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How do Labour leavers feel about thier party?
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"So now labour have made it clear that they will not support any deal made by May and want another referendum on in or out do labour leavers feel betrayed? " Labour and the conservatives never had the Same plan... just the end concept That is why they had two completely different views and visions of brexit ... and still have two completely different versions The best thing the conservatives could have done would have been to make the department for exiting the Eu a unity department and therefore take out the political aspects, but the conservatives hard right have hijacked the direction for their own motives | |||
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"So now labour have made it clear that they will not support any deal made by May and want another referendum on in or out do labour leavers feel betrayed? Labour and the conservatives never had the Same plan... just the end concept That is why they had two completely different views and visions of brexit ... and still have two completely different versions The best thing the conservatives could have done would have been to make the department for exiting the Eu a unity department and therefore take out the political aspects, but the conservatives hard right have hijacked the direction for their own motives " that was not the question millions of labour supporters voted to leave and thier party are ignoring thier wishes. | |||
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"So now labour have made it clear that they will not support any deal made by May and want another referendum on in or out do labour leavers feel betrayed? " I voted remain and labour, and i think it's a really really shit idea! | |||
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"I expect the person who is voted in by the people to respect the decision.This is why radical fractions are popmarried ping up all over Europe people are fed up with dictators telling them they they know best and are wrong for voting this way or that." So again if you feel the Tory version of brexit is shit... and your own party version of brexit would be fundamentally better.. you still want labour mp to vote for a version of brexit they don’t believe in? | |||
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"I expect the person who is voted in by the people to respect the decision.This is why radical fractions are popmarried ping up all over Europe people are fed up with dictators telling them they they know best and are wrong for voting this way or that." True. Although I'd rather have had a PM who voted leave in charge at the moment. I get the feeling May is setting us up to fail. | |||
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"Just give us a general election. Each party can put forward their intended very clear intended brexit proposals. Which ever party wins just gets on with it." Yes that would be nice as no one seems very clear. | |||
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"Another act of treachery by Corbyn, he promised that Labour would respect the result of the referendum we have already had. Now he has completely changed direction. He can’t be trusted and it is a good job he never will be Prime Minister. " "Treachery?" Have you swallowed an entire Daily Mail today or something? The referendum *has* been respected. Article 50 was triggered. That is it. We are leaving. It is now as case of trying to negotiate the least-worst outcome of that. -Matt | |||
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"I expect the person who is voted in by the people to respect the decision.This is why radical fractions are popmarried ping up all over Europe people are fed up with dictators telling them they they know best and are wrong for voting this way or that." So then what would be the difference between moggsy and his ERG chums voting against chequers plan... and labour voting against the chequers plan? They both don’t believe in Teresa’s version of brexit... and they both believe the version of brexit they want would be a lot better.... it would be hypocritical to slate one and not the other if they basically do the same thing or are you giving one a pass | |||
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"Well I've just joined the Labour Party after losing faith with the greens and I think it's great but then I am a remoaner "And proud! And i respect that.  | |||
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"Another act of treachery by Corbyn, he promised that Labour would respect the result of the referendum we have already had. Now he has completely changed direction. He can’t be trusted and it is a good job he never will be Prime Minister. "Treachery?" Have you swallowed an entire Daily Mail today or something? The referendum *has* been respected. Article 50 was triggered. That is it. We are leaving. It is now as case of trying to negotiate the least-worst outcome of that. -Matt" His party have announced that they will oppose all the govts BREXIT proposals, and call for another general election. If they don’t get that they will push for another in/out referendum on the EU, and are not ruling out a remain victory. How is any of that respecting the result of our referendum? | |||
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"No leaver can truly say “this” is what they voted for.... because in the last 3 weeks “this” has gone from the chequers plan... to no deal wto rules... to some sort of Canada plus option this week It’s a cluster fuck.... if we have gone through 3 different plans just in the space of 28 days, how are the Eu suppose to know what to negotiate about? It’s all well and good some people looking at it as being a betrayal of some sort... it is only a betrayal if we all knew what the original plan was... and nobody really has a scooby what the hell that was! " you mean like Labour s 3 diffrent plans _abio from e will respect the vote to we want the ppl t have a vote on final decision to we will have remain on the table now this will finally finish Corbyn now | |||
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"I expect the person who is voted in by the people to respect the decision.This is why radical fractions are popmarried ping up all over Europe people are fed up with dictators telling them they they know best and are wrong for voting this way or that. True. Although I'd rather have had a PM who voted leave in charge at the moment. I get the feeling May is setting us up to fail. " Unfortunately, the chief leavers in the government have run away from responsibility for brexit by resigning. They know the outcome will be shit and want to position themselves to shout "betrayal" when it all goes tits up. Contemptible. | |||
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"I expect the person who is voted in by the people to respect the decision.This is why radical fractions are popmarried ping up all over Europe people are fed up with dictators telling them they they know best and are wrong for voting this way or that. True. Although I'd rather have had a PM who voted leave in charge at the moment. I get the feeling May is setting us up to fail. Unfortunately, the chief leavers in the government have run away from responsibility for brexit by resigning. They know the outcome will be shit and want to position themselves to shout "betrayal" when it all goes tits up. Contemptible. " This.. In opposition its easy to say we will do this that or the other but the reality of taking responsibility and doing it has only served to show a section of the tory party as clueless, gutless and totally inept.. | |||
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"No leaver can truly say “this” is what they voted for.... because in the last 3 weeks “this” has gone from the chequers plan... to no deal wto rules... to some sort of Canada plus option this week It’s a cluster fuck.... if we have gone through 3 different plans just in the space of 28 days, how are the Eu suppose to know what to negotiate about? It’s all well and good some people looking at it as being a betrayal of some sort... it is only a betrayal if we all knew what the original plan was... and nobody really has a scooby what the hell that was! you mean like Labour s 3 diffrent plans _abio from e will respect the vote to we want the ppl t have a vote on final decision to we will have remain on the table now this will finally finish Corbyn now " Same thing applies... people can’t say “this” is what they voted for... If two sides fundamentally disagree on what their version of brexit looks like I wouldn’t expect tories to vote for Corbyn version... likewise why would people expect labour to vote for Teresa’s version? | |||
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"No leaver can truly say “this” is what they voted for.... because in the last 3 weeks “this” has gone from the chequers plan... to no deal wto rules... to some sort of Canada plus option this week It’s a cluster fuck.... if we have gone through 3 different plans just in the space of 28 days, how are the Eu suppose to know what to negotiate about? It’s all well and good some people looking at it as being a betrayal of some sort... it is only a betrayal if we all knew what the original plan was... and nobody really has a scooby what the hell that was! " But every leaver can say one thing....they did not vote to remain. | |||
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"So do you think that labour mp should vote through a plan for brexit they vehemently disagree with? They may like to principal but not the concept the conservatives are pushing them in the direction of? If the tories can’t agree within themselves.. then how do you expect the Labour Party to agree with them " Not even Labour can agree within themselves... | |||
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"No leaver can truly say “this” is what they voted for.... because in the last 3 weeks “this” has gone from the chequers plan... to no deal wto rules... to some sort of Canada plus option this week It’s a cluster fuck.... if we have gone through 3 different plans just in the space of 28 days, how are the Eu suppose to know what to negotiate about? It’s all well and good some people looking at it as being a betrayal of some sort... it is only a betrayal if we all knew what the original plan was... and nobody really has a scooby what the hell that was! But every leaver can say one thing....they did not vote to remain. " | |||
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"We had a referendum vote .the result was LEAVE. I don't care what party they represent .we don't want second or third referendums .its time this lot stopped treating us like idiots .this is not a game . get on with it and get us out of that bloody awful circus " couldn't agree more. | |||
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"Just give us a general election. Each party can put forward their intended very clear intended brexit proposals. Which ever party wins just gets on with it." Wasn't the last snap election was supposed to do | |||
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"WE didn’t vote on a version of brexit Fabio so stop harping on about that we voted in or out simple as that and pls don’t give us the blank check thing again. " YOU keep telling us that you knew what you voted for Shame your political party doesn’t In the last hour the ERG have said they will vote against Theresa chequers plan in parliament and want Canada plus Teresa then says she’s she won’t put forward Canada plus as it will lead to a break up of the UK and the union So who should I be believing right now... please tell me! So did your leave vote consider a break up of the union... I don’t think anyone’s did! But our PM is putting that prospect out there! I maintain that people who voted on the mainland for brexit would absolutely dump Northern Ireland if it meant your Brexit dream coming true and I absolutely stand by that comment | |||
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"My brexit dream get a grip man it was never my dream a vote came along and I voted it’s not like iv spent yrs dreaming of it I did know what I voted for was to leave simple sturgeon as tried to break up the uk and will try again are you going to blame that on leavers Fabio " No.... what I am pointing out that even in the last hour 2 different sides on the same coin are still bickering over what their version of brexit should be! And if they are still bickering how are the rest of us suppose to know | |||
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"So now labour have made it clear that they will not support any deal made by May and want another referendum on in or out do labour leavers feel betrayed? " Honestly? To me its a stance made by the labour leaders for the good of the labour leadership and to hell with the people it will effect one way or another. The fact that Mr Corbin wants to weaken the UK's potential outcome says it all about him alas the loony left has returned. | |||
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"Fabio how do you know what people think unless you are psychic I guess you are surmising that people would dump N Ireland don't judge everyone by your standards " Because we forever get told that leavers knew exactly what they were voting for! Are you saying that is now not the case? Also going back to your original post, the ERG group of mps have now confirmed they will vote against the government and Teresa chequers plan Which brings us back to the original question... are you applying a double standard to both the ERG group and the Labour Party for not voting with the government brexit plan? | |||
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"Fabio how do you know what people think unless you are psychic I guess you are surmising that people would dump N Ireland don't judge everyone by your standards Because we forever get told that leavers knew exactly what they were voting for! Are you saying that is now not the case? Also going back to your original post, the ERG group of mps have now confirmed they will vote against the government and Teresa chequers plan Which brings us back to the original question... are you applying a double standard to both the ERG group and the Labour Party for not voting with the government brexit plan?" Yes I voted for out there was only one question in or out so don't keep banging on about we didn't know what we were voting for simple | |||
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"So now labour have made it clear that they will not support any deal made by May and want another referendum on in or out do labour leavers feel betrayed? " Getting back to the OP some Labour supporter friends of mine tried to convince me to vote Labour at the last general election. I told them Labour could not be trusted to deliver Brexit and would go back on their manifesto commitment to leave. Seems that suspicion was fully justified and Labour could never be trusted to deliver Brexit, betraying all those Labour leave voters in the Midlands and the North. Now their eyes have been fully opened I expect Labour to lose a lot of support from leave voters in the Midlands and the north of England. | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? "where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out. | |||
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"Fabio how do you know what people think unless you are psychic I guess you are surmising that people would dump N Ireland don't judge everyone by your standards Because we forever get told that leavers knew exactly what they were voting for! Are you saying that is now not the case? Also going back to your original post, the ERG group of mps have now confirmed they will vote against the government and Teresa chequers plan Which brings us back to the original question... are you applying a double standard to both the ERG group and the Labour Party for not voting with the government brexit plan?" they did know _abio they voted to leave but as no other country had gone through this before know one knew the full out come but that didn’t stop them voteing out but crack on I’m sure it won’t stop you asking again tho | |||
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"So now labour have made it clear that they will not support any deal made by May and want another referendum on in or out do labour leavers feel betrayed? Getting back to the OP some Labour supporter friends of mine tried to convince me to vote Labour at the last general election. I told them Labour could not be trusted to deliver Brexit and would go back on their manifesto commitment to leave. Seems that suspicion was fully justified and Labour could never be trusted to deliver Brexit, betraying all those Labour leave voters in the Midlands and the North. Now their eyes have been fully opened I expect Labour to lose a lot of support from leave voters in the Midlands and the north of England. " almost the full north east councils were leave this will hurt Corbyn badly | |||
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" Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out. "Then how is it a betrayal if they decide to vote against the government if it is because they want a different type of brexit agreement or arrangement? That is what I am getting at | |||
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" Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
Then how is it a betrayal if they decide to vote against the government if it is because they want a different type of brexit agreement or arrangement?
That is what I am getting at"because you know as well as I do it's not about brexit its about corbyn getting into number ten and he is prepared to sell millions of his supporters down the river to get it.A dangerous game because it might just bite him on the arse. | |||
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" Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
Then how is it a betrayal if they decide to vote against the government if it is because they want a different type of brexit agreement or arrangement?
That is what I am getting atbecause you know as well as I do it's not about brexit its about corbyn getting into number ten and he is prepared to sell millions of his supporters down the river to get it.A dangerous game because it might just bite him on the arse."To be fair i feel like he's been forced. | |||
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" Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
Then how is it a betrayal if they decide to vote against the government if it is because they want a different type of brexit agreement or arrangement?
That is what I am getting atbecause you know as well as I do it's not about brexit its about corbyn getting into number ten and he is prepared to sell millions of his supporters down the river to get it.A dangerous game because it might just bite him on the arse."But you gave the ERG group a pass for doing exactly the same thing... which is voting against the government to push a different version of brexit | |||
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" Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
Then how is it a betrayal if they decide to vote against the government if it is because they want a different type of brexit agreement or arrangement?
That is what I am getting atbecause you know as well as I do it's not about brexit its about corbyn getting into number ten and he is prepared to sell millions of his supporters down the river to get it.A dangerous game because it might just bite him on the arse.
But you gave the ERG group a pass for doing exactly the same thing... which is voting against the government to push a different version of brexit
"I always assumed leave ment leave. Just like JRM seems to want. I didn't think leave ment leave but kinda stay as much as possible. | |||
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"Corbyn on bbc news at 6 refusing to say which way he would vote if we had a second vote there’s a shock then lol" He's always been anti. He knows it's all about capitalism, and he's no fan of that. | |||
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"Yep one single question and he can't even answer that.They say the Tories are in disarray. "He's not allowed to say. The labour party must think we're all thick! Jc wants to leave, we know this. But the new "right on" liberal members think he's going to get them back into Europe. I'm kinda looking forward to the tears...  | |||
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"Yep one single question and he can't even answer that.They say the Tories are in disarray.
He's not allowed to say. The labour party must think we're all thick! Jc wants to leave, we know this. But the new "right on" liberal members think he's going to get them back into Europe. I'm kinda looking forward to the tears... "of course he does he wouldn't be able to get his radical plans through if he was still in the EU. | |||
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"Yep one single question and he can't even answer that.They say the Tories are in disarray.
He's not allowed to say. The labour party must think we're all thick! Jc wants to leave, we know this. But the new "right on" liberal members think he's going to get them back into Europe. I'm kinda looking forward to the tears... of course he does he wouldn't be able to get his radical plans through if he was still in the EU."I'm looking forward to them. | |||
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"We had a referendum vote .the result was LEAVE. I don't care what party they represent .we don't want second or third referendums .its time this lot stopped treating us like idiots .this is not a game . get on with it and get us out of that bloody awful circus " The last one was the 2nd one.. | |||
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"This is nothing to do with overturning Brexit and everything to do with getting the keys to No. 10. It is pretty clear from Starmer and others that Labour will oppose whatever Brexit plan May brings to the Commons. The Tory extremists will have to decide whether to join with Labour and hole the government below the waterline. A General Election becomes inevitable. If somehow May gets something through and survives, Labour positions itself as the party that wanted to let the people decide, especially if the May deal is unpopular. So either way, it is about positioning Labour for a General Election. I do not believe there will be a 2nd referendum. " This, that dumping May could mean a GE might focus some of the semi hard line tories and anyone in a marginal seat although with labour upsetting some of their leave voters then who knows what will happen apart from the Euro probably being worth more than the pound for a time.. | |||
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"I am a Labour voter and also voted remain. The situation is one of total madness. Each party is stabbing each other in the back all the while we are edging ever closer to the leave date.The vote was leave surely this should have meant that all party talks and ideas for the future should have been carried out. Where does it all stop. A vote is a vote then get on with it." After the vote I suggested that the issue be dealt with by an all party committee to get the best deal because whatever happened it would need to at least try and close the divide between voters on both sides.. It was laughed down as people felt happier saying you lost etc than looking at how we should as a nation possibly approach it.. Hey feckin ho.. | |||
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"Another act of treachery by Corbyn, he promised that Labour would respect the result of the referendum we have already had. Now he has completely changed direction. He can’t be trusted and it is a good job he never will be Prime Minister. "Treachery?" Have you swallowed an entire Daily Mail today or something? The referendum *has* been respected. Article 50 was triggered. That is it. We are leaving. It is now as case of trying to negotiate the least-worst outcome of that. -Matt His party have announced that they will oppose all the govts BREXIT proposals, and call for another general election. If they don’t get that they will push for another in/out referendum on the EU, and are not ruling out a remain victory. How is any of that respecting the result of our referendum? " Well the leave vote was done on lies. | |||
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"I am a Labour voter and also voted remain. The situation is one of total madness. Each party is stabbing each other in the back all the while we are edging ever closer to the leave date.The vote was leave surely this should have meant that all party talks and ideas for the future should have been carried out. Where does it all stop. A vote is a vote then get on with it. After the vote I suggested that the issue be dealt with by an all party committee to get the best deal because whatever happened it would need to at least try and close the divide between voters on both sides.. It was laughed down as people felt happier saying you lost etc than looking at how we should as a nation possibly approach it.. Hey feckin ho.. " yes an all party committee made up only of leave supporting MPs would of been better then I think Corbyn would of came out as a leave supporter lol | |||
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"I am a Labour voter and also voted remain. The situation is one of total madness. Each party is stabbing each other in the back all the while we are edging ever closer to the leave date.The vote was leave surely this should have meant that all party talks and ideas for the future should have been carried out. Where does it all stop. A vote is a vote then get on with it. After the vote I suggested that the issue be dealt with by an all party committee to get the best deal because whatever happened it would need to at least try and close the divide between voters on both sides.. It was laughed down as people felt happier saying you lost etc than looking at how we should as a nation possibly approach it.. Hey feckin ho.. yes an all party committee made up only of leave supporting MPs would of been better then I think Corbyn would of came out as a leave supporter lol " That would have been ideal. | |||
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"The situation is one of total madness. Each party is stabbing each other in the back all the while we are edging ever closer to the leave date." Yep. Total madness. From the outside, UK looks like a country having a nervous breakdown. The EU27 know it. A country undergoing its biggest upheaval in living memory, with no coherent plan and run by an administration paralysed by infighting. The moment the EU said it would not discuss any departure issues until Article 50 was received, the UK was looking down the rabbit hole. A party governing in the national interest at that point would have acted in the national interest. But this shambles has never been about the national interest, only the interests of the Conservative Party. The Tories took us straight down the rabbit hole. | |||
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"Well done labour as voted tory but Labour have come up trumps with a proposal for another vote. And voting against a deal that the tories come back with. " Apparently Jeremy has to ask Putins permission first.  | |||
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"That the Labour Party can force a loss is indicative of the dissent in the tory ranks. They’re in government. Albeit a minority. If there’s any anger it should be at tories not following the whip (if it ends at this)" Exactly it will be Tories who will vote against the goverment that will tip the balance . Rebel Tories will force a second referendum or another GE. Corbyn and the Labour Party are just playing the hand they've been dealt . | |||
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"Well done labour as voted tory but Labour have come up trumps with a proposal for another vote. And voting against a deal that the tories come back with. Apparently Jeremy has to ask Putins permission first. "Well that doesn't both us who he asks. | |||
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"Well I've just joined the Labour Party after losing faith with the greens and I think it's great but then I am a remoaner "So the Greens weren't the party of the future after all Bob!You might come to realise leaving is the right choice too! Lol | |||
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"Well done labour as voted tory but Labour have come up trumps with a proposal for another vote. And voting against a deal that the tories come back with. Apparently Jeremy has to ask Putins permission first. "putin is bound to say no given he engineered the first no result ...  | |||
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"Well done labour as voted tory but Labour have come up trumps with a proposal for another vote. And voting against a deal that the tories come back with. " Wait until they are asked to vote they will abstain as always | |||
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"Another act of treachery by Corbyn, he promised that Labour would respect the result of the referendum we have already had. Now he has completely changed direction. He can’t be trusted and it is a good job he never will be Prime Minister. " I really hope and prey he never becomes PM | |||
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"Another act of treachery by Corbyn, he promised that Labour would respect the result of the referendum we have already had. Now he has completely changed direction. He can’t be trusted and it is a good job he never will be Prime Minister. "Treachery?" Have you swallowed an entire Daily Mail today or something? The referendum *has* been respected. Article 50 was triggered. That is it. We are leaving. It is now as case of trying to negotiate the least-worst outcome of that. -Matt His party have announced that they will oppose all the govts BREXIT proposals, and call for another general election. If they don’t get that they will push for another in/out referendum on the EU, and are not ruling out a remain victory. How is any of that respecting the result of our referendum? Well the leave vote was done on lies. " Theremain campaign was not!Ha ha | |||
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"Jeremy is more cut out to be a swinger than the PM the man is clueless the only think he is sure in his mind about is he hates the jews which is unsettling to say the least. "If he ever did get elected, which is extremely unlikely, he had better watch his back. Because if the Zionists think he is a threat, he will be assassinated. Never underestimate MOSSAD.,, | |||
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"I think it's a great idea and finally gives us a clear choice between the parties. Yippee!! Yes it may alienate some traditional Labour voters. But it'll more than make up by attracting people from across the spectrum. I think we just need to get to the point where we realise that there's absolutely nothing Jeremy Corbyn could do to harm our country any more than Brexit would. Then even the most ardent Tory will vote for him "nothing he could do to harm the country you must be having a laugh.John McDonnell bankrupt the GLC when in charge of the finances in the mid eighties. | |||
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"I think it's a great idea and finally gives us a clear choice between the parties. Yippee!! Yes it may alienate some traditional Labour voters. But it'll more than make up by attracting people from across the spectrum. I think we just need to get to the point where we realise that there's absolutely nothing Jeremy Corbyn could do to harm our country any more than Brexit would. Then even the most ardent Tory will vote for him nothing he could do to harm the country you must be having a laugh.John McDonnell bankrupt the GLC when in charge of the finances in the mid eighties. "Yes. And bankrupting the country would be an improvement on brexit. At least we could recover from that | |||
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"I think it's a great idea and finally gives us a clear choice between the parties. Yippee!! Yes it may alienate some traditional Labour voters. But it'll more than make up by attracting people from across the spectrum. I think we just need to get to the point where we realise that there's absolutely nothing Jeremy Corbyn could do to harm our country any more than Brexit would. Then even the most ardent Tory will vote for him "I think this may be a hard sell. Even though I’m still on the remain side of the fence, I don’t think Brexit is the guaranteed worse thing ever. It’s probabky not even the biggest issue we face. Just the most in our face and immediate. So even as a someone who has more left leanings I’m not convinced JC can’t and won’t do damage. If I were more right wing, I suspect I’d be even morse sceptical. No deal is better than a bad government ? | |||
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"I think it's a great idea and finally gives us a clear choice between the parties. Yippee!! Yes it may alienate some traditional Labour voters. But it'll more than make up by attracting people from across the spectrum. I think we just need to get to the point where we realise that there's absolutely nothing Jeremy Corbyn could do to harm our country any more than Brexit would. Then even the most ardent Tory will vote for him
I think this may be a hard sell. Even though I’m still on the remain side of the fence, I don’t think Brexit is the guaranteed worse thing ever. It’s probabky not even the biggest issue we face. Just the most in our face and immediate. So even as a someone who has more left leanings I’m not convinced JC can’t and won’t do damage. If I were more right wing, I suspect I’d be even morse sceptical. No deal is better than a bad government ?"Sorry to be the voice of project fear but it's not an impossibility that brexit could lead to permanent loss of stature for the UK. It *is* a risk. We *are* winging it and hoping for the best. And that's not a good national strategy. Quite what the probability of the UK being forever more reduced in stature is, I don't know. Is it 20%? Or 1%? Whatever it is... in my mind it's a reckless risk considering the minimal "benefits" of leaving i.e a *perceived* sense of having greater sovereignty in an era of globalism. In comparison Corbyn will be straight jacketed by his own party and Parliament into being probably a highly ineffective pm. And when 5 years is over so is the problem. | |||
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"So now labour have made it clear that they will not support any deal made by May and want another referendum on in or out do labour leavers feel betrayed? Labour and the conservatives never had the Same plan... just the end concept That is why they had two completely different views and visions of brexit ... and still have two completely different versions The best thing the conservatives could have done would have been to make the department for exiting the Eu a unity department and therefore take out the political aspects, but the conservatives hard right have hijacked the direction for their own motives " Lablur have had about 22 completely different views of Brexit....they even announced their policy and wording on the 'people's vote' and within two days senior figures were disagreeing with each other about that! With the shambles of a tory government, Labour should be 20 points ahead in the polls, but instead find themselves behind.....they have no-one else to blame but themselves. | |||
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"Corbyn and McDonnell must be furious with Kier Starmer, after he inserted a line into his speech, about a second referendum being a possibility. It hadn't been agreed and makes the Labour Party look to be as split as ever. The bottom.line is this. If we stay in the EU, and a second referendum would surely go that way, then the fiscal proposals of McDonnell will not be possible under EU law. " Yes they will (unfortunately from my point of view). | |||
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"Voted remain and Labour at the last election, I think its just another indication of what a mess the whole thing is and has been 'handled' by all parties.. Corbyn trying to enforce the whip on Labour MP's will be interesting.. Fact is they all change their policies or should do as things not known before become apparent later when in office or opposition so I don't see this as a surprise.. Politics eh.. " Well I'm not a Labour supporter but in this case Labour has been saying for well over a year that if a BREXIT deal does not meet its 6 tests it will vote it down. No charge there. Labour has also been saying for well over a year that all options are on the table so no charge there either. In fact the only thing that has changed is the emphasis. Labour are talking a little more about remain and people's vote but still not committing to either. | |||
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"My brexit dream get a grip man it was never my dream a vote came along and I voted it’s not like iv spent yrs dreaming of it I did know what I voted for was to leave simple sturgeon as tried to break up the uk and will try again are you going to blame that on leavers Fabio " We get that you voted leave but what we want to know now is what leave you hoped to get? No deal, something like Cheques, Canada+++, EFTA or something else? | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out. "So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market? | |||
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"Corbyn and McDonnell must be furious with Kier Starmer, after he inserted a line into his speech, about a second referendum being a possibility. It hadn't been agreed and makes the Labour Party look to be as split as ever. The bottom.line is this. If we stay in the EU, and a second referendum would surely go that way, then the fiscal proposals of McDonnell will not be possible under EU law. Yes they will (unfortunately from my point of view)." You cannot truely nationalise under EU law. | |||
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"Corbyn and McDonnell must be furious with Kier Starmer, after he inserted a line into his speech, about a second referendum being a possibility. It hadn't been agreed and makes the Labour Party look to be as split as ever. The bottom.line is this. If we stay in the EU, and a second referendum would surely go that way, then the fiscal proposals of McDonnell will not be possible under EU law. Yes they will (unfortunately from my point of view). You cannot truely nationalise under EU law." Yes you can https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation | |||
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"Corbyn and McDonnell must be furious with Kier Starmer, after he inserted a line into his speech, about a second referendum being a possibility. It hadn't been agreed and makes the Labour Party look to be as split as ever. The bottom.line is this. If we stay in the EU, and a second referendum would surely go that way, then the fiscal proposals of McDonnell will not be possible under EU law. Yes they will (unfortunately from my point of view). You cannot truely nationalise under EU law. Yes you can https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation " The courts may say otherwise, depending on interpretation of the law. EU law states that open competition is necessary. It could be that the Government wins any franchise bid, but then they would not be able to give any state subsidy. Taking the railways as an example. Open access is permitted under EU law. That means other operators other than the State would be allowed to apply for and run their own services. This is at the root of the recent French rail strikes, as other operators are claiming this right and the EU has told SNCF to comply. As I see it, this isn't a true "nationalisation" of the railways, as other private operators could apply to run their own services. I assume that this would be the case with power, water etc as well. | |||
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"Corbyn and McDonnell must be furious with Kier Starmer, after he inserted a line into his speech, about a second referendum being a possibility. It hadn't been agreed and makes the Labour Party look to be as split as ever. The bottom.line is this. If we stay in the EU, and a second referendum would surely go that way, then the fiscal proposals of McDonnell will not be possible under EU law. Yes they will (unfortunately from my point of view). You cannot truely nationalise under EU law. Yes you can https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation The courts may say otherwise, depending on interpretation of the law. EU law states that open competition is necessary. It could be that the Government wins any franchise bid, but then they would not be able to give any state subsidy. Taking the railways as an example. Open access is permitted under EU law. That means other operators other than the State would be allowed to apply for and run their own services. This is at the root of the recent French rail strikes, as other operators are claiming this right and the EU has told SNCF to comply. As I see it, this isn't a true "nationalisation" of the railways, as other private operators could apply to run their own services. I assume that this would be the case with power, water etc as well." in terms of the railways... they could in all but name.... all they would have to do is let the the terms of the franchise agreements lapse.... and run them as public entities (like they are doing with the east coast) it would take about 5 years but perfectly doable and perfectly legal... how it would work with water and electricity for example i don't know.... they are allowed to rescue a company if it going bust and is the national interest and security (with is the clause the italian government used with Alitalia) but if the service is running fine then i suppose you would have to buy them out at the going market rate..... | |||
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"I don't think the Chinese would be very happy about it." It's not a given that the Railway Leasing Companies, the majority of which have Chinese money behind them, will play ball with the Government. And isn't the new Hinkley Point Nuclear power station dependent on a lot of Chinese money, with guaranteed returns? A Labour government could make a lot of work for a lot of lawyers! | |||
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"This is nothing to do with overturning Brexit and everything to do with getting the keys to No. 10. It is pretty clear from Starmer and others that Labour will oppose whatever Brexit plan May brings to the Commons. The Tory extremists will have to decide whether to join with Labour and hole the government below the waterline. A General Election becomes inevitable. If somehow May gets something through and survives, Labour positions itself as the party that wanted to let the people decide, especially if the May deal is unpopular. So either way, it is about positioning Labour for a General Election. I do not believe there will be a 2nd referendum. This, that dumping May could mean a GE might focus some of the semi hard line tories and anyone in a marginal seat although with labour upsetting some of their leave voters then who knows what will happen apart from the Euro probably being worth more than the pound for a time.. " The Euro might not survive long enough if Italy has it's dust up with the EU over it's 2019 budget spending | |||
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"I am a Labour voter and also voted remain. The situation is one of total madness. Each party is stabbing each other in the back all the while we are edging ever closer to the leave date.The vote was leave surely this should have meant that all party talks and ideas for the future should have been carried out. Where does it all stop. A vote is a vote then get on with it. After the vote I suggested that the issue be dealt with by an all party committee to get the best deal because whatever happened it would need to at least try and close the divide between voters on both sides.. It was laughed down as people felt happier saying you lost etc than looking at how we should as a nation possibly approach it.. Hey feckin ho.. yes an all party committee made up only of leave supporting MPs would of been better then I think Corbyn would of came out as a leave supporter lol That would have been ideal. " But but but that would mean politicians doing what's best for the country and not themselves | |||
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"I think it's a great idea and finally gives us a clear choice between the parties. Yippee!! Yes it may alienate some traditional Labour voters. But it'll more than make up by attracting people from across the spectrum. I think we just need to get to the point where we realise that there's absolutely nothing Jeremy Corbyn could do to harm our country any more than Brexit would. Then even the most ardent Tory will vote for him nothing he could do to harm the country you must be having a laugh.John McDonnell bankrupt the GLC when in charge of the finances in the mid eighties.
Yes. And bankrupting the country would be an improvement on brexit. At least we could recover from that "This country is already bankrupt  | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?"Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are | |||
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"The problem is that 70% of Labour constituencies voted leave. To renage on the referendum result would be a disaster for Labour. " Depends on how they now feel about it surely? I bet the Labour voters who work at Toyota in Derby might be voting differently if offered a new vote. | |||
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"The problem is that 70% of Labour constituencies voted leave. To renage on the referendum result would be a disaster for Labour. Depends on how they now feel about it surely? I bet the Labour voters who work at Toyota in Derby might be voting differently if offered a new vote. " The crazy thing is I'm certain we could alleviate all the issues that irked people into voting brexit without leaving. They moaned about setting up better trading relations with the rest of the world. But it now turns out the country we're emulating in this is France. So the EU was never holding us back from this. That was our own myopia. In a similar vein you'll probably find other EU states have harsher rules for immigrants that we could implement, perhaps putting UK workers first for jobs or some such stuff. Ironically, under a tory government the public may not get some of these benefits as the tories aren't interested in anything but making a tax haven for their fat cat friends. So maybe Labour could appease its voters by showing them that they're serious in looking to address their grievances. But that this can be done in or out of the EU. It isn't a big deal. Whichever way the public wants to go, these issues can and will be confronted by them | |||
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"The problem is that 70% of Labour constituencies voted leave. To renage on the referendum result would be a disaster for Labour. Depends on how they now feel about it surely? I bet the Labour voters who work at Toyota in Derby might be voting differently if offered a new vote. The crazy thing is I'm certain we could alleviate all the issues that irked people into voting brexit without leaving. They moaned about setting up better trading relations with the rest of the world. But it now turns out the country we're emulating in this is France. So the EU was never holding us back from this. That was our own myopia. In a similar vein you'll probably find other EU states have harsher rules for immigrants that we could implement, perhaps putting UK workers first for jobs or some such stuff. Ironically, under a tory government the public may not get some of these benefits as the tories aren't interested in anything but making a tax haven for their fat cat friends. So maybe Labour could appease its voters by showing them that they're serious in looking to address their grievances. But that this can be done in or out of the EU. It isn't a big deal. Whichever way the public wants to go, these issues can and will be confronted by them "Yes, yes, yes... that is all well and good, but it would mean we can't blame the EU for all our woes! We were of course in control of most of the issues people had, but it would mean we'd have to actually look closer to home and realise it is our own government's fault. And they wouldn't want that now, would they? -Matt | |||
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"The problem is that 70% of Labour constituencies voted leave. To renage on the referendum result would be a disaster for Labour. Depends on how they now feel about it surely? I bet the Labour voters who work at Toyota in Derby might be voting differently if offered a new vote. The crazy thing is I'm certain we could alleviate all the issues that irked people into voting brexit without leaving. They moaned about setting up better trading relations with the rest of the world. But it now turns out the country we're emulating in this is France. So the EU was never holding us back from this. That was our own myopia. In a similar vein you'll probably find other EU states have harsher rules for immigrants that we could implement, perhaps putting UK workers first for jobs or some such stuff. Ironically, under a tory government the public may not get some of these benefits as the tories aren't interested in anything but making a tax haven for their fat cat friends. So maybe Labour could appease its voters by showing them that they're serious in looking to address their grievances. But that this can be done in or out of the EU. It isn't a big deal. Whichever way the public wants to go, these issues can and will be confronted by them
Yes, yes, yes... that is all well and good, but it would mean we can't blame the EU for all our woes! We were of course in control of most of the issues people had, but it would mean we'd have to actually look closer to home and realise it is our own government's fault. And they wouldn't want that now, would they?
-Matt"Well to be honest leaving the EU isn't going to be the panacea which brexiteers have been conned into imagining it. So if all we do is leave the EU, fuck our nation over, and don't resolve the problems people voted to leave over, there'll be even more disenchantment about politics than if we annulled the referendum and stayed. So I do think it's sensible for Labour to start confronting the fact that all of the factors behind the leave vote were down to the tory's project of austerity and nothing to do with the EU. You never know... if they're actually honest and convincing about it they may yet turn their bexiting members heads around | |||
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"The problem is that 70% of Labour constituencies voted leave. To renage on the referendum result would be a disaster for Labour. Depends on how they now feel about it surely? I bet the Labour voters who work at Toyota in Derby might be voting differently if offered a new vote. The crazy thing is I'm certain we could alleviate all the issues that irked people into voting brexit without leaving. They moaned about setting up better trading relations with the rest of the world. But it now turns out the country we're emulating in this is France. So the EU was never holding us back from this. That was our own myopia. In a similar vein you'll probably find other EU states have harsher rules for immigrants that we could implement, perhaps putting UK workers first for jobs or some such stuff. Ironically, under a tory government the public may not get some of these benefits as the tories aren't interested in anything but making a tax haven for their fat cat friends. So maybe Labour could appease its voters by showing them that they're serious in looking to address their grievances. But that this can be done in or out of the EU. It isn't a big deal. Whichever way the public wants to go, these issues can and will be confronted by them
Yes, yes, yes... that is all well and good, but it would mean we can't blame the EU for all our woes! We were of course in control of most of the issues people had, but it would mean we'd have to actually look closer to home and realise it is our own government's fault. And they wouldn't want that now, would they?
-Matt
Well to be honest leaving the EU isn't going to be the panacea which brexiteers have been conned into imagining it. So if all we do is leave the EU, fuck our nation over, and don't resolve the problems people voted to leave over, there'll be even more disenchantment about politics than if we annulled the referendum and stayed.
So I do think it's sensible for Labour to start confronting the fact that all of the factors behind the leave vote were down to the tory's project of austerity and nothing to do with the EU. You never know... if they're actually honest and convincing about it they may yet turn their bexiting members heads around "You mean it's NOT going to be all rainbows and unicorn farts? Damn. I best recalibrate my expectations. But you are right, if Labour could manage to convince people that leaving the EU is not going to solve their woes, then they are on to a winner. But that sounds like a near impossible task. People have been conditioned too long by the tabloids and the current government to believe that everything is the EUs fault. Or immigrants. Or the disabled. -Matt | |||
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"Corbyn and McDonnell must be furious with Kier Starmer, after he inserted a line into his speech, about a second referendum being a possibility. It hadn't been agreed and makes the Labour Party look to be as split as ever. The bottom.line is this. If we stay in the EU, and a second referendum would surely go that way, then the fiscal proposals of McDonnell will not be possible under EU law. Yes they will (unfortunately from my point of view). You cannot truely nationalise under EU law. Yes you can https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation The courts may say otherwise, depending on interpretation of the law. EU law states that open competition is necessary. It could be that the Government wins any franchise bid, but then they would not be able to give any state subsidy. Taking the railways as an example. Open access is permitted under EU law. That means other operators other than the State would be allowed to apply for and run their own services. This is at the root of the recent French rail strikes, as other operators are claiming this right and the EU has told SNCF to comply. As I see it, this isn't a true "nationalisation" of the railways, as other private operators could apply to run their own services. I assume that this would be the case with power, water etc as well. in terms of the railways... they could in all but name.... all they would have to do is let the the terms of the franchise agreements lapse.... and run them as public entities (like they are doing with the east coast) it would take about 5 years but perfectly doable and perfectly legal... how it would work with water and electricity for example i don't know.... they are allowed to rescue a company if it going bust and is the national interest and security (with is the clause the italian government used with Alitalia) but if the service is running fine then i suppose you would have to buy them out at the going market rate....." And rightly so. | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are "The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out". | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are
The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out"."staying in the customs union is not getting out. | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are
The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out".staying in the customs union is not getting out. "Technically it is. The referendum vote was on weather we leave the EU, not the customs union. -Matt | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are
The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out".staying in the customs union is not getting out.
Technically it is. The referendum vote was on weather we leave the EU, not the customs union.
-Matt"I'd have absolutely no problem staying in a customs union. I think myself (and a lot of Labour brexiters) are a lot more concerned with the lack of democratic accountability within the EU, the lack of potential for renationalisation of key utilities and the prospect of European Federalism strengthening the interests of multi national capitalism. I mean, you can keep painting half the country as idiotic racists if you like, but in reality it says more about the mindset of middle class liberals than it does about leave voters. | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are
The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out".staying in the customs union is not getting out.
Technically it is. The referendum vote was on weather we leave the EU, not the customs union.
-Matt
I'd have absolutely no problem staying in a customs union.
I think myself (and a lot of Labour brexiters) are a lot more concerned with the lack of democratic accountability within the EU, the lack of potential for renationalisation of key utilities and the prospect of European Federalism strengthening the interests of multi national capitalism.
I mean, you can keep painting half the country as idiotic racists if you like, but in reality it says more about the mindset of middle class liberals than it does about leave voters."“Lack of potential for renationalisation key utilities”? Do go on... what key utilities do you think we can renationalise when we leave the EU? Do you mean ‘nationalise’ as in run by the government vs private sector? Or do you mean nationalise as in run by *our* govt as opposed to run by the EU as a shared resource? -Matt | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are
The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out".staying in the customs union is not getting out.
Technically it is. The referendum vote was on weather we leave the EU, not the customs union.
-Matt
I'd have absolutely no problem staying in a customs union.
I think myself (and a lot of Labour brexiters) are a lot more concerned with the lack of democratic accountability within the EU, the lack of potential for renationalisation of key utilities and the prospect of European Federalism strengthening the interests of multi national capitalism.
I mean, you can keep painting half the country as idiotic racists if you like, but in reality it says more about the mindset of middle class liberals than it does about leave voters.
“Lack of potential for renationalisation key utilities”?
Do go on... what key utilities do you think we can renationalise when we leave the EU? Do you mean ‘nationalise’ as in run by the government vs private sector? Or do you mean nationalise as in run by *our* govt as opposed to run by the EU as a shared resource?
-Matt"I mean nationalise as run by our government. Many are already "shared resources" insomuch as they are run by EU based entities and the profit diverted there. Think rail, electricity, water. | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are
The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out".staying in the customs union is not getting out.
Technically it is. The referendum vote was on weather we leave the EU, not the customs union.
-Matt
I'd have absolutely no problem staying in a customs union.
I think myself (and a lot of Labour brexiters) are a lot more concerned with the lack of democratic accountability within the EU, the lack of potential for renationalisation of key utilities and the prospect of European Federalism strengthening the interests of multi national capitalism.
I mean, you can keep painting half the country as idiotic racists if you like, but in reality it says more about the mindset of middle class liberals than it does about leave voters."There are indeed respectable left wing anti EU arguments, but the reality is that brexit is driven by the hard right in this country and IS based on arguments that are fundamentally xenophobic. Hence brexit is a victory for those political forces. Thus, it seems to me that, whatever the imperfections of the EU, in the conjuncture we are at, socialists should be against brexit on the grounds that, taking all factors into consideration, the left will be in a stronger position if brexit doesn't happen. It's a classic application of the Marxist dialectic. You don't look at something abstractly and make a judgment whether it is good or bad per se. Things can be good and some circumstances and bad in others. In the UK in 2018, the EU, for the left, is on the side of the angels. | |||
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"The EU is itself moderately left in inclination. That's why the tories hate it so much. That's also why Labour have historically not had such an issue with it. Most of the policies that come from Europe are eminently left leaning. Give the same funds to the tories to spend and they'll fill their pockets with it instead. That's why they're creaming themselves at the thought of getting their mitts on it " The EU is moderately left in inclination?
It's as right as they come - the distinction is between the globalist right and the nationalist right.
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are
The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out".staying in the customs union is not getting out.
Technically it is. The referendum vote was on weather we leave the EU, not the customs union.
-Matt
I'd have absolutely no problem staying in a customs union.
I think myself (and a lot of Labour brexiters) are a lot more concerned with the lack of democratic accountability within the EU, the lack of potential for renationalisation of key utilities and the prospect of European Federalism strengthening the interests of multi national capitalism.
I mean, you can keep painting half the country as idiotic racists if you like, but in reality it says more about the mindset of middle class liberals than it does about leave voters.
There are indeed respectable left wing anti EU arguments, but the reality is that brexit is driven by the hard right in this country and IS based on arguments that are fundamentally xenophobic. Hence brexit is a victory for those political forces.
Thus, it seems to me that, whatever the imperfections of the EU, in the conjuncture we are at, socialists should be against brexit on the grounds that, taking all factors into consideration, the left will be in a stronger position if brexit doesn't happen.
It's a classic application of the Marxist dialectic. You don't look at something abstractly and make a judgment whether it is good or bad per se. Things can be good and some circumstances and bad in others. In the UK in 2018, the EU, for the left, is on the side of the angels. "Really? With it's denationalisation agenda based on "free competition". Is this why France is quietly having to sell off parts of it's health service? I would disagree that brexit is driven by the hard right - that may be the story in the newspapers (both far right and liberal centre). Again, 70% of Labour constituencies voted leave. | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are
The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out".staying in the customs union is not getting out.
Technically it is. The referendum vote was on weather we leave the EU, not the customs union.
-Matt
I'd have absolutely no problem staying in a customs union.
I think myself (and a lot of Labour brexiters) are a lot more concerned with the lack of democratic accountability within the EU, the lack of potential for renationalisation of key utilities and the prospect of European Federalism strengthening the interests of multi national capitalism.
I mean, you can keep painting half the country as idiotic racists if you like, but in reality it says more about the mindset of middle class liberals than it does about leave voters.
There are indeed respectable left wing anti EU arguments, but the reality is that brexit is driven by the hard right in this country and IS based on arguments that are fundamentally xenophobic. Hence brexit is a victory for those political forces.
Thus, it seems to me that, whatever the imperfections of the EU, in the conjuncture we are at, socialists should be against brexit on the grounds that, taking all factors into consideration, the left will be in a stronger position if brexit doesn't happen.
It's a classic application of the Marxist dialectic. You don't look at something abstractly and make a judgment whether it is good or bad per se. Things can be good and some circumstances and bad in others. In the UK in 2018, the EU, for the left, is on the side of the angels.
Really? With it's denationalisation agenda based on "free competition". Is this why France is quietly having to sell off parts of it's health service?
I would disagree that brexit is driven by the hard right - that may be the story in the newspapers (both far right and liberal centre). Again, 70% of Labour constituencies voted leave."Two thirds of labour voters voted remain. You only get a majority of labour constituencies voting leave by adding together the majority of tory voters in those constituencies who voted leave and the minority of Labour voters who did so. The vast majority of politicians and voters who voted leave are right wing. It's ludicrous to deny that. | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ..." I heard the Pope is a satanist too 
Don't be silly Jimi. We've all been on the planet at the same time as you. We've all witnessed the incessant moaning of tories like John Redwood over the years, banging on and on about Europe. All while Labour were utterly silent on the issue. It's clearly a right wing wet dream. Hastened at least in part by the left leaning nature of EU sponsorship of the arts, protection of workers rights, etc | |||
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"Also; it is the job of MPs to represent their constituents. In leave constituencies, this is what they should do. Once again, I simply don't have the level of arrogance that remainers seem to muster to blame their loss on their perception that half the population are racists." Bath and North Somerset voted to Remain, but their MP Rees-Mogg continues to champion Leave, so your argument is facile. | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are
The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out".staying in the customs union is not getting out.
Technically it is. The referendum vote was on weather we leave the EU, not the customs union.
-Matt
I'd have absolutely no problem staying in a customs union.
I think myself (and a lot of Labour brexiters) are a lot more concerned with the lack of democratic accountability within the EU, the lack of potential for renationalisation of key utilities and the prospect of European Federalism strengthening the interests of multi national capitalism.
I mean, you can keep painting half the country as idiotic racists if you like, but in reality it says more about the mindset of middle class liberals than it does about leave voters.
“Lack of potential for renationalisation key utilities”?
Do go on... what key utilities do you think we can renationalise when we leave the EU? Do you mean ‘nationalise’ as in run by the government vs private sector? Or do you mean nationalise as in run by *our* govt as opposed to run by the EU as a shared resource?
-Matt
I mean nationalise as run by our government. Many are already "shared resources" insomuch as they are run by EU based entities and the profit diverted there. Think rail, electricity, water."So, sorry, I’m confused. Why does being a part of the EU prevent us from renationalising any of our utilities? -Matt | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are
The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out".staying in the customs union is not getting out.
Technically it is. The referendum vote was on weather we leave the EU, not the customs union.
-Matt
I'd have absolutely no problem staying in a customs union.
I think myself (and a lot of Labour brexiters) are a lot more concerned with the lack of democratic accountability within the EU, the lack of potential for renationalisation of key utilities and the prospect of European Federalism strengthening the interests of multi national capitalism.
I mean, you can keep painting half the country as idiotic racists if you like, but in reality it says more about the mindset of middle class liberals than it does about leave voters.
“Lack of potential for renationalisation key utilities”?
Do go on... what key utilities do you think we can renationalise when we leave the EU? Do you mean ‘nationalise’ as in run by the government vs private sector? Or do you mean nationalise as in run by *our* govt as opposed to run by the EU as a shared resource?
-Matt
I mean nationalise as run by our government. Many are already "shared resources" insomuch as they are run by EU based entities and the profit diverted there. Think rail, electricity, water.
So, sorry, I’m confused. Why does being a part of the EU prevent us from renationalising any of our utilities?
-Matt"Because the EUs competition regulations will prevent it. This is also why France is having to start selling off it's health service. Also, if you believe that the Germans, French and Dutch will allow us to forcibly buy out their stake in our national infrastructure, you must be mad. | |||
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"Also; it is the job of MPs to represent their constituents. In leave constituencies, this is what they should do. Once again, I simply don't have the level of arrogance that remainers seem to muster to blame their loss on their perception that half the population are racists. Bath and North Somerset voted to Remain, but their MP Rees-Mogg continues to champion Leave, so your argument is facile." Let alone Theresa May and her remain constituency | |||
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"Also; it is the job of MPs to represent their constituents. In leave constituencies, this is what they should do. Once again, I simply don't have the level of arrogance that remainers seem to muster to blame their loss on their perception that half the population are racists. Bath and North Somerset voted to Remain, but their MP Rees-Mogg continues to champion Leave, so your argument is facile." No, it means Rees-Mogg isn't doing his job. Although you could probably pin a blur rosette on an orang utan in that constituency and it would get voted in, so I suppose he feels he is untouchable. Also, the Tories don't have the democratic accountability of Labour, who's constituency party can call a vote of no confidence in them if they feel that they are not representing their interests | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... I heard the Pope is a satanist too
Don't be silly Jimi. We've all been on the planet at the same time as you. We've all witnessed the incessant moaning of tories like John Redwood over the years, banging on and on about Europe. All while Labour were utterly silent on the issue. It's clearly a right wing wet dream. Hastened at least in part by the left leaning nature of EU sponsorship of the arts, protection of workers rights, etc"It was actually the Labour left which started the push to get out of the Common market/EU in the 1970's with people like Tony Benn, Michael Foot and yes Jeremy Corbyn leading the calls to leave. The leave campaign was a multi party campaign and it was a Labour MP Gisela Stuart who started Vote Leave. The Labour leave group led by Labour donor John Mills had several labour MP's campaigning for leave. | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... I heard the Pope is a satanist too
Don't be silly Jimi. We've all been on the planet at the same time as you. We've all witnessed the incessant moaning of tories like John Redwood over the years, banging on and on about Europe. All while Labour were utterly silent on the issue. It's clearly a right wing wet dream. Hastened at least in part by the left leaning nature of EU sponsorship of the arts, protection of workers rights, etc"Suggest you study and read up on Labour eurosceptisicm...they were against us joining in the first place, and up to 1983 were officially against membership of the EU. In 1975 they had a conference, at which they voted 2 to 1 to to leave the European Community. Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Peter Shore, Hugh Gaitskell, Tony Blair, Jeremy Corbyn...amongst many others...have all campaigned long and hard against the EU. And by the way...Europe is not the EU, and the EU is not Europe. | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... I heard the Pope is a satanist too
Don't be silly Jimi. We've all been on the planet at the same time as you. We've all witnessed the incessant moaning of tories like John Redwood over the years, banging on and on about Europe. All while Labour were utterly silent on the issue. It's clearly a right wing wet dream. Hastened at least in part by the left leaning nature of EU sponsorship of the arts, protection of workers rights, etc"And at the time of Redwoods moaning, who was in charge of the Labour Party? | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... I heard the Pope is a satanist too
Don't be silly Jimi. We've all been on the planet at the same time as you. We've all witnessed the incessant moaning of tories like John Redwood over the years, banging on and on about Europe. All while Labour were utterly silent on the issue. It's clearly a right wing wet dream. Hastened at least in part by the left leaning nature of EU sponsorship of the arts, protection of workers rights, etc
Suggest you study and read up on Labour eurosceptisicm...they were against us joining in the first place, and up to 1983 were officially against membership of the EU.
In 1975 they had a conference, at which they voted 2 to 1 to to leave the European Community.
Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Peter Shore, Hugh Gaitskell, Tony Blair, Jeremy Corbyn...amongst many others...have all campaigned long and hard against the EU.
And by the way...Europe is not the EU, and the EU is not Europe.
"Correct - but you left off my favourite politician, Dennis Skinner. | |||
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"No leaver can truly say “this” is what they voted for.... because in the last 3 weeks “this” has gone from the chequers plan... to no deal wto rules... to some sort of Canada plus option this week It’s a cluster fuck.... if we have gone through 3 different plans just in the space of 28 days, how are the Eu suppose to know what to negotiate about? It’s all well and good some people looking at it as being a betrayal of some sort... it is only a betrayal if we all knew what the original plan was... and nobody really has a scooby what the hell that was! " | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... I heard the Pope is a satanist too
Don't be silly Jimi. We've all been on the planet at the same time as you. We've all witnessed the incessant moaning of tories like John Redwood over the years, banging on and on about Europe. All while Labour were utterly silent on the issue. It's clearly a right wing wet dream. Hastened at least in part by the left leaning nature of EU sponsorship of the arts, protection of workers rights, etc
Suggest you study and read up on Labour eurosceptisicm...they were against us joining in the first place, and up to 1983 were officially against membership of the EU.
In 1975 they had a conference, at which they voted 2 to 1 to to leave the European Community.
Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Peter Shore, Hugh Gaitskell, Tony Blair, Jeremy Corbyn...amongst many others...have all campaigned long and hard against the EU.
And by the way...Europe is not the EU, and the EU is not Europe.
Correct - but you left off my favourite politician, Dennis Skinner. "Ahhh I'm not *that* old
In my lifetime it's just been the extreme right wing Fascist nationalist element of the tory party banging on and on and on about it, moaning and moaning, whinging and whining, groaning and nagging, over and over and over like a broken record, salivating over dismantling the NHS, bringing back a two tier education system to divide the masters from the servants and generally just fucking us up the arse
I didn't realise there was a sceptical loony fringe to Labour too | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ..." The percentage of people who voted leave as defined by their vote in the previous general election were as follows Tory 57% Labour 31% Liberal 27% Ukip 93% Thus quite clearly overwhelmingly supported by people who vote for right wing parties. | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... The percentage of people who voted leave as defined by their vote in the previous general election were as follows Tory 57% Labour 31% Liberal 27% Ukip 93% Thus quite clearly overwhelmingly supported by people who vote for right wing parties. " I don't remember being asked? | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... The percentage of people who voted leave as defined by their vote in the previous general election were as follows Tory 57% Labour 31% Liberal 27% Ukip 93% Thus quite clearly overwhelmingly supported by people who vote for right wing parties. " Dennis Skinner voted leave and there’s no one more left wing than him, it doesn’t mean a thing. | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... The percentage of people who voted leave as defined by their vote in the previous general election were as follows Tory 57% Labour 31% Liberal 27% Ukip 93% Thus quite clearly overwhelmingly supported by people who vote for right wing parties. Dennis Skinner voted leave and there’s no one more left wing than him, it doesn’t mean a thing. " It means that most people who support brexit are right wing. Obviously it doesn't mean everyone who supports brexit is right wing. | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... The percentage of people who voted leave as defined by their vote in the previous general election were as follows Tory 57% Labour 31% Liberal 27% Ukip 93% Thus quite clearly overwhelmingly supported by people who vote for right wing parties. Dennis Skinner voted leave and there’s no one more left wing than him, it doesn’t mean a thing. It means that most people who support brexit are right wing. Obviously it doesn't mean everyone who supports brexit is right wing. " I think the closer we get to brexit the more the right want to disown it..As was always going to be the case to be fair.If only we can get a lefty to take the fall for it . | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... The percentage of people who voted leave as defined by their vote in the previous general election were as follows Tory 57% Labour 31% Liberal 27% Ukip 93% Thus quite clearly overwhelmingly supported by people who vote for right wing parties. Dennis Skinner voted leave and there’s no one more left wing than him, it doesn’t mean a thing. It means that most people who support brexit are right wing. Obviously it doesn't mean everyone who supports brexit is right wing. I think the closer we get to brexit the more the right want to disown it..As was always going to be the case to be fair.If only we can get a lefty to take the fall for it . "Not me, not ever! I have absolutely no problem admitting that I hate the EU, and had wanted us to leave it all my adult (and some of my teenaged) life. When the day comes that we are finally free, I will not be allowing any lefty to claim any credit for it. | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... I heard the Pope is a satanist too
Don't be silly Jimi. We've all been on the planet at the same time as you. We've all witnessed the incessant moaning of tories like John Redwood over the years, banging on and on about Europe. All while Labour were utterly silent on the issue. It's clearly a right wing wet dream. Hastened at least in part by the left leaning nature of EU sponsorship of the arts, protection of workers rights, etc
It was actually the Labour left which started the push to get out of the Common market/EU in the 1970's with people like Tony Benn, Michael Foot and yes Jeremy Corbyn leading the calls to leave. The leave campaign was a multi party campaign and it was a Labour MP Gisela Stuart who started Vote Leave. The Labour leave group led by Labour donor John Mills had several labour MP's campaigning for leave. "Just to add the reason why Gisela Stuart chose red and white for the Vote Leave campaign colours was a tip towards the original Eurosceptic Labour movement to get the UK out all those years ago in the 70's. | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... The percentage of people who voted leave as defined by their vote in the previous general election were as follows Tory 57% Labour 31% Liberal 27% Ukip 93% Thus quite clearly overwhelmingly supported by people who vote for right wing parties. Dennis Skinner voted leave and there’s no one more left wing than him, it doesn’t mean a thing. It means that most people who support brexit are right wing. Obviously it doesn't mean everyone who supports brexit is right wing. I think the closer we get to brexit the more the right want to disown it..As was always going to be the case to be fair.If only we can get a lefty to take the fall for it . "It's not about owning or disowning anything. It's just pointing out that the leave campaign was a multi party campaign which had elements of left and right. Even some Greens supported Brexit. | |||
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I don't think labour played very much of a role in it at all. If it did it was behind the scenes. | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... The percentage of people who voted leave as defined by their vote in the previous general election were as follows Tory 57% Labour 31% Liberal 27% Ukip 93% Thus quite clearly overwhelmingly supported by people who vote for right wing parties. Dennis Skinner voted leave and there’s no one more left wing than him, it doesn’t mean a thing. It means that most people who support brexit are right wing. Obviously it doesn't mean everyone who supports brexit is right wing. I think the closer we get to brexit the more the right want to disown it..As was always going to be the case to be fair.If only we can get a lefty to take the fall for it .
It's not about owning or disowning anything. It's just pointing out that the leave campaign was a multi party campaign which had elements of left and right. Even some Greens supported Brexit. "There were a few token Labour mps, but the anti EU campaign was essentially right wing as we're all its leading figures like Farage, Johnson, Davis, Rees Mogg etc etc | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... The percentage of people who voted leave as defined by their vote in the previous general election were as follows Tory 57% Labour 31% Liberal 27% Ukip 93% Thus quite clearly overwhelmingly supported by people who vote for right wing parties. Dennis Skinner voted leave and there’s no one more left wing than him, it doesn’t mean a thing. It means that most people who support brexit are right wing. Obviously it doesn't mean everyone who supports brexit is right wing. I think the closer we get to brexit the more the right want to disown it..As was always going to be the case to be fair.If only we can get a lefty to take the fall for it .
It's not about owning or disowning anything. It's just pointing out that the leave campaign was a multi party campaign which had elements of left and right. Even some Greens supported Brexit.
There were a few token Labour mps, but the anti EU campaign was essentially right wing as we're all its leading figures like Farage, Johnson, Davis, Rees Mogg etc etc "These guys aren't really lefties last time I looked ,but this is the game the right play .They paint a picture that brexit has nothing to do with the extremes of the right .It has cross Party support.Yet the leaders of the brexit movement are as far to the right in British politics as you can go and get elected. . | |||
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"The dumb thing about this thread is that we were all there. It's like arguing that last winter never happened. We all saw the neo-nazi racism-lite fervour of UKIP blowing wind into the sails of the extreme loony right wing of the tory party and provoking the referendum. We were there. We saw it all play out before our eyes" It seems to me you're not particularly well educated on this subject if you didn't even known a very large chunk of the Labour party supported getting the UK out of the EU in the 70's and 80's. You didn't have to be around at the time either, you see we have these things called history books which it's all logged in. Just a basic bit of research into it would have told you all this. | |||
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"I think it's fair to say that the extreme right wing, in the form of people like Redwood and the nationalistic neo-nazi UKIP party, managed to whip up broad support for brexit throughout the country. And the EU helped too... bloomin plonkers I don't think labour played very much of a role in it at all. If it did it was behind the scenes. "What happened is that liberals like you didn’t listen to what ordinary working class people have been saying for years, in frustration people voted Brexit, Labour ignored its own people. This is the result and still you don’t get it, people didn’t have a voice, the silent majority has spoken. Suck it up and respect the result. | |||
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"I think it's fair to say that the extreme right wing, in the form of people like Redwood and the nationalistic neo-nazi UKIP party, managed to whip up broad support for brexit throughout the country. And the EU helped too... bloomin plonkers I don't think labour played very much of a role in it at all. If it did it was behind the scenes.
What happened is that liberals like you didn’t listen to what ordinary working class people have been saying for years, in frustration people voted Brexit, Labour ignored its own people. This is the result and still you don’t get it, people didn’t have a voice, the silent majority has spoken. Suck it up and respect the result. " | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are
The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out".staying in the customs union is not getting out. "But it is legally leaving the EU (Turkey is in the customs union but not in the EU). So, when you said "I for one don't care how [we get out of the EU] just get out" you didn't mean it because you're now saying that you do actually care and leaving the EU but staying in the customs union would not be acceptable to you. If the leave deal is leave but stay in the/a customs union/agreement/facilitation would you not want some way to register that that is not what you voted for when you voted leave. | |||
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"I think it's fair to say that the extreme right wing, in the form of people like Redwood and the nationalistic neo-nazi UKIP party, managed to whip up broad support for brexit throughout the country. And the EU helped too... bloomin plonkers I don't think labour played very much of a role in it at all. If it did it was behind the scenes.
What happened is that liberals like you didn’t listen to what ordinary working class people have been saying for years, in frustration people voted Brexit, Labour ignored its own people. This is the result and still you don’t get it, people didn’t have a voice, the silent majority has spoken. Suck it up and respect the result. "69% of Labour voters voted to remain. | |||
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"So back to the original question..... If the ERG group of hardline brexit Tory will vote against the government to push their version of brexit And the Labour Party will vote against the government to push forward their version of brexit Then what is the difference? where was that question? But either way we leave deal or no deal I get what I voted for. Why do you find it so hard that leavers voted to leave and I for one don't care how just get out.
So you would be happy with just leaving the EU but staying in the customs union and/or single market?
Hell no, it's a worse situation than being in the EU as we are
The question was directed at CostaFun because it was he who said "I for one don't care how [we get out] just get out".staying in the customs union is not getting out.
But it is legally leaving the EU (Turkey is in the customs union but not in the EU). So, when you said "I for one don't care how [we get out of the EU] just get out" you didn't mean it because you're now saying that you do actually care and leaving the EU but staying in the customs union would not be acceptable to you. If the leave deal is leave but stay in the/a customs union/agreement/facilitation would you not want some way to register that that is not what you voted for when you voted leave."The referendum was a binary choice. Come OUT or stay IN. There was no provision for a "sliding scale" of out or in. | |||
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"Is it really relevant as to whether BREXIT is originally an extreme right wing or extreme left wing idea? The fact is it's an extremely stupid idea and, whether you're from the right of centre or left of centre, it must be stopped before it does any more harm. After we've stopped or reversed BREXIT we can pick over the bones of whether the extreme right or extreme left was more to blame than the other." It kind of does matter as it shows the post EU future we are likely to have. Given brexit is driven by the hard right, if they succeed in their aims, it will be a huge political victory for them. Hence by view that anyone on the left, even if they are not great fans of the EU, should be against brexit. | |||
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"Is it really relevant as to whether BREXIT is originally an extreme right wing or extreme left wing idea? The fact is it's an extremely stupid idea and, whether you're from the right of centre or left of centre, it must be stopped before it does any more harm. After we've stopped or reversed BREXIT we can pick over the bones of whether the extreme right or extreme left was more to blame than the other. It kind of does matter as it shows the post EU future we are likely to have. Given brexit is driven by the hard right, if they succeed in their aims, it will be a huge political victory for them. Hence by view that anyone on the left, even if they are not great fans of the EU, should be against brexit. " It won't be long before the Tories get us back in, if they let us leave at all. I'm sure long term they want us in with no power, and no veto. We'll all be living on the breadline while they flood our shores with poorly paid slaves, and the fat cats will grow fatter... | |||
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"Is it really relevant as to whether BREXIT is originally an extreme right wing or extreme left wing idea? The fact is it's an extremely stupid idea and, whether you're from the right of centre or left of centre, it must be stopped before it does any more harm. After we've stopped or reversed BREXIT we can pick over the bones of whether the extreme right or extreme left was more to blame than the other. It kind of does matter as it shows the post EU future we are likely to have. Given brexit is driven by the hard right, if they succeed in their aims, it will be a huge political victory for them. Hence by view that anyone on the left, even if they are not great fans of the EU, should be against brexit. " This. A vote for brexit was a vote for right wing nationalism and a vote against enlightened left leaning liberal internationalism. Agreeably the EU wasn't that perfect enlightened body. But it was part of a process towards peaceful globalism and away from warring empires. It was born in the trenches of WWII and promoted by the French Resistance. We were supposed to get involved and make it into the enlightened thing it hoped to be. Not join it late, then undermine it until we left.
There is no future in the nation state. It's all about joining together the small and local, townships and regions, with big global cooperation for the betterment of everyone. The right hates this because it sounds like a descent into communism. Instead it's just humanity growing up and learning to work together... Or it was until a load of misled people pinned all the woes of austerity Britain on the EU and sewed seeds of disarray disunion and trade war. Now we're just heading back to the fascist Nationalist wet dream of might is right and the battle of empires | |||
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"I think it's fair to say that the extreme right wing, in the form of people like Redwood and the nationalistic neo-nazi UKIP party, managed to whip up broad support for brexit throughout the country. And the EU helped too... bloomin plonkers I don't think labour played very much of a role in it at all. If it did it was behind the scenes.
What happened is that liberals like you didn’t listen to what ordinary working class people have been saying for years, in frustration people voted Brexit, Labour ignored its own people. This is the result and still you don’t get it, people didn’t have a voice, the silent majority has spoken. Suck it up and respect the result.
69% of Labour voters voted to remain. "Because Labour are now for liberals, not the left, there is a difference, the people I’m talking about abandoned that party years ago, when they weren’t being listened to. | |||
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"I think it's fair to say that the extreme right wing, in the form of people like Redwood and the nationalistic neo-nazi UKIP party, managed to whip up broad support for brexit throughout the country. And the EU helped too... bloomin plonkers I don't think labour played very much of a role in it at all. If it did it was behind the scenes.
What happened is that liberals like you didn’t listen to what ordinary working class people have been saying for years, in frustration people voted Brexit, Labour ignored its own people. This is the result and still you don’t get it, people didn’t have a voice, the silent majority has spoken. Suck it up and respect the result.
69% of Labour voters voted to remain.
Because Labour are now for liberals, not the left, there is a difference, the people I’m talking about abandoned that party years ago, when they weren’t being listened to. "You've gotta feel sorry for the liberal democrats. All the people who should be voting for them have gone to labour to vote for a socialist! Lol! long live the revolution comrades! | |||
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"The vast majority of politicians who voted remain are right wing. It would be ludicrous to deny that ... I heard the Pope is a satanist too
Don't be silly Jimi. We've all been on the planet at the same time as you. We've all witnessed the incessant moaning of tories like John Redwood over the years, banging on and on about Europe. All while Labour were utterly silent on the issue. It's clearly a right wing wet dream. Hastened at least in part by the left leaning nature of EU sponsorship of the arts, protection of workers rights, etc
Suggest you study and read up on Labour eurosceptisicm...they were against us joining in the first place, and up to 1983 were officially against membership of the EU.
In 1975 they had a conference, at which they voted 2 to 1 to to leave the European Community.
Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Peter Shore, Hugh Gaitskell, Tony Blair, Jeremy Corbyn...amongst many others...have all campaigned long and hard against the EU.
And by the way...Europe is not the EU, and the EU is not Europe.
Correct - but you left off my favourite politician, Dennis Skinner.
Ahhh I'm not *that* old
In my lifetime it's just been the extreme right wing Fascist nationalist element of the tory party banging on and on and on about it, moaning and moaning, whinging and whining, groaning and nagging, over and over and over like a broken record, salivating over dismantling the NHS, bringing back a two tier education system to divide the masters from the servants and generally just fucking us up the arse
I didn't realise there was a sceptical loony fringe to Labour too "Yes, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. But you're still not too young to know that Europe is not the EU, and the EU is not Europe. | |||
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"The dumb thing about this thread is that we were all there. It's like arguing that last winter never happened. We all saw the neo-nazi racism-lite fervour of UKIP blowing wind into the sails of the extreme loony right wing of the tory party and provoking the referendum. We were there. We saw it all play out before our eyes" Like you said on another post....you're too young. Try reading up about the National Front, Column 18 and others to find out about neo-nazis and far right wing. | |||
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"Is it really relevant as to whether BREXIT is originally an extreme right wing or extreme left wing idea? The fact is it's an extremely stupid idea and, whether you're from the right of centre or left of centre, it must be stopped before it does any more harm. After we've stopped or reversed BREXIT we can pick over the bones of whether the extreme right or extreme left was more to blame than the other. It kind of does matter as it shows the post EU future we are likely to have. Given brexit is driven by the hard right, if they succeed in their aims, it will be a huge political victory for them. Hence by view that anyone on the left, even if they are not great fans of the EU, should be against brexit. This. A vote for brexit was a vote for right wing nationalism and a vote against enlightened left leaning liberal internationalism. Agreeably the EU wasn't that perfect enlightened body. But it was part of a process towards peaceful globalism and away from warring empires. It was born in the trenches of WWII and promoted by the French Resistance. We were supposed to get involved and make it into the enlightened thing it hoped to be. Not join it late, then undermine it until we left.
There is no future in the nation state. It's all about joining together the small and local, townships and regions, with big global cooperation for the betterment of everyone. The right hates this because it sounds like a descent into communism. Instead it's just humanity growing up and learning to work together... Or it was until a load of misled people pinned all the woes of austerity Britain on the EU and sewed seeds of disarray disunion and trade war. Now we're just heading back to the fascist Nationalist wet dream of might is right and the battle of empires"You are saying that deeper federalism and the increasing influence of fewer, multinational corporations will somehow be good for the workers of Europe? | |||
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"Is it really relevant as to whether BREXIT is originally an extreme right wing or extreme left wing idea? The fact is it's an extremely stupid idea and, whether you're from the right of centre or left of centre, it must be stopped before it does any more harm. After we've stopped or reversed BREXIT we can pick over the bones of whether the extreme right or extreme left was more to blame than the other. It kind of does matter as it shows the post EU future we are likely to have. Given brexit is driven by the hard right, if they succeed in their aims, it will be a huge political victory for them. Hence by view that anyone on the left, even if they are not great fans of the EU, should be against brexit. This. A vote for brexit was a vote for right wing nationalism and a vote against enlightened left leaning liberal internationalism. Agreeably the EU wasn't that perfect enlightened body. But it was part of a process towards peaceful globalism and away from warring empires. It was born in the trenches of WWII and promoted by the French Resistance. We were supposed to get involved and make it into the enlightened thing it hoped to be. Not join it late, then undermine it until we left.
There is no future in the nation state. It's all about joining together the small and local, townships and regions, with big global cooperation for the betterment of everyone. The right hates this because it sounds like a descent into communism. Instead it's just humanity growing up and learning to work together... Or it was until a load of misled people pinned all the woes of austerity Britain on the EU and sewed seeds of disarray disunion and trade war. Now we're just heading back to the fascist Nationalist wet dream of might is right and the battle of empires
You are saying that deeper federalism and the increasing influence of fewer, multinational corporations will somehow be good for the workers of Europe?"It did read like a Tory manifesto... | |||
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"Is it really relevant as to whether BREXIT is originally an extreme right wing or extreme left wing idea? The fact is it's an extremely stupid idea and, whether you're from the right of centre or left of centre, it must be stopped before it does any more harm. After we've stopped or reversed BREXIT we can pick over the bones of whether the extreme right or extreme left was more to blame than the other. It kind of does matter as it shows the post EU future we are likely to have. Given brexit is driven by the hard right, if they succeed in their aims, it will be a huge political victory for them. Hence by view that anyone on the left, even if they are not great fans of the EU, should be against brexit. This. A vote for brexit was a vote for right wing nationalism and a vote against enlightened left leaning liberal internationalism. Agreeably the EU wasn't that perfect enlightened body. But it was part of a process towards peaceful globalism and away from warring empires. It was born in the trenches of WWII and promoted by the French Resistance. We were supposed to get involved and make it into the enlightened thing it hoped to be. Not join it late, then undermine it until we left.
There is no future in the nation state. It's all about joining together the small and local, townships and regions, with big global cooperation for the betterment of everyone. The right hates this because it sounds like a descent into communism. Instead it's just humanity growing up and learning to work together... Or it was until a load of misled people pinned all the woes of austerity Britain on the EU and sewed seeds of disarray disunion and trade war. Now we're just heading back to the fascist Nationalist wet dream of might is right and the battle of empires"Trench warfare was a thing if the past in WW2. | |||
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"Is it really relevant as to whether BREXIT is originally an extreme right wing or extreme left wing idea? The fact is it's an extremely stupid idea and, whether you're from the right of centre or left of centre, it must be stopped before it does any more harm. After we've stopped or reversed BREXIT we can pick over the bones of whether the extreme right or extreme left was more to blame than the other. It kind of does matter as it shows the post EU future we are likely to have. Given brexit is driven by the hard right, if they succeed in their aims, it will be a huge political victory for them. Hence by view that anyone on the left, even if they are not great fans of the EU, should be against brexit. This. A vote for brexit was a vote for right wing nationalism and a vote against enlightened left leaning liberal internationalism. Agreeably the EU wasn't that perfect enlightened body. But it was part of a process towards peaceful globalism and away from warring empires. It was born in the trenches of WWII and promoted by the French Resistance. We were supposed to get involved and make it into the enlightened thing it hoped to be. Not join it late, then undermine it until we left.
There is no future in the nation state. It's all about joining together the small and local, townships and regions, with big global cooperation for the betterment of everyone. The right hates this because it sounds like a descent into communism. Instead it's just humanity growing up and learning to work together... Or it was until a load of misled people pinned all the woes of austerity Britain on the EU and sewed seeds of disarray disunion and trade war. Now we're just heading back to the fascist Nationalist wet dream of might is right and the battle of empires
You are saying that deeper federalism and the increasing influence of fewer, multinational corporations will somehow be good for the workers of Europe?
It did read like a Tory manifesto..."I don't even think the Tory manifesto is as openly in the thrall of the global multinational as that post was... | |||
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"Is it really relevant as to whether BREXIT is originally an extreme right wing or extreme left wing idea? The fact is it's an extremely stupid idea and, whether you're from the right of centre or left of centre, it must be stopped before it does any more harm. After we've stopped or reversed BREXIT we can pick over the bones of whether the extreme right or extreme left was more to blame than the other. It kind of does matter as it shows the post EU future we are likely to have. Given brexit is driven by the hard right, if they succeed in their aims, it will be a huge political victory for them. Hence by view that anyone on the left, even if they are not great fans of the EU, should be against brexit. This. A vote for brexit was a vote for right wing nationalism and a vote against enlightened left leaning liberal internationalism. Agreeably the EU wasn't that perfect enlightened body. But it was part of a process towards peaceful globalism and away from warring empires. It was born in the trenches of WWII and promoted by the French Resistance. We were supposed to get involved and make it into the enlightened thing it hoped to be. Not join it late, then undermine it until we left.
There is no future in the nation state. It's all about joining together the small and local, townships and regions, with big global cooperation for the betterment of everyone. The right hates this because it sounds like a descent into communism. Instead it's just humanity growing up and learning to work together... Or it was until a load of misled people pinned all the woes of austerity Britain on the EU and sewed seeds of disarray disunion and trade war. Now we're just heading back to the fascist Nationalist wet dream of might is right and the battle of empires
Trench warfare was a thing if the past in WW2."As would the NHS if we became that integrated with the EU etc. Why do you think the Tories are trying to make it easier to privatise? This is how the Tories have won. They've managed to get people who think they're left of centre support their policies. | |||
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"Is it really relevant as to whether BREXIT is originally an extreme right wing or extreme left wing idea? The fact is it's an extremely stupid idea and, whether you're from the right of centre or left of centre, it must be stopped before it does any more harm. After we've stopped or reversed BREXIT we can pick over the bones of whether the extreme right or extreme left was more to blame than the other. It kind of does matter as it shows the post EU future we are likely to have. Given brexit is driven by the hard right, if they succeed in their aims, it will be a huge political victory for them. Hence by view that anyone on the left, even if they are not great fans of the EU, should be against brexit. This. A vote for brexit was a vote for right wing nationalism and a vote against enlightened left leaning liberal internationalism. Agreeably the EU wasn't that perfect enlightened body. But it was part of a process towards peaceful globalism and away from warring empires. It was born in the trenches of WWII and promoted by the French Resistance. We were supposed to get involved and make it into the enlightened thing it hoped to be. Not join it late, then undermine it until we left.
There is no future in the nation state. It's all about joining together the small and local, townships and regions, with big global cooperation for the betterment of everyone. The right hates this because it sounds like a descent into communism. Instead it's just humanity growing up and learning to work together... Or it was until a load of misled people pinned all the woes of austerity Britain on the EU and sewed seeds of disarray disunion and trade war. Now we're just heading back to the fascist Nationalist wet dream of might is right and the battle of empires
Trench warfare was a thing if the past in WW2.
As would the NHS if we became that integrated with the EU etc. Why do you think the Tories are trying to make it easier to privatise?
This is how the Tories have won. They've managed to get people who think they're left of centre support their policies. "And people think I'm mental when I tell them that New Labour existed to destroy the Labour movement in the UK. | |||
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"Is it really relevant as to whether BREXIT is originally an extreme right wing or extreme left wing idea? The fact is it's an extremely stupid idea and, whether you're from the right of centre or left of centre, it must be stopped before it does any more harm. After we've stopped or reversed BREXIT we can pick over the bones of whether the extreme right or extreme left was more to blame than the other. It kind of does matter as it shows the post EU future we are likely to have. Given brexit is driven by the hard right, if they succeed in their aims, it will be a huge political victory for them. Hence by view that anyone on the left, even if they are not great fans of the EU, should be against brexit. This. A vote for brexit was a vote for right wing nationalism and a vote against enlightened left leaning liberal internationalism. Agreeably the EU wasn't that perfect enlightened body. But it was part of a process towards peaceful globalism and away from warring empires. It was born in the trenches of WWII and promoted by the French Resistance. We were supposed to get involved and make it into the enlightened thing it hoped to be. Not join it late, then undermine it until we left.
There is no future in the nation state. It's all about joining together the small and local, townships and regions, with big global cooperation for the betterment of everyone. The right hates this because it sounds like a descent into communism. Instead it's just humanity growing up and learning to work together... Or it was until a load of misled people pinned all the woes of austerity Britain on the EU and sewed seeds of disarray disunion and trade war. Now we're just heading back to the fascist Nationalist wet dream of might is right and the battle of empires
Trench warfare was a thing if the past in WW2.
As would the NHS if we became that integrated with the EU etc. Why do you think the Tories are trying to make it easier to privatise?
This is how the Tories have won. They've managed to get people who think they're left of centre support their policies.
And people think I'm mental when I tell them that New Labour existed to destroy the Labour movement in the UK. "It was when my union was telling us to accept ridiculous changes to our terms and conditions for a 1.5% pay rise. I realised they were no longer on our side either. All in the pocket of new labour, working hard for the Tories. | |||
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Did I mention all the racists were rounded up years ago at the end of the 70s when the PC brigade took over. | |||
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"The take away from this thread is there is no far right agenda with brexit and brexit isn't about immigration for the millionth time we just need to address the legitimate grievances the honest and good and decent brexiters have about all the bloody foreigners here. Now move along ,there is nothing to see here ,there are no racist brexiters it's all made up .Made up by liberals and , we are all in it together.Suck it up we are leaving and your all tarred with the same brush .
Did I mention all the racists were rounded up years ago at the end of the 70s when the PC brigade took over. "See? This is exactly the sort of thing. There can't be ligitimate left wing concerns about the EU because some racists also didn't like the EU, ergo, everyone who voted BREXIT is a racist and I can go away feeling smug because I voted remain, and therefore can't be anything like all those nasty racists. | |||
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"The take away from this thread is there is no far right agenda with brexit and brexit isn't about immigration for the millionth time we just need to address the legitimate grievances the honest and good and decent brexiters have about all the bloody foreigners here. Now move along ,there is nothing to see here ,there are no racist brexiters it's all made up .Made up by liberals and , we are all in it together.Suck it up we are leaving and your all tarred with the same brush .
Did I mention all the racists were rounded up years ago at the end of the 70s when the PC brigade took over. "I don't think anyone's saying that there arn't racist brexiters, but i also think its foolish to paint anyone who voted leave as racist. | |||
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