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Juncker Barnier and Tusk ?
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"Who are they" Just googled,I hate brexit | |||
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"Who are they Just googled,I hate brexit" Au fait with current affairs I see? | |||
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"Who are they Just googled,I hate brexit Au fait with current affairs I see?" I wish i didnt know who they were | |||
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"Who are they Just googled,I hate brexit Au fait with current affairs I see?" I turn the news off soon as it's mentioned | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio?" They are like the Marx brothers, 3 comedy clowns, all failed politicians in their home countries, unelected and appointed to Lord it over everyone in Europe from Brussels. Juncker is d*unk half the time, a bona fide hopeless alcoholic. | |||
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"my thoughts exactly so why are so many people in love with the EU when these creeps are in charge " The British are not in love with it, 17.4 million of us voted to leave. 
Europeans are falling out of love with it as well, as Eurosceptic parties are gaining more votes with each passing election. | |||
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"my thoughts exactly so why are so many people in love with the EU when these creeps are in charge The British are not in love with it, 17.4 million of us voted to leave.
Europeans are falling out of love with it as well, as Eurosceptic parties are gaining more votes with each passing election. "Yep i was one of them, but you would still think leaving is going to be the end of the world | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio?" They have proven to be very talented Politicians and Negotiators - as has very recently been demonstrated by their handling of the almighty and powerful United Kingdom. I know, I know - they are foreign and probably eat too much garlic and cheese, but you know. Sometimes you just have to give credit where credit is due. They saw ood David "thick as mince" Davis, Dominic "Geographically challenged" Raab and watching Theresa May on TV just now - they have probably seen her off as well. | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio? They are like the Marx brothers, 3 comedy clowns, all failed politicians in their home countries, unelected and appointed to Lord it over everyone in Europe from Brussels. Juncker is d*unk half the time, a bona fide hopeless alcoholic. " Although thus far history will using that thing called objectivity (which some on here seem to lack) judge them as lasting the course of the current negotiations better than Davis and Boris, maybe even Baker though not sure he was ever involved to any meaningful degree.. As to whether any side will be proven to have gotten all things right then we will all have to wait and see.. And Centy, the Marx brothers did OK at what they did but not sure about cousin Karl myself..  | |||
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"I wish i didnt know who they were" I wish we all knew and understood a lot more about the motivations these three extremely powerful individuals. | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio? They have proven to be very talented Politicians and Negotiators - as has very recently been demonstrated by their handling of the almighty and powerful United Kingdom. I know, I know - they are foreign and probably eat too much garlic and cheese, but you know. Sometimes you just have to give credit where credit is due. They saw ood David "thick as mince" Davis, Dominic "Geographically challenged" Raab and watching Theresa May on TV just now - they have probably seen her off as well. " May Rabb and Davis aren't exactly tough politicians  | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio? They have proven to be very talented Politicians and Negotiators - as has very recently been demonstrated by their handling of the almighty and powerful United Kingdom. I know, I know - they are foreign and probably eat too much garlic and cheese, but you know. Sometimes you just have to give credit where credit is due. They saw ood David "thick as mince" Davis, Dominic "Geographically challenged" Raab and watching Theresa May on TV just now - they have probably seen her off as well. May Rabb and Davis aren't exactly tough politicians "The point being is that despite all the bluster and bravado on the British side, we can look back on two years of disunity, mixed messages and ultimatelky failure of the British side. Barnier, Juncker and Tusk have remained unified, consistent and on track with the wishes and needs of the EU. I get it that English Entitlement means that it is almost impossible to offer credit to any foreign person who may have outwitted and/or outfoxed a true Brit - but actually. These three made the entire UK negotiating team look like the bunch of amateurs that they are. Never mind though - that was just the withdrawal agreement. We still have a pipe dream trade deal to Negotiate with the EU and let's not forget that countries all over the globe will be falling over themselves to do a trade deal with the UK that is weighted heavily in our favour and not their own. At least then we wont need talented people on the team. | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio? They have proven to be very talented Politicians and Negotiators - as has very recently been demonstrated by their handling of the almighty and powerful United Kingdom. I know, I know - they are foreign and probably eat too much garlic and cheese, but you know. Sometimes you just have to give credit where credit is due. They saw ood David "thick as mince" Davis, Dominic "Geographically challenged" Raab and watching Theresa May on TV just now - they have probably seen her off as well. May Rabb and Davis aren't exactly tough politicians
The point being is that despite all the bluster and bravado on the British side, we can look back on two years of disunity, mixed messages and ultimatelky failure of the British side.
Barnier, Juncker and Tusk have remained unified, consistent and on track with the wishes and needs of the EU.
I get it that English Entitlement means that it is almost impossible to offer credit to any foreign person who may have outwitted and/or outfoxed a true Brit - but actually. These three made the entire UK negotiating team look like the bunch of amateurs that they are.
Never mind though - that was just the withdrawal agreement. We still have a pipe dream trade deal to Negotiate with the EU and let's not forget that countries all over the globe will be falling over themselves to do a trade deal with the UK that is weighted heavily in our favour and not their own. At least then we wont need talented people on the team."Well, yes. Unfortunately i have to agree. | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio? They have proven to be very talented Politicians and Negotiators - as has very recently been demonstrated by their handling of the almighty and powerful United Kingdom. I know, I know - they are foreign and probably eat too much garlic and cheese, but you know. Sometimes you just have to give credit where credit is due. They saw ood David "thick as mince" Davis, Dominic "Geographically challenged" Raab and watching Theresa May on TV just now - they have probably seen her off as well. May Rabb and Davis aren't exactly tough politicians "At least they are directly elected by the people though which is more than can be said for Juncker, Tusk and Barnier. | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio? They have proven to be very talented Politicians and Negotiators - as has very recently been demonstrated by their handling of the almighty and powerful United Kingdom. I know, I know - they are foreign and probably eat too much garlic and cheese, but you know. Sometimes you just have to give credit where credit is due. They saw ood David "thick as mince" Davis, Dominic "Geographically challenged" Raab and watching Theresa May on TV just now - they have probably seen her off as well. May Rabb and Davis aren't exactly tough politicians
The point being is that despite all the bluster and bravado on the British side, we can look back on two years of disunity, mixed messages and ultimatelky failure of the British side.
Barnier, Juncker and Tusk have remained unified, consistent and on track with the wishes and needs of the EU.
I get it that English Entitlement means that it is almost impossible to offer credit to any foreign person who may have outwitted and/or outfoxed a true Brit - but actually. These three made the entire UK negotiating team look like the bunch of amateurs that they are.
Never mind though - that was just the withdrawal agreement. We still have a pipe dream trade deal to Negotiate with the EU and let's not forget that countries all over the globe will be falling over themselves to do a trade deal with the UK that is weighted heavily in our favour and not their own. At least then we wont need talented people on the team."The negotiations were a bit like sending your granny to sort out a bar room brawl!Theresa May was never up to the job, she had no belief in what she was doing, I could have done a better job of negotiating a deal! | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio? They have proven to be very talented Politicians and Negotiators - as has very recently been demonstrated by their handling of the almighty and powerful United Kingdom. I know, I know - they are foreign and probably eat too much garlic and cheese, but you know. Sometimes you just have to give credit where credit is due. They saw ood David "thick as mince" Davis, Dominic "Geographically challenged" Raab and watching Theresa May on TV just now - they have probably seen her off as well. May Rabb and Davis aren't exactly tough politicians
At least they are directly elected by the people though which is more than can be said for Juncker, Tusk and Barnier. "I know that Barnier served as a Minister in the French Government, I think. He acted as the agent for the EU27 - 27 democratically elected leaders of 27 sovereign states. No more or less legitimate than, say, the UK ambassador at the UN. | |||
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"I don't know much about the other two, but from what I've seen of Mr Barnier he has been very dignified, consistent and calm. I did not notice either of Messrs Raab and Davies giving interviews in a foreign language. In fact, the ones they gave in their own language were not very good. " Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt have done interviews in Europe in foreign languages, can't see what your point is bringing that up though. | |||
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"I would imagine that the EU27 are quite pleased to see the back of this for the time being. Job done. There are far more important issues exercising their mind at the moment than the UK's ongoing internecine civil war. " What like papering over the obvious cracks in the EU's fragile walls? They can continue to put sticking plasterers over gaping wounds like the migrant crisis and the looming Eurozone banking debt crisis but they really are fooling no one. | |||
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" What like papering over the obvious cracks in the EU's fragile walls? They can continue to put sticking plasterers over gaping wounds like the migrant crisis and the looming Eurozone banking debt crisis but they really are fooling no one. " What happens next is entirely down to the UK. If the UK hits the self-destruct button, so be it. The Barnier team did what they were asked to do and found a way for the UK to exit that did not compromise the single market, that did not lead to a hard border in Northern Ireland. Whether the UK takes up the opportunity is entirely up to the UK now. But I doubt that will stop you continuing to blame the EU for everything from world poverty to the common cold. | |||
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" . . .and the looming Eurozone banking debt crisis but they really are fooling no one. " How many years have you been trotting out this line? What's your definition of "looming" - decades? The only central bank in Europe dusting down a crisis management plan at the moment is the Bank of England for a chaotic exit from the EU. | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio?" Larry curly and mo  | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio? They are like the Marx brothers, 3 comedy clowns, all failed politicians in their home countries, unelected and appointed to Lord it over everyone in Europe from Brussels. Juncker is d*unk half the time, a bona fide hopeless alcoholic. " exactly the reason I'm happy to leave. | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio? They have proven to be very talented Politicians and Negotiators - as has very recently been demonstrated by their handling of the almighty and powerful United Kingdom. I know, I know - they are foreign and probably eat too much garlic and cheese, but you know. Sometimes you just have to give credit where credit is due. They saw ood David "thick as mince" Davis, Dominic "Geographically challenged" Raab and watching Theresa May on TV just now - they have probably seen her off as well. May Rabb and Davis aren't exactly tough politicians
At least they are directly elected by the people though which is more than can be said for Juncker, Tusk and Barnier. "Barnier is Chief Negotiator. Seems like a perfectly reasonable role to select rather than elect. Also, aren't you a big Trump fan. He isn't directly elected by the people either. | |||
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"I do find it strange that anyone could equate being appointed to one of the arguably 3 most powerful positions in the EU (and therefore in the world) as a failure. By that standard to be a success in Centy's world one needs to be unable to get the majority of EU leaders to trust you to place the EU interests first at all times. But then Centy is a nationalist and like all nationalists (xenophobe) considers anyone who would put the greater good before narrow nationalist self-interest a failure." It's called blind unadulterated hatred Will | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio? They have proven to be very talented Politicians and Negotiators - as has very recently been demonstrated by their handling of the almighty and powerful United Kingdom. I know, I know - they are foreign and probably eat too much garlic and cheese, but you know. Sometimes you just have to give credit where credit is due. They saw ood David "thick as mince" Davis, Dominic "Geographically challenged" Raab and watching Theresa May on TV just now - they have probably seen her off as well. May Rabb and Davis aren't exactly tough politicians
The point being is that despite all the bluster and bravado on the British side, we can look back on two years of disunity, mixed messages and ultimatelky failure of the British side.
Barnier, Juncker and Tusk have remained unified, consistent and on track with the wishes and needs of the EU.
I get it that English Entitlement means that it is almost impossible to offer credit to any foreign person who may have outwitted and/or outfoxed a true Brit - but actually. These three made the entire UK negotiating team look like the bunch of amateurs that they are.
Never mind though - that was just the withdrawal agreement. We still have a pipe dream trade deal to Negotiate with the EU and let's not forget that countries all over the globe will be falling over themselves to do a trade deal with the UK that is weighted heavily in our favour and not their own. At least then we wont need talented people on the team.
The negotiations were a bit like sending your granny to sort out a bar room brawl!Theresa May was never up to the job, she had no belief in what she was doing, I could have done a better job of negotiating a deal!"People always say similar things to this. My answer is two fold. The Tory party selects it's contenders for leadership. Generally record, connections and how you present your candidacy get you through to the process. Then policy assessment starts. Simply put back in 2016 those who supported brext either did not have the balls to accept the responsibility to govern. Mogg, Davis. And those from that wing were seen as bad choices by the party or had poor policy. Despite what brexiteers think, a pm isn't just for brexit, nor can you win on brexit. If you listen, brexit was about failed domestic policy, and this was shown by how labour turned the GE discussion last year. If you want more control over the candidates going forward, lobby a party to do popular vote based on candidate, it's only then you might get a brexit candidate line up. | |||
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"my thoughts exactly so why are so many people in love with the EU when these creeps are in charge The British are not in love with it, 17.4 million of us voted to leave.
Europeans are falling out of love with it as well, as Eurosceptic parties are gaining more votes with each passing election. "You say this but the 5 star movement and the hard right party in Italy opnly disclosed to Steve Bannon that they just want reform, and that the EU falling apart or more union based on the current form, are equally bad in their eyes. Face it. A lot are Eurosceptic, but they don't want distruction. | |||
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"The more I think about it, the more our democracy shows flaws. We vote people in largely because of the party they stand for , rather than their individual skills. We then shoehorn these people into positions of responsibility the best we can (in a naive world) or based on backroom political manuveing (in the real world) It’s the peter principal without ever showing any competence. We should have asked the House of Lords to run this show. They at least tend to have some life skills (outside of peers). " The issue though is that do we expect MP’s to be “highly qualified” and if so - in what? There is a legitimate argument that to be promoted from the back benches to a Ministetial position, you should experience or qualifications on your brief - but is that realistic? Don’t get me wrong - I totally agree with the concept of having higher quality, better qualified MP’ s but I don’t see how it would work in the real world. The alternative is then for Ministers who are not qualified, but who wish to pursue a legitimate and worthy course of action to employ qualified “civil servants” to enact what is needed but to then run the risk of being accused that unelected bureaucrats are making our laws. Tough call.  | |||
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"The more I think about it, the more our democracy shows flaws. We vote people in largely because of the party they stand for , rather than their individual skills. We then shoehorn these people into positions of responsibility the best we can (in a naive world) or based on backroom political manuveing (in the real world) It’s the peter principal without ever showing any competence. We should have asked the House of Lords to run this show. They at least tend to have some life skills (outside of peers). The issue though is that do we expect MP’s to be “highly qualified” and if so - in what? There is a legitimate argument that to be promoted from the back benches to a Ministetial position, you should experience or qualifications on your brief - but is that realistic? Don’t get me wrong - I totally agree with the concept of having higher quality, better qualified MP’ s but I don’t see how it would work in the real world. The alternative is then for Ministers who are not qualified, but who wish to pursue a legitimate and worthy course of action to employ qualified “civil servants” to enact what is needed but to then run the risk of being accused that unelected bureaucrats are making our laws. Tough call. "The Roman's managed it in the early and mid Republic. Want to be Military Tribune? You need 5 years of military activity under your belt. Want to be Questor, you need to attend an academy and study Law. Some Greek city states had similar systems. I'm sure if these early republics and civic polities could manage that, then in this day and age with; guaranteed state education, instant communication and a greater diversity of labour, I'm sure we could make a more meritocratic based system. | |||
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"I would imagine that the EU27 are quite pleased to see the back of this for the time being. Job done. There are far more important issues exercising their mind at the moment than the UK's ongoing internecine civil war. What like papering over the obvious cracks in the EU's fragile walls? They can continue to put sticking plasterers over gaping wounds like the migrant crisis and the looming Eurozone banking debt crisis but they really are fooling no one. " Theyre so fragile that all 27 countries stuck together. On the other hand, we havent even go a cabinet which can remain united for more than a few days. | |||
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"This comedy trio sum up perfectly everything that is wrong in the EU so-called 'superstate'. Listening to the Clangers conversing made more sense...with Angela Merkel as the Soup Dragon and Macron as the Iron Chicken '"Odd that their incoherence led to all 27 countries sticking to their guns. If you think theyre comedy gold, look at the clowns we have running the show.... | |||
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"It's called blind unadulterated hatred Will " That's a bit harsh, in my opinion. Nationalists (or more accurately supremacists) don't start from a position of hate, they start from a position of belief in their natural superiority. Then when they find themselves out though or preformed or faced with lack of achievement their first defence is ridicule and belittlement of those that achieve what they cannot. It is only then that the hatred develops. Centy and the brexiteers inability to acknowledge what a piss poor job their team has produced in the last 2 years and how well Juncker, Barnier and Tusk have preformed is why they now portray them as slapstick comedy figures. When the EU fails to implode without a 'strong and stable' UK to 'protect' it from the machinations of the dastardly Krauts and snivelling Frogs (no insult intended to either nation) then the derision will turn to hate. Of course if the EU economy and political union is seen to forge ahead and become stronger while the UK's economy collapses and the union becomes more unstable then the development of hate will be dramatically accelerated. | |||
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"It's called blind unadulterated hatred Will That's a bit harsh, in my opinion. Nationalists (or more accurately supremacists) don't start from a position of hate, they start from a position of belief in their natural superiority. Then when they find themselves out though or preformed or faced with lack of achievement their first defence is ridicule and belittlement of those that achieve what they cannot. It is only then that the hatred develops. Centy and the brexiteers inability to acknowledge what a piss poor job their team has produced in the last 2 years and how well Juncker, Barnier and Tusk have preformed is why they now portray them as slapstick comedy figures. When the EU fails to implode without a 'strong and stable' UK to 'protect' it from the machinations of the dastardly Krauts and snivelling Frogs (no insult intended to either nation) then the derision will turn to hate. Of course if the EU economy and political union is seen to forge ahead and become stronger while the UK's economy collapses and the union becomes more unstable then the development of hate will be dramatically accelerated." Good summary | |||
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"It's called blind unadulterated hatred Will That's a bit harsh, in my opinion. Nationalists (or more accurately supremacists) don't start from a position of hate, they start from a position of belief in their natural superiority. Then when they find themselves out though or preformed or faced with lack of achievement their first defence is ridicule and belittlement of those that achieve what they cannot. It is only then that the hatred develops. Centy and the brexiteers inability to acknowledge what a piss poor job their team has produced in the last 2 years and how well Juncker, Barnier and Tusk have preformed is why they now portray them as slapstick comedy figures. When the EU fails to implode without a 'strong and stable' UK to 'protect' it from the machinations of the dastardly Krauts and snivelling Frogs (no insult intended to either nation) then the derision will turn to hate. Of course if the EU economy and political union is seen to forge ahead and become stronger while the UK's economy collapses and the union becomes more unstable then the development of hate will be dramatically accelerated." I disagree, the hatred is there plain for all to see unfortunately. | |||
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"Tusk was Prime Minister of one of the few countries in the world to not go into recession in 2008. Not a bad job. " . Interesting, how did they manage that with very little immigration and a large emigration of youth?. How did they manage to produce a first class eduction system without spending a fucking fortune, how did they manage to do austerity on they're budget without the world collapsing, why are the polish youth more go getting than our own, how are they still deeply nationalists while still having an outward looking economics?. We could learn alot from the poles | |||
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"my thoughts exactly so why are so many people in love with the EU when these creeps are in charge The British are not in love with it, 17.4 million of us voted to leave.
Europeans are falling out of love with it as well, as Eurosceptic parties are gaining more votes with each passing election.
You say this but the 5 star movement and the hard right party in Italy opnly disclosed to Steve Bannon that they just want reform, and that the EU falling apart or more union based on the current form, are equally bad in their eyes.
Face it. A lot are Eurosceptic, but they don't want distruction."Exactly my thoughts, Cameron went to re negotiate and got nowhere. The three appear strong because they simply say no, our way or no way as if the constitution of the EU can never change or alter course, ultimately this course of action is doomed and at its heart is a lack of accountability and democracy. | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw)" I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. | |||
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"I would imagine that the EU27 are quite pleased to see the back of this for the time being. Job done. There are far more important issues exercising their mind at the moment than the UK's ongoing internecine civil war. What like papering over the obvious cracks in the EU's fragile walls? They can continue to put sticking plasterers over gaping wounds like the migrant crisis and the looming Eurozone banking debt crisis but they really are fooling no one. Theyre so fragile that all 27 countries stuck together. On the other hand, we havent even go a cabinet which can remain united for more than a few days." This is tricky but I share David Essex's view on this, the fact that we look in disarray and cant agree on anything is because we have an open (and sometimes dysfunctional) democracy, rather that then carry on driving the train at full speed until it hits the buffers. | |||
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"I would imagine that the EU27 are quite pleased to see the back of this for the time being. Job done. There are far more important issues exercising their mind at the moment than the UK's ongoing internecine civil war. What like papering over the obvious cracks in the EU's fragile walls? They can continue to put sticking plasterers over gaping wounds like the migrant crisis and the looming Eurozone banking debt crisis but they really are fooling no one. Theyre so fragile that all 27 countries stuck together. On the other hand, we havent even go a cabinet which can remain united for more than a few days. This is tricky but I share David Essex's view on this, the fact that we look in disarray and cant agree on anything is because we have an open (and sometimes dysfunctional) democracy, rather that then carry on driving the train at full speed until it hits the buffers. " I disagree their are many that would drive the brexit train straight off the cliff because of a pathological hatred of the EU. | |||
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"I would imagine that the EU27 are quite pleased to see the back of this for the time being. Job done. There are far more important issues exercising their mind at the moment than the UK's ongoing internecine civil war. What like papering over the obvious cracks in the EU's fragile walls? They can continue to put sticking plasterers over gaping wounds like the migrant crisis and the looming Eurozone banking debt crisis but they really are fooling no one. Theyre so fragile that all 27 countries stuck together. On the other hand, we havent even go a cabinet which can remain united for more than a few days. This is tricky but I share David Essex's view on this, the fact that we look in disarray and cant agree on anything is because we have an open (and sometimes dysfunctional) democracy, rather that then carry on driving the train at full speed until it hits the buffers. I disagree their are many that would drive the brexit train straight off the cliff because of a pathological hatred of the EU." Drive into the buffers or de rail the train, the result is the same. | |||
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" Exactly my thoughts, Cameron went to re negotiate and got nowhere. The three appear strong because they simply say no, our way or no way as if the constitution of the EU can never change or alter course, ultimately this course of action is doomed and at its heart is a lack of accountability and democracy. " Uhhh No. The EU economy is the larger and more powerful economy - they call the shots. That is how it works. A sense of British Entitlement is fine, but when it comes to real-world negotiations with more powerful opponents - it is fairly quickly exposed as the fantasy that it is. The UK has struggled massively to disentangle itself from the largest and most successful political and trading alliance in the world - and these are our friends. Imagine what it is going to be like taking on hard-nosed Negotiators from the United States, China and India. They all know that we have just given up 90% of our economic leverage and we will get to know about that very, very quickly. | |||
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" Centy and the brexiteers inability to acknowledge what a piss poor job their team has produced in the last 2 years and how well Juncker, Barnier and Tusk have preformed is why they now portray them as slapstick comedy figures. " It wasn't 'our team' who negotiated this shambles of a brexit deal though Will, this is your key misunderstanding. This deal has been negotiated on the Uk's behalf by remainers who never wanted to leave in the first place. Theresa May backed remain and has never believed in Brexit, as Jacob Rees Mogg pointed out in the House of Commons "what she says and what she does no longer match". She talks tough on Brexit but her actions show she doesn't know what a red line means and she capitulates far too easily, she says one thing and does the opposite. She's also backed by a remain chancellor of the exchequer who has refused point blank to release the necessary funds to prepare for no deal, when Brexiters like Nigel Farage were telling him to release funds and prepare properly for no deal 2 years ago. Theresa May took 'personal responsibility' for the negotiations along with her Europhile brexit advisor Olly Robbins, as a result the position of Brexit secretary which David Davis and Dominic Raab held were completely pointless because whatever they did or decided upon would be over ruled by Theresa May and Olly Robbins. This is a remainers Brexit deal and is a complete betrayal of what Brexit should have been. So when you say I refuse to acknowledge they have done a piss poor job you're wrong, because May, Robbins and Hammond have done a piss poor job, it's almost as if they have deliberately sabotaged what Brexit should have been. She'll reap what she has sewn now though because she's managed to piss just about everyone off, both leavers and remainers. | |||
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" Centy and the brexiteers inability to acknowledge what a piss poor job their team has produced in the last 2 years and how well Juncker, Barnier and Tusk have preformed is why they now portray them as slapstick comedy figures. It wasn't 'our team' who negotiated this shambles of a brexit deal though Will, this is your key misunderstanding. This deal has been negotiated on the Uk's behalf by remainers who never wanted to leave in the first place. Theresa May backed remain and has never believed in Brexit, as Jacob Rees Mogg pointed out in the House of Commons "what she says and what she does no longer match". She talks tough on Brexit but her actions show she doesn't know what a red line means and she capitulates far too easily, she says one thing and does the opposite. She's also backed by a remain chancellor of the exchequer who has refused point blank to release the necessary funds to prepare for no deal, when Brexiters like Nigel Farage were telling him to release funds and prepare properly for no deal 2 years ago. Theresa May took 'personal responsibility' for the negotiations along with her Europhile brexit advisor Olly Robbins, as a result the position of Brexit secretary which David Davis and Dominic Raab held were completely pointless because whatever they did or decided upon would be over ruled by Theresa May and Olly Robbins. This is a remainers Brexit deal and is a complete betrayal of what Brexit should have been. So when you say I refuse to acknowledge they have done a piss poor job you're wrong, because May, Robbins and Hammond have done a piss poor job, it's almost as if they have deliberately sabotaged what Brexit should have been. She'll reap what she has sewn now though because she's managed to piss just about everyone off, both leavers and remainers. " That about sums it up, it's almost like they set out to scupper brexit from the very start!  | |||
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"i dont think the EU economy is that strong, Germany is strong but, they carry a massive dead weight and are under massive political pressure internally . Genuine friendship between nations seems pretty dead in the water right now world wide" When compared to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland & England - EU seems as friendly as the home nations! | |||
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" Centy and the brexiteers inability to acknowledge what a piss poor job their team has produced in the last 2 years and how well Juncker, Barnier and Tusk have preformed is why they now portray them as slapstick comedy figures. It wasn't 'our team' who negotiated this shambles of a brexit deal though Will, this is your key misunderstanding. This deal has been negotiated on the Uk's behalf by remainers who never wanted to leave in the first place. Theresa May backed remain and has never believed in Brexit, as Jacob Rees Mogg pointed out in the House of Commons "what she says and what she does no longer match". She talks tough on Brexit but her actions show she doesn't know what a red line means and she capitulates far too easily, she says one thing and does the opposite. She's also backed by a remain chancellor of the exchequer who has refused point blank to release the necessary funds to prepare for no deal, when Brexiters like Nigel Farage were telling him to release funds and prepare properly for no deal 2 years ago. Theresa May took 'personal responsibility' for the negotiations along with her Europhile brexit advisor Olly Robbins, as a result the position of Brexit secretary which David Davis and Dominic Raab held were completely pointless because whatever they did or decided upon would be over ruled by Theresa May and Olly Robbins. This is a remainers Brexit deal and is a complete betrayal of what Brexit should have been. So when you say I refuse to acknowledge they have done a piss poor job you're wrong, because May, Robbins and Hammond have done a piss poor job, it's almost as if they have deliberately sabotaged what Brexit should have been. She'll reap what she has sewn now though because she's managed to piss just about everyone off, both leavers and remainers. That about sums it up, it's almost like they set out to scupper brexit from the very start! "There are plenty of well known faces that trotted off to the Trio to talk down Brexit, "play hard ball, and you will earn a second referendum " If you had sent in a hard line Brexit Minister from day one I doubt the outcome would have been different , but we would have started preparing for a no deal in earnest 18 months ago. It feels like a total waste of time to me to achieve very little | |||
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" Centy and the brexiteers inability to acknowledge what a piss poor job their team has produced in the last 2 years and how well Juncker, Barnier and Tusk have preformed is why they now portray them as slapstick comedy figures. It wasn't 'our team' who negotiated this shambles of a brexit deal though Will, this is your key misunderstanding. This deal has been negotiated on the Uk's behalf by remainers who never wanted to leave in the first place. Theresa May backed remain and has never believed in Brexit, as Jacob Rees Mogg pointed out in the House of Commons "what she says and what she does no longer match". She talks tough on Brexit but her actions show she doesn't know what a red line means and she capitulates far too easily, she says one thing and does the opposite. She's also backed by a remain chancellor of the exchequer who has refused point blank to release the necessary funds to prepare for no deal, when Brexiters like Nigel Farage were telling him to release funds and prepare properly for no deal 2 years ago. Theresa May took 'personal responsibility' for the negotiations along with her Europhile brexit advisor Olly Robbins, as a result the position of Brexit secretary which David Davis and Dominic Raab held were completely pointless because whatever they did or decided upon would be over ruled by Theresa May and Olly Robbins. This is a remainers Brexit deal and is a complete betrayal of what Brexit should have been. So when you say I refuse to acknowledge they have done a piss poor job you're wrong, because May, Robbins and Hammond have done a piss poor job, it's almost as if they have deliberately sabotaged what Brexit should have been. She'll reap what she has sewn now though because she's managed to piss just about everyone off, both leavers and remainers. That about sums it up, it's almost like they set out to scupper brexit from the very start!
There are plenty of well known faces that trotted off to the Trio to talk down Brexit, "play hard ball, and you will earn a second referendum " If you had sent in a hard line Brexit Minister from day one I doubt the outcome would have been different , but we would have started preparing for a no deal in earnest 18 months ago. It feels like a total waste of time to me to achieve very little"You'd honestly think these numpties would have learned a valuable lesson from David Cameron when he failed to prepare for a leave vote in 2016. But no, Theresa May and Philip Hammond did it again and have failed to prepare properly for no Deal, even though voices from the Brexit backing community were calling out for it as soon as article 50 was triggered. | |||
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" Centy and the brexiteers inability to acknowledge what a piss poor job their team has produced in the last 2 years and how well Juncker, Barnier and Tusk have preformed is why they now portray them as slapstick comedy figures. It wasn't 'our team' who negotiated this shambles of a brexit deal though Will, this is your key misunderstanding. This deal has been negotiated on the Uk's behalf by remainers who never wanted to leave in the first place. Theresa May backed remain and has never believed in Brexit, as Jacob Rees Mogg pointed out in the House of Commons "what she says and what she does no longer match". She talks tough on Brexit but her actions show she doesn't know what a red line means and she capitulates far too easily, she says one thing and does the opposite. She's also backed by a remain chancellor of the exchequer who has refused point blank to release the necessary funds to prepare for no deal, when Brexiters like Nigel Farage were telling him to release funds and prepare properly for no deal 2 years ago. Theresa May took 'personal responsibility' for the negotiations along with her Europhile brexit advisor Olly Robbins, as a result the position of Brexit secretary which David Davis and Dominic Raab held were completely pointless because whatever they did or decided upon would be over ruled by Theresa May and Olly Robbins. This is a remainers Brexit deal and is a complete betrayal of what Brexit should have been. So when you say I refuse to acknowledge they have done a piss poor job you're wrong, because May, Robbins and Hammond have done a piss poor job, it's almost as if they have deliberately sabotaged what Brexit should have been. She'll reap what she has sewn now though because she's managed to piss just about everyone off, both leavers and remainers. That about sums it up, it's almost like they set out to scupper brexit from the very start!
There are plenty of well known faces that trotted off to the Trio to talk down Brexit, "play hard ball, and you will earn a second referendum " If you had sent in a hard line Brexit Minister from day one I doubt the outcome would have been different , but we would have started preparing for a no deal in earnest 18 months ago. It feels like a total waste of time to me to achieve very little
You'd honestly think these numpties would have learned a valuable lesson from David Cameron when he failed to prepare for a leave vote in 2016. But no, Theresa May and Philip Hammond did it again and have failed to prepare properly for no Deal, even though voices from the Brexit backing community were calling out for it as soon as article 50 was triggered. "I have spent most of my adult life negotiating deals of one kind or another, and usually there are a small number of significant deal killers from day one, so you address those first, eg N Ireland , immigration, customs, how much is it going to cost? close these off with all parties and job done, or fail and go to plan B | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. " How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. | |||
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"I wish i didnt know who they were I wish we all knew and understood a lot more about the motivations these three extremely powerful individuals." Why...so we too can drive ourselves crazy with half baked conspiracy theories?  | |||
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"I know give me a break about the B word but leaving your preferences to one side what do we really think of this trio? They have proven to be very talented Politicians and Negotiators - as has very recently been demonstrated by their handling of the almighty and powerful United Kingdom. I know, I know - they are foreign and probably eat too much garlic and cheese, but you know. Sometimes you just have to give credit where credit is due. They saw ood David "thick as mince" Davis, Dominic "Geographically challenged" Raab and watching Theresa May on TV just now - they have probably seen her off as well. May Rabb and Davis aren't exactly tough politicians
The point being is that despite all the bluster and bravado on the British side, we can look back on two years of disunity, mixed messages and ultimatelky failure of the British side.
Barnier, Juncker and Tusk have remained unified, consistent and on track with the wishes and needs of the EU.
I get it that English Entitlement means that it is almost impossible to offer credit to any foreign person who may have outwitted and/or outfoxed a true Brit - but actually. These three made the entire UK negotiating team look like the bunch of amateurs that they are.
Never mind though - that was just the withdrawal agreement. We still have a pipe dream trade deal to Negotiate with the EU and let's not forget that countries all over the globe will be falling over themselves to do a trade deal with the UK that is weighted heavily in our favour and not their own. At least then we wont need talented people on the team."And to do it all while pissed "half the time" is commendable | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel." ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol | |||
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"I would imagine that the EU27 are quite pleased to see the back of this for the time being. Job done. There are far more important issues exercising their mind at the moment than the UK's ongoing internecine civil war. What like papering over the obvious cracks in the EU's fragile walls? They can continue to put sticking plasterers over gaping wounds like the migrant crisis and the looming Eurozone banking debt crisis but they really are fooling no one. " Leaning on the media's favourite word "crisis" | |||
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" Centy and the brexiteers inability to acknowledge what a piss poor job their team has produced in the last 2 years and how well Juncker, Barnier and Tusk have preformed is why they now portray them as slapstick comedy figures. It wasn't 'our team' who negotiated this shambles of a brexit deal though Will, this is your key misunderstanding. This deal has been negotiated on the Uk's behalf by remainers who never wanted to leave in the first place. Theresa May backed remain and has never believed in Brexit, as Jacob Rees Mogg pointed out in the House of Commons "what she says and what she does no longer match". She talks tough on Brexit but her actions show she doesn't know what a red line means and she capitulates far too easily, she says one thing and does the opposite. She's also backed by a remain chancellor of the exchequer who has refused point blank to release the necessary funds to prepare for no deal, when Brexiters like Nigel Farage were telling him to release funds and prepare properly for no deal 2 years ago. Theresa May took 'personal responsibility' for the negotiations along with her Europhile brexit advisor Olly Robbins, as a result the position of Brexit secretary which David Davis and Dominic Raab held were completely pointless because whatever they did or decided upon would be over ruled by Theresa May and Olly Robbins. This is a remainers Brexit deal and is a complete betrayal of what Brexit should have been. So when you say I refuse to acknowledge they have done a piss poor job you're wrong, because May, Robbins and Hammond have done a piss poor job, it's almost as if they have deliberately sabotaged what Brexit should have been. She'll reap what she has sewn now though because she's managed to piss just about everyone off, both leavers and remainers. " Cameron asked if you want BREXIT, you said yes, T May had negotiated BREXIT for you, raise a glass to May for she has given you a BREXIT | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol" To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol" yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join." Low resolution theories for low resolution people | |||
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"as for blaming may nah blame is at camerons door.and i wouldnt of botherd trying to get a deal.scorched earth policy lol" Laufh out loud...the policy of the democratic people | |||
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"see this if the thing with you remainers your so clever and everyone else who disagrees with you is thick. but all u libs are tje same mate hate it wen things dont work out they way you wanted.bet you was 100 % sure that remain would win eh" I'm just laughing at humanity from the sidelines...it doesn't affect me | |||
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"dont affect me either where i cime frim we have fuck all wether we in or out lets face it its only buisnesses who wana stay being in the eu does fuck all for me" Why are you so passionate about it then? | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel." I have some history with Greece going back to the 1980's and the Greeks themselves are WHOLLY to blame for the shit that they found themselves in. A Greek friend said to me about crisis a few years ago that joining the EU was like fraudulently completing a mortgage application and then getting all upset that you could not afford the mortgage payments because you had decided that actually, it was better to just work part-time and deal mainly in cash. Greece is recovering bit by bit and the Greek Govt is introducing measures to try to control cash transactions and to get a grip on Govt finances. That said, many still do flout the rules. For example, businesses are now supposed to have a card reader to take electronic payments but so many bars, restaurants and hire companies on the islands still shrug their shoulders and come up with the most ridiculous of excuses as to why "today" unfortunately it has to be cash. As it happens, I happen to think that Greece needs to get out of the Euro - if that is even possible? They accept that their position is ENTIRELY of their own making, but they are now trapped by European Banking Policies. They need to get out of the Euro and accept a tremendous devaluation of their new currency in the knowledge that the initial, terrible pain will be the worst and after that things will get better over the long term. Not good for people who bought Greek property or have other Greek assets, but it is something they need to do and I know a number of Greeks who think that the short-term pain would be worth it. Ironically though - few (if any) see leaving the EU as desirable. | |||
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"im not pasionate about it id rather they just got on wirh it now with or wivout a deal been going on cpl years now and bored of it" That is the spirit. Let's not think too hard, let's not cover our basis and plan contingencies. No, fuck that. Let's act like a banana republic because thinking and planning is just way too hard and boring. | |||
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"im not pasionate about it id rather they just got on wirh it now with or wivout a deal been going on cpl years now and bored of it That is the spirit. Let's not think too hard, let's not cover our basis and plan contingencies. No, fuck that. Let's act like a banana republic because thinking and planning is just way too hard and boring." we have had remainers planning and meeting for cpl of years now and by looks of things no one is happy with wjat the dried up old cunt has come back with. you seem lke your about to have a stroke mate lol | |||
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" Centy and the brexiteers inability to acknowledge what a piss poor job their team has produced in the last 2 years and how well Juncker, Barnier and Tusk have preformed is why they now portray them as slapstick comedy figures. It wasn't 'our team' who negotiated this shambles of a brexit deal though Will, this is your key misunderstanding. This deal has been negotiated on the Uk's behalf by remainers who never wanted to leave in the first place. Theresa May backed remain and has never believed in Brexit, as Jacob Rees Mogg pointed out in the House of Commons "what she says and what she does no longer match". She talks tough on Brexit but her actions show she doesn't know what a red line means and she capitulates far too easily, she says one thing and does the opposite. She's also backed by a remain chancellor of the exchequer who has refused point blank to release the necessary funds to prepare for no deal, when Brexiters like Nigel Farage were telling him to release funds and prepare properly for no deal 2 years ago. Theresa May took 'personal responsibility' for the negotiations along with her Europhile brexit advisor Olly Robbins, as a result the position of Brexit secretary which David Davis and Dominic Raab held were completely pointless because whatever they did or decided upon would be over ruled by Theresa May and Olly Robbins. This is a remainers Brexit deal and is a complete betrayal of what Brexit should have been. So when you say I refuse to acknowledge they have done a piss poor job you're wrong, because May, Robbins and Hammond have done a piss poor job, it's almost as if they have deliberately sabotaged what Brexit should have been. She'll reap what she has sewn now though because she's managed to piss just about everyone off, both leavers and remainers. " You’re team failed the preseason trials and when someone did get a call up they ch0cked claiming they’d never been put in the position they wanted or couldn’t influence the game. (Tbh bad analogy all round. But if brexiteers can’t even organise themselves to influence this weak government they can’t really moan they didn’t have a chance to play the big boys.) | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join." Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. | |||
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"im not pasionate about it id rather they just got on wirh it now with or wivout a deal been going on cpl years now and bored of it That is the spirit. Let's not think too hard, let's not cover our basis and plan contingencies. No, fuck that. Let's act like a banana republic because thinking and planning is just way too hard and boring." And let's not even be able to vocalise a good reason for it in the first place That's the spirit! | |||
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" I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. " The EU isn't responsible for the economy of Greece. Greece is. Greece chose to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism, the precursor to currency union. The EU set criteria for being in the Euro and it was down to each country to fulfil that criteria. If they could, they were in. If they could not, they were not. What subsequently emerged was the role of one of the big global accountancy firms - I cannot remember which now. Greece hired them to fiddle their books so their economy looked as if it was within the parameters for entry to the Euro. (You may recall that Britain did not meet the criteria either, after crashing in the ERM, and opted not to pursue participation in the Euro as a result.) Greece chose to continue on the basis of false accounts. The choice was Greece's, no-one else's. | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. " Hmmm....sounds a bit like someone on here doesn’t it! Shouts the odds and then goes all pouty and spouts mean ripostes when it doesn’t go his way! Public school boy were you by any chance?  | |||
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" I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. The EU isn't responsible for the economy of Greece. Greece is. Greece chose to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism, the precursor to currency union. The EU set criteria for being in the Euro and it was down to each country to fulfil that criteria. If they could, they were in. If they could not, they were not. What subsequently emerged was the role of one of the big global accountancy firms - I cannot remember which now. Greece hired them to fiddle their books so their economy looked as if it was within the parameters for entry to the Euro. (You may recall that Britain did not meet the criteria either, after crashing in the ERM, and opted not to pursue participation in the Euro as a result.) Greece chose to continue on the basis of false accounts. The choice was Greece's, no-one else's. " I've just looked up how Greece fiddled their accounts to fit in with the EU's fiscal requirements, it's quite amazing the lengths they went to and not surprising the end mess they are now in. But yeah let's blame the EU for Greece's cover up | |||
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" I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. The EU isn't responsible for the economy of Greece. Greece is. Greece chose to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism, the precursor to currency union. The EU set criteria for being in the Euro and it was down to each country to fulfil that criteria. If they could, they were in. If they could not, they were not. What subsequently emerged was the role of one of the big global accountancy firms - I cannot remember which now. Greece hired them to fiddle their books so their economy looked as if it was within the parameters for entry to the Euro. (You may recall that Britain did not meet the criteria either, after crashing in the ERM, and opted not to pursue participation in the Euro as a result.) Greece chose to continue on the basis of false accounts. The choice was Greece's, no-one else's. I've just looked up how Greece fiddled their accounts to fit in with the EU's fiscal requirements, it's quite amazing the lengths they went to and not surprising the end mess they are now in. But yeah let's blame the EU for Greece's cover up "the other thing those nay-sayers also fail to recognise is that greece actually came out of their Eurozone/IMF bail out 6 months ago!!! yes its touch what they have been tru and no one would say otherwise, but there economy is in far better shape for the changes they had to make than they were beforehand having a state pension retirement age of 52 was unsustainable.... the rich not being chased to pay the taxes they owned was not sustainable so are people hating on the three mentioned in the OP because they are now actually finding out what a formindable negoiating block the EU actually is... and that you are never going to get as good a trade deals being outside of the bloc than how we are in it..... so now you happen to be on the other end i thought leavers said we were going to get the best deals??? | |||
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" I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. The EU isn't responsible for the economy of Greece. Greece is. Greece chose to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism, the precursor to currency union. The EU set criteria for being in the Euro and it was down to each country to fulfil that criteria. If they could, they were in. If they could not, they were not. What subsequently emerged was the role of one of the big global accountancy firms - I cannot remember which now. Greece hired them to fiddle their books so their economy looked as if it was within the parameters for entry to the Euro. (You may recall that Britain did not meet the criteria either, after crashing in the ERM, and opted not to pursue participation in the Euro as a result.) Greece chose to continue on the basis of false accounts. The choice was Greece's, no-one else's. I've just looked up how Greece fiddled their accounts to fit in with the EU's fiscal requirements, it's quite amazing the lengths they went to and not surprising the end mess they are now in. But yeah let's blame the EU for Greece's cover up
the other thing those nay-sayers also fail to recognise is that greece actually came out of their Eurozone/IMF bail out 6 months ago!!!
yes its touch what they have been tru and no one would say otherwise, but there economy is in far better shape for the changes they had to make than they were beforehand
having a state pension retirement age of 52 was unsustainable.... the rich not being chased to pay the taxes they owned was not sustainable
". And yet there debt to GDP ratio was far better before entering the euro and still is higher than ever today!. And all those things you mentioned were a constant before the euro, how come they only became unsustainable once they joined the euro?. I am/was a remain voter but let's not pretend that the euro project was the most stupid and dangerous thing dreamt up by ideologue politicans ever conceived since Mao thought that famine was part of the cost for an agricultural revolution. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. The EU isn't responsible for the economy of Greece. Greece is. Greece chose to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism, the precursor to currency union. The EU set criteria for being in the Euro and it was down to each country to fulfil that criteria. If they could, they were in. If they could not, they were not. What subsequently emerged was the role of one of the big global accountancy firms - I cannot remember which now. Greece hired them to fiddle their books so their economy looked as if it was within the parameters for entry to the Euro. (You may recall that Britain did not meet the criteria either, after crashing in the ERM, and opted not to pursue participation in the Euro as a result.) Greece chose to continue on the basis of false accounts. The choice was Greece's, no-one else's. I've just looked up how Greece fiddled their accounts to fit in with the EU's fiscal requirements, it's quite amazing the lengths they went to and not surprising the end mess they are now in. But yeah let's blame the EU for Greece's cover up
the other thing those nay-sayers also fail to recognise is that greece actually came out of their Eurozone/IMF bail out 6 months ago!!!
yes its touch what they have been tru and no one would say otherwise, but there economy is in far better shape for the changes they had to make than they were beforehand
having a state pension retirement age of 52 was unsustainable.... the rich not being chased to pay the taxes they owned was not sustainable
.
And yet there debt to GDP ratio was far better before entering the euro and still is higher than ever today!.
And all those things you mentioned were a constant before the euro, how come they only became unsustainable once they joined the euro?.
I am/was a remain voter but let's not pretend that the euro project was the most stupid and dangerous thing dreamt up by ideologue politicans ever conceived since Mao thought that famine was part of the cost for an agricultural revolution."You can only keep the truth of your financial disaster hidden for "X" amount of time & then once they joined the EU Greece was able to borrow money on a very low rate, and boy, did they borrow & borrow & borrow......until they had to come clean. | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. " Ask Greece if it was happy with the stewardship of their economy by the Greek Governments that got them into the mess in the first place. The Greek people had a referendum on whether to leave the Euro or remain. They choose to remain knowing that remaining in the Euro would mean budget cuts and austerity. | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. " Oh and best not to mention how the EU was condemned by its own watchdog earlier this year for bending the rules on how they appointed Martin Selmayer to the position on Secretary General to the EU commission. Juncker amd Tusk don't give a fuck about EU rules when it's jobs for the boys in Brussels.  | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. Oh and best not to mention how the EU was condemned by its own watchdog earlier this year for bending the rules on how they appointed Martin Selmayer to the position on Secretary General to the EU commission. Juncker amd Tusk don't give a fuck about EU rules when it's jobs for the boys in Brussels. "No, mention it. It was a pretty bad state of affairs, for which...the EU watchdog condemned the Commission
What did Tusk have to do with Selmayer's appointment though?
How many knighthoods, peerages and seats on committees do you think are being offered for votes for the upcoming bill. Will we ever find out?
We were a basket case economy when we joined the EEC... | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. Oh and best not to mention how the EU was condemned by its own watchdog earlier this year for bending the rules on how they appointed Martin Selmayer to the position on Secretary General to the EU commission. Juncker amd Tusk don't give a fuck about EU rules when it's jobs for the boys in Brussels. "I'm sure there will be a seats with MP's names on waiting to be installed in the House of Lords for every Government supporting MP in the up coming parliament vote
Different countries, same rules, different boys. | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. Ask Greece if it was happy with the stewardship of their economy by the Greek Governments that got them into the mess in the first place. The Greek people had a referendum on whether to leave the Euro or remain. They choose to remain knowing that remaining in the Euro would mean budget cuts and austerity. " The Greek people have never been asked if they want the Euro or not. The 2015 Referendum was on whether to accept bailout terms in order to allow capital into the monetary system. The Greek people rejected these terms by a majority of 2 to 1. The Government took the bailout terms despite the referendum result. | |||
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" I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. The EU isn't responsible for the economy of Greece. Greece is. Greece chose to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism, the precursor to currency union. The EU set criteria for being in the Euro and it was down to each country to fulfil that criteria. If they could, they were in. If they could not, they were not. What subsequently emerged was the role of one of the big global accountancy firms - I cannot remember which now. Greece hired them to fiddle their books so their economy looked as if it was within the parameters for entry to the Euro. (You may recall that Britain did not meet the criteria either, after crashing in the ERM, and opted not to pursue participation in the Euro as a result.) Greece chose to continue on the basis of false accounts. The choice was Greece's, no-one else's. I've just looked up how Greece fiddled their accounts to fit in with the EU's fiscal requirements, it's quite amazing the lengths they went to and not surprising the end mess they are now in. But yeah let's blame the EU for Greece's cover up
the other thing those nay-sayers also fail to recognise is that greece actually came out of their Eurozone/IMF bail out 6 months ago!!!
yes its touch what they have been tru and no one would say otherwise, but there economy is in far better shape for the changes they had to make than they were beforehand
having a state pension retirement age of 52 was unsustainable.... the rich not being chased to pay the taxes they owned was not sustainable
.
And yet there debt to GDP ratio was far better before entering the euro and still is higher than ever today!.
And all those things you mentioned were a constant before the euro, how come they only became unsustainable once they joined the euro?.
I am/was a remain voter but let's not pretend that the euro project was the most stupid and dangerous thing dreamt up by ideologue politicans ever conceived since Mao thought that famine was part of the cost for an agricultural revolution."You seem well versed on economic matters...can you give a synopsis on why the euro project was a bad idea (the inability to deflate a currency as needed is one reason? What else). I'll accept your opinion over that of the typical low resolution theorists here. Also indicators from it's past, present and future? In practical terms, having the euro and eu wide travel are amazingly convenient. Some perks from our dark overlords to keep us happy? | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. Ask Greece if it was happy with the stewardship of their economy by the Greek Governments that got them into the mess in the first place. The Greek people had a referendum on whether to leave the Euro or remain. They choose to remain knowing that remaining in the Euro would mean budget cuts and austerity. The Greek people have never been asked if they want the Euro or not. The 2015 Referendum was on whether to accept bailout terms in order to allow capital into the monetary system. The Greek people rejected these terms by a majority of 2 to 1. The Government took the bailout terms despite the referendum result." Goes to show that the general public are not fit to make economic hard decisions. Behavioural economics at its simplest. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. Ask Greece if it was happy with the stewardship of their economy by the Greek Governments that got them into the mess in the first place. The Greek people had a referendum on whether to leave the Euro or remain. They choose to remain knowing that remaining in the Euro would mean budget cuts and austerity. The Greek people have never been asked if they want the Euro or not. The 2015 Referendum was on whether to accept bailout terms in order to allow capital into the monetary system. The Greek people rejected these terms by a majority of 2 to 1. The Government took the bailout terms despite the referendum result. Goes to show that the general public are not fit to make economic hard decisions. Behavioural economics at its simplest. " The situation wasn't helped by background noise from some factions in Germany, who basically wanted to cut Greece adrift. | |||
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" I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. The EU isn't responsible for the economy of Greece. Greece is. Greece chose to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism, the precursor to currency union. The EU set criteria for being in the Euro and it was down to each country to fulfil that criteria. If they could, they were in. If they could not, they were not. What subsequently emerged was the role of one of the big global accountancy firms - I cannot remember which now. Greece hired them to fiddle their books so their economy looked as if it was within the parameters for entry to the Euro. (You may recall that Britain did not meet the criteria either, after crashing in the ERM, and opted not to pursue participation in the Euro as a result.) Greece chose to continue on the basis of false accounts. The choice was Greece's, no-one else's. I've just looked up how Greece fiddled their accounts to fit in with the EU's fiscal requirements, it's quite amazing the lengths they went to and not surprising the end mess they are now in. But yeah let's blame the EU for Greece's cover up
the other thing those nay-sayers also fail to recognise is that greece actually came out of their Eurozone/IMF bail out 6 months ago!!!
yes its touch what they have been tru and no one would say otherwise, but there economy is in far better shape for the changes they had to make than they were beforehand
having a state pension retirement age of 52 was unsustainable.... the rich not being chased to pay the taxes they owned was not sustainable
.
And yet there debt to GDP ratio was far better before entering the euro and still is higher than ever today!.
And all those things you mentioned were a constant before the euro, how come they only became unsustainable once they joined the euro?.
I am/was a remain voter but let's not pretend that the euro project was the most stupid and dangerous thing dreamt up by ideologue politicans ever conceived since Mao thought that famine was part of the cost for an agricultural revolution.
You seem well versed on economic matters...can you give a synopsis on why the euro project was a bad idea (the inability to deflate a currency as needed is one reason? What else).
I'll accept your opinion over that of the typical low resolution theorists here.
Also indicators from it's past, present and future?
In practical terms, having the euro and eu wide travel are amazingly convenient.
Some perks from our dark overlords to keep us happy?
I agree with all of the above except, don't tell me that the EU didn't know the books were cooked from dayone, as indeed most of the other poor Euro countries are. This is the confidence trick at the heart of the Euro which will either need top down Federal control of tax and interest ( it's self a red flag) or it will ultimately fail. Greece are only out of measures ( for now) with a state debt into perpetuity.
" | |||
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" I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. The EU isn't responsible for the economy of Greece. Greece is. Greece chose to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism, the precursor to currency union. The EU set criteria for being in the Euro and it was down to each country to fulfil that criteria. If they could, they were in. If they could not, they were not. What subsequently emerged was the role of one of the big global accountancy firms - I cannot remember which now. Greece hired them to fiddle their books so their economy looked as if it was within the parameters for entry to the Euro. (You may recall that Britain did not meet the criteria either, after crashing in the ERM, and opted not to pursue participation in the Euro as a result.) Greece chose to continue on the basis of false accounts. The choice was Greece's, no-one else's. I've just looked up how Greece fiddled their accounts to fit in with the EU's fiscal requirements, it's quite amazing the lengths they went to and not surprising the end mess they are now in. But yeah let's blame the EU for Greece's cover up
the other thing those nay-sayers also fail to recognise is that greece actually came out of their Eurozone/IMF bail out 6 months ago!!!
yes its touch what they have been tru and no one would say otherwise, but there economy is in far better shape for the changes they had to make than they were beforehand
having a state pension retirement age of 52 was unsustainable.... the rich not being chased to pay the taxes they owned was not sustainable
.
And yet there debt to GDP ratio was far better before entering the euro and still is higher than ever today!.
And all those things you mentioned were a constant before the euro, how come they only became unsustainable once they joined the euro?.
I am/was a remain voter but let's not pretend that the euro project was the most stupid and dangerous thing dreamt up by ideologue politicans ever conceived since Mao thought that famine was part of the cost for an agricultural revolution.
You seem well versed on economic matters...can you give a synopsis on why the euro project was a bad idea (the inability to deflate a currency as needed is one reason? What else).
I'll accept your opinion over that of the typical low resolution theorists here.
Also indicators from it's past, present and future?
In practical terms, having the euro and eu wide travel are amazingly convenient.
Some perks from our dark overlords to keep us happy?
". The main problem is it takes away free market decisions on pricing,ie the Greeks are shit with debt,taxes and budgets but borrow at costs like there AAA because there currency is tied to people who are good with debt. The whole point of having fair market pricing of currency is it takes away alot of labour cost competition and encourages governments to rational behaviour,one of the reasons Jeremy Corbyn (and the hard left) isn't keen on the EU is it restricts government ability to spend spend spend, this is a good thing we can all agree, however a crucial point of macro economics is when times are bad you actually want the government to spend spend spend to fill in the gap left by the free market recession, if the government also belt tightens at the same time as the private sector you get a GDP shortening faster than debt meaning no matter how hard you belt tighten your debt to GDP increases (as seen by Greece). The next problem with one currency for all is that we can't all be net exporters, money flows out from Greece to Germany and never comes back forever extending your need to increase debt to create new money which in single currencies is how it works, the Greeks currency would go down the Germans up and this mechanism stops the flow of money exporting because you can no longer afford BMW's, the Greeks money being worth less now means they have an exporting advantage and the flow reverses. The three main roles of government are interest rates, fiscal policy and monetary policy those three work in tandem, one is useless without the rest. | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. Oh and best not to mention how the EU was condemned by its own watchdog earlier this year for bending the rules on how they appointed Martin Selmayer to the position on Secretary General to the EU commission. Juncker amd Tusk don't give a fuck about EU rules when it's jobs for the boys in Brussels.
We were a basket case economy when we joined the EEC...". Not true I'm afraid, we were the fifth largest economy in the world and we're still no different. So if we were a basket case then were still a basket case and 50 years in the EU have done nothing.  | |||
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" I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. The EU isn't responsible for the economy of Greece. Greece is. Greece chose to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism, the precursor to currency union. The EU set criteria for being in the Euro and it was down to each country to fulfil that criteria. If they could, they were in. If they could not, they were not. What subsequently emerged was the role of one of the big global accountancy firms - I cannot remember which now. Greece hired them to fiddle their books so their economy looked as if it was within the parameters for entry to the Euro. (You may recall that Britain did not meet the criteria either, after crashing in the ERM, and opted not to pursue participation in the Euro as a result.) Greece chose to continue on the basis of false accounts. The choice was Greece's, no-one else's. I've just looked up how Greece fiddled their accounts to fit in with the EU's fiscal requirements, it's quite amazing the lengths they went to and not surprising the end mess they are now in. But yeah let's blame the EU for Greece's cover up
the other thing those nay-sayers also fail to recognise is that greece actually came out of their Eurozone/IMF bail out 6 months ago!!!
yes its touch what they have been tru and no one would say otherwise, but there economy is in far better shape for the changes they had to make than they were beforehand
having a state pension retirement age of 52 was unsustainable.... the rich not being chased to pay the taxes they owned was not sustainable
.
And yet there debt to GDP ratio was far better before entering the euro and still is higher than ever today!.
And all those things you mentioned were a constant before the euro, how come they only became unsustainable once they joined the euro?.
I am/was a remain voter but let's not pretend that the euro project was the most stupid and dangerous thing dreamt up by ideologue politicans ever conceived since Mao thought that famine was part of the cost for an agricultural revolution.
You seem well versed on economic matters...can you give a synopsis on why the euro project was a bad idea (the inability to deflate a currency as needed is one reason? What else).
I'll accept your opinion over that of the typical low resolution theorists here.
Also indicators from it's past, present and future?
In practical terms, having the euro and eu wide travel are amazingly convenient.
Some perks from our dark overlords to keep us happy?
.
The main problem is it takes away free market decisions on pricing,ie the Greeks are shit with debt,taxes and budgets but borrow at costs like there AAA because there currency is tied to people who are good with debt.
The whole point of having fair market pricing of currency is it takes away alot of labour cost competition and encourages governments to rational behaviour,one of the reasons Jeremy Corbyn (and the hard left) isn't keen on the EU is it restricts government ability to spend spend spend, this is a good thing we can all agree, however a crucial point of macro economics is when times are bad you actually want the government to spend spend spend to fill in the gap left by the free market recession, if the government also belt tightens at the same time as the private sector you get a GDP shortening faster than debt meaning no matter how hard you belt tighten your debt to GDP increases (as seen by Greece).
The next problem with one currency for all is that we can't all be net exporters, money flows out from Greece to Germany and never comes back forever extending your need to increase debt to create new money which in single currencies is how it works, the Greeks currency would go down the Germans up and this mechanism stops the flow of money exporting because you can no longer afford BMW's, the Greeks money being worth less now means they have an exporting advantage and the flow reverses.
The three main roles of government are interest rates, fiscal policy and monetary policy those three work in tandem, one is useless without the rest."All true, but the result of stuffing Greece (and others) full of debt is that they did spend spend spend. The Euro is a massive misguided fudge. A Honey Pot with the single objective of enlarging "The Project" and sod the consequences. Once in never out. | |||
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"Yes I agree with you, the whole point of the euro was the final nail in the coffin of never being able to leave, just like California could never leave the USA. That's the danger of leaving stuff to liberals, they never have a contingency plan as there absolutely sure there always right." I am not sure I would credit the EU bosses with a Liberal status, that would suggest a political conscience and an awareness of democracy | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. The EU isn't responsible for the economy of Greece. Greece is. Greece chose to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism, the precursor to currency union. The EU set criteria for being in the Euro and it was down to each country to fulfil that criteria. If they could, they were in. If they could not, they were not. What subsequently emerged was the role of one of the big global accountancy firms - I cannot remember which now. Greece hired them to fiddle their books so their economy looked as if it was within the parameters for entry to the Euro. (You may recall that Britain did not meet the criteria either, after crashing in the ERM, and opted not to pursue participation in the Euro as a result.) Greece chose to continue on the basis of false accounts. The choice was Greece's, no-one else's. I've just looked up how Greece fiddled their accounts to fit in with the EU's fiscal requirements, it's quite amazing the lengths they went to and not surprising the end mess they are now in. But yeah let's blame the EU for Greece's cover up
the other thing those nay-sayers also fail to recognise is that greece actually came out of their Eurozone/IMF bail out 6 months ago!!!
yes its touch what they have been tru and no one would say otherwise, but there economy is in far better shape for the changes they had to make than they were beforehand
having a state pension retirement age of 52 was unsustainable.... the rich not being chased to pay the taxes they owned was not sustainable
.
And yet there debt to GDP ratio was far better before entering the euro and still is higher than ever today!.
And all those things you mentioned were a constant before the euro, how come they only became unsustainable once they joined the euro?.
I am/was a remain voter but let's not pretend that the euro project was the most stupid and dangerous thing dreamt up by ideologue politicans ever conceived since Mao thought that famine was part of the cost for an agricultural revolution.
You seem well versed on economic matters...can you give a synopsis on why the euro project was a bad idea (the inability to deflate a currency as needed is one reason? What else).
I'll accept your opinion over that of the typical low resolution theorists here.
Also indicators from it's past, present and future?
In practical terms, having the euro and eu wide travel are amazingly convenient.
Some perks from our dark overlords to keep us happy?
.
The main problem is it takes away free market decisions on pricing,ie the Greeks are shit with debt,taxes and budgets but borrow at costs like there AAA because there currency is tied to people who are good with debt.
The whole point of having fair market pricing of currency is it takes away alot of labour cost competition and encourages governments to rational behaviour,one of the reasons Jeremy Corbyn (and the hard left) isn't keen on the EU is it restricts government ability to spend spend spend, this is a good thing we can all agree, however a crucial point of macro economics is when times are bad you actually want the government to spend spend spend to fill in the gap left by the free market recession, if the government also belt tightens at the same time as the private sector you get a GDP shortening faster than debt meaning no matter how hard you belt tighten your debt to GDP increases (as seen by Greece).
The next problem with one currency for all is that we can't all be net exporters, money flows out from Greece to Germany and never comes back forever extending your need to increase debt to create new money which in single currencies is how it works, the Greeks currency would go down the Germans up and this mechanism stops the flow of money exporting because you can no longer afford BMW's, the Greeks money being worth less now means they have an exporting advantage and the flow reverses.
The three main roles of government are interest rates, fiscal policy and monetary policy those three work in tandem, one is useless without the rest."I don’t agree with you on many things Alberto but that was a very succinct resume of why the quest to make the euro into the equivalent of the dollar or yuan in terms of a cross border federated currency which would replace national ones was such a short sighted move. I wonder if the euro had been used as an overarching currency, which individual nations own currencies would have been pegged against, would that have been a better concept? Ultimately there are a number of countries who through their own geographical problems (like Greece) will never be able to either produce or export goods or minerals to be economically effective and really the EU were extremely misguided in bringing these countries into the fold. | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. Oh and best not to mention how the EU was condemned by its own watchdog earlier this year for bending the rules on how they appointed Martin Selmayer to the position on Secretary General to the EU commission. Juncker amd Tusk don't give a fuck about EU rules when it's jobs for the boys in Brussels.
We were a basket case economy when we joined the EEC....
Not true I'm afraid, we were the fifth largest economy in the world and we're still no different.
So if we were a basket case then were still a basket case and 50 years in the EU have done nothing. "actually Albert.... the UK had just gotten an IMF bailout before the UK joined the EEC... hmmmm.... bailout... where does that sound familiar??? ... oh yeah all the people knocking Greece for getting one... funny old world that.... | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. Oh and best not to mention how the EU was condemned by its own watchdog earlier this year for bending the rules on how they appointed Martin Selmayer to the position on Secretary General to the EU commission. Juncker amd Tusk don't give a fuck about EU rules when it's jobs for the boys in Brussels.
We were a basket case economy when we joined the EEC....
Not true I'm afraid, we were the fifth largest economy in the world and we're still no different.
So if we were a basket case then were still a basket case and 50 years in the EU have done nothing.
actually Albert.... the UK had just gotten an IMF bailout before the UK joined the EEC...
hmmmm.... bailout... where does that sound familiar??? ... oh yeah all the people knocking Greece for getting one...
funny old world that...."The UK getting a bailout from the IMF in 1976 was a stark wake up call for the country, and arguably led to the rise of Mrs Thatcher and a lengthy period of Conservative government. | |||
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" I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. The EU isn't responsible for the economy of Greece. Greece is. Greece chose to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism, the precursor to currency union. The EU set criteria for being in the Euro and it was down to each country to fulfil that criteria. If they could, they were in. If they could not, they were not. What subsequently emerged was the role of one of the big global accountancy firms - I cannot remember which now. Greece hired them to fiddle their books so their economy looked as if it was within the parameters for entry to the Euro. (You may recall that Britain did not meet the criteria either, after crashing in the ERM, and opted not to pursue participation in the Euro as a result.) Greece chose to continue on the basis of false accounts. The choice was Greece's, no-one else's. I've just looked up how Greece fiddled their accounts to fit in with the EU's fiscal requirements, it's quite amazing the lengths they went to and not surprising the end mess they are now in. But yeah let's blame the EU for Greece's cover up
the other thing those nay-sayers also fail to recognise is that greece actually came out of their Eurozone/IMF bail out 6 months ago!!!
yes its touch what they have been tru and no one would say otherwise, but there economy is in far better shape for the changes they had to make than they were beforehand
having a state pension retirement age of 52 was unsustainable.... the rich not being chased to pay the taxes they owned was not sustainable
.
And yet there debt to GDP ratio was far better before entering the euro and still is higher than ever today!.
And all those things you mentioned were a constant before the euro, how come they only became unsustainable once they joined the euro?.
I am/was a remain voter but let's not pretend that the euro project was the most stupid and dangerous thing dreamt up by ideologue politicans ever conceived since Mao thought that famine was part of the cost for an agricultural revolution.
You seem well versed on economic matters...can you give a synopsis on why the euro project was a bad idea (the inability to deflate a currency as needed is one reason? What else).
I'll accept your opinion over that of the typical low resolution theorists here.
Also indicators from it's past, present and future?
In practical terms, having the euro and eu wide travel are amazingly convenient.
Some perks from our dark overlords to keep us happy?
.
The main problem is it takes away free market decisions on pricing,ie the Greeks are shit with debt,taxes and budgets but borrow at costs like there AAA because there currency is tied to people who are good with debt.
The whole point of having fair market pricing of currency is it takes away alot of labour cost competition and encourages governments to rational behaviour,one of the reasons Jeremy Corbyn (and the hard left) isn't keen on the EU is it restricts government ability to spend spend spend, this is a good thing we can all agree, however a crucial point of macro economics is when times are bad you actually want the government to spend spend spend to fill in the gap left by the free market recession, if the government also belt tightens at the same time as the private sector you get a GDP shortening faster than debt meaning no matter how hard you belt tighten your debt to GDP increases (as seen by Greece).
The next problem with one currency for all is that we can't all be net exporters, money flows out from Greece to Germany and never comes back forever extending your need to increase debt to create new money which in single currencies is how it works, the Greeks currency would go down the Germans up and this mechanism stops the flow of money exporting because you can no longer afford BMW's, the Greeks money being worth less now means they have an exporting advantage and the flow reverses.
The three main roles of government are interest rates, fiscal policy and monetary policy those three work in tandem, one is useless without the rest.
I don’t agree with you on many things Alberto but that was a very succinct resume of why the quest to make the euro into the equivalent of the dollar or yuan in terms of a cross border federated currency which would replace national ones was such a short sighted move. I wonder if the euro had been used as an overarching currency, which individual nations own currencies would have been pegged against, would that have been a better concept? Ultimately there are a number of countries who through their own geographical problems (like Greece) will never be able to either produce or export goods or minerals to be economically effective and really the EU were extremely misguided in bringing these countries into the fold. ". Political Union and monetary union are two different things as can be seen with the UK and the EU, we've made out just fine with just political Union just as Greece could have. Under EU rules of course Greece had to adopt the euro just like everybody else. It won't work, sooner or later southern Europe will hit the buffers and we'll ALL be fucked then. Italy hasn't grown in GDP since it joined the euro in the 90s, twenty years of nothingness while all the time increasing its debt, not via government but via personal debt (it's the same thing at a macro level). There's only two outcomes to this, somebody needs to take a massive hair cut (Germans) or Italy will fail and fall out of the euro along with Portugal, Greece, Spain and now increasingly looking like France as well. | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. Oh and best not to mention how the EU was condemned by its own watchdog earlier this year for bending the rules on how they appointed Martin Selmayer to the position on Secretary General to the EU commission. Juncker amd Tusk don't give a fuck about EU rules when it's jobs for the boys in Brussels.
We were a basket case economy when we joined the EEC....
Not true I'm afraid, we were the fifth largest economy in the world and we're still no different.
So if we were a basket case then were still a basket case and 50 years in the EU have done nothing.
actually Albert.... the UK had just gotten an IMF bailout before the UK joined the EEC...
hmmmm.... bailout... where does that sound familiar??? ... oh yeah all the people knocking Greece for getting one...
funny old world that....". Again not true, we agreed one but never used it. | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. Oh and best not to mention how the EU was condemned by its own watchdog earlier this year for bending the rules on how they appointed Martin Selmayer to the position on Secretary General to the EU commission. Juncker amd Tusk don't give a fuck about EU rules when it's jobs for the boys in Brussels.
We were a basket case economy when we joined the EEC....
Not true I'm afraid, we were the fifth largest economy in the world and we're still no different.
So if we were a basket case then were still a basket case and 50 years in the EU have done nothing.
actually Albert.... the UK had just gotten an IMF bailout before the UK joined the EEC...
hmmmm.... bailout... where does that sound familiar??? ... oh yeah all the people knocking Greece for getting one...
funny old world that.....
Again not true, we agreed one but never used it."again albert... not true... the UK took a "then" £3.9 billion pound" bailout from the IMF in 1976....... that is worth almost £17 billion in todays money...... | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. Oh and best not to mention how the EU was condemned by its own watchdog earlier this year for bending the rules on how they appointed Martin Selmayer to the position on Secretary General to the EU commission. Juncker amd Tusk don't give a fuck about EU rules when it's jobs for the boys in Brussels.
We were a basket case economy when we joined the EEC....
Not true I'm afraid, we were the fifth largest economy in the world and we're still no different.
So if we were a basket case then were still a basket case and 50 years in the EU have done nothing.
actually Albert.... the UK had just gotten an IMF bailout before the UK joined the EEC...
hmmmm.... bailout... where does that sound familiar??? ... oh yeah all the people knocking Greece for getting one...
funny old world that.....
Again not true, we agreed one but never used it."I think we did use it in the sense it strengthen our balance sheet and allowed us to borrow and trade our (OWN) way out of the shit. Back then of course the EEC was exactly what it said on the tin, | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. Oh and best not to mention how the EU was condemned by its own watchdog earlier this year for bending the rules on how they appointed Martin Selmayer to the position on Secretary General to the EU commission. Juncker amd Tusk don't give a fuck about EU rules when it's jobs for the boys in Brussels.
We were a basket case economy when we joined the EEC....
Not true I'm afraid, we were the fifth largest economy in the world and we're still no different.
So if we were a basket case then were still a basket case and 50 years in the EU have done nothing.
actually Albert.... the UK had just gotten an IMF bailout before the UK joined the EEC...
hmmmm.... bailout... where does that sound familiar??? ... oh yeah all the people knocking Greece for getting one...
funny old world that.....
Again not true, we agreed one but never used it.
I think we did use it in the sense it strengthen our balance sheet and allowed us to borrow and trade our (OWN) way out of the shit. Back then of course the EEC was exactly what it said on the tin,". That was my point, we never actually used the money, to be honest the money doesn't actually exist in the first place anyhow, it is as you said a balance sheet exercise. In effect the ECB is trying to do the same thing with Greece via a bond buying scheme, but as I said it's pointless if Greece doesn't have. 1 the ability to print money. 2 the ability to control interest rates. All that leaves them with is fiscal policy, meaning they can shrink government debt which means the GDP shrinks while at the same time the private sector sinks because they don't have the ability to boost it via monetary policy and currency inflation, which is why the UK never actually used the IMF loan. Just look what happened to the GBP dollar valuation.3 dollars to 1.4 dollars, that's effectively just doubled the cost of American goods. My argument would actually be that the UK got what it deserved by artificially keeping the pound high through the late 60s early 70s period until that snapped in the 70s energy crises, at that point it became about how productive you were and we weren't good at that at all. We really haven't learnt that much as we still fall into this mistake but overcome it by creating the protection of the single market. Works for awhile but like the 70s takes a global shock (this time banking debt) and poof it all unravels. | |||
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"@albert...if the euro is so weak, how did it survive 2008? I skimmed your answer and will come back to it later. You argued that countries need to be able to create more debt by printing money...I'm not so sure, it's a very fine balance. " . No only during recessions when the private sector belt tightens. The answer to your first question is it didn't, it's a dead man walking. | |||
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"@albert...if the euro is so weak, how did it survive 2008? I skimmed your answer and will come back to it later. You argued that countries need to be able to create more debt by printing money...I'm not so sure, it's a very fine balance. . No only during recessions when the private sector belt tightens. The answer to your first question is it didn't, it's a dead man walking. " No it's not
Evidence over opinion | |||
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"I live in the poorest region of Western Europe. Regarding the future of that area - I’d far rather place it in the hands of those three and the EU rather than a Conservative party dominated by Brexiteers like WR-M, BJ and IDS. I’m centrist, union-supporting, sometime Tory voter btw) I find this sentiment a little depressing and defeatist. Ask Greece if they are happy with the EU's stewardship of their economy. How about the Greeks ask if they have been happy with their own Government's handling of their own economy. Greece's economy was so fucked it was beyond belief & needed drastic measures to slowly get out of their self inflicted economic disaster. and yes, their still on that path but it's going to be a bloody long path to travel. ah yes greece who by the eu s own rules should of never been let in.but swept there fcked economy under the carpet so the could have another basket case country in there club lol To paraphrase Jordan Peterson...predictability is the hallmark of ideology. Do you people even have a vocabulary of your own or do you have to parrot everything you read? "Basket case" lol yep basket case economy and the eu knew it was and still let them join. Yep, it's funny how the EU can bend the rules when it suits. Oh and best not to mention how the EU was condemned by its own watchdog earlier this year for bending the rules on how they appointed Martin Selmayer to the position on Secretary General to the EU commission. Juncker amd Tusk don't give a fuck about EU rules when it's jobs for the boys in Brussels.
We were a basket case economy when we joined the EEC....
Not true I'm afraid, we were the fifth largest economy in the world and we're still no different.
So if we were a basket case then were still a basket case and 50 years in the EU have done nothing.
actually Albert.... the UK had just gotten an IMF bailout before the UK joined the EEC...
hmmmm.... bailout... where does that sound familiar??? ... oh yeah all the people knocking Greece for getting one...
funny old world that.....
Again not true, we agreed one but never used it.
I think we did use it in the sense it strengthen our balance sheet and allowed us to borrow and trade our (OWN) way out of the shit. Back then of course the EEC was exactly what it said on the tin,.
That was my point, we never actually used the money, to be honest the money doesn't actually exist in the first place anyhow, it is as you said a balance sheet exercise.
In effect the ECB is trying to do the same thing with Greece via a bond buying scheme, but as I said it's pointless if Greece doesn't have.
1 the ability to print money.
2 the ability to control interest rates.
All that leaves them with is fiscal policy, meaning they can shrink government debt which means the GDP shrinks while at the same time the private sector sinks because they don't have the ability to boost it via monetary policy and currency inflation, which is why the UK never actually used the IMF loan.
Just look what happened to the GBP dollar valuation.3 dollars to 1.4 dollars, that's effectively just doubled the cost of American goods.
My argument would actually be that the UK got what it deserved by artificially keeping the pound high through the late 60s early 70s period until that snapped in the 70s energy crises, at that point it became about how productive you were and we weren't good at that at all.
We really haven't learnt that much as we still fall into this mistake but overcome it by creating the protection of the single market.
Works for awhile but like the 70s takes a global shock (this time banking debt) and poof it all unravels."This is interesting and good stuff, we are on the same page. I lived through the 70"s working 3 day week power cuts etc boy were we f---ed. Dear old Gordon B did us two massive favours, independence of the Bank of England and keeping Blair at arms length on joining the Euro. | |||
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"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple .. "Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction. | |||
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"@albert...if the euro is so weak, how did it survive 2008? I skimmed your answer and will come back to it later. You argued that countries need to be able to create more debt by printing money...I'm not so sure, it's a very fine balance. . No only during recessions when the private sector belt tightens. The answer to your first question is it didn't, it's a dead man walking. No it's not
Evidence over opinion ". Ok let's say it's got a fundamental long term flaw, picking when that flaw gives way is a tricky business, hell I'd be in Argentina by now if I could give you a date. Maybe they'll federalise before it manifests who knows, I don't think they will though and so I'm confident in its downfall. | |||
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"@albert...if the euro is so weak, how did it survive 2008? I skimmed your answer and will come back to it later. You argued that countries need to be able to create more debt by printing money...I'm not so sure, it's a very fine balance. . No only during recessions when the private sector belt tightens. The answer to your first question is it didn't, it's a dead man walking. No it's not
Evidence over opinion .
Ok let's say it's got a fundamental long term flaw, picking when that flaw gives way is a tricky business, hell I'd be in Argentina by now if I could give you a date.
Maybe they'll federalise before it manifests who knows, I don't think they will though and so I'm confident in its downfall."Political instability will come first in all directions, it's something we are all going to face, global level, which will make Brexit look like a storm in a tea cup. And that's from an eternal optimist. | |||
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"@albert...if the euro is so weak, how did it survive 2008? I skimmed your answer and will come back to it later. You argued that countries need to be able to create more debt by printing money...I'm not so sure, it's a very fine balance. . No only during recessions when the private sector belt tightens. The answer to your first question is it didn't, it's a dead man walking. No it's not
Evidence over opinion .
Ok let's say it's got a fundamental long term flaw, picking when that flaw gives way is a tricky business, hell I'd be in Argentina by now if I could give you a date.
Maybe they'll federalise before it manifests who knows, I don't think they will though and so I'm confident in its downfall."You're better than the stopped clock theory. | |||
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"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction."There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep... | |||
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"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep... "thats a line from a levellers song aint it? | |||
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"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep... "Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people. | |||
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"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people. "The middle is a desolate lonely wasteland of shit old ideas and has been politics. Populism is the order of the day.. Go with the flow,ride that wave. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people. "Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle". The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people.
Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle".
The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people! "Nope...low resolution people are naturally drawn to the low resolution theories....the brexit dividend, making America great again, gender pay gap, r*pe culture, a multiverse of genders... All that shite Basically if you get your politics pre-chewed single blog posts or even tweets | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people.
Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle".
The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people!
Nope...low resolution people are naturally drawn to the low resolution theories....the brexit dividend, making America great again, gender pay gap, r*pe culture, a multiverse of genders... All that shite
Basically if you get your politics pre-chewed single blog posts or even tweets "My mistake, I forgot it was the home of the know it all! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people.
Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle".
The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people!
Nope...low resolution people are naturally drawn to the low resolution theories....the brexit dividend, making America great again, gender pay gap, r*pe culture, a multiverse of genders... All that shite
Basically if you get your politics pre-chewed single blog posts or even tweets
My mistake, I forgot it was the home of the know it all! "Glass house? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people.
Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle".
The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people!
Nope...low resolution people are naturally drawn to the low resolution theories....the brexit dividend, making America great again, gender pay gap, r*pe culture, a multiverse of genders... All that shite
Basically if you get your politics pre-chewed single blog posts or even tweets
My mistake, I forgot it was the home of the know it all!
Glass house?"I only buy standard construction!You best board your orangery up as you are another who always knows best! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people.
Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle".
The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people!
Nope...low resolution people are naturally drawn to the low resolution theories....the brexit dividend, making America great again, gender pay gap, r*pe culture, a multiverse of genders... All that shite
Basically if you get your politics pre-chewed single blog posts or even tweets
My mistake, I forgot it was the home of the know it all!
Glass house?
I only buy standard construction!You best board your orangery up as you are another who always knows best! "Oh and there I was thinking the same about you! What is standard construction btw? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people.
Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle".
The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people!
Nope...low resolution people are naturally drawn to the low resolution theories....the brexit dividend, making America great again, gender pay gap, r*pe culture, a multiverse of genders... All that shite
Basically if you get your politics pre-chewed single blog posts or even tweets
My mistake, I forgot it was the home of the know it all!
Glass house?
I only buy standard construction!You best board your orangery up as you are another who always knows best!
Oh and there I was thinking the same about you! What is standard construction btw? "Standard building construction- bricks and mortar with a tiled roof.Glass houses definitely don't fall into this category! It's always good to teach a know it all something! Lol | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people.
Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle".
The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people!
Nope...low resolution people are naturally drawn to the low resolution theories....the brexit dividend, making America great again, gender pay gap, r*pe culture, a multiverse of genders... All that shite
Basically if you get your politics pre-chewed single blog posts or even tweets
My mistake, I forgot it was the home of the know it all!
Glass house?
I only buy standard construction!You best board your orangery up as you are another who always knows best!
Oh and there I was thinking the same about you! What is standard construction btw?
Standard building construction- bricks and mortar with a tiled roof.Glass houses definitely don't fall into this category!
It's always good to teach a know it all something! Lol
"Well you had better try a bit harder or read a few books mate as personally I specialise in timber frame myself but what the fuck would you know about construction apart from making stupid and ignorant comments about standard building construction - after all it’s easy to speak about the things we think we know isn’t it but experience gives one knowledge doesn’t it sweety | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people.
Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle".
The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people!
Nope...low resolution people are naturally drawn to the low resolution theories....the brexit dividend, making America great again, gender pay gap, r*pe culture, a multiverse of genders... All that shite
Basically if you get your politics pre-chewed single blog posts or even tweets "What on earth does gender identity have to do with a Brexit Dividend? I think you should turn the "low resolution" mirror on yourself. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people.
Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle".
The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people!
Nope...low resolution people are naturally drawn to the low resolution theories....the brexit dividend, making America great again, gender pay gap, r*pe culture, a multiverse of genders... All that shite
Basically if you get your politics pre-chewed single blog posts or even tweets
What on earth does gender identity have to do with a Brexit Dividend?
I think you should turn the "low resolution" mirror on yourself. "And the gender pay gap for that matter. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple .. "We need the EU to succeed for us to succeed, if the EU collapses we will be taken down with them economically. Why anyone would ever say they'd like to see our closest trading partners to fail is beyond me but there's quite a few on here. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people.
Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle".
The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people!
Nope...low resolution people are naturally drawn to the low resolution theories....the brexit dividend, making America great again, gender pay gap, r*pe culture, a multiverse of genders... All that shite
Basically if you get your politics pre-chewed single blog posts or even tweets
What on earth does gender identity have to do with a Brexit Dividend?
I think you should turn the "low resolution" mirror on yourself. "Both are dripping in ideological bullshit. Seemingly logical but only when your starting premises are broken. Pre-chewed, easily swallowed. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Why anyone would ever say they'd like to see our closest trading partners to fail is beyond me but there's quite a few on here." It's not beyond me. Once someone has picked a side and developed emotions around their stance it's amazing what lies they can tell themselves. That...or they are thick...want the euro to fail but don't realise that things are connected. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people.
Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle".
The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people!
Nope...low resolution people are naturally drawn to the low resolution theories....the brexit dividend, making America great again, gender pay gap, r*pe culture, a multiverse of genders... All that shite
Basically if you get your politics pre-chewed single blog posts or even tweets
My mistake, I forgot it was the home of the know it all!
Glass house?
I only buy standard construction!You best board your orangery up as you are another who always knows best!
Oh and there I was thinking the same about you! What is standard construction btw?
Standard building construction- bricks and mortar with a tiled roof.Glass houses definitely don't fall into this category!
It's always good to teach a know it all something! Lol
Well you had better try a bit harder or read a few books mate as personally I specialise in timber frame myself but what the fuck would you know about construction apart from making stupid and ignorant comments about standard building construction - after all it’s easy to speak about the things we think we know isn’t it but experience gives one knowledge doesn’t it sweety "Temper, temper! You have evidently never taken out any building insurance in your lifetime as that is where they will ask if your property is of standard construction!I am well aware of timber frame construction and the issues they had when first being used in this country, the insurance companies didn't want to touch them!These issues are sorted now. Keep putting the ARSE in to Hole know it all! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"When will the brexiters stop predicting the collapse of the Euro and the EU anyone would of thought it's a prerequisite for brexit to succeed . The EU and Euro isn't going anywhere.If any currency is going off the cliff it's sterling... Wake up sheeple ..
Who knows I might be pro brexit anti eu but I do keep an open mind and wish for the best and hope that we as a Nation will come up with good solutions regardless, glass half full silver linings etc. From one Sheepal to another, that's the trouble with a Referendum, you end up with to flocks of sheep, ultimately all tend to eventually go in the same direction.
There's only one way in life and that's your own.Im going the opposite direction to the sheep...
Sure you are
It's like there's a two sided cliff with lemmings going in each direction.
The centre is the only place to be, watching and laughing as ideology gets the better of people.
Sounds more like you are the "piggy in the middle".
The centre the place of low resolution theories for low resolution people!
Nope...low resolution people are naturally drawn to the low resolution theories....the brexit dividend, making America great again, gender pay gap, r*pe culture, a multiverse of genders... All that shite
Basically if you get your politics pre-chewed single blog posts or even tweets
My mistake, I forgot it was the home of the know it all!
Glass house?
I only buy standard construction!You best board your orangery up as you are another who always knows best!
Oh and there I was thinking the same about you! What is standard construction btw?
Standard building construction- bricks and mortar with a tiled roof.Glass houses definitely don't fall into this category!
It's always good to teach a know it all something! Lol
Well you had better try a bit harder or read a few books mate as personally I specialise in timber frame myself but what the fuck would you know about construction apart from making stupid and ignorant comments about standard building construction - after all it’s easy to speak about the things we think we know isn’t it but experience gives one knowledge doesn’t it sweety "Ps What's with the sweety bit!? You are not another Fab straight guy are you!? Very strange! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Ps What's with the sweety bit!? You are not another Fab straight guy are you!? Very strange! "Such high standards of debate we have here | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Ps What's with the sweety bit!? You are not another Fab straight guy are you!? Very strange!
Such high standards of debate we have here "I was curious (not in that way!) why someone would address another male as "Sweety"! Not something I would ever think about doing, all a bit strange to me! | |||
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| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Why anyone would ever say they'd like to see our closest trading partners to fail is beyond me but there's quite a few on here. It's not beyond me. Once someone has picked a side and developed emotions around their stance it's amazing what lies they can tell themselves. That...or they are thick...want the euro to fail but don't realise that things are connected. " . If you read up further, you'll notice I said I believe we need to "fix" the euro as that's more important than brexit, never said I want it to collapse, in fact I even said what a disaster it would be for EVERYBODY. It has no economic benefit to any southern European country but alas the EUs policy has always been Chuck money at them for roads and bridges as a sweetener. Sooner or later there going to realise that Germanys currency should not be valued lower than the pound or for that matter the dollar. China gets lots of political stick for it's own currency manipulation and rightly so!!. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Why anyone would ever say they'd like to see our closest trading partners to fail is beyond me but there's quite a few on here. It's not beyond me. Once someone has picked a side and developed emotions around their stance it's amazing what lies they can tell themselves. That...or they are thick...want the euro to fail but don't realise that things are connected. . If you read up further, you'll notice I said I believe we need to "fix" the euro as that's more important than brexit, never said I want it to collapse, in fact I even said what a disaster it would be for EVERYBODY. It has no economic benefit to any southern European country but alas the EUs policy has always been Chuck money at them for roads and bridges as a sweetener. Sooner or later there going to realise that Germanys currency should not be valued lower than the pound or for that matter the dollar. China gets lots of political stick for it's own currency manipulation and rightly so!!." I wasn't talking about you...but while we are here, how do you fix the euro? I'd also like to see some evidence that the euro + eu membership has been bad for south European countries. It's a very loose sounding statement you are making. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Why anyone would ever say they'd like to see our closest trading partners to fail is beyond me but there's quite a few on here. It's not beyond me. Once someone has picked a side and developed emotions around their stance it's amazing what lies they can tell themselves. That...or they are thick...want the euro to fail but don't realise that things are connected. . If you read up further, you'll notice I said I believe we need to "fix" the euro as that's more important than brexit, never said I want it to collapse, in fact I even said what a disaster it would be for EVERYBODY. It has no economic benefit to any southern European country but alas the EUs policy has always been Chuck money at them for roads and bridges as a sweetener. Sooner or later there going to realise that Germanys currency should not be valued lower than the pound or for that matter the dollar. China gets lots of political stick for it's own currency manipulation and rightly so!!. I wasn't talking about you...but while we are here, how do you fix the euro? I'd also like to see some evidence that the euro + eu membership has been bad for south European countries. It's a very loose sounding statement you are making. " . I don't think EU membership is any problem, Italy grew fine for decades with EU membership it's had zero growth in real terms though since adopting the euro. There is no fix for the euro single currency just doesn't fit all countries just like the UK couldn't run on the krona. Personally I haven't read any solutions except a political one maybe and that's federalism. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Why anyone would ever say they'd like to see our closest trading partners to fail is beyond me but there's quite a few on here. It's not beyond me. Once someone has picked a side and developed emotions around their stance it's amazing what lies they can tell themselves. That...or they are thick...want the euro to fail but don't realise that things are connected. . If you read up further, you'll notice I said I believe we need to "fix" the euro as that's more important than brexit, never said I want it to collapse, in fact I even said what a disaster it would be for EVERYBODY. It has no economic benefit to any southern European country but alas the EUs policy has always been Chuck money at them for roads and bridges as a sweetener. Sooner or later there going to realise that Germanys currency should not be valued lower than the pound or for that matter the dollar. China gets lots of political stick for it's own currency manipulation and rightly so!!. I wasn't talking about you...but while we are here, how do you fix the euro? I'd also like to see some evidence that the euro + eu membership has been bad for south European countries. It's a very loose sounding statement you are making. . I don't think EU membership is any problem, Italy grew fine for decades with EU membership it's had zero growth in real terms though since adopting the euro. There is no fix for the euro single currency just doesn't fit all countries just like the UK couldn't run on the krona. Personally I haven't read any solutions except a political one maybe and that's federalism." So you are talking nonsense about it just needs to be fixed. The "failed project" has yet to fail. The Lindy effect is kicking in. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Why anyone would ever say they'd like to see our closest trading partners to fail is beyond me but there's quite a few on here. It's not beyond me. Once someone has picked a side and developed emotions around their stance it's amazing what lies they can tell themselves. That...or they are thick...want the euro to fail but don't realise that things are connected. . If you read up further, you'll notice I said I believe we need to "fix" the euro as that's more important than brexit, never said I want it to collapse, in fact I even said what a disaster it would be for EVERYBODY. It has no economic benefit to any southern European country but alas the EUs policy has always been Chuck money at them for roads and bridges as a sweetener. Sooner or later there going to realise that Germanys currency should not be valued lower than the pound or for that matter the dollar. China gets lots of political stick for it's own currency manipulation and rightly so!!. I wasn't talking about you...but while we are here, how do you fix the euro? I'd also like to see some evidence that the euro + eu membership has been bad for south European countries. It's a very loose sounding statement you are making. . I don't think EU membership is any problem, Italy grew fine for decades with EU membership it's had zero growth in real terms though since adopting the euro. There is no fix for the euro single currency just doesn't fit all countries just like the UK couldn't run on the krona. Personally I haven't read any solutions except a political one maybe and that's federalism. So you are talking nonsense about it just needs to be fixed. The "failed project" has yet to fail. The Lindy effect is kicking in. " . I don't know what 20 years of zero growth is if isn't a failure, what would you call it?. Personally I think it's a divorce from reality by elitists, they assume stuff like Italy, Spain and Greece will suddenly transform into Germany over night, that hundreds of years of culture and work ethic will suddenly be replaced by overt time keeping, there was a very sound economic reason who Italy, Spain and Greece etc had exchange rates of hundreds or thousands to 1 you know and you don't just transform that with monetary policy. | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You are awfully mired in the past. Is that your overall argument, a difference in work ethic? Have you met many young Spanish or Italian people lately? "Very true - the ones I have met are working six days a week and often in two jobs at the same time. They know how shit everything is at home and they are over here because even a low paid job is better than nothing. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You are awfully mired in the past. Is that your overall argument, a difference in work ethic? Have you met many young Spanish or Italian people lately?
Very true - the ones I have met are working six days a week and often in two jobs at the same time. They know how shit everything is at home and they are over here because even a low paid job is better than nothing."So you're admitting that being in the EU has been a complete pile of shit for Spain and Italy then. Your words = "they know how shit everything is at home". | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You are awfully mired in the past. Is that your overall argument, a difference in work ethic? Have you met many young Spanish or Italian people lately?
Very true - the ones I have met are working six days a week and often in two jobs at the same time. They know how shit everything is at home and they are over here because even a low paid job is better than nothing.
So you're admitting that being in the EU has been a complete pile of shit for Spain and Italy then. Your words = "they know how shit everything is at home". "Get a grip. When were you last in Spain or Italy? There's plenty happening. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You are awfully mired in the past. Is that your overall argument, a difference in work ethic? Have you met many young Spanish or Italian people lately?
Very true - the ones I have met are working six days a week and often in two jobs at the same time. They know how shit everything is at home and they are over here because even a low paid job is better than nothing.
So you're admitting that being in the EU has been a complete pile of shit for Spain and Italy then. Your words = "they know how shit everything is at home".
Get a grip.
When were you last in Spain or Italy? There's plenty happening. "I was last in Spain in October, good for tourists like you and me, not so good for the native population who can't get a job. As for Italy, yes lots happening there like an anti EU, Eurosceptic government being elected and an Italian budget they've put forward which the EU have rejected. Shit is going to hit the fan between Italy and the EU in March/April when this Italian budget saga comes to a head. | |||
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"Spanish growth 2.5% for 2018 Italy 0.7% UK 1.5% EU 1.9%" Youth unemployment in Spain 34% Youth unemployment in Italy 32% Youth unemployment in UK 11.5% Overall unemployment in Spain 15% Overall unemployment in Italy 10% Overall unemployment in the UK 4% | |||
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"Spanish growth 2.5% for 2018 Italy 0.7% UK 1.5% EU 1.9% Youth unemployment in Spain 34% Youth unemployment in Italy 32% Youth unemployment in UK 11.5% Overall unemployment in Spain 15% Overall unemployment in Italy 10% Overall unemployment in the UK 4%" But how would 1.8m zero hours contracts effect that figure? | |||
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"my thoughts exactly so why are so many people in love with the EU when these creeps are in charge The British are not in love with it, 17.4 million of us voted to leave.
Europeans are falling out of love with it as well, as Eurosceptic parties are gaining more votes with each passing election. "It only leaves 48.6m to be led into something they didn’t vote for... | |||
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"Wow mate - it took you three posts to try and take a pop at me - you need to try a bit harder son, you really do! "I didn't realise we were related but if you are looking for someone to call you dad best get registered on Fabguys, they won't mind you calling them sweety!Slightly Foxed more like completely out foxed! Lol :- | |||
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"Spanish growth 2.5% for 2018 Italy 0.7% UK 1.5% EU 1.9% Youth unemployment in Spain 34% Youth unemployment in Italy 32% Youth unemployment in UK 11.5% Overall unemployment in Spain 15% Overall unemployment in Italy 10% Overall unemployment in the UK 4%" Do think think a no deal exit will improve our 4% unemployment figure Centaur ? | |||
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"Wow mate - it took you three posts to try and take a pop at me - you need to try a bit harder son, you really do!
I didn't realise we were related but if you are looking for someone to call you dad best get registered on Fabguys, they won't mind you calling them sweety!Slightly Foxed more like completely out foxed! Lol
:- "Ha ha still spluttering into your cocoa are you old timer? If you think calling someone gay to insult them is ok then you really need to go and slime back under the rock you crawled out from under  | |||
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"Wow mate - it took you three posts to try and take a pop at me - you need to try a bit harder son, you really do!
I didn't realise we were related but if you are looking for someone to call you dad best get registered on Fabguys, they won't mind you calling them sweety!Slightly Foxed more like completely out foxed! Lol
:-
Ha ha still spluttering into your cocoa are you old timer? If you think calling someone gay to insult them is ok then you really need to go and slime back under the rock you crawled out from under "When did I call you gay!?Just pointing a pensioner in the right direction! Lol | |||
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"You are awfully mired in the past. Is that your overall argument, a difference in work ethic? Have you met many young Spanish or Italian people lately? ". Yes I was working with four Italians today, along side four Romanians and two Portuguese and no that wasn't my overall argument clearly,I mean there's thousands of smaller differences betweens Southern European countries themselves let alone South to North or North of Italy to South of Italy but in a general broad sense paragraph without writing war and peace I was hoping it made the point. | |||
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