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Have the core values been broken by the uk, and other eu member countries.
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Respect- Human dignity - Freedom - Democracy - Equality and the rule of law - Liberty. is the state of being free within society, free from oppression restrictions, imposed by authority on ones behaviour or political views.
The goals of the European Union are.
Promote peace, its values and the well-being of its citizens.
Offer freedom, security and justice within internal boarders.
What do you call a government that ignores a democratic vote of its people. And has deprived a citizen of their civil liberties and rights.
Enlighten this old git.
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Respect- Human dignity - Freedom - Democracy - Equality and the rule of law - Liberty. is the state of being free within society, free from oppression restrictions, imposed by authority on ones behaviour or political views.
The goals of the European Union are.
Promote peace, its values and the well-being of its citizens.
Offer freedom, security and justice within internal boarders.
What do you call a government that ignores a democratic vote of its people. And has deprived a citizen of their civil liberties and rights.
Enlighten this old git.
"
Odd post.
You'll need to define:
What democratic vote has been ignored?
What civil liberties and rights have been denied or restricted? |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Respect- Human dignity - Freedom - Democracy - Equality and the rule of law - Liberty. is the state of being free within society, free from oppression restrictions, imposed by authority on ones behaviour or political views.
The goals of the European Union are.
Promote peace, its values and the well-being of its citizens.
Offer freedom, security and justice within internal boarders.
What do you call a government that ignores a democratic vote of its people. And has deprived a citizen of their civil liberties and rights.
Enlighten this old git.
"
Well this country is in my view not democratic at the moment which saddens me as I am a democrat.I assume this is what your referring to.
The EU is not democratic either worrying times. |
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"Respect- Human dignity - Freedom - Democracy - Equality and the rule of law - Liberty. is the state of being free within society, free from oppression restrictions, imposed by authority on ones behaviour or political views.
The goals of the European Union are.
Promote peace, its values and the well-being of its citizens.
Offer freedom, security and justice within internal boarders.
What do you call a government that ignores a democratic vote of its people. And has deprived a citizen of their civil liberties and rights.
Enlighten this old git.
Well this country is in my view not democratic at the moment which saddens me as I am a democrat.I assume this is what your referring to.
The EU is not democratic either worrying times."
Bingo, Well done, I am not alone in smelling the coffee. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Respect- Human dignity - Freedom - Democracy - Equality and the rule of law - Liberty. is the state of being free within society, free from oppression restrictions, imposed by authority on ones behaviour or political views.
The goals of the European Union are.
Promote peace, its values and the well-being of its citizens.
Offer freedom, security and justice within internal boarders.
What do you call a government that ignores a democratic vote of its people. And has deprived a citizen of their civil liberties and rights.
Enlighten this old git.
Well this country is in my view not democratic at the moment which saddens me as I am a democrat.I assume this is what your referring to.
The EU is not democratic either worrying times.Bingo, Well done, I am not alone in smelling the coffee."
This seems overtly simplistic. If you answered the question above people may be able to give their views.
About the vote and civil liberties and rights that have been 'deprived.' |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yes I would say so. Especially when the UN criticised the uk for having the worst disparity for rich n poor, and the treatment of the poor and vulnerable by this government, based on ideology rather than essential economic logic then yes |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Respect- Human dignity - Freedom - Democracy - Equality and the rule of law - Liberty. is the state of being free within society, free from oppression restrictions, imposed by authority on ones behaviour or political views.
The goals of the European Union are.
Promote peace, its values and the well-being of its citizens.
Offer freedom, security and justice within internal boarders.
What do you call a government that ignores a democratic vote of its people. And has deprived a citizen of their civil liberties and rights.
Enlighten this old git.
Well this country is in my view not democratic at the moment which saddens me as I am a democrat.I assume this is what your referring to.
The EU is not democratic either worrying times.Bingo, Well done, I am not alone in smelling the coffee."
This is confirmation bias at its weirdest.
It appears that you were just looking for someone to confirm your belief.
You still haven't defined the question.
Would you mind? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes I would say so. Especially when the UN criticised the uk for having the worst disparity for rich n poor, and the treatment of the poor and vulnerable by this government, based on ideology rather than essential economic logic then yes"
Wouldn't voting the government out be the first and best action? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'm having this conversation with my brothers and my lad at the moment. They moan that the referendum was rigged. OK I think. Tell me
Were you coerced into voting remain or Were you coerced into voting leave. Was there someone outside the polling station when you got there that made you vote either way. In what way was information put to you that was one point of view or the other. Were you not able to make up your own mind as to which was good information or bad information. I certainly didn't feel threatened or made to think one way or other. I had perfect free will to vote remain and when we lost I was happy to accept the result.
But I find it so disappointing that people don't think like me. I just think it's not right and makes me very worried for the future. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'm having this conversation with my brothers and my lad at the moment. They moan that the referendum was rigged. OK I think. Tell me
Were you coerced into voting remain or Were you coerced into voting leave. Was there someone outside the polling station when you got there that made you vote either way. In what way was information put to you that was one point of view or the other. Were you not able to make up your own mind as to which was good information or bad information. I certainly didn't feel threatened or made to think one way or other. I had perfect free will to vote remain and when we lost I was happy to accept the result.
But I find it so disappointing that people don't think like me. I just think it's not right and makes me very worried for the future."
I think it boils down to politicians abdicating their responsibilities.
Referendums are kind of against how our political system works.
We elect politicians to act in our best interests so they should really making these decisions.
I mean what would happen if we had a vote to abolish tax or bring back the death sentence. I think we all know the answer. |
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"Respect- Human dignity - Freedom - Democracy - Equality and the rule of law - Liberty. is the state of being free within society, free from oppression restrictions, imposed by authority on ones behaviour or political views.
The goals of the European Union are.
Promote peace, its values and the well-being of its citizens.
Offer freedom, security and justice within internal boarders.
What do you call a government that ignores a democratic vote of its people. And has deprived a citizen of their civil liberties and rights.
Enlighten this old git.
Well this country is in my view not democratic at the moment which saddens me as I am a democrat.I assume this is what your referring to.
The EU is not democratic either worrying times.Bingo, Well done, I am not alone in smelling the coffee.
This seems overtly simplistic. If you answered the question above people may be able to give their views.
About the vote and civil liberties and rights that have been 'deprived.'"
I was asking can you enlighten this old git. What do you call a government who ignores a democratic majority vote of the people.
As for a violation of a persons civil liberties. As the previous paragraph. And !!! Do you own research off Melanie Shaw. I hope that you can see the wood for the trees when doing so. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Respect- Human dignity - Freedom - Democracy - Equality and the rule of law - Liberty. is the state of being free within society, free from oppression restrictions, imposed by authority on ones behaviour or political views.
The goals of the European Union are.
Promote peace, its values and the well-being of its citizens.
Offer freedom, security and justice within internal boarders.
What do you call a government that ignores a democratic vote of its people. And has deprived a citizen of their civil liberties and rights.
Enlighten this old git.
Well this country is in my view not democratic at the moment which saddens me as I am a democrat.I assume this is what your referring to.
The EU is not democratic either worrying times.Bingo, Well done, I am not alone in smelling the coffee.
This seems overtly simplistic. If you answered the question above people may be able to give their views.
About the vote and civil liberties and rights that have been 'deprived.'I was asking can you enlighten this old git. What do you call a government who ignores a democratic majority vote of the people.
As for a violation of a persons civil liberties. As the previous paragraph. And !!! Do you own research off Melanie Shaw. I hope that you can see the wood for the trees when doing so."
I'll look into it....You do realise the referendum was non binding and have you ever trusted politicians before? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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In the EU elections of 2014 UKIP received 27% of the popular vote and got 24 seats out of 73 (33%)
Contrast that to the 2015 General election where UKIP got 12.6% of the vote and 1 of 650 seats (0.15%) which system would you say is fairer or more democratic? |
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"I'm having this conversation with my brothers and my lad at the moment. They moan that the referendum was rigged. OK I think. Tell me
Were you coerced into voting remain or Were you coerced into voting leave. Was there someone outside the polling station when you got there that made you vote either way. In what way was information put to you that was one point of view or the other. Were you not able to make up your own mind as to which was good information or bad information. I certainly didn't feel threatened or made to think one way or other. I had perfect free will to vote remain and when we lost I was happy to accept the result.
But I find it so disappointing that people don't think like me. I just think it's not right and makes me very worried for the future."
So are you happy that the Good Friday agreement will become null and void when a hard border is imposed in NI? |
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"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic."
They support Spain's violent crushing of the Catalan people's desire for independence for one |
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"I'm having this conversation with my brothers and my lad at the moment. They moan that the referendum was rigged. OK I think. Tell me
Were you coerced into voting remain or Were you coerced into voting leave. Was there someone outside the polling station when you got there that made you vote either way. In what way was information put to you that was one point of view or the other. Were you not able to make up your own mind as to which was good information or bad information. I certainly didn't feel threatened or made to think one way or other. I had perfect free will to vote remain and when we lost I was happy to accept the result.
But I find it so disappointing that people don't think like me. I just think it's not right and makes me very worried for the future."
my mind was made up all those years back when I voted against joining the so called common market .we were told this federal state of Europe would surface in years to come . nothing has happened to ever change my mind about the EU . it never will . I would vote leave time and time again .. At least you show some respect to the 2016 result .its a great pity a lot still don't though . that's why this country is the mess it is .thanks to all the doom and gloom mongerers,the elite,the businessmen ,the crap politicians ,a governor of the bank of England who predicts nothing but misery ,a weasel like Tony Blair who constantly sticks his nose in things when he has an awful lot to answer for.ie He subjected this country to a war nobody wanted ,he allowed our borders to be opened up so any tom ,dick and harry could come here . he has always had am ulterior motive to become EU president one day .he is all about himself not the people of this country .now he won't answer as to who has bankrolled him since his PM days . its time to stop messing about .get the job done and stop this tomfoolery |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" nothing has happened to ever change my mind about the EU . it never will . I would vote leave time and time again "
This says it all really. Doesn’t matter how shit it gets, you’d vote to send the country down the shitter.
Don’t facts and information matter to you at all? |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Who did you vote for in the last election? out of interest? "
I held my nose and voted Labour, even though my politics are further to the left of them. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected. "
Right, and we don't elect the cabinet. What is your point?
-Matt |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Right, and we don't elect the cabinet. What is your point?
-Matt"
But we do elect MPs.... |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Right, and we don't elect the cabinet. What is your point?
-Matt
But we do elect MPs...."
Yes, and we elect MEPs. What is your point?
-Matt |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
FFS:
he European Commission (EC) is an institution of the European Union, responsible for proposing legislation, implementing decisions, upholding the EU treaties and managing the day-to-day business of the EU.[2] Commissioners swear an oath at the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg City, pledging to respect the treaties and to be completely independent in carrying out their duties during their mandate.[3] Unlike in the Council of the European Union, where members are directly and indirectly elected, and the European Parliament, where members are directly elected, the Commissioners are appointed by the European Council and confirmed by the European Parliament. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Right, and we don't elect the cabinet. What is your point?
-Matt
But we do elect MPs....
Yes, and we elect MEPs. What is your point?
-Matt"
Oh fuck really....
We are just in from a lovely dinner in Playa Blanca (Lanzarote) and some Norwegian people were asking us what on Earth is going on in the U.K. - this little exchange encapsulated my response lol |
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By *ild_oatsMan
over a year ago
the land of saints & sinners |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
They support Spain's violent cruel shing of the Catalan people's desire for independence for one"
Actually the European Union maintain their position that independence of Catalonia is strictly a matter for Madrid.
By remaining neutral is not supporting.
The independence referendum was ruled unconstitutional by Spain’s top court.
But that does not explain how the Institutions of the European Union are undemocratic.
Try again....
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By *ild_oatsMan
over a year ago
the land of saints & sinners |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected. "
Obviously you don’t understand the structures of the EU.
It helps if you know how something works first before making statements like that. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Frankly, im disappointed in all the politicians.
I thought brexit would have been handled in a dignified and cordially conducted way. way.
Instead we have a shambolic shit fest with scant regard for the Good Friday Agreement on all sides. Its all absolutely ridiculous!
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Obviously you don’t understand the structures of the EU.
It helps if you know how something works first before making statements like that."
I cleared it up for you above.
Reverting to the standard Remainer argument of "Brexiteers are stupid" again.
For a full bingo card, call us all racists and have done with it. |
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"Frankly, im disappointed in all the politicians.
I thought brexit would have been handled in a dignified and cordially conducted way. way.
Instead we have a shambolic shit fest with scant regard for the Good Friday Agreement on all sides. Its all absolutely ridiculous!
"
agree..
my major concern before the vote was that i just could not see them sorting out something so complicated in the space of time being spoken about..
even on here then when saying that it should be a cross party issue as regardless of the vote it had to appeal to all, the sad response after was you lost shut up..
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"FFS:
he European Commission (EC) is an institution of the European Union, responsible for proposing legislation, implementing decisions, upholding the EU treaties and managing the day-to-day business of the EU.[2] Commissioners swear an oath at the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg City, pledging to respect the treaties and to be completely independent in carrying out their duties during their mandate.[3] Unlike in the Council of the European Union, where members are directly and indirectly elected, and the European Parliament, where members are directly elected, the Commissioners are appointed by the European Council and confirmed by the European Parliament. "
I'm still not sure what your point is.
The European Parliament is elected
The Council of Ministers is elected
The European Commission is not elected
The European Parliament approves the Commission's members
-Matt |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Right, and we don't elect the cabinet. What is your point?
-Matt
But we do elect MPs....
Yes, and we elect MEPs. What is your point?
-Matt
Oh fuck really....
We are just in from a lovely dinner in Playa Blanca (Lanzarote) and some Norwegian people were asking us what on Earth is going on in the U.K. - this little exchange encapsulated my response lol"
Of course that would be the Norway that voted not to join the EEC, CM or EU. Funny how no rich countries want to join the EU but plenty of poor ones do |
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By *ild_oatsMan
over a year ago
the land of saints & sinners |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Obviously you don’t understand the structures of the EU.
It helps if you know how something works first before making statements like that.
I cleared it up for you above.
Reverting to the standard Remainer argument of "Brexiteers are stupid" again.
For a full bingo card, call us all racists and have done with it. "
All you did was cut and paste what the EU structures are without understanding them.
The EU commission is not meant to be directly elected.
They are an independent body who's job is to think European and not be swayed by the interests of their home state. That's the role of your MEP and the council of ministers.
An equivalent would be all the commissions and independent bodies the UK Government appoints to look at areas of law, public services etc.
Example - Keith Williams was appointed by the UK government to look at rail franchises .... Are you suggesting that we should have a direct election of him.
The EU commissioners are proposed by Council of Ministers (heads of govenment of member states) - Known as indirectly elected as you voted or not for your government but maybe not the actual PrimeMinister.
These are then voted on by the EU parliament (MEP's) who you directly vote for.
By this process the EU Commissioners are actually more democratically accountable than UK government appointees.
Where actually is the lack of democracy ???
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"Maybe look at the election to Secretary General of Martin Selmayr earlier this year?
Then there's always the secrecy of MEP's expenses?
"
The Martin Selmayr episode was condemned by the EU's own watchdog. Fat lot of good it did though as Selmayr is still in his job. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Right, and we don't elect the cabinet. What is your point?
-Matt
But we do elect MPs....
Yes, and we elect MEPs. What is your point?
-Matt
Oh fuck really....
We are just in from a lovely dinner in Playa Blanca (Lanzarote) and some Norwegian people were asking us what on Earth is going on in the U.K. - this little exchange encapsulated my response lol
Of course that would be the Norway that voted not to join the EEC, CM or EU. Funny how no rich countries want to join the EU but plenty of poor ones do"
No rich countries want to join the EU? Is that because almost all are all already in it?
Out of the top 20 countries by GDP in Europe the only ones not in the EU are Norway, Switzerland and Russia. And Norway and Switzerland are in the EFTA
-Matt |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Right, and we don't elect the cabinet. What is your point?
-Matt
But we do elect MPs....
Yes, and we elect MEPs. What is your point?
-Matt
Oh fuck really....
We are just in from a lovely dinner in Playa Blanca (Lanzarote) and some Norwegian people were asking us what on Earth is going on in the U.K. - this little exchange encapsulated my response lol
Of course that would be the Norway that voted not to join the EEC, CM or EU. Funny how no rich countries want to join the EU but plenty of poor ones do
No rich countries want to join the EU? Is that because almost all are all already in it?
Out of the top 20 countries by GDP in Europe the only ones not in the EU are Norway, Switzerland and Russia. And Norway and Switzerland are in the EFTA
-Matt"
So ignoring russia which is never going to join, the two richest countries dont feel the need to join the EU yet are far smaller in gdp terms( by country) but the poor ones do, not hard to guess why either is it. |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Right, and we don't elect the cabinet. What is your point?
-Matt
But we do elect MPs....
Yes, and we elect MEPs. What is your point?
-Matt
Oh fuck really....
We are just in from a lovely dinner in Playa Blanca (Lanzarote) and some Norwegian people were asking us what on Earth is going on in the U.K. - this little exchange encapsulated my response lol
Of course that would be the Norway that voted not to join the EEC, CM or EU. Funny how no rich countries want to join the EU but plenty of poor ones do
No rich countries want to join the EU? Is that because almost all are all already in it?
Out of the top 20 countries by GDP in Europe the only ones not in the EU are Norway, Switzerland and Russia. And Norway and Switzerland are in the EFTA
-Matt
So ignoring russia which is never going to join, the two richest countries dont feel the need to join the EU yet are far smaller in gdp terms( by country) but the poor ones do, not hard to guess why either is it."
You've lost me now. Two richest countries? If you are going by GDP, Switzerland is 8th and Norway is 13th.
-Matt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Who did you vote for in the last election? out of interest?
I held my nose and voted Labour, even though my politics are further to the left of them. "
And whos in your corner...Farage, Johnson and that bastion of far left virtue Rees Mogg |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Obviously you don’t understand the structures of the EU.
It helps if you know how something works first before making statements like that.
I cleared it up for you above.
Reverting to the standard Remainer argument of "Brexiteers are stupid" again.
For a full bingo card, call us all racists and have done with it.
All you did was cut and paste what the EU structures are without understanding them.
The EU commission is not meant to be directly elected.
They are an independent body who's job is to think European and not be swayed by the interests of their home state. That's the role of your MEP and the council of ministers.
An equivalent would be all the commissions and independent bodies the UK Government appoints to look at areas of law, public services etc.
Example - Keith Williams was appointed by the UK government to look at rail franchises .... Are you suggesting that we should have a direct election of him.
The EU commissioners are proposed by Council of Ministers (heads of govenment of member states) - Known as indirectly elected as you voted or not for your government but maybe not the actual PrimeMinister.
These are then voted on by the EU parliament (MEP's) who you directly vote for.
By this process the EU Commissioners are actually more democratically accountable than UK government appointees.
Where actually is the lack of democracy ???
"
Good point |
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"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Who did you vote for in the last election? out of interest?
I held my nose and voted Labour, even though my politics are further to the left of them.
And whos in your corner...Farage, Johnson and that bastion of far left virtue Rees Mogg"
Plenty of political figures on the far left support Brexit, like Labour MP Dennis Skinner and George Galloway to give a couple of quick examples, and we all know Jeremy Corbyn is really a Brexiter and has been his whole life. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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May has delivered on the will of the people.
It looks like the EU will accept Mays proposal and so help deliver the will of the people (although some MEPs like farage have said they’d vote against it. Go figure)
The only thing which stand in the way of the will of the people is our parliament.
I’m not sure the EU can be blamed for that.
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Maybe look at the election to Secretary General of Martin Selmayr earlier this year?
Then there's always the secrecy of MEP's expenses?
The Martin Selmayr episode was condemned by the EU's own watchdog. Fat lot of good it did though as Selmayr is still in his job. "
We know. You keep repeating it.
Of course, you wouldn't know unless the EU had reported it.
We wouldn't have known about the UK expenses scandal unless a newspaper had run an investigation?
What's your actual point? European politics is dirtier than UK politics? Who are you trying to kid?  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Maybe look at the election to Secretary General of Martin Selmayr earlier this year?
Then there's always the secrecy of MEP's expenses?
The Martin Selmayr episode was condemned by the EU's own watchdog. Fat lot of good it did though as Selmayr is still in his job.
We know. You keep repeating it.
Of course, you wouldn't know unless the EU had reported it.
We wouldn't have known about the UK expenses scandal unless a newspaper had run an investigation?
What's your actual point? European politics is dirtier than UK politics? Who are you trying to kid? "
What we neee is nice clean uk politics when a party circumvents it’s own rules to get a former leader of the EDL into its inner circle when they’re not even allowed to be a member of the party.  |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Respect- Human dignity - Freedom - Democracy - Equality and the rule of law - Liberty. is the state of being free within society, free from oppression restrictions, imposed by authority on ones behaviour or political views.
The goals of the European Union are.
Promote peace, its values and the well-being of its citizens.
Offer freedom, security and justice within internal boarders.
What do you call a government that ignores a democratic vote of its people. And has deprived a citizen of their civil liberties and rights.
Enlighten this old git.
Well this country is in my view not democratic at the moment which saddens me as I am a democrat.I assume this is what your referring to.
The EU is not democratic either worrying times.Bingo, Well done, I am not alone in smelling the coffee.
This seems overtly simplistic. If you answered the question above people may be able to give their views.
About the vote and civil liberties and rights that have been 'deprived.'I was asking can you enlighten this old git. What do you call a government who ignores a democratic majority vote of the people.
As for a violation of a persons civil liberties. As the previous paragraph. And !!! Do you own research off Melanie Shaw. I hope that you can see the wood for the trees when doing so."
Are you talking about the EU referendum vote?
How has it been ignored? What do you think has been happening for the last two years? Attention has not been on improving education, the NHS or Policing has it? |
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"Maybe look at the election to Secretary General of Martin Selmayr earlier this year?
Then there's always the secrecy of MEP's expenses?
The Martin Selmayr episode was condemned by the EU's own watchdog. Fat lot of good it did though as Selmayr is still in his job.
We know. You keep repeating it.
"
I'm inclined to keep on repeating it as it clearly annoys you every time I mention it. |
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Vague point being made? Which EU member state? Which actions etc? Each country has their own sovereignty, with parliamentary bodies implementing legislation that it has created in alignment to EU agreements.
In the EU the op may be criticising any one country or the body as a whole, but he said nothing specific in his opening post |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Guys, let’s just all agree EFTA is the only solution to our problems.
Democracy, true democracy would require a people’s vote on every piece of major legislation that comes through the door.
In Switzerland they do that.
The UK is based on a political system which is unrepresentative of the people it serves.
Someone said to me how can you have a decision which only half of the people support?.
Binary choices are stupid. Choose one or the other, it’s an affront to true democratic principals.
When there is a another referendum, it’s should not be on what had already been decided it should be on the three choices.
Personally, I don’t want the UK to have a 2nd Civil War, but I know that both hard exit and remain are both unworkable as concepts.
So leaves three choices
TM’s Deal - worst of all worlds, indefinite twilight Deal.
Canada - Can forge trade deals, Can have access to single market, but not part of single market, subject to restriction of travel in the EU.
Norway - The best economic deal can be part of single market, and forge trade deals. Could accept freedom movement but can argue against it. NI Ireland question and Gibraltar Question Are sorted.
We cannot fight the the decision which was made, but we must choose the type of departure we have.
Doesn’t that sound fair and democratic?
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Maybe look at the election to Secretary General of Martin Selmayr earlier this year?
Then there's always the secrecy of MEP's expenses?
The Martin Selmayr episode was condemned by the EU's own watchdog. Fat lot of good it did though as Selmayr is still in his job.
We know. You keep repeating it.
I'm inclined to keep on repeating it as it clearly annoys you every time I mention it. "
Nigel Farage said a 48:52 result would be unfinished business  |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Maybe look at the election to Secretary General of Martin Selmayr earlier this year?
Then there's always the secrecy of MEP's expenses?
The Martin Selmayr episode was condemned by the EU's own watchdog. Fat lot of good it did though as Selmayr is still in his job.
We know. You keep repeating it.
I'm inclined to keep on repeating it as it clearly annoys you every time I mention it. "
How about this one? If we take WTO rules on hard Brexit would the UK Supreme Court have sovereign jurisdiction over trade disputes? |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Guys, let’s just all agree EFTA is the only solution to our problems.
Democracy, true democracy would require a people’s vote on every piece of major legislation that comes through the door.
In Switzerland they do that.
The UK is based on a political system which is unrepresentative of the people it serves.
Someone said to me how can you have a decision which only half of the people support?.
Binary choices are stupid. Choose one or the other, it’s an affront to true democratic principals.
When there is a another referendum, it’s should not be on what had already been decided it should be on the three choices.
Personally, I don’t want the UK to have a 2nd Civil War, but I know that both hard exit and remain are both unworkable as concepts.
So leaves three choices
TM’s Deal - worst of all worlds, indefinite twilight Deal.
Canada - Can forge trade deals, Can have access to single market, but not part of single market, subject to restriction of travel in the EU.
Norway - The best economic deal can be part of single market, and forge trade deals. Could accept freedom movement but can argue against it. NI Ireland question and Gibraltar Question Are sorted.
We cannot fight the the decision which was made, but we must choose the type of departure we have.
Doesn’t that sound fair and democratic?
"
Not if the majority of the population now want none of these options.
We should have started on this line two years ago. Actually deciding on a plan or something... |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Obviously you don’t understand the structures of the EU.
It helps if you know how something works first before making statements like that.
I cleared it up for you above.
Reverting to the standard Remainer argument of "Brexiteers are stupid" again.
For a full bingo card, call us all racists and have done with it.
All you did was cut and paste what the EU structures are without understanding them.
The EU commission is not meant to be directly elected.
They are an independent body who's job is to think European and not be swayed by the interests of their home state. That's the role of your MEP and the council of ministers.
An equivalent would be all the commissions and independent bodies the UK Government appoints to look at areas of law, public services etc.
Example - Keith Williams was appointed by the UK government to look at rail franchises .... Are you suggesting that we should have a direct election of him.
The EU commissioners are proposed by Council of Ministers (heads of govenment of member states) - Known as indirectly elected as you voted or not for your government but maybe not the actual PrimeMinister.
These are then voted on by the EU parliament (MEP's) who you directly vote for.
By this process the EU Commissioners are actually more democratically accountable than UK government appointees.
Where actually is the lack of democracy ???
"
Oh, it's not meant to be elected.
That's fine then, isn't it. |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Right, and we don't elect the cabinet. What is your point?
-Matt
But we do elect MPs....
Yes, and we elect MEPs. What is your point?
-Matt"
Commissioners don't have to be MEPs.... |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Right, and we don't elect the cabinet. What is your point?
-Matt
But we do elect MPs....
Yes, and we elect MEPs. What is your point?
-Matt
Oh fuck really....
We are just in from a lovely dinner in Playa Blanca (Lanzarote) and some Norwegian people were asking us what on Earth is going on in the U.K. - this little exchange encapsulated my response lol
Of course that would be the Norway that voted not to join the EEC, CM or EU. Funny how no rich countries want to join the EU but plenty of poor ones do"
Real people live in these generic countries of which you speak. Real people who think, have opinions and who are allowed to voice them. I am not quite sure what your point is. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Guys, let’s just all agree EFTA is the only solution to our problems.
Democracy, true democracy would require a people’s vote on every piece of major legislation that comes through the door.
In Switzerland they do that.
The UK is based on a political system which is unrepresentative of the people it serves.
Someone said to me how can you have a decision which only half of the people support?.
Binary choices are stupid. Choose one or the other, it’s an affront to true democratic principals.
When there is a another referendum, it’s should not be on what had already been decided it should be on the three choices.
Personally, I don’t want the UK to have a 2nd Civil War, but I know that both hard exit and remain are both unworkable as concepts.
So leaves three choices
TM’s Deal - worst of all worlds, indefinite twilight Deal.
Canada - Can forge trade deals, Can have access to single market, but not part of single market, subject to restriction of travel in the EU.
Norway - The best economic deal can be part of single market, and forge trade deals. Could accept freedom movement but can argue against it. NI Ireland question and Gibraltar Question Are sorted.
We cannot fight the the decision which was made, but we must choose the type of departure we have.
Doesn’t that sound fair and democratic?
"
Not really, no.
Theresa May’s “Deal” is about our withdrawal from the EU.
Future Norway/Canada trading deals are things for the future when we have actually left and it becomes time to talk about trade. |
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By *ild_oatsMan
over a year ago
the land of saints & sinners |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Obviously you don’t understand the structures of the EU.
It helps if you know how something works first before making statements like that.
I cleared it up for you above.
Reverting to the standard Remainer argument of "Brexiteers are stupid" again.
For a full bingo card, call us all racists and have done with it.
All you did was cut and paste what the EU structures are without understanding them.
The EU commission is not meant to be directly elected.
They are an independent body who's job is to think European and not be swayed by the interests of their home state. That's the role of your MEP and the council of ministers.
An equivalent would be all the commissions and independent bodies the UK Government appoints to look at areas of law, public services etc.
Example - Keith Williams was appointed by the UK government to look at rail franchises .... Are you suggesting that we should have a direct election of him.
The EU commissioners are proposed by Council of Ministers (heads of govenment of member states) - Known as indirectly elected as you voted or not for your government but maybe not the actual PrimeMinister.
These are then voted on by the EU parliament (MEP's) who you directly vote for.
By this process the EU Commissioners are actually more democratically accountable than UK government appointees.
Where actually is the lack of democracy ???
Oh, it's not meant to be elected.
That's fine then, isn't it. "
Are you suggesting that we should now vote for the person the UK government appoints to any review body or commission here.
The EU Commissioners are actually voted for by the MEP’s who you elect.
Unlike UK government appointments where MP’s don’t get to vote.
Guess which system is more democratically accountable.... ??? |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.
The comission is unelected.
Right, and we don't elect the cabinet. What is your point?
-Matt
But we do elect MPs....
Yes, and we elect MEPs. What is your point?
-Matt
Commissioners don't have to be MEPs...."
And the MEPs elect the commissioners. What is your point?
-Matt |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Respect- Human dignity - Freedom - Democracy - Equality and the rule of law - Liberty. is the state of being free within society, free from oppression restrictions, imposed by authority on ones behaviour or political views.
The goals of the European Union are.
Promote peace, its values and the well-being of its citizens.
Offer freedom, security and justice within internal boarders.
What do you call a government that ignores a democratic vote of its people. And has deprived a citizen of their civil liberties and rights.
Enlighten this old git.
Well this country is in my view not democratic at the moment which saddens me as I am a democrat.I assume this is what your referring to.
The EU is not democratic either worrying times.Bingo, Well done, I am not alone in smelling the coffee.
This seems overtly simplistic. If you answered the question above people may be able to give their views.
About the vote and civil liberties and rights that have been 'deprived.'I was asking can you enlighten this old git. What do you call a government who ignores a democratic majority vote of the people.
As for a violation of a persons civil liberties. As the previous paragraph. And !!! Do you own research off Melanie Shaw. I hope that you can see the wood for the trees when doing so."
Nope.... but I will give you official statistics, in the ECJ, they side with the uk government 97% of all decisions made
I bet if you have/had a partner you would not agree with them as much of the time
So if you are saying that the EU is against civil liberties then you are also saying that by proxy that the UK government is also against civil liberties!!!
Is that what you are getting at?  |
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"Is there any difference between a Commissioner nominated by a member state and a Minister of the UK Government appointed from the House of Lords?"
Not if one looks at it objectively and with logic but that seems to be in short supply with some..
Ps, don't mention the quangos.. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"Maybe look at the election to Secretary General of Martin Selmayr earlier this year?
Then there's always the secrecy of MEP's expenses?
The Martin Selmayr episode was condemned by the EU's own watchdog. Fat lot of good it did though as Selmayr is still in his job.
We know. You keep repeating it.
I'm inclined to keep on repeating it as it clearly annoys you every time I mention it.
How about this one? If we take WTO rules on hard Brexit would the UK Supreme Court have sovereign jurisdiction over trade disputes? "
WTO has its own court to settle disputes.
It is down now to three judges - the minimum it can operate with - because Trump refuses to nominate a new one.
Lose one more judge and the WTO grinds to a halt. Trump in wrecking mode again. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Maybe look at the election to Secretary General of Martin Selmayr earlier this year?
Then there's always the secrecy of MEP's expenses?
The Martin Selmayr episode was condemned by the EU's own watchdog. Fat lot of good it did though as Selmayr is still in his job.
We know. You keep repeating it.
I'm inclined to keep on repeating it as it clearly annoys you every time I mention it.
How about this one? If we take WTO rules on hard Brexit would the UK Supreme Court have sovereign jurisdiction over trade disputes?
WTO has its own court to settle disputes.
It is down now to three judges - the minimum it can operate with - because Trump refuses to nominate a new one.
Lose one more judge and the WTO grinds to a halt. Trump in wrecking mode again."
"
Three judges are needed for each case and all 164 WTO members must comply with their rulings. The WTO normally has seven judges but after a U.S. campaign to block appointments and reappointments only 3 remained.
Almost 70 countries have repeatedly petitioned the United States to let the appointments go ahead. But a U.S. official again turned down their plea at WTO headquarters in Geneva.
Trump has blocked the appointment of judges at the WTO, which has now four vacant seats on its seven-seat Appellate Body, effectively the supreme court of world trade, leaving the bare minimum of three judges to rule on international disputes.
"What the United States really wants is to be judge and jury in all its disputes in the WTO involving the U.S. They want judges to rule in favor of the United States under threat of not being reappointed if they do not," Bacchus said.
Losing one more judge would undermine the entire world trading system, he added.
"It is shameful, it is inexcusable, it is not worthy of the United States of America... It is not worthy of the greatest dispute settlement system in the history of the world."
The most mind-boggling aspect of this is that the United States wins most of the dispute cases it files in WTO.
The Obama administration filed 26 complaints with the DSB and won all of those that went through the dispute settlement process.
Apparently unaware of this, Trump said in October 2017, “we lose the lawsuits, almost all of the lawsuits in the WTO, within the WTO. Because we have fewer judges than other countries. It’s set up as you can’t win. In other words, the panels are set up so that we don’t have majorities. It was set up for the benefit of taking advantage of the United States.”
The WTO has 164 members, but Trump seems to think the majority of its judges should be American. He also seems to think that American judges would always rule in favor of the United States.
The WTO is presiding over a record number of disputes, many of them triggered by Trump's tariffs on steel and aluminum and his trade war with China.
"
I didn't know about this but it's a nail in the coffin of the super duper WTO BREXIT some are chasing & lays bare how "well" Trump will treat us on trade.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Maybe look at the election to Secretary General of Martin Selmayr earlier this year?
Then there's always the secrecy of MEP's expenses?
The Martin Selmayr episode was condemned by the EU's own watchdog. Fat lot of good it did though as Selmayr is still in his job.
We know. You keep repeating it.
I'm inclined to keep on repeating it as it clearly annoys you every time I mention it.
How about this one? If we take WTO rules on hard Brexit would the UK Supreme Court have sovereign jurisdiction over trade disputes?
WTO has its own court to settle disputes.
It is down now to three judges - the minimum it can operate with - because Trump refuses to nominate a new one.
Lose one more judge and the WTO grinds to a halt. Trump in wrecking mode again."
Probably his plan! Considering WTO is relatively young - replaced the GATT regime it should not be screwed this way. The USA is powerful and it's currency is powerful, but so was the pound - once! The world needs to repell this dominance by a single country! |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Maybe look at the election to Secretary General of Martin Selmayr earlier this year?
Then there's always the secrecy of MEP's expenses?
The Martin Selmayr episode was condemned by the EU's own watchdog. Fat lot of good it did though as Selmayr is still in his job.
We know. You keep repeating it.
I'm inclined to keep on repeating it as it clearly annoys you every time I mention it.
How about this one? If we take WTO rules on hard Brexit would the UK Supreme Court have sovereign jurisdiction over trade disputes?
WTO has its own court to settle disputes.
It is down now to three judges - the minimum it can operate with - because Trump refuses to nominate a new one.
Lose one more judge and the WTO grinds to a halt. Trump in wrecking mode again."
Aw. You spoiled it. I wanted Centaur to answer.
Who am I kidding? |
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"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic."
How can anyone call a country democratic when the leaders are not voted in by the public
Anyone read 1984 As this is the way the EU is heading and if we stay in the unelected will make more and more rules for you to obey like good little sheep
On a side note Tony Blair is panicking as he thought he would have had a crack at being the President of a United States of Europe Hence all the moaning he is doing If anything the man should be in jail after the Iraq fiasco |
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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago
Barbados |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.How can anyone call a country democratic when the leaders are not voted in by the public
Anyone read 1984 As this is the way the EU is heading and if we stay in the unelected will make more and more rules for you to obey like good little sheep
On a side note Tony Blair is panicking as he thought he would have had a crack at being the President of a United States of Europe Hence all the moaning he is doing If anything the man should be in jail after the Iraq fiasco "
Why are you calling the UK undemocratic? Just because we have a representational democracy and vote a candidate for a party per constituency rather than directly elect via PR like we do our MEPs, does not make the UK undemocratic. Just slightly less democratic that the EU. But remember we had a referendum on making us more democratic and moving to a better voting mechanism, but people didn't want it as they thought counting to 5 would be too difficult.
-Matt |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.How can anyone call a country democratic when the leaders are not voted in by the public
Anyone read 1984 As this is the way the EU is heading and if we stay in the unelected will make more and more rules for you to obey like good little sheep
On a side note Tony Blair is panicking as he thought he would have had a crack at being the President of a United States of Europe Hence all the moaning he is doing If anything the man should be in jail after the Iraq fiasco "
You want to jail someone without due process? I don't recall him being found guilty of anything, despite the popular game of suggesting that he is a "war criminal" despite there being no evidence of this, nor of him being tried for such an offence.
Further, it also populist bullshit to suggest that suggest that Blair "wants to be President of Europe." There is no evidence of this, nor is there any evidence of the EU being in any way, even remotely similar to the work of fiction known as 1984.
You might want to read serious newspapers or try to recognise your own cognitive dissonance. Just because you want something to be true, doesn't mean that it is. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Are people seriously under the delusion that the EU is somehow democratic?
Explain exactly how the EU is undemocratic.How can anyone call a country democratic when the leaders are not voted in by the public
Anyone read 1984 As this is the way the EU is heading and if we stay in the unelected will make more and more rules for you to obey like good little sheep
On a side note Tony Blair is panicking as he thought he would have had a crack at being the President of a United States of Europe Hence all the moaning he is doing If anything the man should be in jail after the Iraq fiasco "
I think touch base with reality is important.
I’ve seen it more now than ever people are actually realising that all the lies spouted by those who would do us harm are now becoming worthless.
Like a virus, we are becoming immune to it. About time also  |
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