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Why Remain could still lose the BREXIT argument
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"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from." It's a delusion because unless we pull out of every international agreement or convention we will NEVER have sovereignty. E.g. Unted Nations, NATO, GENEVA & VIENNA Conventions - there are several hundred of these including WTO! | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from." I agree in principle, but if brexit does lead to economic chaos, people will soon forget about abstract principles | |||
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"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from. It's a delusion because unless we pull out of every international agreement or convention we will NEVER have sovereignty. E.g. Unted Nations, NATO, GENEVA & VIENNA Conventions - there are several hundred of these including WTO! " I agree but read what it says on the Bruges Group site, they cover that very point. | |||
"If every brexiter was sent a flag in the post .We wouldn't be in this mess. "I don't get it? | |||
"It's about sovereignty? Once again, off you go trying to pigeonhole brexiteers into a far right category. Do you feel better now you have once again decided that anyone opposed to the EU is a nasty racist?" There is nothing racist about wanting Sovereignty. In fact it's the only BREXIT argument that holds any currency at all IMHO. But for me, on balance, I think the sovereignty we'll get back might make us legally more Sovereign (although one could also argue that, as the 1972 European Communities Act could have been repealed by Parliament any time it choose we never actually lost it) it will end up leaving us less sovereign in reality as we will have less control over rules being made in Europe but will still have to apply them regardless in order to trade. | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from." Congratulations the penny has dropped | |||
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"We wont be forced into the US of E and thats why I voted leave, when that happens I think many others in Europe will think they should of left when they had the chance" Yup, instead we'll jump head first into the US of A instead. -Matt | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from." there are two groups of people.... there were always going to be a certain base figure that were going to support leave regardless of what ever arguement were placed in front of them.... they are never going to change their mind!!! the rest of them... well they were sold a vision that is fact a pup!!! they were told things that would never happen, they were taken in by snake oil salesmen...... and the closer to the time we get... the more that vision is unwound and the reality will finally kick in... drip by drip like death by a thousand cuts at the end of the day people will have there own "epithany" moment at different times..... i think that is what will be more organic and that will only happen when things start to effect them! | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from." I never wanted in that circus in the first place .I've bided my time and have never gone on like the remoaners we have today do . learn to respect the referendum vote like we did first time around .maybe then you will understand the word democracy and stop behaving like spoilt and pampered children .like it or not leave won ...getvon with your lives like most of us do | |||
" there are two groups of people.... there were always going to be a certain base figure that were going to support leave regardless of what ever arguement were placed in front of them.... they are never going to change their mind!!! the rest of them... well they were sold a vision that is fact a pup!!! they were told things that would never happen, they were taken in by snake oil salesmen...... and the closer to the time we get... the more that vision is unwound and the reality will finally kick in... drip by drip like death by a thousand cuts at the end of the day people will have there own "epithany" moment at different times..... i think that is what will be more organic and that will only happen when things start to effect them!" Or, you could put it another way.. there are two groups of remainers.... there were always going to be a certain base figure that were going to support remain regardless of what ever arguement were placed in front of them.... they are never going to change their mind!!! the rest of them... well they were sold a vision that is fact a pup!!! they were told things that would never happen, they were taken in by snake oil salesmen...... and the more entrenched in the EU we get... the more that vision is unwound and the reality will finally kick in... drip by drip like death by a thousand cuts. | |||
did you hear about the latest "drip" moment to come out of the mouth of our lovely PM today..... | |||
"that is a fair point..... but i bet your "epithany" moment comes before mine......
did you hear about the latest "drip" moment to come out of the mouth of our lovely PM today....."since you are in derby... maybe your "epithany" moment will come when the boss of bombardier.... or the boss of toyota... come out and say stuff about their plants in derby..... like i said.... people's epithany points are going to be different... | |||
"that is a fair point..... but i bet your "epithany" moment comes before mine......
did you hear about the latest "drip" moment to come out of the mouth of our lovely PM today.....
since you are in derby... maybe your "epithany" moment will come when the boss of bombardier.... or the boss of toyota... come out and say stuff about their plants in derby.....
like i said.... people's epithany points are going to be different..."that’s right _abio the rest of us were to fucking dumb we’re sold a pup to thick to see it weren’t we do you realize how patronising you are on here same shit diffrent day atleast he did t say clusterfuck or the cliff edge lol | |||
"that is a fair point..... but i bet your "epithany" moment comes before mine......
did you hear about the latest "drip" moment to come out of the mouth of our lovely PM today.....
since you are in derby... maybe your "epithany" moment will come when the boss of bombardier.... or the boss of toyota... come out and say stuff about their plants in derby.....
like i said.... people's epithany points are going to be different... that’s right _abio the rest of us were to fucking dumb we’re sold a pup to thick to see it weren’t we do you realize how patronising you are on here same shit diffrent day atleast he did t say clusterfuck or the cliff edge lol"hey we all get sold pups.... some are bigger than others! everytime for about 15 arsene wenger said.. "yes arsenal are championship winning material" i believe it.... until it got to that one game where i thought.... nope! i've bought stuff that i've worn and thought wow great... looking back at it i think good god what were you thinking!!! that dodgy perm... that bad fringe.... not saying we haven't ever... just we have all be sold them!! | |||
"that is a fair point..... but i bet your "epithany" moment comes before mine......
did you hear about the latest "drip" moment to come out of the mouth of our lovely PM today.....
since you are in derby... maybe your "epithany" moment will come when the boss of bombardier.... or the boss of toyota... come out and say stuff about their plants in derby.....
like i said.... people's epithany points are going to be different... that’s right _abio the rest of us were to fucking dumb we’re sold a pup to thick to see it weren’t we do you realize how patronising you are on here same shit diffrent day atleast he did t say clusterfuck or the cliff edge lol
hey we all get sold pups.... some are bigger than others!
everytime for about 15 arsene wenger said.. "yes arsenal are championship winning material" i believe it.... until it got to that one game where i thought.... nope!
i've bought stuff that i've worn and thought wow great... looking back at it i think good god what were you thinking!!!
that dodgy perm... that bad fringe....
not saying we haven't ever... just we have all be sold them!!
"Never trust those Frenchies viva la brexit . Brexit is the mullet of hairstyles ...  | |||
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"that is a fair point..... but i bet your "epithany" moment comes before mine......
did you hear about the latest "drip" moment to come out of the mouth of our lovely PM today.....
since you are in derby... maybe your "epithany" moment will come when the boss of bombardier.... or the boss of toyota... come out and say stuff about their plants in derby.....
like i said.... people's epithany points are going to be different... that’s right _abio the rest of us were to fucking dumb we’re sold a pup to thick to see it weren’t we do you realize how patronising you are on here same shit diffrent day atleast he did t say clusterfuck or the cliff edge lol
hey we all get sold pups.... some are bigger than others!
everytime for about 15 arsene wenger said.. "yes arsenal are championship winning material" i believe it.... until it got to that one game where i thought.... nope!
i've bought stuff that i've worn and thought wow great... looking back at it i think good god what were you thinking!!!
that dodgy perm... that bad fringe....
not saying we haven't ever... just we have all be sold them!!
Never trust those Frenchies viva la brexit .
Brexit is the mullet of hairstyles ... "if that’s the case the eu must be the egg in a bun look | |||
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"that is a fair point..... but i bet your "epithany" moment comes before mine......
did you hear about the latest "drip" moment to come out of the mouth of our lovely PM today.....
since you are in derby... maybe your "epithany" moment will come when the boss of bombardier.... or the boss of toyota... come out and say stuff about their plants in derby.....
like i said.... people's epithany points are going to be different... that’s right _abio the rest of us were to fucking dumb we’re sold a pup to thick to see it weren’t we do you realize how patronising you are on here same shit diffrent day atleast he did t say clusterfuck or the cliff edge lol
hey we all get sold pups.... some are bigger than others!
everytime for about 15 arsene wenger said.. "yes arsenal are championship winning material" i believe it.... until it got to that one game where i thought.... nope!
i've bought stuff that i've worn and thought wow great... looking back at it i think good god what were you thinking!!!
that dodgy perm... that bad fringe....
not saying we haven't ever... just we have all be sold them!!
Never trust those Frenchies viva la brexit .
Brexit is the mullet of hairstyles ... if that’s the case the eu must be the egg in a bun look "I was thinking a basin cut one size fits all.. | |||
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"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from.I never wanted in that circus in the first place .I've bided my time and have never gone on like the remoaners we have today do . learn to respect the referendum vote like we did first time around .maybe then you will understand the word democracy and stop behaving like spoilt and pampered children .like it or not leave won ...getvon with your lives like most of us do " Great irony..  | |||
"that is a fair point..... but i bet your "epithany" moment comes before mine......
did you hear about the latest "drip" moment to come out of the mouth of our lovely PM today.....
since you are in derby... maybe your "epithany" moment will come when the boss of bombardier.... or the boss of toyota... come out and say stuff about their plants in derby.....
like i said.... people's epithany points are going to be different..."Don't you mean epiphany? | |||
"that is a fair point..... but i bet your "epithany" moment comes before mine......
did you hear about the latest "drip" moment to come out of the mouth of our lovely PM today.....
since you are in derby... maybe your "epithany" moment will come when the boss of bombardier.... or the boss of toyota... come out and say stuff about their plants in derby.....
like i said.... people's epithany points are going to be different... that’s right _abio the rest of us were to fucking dumb we’re sold a pup to thick to see it weren’t we do you realize how patronising you are on here same shit diffrent day atleast he did t say clusterfuck or the cliff edge lol
hey we all get sold pups.... some are bigger than others!
everytime for about 15 arsene wenger said.. "yes arsenal are championship winning material" i believe it.... until it got to that one game where i thought.... nope!
i've bought stuff that i've worn and thought wow great... looking back at it i think good god what were you thinking!!!
that dodgy perm... that bad fringe....
not saying we haven't ever... just we have all be sold them!!
"Well, there you go then...I knew from tge last time they won the Premier League, they were no longer Premier League winning material, so maybe a bit quicker on the uptake than you. BTW there's a difference between Championship and Premier League.... There's also no such thing as epithany! | |||
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"It has never been about economics. Which is why I'm baffled by those British nationalists who now seem to think economics will persuade the EU to let Britain have their cake and eat it. " For me, it was only about economics. I was happy with most other aspects. But I do think that the EU should have been run on a cost neutral basis ( as much as possible). I don't agree with countries joining that are taking out more than they put in. I know the supposed reason is to kickstart them into prosperity, but that's their problem, not mine. It always smacked of the richer countries merely controlling the poorer ones, indirectly, and claiming its all for their own good. Start an EU premier division and let's join that. | |||
"Trying to get an understanding of why people voted the way they did over 2 years ago is fine for a documentary maker, student etc - but the world has moved on. I'm interested in now and how the future is better managed - especially as we are at some cliff edge points. The crisis is here because the conservative party caused it and have exacerbated it, due to gross negligence and incompetence. Fix that. " I don’t think much has changed over the last two years. Most people seem to have stuck to the side they voted on. We don’t know anything now we didn’t know before the referendum. The whole thing is planning out roughly as expect, give or take some of the finer details. The Conservatives are in a lose/lose situation of their own making. | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from. there are two groups of people.... there were always going to be a certain base figure that were going to support leave regardless of what ever arguement were placed in front of them.... they are never going to change their mind!!! the rest of them... well they were sold a vision that is fact a pup!!! they were told things that would never happen, they were taken in by snake oil salesmen...... and the closer to the time we get... the more that vision is unwound and the reality will finally kick in... drip by drip like death by a thousand cuts at the end of the day people will have there own "epithany" moment at different times..... i think that is what will be more organic and that will only happen when things start to effect them!" You are talking a load of rot you have little or no understanding of people and you think that everyone will come round to your way of thinking and that your right,nothing is so cut and dry | |||
"Someone even told me after the Ryder Cup on Sunday "Bet you weren't thinking of this when you voted to leave - we won't be able to be in the European Team after next March." I kid you not...." Unbelievable we are part of Europe,it is a geographical thing nothing to do with the EU,Europe is a continent | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from. there are two groups of people.... there were always going to be a certain base figure that were going to support leave regardless of what ever arguement were placed in front of them.... they are never going to change their mind!!! the rest of them... well they were sold a vision that is fact a pup!!! they were told things that would never happen, they were taken in by snake oil salesmen...... and the closer to the time we get... the more that vision is unwound and the reality will finally kick in... drip by drip like death by a thousand cuts at the end of the day people will have there own "epithany" moment at different times..... i think that is what will be more organic and that will only happen when things start to effect them!You are talking a load of rot you have little or no understanding of people and you think that everyone will come round to your way of thinking and that your right,nothing is so cut and dry" Good use of the word “rot”, and yes human nature is complicated and we’re a varied lot with different values and priorities. History will look back on this as a horrible mistake for the UK, but it will be a long time before there is a general consensus among the general public here. | |||
"Someone even told me after the Ryder Cup on Sunday "Bet you weren't thinking of this when you voted to leave - we won't be able to be in the European Team after next March." I kid you not....Unbelievable we are part of Europe,it is a geographical thing nothing to do with the EU,Europe is a continent" Yes agree, but if we were told we couldn't take part in the Eurovision song contest anymore because we left the EU i think that would be a good thing. | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from." trouble is too many remoaners don't like losing .maybe there,should be a,run on dummies at boots . | |||
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"Someone even told me after the Ryder Cup on Sunday "Bet you weren't thinking of this when you voted to leave - we won't be able to be in the European Team after next March." I kid you not...." I wonder how President Macron felt having the tournament in France with not a single French golfer being good enough to make the European Team? LOL!!! And good old UK had 7 golfer's who contributed to the Ryder cup victory for Europe. | |||
"Someone even told me after the Ryder Cup on Sunday "Bet you weren't thinking of this when you voted to leave - we won't be able to be in the European Team after next March." I kid you not....Unbelievable we are part of Europe,it is a geographical thing nothing to do with the EU,Europe is a continent Yes agree, but if we were told we couldn't take part in the Eurovision song contest anymore because we left the EU i think that would be a good thing. "Second time I’ve agreed with a brexiteer in one day. | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from.trouble is too many remoaners don't like losing .maybe there,should be a,run on dummies at boots ." It's not a football competition. It's the future of our country. Why would I stop arguing for what believe is right and best for the UK just because we lost a vote? I'll continue to campaign to reverse this current decision until it is either reversed, I'm dead or I'm convinced leaving or staying out is better than remaining or rejoining. Just like leave supporters have done since 1975. Democracy doesn't end at any one result. | |||
"Someone even told me after the Ryder Cup on Sunday "Bet you weren't thinking of this when you voted to leave - we won't be able to be in the European Team after next March." I kid you not....Unbelievable we are part of Europe,it is a geographical thing nothing to do with the EU,Europe is a continent Yes agree, but if we were told we couldn't take part in the Eurovision song contest anymore because we left the EU i think that would be a good thing.
Second time I’ve agreed with a brexiteer in one day."Broken clock syndrome! | |||
"Someone even told me after the Ryder Cup on Sunday "Bet you weren't thinking of this when you voted to leave - we won't be able to be in the European Team after next March." I kid you not....Unbelievable we are part of Europe,it is a geographical thing nothing to do with the EU,Europe is a continent Yes agree, but if we were told we couldn't take part in the Eurovision song contest anymore because we left the EU i think that would be a good thing.
Second time I’ve agreed with a brexiteer in one day.
Broken clock syndrome!" | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from.trouble is too many remoaners don't like losing .maybe there,should be a,run on dummies at boots . It's not a football competition. It's the future of our country. Why would I stop arguing for what believe is right and best for the UK just because we lost a vote? I'll continue to campaign to reverse this current decision until it is either reversed, I'm dead or I'm convinced leaving or staying out is better than remaining or rejoining. Just like leave supporters have done since 1975. Democracy doesn't end at any one result. " when you say you will continue to campaign to reverse can you tell us exactly what you are doing there’s lots of remainers say same thing are you actively doing something to reverse it or just moaning in fab ? Not having a go at you I’d just like to know | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from.trouble is too many remoaners don't like losing .maybe there,should be a,run on dummies at boots . It's not a football competition. It's the future of our country. Why would I stop arguing for what believe is right and best for the UK just because we lost a vote? I'll continue to campaign to reverse this current decision until it is either reversed, I'm dead or I'm convinced leaving or staying out is better than remaining or rejoining. Just like leave supporters have done since 1975. Democracy doesn't end at any one result. when you say you will continue to campaign to reverse can you tell us exactly what you are doing there’s lots of remainers say same thing are you actively doing something to reverse it or just moaning in fab ? Not having a go at you I’d just like to know " Do you know that aside from the polar extremes, most normal people are open minded and prone to change their mind about things as they acquire new and/or different information. It is a perfectly normal reaction that normal, intelligent people absorb what is going on in the world around them and use what they absorb to influence their choices. It makes sense therefore that the more people who see that they may have voted for the wrong reasons because they see, hear and read contrary information at work, on TV and on social media. Many Remainers are doing a great job of continually and consistently pressing the argument of the facts of the Remain argument and as long as the Leave rebuttal continues to be “ you lost” or “ democracy” as opposed to a rebuttal of the arguments, so moderate Leavers begin to question their positions. It would actually work both ways, but the Leave argument has still got to evolve with any logical argument to back up the emotional “feeling” of independence, blue passports and less foreigners. | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from.trouble is too many remoaners don't like losing .maybe there,should be a,run on dummies at boots . It's not a football competition. It's the future of our country. Why would I stop arguing for what believe is right and best for the UK just because we lost a vote? I'll continue to campaign to reverse this current decision until it is either reversed, I'm dead or I'm convinced leaving or staying out is better than remaining or rejoining. Just like leave supporters have done since 1975. Democracy doesn't end at any one result. when you say you will continue to campaign to reverse can you tell us exactly what you are doing there’s lots of remainers say same thing are you actively doing something to reverse it or just moaning in fab ? Not having a go at you I’d just like to know Do you know that aside from the polar extremes, most normal people are open minded and prone to change their mind about things as they acquire new and/or different information. It is a perfectly normal reaction that normal, intelligent people absorb what is going on in the world around them and use what they absorb to influence their choices. It makes sense therefore that the more people who see that they may have voted for the wrong reasons because they see, hear and read contrary information at work, on TV and on social media. Many Remainers are doing a great job of continually and consistently pressing the argument of the facts of the Remain argument and as long as the Leave rebuttal continues to be “ you lost” or “ democracy” as opposed to a rebuttal of the arguments, so moderate Leavers begin to question their positions. It would actually work both ways, but the Leave argument has still got to evolve with any logical argument to back up the emotional “feeling” of independence, blue passports and less foreigners. " Well said .Now shut up and stop moaning like brexiters and kippers have done for the last 20 fucking years .Infact they are still moaning and they won. ..WTF | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from.trouble is too many remoaners don't like losing .maybe there,should be a,run on dummies at boots . It's not a football competition. It's the future of our country. Why would I stop arguing for what believe is right and best for the UK just because we lost a vote? I'll continue to campaign to reverse this current decision until it is either reversed, I'm dead or I'm convinced leaving or staying out is better than remaining or rejoining. Just like leave supporters have done since 1975. Democracy doesn't end at any one result. when you say you will continue to campaign to reverse can you tell us exactly what you are doing there’s lots of remainers say same thing are you actively doing something to reverse it or just moaning in fab ? Not having a go at you I’d just like to know Do you know that aside from the polar extremes, most normal people are open minded and prone to change their mind about things as they acquire new and/or different information. It is a perfectly normal reaction that normal, intelligent people absorb what is going on in the world around them and use what they absorb to influence their choices. It makes sense therefore that the more people who see that they may have voted for the wrong reasons because they see, hear and read contrary information at work, on TV and on social media. Many Remainers are doing a great job of continually and consistently pressing the argument of the facts of the Remain argument and as long as the Leave rebuttal continues to be “ you lost” or “ democracy” as opposed to a rebuttal of the arguments, so moderate Leavers begin to question their positions. It would actually work both ways, but the Leave argument has still got to evolve with any logical argument to back up the emotional “feeling” of independence, blue passports and less foreigners. " that’s a good point we all know ppl can change there minds but I don’t use social media I only use fab so I don’t know what’s going on on Facebook and the likes but I just asked cracker what he is doing to campaign about changing the result it’s a fair question to ask it was he who said it I don’t think many leavers are going to change there minds based on the posts on here after all you will know most end up with being called traitors and racists so when you say most ppl are open minded that’s only true until they come across someone who’s mind isn’t as open as there’s how they see it that’s when the name calling starts Or am I wrong ? | |||
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"I suppose the ultimate question for remainers is this. Do you actually want a full on United States of Europe? A USE where Britain, France, Germany et al would become no different to what Texas, Nevada, California Etc is to the USA. Federal power in Brussels being no different to federal power in Washington. Make no mistake that is where the EU's "ever closer union" mantra will take us all. If you are happy with that then fine, stick to you guns, but if not, then what? I understand the economic argument and even I would admit that the remain side would, on balance, probably win it, but not by as big a margin as we keep being told by the doom mongers. You can nit pick as much as you like about article this or paragraph that of this that or the other convention but ultimately that is the root of the sovereignty question. " see, now THAT'S what you call project fear | |||
"I suppose the ultimate question for remainers is this. Do you actually want a full on United States of Europe? A USE where Britain, France, Germany et al would become no different to what Texas, Nevada, California Etc is to the USA. Federal power in Brussels being no different to federal power in Washington. Make no mistake that is where the EU's "ever closer union" mantra will take us all. If you are happy with that then fine, stick to you guns, but if not, then what? I understand the economic argument and even I would admit that the remain side would, on balance, probably win it, but not by as big a margin as we keep being told by the doom mongers. You can nit pick as much as you like about article this or paragraph that of this that or the other convention but ultimately that is the root of the sovereignty question. see, now THAT'S what you call project fear" So you are saying that "ever closer union" doesn't exist. | |||
"...... that’s a good point we all know ppl can change there minds but I don’t use social media I only use fab so I don’t know what’s going on on Facebook and the likes but I just asked cracker what he is doing to campaign about changing the result it’s a fair question to ask it was he who said it I don’t think many leavers are going to change there minds based on the posts on here after all you will know most end up with being called traitors and racists so when you say most ppl are open minded that’s only true until they come across someone who’s mind isn’t as open as there’s how they see it that’s when the name calling starts Or am I wrong ?" Dunno, I ran out of breath halfway through reading it. | |||
"I suppose the ultimate question for remainers is this. Do you actually want a full on United States of Europe? A USE where Britain, France, Germany et al would become no different to what Texas, Nevada, California Etc is to the USA. Federal power in Brussels being no different to federal power in Washington. Make no mistake that is where the EU's "ever closer union" mantra will take us all. If you are happy with that then fine, stick to you guns, but if not, then what? I understand the economic argument and even I would admit that the remain side would, on balance, probably win it, but not by as big a margin as we keep being told by the doom mongers. You can nit pick as much as you like about article this or paragraph that of this that or the other convention but ultimately that is the root of the sovereignty question. " How is it? The UK had a permanent opt out of the concept of ever closer union. The Uk was never going to be a part of that and so if anyone voted Leave because of it, than that is another bunch of the Leave vote who were entirely misguided. | |||
"I suppose the ultimate question for remainers is this. Do you actually want a full on United States of Europe? A USE where Britain, France, Germany et al would become no different to what Texas, Nevada, California Etc is to the USA. Federal power in Brussels being no different to federal power in Washington. Make no mistake that is where the EU's "ever closer union" mantra will take us all. If you are happy with that then fine, stick to you guns, but if not, then what? I understand the economic argument and even I would admit that the remain side would, on balance, probably win it, but not by as big a margin as we keep being told by the doom mongers. You can nit pick as much as you like about article this or paragraph that of this that or the other convention but ultimately that is the root of the sovereignty question. see, now THAT'S what you call project fear So you are saying that "ever closer union" doesn't exist." you said that, not me | |||
"I suppose the ultimate question for remainers is this. Do you actually want a full on United States of Europe? A USE where Britain, France, Germany et al would become no different to what Texas, Nevada, California Etc is to the USA. Federal power in Brussels being no different to federal power in Washington. Make no mistake that is where the EU's "ever closer union" mantra will take us all. If you are happy with that then fine, stick to you guns, but if not, then what? I understand the economic argument and even I would admit that the remain side would, on balance, probably win it, but not by as big a margin as we keep being told by the doom mongers. You can nit pick as much as you like about article this or paragraph that of this that or the other convention but ultimately that is the root of the sovereignty question. see, now THAT'S what you call project fear So you are saying that "ever closer union" doesn't exist. you said that, not me " Oh no I didn't, oh yes you did. As usual with you it's back to infant school again. | |||
"I suppose the ultimate question for remainers is this. Do you actually want a full on United States of Europe? A USE where Britain, France, Germany et al would become no different to what Texas, Nevada, California Etc is to the USA. Federal power in Brussels being no different to federal power in Washington. Make no mistake that is where the EU's "ever closer union" mantra will take us all. If you are happy with that then fine, stick to you guns, but if not, then what? I understand the economic argument and even I would admit that the remain side would, on balance, probably win it, but not by as big a margin as we keep being told by the doom mongers. You can nit pick as much as you like about article this or paragraph that of this that or the other convention but ultimately that is the root of the sovereignty question. How is it? The UK had a permanent opt out of the concept of ever closer union. The Uk was never going to be a part of that and so if anyone voted Leave because of it, than that is another bunch of the Leave vote who were entirely misguided." And you really believe that the opt out would have lasted? The opt out was nothing more than kicking the can down the road exercise for a few years until they got a compliant PM who would tear it up. | |||
"I suppose the ultimate question for remainers is this. Do you actually want a full on United States of Europe? A USE where Britain, France, Germany et al would become no different to what Texas, Nevada, California Etc is to the USA. Federal power in Brussels being no different to federal power in Washington. Make no mistake that is where the EU's "ever closer union" mantra will take us all. If you are happy with that then fine, stick to you guns, but if not, then what? I understand the economic argument and even I would admit that the remain side would, on balance, probably win it, but not by as big a margin as we keep being told by the doom mongers. You can nit pick as much as you like about article this or paragraph that of this that or the other convention but ultimately that is the root of the sovereignty question. see, now THAT'S what you call project fear" We see this irrational fear of the EU all the time on here .My favourite is germany lost the war but won Europe response .The same people bang on about keeping the UK together in union but want Europe to fall apart . | |||
"...... that’s a good point we all know ppl can change there minds but I don’t use social media I only use fab so I don’t know what’s going on on Facebook and the likes but I just asked cracker what he is doing to campaign about changing the result it’s a fair question to ask it was he who said it I don’t think many leavers are going to change there minds based on the posts on here after all you will know most end up with being called traitors and racists so when you say most ppl are open minded that’s only true until they come across someone who’s mind isn’t as open as there’s how they see it that’s when the name calling starts Or am I wrong ? Dunno, I ran out of breath halfway through reading it." lol was it the part were I say about being called traitors and racists lol because you know you’ve posted that lots of times haven’t you mate lol | |||
"And you really believe that the opt out would have lasted? The opt out was nothing more than kicking the can down the road exercise for a few years until they got a compliant PM who would tear it up." Why would it not have lasted? The UK has negotiated many opt-outs and rebates that are still in place. Having the flexibility to change your mind in the face of changing circumstances is a good thing. That said if you think that a future sitting PM would/could have unilaterally torn up that Agreement on a whim then you really are the trembling snowflake. The world evolves and changes and that change is sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. What the future holds will quite rightly be decided by future generations and they may collectively choose to take an entirely different path to what we choose today. Man has always tried to influence the actions of future generations and I suppose it is human nature to do so. Unfortunately, future generations will do what is right for them. The opt-out from ever closer union is lawful and binding, but yes you are right - future generations may have a different opinion to the current snowflakey generation and they may decide than mankind is what is important, not lines on a map. Who knows. | |||
"I suppose the ultimate question for remainers is this. Do you actually want a full on United States of Europe? A USE where Britain, France, Germany et al would become no different to what Texas, Nevada, California Etc is to the USA. Federal power in Brussels being no different to federal power in Washington. Make no mistake that is where the EU's "ever closer union" mantra will take us all. If you are happy with that then fine, stick to you guns, but if not, then what? I understand the economic argument and even I would admit that the remain side would, on balance, probably win it, but not by as big a margin as we keep being told by the doom mongers. You can nit pick as much as you like about article this or paragraph that of this that or the other convention but ultimately that is the root of the sovereignty question. see, now THAT'S what you call project fear So you are saying that "ever closer union" doesn't exist." I understand where your comming from but I am confused. You quote States in the US and that Europe will follow that path - have to disagree - the difference being is that each country in Europe has it's own language, culture etc etc - there is not a common language thank God. It's different. The "union" is about a collective peace - as individual nations they are NOT STRONG enough to defend themselves against the likes of Russia- UK included! Each country will never give up it's sovereignty - they can leave at any time as the UK is doing. The dream of Europe was the brainchild of Churchill - keep peace in Europe. The single market was Thatcher another Brit - so how would you feel as a migrant living in Germany why live there - when sovereignty is sooo important to you? Also if the UK imposes a minimum income of £30,000 and the EU do the same - so many UK pensioners are going to be forced back to the UK which will have adverse effects on the NHS.I do feel that the UK has got to leave - if only to prove who was right or who was wrong. I don't think that the UK will "heal" from this for many many years especially if project fear is proven to be right. As for the conservative elites they will be alright | |||
"...... that’s a good point we all know ppl can change there minds but I don’t use social media I only use fab so I don’t know what’s going on on Facebook and the likes but I just asked cracker what he is doing to campaign about changing the result it’s a fair question to ask it was he who said it I don’t think many leavers are going to change there minds based on the posts on here after all you will know most end up with being called traitors and racists so when you say most ppl are open minded that’s only true until they come across someone who’s mind isn’t as open as there’s how they see it that’s when the name calling starts Or am I wrong ? Dunno, I ran out of breath halfway through reading it. lol was it the part were I say about being called traitors and racists lol because you know you’ve posted that lots of times haven’t you mate lol " OK For the record... Not all Leave voters were racists, but all racists were Leave voters. Not all Leave voters were xenophobic, foreigner fearing snowflakes, but all of the xenophobic, foreigner fearing snowflakes voted Leave. To willfully promote the destruction of your country is traitorous. Therefore, the promotion of a policy that will cause great harm economically and to the people of this country is traitorous by nature. If it is the case that Brexit will be severely damaging to this country and to the people who live in it, then those people who actively promote such a destructive course of action are traitors to the country and their fellow countrymen. Happy with that? | |||
"...... that’s a good point we all know ppl can change there minds but I don’t use social media I only use fab so I don’t know what’s going on on Facebook and the likes but I just asked cracker what he is doing to campaign about changing the result it’s a fair question to ask it was he who said it I don’t think many leavers are going to change there minds based on the posts on here after all you will know most end up with being called traitors and racists so when you say most ppl are open minded that’s only true until they come across someone who’s mind isn’t as open as there’s how they see it that’s when the name calling starts Or am I wrong ? Dunno, I ran out of breath halfway through reading it. lol was it the part were I say about being called traitors and racists lol because you know you’ve posted that lots of times haven’t you mate lol OK For the record... Not all Leave voters were racists, but all racists were Leave voters. Not all Leave voters were xenophobic, foreigner fearing snowflakes, but all of the xenophobic, foreigner fearing snowflakes voted Leave. To willfully promote the destruction of your country is traitorous. Therefore, the promotion of a policy that will cause great harm economically and to the people of this country is traitorous by nature. If it is the case that Brexit will be severely damaging to this country and to the people who live in it, then those people who actively promote such a destructive course of action are traitors to the country and their fellow countrymen. Happy with that?" more than happy woth that thank you but like you say IF it damages the country then couldn’t you say the same about remainers if the U.K. isn’t damaged and prospers then | |||
"And you really believe that the opt out would have lasted? The opt out was nothing more than kicking the can down the road exercise for a few years until they got a compliant PM who would tear it up. Why would it not have lasted? The UK has negotiated many opt-outs and rebates that are still in place. Having the flexibility to change your mind in the face of changing circumstances is a good thing. That said if you think that a future sitting PM would/could have unilaterally torn up that Agreement on a whim then you really are the trembling snowflake. The world evolves and changes and that change is sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. What the future holds will quite rightly be decided by future generations and they may collectively choose to take an entirely different path to what we choose today. Man has always tried to influence the actions of future generations and I suppose it is human nature to do so. Unfortunately, future generations will do what is right for them. The opt-out from ever closer union is lawful and binding, but yes you are right - future generations may have a different opinion to the current snowflakey generation and they may decide than mankind is what is important, not lines on a map. Who knows." I thought the rebate Mrs T negotiated was "lawful and binding" until the Blair creature gave half of it back. | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from.trouble is too many remoaners don't like losing .maybe there,should be a,run on dummies at boots . It's not a football competition. It's the future of our country. Why would I stop arguing for what believe is right and best for the UK just because we lost a vote? I'll continue to campaign to reverse this current decision until it is either reversed, I'm dead or I'm convinced leaving or staying out is better than remaining or rejoining. Just like leave supporters have done since 1975. Democracy doesn't end at any one result. when you say you will continue to campaign to reverse can you tell us exactly what you are doing there’s lots of remainers say same thing are you actively doing something to reverse it or just moaning in fab ? Not having a go at you I’d just like to know " I'm actively involved in the People's Vote Campaign and Keep Britain in European Union. My main activity is researching Leave sites and producing counter arguments. I've been on a number of anti-BREXIT marches including the recent London and Liverpool ones and I will be at the London one on 20 October. I regularly post about the issues on Facebook and other social media. I do what I can and hope it's enough. | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from.trouble is too many remoaners don't like losing .maybe there,should be a,run on dummies at boots . It's not a football competition. It's the future of our country. Why would I stop arguing for what believe is right and best for the UK just because we lost a vote? I'll continue to campaign to reverse this current decision until it is either reversed, I'm dead or I'm convinced leaving or staying out is better than remaining or rejoining. Just like leave supporters have done since 1975. Democracy doesn't end at any one result. when you say you will continue to campaign to reverse can you tell us exactly what you are doing there’s lots of remainers say same thing are you actively doing something to reverse it or just moaning in fab ? Not having a go at you I’d just like to know Do you know that aside from the polar extremes, most normal people are open minded and prone to change their mind about things as they acquire new and/or different information. It is a perfectly normal reaction that normal, intelligent people absorb what is going on in the world around them and use what they absorb to influence their choices. It makes sense therefore that the more people who see that they may have voted for the wrong reasons because they see, hear and read contrary information at work, on TV and on social media. Many Remainers are doing a great job of continually and consistently pressing the argument of the facts of the Remain argument and as long as the Leave rebuttal continues to be “ you lost” or “ democracy” as opposed to a rebuttal of the arguments, so moderate Leavers begin to question their positions. It would actually work both ways, but the Leave argument has still got to evolve with any logical argument to back up the emotional “feeling” of independence, blue passports and less foreigners. that’s a good point we all know ppl can change there minds but I don’t use social media I only use fab so I don’t know what’s going on on Facebook and the likes but I just asked cracker what he is doing to campaign about changing the result it’s a fair question to ask it was he who said it I don’t think many leavers are going to change there minds based on the posts on here after all you will know most end up with being called traitors and racists so when you say most ppl are open minded that’s only true until they come across someone who’s mind isn’t as open as there’s how they see it that’s when the name calling starts Or am I wrong ?" I think both sides, including myself, have been guilty of resorting to name calling and childish insults. I try to make a point now of not doing that. | |||
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"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave?" if they are doing this, then it suggests the 3 monthly tests aren’t working. And for those where the governments own tests are failing and there is this drain, if suspect it will stop after we leave. Be interested to know if this is a big economic victory. | |||
"I suppose the ultimate question for remainers is this. Do you actually want a full on United States of Europe? A USE where Britain, France, Germany et al would become no different to what Texas, Nevada, California Etc is to the USA. Federal power in Brussels being no different to federal power in Washington. Make no mistake that is where the EU's "ever closer union" mantra will take us all. If you are happy with that then fine, stick to you guns, but if not, then what? I understand the economic argument and even I would admit that the remain side would, on balance, probably win it, but not by as big a margin as we keep being told by the doom mongers. You can nit pick as much as you like about article this or paragraph that of this that or the other convention but ultimately that is the root of the sovereignty question. How is it? The UK had a permanent opt out of the concept of ever closer union. The Uk was never going to be a part of that and so if anyone voted Leave because of it, than that is another bunch of the Leave vote who were entirely misguided. And you really believe that the opt out would have lasted? The opt out was nothing more than kicking the can down the road exercise for a few years until they got a compliant PM who would tear it up." I think the opt out will last for as long as the UK government believe it's in Britain's national interests for it to last, which in my opinion would be in perpetuity. I also believe that an EU without the UK in it is far more likely to end up as some sort of federal super state than if we remain and that a federal super state run by a Franco German hegomony, that we would have no influence over, surrounding the UK from Norway in the north to Brittany in the west would be the worst possible outcome imaginable. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave?" I'm not sure that was ever really happening. That's not to say that some EU migrants haven't communicated benefit fraud. Just like British people, some will have but I see no evidence that this is an endemic problem. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave?" see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from.trouble is too many remoaners don't like losing .maybe there,should be a,run on dummies at boots . It's not a football competition. It's the future of our country. Why would I stop arguing for what believe is right and best for the UK just because we lost a vote? I'll continue to campaign to reverse this current decision until it is either reversed, I'm dead or I'm convinced leaving or staying out is better than remaining or rejoining. Just like leave supporters have done since 1975. Democracy doesn't end at any one result. when you say you will continue to campaign to reverse can you tell us exactly what you are doing there’s lots of remainers say same thing are you actively doing something to reverse it or just moaning in fab ? Not having a go at you I’d just like to know I'm actively involved in the People's Vote Campaign and Keep Britain in European Union. My main activity is researching Leave sites and producing counter arguments. I've been on a number of anti-BREXIT marches including the recent London and Liverpool ones and I will be at the London one on 20 October. I regularly post about the issues on Facebook and other social media. I do what I can and hope it's enough. " follow jason j hunter on twitter...... its the most rational thing i have seen in regards to what is going to happen, especially in a no deal brexit scenario... he was international trade deal negoiator and has been almost spot on telling people everything that will happen months before the government come round to admitting it.... | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? I'm not sure that was ever really happening. That's not to say that some EU migrants haven't communicated benefit fraud. Just like British people, some will have but I see no evidence that this is an endemic problem." Hmmm, maybe the eastern European tradesmen just had a lower standard of living expectation, and that's how they managed to undercut the uk tradesmen? Maybe the preference for cash payment was just Some kind of traditional thing? | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? I'm not sure that was ever really happening. That's not to say that some EU migrants haven't communicated benefit fraud. Just like British people, some will have but I see no evidence that this is an endemic problem. Hmmm, maybe the eastern European tradesmen just had a lower standard of living expectation, and that's how they managed to undercut the uk tradesmen? Maybe the preference for cash payment was just Some kind of traditional thing? " It's the customers that prefer to pay cash in the building trade . To either avoid the VAT or usually get 10% knocked off the job .Standard. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... " How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy?" I know it's a problem all those ex pats in Spain putting their life savings into villas on the costas converting proper money into Euro land money .They get their pensions sent out there also how does that benefit us hardworking brits .Criminal . | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? I know it's a problem all those ex pats in Spain putting their life savings into villas on the costas converting proper money into Euro land money .They get their pensions sent out there also how does that benefit us hardworking brits .Criminal . "Are they under cutting local tradesmen, or employing them? | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy?" they are still paying taxes here.... they are still providing services here... they are still spending money to live here! on rent.. on food.. and on everything else they have to here! gas electricity, water, transport ect ect so what is the difference between someone sending their disposable income to another country... and me hoarding my disposable income in a bank account and not spending it! | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from.trouble is too many remoaners don't like losing .maybe there,should be a,run on dummies at boots . It's not a football competition. It's the future of our country. Why would I stop arguing for what believe is right and best for the UK just because we lost a vote? I'll continue to campaign to reverse this current decision until it is either reversed, I'm dead or I'm convinced leaving or staying out is better than remaining or rejoining. Just like leave supporters have done since 1975. Democracy doesn't end at any one result. when you say you will continue to campaign to reverse can you tell us exactly what you are doing there’s lots of remainers say same thing are you actively doing something to reverse it or just moaning in fab ? Not having a go at you I’d just like to know I'm actively involved in the People's Vote Campaign and Keep Britain in European Union. My main activity is researching Leave sites and producing counter arguments. I've been on a number of anti-BREXIT marches including the recent London and Liverpool ones and I will be at the London one on 20 October. I regularly post about the issues on Facebook and other social media. I do what I can and hope it's enough. " well good for you bud atleast it’s what you believe in can’t fault ya on that | |||
"I suppose the ultimate question for remainers is this. Do you actually want a full on United States of Europe? A USE where Britain, France, Germany et al would become no different to what Texas, Nevada, California Etc is to the USA. Federal power in Brussels being no different to federal power in Washington. Make no mistake that is where the EU's "ever closer union" mantra will take us all. If you are happy with that then fine, stick to you guns, but if not, then what? I understand the economic argument and even I would admit that the remain side would, on balance, probably win it, but not by as big a margin as we keep being told by the doom mongers. You can nit pick as much as you like about article this or paragraph that of this that or the other convention but ultimately that is the root of the sovereignty question. see, now THAT'S what you call project fear So you are saying that "ever closer union" doesn't exist. I understand where your comming from but I am confused. You quote States in the US and that Europe will follow that path - have to disagree - the difference being is that each country in Europe has it's own language, culture etc etc - there is not a common language thank God. It's different. The "union" is about a collective peace - as individual nations they are NOT STRONG enough to defend themselves against the likes of Russia- UK included! Each country will never give up it's sovereignty - they can leave at any time as the UK is doing. The dream of Europe was the brainchild of Churchill - keep peace in Europe. The single market was Thatcher another Brit - so how would you feel as a migrant living in Germany why live there - when sovereignty is sooo important to you? Also if the UK imposes a minimum income of £30,000 and the EU do the same - so many UK pensioners are going to be forced back to the UK which will have adverse effects on the NHS.I do feel that the UK has got to leave - if only to prove who was right or who was wrong. I don't think that the UK will "heal" from this for many many years especially if project fear is proven to be right. As for the conservative elites they will be alright "Europe doesn't need the EU to defend itself from Russia, we have Nato for that. All these same old arguments were made 2 years ago. We had a people's vote in 2016, based on all the arguments around Security, the economy, immigration, Sovereignty and a majority chose to Leave. Yet another day of remoaners chucking their toys out of their prams on fab forum it seems. | |||
"Remainers mostly talk about the economic argument when it comes to BREXIT and, for the most part, win that argument hands down. But still BREXIT support stays above 40%. We have to ask ourselves why. And if you do you'll soon realise that most BREXITers aren't supporting BREXIT because they think we'll be economically better of. They support BREXIT because they want their sovereignty back. It's the sovereignty argument we need to win on also. A good place to start, to try and understand where they are coming from, is The Bruges Group web site. I would recommend that all Remainers read the contents of this site. Then you'll at least understand where BREXITERS are coming from.trouble is too many remoaners don't like losing .maybe there,should be a,run on dummies at boots . It's not a football competition. It's the future of our country. Why would I stop arguing for what believe is right and best for the UK just because we lost a vote? I'll continue to campaign to reverse this current decision until it is either reversed, I'm dead or I'm convinced leaving or staying out is better than remaining or rejoining. Just like leave supporters have done since 1975. Democracy doesn't end at any one result. when you say you will continue to campaign to reverse can you tell us exactly what you are doing there’s lots of remainers say same thing are you actively doing something to reverse it or just moaning in fab ? Not having a go at you I’d just like to know I'm actively involved in the People's Vote Campaign and Keep Britain in European Union. My main activity is researching Leave sites and producing counter arguments. I've been on a number of anti-BREXIT marches including the recent London and Liverpool ones and I will be at the London one on 20 October. I regularly post about the issues on Facebook and other social media. I do what I can and hope it's enough. follow jason j hunter on twitter...... its the most rational thing i have seen in regards to what is going to happen, especially in a no deal brexit scenario... he was international trade deal negoiator and has been almost spot on telling people everything that will happen months before the government come round to admitting it.... " | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? they are still paying taxes here.... they are still providing services here... they are still spending money to live here! on rent.. on food.. and on everything else they have to here! gas electricity, water, transport ect ect so what is the difference between someone sending their disposable income to another country... and me hoarding my disposable income in a bank account and not spending it!" So if a polish plumber pays tax, pays to live, sends his cash home. And puts a "native" plumber out of work. How is that better for the economy? | |||
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"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave?" Believe it or not but I know Brits here in France doing exactly the same! They are illegal, undercutting French trades, not insured, not paying tax, not regulated but thanks to brexit it will stop - a good result for a change. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? Believe it or not but I know Brits here in France doing exactly the same! They are illegal, undercutting French trades, not insured, not paying tax, not regulated but thanks to brexit it will stop - a good result for a change." about time. | |||
"Most of the jobs they do are in hospitality food and drink manufacturing there not that many who work in construction even less in social care the smallest amount are in health so realy it shouldn’t be that hard to fill them jobs " can i pull you up on the health and social care reliance we place on foreign nationals... According to the analysis using Office for National Statistics data, 220,000 social care staff in England, 17% of the total, are foreign nationals. Around 139,000 out of 1.2 million staff report a non-British nationality. This is 12.5% of all staff for whom a nationality is known, or one in every eight. Between them, these staff hold 200 different non-British nationalities. Around 62,000 are nationals of other EU countries - 5.6% of NHS staff in England the classic example is radiography..... we have to get most of the recruited staff in from spain and italy at the moment because we are not producing enough of our own..... | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? Believe it or not but I know Brits here in France doing exactly the same! They are illegal, undercutting French trades, not insured, not paying tax, not regulated but thanks to brexit it will stop - a good result for a change." For years Brits in Spain have rented their properties out illegally, conducted black market building, gardening and landscaping works and organised cut priced “airport runs.” The Spanish have slowly but surely fixed their system to make this kind of thing more difficult, but not impossible. Of course let’s be real here, Brits beating the system abroad are heroic, but foreigners beating the system here need arresting and deporting. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? Believe it or not but I know Brits here in France doing exactly the same! They are illegal, undercutting French trades, not insured, not paying tax, not regulated but thanks to brexit it will stop - a good result for a change. For years Brits in Spain have rented their properties out illegally, conducted black market building, gardening and landscaping works and organised cut priced “airport runs.” The Spanish have slowly but surely fixed their system to make this kind of thing more difficult, but not impossible. Of course let’s be real here, Brits beating the system abroad are heroic, but foreigners beating the system here need arresting and deporting." The difference is the spanish have been fixing the system without being accused of racism. | |||
"Most of the jobs they do are in hospitality food and drink manufacturing there not that many who work in construction even less in social care the smallest amount are in health so realy it shouldn’t be that hard to fill them jobs can i pull you up on the health and social care reliance we place on foreign nationals... According to the analysis using Office for National Statistics data, 220,000 social care staff in England, 17% of the total, are foreign nationals. Around 139,000 out of 1.2 million staff report a non-British nationality. This is 12.5% of all staff for whom a nationality is known, or one in every eight. Between them, these staff hold 200 different non-British nationalities. Around 62,000 are nationals of other EU countries - 5.6% of NHS staff in England the classic example is radiography..... we have to get most of the recruited staff in from spain and italy at the moment because we are not producing enough of our own....." I’m just quoting the bbc from 2016 check it out most of the jobs are hospitalit food and drink manufacturing _abio you live in the northeast you know as well as I do we don’t see same numbers in the hospitals as the south I’m in a small hospital daily and can tell you there’s one overseas worker a German doctor but like I say it’s small about 50 staff the wife works in a care Home none are in that either but if the numbers had of been allowed to keep coming as they were that would of soon changed | |||
"Most of the jobs they do are in hospitality food and drink manufacturing there not that many who work in construction even less in social care the smallest amount are in health so realy it shouldn’t be that hard to fill them jobs can i pull you up on the health and social care reliance we place on foreign nationals... According to the analysis using Office for National Statistics data, 220,000 social care staff in England, 17% of the total, are foreign nationals. Around 139,000 out of 1.2 million staff report a non-British nationality. This is 12.5% of all staff for whom a nationality is known, or one in every eight. Between them, these staff hold 200 different non-British nationalities. Around 62,000 are nationals of other EU countries - 5.6% of NHS staff in England the classic example is radiography..... we have to get most of the recruited staff in from spain and italy at the moment because we are not producing enough of our own..... I’m just quoting the bbc from 2016 check it out most of the jobs are hospitalit food and drink manufacturing _abio you live in the northeast you know as well as I do we don’t see same numbers in the hospitals as the south I’m in a small hospital daily and can tell you there’s one overseas worker a German doctor but like I say it’s small about 50 staff the wife works in a care Home none are in that either but if the numbers had of been allowed to keep coming as they were that would of soon changed " the ONS figures i am quoting are the ones from 2018..... they are for England only.. so you can add figures for Soctland, wales and northern ireland i think you'll find there are a lot more EU nationals working in care homes and in hospitals in the north east than you think.... you are more likely be treated by an EU national, than you are to be treated next to one.... | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? they are still paying taxes here.... they are still providing services here... they are still spending money to live here! on rent.. on food.. and on everything else they have to here! gas electricity, water, transport ect ect so what is the difference between someone sending their disposable income to another country... and me hoarding my disposable income in a bank account and not spending it! So if a polish plumber pays tax, pays to live, sends his cash home. And puts a "native" plumber out of work. How is that better for the economy? " It is exactly what money businesses here do when owned by foreign capital - send the profits abroad. I believe over half the FTSE 100 companies are owned by foreign money. The largest operator in the North Sea is French, for example, as is the country’s largest electricity producer. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? they are still paying taxes here.... they are still providing services here... they are still spending money to live here! on rent.. on food.. and on everything else they have to here! gas electricity, water, transport ect ect so what is the difference between someone sending their disposable income to another country... and me hoarding my disposable income in a bank account and not spending it! So if a polish plumber pays tax, pays to live, sends his cash home. And puts a "native" plumber out of work. How is that better for the economy? It is exactly what money businesses here do when owned by foreign capital - send the profits abroad. I believe over half the FTSE 100 companies are owned by foreign money. The largest operator in the North Sea is French, for example, as is the country’s largest electricity producer." Exactly, and that's all happened while we've been inside the European union. Time for a change. | |||
"Most of the jobs they do are in hospitality food and drink manufacturing there not that many who work in construction even less in social care the smallest amount are in health so realy it shouldn’t be that hard to fill them jobs can i pull you up on the health and social care reliance we place on foreign nationals... According to the analysis using Office for National Statistics data, 220,000 social care staff in England, 17% of the total, are foreign nationals. Around 139,000 out of 1.2 million staff report a non-British nationality. This is 12.5% of all staff for whom a nationality is known, or one in every eight. Between them, these staff hold 200 different non-British nationalities. Around 62,000 are nationals of other EU countries - 5.6% of NHS staff in England the classic example is radiography..... we have to get most of the recruited staff in from spain and italy at the moment because we are not producing enough of our own..... I’m just quoting the bbc from 2016 check it out most of the jobs are hospitalit food and drink manufacturing _abio you live in the northeast you know as well as I do we don’t see same numbers in the hospitals as the south I’m in a small hospital daily and can tell you there’s one overseas worker a German doctor but like I say it’s small about 50 staff the wife works in a care Home none are in that either but if the numbers had of been allowed to keep coming as they were that would of soon changed the ONS figures i am quoting are the ones from 2018..... they are for England only.. so you can add figures for Soctland, wales and northern ireland i think you'll find there are a lot more EU nationals working in care homes and in hospitals in the north east than you think.... you are more likely be treated by an EU national, than you are to be treated next to one...." I read and here that all the time but it’s not what iv came across iv never came across an eu nurse or care worker it maybe that’s just teesside tho | |||
"Most of the jobs they do are in hospitality food and drink manufacturing there not that many who work in construction even less in social care the smallest amount are in health so realy it shouldn’t be that hard to fill them jobs can i pull you up on the health and social care reliance we place on foreign nationals... According to the analysis using Office for National Statistics data, 220,000 social care staff in England, 17% of the total, are foreign nationals. Around 139,000 out of 1.2 million staff report a non-British nationality. This is 12.5% of all staff for whom a nationality is known, or one in every eight. Between them, these staff hold 200 different non-British nationalities. Around 62,000 are nationals of other EU countries - 5.6% of NHS staff in England the classic example is radiography..... we have to get most of the recruited staff in from spain and italy at the moment because we are not producing enough of our own..... I’m just quoting the bbc from 2016 check it out most of the jobs are hospitalit food and drink manufacturing _abio you live in the northeast you know as well as I do we don’t see same numbers in the hospitals as the south I’m in a small hospital daily and can tell you there’s one overseas worker a German doctor but like I say it’s small about 50 staff the wife works in a care Home none are in that either but if the numbers had of been allowed to keep coming as they were that would of soon changed the ONS figures i am quoting are the ones from 2018..... they are for England only.. so you can add figures for Soctland, wales and northern ireland i think you'll find there are a lot more EU nationals working in care homes and in hospitals in the north east than you think.... you are more likely be treated by an EU national, than you are to be treated next to one.... I read and here that all the time but it’s not what iv came across iv never came across an eu nurse or care worker it maybe that’s just teesside tho " But you MUST have done! They're all doing the jobs the "natives" feel that they're too good for! | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? they are still paying taxes here.... they are still providing services here... they are still spending money to live here! on rent.. on food.. and on everything else they have to here! gas electricity, water, transport ect ect so what is the difference between someone sending their disposable income to another country... and me hoarding my disposable income in a bank account and not spending it! So if a polish plumber pays tax, pays to live, sends his cash home. And puts a "native" plumber out of work. How is that better for the economy? It is exactly what money businesses here do when owned by foreign capital - send the profits abroad. I believe over half the FTSE 100 companies are owned by foreign money. The largest operator in the North Sea is French, for example, as is the country’s largest electricity producer. Exactly, and that's all happened while we've been inside the European union. Time for a change. "Not sure how being out will change this. Unless we adopt china’s approach to foreign investment. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? I'm not sure that was ever really happening. That's not to say that some EU migrants haven't communicated benefit fraud. Just like British people, some will have but I see no evidence that this is an endemic problem. Hmmm, maybe the eastern European tradesmen just had a lower standard of living expectation, and that's how they managed to undercut the uk tradesmen? Maybe the preference for cash payment was just Some kind of traditional thing? " There have always been tradesmen who prefer to be paid in cash. Sometimes for legitimate reason (cash flow, banking charges etc) and sometimes for other. I have not found that Polish or other EU tradesmen are any worse or better than native British. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy?" They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? they are still paying taxes here.... they are still providing services here... they are still spending money to live here! on rent.. on food.. and on everything else they have to here! gas electricity, water, transport ect ect so what is the difference between someone sending their disposable income to another country... and me hoarding my disposable income in a bank account and not spending it! So if a polish plumber pays tax, pays to live, sends his cash home. And puts a "native" plumber out of work. How is that better for the economy? " I don't know many out of work plumbers to be honest. I think there's enough demand for plumbers to accommodate even a few more. I definitely seem to be paying the same amount for a plumbers visit regardless of the nationality of the plumber. I could just as easily replace the word plumber with electrician too. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy." But when they put the local tradesmen out of work, how does that help? | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy. But when they put the local tradesmen out of work, how does that help?" Like I said, I don't believe it does. I believe there is enough demand for both. It's called fair competition. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? they are still paying taxes here.... they are still providing services here... they are still spending money to live here! on rent.. on food.. and on everything else they have to here! gas electricity, water, transport ect ect so what is the difference between someone sending their disposable income to another country... and me hoarding my disposable income in a bank account and not spending it! So if a polish plumber pays tax, pays to live, sends his cash home. And puts a "native" plumber out of work. How is that better for the economy? It is exactly what money businesses here do when owned by foreign capital - send the profits abroad. I believe over half the FTSE 100 companies are owned by foreign money. The largest operator in the North Sea is French, for example, as is the country’s largest electricity producer. Exactly, and that's all happened while we've been inside the European union. Time for a change. "It has nothing to do with EU membership and everything to do with domestic policy and ideology. For example, our government is allergic to any sort of nationalised industry. But it is quite happy if the nationalised industries of France, Gemany or China want to run our plants and services. Hinkley Point C power station is the best example. Consumers here will be paying through the nose for 35 years to ensure the communist Government of China and their French government partners get a return on their investment. That has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with the warped ideology of the UK government. | |||
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"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy. But when they put the local tradesmen out of work, how does that help? Like I said, I don't believe it does. I believe there is enough demand for both. It's called fair competition." You see your problem, YOU don't belive it does. YOU belive it's fair competition. However, millions of people don't belive you. They believe people like you have never had your job and your home and your way of life put at risk by an immigrant worker. And they are the millions who voted leave. You saying I don't believe that's the case won't change their minds! This is why remain voters like us need to pull our high and mighty heads out of our perfumed asses and try and understand how the working man thinks. Because simply dictating how we think he should vote from the comfortable deck of our yacht, moored in Poole harbour, isn't going to win us any friends. Well that's what i believe anyway... | |||
" But you MUST have done! They're all doing the jobs the "natives" feel that they're too good for! " see that is taking a statement and twisting it out of context to try and suit your narrative.... you are conflating the low skilled positions with positions that are so specialist that we don't for one reason or another produce enough people of our own.... when we talk about the NHS a lot of it is to fill positions that we don't have enough of own people far... so lets go back and take the example of radiography... and having to go get them from spain and italy for example..... would you rather have to people working here.... or would you rather have to wait much longer in A&E.... and then probably have to wait longer for follow up appointements.... because we didnt have people who were trained? | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy. But when they put the local tradesmen out of work, how does that help? Like I said, I don't believe it does. I believe there is enough demand for both. It's called fair competition. You see your problem, YOU don't belive it does. YOU belive it's fair competition. However, millions of people don't belive you. They believe people like you have never had your job and your home and your way of life put at risk by an immigrant worker. And they are the millions who voted leave. You saying I don't believe that's the case won't change their minds! This is why remain voters like us need to pull our high and mighty heads out of our perfumed asses and try and understand how the working man thinks. Because simply dictating how we think he should vote from the comfortable deck of our yacht, moored in Poole harbour, isn't going to win us any friends. Well that's what i believe anyway... " I agree. | |||
"And you really believe that the opt out would have lasted? The opt out was nothing more than kicking the can down the road exercise for a few years until they got a compliant PM who would tear it up. Why would it not have lasted? The UK has negotiated many opt-outs and rebates that are still in place. Having the flexibility to change your mind in the face of changing circumstances is a good thing. That said if you think that a future sitting PM would/could have unilaterally torn up that Agreement on a whim then you really are the trembling snowflake. The world evolves and changes and that change is sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. What the future holds will quite rightly be decided by future generations and they may collectively choose to take an entirely different path to what we choose today. Man has always tried to influence the actions of future generations and I suppose it is human nature to do so. Unfortunately, future generations will do what is right for them. The opt-out from ever closer union is lawful and binding, but yes you are right - future generations may have a different opinion to the current snowflakey generation and they may decide than mankind is what is important, not lines on a map. Who knows." Didn't Tony Blair give part of our rebate back? | |||
"...... that’s a good point we all know ppl can change there minds but I don’t use social media I only use fab so I don’t know what’s going on on Facebook and the likes but I just asked cracker what he is doing to campaign about changing the result it’s a fair question to ask it was he who said it I don’t think many leavers are going to change there minds based on the posts on here after all you will know most end up with being called traitors and racists so when you say most ppl are open minded that’s only true until they come across someone who’s mind isn’t as open as there’s how they see it that’s when the name calling starts Or am I wrong ? Dunno, I ran out of breath halfway through reading it. lol was it the part were I say about being called traitors and racists lol because you know you’ve posted that lots of times haven’t you mate lol OK For the record... Not all Leave voters were racists, but all racists were Leave voters. Not all Leave voters were xenophobic, foreigner fearing snowflakes, but all of the xenophobic, foreigner fearing snowflakes voted Leave. To willfully promote the destruction of your country is traitorous. Therefore, the promotion of a policy that will cause great harm economically and to the people of this country is traitorous by nature. If it is the case that Brexit will be severely damaging to this country and to the people who live in it, then those people who actively promote such a destructive course of action are traitors to the country and their fellow countrymen. Happy with that?" How can you say all racists voted leave? What evidence and proof have you got of that? | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... " Found this on the citizens advice website; If you're an EEA national who has come to the UK as a jobseeker, you can’t claim income-based jobseeker's allowance during your first three months in the country. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... Found this on the citizens advice website; If you're an EEA national who has come to the UK as a jobseeker, you can’t claim income-based jobseeker's allowance during your first three months in the country. " thats right.... the first 3 months regardless of where you are from you are on your own! after that within the first three years that money is then actually claimed back by the DWP from the country concerned.... it does not cost the UK taxpayer  | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy. But when they put the local tradesmen out of work, how does that help? Like I said, I don't believe it does. I believe there is enough demand for both. It's called fair competition. You see your problem, YOU don't belive it does. YOU belive it's fair competition. However, millions of people don't belive you. They believe people like you have never had your job and your home and your way of life put at risk by an immigrant worker. And they are the millions who voted leave. You saying I don't believe that's the case won't change their minds! This is why remain voters like us need to pull our high and mighty heads out of our perfumed asses and try and understand how the working man thinks. Because simply dictating how we think he should vote from the comfortable deck of our yacht, moored in Poole harbour, isn't going to win us any friends. Well that's what i believe anyway... I agree." I don’t. I think a big part of the problem is those leave voters thinking that remainers are sat comfortably on the decks of our yachts in Poole harbour. -Matt | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy. But when they put the local tradesmen out of work, how does that help? Like I said, I don't believe it does. I believe there is enough demand for both. It's called fair competition. You see your problem, YOU don't belive it does. YOU belive it's fair competition. However, millions of people don't belive you. They believe people like you have never had your job and your home and your way of life put at risk by an immigrant worker. And they are the millions who voted leave. You saying I don't believe that's the case won't change their minds! This is why remain voters like us need to pull our high and mighty heads out of our perfumed asses and try and understand how the working man thinks. Because simply dictating how we think he should vote from the comfortable deck of our yacht, moored in Poole harbour, isn't going to win us any friends. Well that's what i believe anyway... I agree. I don’t. I think a big part of the problem is those leave voters thinking that remainers are sat comfortably on the decks of our yachts in Poole harbour. -Matt" In broad terms, it's not a conflict between rich and poor, it's a conflict between old and young. Many pensioners are well off and voted leave and many young people are poor and voted remain. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy. But when they put the local tradesmen out of work, how does that help? Like I said, I don't believe it does. I believe there is enough demand for both. It's called fair competition. You see your problem, YOU don't belive it does. YOU belive it's fair competition. However, millions of people don't belive you. They believe people like you have never had your job and your home and your way of life put at risk by an immigrant worker. And they are the millions who voted leave. You saying I don't believe that's the case won't change their minds! This is why remain voters like us need to pull our high and mighty heads out of our perfumed asses and try and understand how the working man thinks. Because simply dictating how we think he should vote from the comfortable deck of our yacht, moored in Poole harbour, isn't going to win us any friends. Well that's what i believe anyway... I agree. I don’t. I think a big part of the problem is those leave voters thinking that remainers are sat comfortably on the decks of our yachts in Poole harbour. -Matt" I wasn't agreeing with the yacht bit (I wish), I was agreeing that just saying I believe it's fair competition probably isn't going to enough to persuade BREXITers that it's not the problem they think. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy. But when they put the local tradesmen out of work, how does that help? Like I said, I don't believe it does. I believe there is enough demand for both. It's called fair competition. You see your problem, YOU don't belive it does. YOU belive it's fair competition. However, millions of people don't belive you. They believe people like you have never had your job and your home and your way of life put at risk by an immigrant worker. And they are the millions who voted leave. You saying I don't believe that's the case won't change their minds! This is why remain voters like us need to pull our high and mighty heads out of our perfumed asses and try and understand how the working man thinks. Because simply dictating how we think he should vote from the comfortable deck of our yacht, moored in Poole harbour, isn't going to win us any friends. Well that's what i believe anyway... " Leavers often seem to argue that there is a fixed amount of work to be done In the economy, and that more migrants means less jobs for someone already Living in Britain. In reality, migrants not only increase the size of the economy but also the number of jobs available. As migrants are spending money in local economies, they increase consumer demand which has the knock-on effect of creating jobs. Between 2005 and 2008, generally a period of economic strength and high migration in to Britain, employment of existing British workers increased by 116,000. Even in 2008, when migration was still high, the number of UK unfilled vacancies reached 700,000 – the highest ever recorded. There is simply no evidence to suggest that increased migration leads to overall job losses. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy. But when they put the local tradesmen out of work, how does that help? Like I said, I don't believe it does. I believe there is enough demand for both. It's called fair competition. You see your problem, YOU don't belive it does. YOU belive it's fair competition. However, millions of people don't belive you. They believe people like you have never had your job and your home and your way of life put at risk by an immigrant worker. And they are the millions who voted leave. You saying I don't believe that's the case won't change their minds! This is why remain voters like us need to pull our high and mighty heads out of our perfumed asses and try and understand how the working man thinks. Because simply dictating how we think he should vote from the comfortable deck of our yacht, moored in Poole harbour, isn't going to win us any friends. Well that's what i believe anyway... Leavers often seem to argue that there is a fixed amount of work to be done In the economy, and that more migrants means less jobs for someone already Living in Britain. In reality, migrants not only increase the size of the economy but also the number of jobs available. As migrants are spending money in local economies, they increase consumer demand which has the knock-on effect of creating jobs. Between 2005 and 2008, generally a period of economic strength and high migration in to Britain, employment of existing British workers increased by 116,000. Even in 2008, when migration was still high, the number of UK unfilled vacancies reached 700,000 – the highest ever recorded. There is simply no evidence to suggest that increased migration leads to overall job losses." Your theory doesn't add up though. Immigration has fallen overall since the vote to leave in 2016 and the number of jobs has also increased since 2016 to the present day. So that proves immigration can fall while still increasing the number of jobs. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy. But when they put the local tradesmen out of work, how does that help? Like I said, I don't believe it does. I believe there is enough demand for both. It's called fair competition. You see your problem, YOU don't belive it does. YOU belive it's fair competition. However, millions of people don't belive you. They believe people like you have never had your job and your home and your way of life put at risk by an immigrant worker. And they are the millions who voted leave. You saying I don't believe that's the case won't change their minds! This is why remain voters like us need to pull our high and mighty heads out of our perfumed asses and try and understand how the working man thinks. Because simply dictating how we think he should vote from the comfortable deck of our yacht, moored in Poole harbour, isn't going to win us any friends. Well that's what i believe anyway... I agree. I don’t. I think a big part of the problem is those leave voters thinking that remainers are sat comfortably on the decks of our yachts in Poole harbour. -Matt" Maybe have a word with Bob Geldof then, who turned up on the River Thames during the referendum in 2016 in his big luxury Yacht with his remainer cohorts to yell abuse at working class fishermen who were sailing down the Thames in their little trawlers to protest at the EU's common fisheries policy. | |||
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"As far,as I'm concerned the remain camp lost when the referendum result was announced and that should have been the end of it . all the moaning and the ridiculous forecasts of doom doom and more doom is really quite infantile .instead of trying to pour more misery on the UK go and take a look at it from the EU side .basically they are shit scared we are going .it will hurt them as,well but they are so up themselves they won't admit it . yes its time to go .I welcome it 100% " You are absolutely right. Only losers in this game. The argument is about who will lose the least. | |||
"As far,as I'm concerned the remain camp lost when the referendum result was announced and that should have been the end of it . all the moaning and the ridiculous forecasts of doom doom and more doom is really quite infantile .instead of trying to pour more misery on the UK go and take a look at it from the EU side .basically they are shit scared we are going .it will hurt them as,well but they are so up themselves they won't admit it . yes its time to go .I welcome it 100% You are absolutely right. Only losers in this game. The argument is about who will lose the least." Seeing as brexiters fell for every lie told by the leave campaign they'll be much snarling and gnashing of teeth when the penny drops . | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy. But when they put the local tradesmen out of work, how does that help? Like I said, I don't believe it does. I believe there is enough demand for both. It's called fair competition. You see your problem, YOU don't belive it does. YOU belive it's fair competition. However, millions of people don't belive you. They believe people like you have never had your job and your home and your way of life put at risk by an immigrant worker. And they are the millions who voted leave. You saying I don't believe that's the case won't change their minds! This is why remain voters like us need to pull our high and mighty heads out of our perfumed asses and try and understand how the working man thinks. Because simply dictating how we think he should vote from the comfortable deck of our yacht, moored in Poole harbour, isn't going to win us any friends. Well that's what i believe anyway... I agree. I don’t. I think a big part of the problem is those leave voters thinking that remainers are sat comfortably on the decks of our yachts in Poole harbour. -Matt Maybe have a word with Bob Geldof then, who turned up on the River Thames during the referendum in 2016 in his big luxury Yacht with his remainer cohorts to yell abuse at working class fishermen who were sailing down the Thames in their little trawlers to protest at the EU's common fisheries policy. " And? Wow you really trying to make some tenuous connections here Centy. -Matt | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... Found this on the citizens advice website; If you're an EEA national who has come to the UK as a jobseeker, you can’t claim income-based jobseeker's allowance during your first three months in the country. thats right.... the first 3 months regardless of where you are from you are on your own! after that within the first three years that money is then actually claimed back by the DWP from the country concerned.... it does not cost the UK taxpayer "First off, that's not what you said...you said people from the EU cannot sign on for JSA until thet've been here for 3 years....when in fact it's 3 months. Secondly, could you provide a source as to the DWP claiming back JSA they pay out in the first 3 years, and how much in total it is. Is this also the same for other benefits do you know? I've googled and can't find anything. Thanks. | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... How does sending their disposable income abroad help the UK economy? They still pay tax and spend on essentials in the UK. This helps both the exchequer and the local economy. But when they put the local tradesmen out of work, how does that help? Like I said, I don't believe it does. I believe there is enough demand for both. It's called fair competition. You see your problem, YOU don't belive it does. YOU belive it's fair competition. However, millions of people don't belive you. They believe people like you have never had your job and your home and your way of life put at risk by an immigrant worker. And they are the millions who voted leave. You saying I don't believe that's the case won't change their minds! This is why remain voters like us need to pull our high and mighty heads out of our perfumed asses and try and understand how the working man thinks. Because simply dictating how we think he should vote from the comfortable deck of our yacht, moored in Poole harbour, isn't going to win us any friends. Well that's what i believe anyway... I agree. I don’t. I think a big part of the problem is those leave voters thinking that remainers are sat comfortably on the decks of our yachts in Poole harbour. -Matt Maybe have a word with Bob Geldof then, who turned up on the River Thames during the referendum in 2016 in his big luxury Yacht with his remainer cohorts to yell abuse at working class fishermen who were sailing down the Thames in their little trawlers to protest at the EU's common fisheries policy. And? Wow you really trying to make some tenuous connections here Centy. -Matt" It's a good example. That's exactly how working class leavers see remainers. Affluent middle class pricks, who are mainly concerned with loss of wealth, and whether or not they have to apply for a visa to go skiing. Whilst snorting down their noses at the semi educated animals not happy with their lot. | |||
"As far,as I'm concerned the remain camp lost when the referendum result was announced and that should have been the end of it . all the moaning and the ridiculous forecasts of doom doom and more doom is really quite infantile .instead of trying to pour more misery on the UK go and take a look at it from the EU side .basically they are shit scared we are going .it will hurt them as,well but they are so up themselves they won't admit it . yes its time to go .I welcome it 100% You are absolutely right. Only losers in this game. The argument is about who will lose the least. Seeing as brexiters fell for every lie told by the leave campaign they'll be much snarling and gnashing of teeth when the penny drops . "bob that’s because us leavers are all thick as shit uneducated dumbos we believed every lie told unlike the smart remainers with pockets full of degrees who believed that stand up guy Cameron lol | |||
"As far,as I'm concerned the remain camp lost when the referendum result was announced and that should have been the end of it . all the moaning and the ridiculous forecasts of doom doom and more doom is really quite infantile .instead of trying to pour more misery on the UK go and take a look at it from the EU side .basically they are shit scared we are going .it will hurt them as,well but they are so up themselves they won't admit it . yes its time to go .I welcome it 100% You are absolutely right. Only losers in this game. The argument is about who will lose the least. Seeing as brexiters fell for every lie told by the leave campaign they'll be much snarling and gnashing of teeth when the penny drops . bob that’s because us leavers are all thick as shit uneducated dumbos we believed every lie told unlike the smart remainers with pockets full of degrees who believed that stand up guy Cameron lol"If remeber rightly all leavers knew they were being lied to yet said fuck it in for a penny in for a pound . Seems legit . | |||
"Oh no I didn't, oh yes you did. As usual with you it's back to infant school again." first you make some shit up that I have never said , then you personally attack me .... how very grown up of you | |||
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" In the interests of balance, I’ve spent much time reading through a bunch of pro-Brexit Facebook pages. I understand that everyone has the same right to an opinion, even if I don’t agree with them but I honestly thought I may learn something which would give me a different point of view. This is what I found:- Apparently, I’m a remoaner I’m also a snowflake I believe in unicorns I’m stupid and uneducated I need to wake up Most posts contained one of the below phrases or subjects:- Out means out. Brexit means Brexit. Get on with it. No deal is the best possible outcome. All counter-arguments are Project Fear and therefore null and void. How bad Mrs May is. How good most other Tories are. How dangerous Labour is. Death is preferable to PM Corbyn. Lots of pro-Johnson posts. Lots of pro Trump posts. Lots of pro-Farage posts. Lots of pro-UKIP posts. Lots and lots of Mogg for PM posts including petitions (because he’s just like us). How great the empire was when we controlled most of the brown people and how better off they were for it. How evil the EU is. How the EU plots against us. A few Tommy Robinson reposts. Huge amount of anti-Muslim posts. What all posts had in common:- An almost complete lack of positive facts from people who are experts in their respective subjects and trades. Multiple reposts, links and quotes from the right-wing press, which are the only true facts. From this I've concluded that for the majority of BREXITers, this is nothing to do with BREXIT and never was. It's actually about giving a voice to that which normally mostly driven underground. Make no mistake about this, and while maybe not true for all BREXITERS, from what I've read, this is a mostly a vote about race. This is why presenting facts to most leavers makes no difference. You think you’re discussing BREXIT with them, but they’re not. This also explains perfectly why BREXITERS are not angry about being lied to and basically getting scammed. BREXIT is still giving them exactly what they wanted. I believe in a future based on cooperation and peace, with countries working together, not one based on division and an every-one-for-onesself attitude. I've always believed that we can and had moved on from those negative and counterproductive attitudes because I can't think of a single example in history where division has improved any situation anywhere. However, after spending so much time on BREXIT sites and pages I'm totally convinced that BREXIT really is simply an excuse to drive us in a direction of even further division and racial confrontation. This has maked me even more determined to fight it than ever. Thanks to intank.fi who put in to words so much better than I what my own experience has been." I agree with this. Brexiteers have an agenda that appeals to the retired wealthy pensioners whose brains are shrinking due to a combination of natural ageing and the lack of variety and stimulation in their cloistered lives. Their abilities fail and they return to the opinions of their formative years, reinforced by their diet of daily express, daily telegraph and daytime tv along with an increasing fear and detestation of working class youth and the feral behaviour they read about, and if it’s not then, it’s the poles, blacks, Irish, gypsies, french, Spaniards etc. I am perhaps being slightly satirical but there’s some truth both biologically and emotionally in what I am saying and part of me wonders if it would be a good thing to limit the right to vote to the working years so that it was seen as a benefit to be cherished and nurtured rather than a nuisance or a foregone conclusion as far as choice goes. Any thoughts or should I start a whole new thread? | |||
"There was a feeling that EU citizens could come here looking for work, sign on for job seekers allowance and send it all back home, while working cash in hand undercutting UK tradesmen, not paying income tax and sending the cash home. Will that stop after we leave? see and this is the type of stuff that frustates me... because apparently fiction is more believable than truth people from the EU cannot sign on for job seekers till they have been here for 3 yrs so thats is a fallacy.... if people are working here legally and paying taxes and sending their disposable income back to their country then so what!!!! its exactly what the irish did originally, then the original windrush generation, then the asians who came in.... Found this on the citizens advice website; If you're an EEA national who has come to the UK as a jobseeker, you can’t claim income-based jobseeker's allowance during your first three months in the country. thats right.... the first 3 months regardless of where you are from you are on your own! after that within the first three years that money is then actually claimed back by the DWP from the country concerned.... it does not cost the UK taxpayer
First off, that's not what you said...you said people from the EU cannot sign on for JSA until thet've been here for 3 years....when in fact it's 3 months.
Secondly, could you provide a source as to the DWP claiming back JSA they pay out in the first 3 years, and how much in total it is. Is this also the same for other benefits do you know? I've googled and can't find anything.
Thanks."So still no source or evidence 2 weeks later? | |||
"If every brexiter was sent a flag in the post .We wouldn't be in this mess. "Huh? I didn't even receive thru the post any leave propaganda before the vote, but the remain propaganda was huge. #proud brexiteer | |||
"Trying to get an understanding of why people voted the way they did over 2 years ago is fine for a documentary maker, student etc - but the world has moved on. I'm interested in now and how the future is better managed - especially as we are at some cliff edge points. The crisis is here because the conservative party caused it and have exacerbated it, due to gross negligence and incompetence. Fix that. I don’t think much has changed over the last two years. Most people seem to have stuck to the side they voted on. We don’t know anything now we didn’t know before the referendum. The whole thing is planning out roughly as expect, give or take some of the finer details. The Conservatives are in a lose/lose situation of their own making. " I hope so | |||
"People who voted to remain will never understand why people voted to leave. Those who voted to leave will never understand why people would want to remain. End of story. Life's too short to worry about it." It's human nature to not like change, so I was surprised we brexiteers won. My point being that many voted remain because it's their comfort zone. | |||
"People who voted to remain will never understand why people voted to leave. Those who voted to leave will never understand why people would want to remain. End of story. Life's too short to worry about it. It's human nature to not like change, so I was surprised we brexiteers won. My point being that many voted remain because it's their comfort zone. " I bet you weren't half as surprised as BoJo was. Total f'd is leadership strategy Leave actually winning. | |||
"People who voted to remain will never understand why people voted to leave. Those who voted to leave will never understand why people would want to remain. End of story. Life's too short to worry about it. It's human nature to not like change, so I was surprised we brexiteers won. My point being that many voted remain because it's their comfort zone. " Absolutely right! It all depends on your attitudes to risk. In my thirties I took a huge risk and lost everything! Had to start again from scratch - so once bitten twice shy! Never make the same mistake twice! | |||
" In the interests of balance, I’ve spent much time reading through a bunch of pro-Brexit Facebook pages. I understand that everyone has the same right to an opinion, even if I don’t agree with them but I honestly thought I may learn something which would give me a different point of view. This is what I found:- Apparently, I’m a remoaner I’m also a snowflake I believe in unicorns I’m stupid and uneducated I need to wake up Most posts contained one of the below phrases or subjects:- Out means out. Brexit means Brexit. Get on with it. No deal is the best possible outcome. All counter-arguments are Project Fear and therefore null and void. How bad Mrs May is. How good most other Tories are. How dangerous Labour is. Death is preferable to PM Corbyn. Lots of pro-Johnson posts. Lots of pro Trump posts. Lots of pro-Farage posts. Lots of pro-UKIP posts. Lots and lots of Mogg for PM posts including petitions (because he’s just like us). How great the empire was when we controlled most of the brown people and how better off they were for it. How evil the EU is. How the EU plots against us. A few Tommy Robinson reposts. Huge amount of anti-Muslim posts. What all posts had in common:- An almost complete lack of positive facts from people who are experts in their respective subjects and trades. Multiple reposts, links and quotes from the right-wing press, which are the only true facts. From this I've concluded that for the majority of BREXITers, this is nothing to do with BREXIT and never was. It's actually about giving a voice to that which normally mostly driven underground. Make no mistake about this, and while maybe not true for all BREXITERS, from what I've read, this is a mostly a vote about race. This is why presenting facts to most leavers makes no difference. You think you’re discussing BREXIT with them, but they’re not. This also explains perfectly why BREXITERS are not angry about being lied to and basically getting scammed. BREXIT is still giving them exactly what they wanted. I believe in a future based on cooperation and peace, with countries working together, not one based on division and an every-one-for-onesself attitude. I've always believed that we can and had moved on from those negative and counterproductive attitudes because I can't think of a single example in history where division has improved any situation anywhere. However, after spending so much time on BREXIT sites and pages I'm totally convinced that BREXIT really is simply an excuse to drive us in a direction of even further division and racial confrontation. This has maked me even more determined to fight it than ever. Thanks to intank.fi who put in to words so much better than I what my own experience has been. I agree with this. Brexiteers have an agenda that appeals to the retired wealthy pensioners whose brains are shrinking due to a combination of natural ageing and the lack of variety and stimulation in their cloistered lives. Their abilities fail and they return to the opinions of their formative years, reinforced by their diet of daily express, daily telegraph and daytime tv along with an increasing fear and detestation of working class youth and the feral behaviour they read about, and if it’s not then, it’s the poles, blacks, Irish, gypsies, french, Spaniards etc. I am perhaps being slightly satirical but there’s some truth both biologically and emotionally in what I am saying and part of me wonders if it would be a good thing to limit the right to vote to the working years so that it was seen as a benefit to be cherished and nurtured rather than a nuisance or a foregone conclusion as far as choice goes. Any thoughts or should I start a whole new thread?" I take my hat off to you Mr jones and Kraken for 2 excellent well thought out posts . Three thumbs for the win .Say what you see gentlemen ... | |||
" In the interests of balance, I’ve spent much time reading through a bunch of pro-Brexit Facebook pages. I understand that everyone has the same right to an opinion, even if I don’t agree with them but I honestly thought I may learn something which would give me a different point of view. This is what I found:- Apparently, I’m a remoaner I’m also a snowflake I believe in unicorns I’m stupid and uneducated I need to wake up Most posts contained one of the below phrases or subjects:- Out means out. Brexit means Brexit. Get on with it. No deal is the best possible outcome. All counter-arguments are Project Fear and therefore null and void. How bad Mrs May is. How good most other Tories are. How dangerous Labour is. Death is preferable to PM Corbyn. Lots of pro-Johnson posts. Lots of pro Trump posts. Lots of pro-Farage posts. Lots of pro-UKIP posts. Lots and lots of Mogg for PM posts including petitions (because he’s just like us). How great the empire was when we controlled most of the brown people and how better off they were for it. How evil the EU is. How the EU plots against us. A few Tommy Robinson reposts. Huge amount of anti-Muslim posts. What all posts had in common:- An almost complete lack of positive facts from people who are experts in their respective subjects and trades. Multiple reposts, links and quotes from the right-wing press, which are the only true facts. From this I've concluded that for the majority of BREXITers, this is nothing to do with BREXIT and never was. It's actually about giving a voice to that which normally mostly driven underground. Make no mistake about this, and while maybe not true for all BREXITERS, from what I've read, this is a mostly a vote about race. This is why presenting facts to most leavers makes no difference. You think you’re discussing BREXIT with them, but they’re not. This also explains perfectly why BREXITERS are not angry about being lied to and basically getting scammed. BREXIT is still giving them exactly what they wanted. I believe in a future based on cooperation and peace, with countries working together, not one based on division and an every-one-for-onesself attitude. I've always believed that we can and had moved on from those negative and counterproductive attitudes because I can't think of a single example in history where division has improved any situation anywhere. However, after spending so much time on BREXIT sites and pages I'm totally convinced that BREXIT really is simply an excuse to drive us in a direction of even further division and racial confrontation. This has maked me even more determined to fight it than ever. Thanks to intank.fi who put in to words so much better than I what my own experience has been. I agree with this. Brexiteers have an agenda that appeals to the retired wealthy pensioners whose brains are shrinking due to a combination of natural ageing and the lack of variety and stimulation in their cloistered lives. Their abilities fail and they return to the opinions of their formative years, reinforced by their diet of daily express, daily telegraph and daytime tv along with an increasing fear and detestation of working class youth and the feral behaviour they read about, and if it’s not then, it’s the poles, blacks, Irish, gypsies, french, Spaniards etc. I am perhaps being slightly satirical but there’s some truth both biologically and emotionally in what I am saying and part of me wonders if it would be a good thing to limit the right to vote to the working years so that it was seen as a benefit to be cherished and nurtured rather than a nuisance or a foregone conclusion as far as choice goes. Any thoughts or should I start a whole new thread? I take my hat off to you Mr jones and Kraken for 2 excellent well thought out posts . Three thumbs for the win .Say what you see gentlemen ..."100% agree. And in fairness some of the brexiteers on here are pretty open about it. Some say all these things then report anyone who suggests they have this kind of agenda. | |||
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" In the interests of balance, I’ve spent much time reading through a bunch of pro-Brexit Facebook pages. I understand that everyone has the same right to an opinion, even if I don’t agree with them but I honestly thought I may learn something which would give me a different point of view. This is what I found:- Apparently, I’m a remoaner I’m also a snowflake I believe in unicorns I’m stupid and uneducated I need to wake up Most posts contained one of the below phrases or subjects:- Out means out. Brexit means Brexit. Get on with it. No deal is the best possible outcome. All counter-arguments are Project Fear and therefore null and void. How bad Mrs May is. How good most other Tories are. How dangerous Labour is. Death is preferable to PM Corbyn. Lots of pro-Johnson posts. Lots of pro Trump posts. Lots of pro-Farage posts. Lots of pro-UKIP posts. Lots and lots of Mogg for PM posts including petitions (because he’s just like us). How great the empire was when we controlled most of the brown people and how better off they were for it. How evil the EU is. How the EU plots against us. A few Tommy Robinson reposts. Huge amount of anti-Muslim posts. What all posts had in common:- An almost complete lack of positive facts from people who are experts in their respective subjects and trades. Multiple reposts, links and quotes from the right-wing press, which are the only true facts. From this I've concluded that for the majority of BREXITers, this is nothing to do with BREXIT and never was. It's actually about giving a voice to that which normally mostly driven underground. Make no mistake about this, and while maybe not true for all BREXITERS, from what I've read, this is a mostly a vote about race. This is why presenting facts to most leavers makes no difference. You think you’re discussing BREXIT with them, but they’re not. This also explains perfectly why BREXITERS are not angry about being lied to and basically getting scammed. BREXIT is still giving them exactly what they wanted. I believe in a future based on cooperation and peace, with countries working together, not one based on division and an every-one-for-onesself attitude. I've always believed that we can and had moved on from those negative and counterproductive attitudes because I can't think of a single example in history where division has improved any situation anywhere. However, after spending so much time on BREXIT sites and pages I'm totally convinced that BREXIT really is simply an excuse to drive us in a direction of even further division and racial confrontation. This has maked me even more determined to fight it than ever. Thanks to intank.fi who put in to words so much better than I what my own experience has been. I agree with this. Brexiteers have an agenda that appeals to the retired wealthy pensioners whose brains are shrinking due to a combination of natural ageing and the lack of variety and stimulation in their cloistered lives. Their abilities fail and they return to the opinions of their formative years, reinforced by their diet of daily express, daily telegraph and daytime tv along with an increasing fear and detestation of working class youth and the feral behaviour they read about, and if it’s not then, it’s the poles, blacks, Irish, gypsies, french, Spaniards etc. I am perhaps being slightly satirical but there’s some truth both biologically and emotionally in what I am saying and part of me wonders if it would be a good thing to limit the right to vote to the working years so that it was seen as a benefit to be cherished and nurtured rather than a nuisance or a foregone conclusion as far as choice goes. Any thoughts or should I start a whole new thread? I take my hat off to you Mr jones and Kraken for 2 excellent well thought out posts . Three thumbs for the win .Say what you see gentlemen ...
100% agree. And in fairness some of the brexiteers on here are pretty open about it. Some say all these things then report anyone who suggests they have this kind of agenda."Report to whom? If you're civil in your ramblings (either camp), refrain from personal attacks, and stick to the site rules, the mods will allow free speech. | |||
" In the interests of balance, I’ve spent much time reading through a bunch of pro-Brexit Facebook pages. I understand that everyone has the same right to an opinion, even if I don’t agree with them but I honestly thought I may learn something which would give me a different point of view. This is what I found:- Apparently, I’m a remoaner I’m also a snowflake I believe in unicorns I’m stupid and uneducated I need to wake up Most posts contained one of the below phrases or subjects:- Out means out. Brexit means Brexit. Get on with it. No deal is the best possible outcome. All counter-arguments are Project Fear and therefore null and void. How bad Mrs May is. How good most other Tories are. How dangerous Labour is. Death is preferable to PM Corbyn. Lots of pro-Johnson posts. Lots of pro Trump posts. Lots of pro-Farage posts. Lots of pro-UKIP posts. Lots and lots of Mogg for PM posts including petitions (because he’s just like us). How great the empire was when we controlled most of the brown people and how better off they were for it. How evil the EU is. How the EU plots against us. A few Tommy Robinson reposts. Huge amount of anti-Muslim posts. What all posts had in common:- An almost complete lack of positive facts from people who are experts in their respective subjects and trades. Multiple reposts, links and quotes from the right-wing press, which are the only true facts. From this I've concluded that for the majority of BREXITers, this is nothing to do with BREXIT and never was. It's actually about giving a voice to that which normally mostly driven underground. Make no mistake about this, and while maybe not true for all BREXITERS, from what I've read, this is a mostly a vote about race. This is why presenting facts to most leavers makes no difference. You think you’re discussing BREXIT with them, but they’re not. This also explains perfectly why BREXITERS are not angry about being lied to and basically getting scammed. BREXIT is still giving them exactly what they wanted. I believe in a future based on cooperation and peace, with countries working together, not one based on division and an every-one-for-onesself attitude. I've always believed that we can and had moved on from those negative and counterproductive attitudes because I can't think of a single example in history where division has improved any situation anywhere. However, after spending so much time on BREXIT sites and pages I'm totally convinced that BREXIT really is simply an excuse to drive us in a direction of even further division and racial confrontation. This has maked me even more determined to fight it than ever. Thanks to intank.fi who put in to words so much better than I what my own experience has been. I agree with this. Brexiteers have an agenda that appeals to the retired wealthy pensioners whose brains are shrinking due to a combination of natural ageing and the lack of variety and stimulation in their cloistered lives. Their abilities fail and they return to the opinions of their formative years, reinforced by their diet of daily express, daily telegraph and daytime tv along with an increasing fear and detestation of working class youth and the feral behaviour they read about, and if it’s not then, it’s the poles, blacks, Irish, gypsies, french, Spaniards etc. I am perhaps being slightly satirical but there’s some truth both biologically and emotionally in what I am saying and part of me wonders if it would be a good thing to limit the right to vote to the working years so that it was seen as a benefit to be cherished and nurtured rather than a nuisance or a foregone conclusion as far as choice goes. Any thoughts or should I start a whole new thread? I take my hat off to you Mr jones and Kraken for 2 excellent well thought out posts . Three thumbs for the win .Say what you see gentlemen ...
100% agree. And in fairness some of the brexiteers on here are pretty open about it. Some say all these things then report anyone who suggests they have this kind of agenda.
Report to whom? If you're civil in your ramblings (either camp), refrain from personal attacks, and stick to the site rules, the mods will allow free speech.
"I would answer you via PM. | |||
"One thing I'd like to add is that the sovereignty of parliament looks likely to override the vote anyway which is a bit ironic. So it could all be an irrelevance anyway. The vote was too close to call and there should have been a requirement to hit 55% for it to have been mandatory. DC must have sat there in his chair so smuggly assuming that the vote would go his way that the possibility of defeat was not thought remotely possible. I'm afraid the game is nearly up as we all really know in our heart of hearts and that at the very least we'll have a general election or another referendum which will probably be as equally split or maybe not. Whatever happens we'll be a lot worse off as a condition of cancelling BREXIT which will be an enormous pound of flesh in the form of the loss of the rebate. I can just see it happening now. Macron will be loving it and waiting for his chance to rub our noses in it. It'll be just like the Monty Python Sketch where the French shout down at the brave English Knights." And if we didn't laugh at the incompetence of negotiations, we'd all be crying into our cornflakes. I'm beginning to wonder if the whole affair isn't a stool pigeon for something much more sinister. | |||
" In the interests of balance, I’ve spent much time reading through a bunch of pro-Brexit Facebook pages. I understand that everyone has the same right to an opinion, even if I don’t agree with them but I honestly thought I may learn something which would give me a different point of view. This is what I found:- Apparently, I’m a remoaner I’m also a snowflake I believe in unicorns I’m stupid and uneducated I need to wake up Most posts contained one of the below phrases or subjects:- Out means out. Brexit means Brexit. Get on with it. No deal is the best possible outcome. All counter-arguments are Project Fear and therefore null and void. How bad Mrs May is. How good most other Tories are. How dangerous Labour is. Death is preferable to PM Corbyn. Lots of pro-Johnson posts. Lots of pro Trump posts. Lots of pro-Farage posts. Lots of pro-UKIP posts. Lots and lots of Mogg for PM posts including petitions (because he’s just like us). How great the empire was when we controlled most of the brown people and how better off they were for it. How evil the EU is. How the EU plots against us. A few Tommy Robinson reposts. Huge amount of anti-Muslim posts. What all posts had in common:- An almost complete lack of positive facts from people who are experts in their respective subjects and trades. Multiple reposts, links and quotes from the right-wing press, which are the only true facts. From this I've concluded that for the majority of BREXITers, this is nothing to do with BREXIT and never was. It's actually about giving a voice to that which normally mostly driven underground. Make no mistake about this, and while maybe not true for all BREXITERS, from what I've read, this is a mostly a vote about race. This is why presenting facts to most leavers makes no difference. You think you’re discussing BREXIT with them, but they’re not. This also explains perfectly why BREXITERS are not angry about being lied to and basically getting scammed. BREXIT is still giving them exactly what they wanted. I believe in a future based on cooperation and peace, with countries working together, not one based on division and an every-one-for-onesself attitude. I've always believed that we can and had moved on from those negative and counterproductive attitudes because I can't think of a single example in history where division has improved any situation anywhere. However, after spending so much time on BREXIT sites and pages I'm totally convinced that BREXIT really is simply an excuse to drive us in a direction of even further division and racial confrontation. This has maked me even more determined to fight it than ever. Thanks to intank.fi who put in to words so much better than I what my own experience has been. I agree with this. Brexiteers have an agenda that appeals to the retired wealthy pensioners whose brains are shrinking due to a combination of natural ageing and the lack of variety and stimulation in their cloistered lives. Their abilities fail and they return to the opinions of their formative years, reinforced by their diet of daily express, daily telegraph and daytime tv along with an increasing fear and detestation of working class youth and the feral behaviour they read about, and if it’s not then, it’s the poles, blacks, Irish, gypsies, french, Spaniards etc. I am perhaps being slightly satirical but there’s some truth both biologically and emotionally in what I am saying and part of me wonders if it would be a good thing to limit the right to vote to the working years so that it was seen as a benefit to be cherished and nurtured rather than a nuisance or a foregone conclusion as far as choice goes. Any thoughts or should I start a whole new thread? I take my hat off to you Mr jones and Kraken for 2 excellent well thought out posts . Three thumbs for the win .Say what you see gentlemen ...
100% agree. And in fairness some of the brexiteers on here are pretty open about it. Some say all these things then report anyone who suggests they have this kind of agenda.
Report to whom? If you're civil in your ramblings (either camp), refrain from personal attacks, and stick to the site rules, the mods will allow free speech.
I would answer you via PM. "You are obviously fearful of someone or thing so go ahead. | |||
" In the interests of balance, I’ve spent much time reading through a bunch of pro-Brexit Facebook pages. I understand that everyone has the same right to an opinion, even if I don’t agree with them but I honestly thought I may learn something which would give me a different point of view. This is what I found:- Apparently, I’m a remoaner I’m also a snowflake I believe in unicorns I’m stupid and uneducated I need to wake up Most posts contained one of the below phrases or subjects:- Out means out. Brexit means Brexit. Get on with it. No deal is the best possible outcome. All counter-arguments are Project Fear and therefore null and void. How bad Mrs May is. How good most other Tories are. How dangerous Labour is. Death is preferable to PM Corbyn. Lots of pro-Johnson posts. Lots of pro Trump posts. Lots of pro-Farage posts. Lots of pro-UKIP posts. Lots and lots of Mogg for PM posts including petitions (because he’s just like us). How great the empire was when we controlled most of the brown people and how better off they were for it. How evil the EU is. How the EU plots against us. A few Tommy Robinson reposts. Huge amount of anti-Muslim posts. What all posts had in common:- An almost complete lack of positive facts from people who are experts in their respective subjects and trades. Multiple reposts, links and quotes from the right-wing press, which are the only true facts. From this I've concluded that for the majority of BREXITers, this is nothing to do with BREXIT and never was. It's actually about giving a voice to that which normally mostly driven underground. Make no mistake about this, and while maybe not true for all BREXITERS, from what I've read, this is a mostly a vote about race. This is why presenting facts to most leavers makes no difference. You think you’re discussing BREXIT with them, but they’re not. This also explains perfectly why BREXITERS are not angry about being lied to and basically getting scammed. BREXIT is still giving them exactly what they wanted. I believe in a future based on cooperation and peace, with countries working together, not one based on division and an every-one-for-onesself attitude. I've always believed that we can and had moved on from those negative and counterproductive attitudes because I can't think of a single example in history where division has improved any situation anywhere. However, after spending so much time on BREXIT sites and pages I'm totally convinced that BREXIT really is simply an excuse to drive us in a direction of even further division and racial confrontation. This has maked me even more determined to fight it than ever. Thanks to intank.fi who put in to words so much better than I what my own experience has been. I agree with this. Brexiteers have an agenda that appeals to the retired wealthy pensioners whose brains are shrinking due to a combination of natural ageing and the lack of variety and stimulation in their cloistered lives. Their abilities fail and they return to the opinions of their formative years, reinforced by their diet of daily express, daily telegraph and daytime tv along with an increasing fear and detestation of working class youth and the feral behaviour they read about, and if it’s not then, it’s the poles, blacks, Irish, gypsies, french, Spaniards etc. I am perhaps being slightly satirical but there’s some truth both biologically and emotionally in what I am saying and part of me wonders if it would be a good thing to limit the right to vote to the working years so that it was seen as a benefit to be cherished and nurtured rather than a nuisance or a foregone conclusion as far as choice goes. Any thoughts or should I start a whole new thread? I take my hat off to you Mr jones and Kraken for 2 excellent well thought out posts . Three thumbs for the win .Say what you see gentlemen ...
100% agree. And in fairness some of the brexiteers on here are pretty open about it. Some say all these things then report anyone who suggests they have this kind of agenda."Dude just walk the line .You know how the game is played.I remember him and how it went down.  | |||
" In the interests of balance, I’ve spent much time reading through a bunch of pro-Brexit Facebook pages. I understand that everyone has the same right to an opinion, even if I don’t agree with them but I honestly thought I may learn something which would give me a different point of view. This is what I found:- Apparently, I’m a remoaner I’m also a snowflake I believe in unicorns I’m stupid and uneducated I need to wake up Most posts contained one of the below phrases or subjects:- Out means out. Brexit means Brexit. Get on with it. No deal is the best possible outcome. All counter-arguments are Project Fear and therefore null and void. How bad Mrs May is. How good most other Tories are. How dangerous Labour is. Death is preferable to PM Corbyn. Lots of pro-Johnson posts. Lots of pro Trump posts. Lots of pro-Farage posts. Lots of pro-UKIP posts. Lots and lots of Mogg for PM posts including petitions (because he’s just like us). How great the empire was when we controlled most of the brown people and how better off they were for it. How evil the EU is. How the EU plots against us. A few Tommy Robinson reposts. Huge amount of anti-Muslim posts. What all posts had in common:- An almost complete lack of positive facts from people who are experts in their respective subjects and trades. Multiple reposts, links and quotes from the right-wing press, which are the only true facts. From this I've concluded that for the majority of BREXITers, this is nothing to do with BREXIT and never was. It's actually about giving a voice to that which normally mostly driven underground. Make no mistake about this, and while maybe not true for all BREXITERS, from what I've read, this is a mostly a vote about race. This is why presenting facts to most leavers makes no difference. You think you’re discussing BREXIT with them, but they’re not. This also explains perfectly why BREXITERS are not angry about being lied to and basically getting scammed. BREXIT is still giving them exactly what they wanted. I believe in a future based on cooperation and peace, with countries working together, not one based on division and an every-one-for-onesself attitude. I've always believed that we can and had moved on from those negative and counterproductive attitudes because I can't think of a single example in history where division has improved any situation anywhere. However, after spending so much time on BREXIT sites and pages I'm totally convinced that BREXIT really is simply an excuse to drive us in a direction of even further division and racial confrontation. This has maked me even more determined to fight it than ever. Thanks to intank.fi who put in to words so much better than I what my own experience has been. I agree with this. Brexiteers have an agenda that appeals to the retired wealthy pensioners whose brains are shrinking due to a combination of natural ageing and the lack of variety and stimulation in their cloistered lives. Their abilities fail and they return to the opinions of their formative years, reinforced by their diet of daily express, daily telegraph and daytime tv along with an increasing fear and detestation of working class youth and the feral behaviour they read about, and if it’s not then, it’s the poles, blacks, Irish, gypsies, french, Spaniards etc. I am perhaps being slightly satirical but there’s some truth both biologically and emotionally in what I am saying and part of me wonders if it would be a good thing to limit the right to vote to the working years so that it was seen as a benefit to be cherished and nurtured rather than a nuisance or a foregone conclusion as far as choice goes. Any thoughts or should I start a whole new thread? I take my hat off to you Mr jones and Kraken for 2 excellent well thought out posts . Three thumbs for the win .Say what you see gentlemen ...
100% agree. And in fairness some of the brexiteers on here are pretty open about it. Some say all these things then report anyone who suggests they have this kind of agenda."Tbf Facebook groups are an echo chamber which attract people who don’t want to discuss views. I find non politco forums provide the best place to get different views. While I don’t agree with some (or at least the weight they put on some arguments) it does help see a different side. I won’t lie. There are still sound bites with not substance. But generally it’s drwoned out a bit more. | |||
Leaving the EU will be a pain in the arse for travelling in Europe, but not insurmountable. I do a lot of travelling in Europe and it will mean more sitting behind a laptop getting the right forms, but it's not a form of human bondage.
Immigration does not really affect us here in Cornwall, but again, the NHS cannot function without it, so it will look after itself, as big business does. There are one or two cases going through at the moment where surgeons and nurses are facing deportation, but this will be fixed, there is nothing more election losing than a body count.
So, for me, Brexit is not about leaving Europe, it is about giving people a voice to be pissed off with the gap between rich and poor, left and right, white and non-white. These are all real things going on for real people. How often do people get heard, people living hard, hand to mouth lives who they see threatened by unmanaged inequalities and unfairness, unless you are near the centre of government, London.
We are reaping the reward of a lack of democracy over the past decades and possibly longer. We have let issues like immigration, trade and law be dealt with by people who do not check in with us to see if they are going in the right direction.
For the record, I am not pro-Brexit. It breaks my heart that we are separating from a wider Europe, a Europe that goes to war with itself too regularly for comfort, let's not forget former Yugoslavia. The more our fortunes are bound together, the less we will attack each other, but I am sure it doesn't always work that way. I wish we had stayed in, negotiated longer, worked out a way to contribute to the leadership of Europe to avoid the mess it finds itself in, particularly in Hungary, France and Italy. Division is never a good idea for the human race, it dehumanises us. There are plenty of fun psychology experiments that show the harm that can be committed when we see the other as different.
So, that is my bleeding heart, left wing, liberal snowflake viewpoint. Lots of good people calling each other shits without walking a mile in their shoes, while the real elite get on earning their billions like nothing happened, please with the division and chaos that is fomenting beneath them.
TL;DR. I am sad about it. | |||
"Hello, this is my first post on Brexit anywhere on the internet, I have not felt that I knew enough to comment on it up until now. Even now, this is just my conjecture, I am not part of the EU or parliamentary world, or even the business world, where people may have much more informed opinions. It strikes me that leaving the EU is, from a general population standpoint, just a detail. For some individuals, it may have brilliant or tragic consequences to their livelihoods or fortunes, but overall, it will not move the UK a millimetre further from mainland Europe, we are still part of Europe, but just not part of the EU rules and regulations. Business, especially big business, does not have a great track record of following regulations or national dictats, so I imagine it will carry on as normal, they will always find a loophole to ensure their shareholders are fed. I cannot see that many would relocate without much plotting about avoiding that, the costs would be huge. From a funding point of view, we were net contributors to the EU, so we should save some money. I am in Cornwall, we were massive beneficiaries from EU funding, we still are. This will be a huge blow to us. But the sums are not that significant in public funding terms. I think it was £14 billion per annum. That is not a huge amount in the bigger picture. I have a concern that, once out, the UK will not spend any money at all on supporting those industries and communities where EU has been so essential in preventing increasing poverty or stagnation. From a sovereignty point of view, I have never felt ruled by Europe. Perhaps I am naive, but, with a few exceptions, we write our own laws. The ones we have had to adopt as part of the EU, such as competition rules, data management, human rights, have not been horrible impositions, but rather helpful additions to our statutes that parliament was happy to approve without argument. And the Queen is still in charge, isn't she?
Leaving the EU will be a pain in the arse for travelling in Europe, but not insurmountable. I do a lot of travelling in Europe and it will mean more sitting behind a laptop getting the right forms, but it's not a form of human bondage.
Immigration does not really affect us here in Cornwall, but again, the NHS cannot function without it, so it will look after itself, as big business does. There are one or two cases going through at the moment where surgeons and nurses are facing deportation, but this will be fixed, there is nothing more election losing than a body count.
So, for me, Brexit is not about leaving Europe, it is about giving people a voice to be pissed off with the gap between rich and poor, left and right, white and non-white. These are all real things going on for real people. How often do people get heard, people living hard, hand to mouth lives who they see threatened by unmanaged inequalities and unfairness, unless you are near the centre of government, London.
We are reaping the reward of a lack of democracy over the past decades and possibly longer. We have let issues like immigration, trade and law be dealt with by people who do not check in with us to see if they are going in the right direction.
For the record, I am not pro-Brexit. It breaks my heart that we are separating from a wider Europe, a Europe that goes to war with itself too regularly for comfort, let's not forget former Yugoslavia. The more our fortunes are bound together, the less we will attack each other, but I am sure it doesn't always work that way. I wish we had stayed in, negotiated longer, worked out a way to contribute to the leadership of Europe to avoid the mess it finds itself in, particularly in Hungary, France and Italy. Division is never a good idea for the human race, it dehumanises us. There are plenty of fun psychology experiments that show the harm that can be committed when we see the other as different.
So, that is my bleeding heart, left wing, liberal snowflake viewpoint. Lots of good people calling each other shits without walking a mile in their shoes, while the real elite get on earning their billions like nothing happened, please with the division and chaos that is fomenting beneath them.
TL;DR. I am sad about it. "Well composed. | |||
"Hello, this is my first post on Brexit anywhere on the internet, I have not felt that I knew enough to comment on it up until now. Even now, this is just my conjecture, I am not part of the EU or parliamentary world, or even the business world, where people may have much more informed opinions. It strikes me that leaving the EU is, from a general population standpoint, just a detail. For some individuals, it may have brilliant or tragic consequences to their livelihoods or fortunes, but overall, it will not move the UK a millimetre further from mainland Europe, we are still part of Europe, but just not part of the EU rules and regulations. Business, especially big business, does not have a great track record of following regulations or national dictats, so I imagine it will carry on as normal, they will always find a loophole to ensure their shareholders are fed. I cannot see that many would relocate without much plotting about avoiding that, the costs would be huge. From a funding point of view, we were net contributors to the EU, so we should save some money. I am in Cornwall, we were massive beneficiaries from EU funding, we still are. This will be a huge blow to us. But the sums are not that significant in public funding terms. I think it was £14 billion per annum. That is not a huge amount in the bigger picture. I have a concern that, once out, the UK will not spend any money at all on supporting those industries and communities where EU has been so essential in preventing increasing poverty or stagnation. From a sovereignty point of view, I have never felt ruled by Europe. Perhaps I am naive, but, with a few exceptions, we write our own laws. The ones we have had to adopt as part of the EU, such as competition rules, data management, human rights, have not been horrible impositions, but rather helpful additions to our statutes that parliament was happy to approve without argument. And the Queen is still in charge, isn't she?
Leaving the EU will be a pain in the arse for travelling in Europe, but not insurmountable. I do a lot of travelling in Europe and it will mean more sitting behind a laptop getting the right forms, but it's not a form of human bondage.
Immigration does not really affect us here in Cornwall, but again, the NHS cannot function without it, so it will look after itself, as big business does. There are one or two cases going through at the moment where surgeons and nurses are facing deportation, but this will be fixed, there is nothing more election losing than a body count.
So, for me, Brexit is not about leaving Europe, it is about giving people a voice to be pissed off with the gap between rich and poor, left and right, white and non-white. These are all real things going on for real people. How often do people get heard, people living hard, hand to mouth lives who they see threatened by unmanaged inequalities and unfairness, unless you are near the centre of government, London.
We are reaping the reward of a lack of democracy over the past decades and possibly longer. We have let issues like immigration, trade and law be dealt with by people who do not check in with us to see if they are going in the right direction.
For the record, I am not pro-Brexit. It breaks my heart that we are separating from a wider Europe, a Europe that goes to war with itself too regularly for comfort, let's not forget former Yugoslavia. The more our fortunes are bound together, the less we will attack each other, but I am sure it doesn't always work that way. I wish we had stayed in, negotiated longer, worked out a way to contribute to the leadership of Europe to avoid the mess it finds itself in, particularly in Hungary, France and Italy. Division is never a good idea for the human race, it dehumanises us. There are plenty of fun psychology experiments that show the harm that can be committed when we see the other as different.
So, that is my bleeding heart, left wing, liberal snowflake viewpoint. Lots of good people calling each other shits without walking a mile in their shoes, while the real elite get on earning their billions like nothing happened, please with the division and chaos that is fomenting beneath them.
TL;DR. I am sad about it.
Well composed."Thank you, it's difficult to get everything down, isn't it? But that was my start. | |||
"Hello, this is my first post on Brexit anywhere on the internet, I have not felt that I knew enough to comment on it up until now. Even now, this is just my conjecture, I am not part of the EU or parliamentary world, or even the business world, where people may have much more informed opinions. It strikes me that leaving the EU is, from a general population standpoint, just a detail. For some individuals, it may have brilliant or tragic consequences to their livelihoods or fortunes, but overall, it will not move the UK a millimetre further from mainland Europe, we are still part of Europe, but just not part of the EU rules and regulations. Business, especially big business, does not have a great track record of following regulations or national dictats, so I imagine it will carry on as normal, they will always find a loophole to ensure their shareholders are fed. I cannot see that many would relocate without much plotting about avoiding that, the costs would be huge. From a funding point of view, we were net contributors to the EU, so we should save some money. I am in Cornwall, we were massive beneficiaries from EU funding, we still are. This will be a huge blow to us. But the sums are not that significant in public funding terms. I think it was £14 billion per annum. That is not a huge amount in the bigger picture. I have a concern that, once out, the UK will not spend any money at all on supporting those industries and communities where EU has been so essential in preventing increasing poverty or stagnation. From a sovereignty point of view, I have never felt ruled by Europe. Perhaps I am naive, but, with a few exceptions, we write our own laws. The ones we have had to adopt as part of the EU, such as competition rules, data management, human rights, have not been horrible impositions, but rather helpful additions to our statutes that parliament was happy to approve without argument. And the Queen is still in charge, isn't she?
Leaving the EU will be a pain in the arse for travelling in Europe, but not insurmountable. I do a lot of travelling in Europe and it will mean more sitting behind a laptop getting the right forms, but it's not a form of human bondage.
Immigration does not really affect us here in Cornwall, but again, the NHS cannot function without it, so it will look after itself, as big business does. There are one or two cases going through at the moment where surgeons and nurses are facing deportation, but this will be fixed, there is nothing more election losing than a body count.
So, for me, Brexit is not about leaving Europe, it is about giving people a voice to be pissed off with the gap between rich and poor, left and right, white and non-white. These are all real things going on for real people. How often do people get heard, people living hard, hand to mouth lives who they see threatened by unmanaged inequalities and unfairness, unless you are near the centre of government, London.
We are reaping the reward of a lack of democracy over the past decades and possibly longer. We have let issues like immigration, trade and law be dealt with by people who do not check in with us to see if they are going in the right direction.
For the record, I am not pro-Brexit. It breaks my heart that we are separating from a wider Europe, a Europe that goes to war with itself too regularly for comfort, let's not forget former Yugoslavia. The more our fortunes are bound together, the less we will attack each other, but I am sure it doesn't always work that way. I wish we had stayed in, negotiated longer, worked out a way to contribute to the leadership of Europe to avoid the mess it finds itself in, particularly in Hungary, France and Italy. Division is never a good idea for the human race, it dehumanises us. There are plenty of fun psychology experiments that show the harm that can be committed when we see the other as different.
So, that is my bleeding heart, left wing, liberal snowflake viewpoint. Lots of good people calling each other shits without walking a mile in their shoes, while the real elite get on earning their billions like nothing happened, please with the division and chaos that is fomenting beneath them.
TL;DR. I am sad about it. "Thank you for taking the time to express so eloquently your feelings about brexit which I agree with fully. The truth of all of this is that it was a protest about the remoteness of power and the huge inequality that the rest of The UK has in comparison to the obscene wealth of London and the south east. This was harnessed by the gilded elite ex bankers like Farage or BoJo to peddle an anti EU agenda for their own personal reasons (follow the money/power trail) cloaked in a spurious sovereignty and anti immigrant flag. I’m so glad you mentioned how much poorer regions like Cornwall and Wales have benefited from EU investment as I have huge doubts that any government that is in power after we leave will make the kind of regional investments that the eu has. You have to wonder why the public has listened to politicians who have effectively sold off most of the country’s infrastructure to foreign companies (railways, power generation, etc) and have no real plan for post brexit other than suck it and see. It’s a shame. Oh and well done for braving the fire of the forums. | |||
"Hello, this is my first post on Brexit anywhere on the internet, I have not felt that I knew enough to comment on it up until now. Even now, this is just my conjecture, I am not part of the EU or parliamentary world, or even the business world, where people may have much more informed opinions. It strikes me that leaving the EU is, from a general population standpoint, just a detail. For some individuals, it may have brilliant or tragic consequences to their livelihoods or fortunes, but overall, it will not move the UK a millimetre further from mainland Europe, we are still part of Europe, but just not part of the EU rules and regulations. Business, especially big business, does not have a great track record of following regulations or national dictats, so I imagine it will carry on as normal, they will always find a loophole to ensure their shareholders are fed. I cannot see that many would relocate without much plotting about avoiding that, the costs would be huge. From a funding point of view, we were net contributors to the EU, so we should save some money. I am in Cornwall, we were massive beneficiaries from EU funding, we still are. This will be a huge blow to us. But the sums are not that significant in public funding terms. I think it was £14 billion per annum. That is not a huge amount in the bigger picture. I have a concern that, once out, the UK will not spend any money at all on supporting those industries and communities where EU has been so essential in preventing increasing poverty or stagnation. From a sovereignty point of view, I have never felt ruled by Europe. Perhaps I am naive, but, with a few exceptions, we write our own laws. The ones we have had to adopt as part of the EU, such as competition rules, data management, human rights, have not been horrible impositions, but rather helpful additions to our statutes that parliament was happy to approve without argument. And the Queen is still in charge, isn't she?
Leaving the EU will be a pain in the arse for travelling in Europe, but not insurmountable. I do a lot of travelling in Europe and it will mean more sitting behind a laptop getting the right forms, but it's not a form of human bondage.
Immigration does not really affect us here in Cornwall, but again, the NHS cannot function without it, so it will look after itself, as big business does. There are one or two cases going through at the moment where surgeons and nurses are facing deportation, but this will be fixed, there is nothing more election losing than a body count.
So, for me, Brexit is not about leaving Europe, it is about giving people a voice to be pissed off with the gap between rich and poor, left and right, white and non-white. These are all real things going on for real people. How often do people get heard, people living hard, hand to mouth lives who they see threatened by unmanaged inequalities and unfairness, unless you are near the centre of government, London.
We are reaping the reward of a lack of democracy over the past decades and possibly longer. We have let issues like immigration, trade and law be dealt with by people who do not check in with us to see if they are going in the right direction.
For the record, I am not pro-Brexit. It breaks my heart that we are separating from a wider Europe, a Europe that goes to war with itself too regularly for comfort, let's not forget former Yugoslavia. The more our fortunes are bound together, the less we will attack each other, but I am sure it doesn't always work that way. I wish we had stayed in, negotiated longer, worked out a way to contribute to the leadership of Europe to avoid the mess it finds itself in, particularly in Hungary, France and Italy. Division is never a good idea for the human race, it dehumanises us. There are plenty of fun psychology experiments that show the harm that can be committed when we see the other as different.
So, that is my bleeding heart, left wing, liberal snowflake viewpoint. Lots of good people calling each other shits without walking a mile in their shoes, while the real elite get on earning their billions like nothing happened, please with the division and chaos that is fomenting beneath them.
TL;DR. I am sad about it.
Thank you for taking the time to express so eloquently your feelings about brexit which I agree with fully. The truth of all of this is that it was a protest about the remoteness of power and the huge inequality that the rest of The UK has in comparison to the obscene wealth of London and the south east. This was harnessed by the gilded elite ex bankers like Farage or BoJo to peddle an anti EU agenda for their own personal reasons (follow the money/power trail) cloaked in a spurious sovereignty and anti immigrant flag. I’m so glad you mentioned how much poorer regions like Cornwall and Wales have benefited from EU investment as I have huge doubts that any government that is in power after we leave will make the kind of regional investments that the eu has. You have to wonder why the public has listened to politicians who have effectively sold off most of the country’s infrastructure to foreign companies (railways, power generation, etc) and have no real plan for post brexit other than suck it and see. It’s a shame. Oh and well done for braving the fire of the forums." | |||
"Hello, this is my first post on Brexit anywhere on the internet, I have not felt that I knew enough to comment on it up until now. Even now, this is just my conjecture, I am not part of the EU or parliamentary world, or even the business world, where people may have much more informed opinions. It strikes me that leaving the EU is, from a general population standpoint, just a detail. For some individuals, it may have brilliant or tragic consequences to their livelihoods or fortunes, but overall, it will not move the UK a millimetre further from mainland Europe, we are still part of Europe, but just not part of the EU rules and regulations. Business, especially big business, does not have a great track record of following regulations or national dictats, so I imagine it will carry on as normal, they will always find a loophole to ensure their shareholders are fed. I cannot see that many would relocate without much plotting about avoiding that, the costs would be huge. From a funding point of view, we were net contributors to the EU, so we should save some money. I am in Cornwall, we were massive beneficiaries from EU funding, we still are. This will be a huge blow to us. But the sums are not that significant in public funding terms. I think it was £14 billion per annum. That is not a huge amount in the bigger picture. I have a concern that, once out, the UK will not spend any money at all on supporting those industries and communities where EU has been so essential in preventing increasing poverty or stagnation. From a sovereignty point of view, I have never felt ruled by Europe. Perhaps I am naive, but, with a few exceptions, we write our own laws. The ones we have had to adopt as part of the EU, such as competition rules, data management, human rights, have not been horrible impositions, but rather helpful additions to our statutes that parliament was happy to approve without argument. And the Queen is still in charge, isn't she?
Leaving the EU will be a pain in the arse for travelling in Europe, but not insurmountable. I do a lot of travelling in Europe and it will mean more sitting behind a laptop getting the right forms, but it's not a form of human bondage.
Immigration does not really affect us here in Cornwall, but again, the NHS cannot function without it, so it will look after itself, as big business does. There are one or two cases going through at the moment where surgeons and nurses are facing deportation, but this will be fixed, there is nothing more election losing than a body count.
So, for me, Brexit is not about leaving Europe, it is about giving people a voice to be pissed off with the gap between rich and poor, left and right, white and non-white. These are all real things going on for real people. How often do people get heard, people living hard, hand to mouth lives who they see threatened by unmanaged inequalities and unfairness, unless you are near the centre of government, London.
We are reaping the reward of a lack of democracy over the past decades and possibly longer. We have let issues like immigration, trade and law be dealt with by people who do not check in with us to see if they are going in the right direction.
For the record, I am not pro-Brexit. It breaks my heart that we are separating from a wider Europe, a Europe that goes to war with itself too regularly for comfort, let's not forget former Yugoslavia. The more our fortunes are bound together, the less we will attack each other, but I am sure it doesn't always work that way. I wish we had stayed in, negotiated longer, worked out a way to contribute to the leadership of Europe to avoid the mess it finds itself in, particularly in Hungary, France and Italy. Division is never a good idea for the human race, it dehumanises us. There are plenty of fun psychology experiments that show the harm that can be committed when we see the other as different.
So, that is my bleeding heart, left wing, liberal snowflake viewpoint. Lots of good people calling each other shits without walking a mile in their shoes, while the real elite get on earning their billions like nothing happened, please with the division and chaos that is fomenting beneath them.
TL;DR. I am sad about it. "a wonderfully balanced and incitful post. | |||
| |||
"The only thing I would add to the above is that we do not have a monopoly on Haughty, Over zealous, empire builders. There are plenty of them on the other side of the channel too. It's not all the current governments fault we are in the mess we are in. It's taken 25 years of suckling from the EU cow to get us to this point. Notice how I don't say 46. The Maastrict treaty was when the trouble began and the EEC became the EU." But Maggie wanted her rebate! | |||
"Hello, this is my first post on Brexit anywhere on the internet, I have not felt that I knew enough to comment on it up until now. Even now, this is just my conjecture, I am not part of the EU or parliamentary world, or even the business world, where people may have much more informed opinions. It strikes me that leaving the EU is, from a general population standpoint, just a detail. For some individuals, it may have brilliant or tragic consequences to their livelihoods or fortunes, but overall, it will not move the UK a millimetre further from mainland Europe, we are still part of Europe, but just not part of the EU rules and regulations. Business, especially big business, does not have a great track record of following regulations or national dictats, so I imagine it will carry on as normal, they will always find a loophole to ensure their shareholders are fed. I cannot see that many would relocate without much plotting about avoiding that, the costs would be huge. From a funding point of view, we were net contributors to the EU, so we should save some money. I am in Cornwall, we were massive beneficiaries from EU funding, we still are. This will be a huge blow to us. But the sums are not that significant in public funding terms. I think it was £14 billion per annum. That is not a huge amount in the bigger picture. I have a concern that, once out, the UK will not spend any money at all on supporting those industries and communities where EU has been so essential in preventing increasing poverty or stagnation. From a sovereignty point of view, I have never felt ruled by Europe. Perhaps I am naive, but, with a few exceptions, we write our own laws. The ones we have had to adopt as part of the EU, such as competition rules, data management, human rights, have not been horrible impositions, but rather helpful additions to our statutes that parliament was happy to approve without argument. And the Queen is still in charge, isn't she?
Leaving the EU will be a pain in the arse for travelling in Europe, but not insurmountable. I do a lot of travelling in Europe and it will mean more sitting behind a laptop getting the right forms, but it's not a form of human bondage.
Immigration does not really affect us here in Cornwall, but again, the NHS cannot function without it, so it will look after itself, as big business does. There are one or two cases going through at the moment where surgeons and nurses are facing deportation, but this will be fixed, there is nothing more election losing than a body count.
So, for me, Brexit is not about leaving Europe, it is about giving people a voice to be pissed off with the gap between rich and poor, left and right, white and non-white. These are all real things going on for real people. How often do people get heard, people living hard, hand to mouth lives who they see threatened by unmanaged inequalities and unfairness, unless you are near the centre of government, London.
We are reaping the reward of a lack of democracy over the past decades and possibly longer. We have let issues like immigration, trade and law be dealt with by people who do not check in with us to see if they are going in the right direction.
For the record, I am not pro-Brexit. It breaks my heart that we are separating from a wider Europe, a Europe that goes to war with itself too regularly for comfort, let's not forget former Yugoslavia. The more our fortunes are bound together, the less we will attack each other, but I am sure it doesn't always work that way. I wish we had stayed in, negotiated longer, worked out a way to contribute to the leadership of Europe to avoid the mess it finds itself in, particularly in Hungary, France and Italy. Division is never a good idea for the human race, it dehumanises us. There are plenty of fun psychology experiments that show the harm that can be committed when we see the other as different.
So, that is my bleeding heart, left wing, liberal snowflake viewpoint. Lots of good people calling each other shits without walking a mile in their shoes, while the real elite get on earning their billions like nothing happened, please with the division and chaos that is fomenting beneath them.
TL;DR. I am sad about it. a wonderfully balanced and incitful post. "Thank you.  | |||
"Hello, this is my first post on Brexit anywhere on the internet, I have not felt that I knew enough to comment on it up until now. Even now, this is just my conjecture, I am not part of the EU or parliamentary world, or even the business world, where people may have much more informed opinions. It strikes me that leaving the EU is, from a general population standpoint, just a detail. For some individuals, it may have brilliant or tragic consequences to their livelihoods or fortunes, but overall, it will not move the UK a millimetre further from mainland Europe, we are still part of Europe, but just not part of the EU rules and regulations. Business, especially big business, does not have a great track record of following regulations or national dictats, so I imagine it will carry on as normal, they will always find a loophole to ensure their shareholders are fed. I cannot see that many would relocate without much plotting about avoiding that, the costs would be huge. From a funding point of view, we were net contributors to the EU, so we should save some money. I am in Cornwall, we were massive beneficiaries from EU funding, we still are. This will be a huge blow to us. But the sums are not that significant in public funding terms. I think it was £14 billion per annum. That is not a huge amount in the bigger picture. I have a concern that, once out, the UK will not spend any money at all on supporting those industries and communities where EU has been so essential in preventing increasing poverty or stagnation. From a sovereignty point of view, I have never felt ruled by Europe. Perhaps I am naive, but, with a few exceptions, we write our own laws. The ones we have had to adopt as part of the EU, such as competition rules, data management, human rights, have not been horrible impositions, but rather helpful additions to our statutes that parliament was happy to approve without argument. And the Queen is still in charge, isn't she?
Leaving the EU will be a pain in the arse for travelling in Europe, but not insurmountable. I do a lot of travelling in Europe and it will mean more sitting behind a laptop getting the right forms, but it's not a form of human bondage.
Immigration does not really affect us here in Cornwall, but again, the NHS cannot function without it, so it will look after itself, as big business does. There are one or two cases going through at the moment where surgeons and nurses are facing deportation, but this will be fixed, there is nothing more election losing than a body count.
So, for me, Brexit is not about leaving Europe, it is about giving people a voice to be pissed off with the gap between rich and poor, left and right, white and non-white. These are all real things going on for real people. How often do people get heard, people living hard, hand to mouth lives who they see threatened by unmanaged inequalities and unfairness, unless you are near the centre of government, London.
We are reaping the reward of a lack of democracy over the past decades and possibly longer. We have let issues like immigration, trade and law be dealt with by people who do not check in with us to see if they are going in the right direction.
For the record, I am not pro-Brexit. It breaks my heart that we are separating from a wider Europe, a Europe that goes to war with itself too regularly for comfort, let's not forget former Yugoslavia. The more our fortunes are bound together, the less we will attack each other, but I am sure it doesn't always work that way. I wish we had stayed in, negotiated longer, worked out a way to contribute to the leadership of Europe to avoid the mess it finds itself in, particularly in Hungary, France and Italy. Division is never a good idea for the human race, it dehumanises us. There are plenty of fun psychology experiments that show the harm that can be committed when we see the other as different.
So, that is my bleeding heart, left wing, liberal snowflake viewpoint. Lots of good people calling each other shits without walking a mile in their shoes, while the real elite get on earning their billions like nothing happened, please with the division and chaos that is fomenting beneath them.
TL;DR. I am sad about it. "Whilst I don't agree with everything you've said (although I agree with more than I disagree with) I think this is pretty good and reasonably well thought out post. WELL DONE | |||
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"For decades now the EEC / EU has been moving ever more in the direction of becoming more of a federation than a union. It has been expanding to include poorer Eastern European nations, and the French and Germans have been wielding most of the power. It’s as though we are being drawn into a power vacuum, where we will become the minor players in a Franco/German led political alliance. An unacceptable situation that has shown no signs of slowing let alone stopping. The catalyst for this, IMO, was the Maastricht Treaty, which with its mantra of a closer union, took more of the domestic political power from the nation states, and left more decision making to the Eurocrats in Brussels. I believe that there is a global slump, which will lead to a deep recession in Western nations. The EU is a drain on the resources of some member states, and like it or not, more specifically the UK. There is no point in trying to deny that we are net contributors, and for this reason we will save money by leaving. Sure some people will not be as comfortably off post BREXIT, but the scare tactics being used by remainers are just that. The world will not end in the UK once we are separated from the EU. We will still be European people living on a European island. We will just be in a better position to trade with the rest of the world, and that will include the EU, who despite the rhetoric, will not cut their noses off to spite their faces, the lorries will still be carting their goods across the English Channel, and under the Chunnel. I’m not so comfortable with the “give BREXIT a chance” narrative. That is a bit too much of a suck it and see scenario, we should be marching forward together, resolute that we can and will succeed. Let’s stop the bickering, the scaremongering, and the oneupmanship. Start acting like an island nation, and get on with the work we need to do, to build a future for our children and our children’s children..." Thatcher was only interested in the rebate - which she won but didn't realise what she lost by gaining it! Well the penny did drop but it was too late. Short term gain - long term loss - the UK model unfortunately. Yes the poorer eastern European states are being supported by the richer ones. Having suffered under the Russian influences - which collapsed left a big hole. However, as they become more prosperous they will become self sufficient. Romania for example it's GDP is growing a lot faster than the UK - about 6% - from memory - one of the reasons they are not so keen to come to the UK anymore. The UK economy when it was too of the G7 attracted migrants - economic migrants because it was doing so well. But the British did the same in the 60-70's - we want to Saudi for 5-10yrs then came back and bought a house outright! British bricklayers went to Germany - so many that they created a tv programme. It all changes and will continue to do so. The current western model is flawed - but how you solve it is another matter. But on the positive note from 1/4/19 -£350m will be going into the NHS - and that's going to solve that problem. Then we just gotta fix all the other problems! But it doesn't help when prominent brexiteers say one thing and do another - Dyson and his car manufacturing - an ideal opportunity to boost UK manufacturing and yes he's invested £200m into developing it here in the UK - like a piece of chocolate - we want the whole bar if UK is going to succeed. We don't want zero hour contracts either - good jobs with decent pay please! | |||
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"For decades now the EEC / EU has been moving ever more in the direction of becoming more of a federation than a union. It has been expanding to include poorer Eastern European nations, and the French and Germans have been wielding most of the power. It’s as though we are being drawn into a power vacuum, where we will become the minor players in a Franco/German led political alliance. An unacceptable situation that has shown no signs of slowing let alone stopping. The catalyst for this, IMO, was the Maastricht Treaty, which with its mantra of a closer union, took more of the domestic political power from the nation states, and left more decision making to the Eurocrats in Brussels. I believe that there is a global slump, which will lead to a deep recession in Western nations. The EU is a drain on the resources of some member states, and like it or not, more specifically the UK. There is no point in trying to deny that we are net contributors, and for this reason we will save money by leaving. Sure some people will not be as comfortably off post BREXIT, but the scare tactics being used by remainers are just that. The world will not end in the UK once we are separated from the EU. We will still be European people living on a European island. We will just be in a better position to trade with the rest of the world, and that will include the EU, who despite the rhetoric, will not cut their noses off to spite their faces, the lorries will still be carting their goods across the English Channel, and under the Chunnel. I’m not so comfortable with the “give BREXIT a chance” narrative. That is a bit too much of a suck it and see scenario, we should be marching forward together, resolute that we can and will succeed. Let’s stop the bickering, the scaremongering, and the oneupmanship. Start acting like an island nation, and get on with the work we need to do, to build a future for our children and our children’s children..." If the vote had been 52 to 48 for staying in the EU, would you have been "marching forward together" with remainers resolute that the EU "can and will succeed"? | |||
"For decades now the EEC / EU has been moving ever more in the direction of becoming more of a federation than a union. It has been expanding to include poorer Eastern European nations, and the French and Germans have been wielding most of the power. It’s as though we are being drawn into a power vacuum, where we will become the minor players in a Franco/German led political alliance. An unacceptable situation that has shown no signs of slowing let alone stopping. The catalyst for this, IMO, was the Maastricht Treaty, which with its mantra of a closer union, took more of the domestic political power from the nation states, and left more decision making to the Eurocrats in Brussels. I believe that there is a global slump, which will lead to a deep recession in Western nations. The EU is a drain on the resources of some member states, and like it or not, more specifically the UK. There is no point in trying to deny that we are net contributors, and for this reason we will save money by leaving. Sure some people will not be as comfortably off post BREXIT, but the scare tactics being used by remainers are just that. The world will not end in the UK once we are separated from the EU. We will still be European people living on a European island. We will just be in a better position to trade with the rest of the world, and that will include the EU, who despite the rhetoric, will not cut their noses off to spite their faces, the lorries will still be carting their goods across the English Channel, and under the Chunnel. I’m not so comfortable with the “give BREXIT a chance” narrative. That is a bit too much of a suck it and see scenario, we should be marching forward together, resolute that we can and will succeed. Let’s stop the bickering, the scaremongering, and the oneupmanship. Start acting like an island nation, and get on with the work we need to do, to build a future for our children and our children’s children... If the vote had been 52 to 48 for staying in the EU, would you have been "marching forward together" with remainers resolute that the EU "can and will succeed"? " I don’t know, because it didn’t happen, superfluous question. | |||
"For decades now the EEC / EU has been moving ever more in the direction of becoming more of a federation than a union. It has been expanding to include poorer Eastern European nations, and the French and Germans have been wielding most of the power. It’s as though we are being drawn into a power vacuum, where we will become the minor players in a Franco/German led political alliance. An unacceptable situation that has shown no signs of slowing let alone stopping. The catalyst for this, IMO, was the Maastricht Treaty, which with its mantra of a closer union, took more of the domestic political power from the nation states, and left more decision making to the Eurocrats in Brussels. I believe that there is a global slump, which will lead to a deep recession in Western nations. The EU is a drain on the resources of some member states, and like it or not, more specifically the UK. There is no point in trying to deny that we are net contributors, and for this reason we will save money by leaving. Sure some people will not be as comfortably off post BREXIT, but the scare tactics being used by remainers are just that. The world will not end in the UK once we are separated from the EU. We will still be European people living on a European island. We will just be in a better position to trade with the rest of the world, and that will include the EU, who despite the rhetoric, will not cut their noses off to spite their faces, the lorries will still be carting their goods across the English Channel, and under the Chunnel. I’m not so comfortable with the “give BREXIT a chance” narrative. That is a bit too much of a suck it and see scenario, we should be marching forward together, resolute that we can and will succeed. Let’s stop the bickering, the scaremongering, and the oneupmanship. Start acting like an island nation, and get on with the work we need to do, to build a future for our children and our children’s children... If the vote had been 52 to 48 for staying in the EU, would you have been "marching forward together" with remainers resolute that the EU "can and will succeed"? I don’t know, because it didn’t happen, superfluous question." So if you're not sure how you would have reacted to the vote going against you why do you expect people who sincerely believe brexit to be a complete disaster for this country to help to press it forward? | |||
"For decades now the EEC / EU has been moving ever more in the direction of becoming more of a federation than a union. It has been expanding to include poorer Eastern European nations, and the French and Germans have been wielding most of the power. It’s as though we are being drawn into a power vacuum, where we will become the minor players in a Franco/German led political alliance. An unacceptable situation that has shown no signs of slowing let alone stopping. The catalyst for this, IMO, was the Maastricht Treaty, which with its mantra of a closer union, took more of the domestic political power from the nation states, and left more decision making to the Eurocrats in Brussels. I believe that there is a global slump, which will lead to a deep recession in Western nations. The EU is a drain on the resources of some member states, and like it or not, more specifically the UK. There is no point in trying to deny that we are net contributors, and for this reason we will save money by leaving. Sure some people will not be as comfortably off post BREXIT, but the scare tactics being used by remainers are just that. The world will not end in the UK once we are separated from the EU. We will still be European people living on a European island. We will just be in a better position to trade with the rest of the world, and that will include the EU, who despite the rhetoric, will not cut their noses off to spite their faces, the lorries will still be carting their goods across the English Channel, and under the Chunnel. I’m not so comfortable with the “give BREXIT a chance” narrative. That is a bit too much of a suck it and see scenario, we should be marching forward together, resolute that we can and will succeed. Let’s stop the bickering, the scaremongering, and the oneupmanship. Start acting like an island nation, and get on with the work we need to do, to build a future for our children and our children’s children... If the vote had been 52 to 48 for staying in the EU, would you have been "marching forward together" with remainers resolute that the EU "can and will succeed"? I don’t know, because it didn’t happen, superfluous question. So if you're not sure how you would have reacted to the vote going against you why do you expect people who sincerely believe brexit to be a complete disaster for this country to help to press it forward? " Because you lost an argument you think you should give up trying and not try to push together as a country? You want the economy to go backwards because you wanted to stay in the EU? It’s up to you, I’m unsure because the situation you mention never happened. I don’t think I would want things to go wrong if we had stayed in. I think they would have but no way would I want them too. | |||
"For decades now the EEC / EU has been moving ever more in the direction of becoming more of a federation than a union. It has been expanding to include poorer Eastern European nations, and the French and Germans have been wielding most of the power. It’s as though we are being drawn into a power vacuum, where we will become the minor players in a Franco/German led political alliance. An unacceptable situation that has shown no signs of slowing let alone stopping. The catalyst for this, IMO, was the Maastricht Treaty, which with its mantra of a closer union, took more of the domestic political power from the nation states, and left more decision making to the Eurocrats in Brussels. I believe that there is a global slump, which will lead to a deep recession in Western nations. The EU is a drain on the resources of some member states, and like it or not, more specifically the UK. There is no point in trying to deny that we are net contributors, and for this reason we will save money by leaving. Sure some people will not be as comfortably off post BREXIT, but the scare tactics being used by remainers are just that. The world will not end in the UK once we are separated from the EU. We will still be European people living on a European island. We will just be in a better position to trade with the rest of the world, and that will include the EU, who despite the rhetoric, will not cut their noses off to spite their faces, the lorries will still be carting their goods across the English Channel, and under the Chunnel. I’m not so comfortable with the “give BREXIT a chance” narrative. That is a bit too much of a suck it and see scenario, we should be marching forward together, resolute that we can and will succeed. Let’s stop the bickering, the scaremongering, and the oneupmanship. Start acting like an island nation, and get on with the work we need to do, to build a future for our children and our children’s children... If the vote had been 52 to 48 for staying in the EU, would you have been "marching forward together" with remainers resolute that the EU "can and will succeed"? I don’t know, because it didn’t happen, superfluous question. So if you're not sure how you would have reacted to the vote going against you why do you expect people who sincerely believe brexit to be a complete disaster for this country to help to press it forward? Because you lost an argument you think you should give up trying and not try to push together as a country? You want the economy to go backwards because you wanted to stay in the EU? It’s up to you, I’m unsure because the situation you mention never happened. I don’t think I would want things to go wrong if we had stayed in. I think they would have but no way would I want them too." I don't want things to go wrong, which is precisely why I can't assist what I consider to be an act of national self harm. And you and I know very well that had there been a narrow remain victory the leavers would not have decided to work hard to make a success of the EU. They would have continued their leave agitation, as would have been their right. | |||
