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How to make the UK more democratic
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Just thinking about some of the complaints through the last two year, I wonder if we could reinvent our system...
Proportional Representation. I think the referendum inspired lots of people to vote, not because they cared particularly about the EU but because their vote mattered. I also think given UKIP were the “protest” vote which helped take us to the referendum they should have possibly had more voice during the last few years but were possibly not voted for in 2017 as a Europe protest vote was no longer needed even if you agreed with their views.
House chooses the key executive. I think May was chosen as PM by the tories due to party politics (uniting them lol) rather than being the wider political considerations. Certainly her being a remainer has cause issues. Likewise I think she’s been seen to load the government with remainers.
The house (and only the house) votes. It’s been a while since HOL bashing but should only our representatives (now a better rep as PR) vote?
Id like to get rid of our two party politics too as it doesn’t allow enough variety in voice. Particularly if the two main parties agree on something. Maybe PR will encourage a greater range.
Would this have made us more democratic? |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"We should have a referendum on PR .
Settle it once and for all..  "
oh my god another one... god no
1) Pure PR doesn't work anyway.... if you want to know what pure PR looks like... you only have to look at italy! they hear only had something like 45 different prime ministers since WW2 because its so unstable....
2) well if you are going to have a peoples vote... you should suggest some scamp do the 2nd "PR" referendum on the same day... it would cut costs!!!! |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"Just thinking about some of the complaints through the last two year, I wonder if we could reinvent our system...
Proportional Representation. I think the referendum inspired lots of people to vote, not because they cared particularly about the EU but because their vote mattered. I also think given UKIP were the “protest” vote which helped take us to the referendum they should have possibly had more voice during the last few years but were possibly not voted for in 2017 as a Europe protest vote was no longer needed even if you agreed with their views.
House chooses the key executive. I think May was chosen as PM by the tories due to party politics (uniting them lol) rather than being the wider political considerations. Certainly her being a remainer has cause issues. Likewise I think she’s been seen to load the government with remainers.
The house (and only the house) votes. It’s been a while since HOL bashing but should only our representatives (now a better rep as PR) vote?
Id like to get rid of our two party politics too as it doesn’t allow enough variety in voice. Particularly if the two main parties agree on something. Maybe PR will encourage a greater range.
Would this have made us more democratic? "
I think the HOC should remain constituency, with the HOL being a smaller chamber (say 300?) but using PR from the general election. Also, it shouldn't be 'Lords'.
That way, there's only one election, so no extra cost involved. And parties cannot fill the house of lords with their cronies, nor put them in as some kind of reward.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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PR is the only way we can surely get real pc
democracy. It is the only way that every vote will actually count. As things stand, there will only ever be two parties that can have any power in the House of Commons. All votes for minority parties will continue to be wasted. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"PR is the only way we can surely get real pc
democracy. It is the only way that every vote will actually count. As things stand, there will only ever be two parties that can have any power in the House of Commons. All votes for minority parties will continue to be wasted."
You had a referendum about alternative voting concepts not long after the expenses scandal.
It was all but ignored by the vast majority of the electorate. Why would that be I wonder? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
The Brexit debate has shown what an unbalanced mess the UK is constitutionally, with the legal rows about which powers returning from Brussels are reserved and devolved.
I'd like to see a constitutional convention established with a view to a new Act of Union, setting out an equitable framework for four autonomous nations that come together in a federal system for matters of common interest.
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
In this days of twitter,facebook and knee jerk reaction the amount of disimformation available on the internet I feel that true democracy is dying as people become more mindless in the age of the machine it scares me very much.
Society as we know it will end in the next 50 years I am glad I will not be around to see it and so pleased I do not have kids. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
So how to improve democracy,well get rid of political correctness for starts so polititions can be honest and truthfull we would decide with our votes weather we like what they say or not.
If a government does not do its best to carry out what it was elected to do at the end of the term they may face imprisoment and fines unless they could prove that it was impossible to do certain things in there manifesto.This may cut down the lies in the first place.
Ok none of this will happen but you have to start somewhere with an idea |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"The Brexit debate has shown what an unbalanced mess the UK is constitutionally, with the legal rows about which powers returning from Brussels are reserved and devolved.
I'd like to see a constitutional convention established with a view to a new Act of Union, setting out an equitable framework for four autonomous nations that come together in a federal system for matters of common interest.
"
I dont think its the system as much as the MPs for eg both partys said they would honor the referendum and its the mps who are going against what they were elected for.I think they should be stripped of there jobs and made to pay their wages and expenses back if they dont do what they were elected for. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In this days of twitter,facebook and knee jerk reaction the amount of disimformation available on the internet I feel that true democracy is dying as people become more mindless in the age of the machine it scares me very much.
Society as we know it will end in the next 50 years I am glad I will not be around to see it and so pleased I do not have kids."
Good !!!because society as you know is failing the next generation and putting in doubt the viability of life on earth.A brave new world will be built in the ashes of the old.
Embrace the future it's the only destination you can go... |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"In this days of twitter,facebook and knee jerk reaction the amount of disimformation available on the internet I feel that true democracy is dying as people become more mindless in the age of the machine it scares me very much.
Society as we know it will end in the next 50 years I am glad I will not be around to see it and so pleased I do not have kids.
Good !!!because society as you know is failing the next generation and putting in doubt the viability of life on earth.A brave new world will be built in the ashes of the old.
Embrace the future it's the only destination you can go... "
Fine if you think anarchy is the way to go,but to a lot of the problems is trying to please the greedy under 35's of today,they cause the pollution by the greed of there demands,you generation is very greedy and self scented and we have made a big mistake in allowing it.
I do not embrace the future,I do not embrace today I have been very lucky to grow up in as a teen inj the late 60's and the 70's and they where wonderfull times.Even during 3 day weeks and power strikes the human spirit and togetherness made it good.I do not think the selfish we are entitled to generation can understand this sadly |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In this days of twitter,facebook and knee jerk reaction the amount of disimformation available on the internet I feel that true democracy is dying as people become more mindless in the age of the machine it scares me very much.
Society as we know it will end in the next 50 years I am glad I will not be around to see it and so pleased I do not have kids.
Good !!!because society as you know is failing the next generation and putting in doubt the viability of life on earth.A brave new world will be built in the ashes of the old.
Embrace the future it's the only destination you can go... Fine if you think anarchy is the way to go,but to a lot of the problems is trying to please the greedy under 35's of today,they cause the pollution by the greed of there demands,you generation is very greedy and self scented and we have made a big mistake in allowing it.
I do not embrace the future,I do not embrace today I have been very lucky to grow up in as a teen inj the late 60's and the 70's and they where wonderfull times.Even during 3 day weeks and power strikes the human spirit and togetherness made it good.I do not think the selfish we are entitled to generation can understand this sadly"
I take it you never voted for Maggie Thatcher then? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"The Brexit debate has shown what an unbalanced mess the UK is constitutionally, with the legal rows about which powers returning from Brussels are reserved and devolved.
I'd like to see a constitutional convention established with a view to a new Act of Union, setting out an equitable framework for four autonomous nations that come together in a federal system for matters of common interest.
I dont think its the system as much as the MPs for eg both partys said they would honor the referendum and its the mps who are going against what they were elected for.I think they should be stripped of there jobs and made to pay their wages and expenses back if they dont do what they were elected for. "
Your post conflates elections and referenda.
MPs did enact the referendum outcome by endorsing Article 50.
We then had an election where voters were invited to select their variety of Brexit from manifestos.
Labour’s was soft, the Conservatives medium, UKIP’s hard and the Lib Dems and SNP wanted none at all.
UKIP and its hard brexit was wiped out.
There was a majority for Brexit but not any particular flavour.
Unless or until Article 50 is revoked, MPs are delivering on the 2016 referendum.
The impasse now is a result of the 2017 General Election. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"In this days of twitter,facebook and knee jerk reaction the amount of disimformation available on the internet I feel that true democracy is dying as people become more mindless in the age of the machine it scares me very much.
Society as we know it will end in the next 50 years I am glad I will not be around to see it and so pleased I do not have kids.
Good !!!because society as you know is failing the next generation and putting in doubt the viability of life on earth.A brave new world will be built in the ashes of the old.
Embrace the future it's the only destination you can go... Fine if you think anarchy is the way to go,but to a lot of the problems is trying to please the greedy under 35's of today,they cause the pollution by the greed of there demands,you generation is very greedy and self scented and we have made a big mistake in allowing it.
I do not embrace the future,I do not embrace today I have been very lucky to grow up in as a teen inj the late 60's and the 70's and they where wonderfull times.Even during 3 day weeks and power strikes the human spirit and togetherness made it good.I do not think the selfish we are entitled to generation can understand this sadly
I take it you never voted for Maggie Thatcher then?"
I did yes but not everytime,I voted because I was opposed to the greed of Scargill and his union and wanted his defeat so much,once that was done no time for Maggie,her first term was good but not afterwards. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"In this days of twitter,facebook and knee jerk reaction the amount of disimformation available on the internet I feel that true democracy is dying as people become more mindless in the age of the machine it scares me very much.
Society as we know it will end in the next 50 years I am glad I will not be around to see it and so pleased I do not have kids.
Good !!!because society as you know is failing the next generation and putting in doubt the viability of life on earth.A brave new world will be built in the ashes of the old.
Embrace the future it's the only destination you can go... Fine if you think anarchy is the way to go,but to a lot of the problems is trying to please the greedy under 35's of today,they cause the pollution by the greed of there demands,you generation is very greedy and self scented and we have made a big mistake in allowing it.
I do not embrace the future,I do not embrace today I have been very lucky to grow up in as a teen inj the late 60's and the 70's and they where wonderfull times.Even during 3 day weeks and power strikes the human spirit and togetherness made it good.I do not think the selfish we are entitled to generation can understand this sadly
I take it you never voted for Maggie Thatcher then?I did yes but not everytime,I voted because I was opposed to the greed of Scargill and his union and wanted his defeat so much,once that was done no time for Maggie,her first term was good but not afterwards."
So you voted for her once? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"In this days of twitter,facebook and knee jerk reaction the amount of disimformation available on the internet I feel that true democracy is dying as people become more mindless in the age of the machine it scares me very much.
Society as we know it will end in the next 50 years I am glad I will not be around to see it and so pleased I do not have kids.
Good !!!because society as you know is failing the next generation and putting in doubt the viability of life on earth.A brave new world will be built in the ashes of the old.
Embrace the future it's the only destination you can go... Fine if you think anarchy is the way to go,but to a lot of the problems is trying to please the greedy under 35's of today,they cause the pollution by the greed of there demands,you generation is very greedy and self scented and we have made a big mistake in allowing it.
I do not embrace the future,I do not embrace today I have been very lucky to grow up in as a teen inj the late 60's and the 70's and they where wonderfull times.Even during 3 day weeks and power strikes the human spirit and togetherness made it good.I do not think the selfish we are entitled to generation can understand this sadly
I take it you never voted for Maggie Thatcher then?I did yes but not everytime,I voted because I was opposed to the greed of Scargill and his union and wanted his defeat so much,once that was done no time for Maggie,her first term was good but not afterwards."
You realise that you voted in a woman who said, "there's no such thing as society"
After you reminisced about the "good old days of human spirit and togetherness" |
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It would be easy OP if there was the will.
First introduce a STV (single transferable vote) system with multiple (5 seat) constituencies with 3 of those seats locally elected and 2 passed to the national pool which are then divided out proportionally amongst the political parties and representatives selected in order from published 'Party Lists'.
Of course this will never happen because it would mean politicians would have to govern by consensus rather than dictate and virtually all politicians would rather a system where they take turns being in power than always having to share power. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"It would be easy OP if there was the will.
First introduce a STV (single transferable vote) system with multiple (5 seat) constituencies with 3 of those seats locally elected and 2 passed to the national pool which are then divided out proportionally amongst the political parties and representatives selected in order from published 'Party Lists'.
Of course this will never happen because it would mean politicians would have to govern by consensus rather than dictate and virtually all politicians would rather a system where they take turns being in power than always having to share power."
The problem with power sharing is nothing gets done look at the N irish . |
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"It would be easy OP if there was the will.
First introduce a STV (single transferable vote) system with multiple (5 seat) constituencies with 3 of those seats locally elected and 2 passed to the national pool which are then divided out proportionally amongst the political parties and representatives selected in order from published 'Party Lists'.
Of course this will never happen because it would mean politicians would have to govern by consensus rather than dictate and virtually all politicians would rather a system where they take turns being in power than always having to share power.The problem with power sharing is nothing gets done look at the N irish ."
So you are saying people living in peace is nothing getting done?
The assembly isn't sitting but the people of those 6 counties have a much better quality of life than if that wasn't the case |
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"The problem with power sharing is nothing gets done look at the N irish ."
Really?
You think 20 years of relative peace in NI, during which time many sectarian barriers have been dismantled is a problem.
I think you're nuts! |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"The peace came because of the power sharing sure that i can agree but they cant even talk to one another at the moment so nothing is getting done.
You do know why?"
Yes but the last i saw was something about the irish language.The point im making is power sharing in my view doesnt work we can see what a mess brexit is all because nobody has overall power.Maybe in hindsight N ireland was not a good example. |
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"Yes but the last i saw was something about the irish language.The point im making is power sharing in my view doesnt work we can see what a mess brexit is all because nobody has overall power.Maybe in hindsight N ireland was not a good example."
No! Nothing to do with the Irish language or housing or anything else for that matter. They are nothing more than smokescreens and excuses for power grabs. The reason that the NI Assembly is closed down is because the politicians on 1 side saw an opportunity to STOP sharing power.
Most politicians would rather none have power than share it with those who do not share their politics. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Yes but the last i saw was something about the irish language.The point im making is power sharing in my view doesnt work we can see what a mess brexit is all because nobody has overall power.Maybe in hindsight N ireland was not a good example.
No! Nothing to do with the Irish language or housing or anything else for that matter. They are nothing more than smokescreens and excuses for power grabs. The reason that the NI Assembly is closed down is because the politicians on 1 side saw an opportunity to STOP sharing power.
Most politicians would rather none have power than share it with those who do not share their politics."
AH right bit like remainer mp,s putting up all sorts of smokescreens to get what they want.Yes can see a similarity |
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"AH right bit like remainer mp,s putting up all sorts of smokescreens to get what they want.Yes can see a similarity "
As far as I know the only MPs who have held or attempted to hold the British Government to ransom over brexit has been the DUP (same ones as have closed down the NI Assembly and the brexit hardliners like JRM and BoJo. But I could be wrong on this, so maybe you can name some remainers who have attempted or threatened to bring down the Government or oust the PM.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"AH right bit like remainer mp,s putting up all sorts of smokescreens to get what they want.Yes can see a similarity As far as I know the only MPs who have held or attempted to hold the British Government to ransom over brexit has been the DUP (same ones as have closed down the NI Assembly and the brexit hardliners like JRM and BoJo. But I could be wrong on this, so maybe you can name some remainers who have attempted or threatened to bring down the Government or oust the PM."
.
John MacDonald tweeted a few years back that conservatives should be harassed everywhere they go,I actually agree with him, I just also think that labour should be harassed everywhere they go as well.
The elites, newspaper editors, journalists, high up civil servants, CEOs, the CBI, politicians and sadly alot of the education system in general have been traitors for decades, it is the nature of capitalism and the bromance of the educated. |
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"Just thinking about some of the complaints through the last two year, I wonder if we could reinvent our system...
Proportional Representation. I think the referendum inspired lots of people to vote, not because they cared particularly about the EU but because their vote mattered. I also think given UKIP were the “protest” vote which helped take us to the referendum they should have possibly had more voice during the last few years but were possibly not voted for in 2017 as a Europe protest vote was no longer needed even if you agreed with their views.
House chooses the key executive. I think May was chosen as PM by the tories due to party politics (uniting them lol) rather than being the wider political considerations. Certainly her being a remainer has cause issues. Likewise I think she’s been seen to load the government with remainers.
The house (and only the house) votes. It’s been a while since HOL bashing but should only our representatives (now a better rep as PR) vote?
Id like to get rid of our two party politics too as it doesn’t allow enough variety in voice. Particularly if the two main parties agree on something. Maybe PR will encourage a greater range.
Would this have made us more democratic?
I think the HOC should remain constituency, with the HOL being a smaller chamber (say 300?) but using PR from the general election. Also, it shouldn't be 'Lords'.
That way, there's only one election, so no extra cost involved. And parties cannot fill the house of lords with their cronies, nor put them in as some kind of reward.
"
That's not a bad idea. However, if you really don't want party cronies in the second chamber, filling it with effectively with party loyalist based on a party list (which is what most PR systems do) is probably not the way forward.
For HOC I think it's important that MPs remain answerable to their constituents. PR further pulls an MP's loyalty away from their constituents and further towards the party (the party decides the list of candidates and the order of priority on the list of the candidates).
We definitely need to do something about better representation of the people but let's not look for another quick fix, silver bullet. The voting systemis no more the cause of all, or even many or any, of our problems than the EU is.
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"The Brexit debate has shown what an unbalanced mess the UK is constitutionally, with the legal rows about which powers returning from Brussels are reserved and devolved.
I'd like to see a constitutional convention established with a view to a new Act of Union, setting out an equitable framework for four autonomous nations that come together in a federal system for matters of common interest.
I dont think its the system as much as the MPs for eg both partys said they would honor the referendum and its the mps who are going against what they were elected for.I think they should be stripped of there jobs and made to pay their wages and expenses back if they dont do what they were elected for. "
They are elected to do what they believe is in the best interests of the country and their constituents. I believe most are actually trying to do that.
With regards to BREXIT, which MPs should be stripped of there jobs and made to pay their wages; those that vote for May's BREXIT deal or those that vote against?
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"For HOC I think it's important that MPs remain answerable to their constituents. PR further pulls an MP's loyalty away from their constituents and further towards the party (the party decides the list of candidates and the order of priority on the list of the candidates)."
I have heard that argument before and it has some merit if MPs are primarily answerable to their constituents. But they are not, first and foremost they are answerable to their party central office who select those they allow to go forward for constituency selection as a candidate, then the local party get to choose who they want from the list of those given to them by the central party. Only then do the electorate get a choice, and to be honest can anyone name an MP who puts their constituents interests before either their party or personal interests? (I can't.)
And even if it could be shown that there is a disconnect between voters and representatives with a party list system, by having 5 seat constituencies with a 60/40% or 80/20% split between those directly elected and those from a party list (with the party leaders and potential government positions being filled from the party lists) not only are your concerns more than adequately addressed, no constituency finds itself effectively loosing its MP because they have been selected to fill a government office. Because like it or not Mrs May and her cabinet have no time to deal with constituents queries or requests for assistance, they are far too busy managing or mismanaging (depending on your politics) the country (and the same applies to any government). |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
Simple solution....Make it compulsory to vote in General Elections and Referendums.
That way you are all but guaranteed to see the REAL current view of the electorate.
PR might well be another way forward. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Simple solution....Make it compulsory to vote in General Elections and Referendums.
That way you are all but guaranteed to see the REAL current view of the electorate.
PR might well be another way forward."
Its compulsory in austria i know that as was seeing a bird from there and she had to vote. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"Simple solution....Make it compulsory to vote in General Elections and Referendums.
That way you are all but guaranteed to see the REAL current view of the electorate.
PR might well be another way forward."
To see the REAL view of the electorate, shouldn't there be a "None of the above" option?  |
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"To see the REAL view of the electorate, shouldn't there be a "None of the above" option? "
I'm all for this and compulsory voting. But this will not happen. Politicians know that if there was a 'None of the above' option then many seats would be empty. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Voting ought to be an affirmative action.
"None of the above" is a negative action.
The option already exists, anyway - just spoil your ballot paper.
"
True .i think if they call for another referendum everyone should spoil their paper i know that would never happen but would show the politicians what the country thinks of them. |
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"Voting ought to be an affirmative action.
"None of the above" is a negative action.
The option already exists, anyway - just spoil your ballot paper.
"
Have you ever been to a count Sara?
If you have you know the lengths candidates, scrutinisers and election officials go to discount spoilt papers as 'mistakes'. Have you ever wondered why this is? |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"To see the REAL view of the electorate, shouldn't there be a "None of the above" option?
I'm all for this and compulsory voting. But this will not happen. Politicians know that if there was a 'None of the above' option then many seats would be empty."
There would probably be a better job done if there were! |
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"Voting ought to be an affirmative action.
"None of the above" is a negative action.
The option already exists, anyway - just spoil your ballot paper.
Have you ever been to a count Sara?
If you have you know the lengths candidates, scrutinisers and election officials go to discount spoilt papers as 'mistakes'. Have you ever wondered why this is?"
I have been to many counts and it's true candidates, scrutineers and officials go to great lengths to try to work out who a person actually meant to vote for when they've not simply put a X next to one candidate. I don't believe there is anything particularly sinister about that.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"Voting ought to be an affirmative action.
"None of the above" is a negative action.
The option already exists, anyway - just spoil your ballot paper.
Have you ever been to a count Sara?
If you have you know the lengths candidates, scrutinisers and election officials go to discount spoilt papers as 'mistakes'. Have you ever wondered why this is?"
I have been to a count. But I have never "spoiled" a ballot paper, nor have I seen one.
i guess if you want to cast a vote, but don't want to support any candidate, you could leave it blank?
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"i guess if you want to cast a vote, but don't want to support any candidate, you could leave it blank?
"
Next time there is an election and you are listening to the returning officer declare the results listen carefully to the final part of the deceleration. There are 2 types of spoilt ballots, those that are mistakenly spoilt (they can be ignored) and those deliberately spoilt. They are never ignored because they represent people who are not just passively suppressed to the point they no longer vote, but deliberately spoilt votes are a sign that people are so disaffected they are actively making that disaffection known. Such people trigger revolutions by the passively suppressed if they become aware of open acts of disaffection. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"i guess if you want to cast a vote, but don't want to support any candidate, you could leave it blank?
Next time there is an election and you are listening to the returning officer declare the results listen carefully to the final part of the deceleration. There are 2 types of spoilt ballots, those that are mistakenly spoilt (they can be ignored) and those deliberately spoilt. They are never ignored because they represent people who are not just passively suppressed to the point they no longer vote, but deliberately spoilt votes are a sign that people are so disaffected they are actively making that disaffection known. Such people trigger revolutions by the passively suppressed if they become aware of open acts of disaffection."
YOu make the point"if you listen"well 99% of people do not listen so it would not cause any revolution as nobody takes any notice.All people are interested is who won.Most do the same as me,go to bed and put the telly or radio on in the morning to get the result |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Voting ought to be an affirmative action.
"None of the above" is a negative action.
The option already exists, anyway - just spoil your ballot paper.
True .i think if they call for another referendum everyone should spoil their paper i know that would never happen but would show the politicians what the country thinks of them."
Great idea  |
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"YOu make the point"if you listen"well 99% of people do not listen so it would not cause any revolution as nobody takes any notice.All people are interested is who won.Most do the same as me,go to bed and put the telly or radio on in the morning to get the result"
The point is that when the number is in single figures then it goes unnoticed. But should that number hit multiples of 10 or even 3 figures then suddenly it would be noticed and inspire others to also become active rather than stay passive.
It take relatively little to turn a nonevent into news headlines. |
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