Tarka trail

14 weeks later. We now have a brexit party.

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By *tace 309TV/TS over a year ago

durham

"of course brexit is a threat to democracy. Any subject that so divides a democratic society that one side refuses to allow the society to revisit the subject when conditions change because they claim the society has no right to change its mind (regardless any subject) has to be a serious threat to that democratic society.So lets have a referendum every six months as things change and an election every year then.All you would get is anarchy.You cannot hold a vote everytime there is a shift in opinion as peoples opinions change al the time"
you can't have another referendum because some don't like it. If that was the case we, would still be voting to this day whether to join the common market or not. And as, far as lies go, we were lied to big style, back then. You get a once in a lifetime vote. You get a result. It's that simple. This isn't a game.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The question is basically ‘is another referendum an affront to democracy when a choice has already been settled on”

My tuppence to that question is firstly, democracy is ongoing, people can change their minds when new information comes to light.

And secondly, it is no more of an affront to democracy to hold a second referendum, when the winning argument from the first referendum has been shown up to be totally false!

Even if someone is convicted of a serious crime, and new information, or new perspectives come to light, the person convicted is entitled to an appeal.

The fact that Brexit is not going to be the great thing that it was originally made out to be, is a totally new perspective to a lot of voters!!"

I think the problem was with the referendum question...Does the UK want to leave the EU...it's very easy to say yes or to promote yes without understanding what that really means. Take back control....control immigration etc...that's easy to say and hard to do. In Ireland we regularly have referenda where the wording of the change of law is prepared well in advance and there is information on the yes and no argument. So you know what you are getting either way. The question of Brexit is too large and too complicated to get right with a single referendum. That's why it is now such a mess. Everybody can tell you what they don't want but enough can't tell you what they do want or they don't even know the facts. It's going to be tricky to solve. But the people should have a vote again on two clear options.

Either remain or a medium Brexit.

And they can't say you can't have another Brexit..we have done it twice..Europe asked us to vote again on Maastricht and Nice after they had clarified some of our concerns

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By *ethnmelvCouple over a year ago

Cardiff

"of course brexit is a threat to democracy. Any subject that so divides a democratic society that one side refuses to allow the society to revisit the subject when conditions change because they claim the society has no right to change its mind (regardless any subject) has to be a serious threat to that democratic society.So lets have a referendum every six months as things change and an election every year then.All you would get is anarchy.You cannot hold a vote everytime there is a shift in opinion as peoples opinions change al the timeyou can't have another referendum because some don't like it. If that was the case we, would still be voting to this day whether to join the common market or not. And as, far as lies go, we were lied to big style, back then. You get a once in a lifetime vote. You get a result. It's that simple. This isn't a game. "

We were not lied to in joining the Common Market - you are making that up

We were however lied to in June ‘16, we have since had a general election weakening May’s power, Peoples March, 6m signature petition. There is clearly great disquiet from many people about what is happenning.

Now due to May’s incompetence, we will have proxy votes in the Local and EU elections. Surely, it would have been better for all to have another genuine referendum. In a democracy that would be fair - is the reason Leavers object down to their doubt about winning?

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By *exy Sarah and MichaelCouple over a year ago

Torquay

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

They think they won and they now are in control forever.Its a childlike reaction from brexiters.Democracy is progressive not static like these idiots think.."

Spoken by a petulant sad losing remainer!

And the answer is to keep having votes until remain wins I guess then we should stop !

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

They think they won and they now are in control forever.Its a childlike reaction from brexiters.Democracy is progressive not static like these idiots think..

Spoken by a petulant sad losing remainer!

And the answer is to keep having votes until remain wins I guess then we should stop !"
But may will have meaningful votes until she wins, democracy means differently to a brexiter, best of 50 until she gets it?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

They think they won and they now are in control forever.Its a childlike reaction from brexiters.Democracy is progressive not static like these idiots think..

Spoken by a petulant sad losing remainer!

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By *ostafunMan over a year ago

near ipswich

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

They think they won and they now are in control forever.Its a childlike reaction from brexiters.Democracy is progressive not static like these idiots think..

Spoken by a petulant sad losing remainer!

And the answer is to keep having votes until remain wins I guess then we should stop !But may will have meaningful votes until she wins, democracy means differently to a brexiter, best of 50 until she gets it?"
i dont think you get the meaning of it,both the tories and labour stood on a manifesto of honouring the referendum that is what got them elected.Only 13 labour mps have voted for any of the leave with a deal or without a deal.Democracy is doing what the people elected you to do.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Isn't democracy about honouring the mandate you stood on.

Vote leave: we will have a new uk~eu deal based on free trade and friendly cooperation.

So if you believe they had a manifesto then it involved a deal.

Tory manifesto. We will seek a deep and special partnership including a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement.

So The ERG stood on a tory manifesto which talked about a deal. Yet kept voting against a deal.

Labour manifesto. Negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on the benefits of the SM and CU.

So arguably honouring their commitments

Only Ukip really talked about a no deal. And the lack of support here undermines the idea the UK people wants a no deal.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy. "

Indeed.

The problem with the opinion that you're presenting OP, is that whilst it's perfectly understandable and right that people should be able to change their minds, the result of the referendum hasn't been implemented yet.

The real threat to democracy here is a second referendum.

Why?

Simple. Because the first has yet to be implemented, having another vote in an attempt to overturn the result will destroy any faith or trust that the vast majority have in our politicians.

Think about it.

Whether you are for leave or remain, the fact that many in parliament seem to be doing everything they can to postpone, delay or stop brexit should be a massive wake up call to us all - that those same politicians are there only to serve themselves and not the people who elected them.

Brexit MUST be implemented, or our democracy dies.

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By *ibob300Couple over a year ago

north east

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy. "

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Isn't democracy about honouring the mandate you stood on.

Vote leave: we will have a new uk~eu deal based on free trade and friendly cooperation.

So if you believe they had a manifesto then it involved a deal.

Tory manifesto. We will seek a deep and special partnership including a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement.

So The ERG stood on a tory manifesto which talked about a deal. Yet kept voting against a deal.

Labour manifesto. Negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on the benefits of the SM and CU.

So arguably honouring their commitments

Only Ukip really talked about a no deal. And the lack of support here undermines the idea the UK people wants a no deal.

"
.

WTO arrangements are a deal.

It is possible to implement a temporary 2 year tariff free trade under WTO terms while the UK negotiates with the EU for a permanent tariff free deal or tariff aligned deal.

The only mandate asked was do you want to remain in the EU or leave, we chose leave.

In my opinion only wants we've actually left can democracy seek to undue that decision.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The only reason we haven't left the EU is the ERG and other extreme right wing brexiters.The babies chucked their toys out because their flavour of brexit isn't happening.

They've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory .The blame quite rightly lies at the feet of conservatives the DUP and all other brexiters.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

Indeed.

The real threat to democracy here is a second referendum.

Why?

Simple. Because the first has yet to be implemented, having another vote in an attempt to overturn the result will destroy any faith or trust that the vast majority have in our politicians.

Think about it.

Brexit MUST be implemented, or our democracy dies."

I get all the arguments about democracy BUT the big problem we face is that once we have left we cannot go back in any form with the same degree of advantage that we have now....it simply will not be on the table....and the terrible truth is that we are in a pretty good position within the EU and have a lot more control than many of the newer members do. I dont like the idea of doing down democracy but I know that Farage is not capable of running the country....he is very good at shouting the odds and belittling his opponents but he lied about how much support aaron banks was providing for him and his agenda is definitely aimed at the destruction of the NHS and the welfare state. I am very cynical about mr Banks motivation, as a man in his business would probably be more than happy to turn our NHS into an American style insurance based system but thats another story. I find it interesting that the tories are grooming Rory Stewart to replace Tresemme as a new and sensible candidate but who knows what will happen? Just as long as its not that sly windbag Farage who gets to power as he really is destroying everything in reach.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Isn't democracy about honouring the mandate you stood on.

Vote leave: we will have a new uk~eu deal based on free trade and friendly cooperation.

So if you believe they had a manifesto then it involved a deal.

Tory manifesto. We will seek a deep and special partnership including a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement.

So The ERG stood on a tory manifesto which talked about a deal. Yet kept voting against a deal.

Labour manifesto. Negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on the benefits of the SM and CU.

So arguably honouring their commitments

Only Ukip really talked about a no deal. And the lack of support here undermines the idea the UK people wants a no deal.

WTO arrangements are a deal.

It is possible to implement a temporary 2 year tariff free trade under WTO terms while the UK negotiates with the EU for a permanent tariff free deal or tariff aligned deal.

The only mandate asked was do you want to remain in the EU or leave, we chose leave.

In my opinion only wants we've actually left can democracy seek to undue that decision."

Re the temporary arrangement. I don't believe it is true. To have a trnasition period you need to have the bare bones of an fta agreed. We don't. So it's wto. Some have said we could waive MFN because of security concerns. Haven't heard that argument for a while tho.

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"Isn't democracy about honouring the mandate you stood on.

Vote leave: we will have a new uk~eu deal based on free trade and friendly cooperation.

So if you believe they had a manifesto then it involved a deal.

Tory manifesto. We will seek a deep and special partnership including a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement.

So The ERG stood on a tory manifesto which talked about a deal. Yet kept voting against a deal.

Labour manifesto. Negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on the benefits of the SM and CU.

So arguably honouring their commitments

Only Ukip really talked about a no deal. And the lack of support here undermines the idea the UK people wants a no deal.

WTO arrangements are a deal.

It is possible to implement a temporary 2 year tariff free trade under WTO terms while the UK negotiates with the EU for a permanent tariff free deal or tariff aligned deal.

The only mandate asked was do you want to remain in the EU or leave, we chose leave.

In my opinion only wants we've actually left can democracy seek to undue that decision."

Like many - you are blinded by the issues revolving around trade and how they magically resolve themsolves through WTO rules. Even if that were true - a withdrawal agreement of some kind would need to be in place to ensure that the UK could function on a day to day basis after we leave.

So much of our day to day existence is possible because of the rules and regulations that we are a part of within the EU. Leaving without a deal puts the country in legal limbo and without our own standards agencies and regulatory bodies (that have had time to become legally accredited) the country would be knackered. Critical areas include: Transport (aviation and shipping), Security, Financial Services (including insurance and banking), Energy, Agriculture and Foodstuff, fishing, Customs and so much more.

It really is not just about WTO when the UK does not have its own world recognised standards agencies anymore.

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By *entakuruMan over a year ago

Exeter

Regardless of the result, yes it is.

You can't deny people a choice in 99% of matters yet all of a sudden give them one binary choice and call it 'democracy' especially when the rules surrounding referenda and if they should be considered mandatory or advisory, just don't exist! Furthermore once that referendum is scrutinised it turns out that voters based their decision on disinformation then the outcome can't be considered valid either.

I am a big believer in referendums and direct democracy but this is merely playing lip service to the concept, our leaders do whatever they want regardless of what tuff n population thinks anyway.

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By *entakuruMan over a year ago

Exeter

*what our

Stupid autocorrect and no edit button!

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By *ostafunMan over a year ago

near ipswich

"The only reason we haven't left the EU is the ERG and other extreme right wing brexiters.The babies chucked their toys out because their flavour of brexit isn't happening.

They've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory .The blame quite rightly lies at the feet of conservatives the DUP and all other brexiters.

"
You can keep spouting the same thing but does not make it true,the erg have voted for their idea of brexit and i can see why you think its them that have scuppered it but the truth is there are 246 labour mps who all but a handful refuse to vote for any leave option.These same mps triggered artical 50 and then stood on a mandate to implement it,this is the true betrayal of democracy.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The only reason we haven't left the EU is the ERG and other extreme right wing brexiters.The babies chucked their toys out because their flavour of brexit isn't happening.

They've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory .The blame quite rightly lies at the feet of conservatives the DUP and all other brexiters.

You can keep spouting the same thing but does not make it true,the erg have voted for their idea of brexit and i can see why you think its them that have scuppered it but the truth is there are 246 labour mps who all but a handful refuse to vote for any leave option.These same mps triggered artical 50 and then stood on a mandate to implement it,this is the true betrayal of democracy."

It's true that the 28 hardline members of the European Research Group sided with Remainers to block Theresa May’s deal .Unless you live in an alternate reality. Your conservatives and the DUP threw away Brexit for the hope of a no deal.Something only a very tiny minority of extremists believe in .

They've fucked it up and don't have a pair of balls to admit their folly.Their passion for a perfect Brexit has given remainers all the ammunition needed to get a second referendum or water brexit down to such an extent it's going to irrelevant.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The only reason we haven't left the EU is the ERG and other extreme right wing brexiters.The babies chucked their toys out because their flavour of brexit isn't happening.

They've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory .The blame quite rightly lies at the feet of conservatives the DUP and all other brexiters.

Why can't Labour MPs be allowed to vote for their idea of Brexit?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

Indeed.

The real threat to democracy here is a second referendum.

Why?

Simple. Because the first has yet to be implemented, having another vote in an attempt to overturn the result will destroy any faith or trust that the vast majority have in our politicians.

Think about it.

Brexit MUST be implemented, or our democracy dies."
There is a big difference between being sensible versus democracy in some cases and this is just such a case, it is good that the parliament is blocking brexit, as they can see what is best for the country and interest for northern ireland.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The only reason we haven't left the EU is the ERG and other extreme right wing brexiters.The babies chucked their toys out because their flavour of brexit isn't happening.

They've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory .The blame quite rightly lies at the feet of conservatives the DUP and all other brexiters.

This is pure common sense

. I think you've both made the case for accepting the deal on offer LOL. It's very watered down but OWT is better than NOWT. However I suspect that most MPs do not have your level of common sense.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan over a year ago

salisbury

Essentially the Tories are genius! They wanted remain, and they managed to turn the media and us middle class liberals against the decision of a free democratic vote! That's power right there, power to manipulate us into agreeing with them. now we're all Tory. Yay. The only mainstream politician who was actually pro leave bottled it and said nothing because the chance of power stopped him. Welcome to the post democratic age where it doesn't matter what we vote, because *they* know what's best for us.. Now run along, earn, consume, pay lots of lovely tax, then die. And be quick about it!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We have seen it in action as brexiters dont think it is democratic to change their mind as they wont get a good deal, they would rather drive through a wall then to turn left, whats your view?"

BREXIT is and will be the right thing for the UK I’m the long run. We may need to lean on our commonwealth at first, but this island of over 60 million people will not be hitting a wall. We will simply bridge it.

Fuck the EU

Fuck Merkel

And fuck Barnier

We want our country back!!!

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"We have seen it in action as brexiters dont think it is democratic to change their mind as they wont get a good deal, they would rather drive through a wall then to turn left, whats your view?

Fuck the EU

Fuck Merkel

And fuck Barnier

We want our country back!!!"

“Lean on ‘our’ commonwealth”

That is just hilarious.

Is it any wonder we are in this place right now with people who think like this?

Presumably by “our” commonwealth, you mean like those countries who are already objecting to our WTO weighting because they see it as unfair disadvantage? With commonwealth “friends” like that who needs friends in the EU?

Still I suppose all will be resolved after the WTO elections and we get to resolve the issue from within as major players?

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By *uxinteriorMan over a year ago

south west , continental

"Essentially the Tories are genius! They wanted remain, and they managed to turn the media and us middle class liberals against the decision of a free democratic vote! That's power right there, power to manipulate us into agreeing with them. now we're all Tory. Yay. The only mainstream politician who was actually pro leave bottled it and said nothing because the chance of power stopped him. Welcome to the post democratic age where it doesn't matter what we vote, because *they* know what's best for us.. Now run along, earn, consume, pay lots of lovely tax, then die. And be quick about it!"

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By *agermeisterMan over a year ago

Leeds

"dont see it as a leavers problem its remainers failing to fulfill the wishes of the people .Thats the threat to democracy.

What's more important. Refusing to allow democracy to be a continuous process, or to do what's right for the people of the UK?

Democracy is an on going process, not a once off deal.

The best and most optimistic current pro-brexit argument is "no one knows how bad it will be".

The "we must respect democracy by not having a referendum" argument is moronic.

I actually don't think we should have another ref by the way. But just wanting democracy to freeze when it's swung to the far right seems fairly totalitarian. And anti-democratic.

Just think about that for a moment and think about how many diverse opinions there are of Brexit and how all of those different versions added together made up a melting pot of different visions.

People who wanted to stay in the CU and SM

People who saw a Norway/Switzerland kind of arrangement

People who wanted a unique and bespoke deal with EU

People who wanted Brexit just to “do something about immigration”

People who voted in protest at decades of feeling left behind

Racists (who all voted for Brexit)

Anarchists (who all voted for Brexit)

UKIP voters who had spent years worshipping their living God Nigel Farage and believed everything he said - without question.

Life-long Eurosceptics

And so on, and so on, and so on

The entire argument about Brexit can never really be won by one set of Brexiters because not all Brexit visions are the same. Hence the inherent logic behind a 2nd Referendum.

Anarchists don't vote

But I agree with your argument totally.

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

Democracy is threatened when the media spends its time attacking the opposition to Government.

A country where the media is aligned with the ruling party is in a poor state of health.

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