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Remembrance Day?
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In all conscience I will not stand by while the world built by the generations that fought two Great Wars is left to turn feral in the hands of right-wing populists and indifferent politicians. Too many people died and too many lives were cut short or mangled for me to accept that the architecture of fascism being built by demagogues in Europe, the US and Asia should be allowed to go unchallenged.
It's all very well to wear your Poppy with pride on Remembrance Day next Sunday, and I will be, but when we say "lest we forget' remember that it's not just the dead we remember, it's what they died for. They didn't die for populists and demagogues to make a more disunited world based on mistrust and contempt for foreigners, where the possibility of conflict and war seem far more likely than ever before in my life.
Lest we forget! |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
They fought because there imperialist rulers on both sides made them,what has been added is idealism and romance.
The nasty treaty that ended this war caused the second as Germany was oppressed so much that it allowed Hitler to flourish.
In simple terms that is a lot of the story |
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"They fought because there imperialist rulers on both sides made them,what has been added is idealism and romance.
The nasty treaty that ended this war caused the second as Germany was oppressed so much that it allowed Hitler to flourish.
In simple terms that is a lot of the story"
I think you need to recheck your history.
Britain, in 1914, was not ruled by an imperialist king or emperor. It was PM Asquith, on 4 August 1914, who made the decision to declare war on Germany because, on order to implement the Schlieffen Plan for the invasion of France, Germany invaded Belgium which Britain had, by treaty with since 1839, a duty and obligation to defend.
It's also debatable whether the rise of Hitler or the cause of the second one was the result of "The nasty treaty". Whilst it no doubt contributed a far greater cause was the economic crisis caused by the world wide depression. This caused people in Germany and other countries to look for other people to blame and simple solutions to their problems, with the consequent rise in demagogs and populists.
There are a lot of things my country has done throughout its long history that I cannot look back on with bride but defending democracy in Europe, whether from a militaristic King or a totalitarian dictator, is not one of them.
To be frank I find your comments that my Grandfather and his friends fought, risked their lives and many died for imperialists and that the idealism they actually fought for was a later added after thought, both disrespectfull and insulting to their memory. I know what he fought and risked his life for because he told me, and it wasn't anything to do with imperialism or imperialists.
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Simply put, if those ordinary people had not made extraordinary sacrifices, then where would we be now?
No freedoms as we now enjoy.
No non Anglo Saxon influence.
No personal freedom to speak out.
No libertine lifestyles.
Those that often bemoan the reasons for going to war are those with the most to lose had those generations not answered the call. |
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"We remember all those who have given their lives in all conflicts"
A mother. A wife, mourns for a husband, a son or a daughter. That fought and lost their lives on foreign soil. Never to return home to their loved ones. They fought to keep the nations enemy from our shores. A 100 years on. Our enemies now walk amongst us. Sad. very sad.
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"We remember all those who have given their lives in all conflictsA mother. A wife, mourns for a husband, a son or a daughter. That fought and lost their lives on foreign soil. Never to return home to their loved ones. They fought to keep the nations enemy from our shores. A 100 years on. Our enemies now walk amongst us. Sad. very sad."
I'm not sure what you mean "our enemies now walk amongst us". Non of my enemies walk with me. |
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"They fought because there imperialist rulers on both sides made them,what has been added is idealism and romance.
The nasty treaty that ended this war caused the second as Germany was oppressed so much that it allowed Hitler to flourish.
In simple terms that is a lot of the story
I think you need to recheck your history.
Britain, in 1914, was not ruled by an imperialist king or emperor. It was PM Asquith, on 4 August 1914, who made the decision to declare war on Germany because, on order to implement the Schlieffen Plan for the invasion of France, Germany invaded Belgium which Britain had, by treaty with since 1839, a duty and obligation to defend.
It's also debatable whether the rise of Hitler or the cause of the second one was the result of "The nasty treaty". Whilst it no doubt contributed a far greater cause was the economic crisis caused by the world wide depression. This caused people in Germany and other countries to look for other people to blame and simple solutions to their problems, with the consequent rise in demagogs and populists.
There are a lot of things my country has done throughout its long history that I cannot look back on with bride but defending democracy in Europe, whether from a militaristic King or a totalitarian dictator, is not one of them.
To be frank I find your comments that my Grandfather and his friends fought, risked their lives and many died for imperialists and that the idealism they actually fought for was a later added after thought, both disrespectfull and insulting to their memory. I know what he fought and risked his life for because he told me, and it wasn't anything to do with imperialism or imperialists.
"
Ironic then that you support an undemocratic organisation like the EU. |
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"In all conscience I will not stand by while the world built by the generations that fought two Great Wars is left to turn feral in the hands of right-wing populists and indifferent politicians. Too many people died and too many lives were cut short or mangled for me to accept that the architecture of fascism being built by demagogues in Europe, the US and Asia should be allowed to go unchallenged.
It's all very well to wear your Poppy with pride on Remembrance Day next Sunday, and I will be, but when we say "lest we forget' remember that it's not just the dead we remember, it's what they died for. They didn't die for populists and demagogues to make a more disunited world based on mistrust and contempt for foreigners, where the possibility of conflict and war seem far more likely than ever before in my life.
Lest we forget!"
My grandfather and his relatives fought and died to keep this country a free, Democratic, FULLY independent, sovereign nation state, not for no marks like Blair and Cameron to hand our hard won and hard fought sovereignty away on a plate to federalist undemocratic organisations like the EU.
In all conscience I won't stand by and let remoaners overturn a democratic decision that this country has made to leave the EU (the biggest democratic vote ever taken by the uk). So I will indeed wear a poppy on Sunday in their memory and what they fought for, although it seems to be a very different view of the world to what yours is.
Lest we forget! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We remember all those who have given their lives in all conflictsA mother. A wife, mourns for a husband, a son or a daughter. That fought and lost their lives on foreign soil. Never to return home to their loved ones. They fought to keep the nations enemy from our shores. A 100 years on. Our enemies now walk amongst us. Sad. very sad.
I'm not sure what you mean "our enemies now walk amongst us". Non of my enemies walk with me."
I presume he means German's  |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
Without sacrifice there would be no freedom.
I will remember all those that have given, and continue to give, their all so that we may enjoy the freedoms that we all cherish so dearly these days. For most, they had no choice and for that, I am eternally grateful. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Propaganda aside, I doubt if many of the poor souls who lost their lives in two horrendous world wars, were 100% certain as to what they were fighting for, or against. I’m not just talking about one side either, all sides. Indeed the only thing that determined which side they were on was where they happened to be from. In particular WW1, which started with the assassination of some obscure arch duke. It is such a shame that so many died in such a short space of time, entire generations.
Looking back through history, I’m convinced that soldiers were used to test new weaponry and massage the egos of their “beloved leaders.” The two world wars were colossal wastes of innocent human lifes.
I choose to remember the people who made those sacrifices. But not the bastards who made them do it. It’s about humans, people being used as pawns... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Propaganda aside, I doubt if many of the poor souls who lost their lives in two horrendous world wars, were 100% certain as to what they were fighting for, or against. I’m not just talking about one side either, all sides. Indeed the only thing that determined which side they were on was where they happened to be from. In particular WW1, which started with the assassination of some obscure arch duke. It is such a shame that so many died in such a short space of time, entire generations.
Looking back through history, I’m convinced that soldiers were used to test new weaponry and massage the egos of their “beloved leaders.” The two world wars were colossal wastes of innocent human lifes.
I choose to remember the people who made those sacrifices. But not the bastards who made them do it. It’s about humans, people being used as pawns..."
Totally agree.
Also, I’m not in favour of trying to politicise the annual poppy appeal and the remembrance services by either side. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Propaganda aside, I doubt if many of the poor souls who lost their lives in two horrendous world wars, were 100% certain as to what they were fighting for, or against. I’m not just talking about one side either, all sides. Indeed the only thing that determined which side they were on was where they happened to be from. In particular WW1, which started with the assassination of some obscure arch duke. It is such a shame that so many died in such a short space of time, entire generations.
Looking back through history, I’m convinced that soldiers were used to test new weaponry and massage the egos of their “beloved leaders.” The two world wars were colossal wastes of innocent human lifes.
I choose to remember the people who made those sacrifices. But not the bastards who made them do it. It’s about humans, people being used as pawns...
Totally agree.
Also, I’m not in favour of trying to politicise the annual poppy appeal and the remembrance services by either side."
Finally we agree on something! |
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"They fought because there imperialist rulers on both sides made them,what has been added is idealism and romance.
The nasty treaty that ended this war caused the second as Germany was oppressed so much that it allowed Hitler to flourish.
In simple terms that is a lot of the story"
.
I don't agree with that left wing idea of over punishing causing Hitlers rise, it's based on a whole load of left wing ideology of treat people nice and there'll be nice, we actually treated Hitler far to well which is why he adopted the attitude that he could do as he wished.
If you look back at the thirties what you actually see is a series of small border wars where no sanctions were applied to Germany, we didn't treat Germany harshly, we(the West) actually invested there massively.
We didn't make the same mistake twice though and after ww2 Germany was divided up and run by the West (and the USSR) under proper harsh arrangements,ie if you can't manage your own affairs we'll have to manage it for you until you can. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I try to think about what it must have been like for most of the men and women who served in WW2. I wonder what it was like having only access to state controlled radio broadcasts or if lucky news at the picture houses. Those guys only knew one side of the story. They had an idea as to why they had to fight, just like I’m sure the German soldiers only knew what the German state was telling them. I also feel sad when I think about all those Japs that were victims of two nuclear bombs.
Hitler was evil, but I believe that Churchill was not far off being just as bad, and Stalin probably even worse. |
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"My grandfather and his relatives fought and died to keep this country a free, Democratic, FULLY independent, sovereign nation state, not for no marks like Blair and Cameron to hand our hard won and hard fought sovereignty away on a plate to federalist undemocratic organisations like the EU.
In all conscience I won't stand by and let remoaners overturn a democratic decision that this country has made to leave the EU (the biggest democratic vote ever taken by the uk). So I will indeed wear a poppy on Sunday in their memory and what they fought for, although it seems to be a very different view of the world to what yours is.
Lest we forget! "
And they voted to join the EEC knowing that it would become the EU! And they would turn in their graves if they could see how the likes of you are embracing every piece of political dogma they rejected after making their sacrifices to keep this country safe! |
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"They fought because there imperialist rulers on both sides made them,what has been added is idealism and romance.
The nasty treaty that ended this war caused the second as Germany was oppressed so much that it allowed Hitler to flourish.
In simple terms that is a lot of the story.
I don't agree with that left wing idea of over punishing causing Hitlers rise, it's based on a whole load of left wing ideology of treat people nice and there'll be nice, we actually treated Hitler far to well which is why he adopted the attitude that he could do as he wished.
If you look back at the thirties what you actually see is a series of small border wars where no sanctions were applied to Germany, we didn't treat Germany harshly, we(the West) actually invested there massively.
We didn't make the same mistake twice though and after ww2 Germany was divided up and run by the West (and the USSR) under proper harsh arrangements,ie if you can't manage your own affairs we'll have to manage it for you until you can."
Not sure I agree with it was to do with treating them nice, more the reality that if you leave people with nothing then the theory of they all hate us and only I (in that case Hitler) will make us great again..
Magnanimous in victory springs to mind, also the global recession at that time contributed to their situation and need for someone to blame and left them open to manipulation..
We only managed West Germany till it was able to stand as a democracy, in fact I think the plans were brought forward for them to stand as a free country albeit within nato etc..
The east was a different kettle if fish and that oppression lasted longer..
Lessons from history are sadly prevalent again.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I try to think about what it must have been like for most of the men and women who served in WW2. I wonder what it was like having only access to state controlled radio broadcasts or if lucky news at the picture houses. Those guys only knew one side of the story. They had an idea as to why they had to fight, just like I’m sure the German soldiers only knew what the German state was telling them. I also feel sad when I think about all those Japs that were victims of two nuclear bombs.
Hitler was evil, but I believe that Churchill was not far off being just as bad, and Stalin probably even worse."
Again I completely agree.
I spoke to a guy years ago who was a soldier in the German army during WW2. He was told all kinds of things about the allied forces. They controlled all the information he was given. His story as a soldier ended when he was captured by the Americans close to the end of the war. The Americans were relatively kind to him, not what he’d been led to believe by the propaganda.
It was interesting, he was told the allies were trying to invade and oppresss Germany. He knew Hitler was sketchy but had no idea the scale of it until after the war.
Like you said, I feel sorry for all the soldiers on every side. Who knows what they were told they’d be fighting for. |
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"Propaganda aside, I doubt if many of the poor souls who lost their lives in two horrendous world wars, were 100% certain as to what they were fighting for, or against. I’m not just talking about one side either, all sides. Indeed the only thing that determined which side they were on was where they happened to be from. In particular WW1, which started with the assassination of some obscure arch duke. It is such a shame that so many died in such a short space of time, entire generations.
Looking back through history, I’m convinced that soldiers were used to test new weaponry and massage the egos of their “beloved leaders.” The two world wars were colossal wastes of innocent human lifes.
I choose to remember the people who made those sacrifices. But not the bastards who made them do it. It’s about humans, people being used as pawns...
Totally agree.
Also, I’m not in favour of trying to politicise the annual poppy appeal and the remembrance services by either side.
Finally we agree on something!"
How fucking condescending of the two of you! Where do you get off with your 'the people who died were too stupid and uneducated to understand the issues as they volunteered to serve their country and make the ultimate sacrifice in their 10's of thousands! This may be a very dated news idem but listen to the message and then tell me that your grandparents did not know what they fought for!
https://youtu.be/vG9wCSrTbXs |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Propaganda aside, I doubt if many of the poor souls who lost their lives in two horrendous world wars, were 100% certain as to what they were fighting for, or against. I’m not just talking about one side either, all sides. Indeed the only thing that determined which side they were on was where they happened to be from. In particular WW1, which started with the assassination of some obscure arch duke. It is such a shame that so many died in such a short space of time, entire generations.
Looking back through history, I’m convinced that soldiers were used to test new weaponry and massage the egos of their “beloved leaders.” The two world wars were colossal wastes of innocent human lifes.
I choose to remember the people who made those sacrifices. But not the bastards who made them do it. It’s about humans, people being used as pawns...
Totally agree.
Also, I’m not in favour of trying to politicise the annual poppy appeal and the remembrance services by either side.
Finally we agree on something!
How fucking condescending of the two of you! Where do you get off with your 'the people who died were too stupid and uneducated to understand the issues as they volunteered to serve their country and make the ultimate sacrifice in their 10's of thousands! This may be a very dated news idem but listen to the message and then tell me that your grandparents did not know what they fought for!
https://youtu.be/vG9wCSrTbXs"
No one called them stupid. I am suggesting they were subjected to propaganda on both sides.
And you’ll know of course, that huge number of those who died on all side during WW1 and WW2 weren’t volunteers. |
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"Propaganda aside, I doubt if many of the poor souls who lost their lives in two horrendous world wars, were 100% certain as to what they were fighting for, or against. I’m not just talking about one side either, all sides. Indeed the only thing that determined which side they were on was where they happened to be from. In particular WW1, which started with the assassination of some obscure arch duke. It is such a shame that so many died in such a short space of time, entire generations.
Looking back through history, I’m convinced that soldiers were used to test new weaponry and massage the egos of their “beloved leaders.” The two world wars were colossal wastes of innocent human lifes.
I choose to remember the people who made those sacrifices. But not the bastards who made them do it. It’s about humans, people being used as pawns...
Totally agree.
Also, I’m not in favour of trying to politicise the annual poppy appeal and the remembrance services by either side.
Finally we agree on something!
How fucking condescending of the two of you! Where do you get off with your 'the people who died were too stupid and uneducated to understand the issues as they volunteered to serve their country and make the ultimate sacrifice in their 10's of thousands! This may be a very dated news idem but listen to the message and then tell me that your grandparents did not know what they fought for!
https://youtu.be/vG9wCSrTbXs"
something similar is said on here daily about the leave voters to stupid to know what they voted for very condescending |
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I find it strange how little people understand about the realities and psychology of war. (Not the mechanics or the psychology of those mechanics, which are also little understood, but the what a war is and what it takes to end a war.)
WW2 was nothing more than a continuation of WW1. This is the reality of things. Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire was not defeated at the end of WW1 and as a result its 'will to fight' was not destroyed, so although both were dismantled by the Treaty of Versaille the mere act of Armistice guaranteed that there would be a second war in Europe. We can look back through history and we can see that in all true wars there is never a lasting peace until one side has been totally vanquished. This is the nature of war, and this is why politicians need to keep 'war dogs' (like me) on very short leashes and skilled diplomats to avoid starting wars. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Propaganda aside, I doubt if many of the poor souls who lost their lives in two horrendous world wars, were 100% certain as to what they were fighting for, or against. I’m not just talking about one side either, all sides. Indeed the only thing that determined which side they were on was where they happened to be from. In particular WW1, which started with the assassination of some obscure arch duke. It is such a shame that so many died in such a short space of time, entire generations.
Looking back through history, I’m convinced that soldiers were used to test new weaponry and massage the egos of their “beloved leaders.” The two world wars were colossal wastes of innocent human lifes.
I choose to remember the people who made those sacrifices. But not the bastards who made them do it. It’s about humans, people being used as pawns...
Totally agree.
Also, I’m not in favour of trying to politicise the annual poppy appeal and the remembrance services by either side.
Finally we agree on something!
How fucking condescending of the two of you! Where do you get off with your 'the people who died were too stupid and uneducated to understand the issues as they volunteered to serve their country and make the ultimate sacrifice in their 10's of thousands! This may be a very dated news idem but listen to the message and then tell me that your grandparents did not know what they fought for!
https://youtu.be/vG9wCSrTbXs"
I wasn’t even suggesting they were stupid or uneducated, no bloody way!
I was merely pointing out that there was very little access to information back then. As opposed to now when we can find any particular thing we are looking for. That and the fact that countries leaders have used the lifes of their own people to play horrible war games for centuries. |
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"And you’ll know of course, that huge number of those who died on all side during WW1 and WW2 weren’t volunteers."
It is clear to me that you neither understand what is written in front of you or the nature of war. There has never been a true war that has been fought by volunteers only, and if you look at my post I said volunteered in 10's of THOSANDS not millions. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And you’ll know of course, that huge number of those who died on all side during WW1 and WW2 weren’t volunteers.
It is clear to me that you neither understand what is written in front of you or the nature of war. There has never been a true war that has been fought by volunteers only, and if you look at my post I said volunteered in 10's of THOSANDS not millions."
Remain calm.
I don’t think our view points are that different here. |
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"Remain calm.
I don’t think our view points are that different here."
I am very calm, it is just when posting on military matters I am very careful in the words I use, and I find that sometimes using capitals is the quickest way to make those with selective blindness or the ability to read what they want to see rather than what is written to see what is in front of them. |
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"In all conscience I will not stand by while the world built by the generations that fought two Great Wars is left to turn feral in the hands of right-wing populists and indifferent politicians. Too many people died and too many lives were cut short or mangled for me to accept that the architecture of fascism being built by demagogues in Europe, the US and Asia should be allowed to go unchallenged.
It's all very well to wear your Poppy with pride on Remembrance Day next Sunday, and I will be, but when we say "lest we forget' remember that it's not just the dead we remember, it's what they died for. They didn't die for populists and demagogues to make a more disunited world based on mistrust and contempt for foreigners, where the possibility of conflict and war seem far more likely than ever before in my life.
Lest we forget!
My grandfather and his relatives fought and died to keep this country a free, Democratic, FULLY independent, sovereign nation state, not for no marks like Blair and Cameron to hand our hard won and hard fought sovereignty away on a plate to federalist undemocratic organisations like the EU.
In all conscience I won't stand by and let remoaners overturn a democratic decision that this country has made to leave the EU (the biggest democratic vote ever taken by the uk). So I will indeed wear a poppy on Sunday in their memory and what they fought for, although it seems to be a very different view of the world to what yours is.
Lest we forget! "
There's a time to argue and a time come together.
This post of yours would have been far more powerful and meaningful if it had been posted on a thread of your own, rather than a para phrased rebuttal of my OP.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I make a big distinction between the politics of WW1 and WW2.
The first was empires colliding and their possessions up for grabs. It was not about defending democracy beacuse Britain was not a democracy - most of those sent to their deaths did not have a vote.
That in no way lessens the sacrifice made by any individual in either war.
But every time some jingoistic politician waves their poppy in the name of freedom and democracy in the Great War, it is vomit-inducing. |
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"I make a big distinction between the politics of WW1 and WW2.
The first was empires colliding and their possessions up for grabs. It was not about defending democracy beacuse Britain was not a democracy - most of those sent to their deaths did not have a vote.
That in no way lessens the sacrifice made by any individual in either war.
But every time some jingoistic politician waves their poppy in the name of freedom and democracy in the Great War, it is vomit-inducing."
The Franchise in the UK in 1914 covered about 65% to 70% of the male population. Not democratic enough by today's standards but definitely democratic enough to take real power away from a monarch and aristocratic lords.
Also there is absolutely nothing to suggest that, outside of Ireland, the UK had any interest in acquiring possessions or territory in Europe. In fact if British colonial interest's had been the driver for the UK entering WW1 we would have done better fighting the French with Germany as France was a far bigger threat to our colonial ambitions than Germany ever was. It simply doesn't make sense to claim the that Britain entered WW1 for imperialistic reasons.
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
The franchise in 1914 covered 28 per cent of the population.
Such was the growing resentment towards the Establishment at the loss of life, and the Establishment’s fear of contagion from Russian revolution, it was extended to 78 per cent in 1919.
No-one in power ever cedes its willingly - extending the franchise was a means to counter a growing sense of rebellion against the elites who had inflicted such slaughter on the ordinary people.
They were not fighting for democracy when almost three out of every four people in this country were deemed unworthy of that right. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I try to think about what it must have been like for most of the men and women who served in WW2. I wonder what it was like having only access to state controlled radio broadcasts or if lucky news at the picture houses. Those guys only knew one side of the story. They had an idea as to why they had to fight, just like I’m sure the German soldiers only knew what the German state was telling them. I also feel sad when I think about all those Japs that were victims of two nuclear bombs.
Hitler was evil, but I believe that Churchill was not far off being just as bad, and Stalin probably even worse.
Again I completely agree.
I spoke to a guy years ago who was a soldier in the German army during WW2. He was told all kinds of things about the allied forces. They controlled all the information he was given. His story as a soldier ended when he was captured by the Americans close to the end of the war. The Americans were relatively kind to him, not what he’d been led to believe by the propaganda.
It was interesting, he was told the allies were trying to invade and oppresss Germany. He knew Hitler was sketchy but had no idea the scale of it until after the war.
Like you said, I feel sorry for all the soldiers on every side. Who knows what they were told they’d be fighting for."
I have the same pity for modern soldiers ....they are highly "trained" after all. |
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"The franchise in 1914 covered 28 per cent of the population.
Such was the growing resentment towards the Establishment at the loss of life, and the Establishment’s fear of contagion from Russian revolution, it was extended to 78 per cent in 1919.
No-one in power ever cedes its willingly - extending the franchise was a means to counter a growing sense of rebellion against the elites who had inflicted such slaughter on the ordinary people.
They were not fighting for democracy when almost three out of every four people in this country were deemed unworthy of that right."
Your figure of 28% is misleading. That's 28% of the whole population. As women didn't have the vote (and also didn't fight) you have to double it to 56% of all males. You also have to exclude all those under age (at any time about 20%) which gives the figure of 67.2%, which is almost right in the middle of the 65% to 70% I originally said. The men who fought, risked their lives and many who died can very definitely be said to be fighting for their democracy and freedom when at leat 3 out of 4 of them were fully enfranchised. Especially as, if we had lost WW1, most of those enfranchised, free men would have lost their franchise.
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"They fought because there imperialist rulers on both sides made them,what has been added is idealism and romance.
The nasty treaty that ended this war caused the second as Germany was oppressed so much that it allowed Hitler to flourish.
In simple terms that is a lot of the story.
I don't agree with that left wing idea of over punishing causing Hitlers rise, it's based on a whole load of left wing ideology of treat people nice and there'll be nice, we actually treated Hitler far to well which is why he adopted the attitude that he could do as he wished.
If you look back at the thirties what you actually see is a series of small border wars where no sanctions were applied to Germany, we didn't treat Germany harshly, we(the West) actually invested there massively.
We didn't make the same mistake twice though and after ww2 Germany was divided up and run by the West (and the USSR) under proper harsh arrangements,ie if you can't manage your own affairs we'll have to manage it for you until you can.
Not sure I agree with it was to do with treating them nice, more the reality that if you leave people with nothing then the theory of they all hate us and only I (in that case Hitler) will make us great again..
Magnanimous in victory springs to mind, also the global recession at that time contributed to their situation and need for someone to blame and left them open to manipulation..
We only managed West Germany till it was able to stand as a democracy, in fact I think the plans were brought forward for them to stand as a free country albeit within nato etc..
The east was a different kettle if fish and that oppression lasted longer..
Lessons from history are sadly prevalent again.. "
Hitler wasn't remotely in power when the hyper inflation started and reparations weren't the real cause of the problem.
German economics was the problem, they borrowed to pay for the first world war without thinking about paying for it (that rings a bell), the Western front was in France and Belgium, Germany was pretty much intact and ready to go back to work.
They printed money to buy hard currency to pay the reparations and along with their already big debt that they borrowed to fight it that's what caused the hyper inflation, to be fair to the West they allowed Western companies to invest into Germany to help the German economy and due to those troubled times and the rise of the Bolsheviks in Russia they then thought Adolf Hitler was a good idea.
The mistake the West made was not doing the job properly by finishing off Germany entirely during the first world war, then letting them regroup while fascism against communism raged in Spain and then not having the balls to do anything about him but wave stupid white papers around saying he's told us he's going to be a good boy from now on (typical socialist).
A whole series of border wars had taken place for years with Germany taking back old Prussian lands and soft liberals saying well they did control it 50 years ago suddentland, parts of France, Belgium, Austria, Poland.
Honestly the problem was not being too harsh on Germany it was being to lax and soft on them that allowed Hitler to act with impunity, such was a lacking he never even remotely believed the British would declare war on him. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"The franchise in 1914 covered 28 per cent of the population.
Such was the growing resentment towards the Establishment at the loss of life, and the Establishment’s fear of contagion from Russian revolution, it was extended to 78 per cent in 1919.
No-one in power ever cedes its willingly - extending the franchise was a means to counter a growing sense of rebellion against the elites who had inflicted such slaughter on the ordinary people.
They were not fighting for democracy when almost three out of every four people in this country were deemed unworthy of that right.
Your figure of 28% is misleading. That's 28% of the whole population. As women didn't have the vote (and also didn't fight) you have to double it to 56% of all males. You also have to exclude all those under age (at any time about 20%) which gives the figure of 67.2%, which is almost right in the middle of the 65% to 70% I originally said. The men who fought, risked their lives and many who died can very definitely be said to be fighting for their democracy and freedom when at leat 3 out of 4 of them were fully enfranchised. Especially as, if we had lost WW1, most of those enfranchised, free men would have lost their franchise.
"
The statement was not misleading at all.
28 per cent of adults in this country could vote.
Almost three out of every four could not.
That is not democracy.
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"They fought because there imperialist rulers on both sides made them,what has been added is idealism and romance.
The nasty treaty that ended this war caused the second as Germany was oppressed so much that it allowed Hitler to flourish.
In simple terms that is a lot of the story.
I don't agree with that left wing idea of over punishing causing Hitlers rise, it's based on a whole load of left wing ideology of treat people nice and there'll be nice, we actually treated Hitler far to well which is why he adopted the attitude that he could do as he wished.
If you look back at the thirties what you actually see is a series of small border wars where no sanctions were applied to Germany, we didn't treat Germany harshly, we(the West) actually invested there massively.
We didn't make the same mistake twice though and after ww2 Germany was divided up and run by the West (and the USSR) under proper harsh arrangements,ie if you can't manage your own affairs we'll have to manage it for you until you can.
Not sure I agree with it was to do with treating them nice, more the reality that if you leave people with nothing then the theory of they all hate us and only I (in that case Hitler) will make us great again..
Magnanimous in victory springs to mind, also the global recession at that time contributed to their situation and need for someone to blame and left them open to manipulation..
We only managed West Germany till it was able to stand as a democracy, in fact I think the plans were brought forward for them to stand as a free country albeit within nato etc..
The east was a different kettle if fish and that oppression lasted longer..
Lessons from history are sadly prevalent again.. Hitler wasn't remotely in power when the hyper inflation started and reparations weren't the real cause of the problem.
German economics was the problem, they borrowed to pay for the first world war without thinking about paying for it (that rings a bell), the Western front was in France and Belgium, Germany was pretty much intact and ready to go back to work.
They printed money to buy hard currency to pay the reparations and along with their already big debt that they borrowed to fight it that's what caused the hyper inflation, to be fair to the West they allowed Western companies to invest into Germany to help the German economy and due to those troubled times and the rise of the Bolsheviks in Russia they then thought Adolf Hitler was a good idea.
The mistake the West made was not doing the job properly by finishing off Germany entirely during the first world war, then letting them regroup while fascism against communism raged in Spain and then not having the balls to do anything about him but wave stupid white papers around saying he's told us he's going to be a good boy from now on (typical socialist).
A whole series of border wars had taken place for years with Germany taking back old Prussian lands and soft liberals saying well they did control it 50 years ago suddentland, parts of France, Belgium, Austria, Poland.
Honestly the problem was not being too harsh on Germany it was being to lax and soft on them that allowed Hitler to act with impunity, such was a lacking he never even remotely believed the British would declare war on him."
Chamberlain was a Conservative which I reckon you know, is it him your referring to?
Appeasement was part of the problem but given that the end of the 1st World War was still massively an open wound for many in Europe its also relevant albeit with hindsight that it played its part in the political thinking during the rise of fascism and the re arming of Germany..
Let alone the costs to countries dealing with the financial meltdown between both events..
When you say finish off Germany properly? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
When you say finish off Germany properly? "
The objective of the Manhattan Project was to drop the bomb on Berlin.
Germany surrendered a few weeks before the first bomb was ready, however, so the Americans turned their attention to Japan.
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
Remembrance day is not the place for a political discussion its about remembering those who died for us, many had little choice but did so with huge bravery and dignity. Starting a thread about the politics of war and coupling that with remembrance is disrespectful of those that gave their lives for us.
If you want a discussion about the rights and wrongs then do it elsewhere |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Brexiters used the argument that our dead didn't fight for a United States of Europe .
I lost count how often that little gem of Ignorance appeared in my media feed online or has been spouted on here by the very people who think Remembrance Day shouldn't be political.
I saw vote leave memes with pictures of soldiers from the First World War.
Brexiters absolutely and without doubt used images of our dead to persuade people to leave.
Know thyself!
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Brexiters used the argument that our dead didn't fight for a United States of Europe .
I lost count how often that little gem of Ignorance appeared in my media feed online or has been spouted on here by the very people who think Remembrance Day shouldn't be political.
I saw vote leave memes with pictures of soldiers from the First World War.
Brexiters absolutely and without doubt used images of our dead to persuade people to leave.
Know thyself!
"
As much as I fully agree.
I also here people say “my grandfather didn’t fight against Nazis only for them to stand in public life” or some such, in reference to UKIP, EDL, etc. As much as I agree with that sentiment...
I don’t think it’s appropriate to use these moments of remembrance to further your own agenda. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"Remembrance day is not the place for a political discussion its about remembering those who died for us, many had little choice but did so with huge bravery and dignity. Starting a thread about the politics of war and coupling that with remembrance is disrespectful of those that gave their lives for us.
If you want a discussion about the rights and wrongs then do it elsewhere"
To be fair to the OP, I think this always was a political thread (in the politics forum), lamenting how extremism appears to be on the rise again.
By divorcing the sacrifice of previous generations from the cause of that sacrifice is precisely the point.
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Brexiters used the argument that our dead didn't fight for a United States of Europe .
I lost count how often that little gem of Ignorance appeared in my media feed online or has been spouted on here by the very people who think Remembrance Day shouldn't be political.
I saw vote leave memes with pictures of soldiers from the First World War.
Brexiters absolutely and without doubt used images of our dead to persuade people to leave.
Know thyself!
As much as I fully agree.
I also here people say “my grandfather didn’t fight against Nazis only for them to stand in public life” or some such, in reference to UKIP, EDL, etc. As much as I agree with that sentiment...
I don’t think it’s appropriate to use these moments of remembrance to further your own agenda. "
What if it was also the agenda of my grandparents? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Brexiters used the argument that our dead didn't fight for a United States of Europe .
I lost count how often that little gem of Ignorance appeared in my media feed online or has been spouted on here by the very people who think Remembrance Day shouldn't be political.
I saw vote leave memes with pictures of soldiers from the First World War.
Brexiters absolutely and without doubt used images of our dead to persuade people to leave.
Know thyself!
As much as I fully agree.
I also here people say “my grandfather didn’t fight against Nazis only for them to stand in public life” or some such, in reference to UKIP, EDL, etc. As much as I agree with that sentiment...
I don’t think it’s appropriate to use these moments of remembrance to further your own agenda.
What if it was also the agenda of my grandparents?"
I’m not saying you can’t. Because of course you can do and say anything you wish. But in my opinion, it’s inappropriate and waters down your argument.
As an example, someone who would try to use it to justify their extreme pro-Brexit views, just makes them look desperate. |
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"Remembrance day is not the place for a political discussion its about remembering those who died for us, many had little choice but did so with huge bravery and dignity. Starting a thread about the politics of war and coupling that with remembrance is disrespectful of those that gave their lives for us.
If you want a discussion about the rights and wrongs then do it elsewhere"
How better to remember the dead than remember what they died for?
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"Remembrance day is not the place for a political discussion its about remembering those who died for us, many had little choice but did so with huge bravery and dignity. Starting a thread about the politics of war and coupling that with remembrance is disrespectful of those that gave their lives for us.
If you want a discussion about the rights and wrongs then do it elsewhere
How better to remember the dead than remember what they died for?
"
They died for all our freedom, simple |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Remembrance day is not the place for a political discussion its about remembering those who died for us, many had little choice but did so with huge bravery and dignity. Starting a thread about the politics of war and coupling that with remembrance is disrespectful of those that gave their lives for us.
If you want a discussion about the rights and wrongs then do it elsewhere
How better to remember the dead than remember what they died for?
They died for all our freedom, simple "
like freedom to question the politics that surround the cause that causes us to be made to remember? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Remembrance day is about taking time out to remember and show our respect for all those who have lost their lives in conflict.
It is not a time for political point scoring. |
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"Remembrance day is about taking time out to remember and show our respect for all those who have lost their lives in conflict.
It is not a time for political point scoring."
It's not political point scoring to remember the principles people fought for.
Show some respect by letting people remember how they choose. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Remembrance day is about taking time out to remember and show our respect for all those who have lost their lives in conflict.
It is not a time for political point scoring.
It's not political point scoring to remember the principles people fought for.
Show some respect by letting people remember how they choose."
Some morons are using it for political point scoring. Try reading the thread fully  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In all conscience I will not stand by while the world built by the generations that fought two Great Wars is left to turn feral in the hands of right-wing populists and indifferent politicians. Too many people died and too many lives were cut short or mangled for me to accept that the architecture of fascism being built by demagogues in Europe, the US and Asia should be allowed to go unchallenged.
It's all very well to wear your Poppy with pride on Remembrance Day next Sunday, and I will be, but when we say "lest we forget' remember that it's not just the dead we remember, it's what they died for. They didn't die for populists and demagogues to make a more disunited world based on mistrust and contempt for foreigners, where the possibility of conflict and war seem far more likely than ever before in my life.
Lest we forget!"
I wholeheartedly agree that it is INCREDIBLY important the we cling to this great institution and to the memory of every man and woman who gave their lives for this country and her dependants. Also remembering those whose lives have been irreparably turned upside down by conflict; injury, mental health, etc.
However, whilst I do not want to disrespect the memory of those whom have fallen by bringing a conversation down to the level of bickering over the whole "left/right", I must take exception to the remark of it being down to the far right whom are seeking to 'destroy' the world.
The far right is such a tiny fraction of the political spectrum. Meanwhile it is those on the extreme left, the socialists who are seeking to destabilise what we hold dear in this country and in the West in general, rememberance day being one of them.
The indifference of the politicians is the unfortunate side effect of them being effectively muted and afraid to speak for fear of backlash from the far left and it's greatest weapon; the media.
If politicians ever try to speak up for protecting our traditions (no matter what end of the spectrum they belong) they are berated for being 'racist', 'imperialistic', 'bigoted' and 'xenoohobic'.
It is the culture of fear and the almost fetishistic allure of being offended that the left has so carefully and cleverly constructed that is the cause of us to live in a perpetual state of anxiety and distrust.
We are nearly there. We're nearly in 1984. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In all conscience I will not stand by while the world built by the generations that fought two Great Wars is left to turn feral in the hands of right-wing populists and indifferent politicians. Too many people died and too many lives were cut short or mangled for me to accept that the architecture of fascism being built by demagogues in Europe, the US and Asia should be allowed to go unchallenged.
It's all very well to wear your Poppy with pride on Remembrance Day next Sunday, and I will be, but when we say "lest we forget' remember that it's not just the dead we remember, it's what they died for. They didn't die for populists and demagogues to make a more disunited world based on mistrust and contempt for foreigners, where the possibility of conflict and war seem far more likely than ever before in my life.
Lest we forget!
My grandfather and his relatives fought and died to keep this country a free, Democratic, FULLY independent, sovereign nation state, not for no marks like Blair and Cameron to hand our hard won and hard fought sovereignty away on a plate to federalist undemocratic organisations like the EU.
In all conscience I won't stand by and let remoaners overturn a democratic decision that this country has made to leave the EU (the biggest democratic vote ever taken by the uk). So I will indeed wear a poppy on Sunday in their memory and what they fought for, although it seems to be a very different view of the world to what yours is.
Lest we forget! "
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It is the culture of fear and the almost fetishistic allure of being offended that the left has so carefully and cleverly constructed that is the cause of us to live in a perpetual state of anxiety and distrust.
"
those pesky left wingers... how dare they be offended at people on this thread discussing the politics surrounding war and those that war has killed |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"In all conscience I will not stand by while the world built by the generations that fought two Great Wars is left to turn feral in the hands of right-wing populists and indifferent politicians. Too many people died and too many lives were cut short or mangled for me to accept that the architecture of fascism being built by demagogues in Europe, the US and Asia should be allowed to go unchallenged.
It's all very well to wear your Poppy with pride on Remembrance Day next Sunday, and I will be, but when we say "lest we forget' remember that it's not just the dead we remember, it's what they died for. They didn't die for populists and demagogues to make a more disunited world based on mistrust and contempt for foreigners, where the possibility of conflict and war seem far more likely than ever before in my life.
Lest we forget!
I wholeheartedly agree that it is INCREDIBLY important the we cling to this great institution and to the memory of every man and woman who gave their lives for this country and her dependants. Also remembering those whose lives have been irreparably turned upside down by conflict; injury, mental health, etc.
However, whilst I do not want to disrespect the memory of those whom have fallen by bringing a conversation down to the level of bickering over the whole "left/right", I must take exception to the remark of it being down to the far right whom are seeking to 'destroy' the world.
The far right is such a tiny fraction of the political spectrum. Meanwhile it is those on the extreme left, the socialists who are seeking to destabilise what we hold dear in this country and in the West in general, rememberance day being one of them.
The indifference of the politicians is the unfortunate side effect of them being effectively muted and afraid to speak for fear of backlash from the far left and it's greatest weapon; the media.
If politicians ever try to speak up for protecting our traditions (no matter what end of the spectrum they belong) they are berated for being 'racist', 'imperialistic', 'bigoted' and 'xenoohobic'.
It is the culture of fear and the almost fetishistic allure of being offended that the left has so carefully and cleverly constructed that is the cause of us to live in a perpetual state of anxiety and distrust.
We are nearly there. We're nearly in 1984."
Oh, I spoke too soon.
We have a winner...  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"In all conscience I will not stand by while the world built by the generations that fought two Great Wars is left to turn feral in the hands of right-wing populists and indifferent politicians. Too many people died and too many lives were cut short or mangled for me to accept that the architecture of fascism being built by demagogues in Europe, the US and Asia should be allowed to go unchallenged.
It's all very well to wear your Poppy with pride on Remembrance Day next Sunday, and I will be, but when we say "lest we forget' remember that it's not just the dead we remember, it's what they died for. They didn't die for populists and demagogues to make a more disunited world based on mistrust and contempt for foreigners, where the possibility of conflict and war seem far more likely than ever before in my life.
Lest we forget!
I wholeheartedly agree that it is INCREDIBLY important the we cling to this great institution and to the memory of every man and woman who gave their lives for this country and her dependants. Also remembering those whose lives have been irreparably turned upside down by conflict; injury, mental health, etc.
However, whilst I do not want to disrespect the memory of those whom have fallen by bringing a conversation down to the level of bickering over the whole "left/right", I must take exception to the remark of it being down to the far right whom are seeking to 'destroy' the world.
The far right is such a tiny fraction of the political spectrum. Meanwhile it is those on the extreme left, the socialists who are seeking to destabilise what we hold dear in this country and in the West in general, rememberance day being one of them.
The indifference of the politicians is the unfortunate side effect of them being effectively muted and afraid to speak for fear of backlash from the far left and it's greatest weapon; the media.
If politicians ever try to speak up for protecting our traditions (no matter what end of the spectrum they belong) they are berated for being 'racist', 'imperialistic', 'bigoted' and 'xenoohobic'.
It is the culture of fear and the almost fetishistic allure of being offended that the left has so carefully and cleverly constructed that is the cause of us to live in a perpetual state of anxiety and distrust.
We are nearly there. We're nearly in 1984.
Oh, I spoke too soon.
We have a winner... "
Way ,way to soon he wins the internet.
Where the fuck do these people come from...Funny as fuck |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"In all conscience I will not stand by while the world built by the generations that fought two Great Wars is left to turn feral in the hands of right-wing populists and indifferent politicians. Too many people died and too many lives were cut short or mangled for me to accept that the architecture of fascism being built by demagogues in Europe, the US and Asia should be allowed to go unchallenged.
It's all very well to wear your Poppy with pride on Remembrance Day next Sunday, and I will be, but when we say "lest we forget' remember that it's not just the dead we remember, it's what they died for. They didn't die for populists and demagogues to make a more disunited world based on mistrust and contempt for foreigners, where the possibility of conflict and war seem far more likely than ever before in my life.
Lest we forget!
I wholeheartedly agree that it is INCREDIBLY important the we cling to this great institution and to the memory of every man and woman who gave their lives for this country and her dependants. Also remembering those whose lives have been irreparably turned upside down by conflict; injury, mental health, etc.
However, whilst I do not want to disrespect the memory of those whom have fallen by bringing a conversation down to the level of bickering over the whole "left/right", I must take exception to the remark of it being down to the far right whom are seeking to 'destroy' the world.
The far right is such a tiny fraction of the political spectrum. Meanwhile it is those on the extreme left, the socialists who are seeking to destabilise what we hold dear in this country and in the West in general, rememberance day being one of them.
The indifference of the politicians is the unfortunate side effect of them being effectively muted and afraid to speak for fear of backlash from the far left and it's greatest weapon; the media.
If politicians ever try to speak up for protecting our traditions (no matter what end of the spectrum they belong) they are berated for being 'racist', 'imperialistic', 'bigoted' and 'xenoohobic'.
It is the culture of fear and the almost fetishistic allure of being offended that the left has so carefully and cleverly constructed that is the cause of us to live in a perpetual state of anxiety and distrust.
We are nearly there. We're nearly in 1984.
Oh, I spoke too soon.
We have a winner...
Way ,way to soon he wins the internet.
Where the fuck do these people come from...Funny as fuck "
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"In all conscience I will not stand by while the world built by the generations that fought two Great Wars is left to turn feral in the hands of right-wing populists and indifferent politicians. Too many people died and too many lives were cut short or mangled for me to accept that the architecture of fascism being built by demagogues in Europe, the US and Asia should be allowed to go unchallenged.
It's all very well to wear your Poppy with pride on Remembrance Day next Sunday, and I will be, but when we say "lest we forget' remember that it's not just the dead we remember, it's what they died for. They didn't die for populists and demagogues to make a more disunited world based on mistrust and contempt for foreigners, where the possibility of conflict and war seem far more likely than ever before in my life.
Lest we forget!
I wholeheartedly agree that it is INCREDIBLY important the we cling to this great institution and to the memory of every man and woman who gave their lives for this country and her dependants. Also remembering those whose lives have been irreparably turned upside down by conflict; injury, mental health, etc.
However, whilst I do not want to disrespect the memory of those whom have fallen by bringing a conversation down to the level of bickering over the whole "left/right", I must take exception to the remark of it being down to the far right whom are seeking to 'destroy' the world.
The far right is such a tiny fraction of the political spectrum. Meanwhile it is those on the extreme left, the socialists who are seeking to destabilise what we hold dear in this country and in the West in general, rememberance day being one of them.
The indifference of the politicians is the unfortunate side effect of them being effectively muted and afraid to speak for fear of backlash from the far left and it's greatest weapon; the media.
If politicians ever try to speak up for protecting our traditions (no matter what end of the spectrum they belong) they are berated for being 'racist', 'imperialistic', 'bigoted' and 'xenoohobic'.
It is the culture of fear and the almost fetishistic allure of being offended that the left has so carefully and cleverly constructed that is the cause of us to live in a perpetual state of anxiety and distrust.
We are nearly there. We're nearly in 1984.
Oh, I spoke too soon.
We have a winner...
Way ,way to soon he wins the internet.
Where the fuck do these people come from...Funny as fuck
"
Not sure if this merits a response, as I can’t tell if you’re serious or not. But for now I’ll assume you are. The key sentence was.
“the socialists who are seeking to destabilise what we hold dear in this country and in the West in general, rememberance day being one of them.”
No socialist anywhere is seeking to destabilise rememberance day. What on Earth are you talking about? If you gave some examples of “what we hold dear in this country”, that would help, it your answer is “private ownership of the railways”, then yes, some socialists are seeking to change this. |
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"
When you say finish off Germany properly?
The objective of the Manhattan Project was to drop the bomb on Berlin.
Germany surrendered a few weeks before the first bomb was ready, however, so the Americans turned their attention to Japan.
"
Hi yes, ty aware of that but was responding to what I believe was a comment about the end of the previous conflict.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I try to think about what it must have been like for most of the men and women who served in WW2. I wonder what it was like having only access to state controlled radio broadcasts or if lucky news at the picture houses. Those guys only knew one side of the story. They had an idea as to why they had to fight, just like I’m sure the German soldiers only knew what the German state was telling them. I also feel sad when I think about all those Japs that were victims of two nuclear bombs.
Hitler was evil, but I believe that Churchill was not far off being just as bad, and Stalin probably even worse.
Again I completely agree.
I spoke to a guy years ago who was a soldier in the German army during WW2. He was told all kinds of things about the allied forces. They controlled all the information he was given. His story as a soldier ended when he was captured by the Americans close to the end of the war. The Americans were relatively kind to him, not what he’d been led to believe by the propaganda.
It was interesting, he was told the allies were trying to invade and oppresss Germany. He knew Hitler was sketchy but had no idea the scale of it until after the war.
Like you said, I feel sorry for all the soldiers on every side. Who knows what they were told they’d be fighting for.
I have the same pity for modern soldiers ....they are highly "trained" after all. "
Meaning ???....i think most soldiers wouldn't want your pity.... |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
The far right is such a tiny fraction of the political spectrum. Meanwhile it is those on the extreme left, the socialists who are seeking to destabilise what we hold dear in this country and in the West in general, rememberance day being one of them. "
By far the greatest sacrifice in the war against Hitler came from the people of the USSR - the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
One could even argue Hitler sent his 'B' team to the Western front because the 'A' was engaged in such a desperate fight on the Eastern front.
We do all combatants a dis-service when we elevate one anti-fascist alliance over another.
Millions upon millions lost their lives rolling back the tide of fascism, and they all deserve their place in history.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
The far right is such a tiny fraction of the political spectrum. Meanwhile it is those on the extreme left, the socialists who are seeking to destabilise what we hold dear in this country and in the West in general, rememberance day being one of them.
By far the greatest sacrifice in the war against Hitler came from the people of the USSR - the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
One could even argue Hitler sent his 'B' team to the Western front because the 'A' was engaged in such a desperate fight on the Eastern front.
We do all combatants a dis-service when we elevate one anti-fascist alliance over another.
Millions upon millions lost their lives rolling back the tide of fascism, and they all deserve their place in history.
"
That's fair enough. By far THE biggest sacrifice did indeed come from the USSR. But not only through fighting the NAZI army. It came from closer to home.
Stalin (who'd made a pact with Hitler to invade Poland) had pretty much all of his top advisers and generals imprisoned or killed before Hitler even had his eye on Russia.
Stalin ordered that NO ONE, no citizen, on pain of death, was to leave Stalingrad whilst it got obliterated by the NAZIS. His orders were also that his soldiers (again, on pain of death) were never to retreat, even if it meant capture or death at a German gun.
All of this AFTER the holodomor where the kulaks (Ukrainian farmers) lands were appropriated and the farmers and their families left to starve; killed even if they tried to gather any of the crops for themselves.
The gulag archipelago were prisons full of thought criminals. They weren't run by the state but by organised and violent gangs.
The political prisoners tortured and worked to death. They were every bit as horendous as the vile concentration camps thought the German held territories.
So, I think it's fair to say that whilst the citizens and soldiers of the USSR did indeed pay a high price during the war, their struggle was as much internal as it was external.
Communism is every bit as vile an ideology as Hitler's NAZIism and Mussolini's fascism. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I agree, the biggest price paid by one nation was by the Soviet's but without one piece of the whole jigsaw then the entire war outcome could have been much different. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Well hearing about a 98 yr old man being attacked in his own home and fighting for his life is deeply sickening. This man lived through the aftermath of WW1 and may have fought in WW2 this is how "we remember them". Personally I feel there is not a sentence strong enough to deal with the perpetrator! |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I agree. The resilience of the ordinary Soviet citizen was all the more remarkable considering the paranoid policies of Stalin, not least the continued purges during the 1930s of just about every military figure who showed aspirations of leadership. It made their fight against fascism so much harder. |
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"The franchise in 1914 covered 28 per cent of the population.
Such was the growing resentment towards the Establishment at the loss of life, and the Establishment’s fear of contagion from Russian revolution, it was extended to 78 per cent in 1919.
No-one in power ever cedes its willingly - extending the franchise was a means to counter a growing sense of rebellion against the elites who had inflicted such slaughter on the ordinary people.
They were not fighting for democracy when almost three out of every four people in this country were deemed unworthy of that right.
Your figure of 28% is misleading. That's 28% of the whole population. As women didn't have the vote (and also didn't fight) you have to double it to 56% of all males. You also have to exclude all those under age (at any time about 20%) which gives the figure of 67.2%, which is almost right in the middle of the 65% to 70% I originally said. The men who fought, risked their lives and many who died can very definitely be said to be fighting for their democracy and freedom when at leat 3 out of 4 of them were fully enfranchised. Especially as, if we had lost WW1, most of those enfranchised, free men would have lost their franchise.
The statement was not misleading at all.
28 per cent of adults in this country could vote.
Almost three out of every four could not.
That is not democracy.
"
What you actually said was 28% of the population, which was correct. 28% population is about 33% of the adult population and 33% of the adult population is 66% of the male population. As those fighting in WW1 were all male and mostly of voting age most of them were democratically represented.
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"The franchise in 1914 covered 28 per cent of the population.
Such was the growing resentment towards the Establishment at the loss of life, and the Establishment’s fear of contagion from Russian revolution, it was extended to 78 per cent in 1919.
No-one in power ever cedes its willingly - extending the franchise was a means to counter a growing sense of rebellion against the elites who had inflicted such slaughter on the ordinary people.
They were not fighting for democracy when almost three out of every four people in this country were deemed unworthy of that right.
Your figure of 28% is misleading. That's 28% of the whole population. As women didn't have the vote (and also didn't fight) you have to double it to 56% of all males. You also have to exclude all those under age (at any time about 20%) which gives the figure of 67.2%, which is almost right in the middle of the 65% to 70% I originally said. The men who fought, risked their lives and many who died can very definitely be said to be fighting for their democracy and freedom when at leat 3 out of 4 of them were fully enfranchised. Especially as, if we had lost WW1, most of those enfranchised, free men would have lost their franchise.
The statement was not misleading at all.
28 per cent of adults in this country could vote.
Almost three out of every four could not.
That is not democracy.
What you actually said was 28% of the population, which was correct. 28% population is about 33% of the adult population and 33% of the adult population is 66% of the male population. As those fighting in WW1 were all male and mostly of voting age most of them were democratically represented.
"
How on earth can you say the men fighting in the British army in the first world war were fighting for democracy when only a third of British adults had the vote? Democracy is one adult one vote, surely.
As it happens, there was a wider franchise in Germany than there was in Britain, not to mention that fighting on the British side was Russia, the most undemocratic country in Europe.
The idea that world war one was a war for democracy is nonsense. |
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"Remembrance day is not the place for a political discussion its about remembering those who died for us, many had little choice but did so with huge bravery and dignity. Starting a thread about the politics of war and coupling that with remembrance is disrespectful of those that gave their lives for us.
If you want a discussion about the rights and wrongs then do it elsewhere
To be fair to the OP, I think this always was a political thread (in the politics forum), lamenting how extremism appears to be on the rise again.
By divorcing the sacrifice of previous generations from the cause of that sacrifice is precisely the point.
"
Absolutely this.
However I wasn't particularly thinking of BREXIT, although I do believe BREXIT is the British manifestation of the problem, I really had the general divisiveness and rush to the simplistic, populist extremes and ever growing desire for the "strong man" leader that seams to be taking over politics around the world.
Let be also clear. I do not see fascism as a left/right issue. I see rather like Madeline Albright does as a process to achieve totalitarian power. Like Madeline A. I too would consider Stalin's USSR as fascist.
I would also want to make clear that, whilst I think BREXIT is populist, idiotic, wrong and economically dangerous I do not believe or think that support for BREXIT is support for fascism. However I do believe that populism is the first step in building the architecture that can lead to fascism and that that populism must be opposed whether it comes from the left (taxing the elite top 5% will solve our problems) or the right (leaving the EU liberal elite will solve all our problems).
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In all conscience I will not stand by while the world built by the generations that fought two Great Wars is left to turn feral in the hands of right-wing populists and indifferent politicians. Too many people died and too many lives were cut short or mangled for me to accept that the architecture of fascism being built by demagogues in Europe, the US and Asia should be allowed to go unchallenged.
It's all very well to wear your Poppy with pride on Remembrance Day next Sunday, and I will be, but when we say "lest we forget' remember that it's not just the dead we remember, it's what they died for. They didn't die for populists and demagogues to make a more disunited world based on mistrust and contempt for foreigners, where the possibility of conflict and war seem far more likely than ever before in my life.
Lest we forget!
I wholeheartedly agree that it is INCREDIBLY important the we cling to this great institution and to the memory of every man and woman who gave their lives for this country and her dependants. Also remembering those whose lives have been irreparably turned upside down by conflict; injury, mental health, etc.
However, whilst I do not want to disrespect the memory of those whom have fallen by bringing a conversation down to the level of bickering over the whole "left/right", I must take exception to the remark of it being down to the far right whom are seeking to 'destroy' the world.
The far right is such a tiny fraction of the political spectrum. Meanwhile it is those on the extreme left, the socialists who are seeking to destabilise what we hold dear in this country and in the West in general, rememberance day being one of them.
The indifference of the politicians is the unfortunate side effect of them being effectively muted and afraid to speak for fear of backlash from the far left and it's greatest weapon; the media.
If politicians ever try to speak up for protecting our traditions (no matter what end of the spectrum they belong) they are berated for being 'racist', 'imperialistic', 'bigoted' and 'xenoohobic'.
It is the culture of fear and the almost fetishistic allure of being offended that the left has so carefully and cleverly constructed that is the cause of us to live in a perpetual state of anxiety and distrust.
We are nearly there. We're nearly in 1984."
I hear ya! |
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