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Operation fear
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"I bet this turns out to be more scaremongering.....just another millennium bug that doesn't pan out." The millenium bug *did* pan out. A large number of people spent quite some time working on checking and upgrading software to ensure that things went smoothly. The fact that you think it was a non-issue is due to the hard work of people (myself included!) who ensured that things would not grind to a halt. -Matt | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? " The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. | |||
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"The EU and remoaners will try anything to stop us from leaving. Once one country leaves the EU looses it power as more countries will try to leave. Ignore the fear and be happy" 
This! | |||
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"North Korea wtf no scaremongering on here then lmao" Show me another country in the world without a single trade agreement to its name? | |||
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"i recall certain people in here dismissing the idea when the EU published its own guidance for member states earlier this year. The licences issued by the EU to operators in the UK would no longer be valid after March 29. Total rubbish, they said. Now the UK Government is saying the same thing. Welcome to Little Britain, 2nd only to North Korea in its isolation. " If you hate England so much, why don’t you leave? There are still other nations that are in the EU. For now... | |||
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" If you hate England so much, why don’t you leave? There are still other nations that are in the EU. For now..." Have you been reading Mein Kampf again? | |||
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" If you hate England so much, why don’t you leave? There are still other nations that are in the EU. For now... Have you been reading Mein Kampf again?" You could always lend him your copy of Mein Eu!  | |||
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" If you hate England so much, why don’t you leave? There are still other nations that are in the EU. For now... Have you been reading Mein Kampf again? You could always lend him your copy of Mein Eu! "Yeah (s)he could, fortunately I have enough bog roll in my house. Pmsl ?? | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. " if they are enshrined in law how come the UK can say we will respect thier qualifications and they can't? Of course they can they are just being bloody minded and trying to punish the UK for having the audacity to leave thier copy little club. | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. if they are enshrined in law how come the UK can say we will respect thier qualifications and they can't? Of course they can they are just being bloody minded and trying to punish the UK for having the audacity to leave thier copy little club." Um... AGAIN... this is getting so boring pointing this out. What you are asking for is commonly known as 'a deal'. That is fine. These are the scenarios laid out if we *don't* agree on a deal. Why is this so difficult to grasp? -Matt | |||
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"I bet this turns out to be more scaremongering.....just another millennium bug that doesn't pan out." That is exactly what this is...scarmongering! The EU have already said in the event of no deal they would activate their own contingency plans to keep planes flying into and out of the UK. It was reported on the BBC news channel earlier today. The UK have also said they would keep the planes flying. So the scenario of planes being grounded is just another remainer myth that has been well and truly busted. | |||
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"North Korea wtf no scaremongering on here then lmao Show me another country in the world without a single trade agreement to its name? " Not sure about N Korea... Mauritania , trade solely under WTO apparently. Never heard of them before but there you have it. | |||
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"It will all be ok. (Realistic remainer here) " If it all pans out good then brilliant, if it all starts to go to shit for people then that's the price enough people thought was worth paying to leave, that's if we leave properly at all, which I think would be the worst outcome, neither fully in or fully out. We need an outcome that at least one side bloody voted for. | |||
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" If you hate England so much, why don’t you leave? There are still other nations that are in the EU. For now... Have you been reading Mein Kampf again?" Not sure what that book has to do with your argument.....just because someone says that if you don't agree with what is now inevitable then perhaps you should look elsewhere....they are not saying you should be persecuted, forcibly deported or put into a camp. Respectfully, "lost the plot" comes to mind. | |||
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"Is turning into operation reality !!! Planes might be grounded ?? And now it's the government saying it the same lying pricks that said it was operation fear " The chances of planes being grounded are non existent . We are still members of Europe , just trading on different terms. I do not see any slump in the share prices of any of the budget airlines . I booked flights to fly to France next year and am satisfied being all manner of doubt that there is no possibility of flights being grounded . The concept of laughable as is all the other scare mongering on this forum . | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. " They are happy to keep taking money from us for things that had been agreed in the future, yet they are not prepared to do the same things WE signed up to as members. Seems THEY want to have their cake and eat it too. | |||
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"It must be a very sad life looking for things to worry about.We all know that planes won't stop flying Spain,Greece,Italy , Portugal etc all lose millions of tourists Yeah sure they are going to go along with that.Bet we don't see one of these doom and gloom merchants after 1st April." Excellent post. A positive can do attitude  | |||
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"I wonder if it will affect Royal airforce pilots?" Of course not you bloody lefty.We can bomb Brussels or any other totalitarian regime on a whim,we are British . | |||
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" if they are enshrined in law how come the UK can say we will respect thier qualifications and they can't? Of course they can they are just being bloody minded and trying to punish the UK for having the audacity to leave thier copy little club." Because the single market is governed by European law. And by withdrawing from the single market, the UK also withdraws from the governance of EU law. Hence, licences issued under EU law are no longer valid in the UK because the UK is no longer the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. The single market becomes a single market of 27 countries, not 28. The UK becomes a "third country" under EU law, the same as Russia, China or the USA. Welcome to the world of negotiating international trade agreements. No-one out there is queuing up to give you any favours. | |||
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"I wonder if it will affect Royal airforce pilots? Of course not you bloody lefty.We can bomb Brussels or any other totalitarian regime on a whim,we are British ." You misunderstand me. RAF pilots could fly some airliners. In fact civilian airline pilots could become RAF reservists, those who arn't already of course. | |||
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"I bet this turns out to be more scaremongering.....just another millennium bug that doesn't pan out. That is exactly what this is...scarmongering! The EU have already said in the event of no deal they would activate their own contingency plans to keep planes flying into and out of the UK. It was reported on the BBC news channel earlier today. The UK have also said they would keep the planes flying. So the scenario of planes being grounded is just another remainer myth that has been well and truly busted. " This ant remainers talking it's the uk government | |||
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"i am having de ja vu here... because did me and matt basically explain to people why probably for at least the first few weeks after brexit why a lot of planes would be grounded.... again... i feel like a record... article 50... paragraph 3 3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period. no deal mean no agreements..... this means the UK will no longer be a part of the European Aviation Safety Authority (EASA) for a place to fly thru the territory of another country it needs to have ratified safety and maintenance records.... the UK can unilaterly recoginised everyone elses if they want.... on march 30th the UK will have no agreements with anyone.... no agreements mean no place can fly.... that is not EU law, that is INTERNATIONAL law... think of it like a car... you can't drive if you don't have insurance, you can't get insurance if you don't have an MOT, and someone needs to recognise the MOT that is being done!!! same will apply to ferries...... same will apply to trains going thru the channel tunnel...... same will apply to coaches going to/from europe...... I don't like to give michael o'leary at ryanair much credit... but he pointed this out to people basically the day after article 50 was envoked!" we shall see enjoy your sleepless nights worrying. | |||
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" If you hate England so much, why don’t you leave? There are still other nations that are in the EU. For now... Have you been reading Mein Kampf again? Not sure what that book has to do with your argument.....just because someone says that if you don't agree with what is now inevitable then perhaps you should look elsewhere....they are not saying you should be persecuted, forcibly deported or put into a camp. Respectfully, "lost the plot" comes to mind. " Study the history and you'll see how it keeps repeating. Hitler first invited Jews living in Germany to leave. You'll have a better life in Palestine, he told them. (This was what Ken Livingstone was alluding to when he clumsily described Hitler as a Zionist) Over time, the rhetoric escalated. The persecution. The violence. The arrest and forced deportation. And finally genocide. The Holocaust did not begin with gas chambers. It started with rhetoric, with invitations to leave followed by a gradual process of dehumanisation that allowed the German population to turn a blind eye to what was happening in their midst. The idea that some citizens are superior and some are sub-human. It starts with the invitation to leave of your own free will. | |||
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" If you hate England so much, why don’t you leave? There are still other nations that are in the EU. For now... Have you been reading Mein Kampf again? Not sure what that book has to do with your argument.....just because someone says that if you don't agree with what is now inevitable then perhaps you should look elsewhere....they are not saying you should be persecuted, forcibly deported or put into a camp. Respectfully, "lost the plot" comes to mind. Study the history and you'll see how it keeps repeating. Hitler first invited Jews living in Germany to leave. You'll have a better life in Palestine, he told them. (This was what Ken Livingstone was alluding to when he clumsily described Hitler as a Zionist) Over time, the rhetoric escalated. The persecution. The violence. The arrest and forced deportation. And finally genocide. The Holocaust did not begin with gas chambers. It started with rhetoric, with invitations to leave followed by a gradual process of dehumanisation that allowed the German population to turn a blind eye to what was happening in their midst. The idea that some citizens are superior and some are sub-human. It starts with the invitation to leave of your own free will. " Incredible that you compare the conditions in our multicultural, inclusive 21st century society to the genesis of the 3rd Reich. Who is being persecuted as a religious or cultural minority....? | |||
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"So if the plane isn't registered here its ok to fly?" this is where it gets complicated the answer is yes.... but! that would means it would have to be a non uk carrier (based more that 50% elsewhere so for example it couldn't be BA or Virgin or BMI) ... and it can not running a service which is in a "codesharing" agreement (so for example BA are part of the IAG, so for example couldn't be Iberia) .... and is not being used as a stopover on the EU/US openskies agreement and a 3rd country that is a party (which again, the UK would no longer be a party to!) from example... india - london - new york, or london - singapore - sydney (since singapore is a 3rd country party to the openskies agreement) and all of this is based on if a plane need absolutely no maintenance in the UK (so if it blows something here it may not be ratified for leaving...) | |||
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"Another thing hidden in the detail. It’s not just uk and Eu deals which need to be negotiated. It’s uk and any other countries who has signed a deal with the Eu. If we’re not part of the Eu we have no arrangements with them... It’s gonna be busy !" Good time to be a civil servant i guess. | |||
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"i am having de ja vu here... because did me and matt basically explain to people why probably for at least the first few weeks after brexit why a lot of planes would be grounded.... again... i feel like a record... article 50... paragraph 3 3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period. no deal mean no agreements..... this means the UK will no longer be a part of the European Aviation Safety Authority (EASA) for a place to fly thru the territory of another country it needs to have ratified safety and maintenance records.... the UK can unilaterly recoginised everyone elses if they want.... on march 30th the UK will have no agreements with anyone.... no agreements mean no place can fly.... that is not EU law, that is INTERNATIONAL law... think of it like a car... you can't drive if you don't have insurance, you can't get insurance if you don't have an MOT, and someone needs to recognise the MOT that is being done!!! same will apply to ferries...... same will apply to trains going thru the channel tunnel...... same will apply to coaches going to/from europe...... I don't like to give michael o'leary at ryanair much credit... but he pointed this out to people basically the day after article 50 was envoked!" And as I already told you the EU have already stated they will activate their own contingency plans to keep planes flying in the event of no deal. Although I'm sure you're already aware of this if you watched any of the news stations on telly today? | |||
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"So if the plane isn't registered here its ok to fly? this is where it gets complicated the answer is yes.... but! that would means it would have to be a non uk carrier (based more that 50% elsewhere so for example it couldn't be BA or Virgin or BMI) ... and it can not running a service which is in a "codesharing" agreement (so for example BA are part of the IAG, so for example couldn't be Iberia) .... and is not being used as a stopover on the EU/US openskies agreement and a 3rd country that is a party (which again, the UK would no longer be a party to!) from example... india - london - new york, or london - singapore - sydney (since singapore is a 3rd country party to the openskies agreement) and all of this is based on if a plane need absolutely no maintenance in the UK (so if it blows something here it may not be ratified for leaving...)" Could be the end of the uk supporting anti Russian air patrols over the black sea etc. | |||
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"I wonder if it will affect Royal airforce pilots?" Well the UK and Rep of Ireland have a deal in place that the RAF will protect Irish airspace if it's invaded or encroached into by the Russians for example. If Leo Varadkar wants to stop British commercial planes flying in his airspace he can kiss goodbye to the protection of the RAF too. | |||
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" Could be the end of the uk supporting anti Russian air patrols over the black sea etc. " no.... the agreements only apply to civilian aircraft | |||
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"I wonder if it will affect Royal airforce pilots? Well the UK and Rep of Ireland have a deal in place that the RAF will protect Irish airspace if it's invaded or encroached into by the Russians for example. If Leo Varadkar wants to stop British commercial planes flying in his airspace he can kiss goodbye to the protection of the RAF too. " your not paying up on legally binding agreements you signed, if that was your attitude since northern ireland relies on electricity from the republic, and you wouldn't be a part of the European Electricity market anymore.... I'd turn out the lights in northern ireland and let you explain why you were so beligerant.... | |||
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" Could be the end of the uk supporting anti Russian air patrols over the black sea etc. no.... the agreements only apply to civilian aircraft" Yes. But Voyager our air to air refuelling aircraft which keeps the typhoon on station when on patrol, is flown under EASA regs. As is the A400m. | |||
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"I wonder if it will affect Royal airforce pilots? Of course not you bloody lefty.We can bomb Brussels or any other totalitarian regime on a whim,we are British . You misunderstand me. RAF pilots could fly some airliners. In fact civilian airline pilots could become RAF reservists, those who arn't already of course. " Yes, of course they could... because so many RAF pilots are type certified on wide-body aircraft. ffs. 
(Yes, a few will be. But not nearly enough. And even so, that doesn't solve any of the problems we have)
-Matt | |||
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" Could be the end of the uk supporting anti Russian air patrols over the black sea etc. no.... the agreements only apply to civilian aircraft Yes. But Voyager our air to air refuelling aircraft which keeps the typhoon on station when on patrol, is flown under EASA regs. As is the A400m." they are "RAF" labelled.. so would count as military aircraft.... | |||
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"I wonder if it will affect Royal airforce pilots? Well the UK and Rep of Ireland have a deal in place that the RAF will protect Irish airspace if it's invaded or encroached into by the Russians for example. If Leo Varadkar wants to stop British commercial planes flying in his airspace he can kiss goodbye to the protection of the RAF too. " Lol the Russians are going in invaded Ireland
What are you on ??
And either way we are part of the eu , that includes france and Germany so I honestly don't think we are in need of RAF support | |||
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" Could be the end of the uk supporting anti Russian air patrols over the black sea etc. no.... the agreements only apply to civilian aircraft Yes. But Voyager our air to air refuelling aircraft which keeps the typhoon on station when on patrol, is flown under EASA regs. As is the A400m. they are "RAF" labelled.. so would count as military aircraft...." Well its not quite as simply as that is it Fabs. Out of the 14 only 7 are on the military register, the other 7 are on the civil register. No matter if it has RAF painted on the side or not. All of these aircraft are maintained under EASA regs which would suddenly not count grounding the aircraft and limiting our abilities within NATO and Europe to look after it's self. And we all know how good at doing that they are.. | |||
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"I wonder if it will affect Royal airforce pilots? Well the UK and Rep of Ireland have a deal in place that the RAF will protect Irish airspace if it's invaded or encroached into by the Russians for example. If Leo Varadkar wants to stop British commercial planes flying in his airspace he can kiss goodbye to the protection of the RAF too. Lol the Russians are going in invaded Ireland
What are you on ??
And either way we are part of the eu , that includes france and Germany so I honestly don't think we are in need of RAF support "Are you saying that there IS an EU military force? | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. " It would be sorted in 24 hours so get real the world will not stop unless we have a nuclear war.I suppose Brexit will cause that lol | |||
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"For goodness sake. The Russians are not going to invade Ireland. The lights will not go off anywhere. The airlines of this world will still fly on the same routes. There will still be trade with the EU. The market of Europe will still be supplied with British goods, components and services. Britain will still receive European goods, components and services. If anyone believes otherwise, perhaps we can revisit this in 6 months time when someone will be proven wrong." | |||
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"For goodness sake. The Russians are not going to invade Ireland. The lights will not go off anywhere. The airlines of this world will still fly on the same routes. There will still be trade with the EU. The market of Europe will still be supplied with British goods, components and services. Britain will still receive European goods, components and services. If anyone believes otherwise, perhaps we can revisit this in 6 months time when someone will be proven wrong." That's not true! My toaster is going to stop working because of the millennium bug! The man on the telly told me..... | |||
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"For goodness sake. The Russians are not going to invade Ireland. The lights will not go off anywhere. The airlines of this world will still fly on the same routes. There will still be trade with the EU. The market of Europe will still be supplied with British goods, components and services. Britain will still receive European goods, components and services. If anyone believes otherwise, perhaps we can revisit this in 6 months time when someone will be proven wrong." exactly. | |||
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"I wonder if it will affect Royal airforce pilots? Well the UK and Rep of Ireland have a deal in place that the RAF will protect Irish airspace if it's invaded or encroached into by the Russians for example. If Leo Varadkar wants to stop British commercial planes flying in his airspace he can kiss goodbye to the protection of the RAF too. Lol the Russians are going in invaded Ireland
What are you on ??
And either way we are part of the eu , that includes france and Germany so I honestly don't think we are in need of RAF support "I guess you must have missed all the recent news reports about Russian incursions into British airspace then. One just last week in fact and a Russian plane had to be seen off by RAF fighters. Would be no great stretch for the Russians to fly over Rep of Ireland if they knew it was no longer under the protection of the RAF. | |||
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"I wonder if it will affect Royal airforce pilots? Well the UK and Rep of Ireland have a deal in place that the RAF will protect Irish airspace if it's invaded or encroached into by the Russians for example. If Leo Varadkar wants to stop British commercial planes flying in his airspace he can kiss goodbye to the protection of the RAF too. your not paying up on legally binding agreements you signed, if that was your attitude since northern ireland relies on electricity from the republic, and you wouldn't be a part of the European Electricity market anymore.... I'd turn out the lights in northern ireland and let you explain why you were so beligerant...." Uk No deal plans have already factored in that scenario and UK generators would supply electricity to Northern Ireland if that happened.
As for The European electricity market, lol, what a joke that is. Germany gets a high percentage of its energy from Russia. Russia could turn the taps off on Germany tomorrow if Putin felt the need and Germany would be straight up shit Creek without a paddle.  | |||
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"I wonder if it will affect Royal airforce pilots? Well the UK and Rep of Ireland have a deal in place that the RAF will protect Irish airspace if it's invaded or encroached into by the Russians for example. If Leo Varadkar wants to stop British commercial planes flying in his airspace he can kiss goodbye to the protection of the RAF too. Lol the Russians are going in invaded Ireland
What are you on ??
And either way we are part of the eu , that includes france and Germany so I honestly don't think we are in need of RAF support
I guess you must have missed all the recent news reports about Russian incursions into British airspace then. One just last week in fact and a Russian plane had to be seen off by RAF fighters. Would be no great stretch for the Russians to fly over Rep of Ireland if they knew it was no longer under the protection of the RAF. "They have been doing for years | |||
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"For goodness sake. The Russians are not going to invade Ireland. The lights will not go off anywhere. The airlines of this world will still fly on the same routes. There will still be trade with the EU. The market of Europe will still be supplied with British goods, components and services. Britain will still receive European goods, components and services. If anyone believes otherwise, perhaps we can revisit this in 6 months time when someone will be proven wrong." Excellent post. The only problem with this post is that it will disappoint all the merchants of doom and gloom on here. | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. if they are enshrined in law how come the UK can say we will respect thier qualifications and they can't? Of course they can they are just being bloody minded and trying to punish the UK for having the audacity to leave thier copy little club." I think you will find that the only change this week has been the UK publication of advice to citizens and businesses, allowing them to understand the implications of what may happen next March. It's the UK's responsibility and opportunity to negotiate with the EU, to potentially secure a more positive outcome. Despite some government ministers stating that leaving the EU would be quick and simple, it's clearly not. Just getting the UK to agree what it wants has been a cumbersome task - and the government hasn't finished that yet. | |||
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"Is turning into operation reality !!! Planes might be grounded ?? And now it's the government saying it the same lying pricks that said it was operation fear " Yep and apparently when we leave all British males cocks will drop off! Don't look shocked its the truth EU mandate its a fact oh and every clit over 1.5cms will drop off too the streets will be a mass of cocks and clits. Only the guys who can tuck their cocks up their own assholes will keep them.  | |||
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"I wonder if it will affect Royal airforce pilots? Well the UK and Rep of Ireland have a deal in place that the RAF will protect Irish airspace if it's invaded or encroached into by the Russians for example. If Leo Varadkar wants to stop British commercial planes flying in his airspace he can kiss goodbye to the protection of the RAF too. your not paying up on legally binding agreements you signed, if that was your attitude since northern ireland relies on electricity from the republic, and you wouldn't be a part of the European Electricity market anymore.... I'd turn out the lights in northern ireland and let you explain why you were so beligerant...." The trouble with your point being is that Irelands only connection with EU gas and electric supply is VIA the UK and they use UK gas from scotland to produce 45% of the electric so its Ireland that would suffer first not the north IF either side play silly buggers.Remind me again which side started off saying planes cant fly etc. Do you REALLY think that the first day after we leave that europe will stop ? Neither side is going to allow that | |||
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"I remember standing on the platform of Gatwick train station, watching the planes take off from the nearby airport. There was one every 30 seconds, and Gatwick isn’t even our biggest airport. So I surmise that it would not be possible for the EU to stop the planes from flying. There is too much money changing hands, and it would be just as much of a loss to them as it would be for us. All these prophecies of doom are making a big fuss about nothing. But why let simple facts get in the way of a good scare story. Our airlines will be safe, as will those belonging to EU companies. Simpals!" Yes the government must be very confident planes will keep flying as they recently confirmed plans to expand Heathrow. | |||
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"i recall certain people in here dismissing the idea when the EU published its own guidance for member states earlier this year. The licences issued by the EU to operators in the UK would no longer be valid after March 29. Total rubbish, they said. Now the UK Government is saying the same thing. Welcome to Little Britain, 2nd only to North Korea in its isolation. If you hate England so much, why don’t you leave? There are still other nations that are in the EU. For now..." hate ENGLAND well thats the first mistake its the UK we live in! it includes WALES,SCOTLAND and Northern Ireland. | |||
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"I remember standing on the platform of Gatwick train station, watching the planes take off from the nearby airport. There was one every 30 seconds, and Gatwick isn’t even our biggest airport. So I surmise that it would not be possible for the EU to stop the planes from flying. There is too much money changing hands, and it would be just as much of a loss to them as it would be for us. All these prophecies of doom are making a big fuss about nothing. But why let simple facts get in the way of a good scare story. Our airlines will be safe, as will those belonging to EU companies. Simpals! Yes the government must be very confident planes will keep flying as they recently confirmed plans to expand Heathrow. " Lol. I know I keep going on about it Centy, but maybe I am just jealous of the simple world you inhabit. What exactly do you think the government would do? Turn around and say “Sorry chaps, it looks like we’re making a colossal fuck up of this Brexit thing, so that expansion we have been planning for the past 10 years, let’s just stop it. Just in case. Don’t worry, don’t panic. Everything is going just fine.” -Matt | |||
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"i recall certain people in here dismissing the idea when the EU published its own guidance for member states earlier this year. The licences issued by the EU to operators in the UK would no longer be valid after March 29. Total rubbish, they said. Now the UK Government is saying the same thing. Welcome to Little Britain, 2nd only to North Korea in its isolation. If you hate England so much, why don’t you leave? There are still other nations that are in the EU. For now... hate ENGLAND well thats the first mistake its the UK we live in! it includes WALES,SCOTLAND and Northern Ireland." | |||
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"I remember standing on the platform of Gatwick train station, watching the planes take off from the nearby airport. There was one every 30 seconds, and Gatwick isn’t even our biggest airport. So I surmise that it would not be possible for the EU to stop the planes from flying. There is too much money changing hands, and it would be just as much of a loss to them as it would be for us. All these prophecies of doom are making a big fuss about nothing. But why let simple facts get in the way of a good scare story. Our airlines will be safe, as will those belonging to EU companies. Simpals! Yes the government must be very confident planes will keep flying as they recently confirmed plans to expand Heathrow. Lol. I know I keep going on about it Centy, but maybe I am just jealous of the simple world you inhabit. What exactly do you think the government would do? Turn around and say “Sorry chaps, it looks like we’re making a colossal fuck up of this Brexit thing, so that expansion we have been planning for the past 10 years, let’s just stop it. Just in case. Don’t worry, don’t panic. Everything is going just fine.” -Matt" But as has already been pointed out to both you and _abio now multiple times Matt, even the EU itself has admitted in the event of no deal they would activate their own contingency plans to keep planes flying in and out of the UK. There is absolutely no prospect of planes being grounded. End of. | |||
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"I remember standing on the platform of Gatwick train station, watching the planes take off from the nearby airport. There was one every 30 seconds, and Gatwick isn’t even our biggest airport. So I surmise that it would not be possible for the EU to stop the planes from flying. There is too much money changing hands, and it would be just as much of a loss to them as it would be for us. All these prophecies of doom are making a big fuss about nothing. But why let simple facts get in the way of a good scare story. Our airlines will be safe, as will those belonging to EU companies. Simpals! Yes the government must be very confident planes will keep flying as they recently confirmed plans to expand Heathrow. Lol. I know I keep going on about it Centy, but maybe I am just jealous of the simple world you inhabit. What exactly do you think the government would do? Turn around and say “Sorry chaps, it looks like we’re making a colossal fuck up of this Brexit thing, so that expansion we have been planning for the past 10 years, let’s just stop it. Just in case. Don’t worry, don’t panic. Everything is going just fine.” -Matt But as has already been pointed out to both you and _abio now multiple times Matt, even the EU itself has admitted in the event of no deal they would activate their own contingency plans to keep planes flying in and out of the UK. There is absolutely no prospect of planes being grounded. End of. " Maybe the EU don't realise that if planes are grounded from flying between EU and UK air space, then the Irish economy will be fucked within a week. It certainly seems that their little puppet Varadkar doesn't. | |||
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"I remember standing on the platform of Gatwick train station, watching the planes take off from the nearby airport. There was one every 30 seconds, and Gatwick isn’t even our biggest airport. So I surmise that it would not be possible for the EU to stop the planes from flying. There is too much money changing hands, and it would be just as much of a loss to them as it would be for us. All these prophecies of doom are making a big fuss about nothing. But why let simple facts get in the way of a good scare story. Our airlines will be safe, as will those belonging to EU companies. Simpals! Yes the government must be very confident planes will keep flying as they recently confirmed plans to expand Heathrow. Lol. I know I keep going on about it Centy, but maybe I am just jealous of the simple world you inhabit. What exactly do you think the government would do? Turn around and say “Sorry chaps, it looks like we’re making a colossal fuck up of this Brexit thing, so that expansion we have been planning for the past 10 years, let’s just stop it. Just in case. Don’t worry, don’t panic. Everything is going just fine.” -Matt But as has already been pointed out to both you and _abio now multiple times Matt, even the EU itself has admitted in the event of no deal they would activate their own contingency plans to keep planes flying in and out of the UK. There is absolutely no prospect of planes being grounded. End of. " So you mean we’d negotiate a deal with them? Ok, good. Pssst. Just don’t tell the no-deal hardliners 
-Matt | |||
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" So you mean we’d negotiate a deal with them? Ok, good. Pssst. Just don’t tell the no-deal hardliners
-Matt"Exactly | |||
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"im If you hate England so much, why don’t you leave? There are still other nations that are in the EU. For now... hate ENGLAND well thats the first mistake its the UK we live in! it includes WALES,SCOTLAND and Northern Ireland." Yep, a classic Little Englander who thinks the United Kingdom is some homogeneous block moulded in his own image. | |||
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"Why do so many Brexiters conflate the concepts of "no deal" and "deal"? I mean - the two positions are polar opposites so it ought to be easy to understand. EXAMPLES Aircraft will be grounded and Airbus wiill have to relocate in the event of a no deal Brexit. Brexiter Answer: That is Project Fear - something will be done to stop that happening. YES - A DEAL WILL BE MADE "Something will be done" means that the two sides will strike "a deal" to prevent the worst case scenario's." I guess its the same as the remainers who didnt understand cameron et al when they said a vote to leave meant a vote to leave the single market and customs union, and yet now think we can, can we have a trade deal yes of course we will, when,now that depends on when Juncker et al get told by their paymasters to get it sorted, the UK is ready but the EU are playing a political game with the citizens of all of europe picking up the tab Of course there will be some sort of deal done, it just wont be an un encompassing but lots of agreements in different areas | |||
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"Why do so many Brexiters conflate the concepts of "no deal" and "deal"? I mean - the two positions are polar opposites so it ought to be easy to understand. EXAMPLES Aircraft will be grounded and Airbus wiill have to relocate in the event of a no deal Brexit. Brexiter Answer: That is Project Fear - something will be done to stop that happening. YES - A DEAL WILL BE MADE "Something will be done" means that the two sides will strike "a deal" to prevent the worst case scenario's." Well I’m for no deal, full stop. The EU will neither offer us or accept any kind of deal that will benefit the UK. So the best thing we can do is walk away, pay em nowt, and set about making our own way in the real world. | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. " There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. if they are enshrined in law how come the UK can say we will respect thier qualifications and they can't? Of course they can they are just being bloody minded and trying to punish the UK for having the audacity to leave thier copy little club. I think you will find that the only change this week has been the UK publication of advice to citizens and businesses, allowing them to understand the implications of what may happen next March. It's the UK's responsibility and opportunity to negotiate with the EU, to potentially secure a more positive outcome. Despite some government ministers stating that leaving the EU would be quick and simple, it's clearly not. Just getting the UK to agree what it wants has been a cumbersome task - and the government hasn't finished that yet. " Its also proving a cumbersome task getting the EU to agree to anything. Personally I'd try pushing the March deadline back past May after the EU elections, there's a strong chance of there being many more anti EU members in their parliament after the elections. A lot of countries within Europe are seeing a surge in anti EU sentiment, Italy being the biggest candidate so far (All is not as rosy in within the EU as they'd like you to think), and I think this could have a much more positive effect on any deal done between the UK and the EU. | |||
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" There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? " because of that "all treaties cease to exist" thing that happens if a no deal happens.... which means that the UK would no longer be a party to the European Aviation Safety Agreement (EASA) and the EU-US openskies agreement.... as i tried explaining before... its not a EU thing... its an international law thing!!! Civilian planes are not allowed to fly if maintenance and safety records are not valid... for example... north korean planes are not allowed to fly over EU airspace, because their maintainance records are so bad they cant get saftey certificates UK safety and maintenance records would no longer be valid as they wouldn't be recognised by anyone.... its not just the eu that wouldn't recognise them... it would be every country on the planet! so for example... until the us recognised safety and maintenance records a uk plane couldn't fly to the us... or the canadians with their authorities and so on and so on........ the UK would cease to be party to any agreements that the EU had so their their safety and maintainance records are recognised by other countries... the example i gave for a car is probably most apt... you cannot drive a car if you don't have insurance, you cannot get insurance if you don't have a valid MOT, and you can't get a valid MOT if it is not recognised by anyone....... the same is for ferries..... the same is for the channel tunnel.... the same will be for any UK bus/coach travelling across to the continent..... | |||
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"I dunno what we're all panicking about. They've EU and government have already said there will be another 2 year transition period for all the loose ends to be tied up and formal arrangements to sort themselves out even if it is a so called hard brexit. I am 100% sure the planes will fly and the ships will dock on the 30th March. The cliff edge is a load of bollocks if you ask me." p.s provided we agree to pay our 39 Billion Bribe | |||
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" There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? because of that "all treaties cease to exist" thing that happens if a no deal happens.... which means that the UK would no longer be a party to the European Aviation Safety Agreement (EASA) and the EU-US openskies agreement.... as i tried explaining before... its not a EU thing... its an international law thing!!! Civilian planes are not allowed to fly if maintenance and safety records are not valid... for example... north korean planes are not allowed to fly over EU airspace, because their maintainance records are so bad they cant get saftey certificates UK safety and maintenance records would no longer be valid as they wouldn't be recognised by anyone.... its not just the eu that wouldn't recognise them... it would be every country on the planet! so for example... until the us recognised safety and maintenance records a uk plane couldn't fly to the us... or the canadians with their authorities and so on and so on........ the UK would cease to be party to any agreements that the EU had so their their safety and maintainance records are recognised by other countries... the example i gave for a car is probably most apt... you cannot drive a car if you don't have insurance, you cannot get insurance if you don't have a valid MOT, and you can't get a valid MOT if it is not recognised by anyone....... the same is for ferries..... the same is for the channel tunnel.... the same will be for any UK bus/coach travelling across to the continent..... " There are plenty of people driving around with no tax, mot or insurance so perhaps it isn't a good example! | |||
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"Why do so many Brexiters conflate the concepts of "no deal" and "deal"? I mean - the two positions are polar opposites so it ought to be easy to understand. EXAMPLES Aircraft will be grounded and Airbus wiill have to relocate in the event of a no deal Brexit. Brexiter Answer: That is Project Fear - something will be done to stop that happening. YES - A DEAL WILL BE MADE "Something will be done" means that the two sides will strike "a deal" to prevent the worst case scenario's. Well I’m for no deal, full stop. The EU will neither offer us or accept any kind of deal that will benefit the UK. So the best thing we can do is walk away, pay em nowt, and set about making our own way in the real world." It defies common sense to refuse to negotiate and accept a deal based solely on the premise that your partner will not offer you anything of value - and so you walk away, before seeing the value/cost of what your negotiations conclude to. Such an approach would mean that nothing ever gets negotiated anywhere  . Stop being negative about Brexit and adopt an open mind is being shared amongst us. | |||
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" There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? because of that "all treaties cease to exist" thing that happens if a no deal happens.... which means that the UK would no longer be a party to the European Aviation Safety Agreement (EASA) and the EU-US openskies agreement.... as i tried explaining before... its not a EU thing... its an international law thing!!! Civilian planes are not allowed to fly if maintenance and safety records are not valid... for example... north korean planes are not allowed to fly over EU airspace, because their maintainance records are so bad they cant get saftey certificates UK safety and maintenance records would no longer be valid as they wouldn't be recognised by anyone.... its not just the eu that wouldn't recognise them... it would be every country on the planet! so for example... until the us recognised safety and maintenance records a uk plane couldn't fly to the us... or the canadians with their authorities and so on and so on........ the UK would cease to be party to any agreements that the EU had so their their safety and maintainance records are recognised by other countries... the example i gave for a car is probably most apt... you cannot drive a car if you don't have insurance, you cannot get insurance if you don't have a valid MOT, and you can't get a valid MOT if it is not recognised by anyone....... the same is for ferries..... the same is for the channel tunnel.... the same will be for any UK bus/coach travelling across to the continent..... " The Independent newspaper had a story on No-Deal Brexit and Travel. Here are some quotes from it: Flights to and from the EU The government says it would envisage granting permission to EU airlines to continue to operate and that it would expect EU countries to reciprocate, but the EU hasn’t confirmed this. UK-licensed airlines would need two permissions in order to keep flying to and from the EU: one from the national authorities of each individual state, each of which has its own processes, and one from the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), the European Union Agency responsible for civil aviation safety, giving them safety authorisation. The UK “would expect the recognition of equivalent safety standards to be on a reciprocal basis” – but again, the EU hasn’t confirmed that this would happen. Airport Security In the event of no deal the existing airport security regulations and procedures will be retained in domestic law under the EU Withdrawal Act. However, although the plans say “there is no reason for the UK’s aviation security regime not to be recognised by the EU as equivalent, which would mean no additional security restrictions would need to be imposed by either the EU or the UK,” the EU is saying something rather different. In the preparedness notices issued by the European Commission, they’ve indicated that they will not recognise the UK aviation security system. The technical rules and standards of EU aviation safety legislation would be retained and applied by the UK as domestic law, through the provisions of the European Union Withdrawal Act 2018. Aviation Safety If there’s no deal, the automatic mutual recognition of aviation safety certificates, provided for under the EASA system, would cease to apply to the UK. The government has said all aircraft certificates and other documents that are valid and issued by organisations approved in accordance with EASA requirements prior to exit day would remain valid after Brexit. However, the EU “has indicated that it would take a different approach to the UK”, rather than offering a reciprocal deal. The information notices issued by the European Commission say that certificates previously issued by the CAA before exit day would no longer be automatically accepted in the EASA system after 29 March 2019. Did anyone else spot the recurring theme that the UK government are being helpful and the EU are being downright awkward? | |||
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" There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? because of that "all treaties cease to exist" thing that happens if a no deal happens.... which means that the UK would no longer be a party to the European Aviation Safety Agreement (EASA) and the EU-US openskies agreement.... as i tried explaining before... its not a EU thing... its an international law thing!!! Civilian planes are not allowed to fly if maintenance and safety records are not valid... for example... north korean planes are not allowed to fly over EU airspace, because their maintainance records are so bad they cant get saftey certificates UK safety and maintenance records would no longer be valid as they wouldn't be recognised by anyone.... its not just the eu that wouldn't recognise them... it would be every country on the planet! so for example... until the us recognised safety and maintenance records a uk plane couldn't fly to the us... or the canadians with their authorities and so on and so on........ the UK would cease to be party to any agreements that the EU had so their their safety and maintainance records are recognised by other countries... the example i gave for a car is probably most apt... you cannot drive a car if you don't have insurance, you cannot get insurance if you don't have a valid MOT, and you can't get a valid MOT if it is not recognised by anyone....... the same is for ferries..... the same is for the channel tunnel.... the same will be for any UK bus/coach travelling across to the continent..... The Independent newspaper had a story on No-Deal Brexit and Travel. Here are some quotes from it: Flights to and from the EU The government says it would envisage granting permission to EU airlines to continue to operate and that it would expect EU countries to reciprocate, but the EU hasn’t confirmed this. UK-licensed airlines would need two permissions in order to keep flying to and from the EU: one from the national authorities of each individual state, each of which has its own processes, and one from the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), the European Union Agency responsible for civil aviation safety, giving them safety authorisation. The UK “would expect the recognition of equivalent safety standards to be on a reciprocal basis” – but again, the EU hasn’t confirmed that this would happen. Airport Security In the event of no deal the existing airport security regulations and procedures will be retained in domestic law under the EU Withdrawal Act. However, although the plans say “there is no reason for the UK’s aviation security regime not to be recognised by the EU as equivalent, which would mean no additional security restrictions would need to be imposed by either the EU or the UK,” the EU is saying something rather different. In the preparedness notices issued by the European Commission, they’ve indicated that they will not recognise the UK aviation security system. The technical rules and standards of EU aviation safety legislation would be retained and applied by the UK as domestic law, through the provisions of the European Union Withdrawal Act 2018. Aviation Safety If there’s no deal, the automatic mutual recognition of aviation safety certificates, provided for under the EASA system, would cease to apply to the UK. The government has said all aircraft certificates and other documents that are valid and issued by organisations approved in accordance with EASA requirements prior to exit day would remain valid after Brexit. However, the EU “has indicated that it would take a different approach to the UK”, rather than offering a reciprocal deal. The information notices issued by the European Commission say that certificates previously issued by the CAA before exit day would no longer be automatically accepted in the EASA system after 29 March 2019. Did anyone else spot the recurring theme that the UK government are being helpful and the EU are being downright awkward?" When we bang on about nothing is agreed until everything is agreed and keep seeking to reneg on backstops and owed monies, I can understand why the EU aren’t coming out and agreeing things piecemeal. Feels like a car of live by the sword etc. | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? " The UK has been undertaking legislation changes to accommodate the many changes that could be needed at the conclusion of EU withdrawal. Typically creating legislation takes many months of planning and work - not to mention the high costs involved - whilst also potentially meaning that other urgent/emergency needs are displaced. You may also need each member state to undertake similar costly work. You mentioned the concept of something getting 'amend'ed, but perhaps have overlooked the volume of changes, processes and laws, with 28 countries involved, on the assumption that at 1 second past midnight on the first day, it's all been completed. It's worth thinking about some of the change management processes that are undertaken just within small organisations - perhaps you have been responsible for implementation of such activities? Now factor that upwards to an interconnected organisation of 28 countries, that isn't only subject to its own laws and agreements but also with those of the rest of the world, that are different when one country disconnects. Many of these international affairs also relate to interconnect costs which total $billions. Nods and winks don't cut it when huge risks and costs are involved | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? The UK has been undertaking legislation changes to accommodate the many changes that could be needed at the conclusion of EU withdrawal. Typically creating legislation takes many months of planning and work - not to mention the high costs involved - whilst also potentially meaning that other urgent/emergency needs are displaced. You may also need each member state to undertake similar costly work. You mentioned the concept of something getting 'amend'ed, but perhaps have overlooked the volume of changes, processes and laws, with 28 countries involved, on the assumption that at 1 second past midnight on the first day, it's all been completed. It's worth thinking about some of the change management processes that are undertaken just within small organisations - perhaps you have been responsible for implementation of such activities? Now factor that upwards to an interconnected organisation of 28 countries, that isn't only subject to its own laws and agreements but also with those of the rest of the world, that are different when one country disconnects. Many of these international affairs also relate to interconnect costs which total $billions. Nods and winks don't cut it when huge risks and costs are involved " This is the bit I think people just seem to be blindly ignorant of, or purposefully ignoring. If you just take a single example of car insurance... pretty much everybody with a car will have a car insurance policy that will have some wording in it that speak about your coverage in the EU. Now that could change. Again, we don't know. So the insurance companies can't change it now. As they don't know what the change will be. I guess the best they can do is put in some clause saying "we don't know". So they have to re-write all of their insurance contacts to their customers. What is my right as a consumer? I bought a car insurance policy and that covers me to drive in the EU and I paid a certain amount for it. If things change, what will happen to my policy? Whatever deal we strike will have some impact on that cover and those rights. What happens if my rights are now less? Do I get a refund? Do I need a new insurance policy to now cover whatever the new 'deal' (assuming there is one)? Whatever it is, every single car insurance company is going to be re-drafting T&Cs as a result. Which will need lawyers to do it, and the related admin time/money to get them all distributed etc. That is just *one* example, and very much simplified, in *one* industry. No doubt it is *much* more complex than that, as those insurance policies will be underwritten by bigger insurance companies, and there will be changes there. What if one of those underwriters is not based in the UK? That is a financial service being sold across the border we will now have. My son has a guide dog. He has travelled to France a number of times in the past couple of years. Will he be able to now? From what I have read it is now going to be a pain in the arse for him to go. Just another example. -Matt | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? The UK has been undertaking legislation changes to accommodate the many changes that could be needed at the conclusion of EU withdrawal. Typically creating legislation takes many months of planning and work - not to mention the high costs involved - whilst also potentially meaning that other urgent/emergency needs are displaced. You may also need each member state to undertake similar costly work. You mentioned the concept of something getting 'amend'ed, but perhaps have overlooked the volume of changes, processes and laws, with 28 countries involved, on the assumption that at 1 second past midnight on the first day, it's all been completed. It's worth thinking about some of the change management processes that are undertaken just within small organisations - perhaps you have been responsible for implementation of such activities? Now factor that upwards to an interconnected organisation of 28 countries, that isn't only subject to its own laws and agreements but also with those of the rest of the world, that are different when one country disconnects. Many of these international affairs also relate to interconnect costs which total $billions. Nods and winks don't cut it when huge risks and costs are involved This is the bit I think people just seem to be blindly ignorant of, or purposefully ignoring. If you just take a single example of car insurance... pretty much everybody with a car will have a car insurance policy that will have some wording in it that speak about your coverage in the EU. Now that could change. Again, we don't know. So the insurance companies can't change it now. As they don't know what the change will be. I guess the best they can do is put in some clause saying "we don't know". So they have to re-write all of their insurance contacts to their customers. What is my right as a consumer? I bought a car insurance policy and that covers me to drive in the EU and I paid a certain amount for it. If things change, what will happen to my policy? Whatever deal we strike will have some impact on that cover and those rights. What happens if my rights are now less? Do I get a refund? Do I need a new insurance policy to now cover whatever the new 'deal' (assuming there is one)? Whatever it is, every single car insurance company is going to be re-drafting T&Cs as a result. Which will need lawyers to do it, and the related admin time/money to get them all distributed etc. That is just *one* example, and very much simplified, in *one* industry. No doubt it is *much* more complex than that, as those insurance policies will be underwritten by bigger insurance companies, and there will be changes there. What if one of those underwriters is not based in the UK? That is a financial service being sold across the border we will now have. My son has a guide dog. He has travelled to France a number of times in the past couple of years. Will he be able to now? From what I have read it is now going to be a pain in the arse for him to go. Just another example. -Matt" This from the MIB...you may need a 'green card' - (last time I got one, I did it over the phone, took about 5 minutes from what I can remember, was cheap and easy. You present it at the same time as your passport). "Preserving the current system post-Brexit should be achievable and encouraged given that there are already other non-EEA countries which are no longer ‘Green Card Compulsory’. To maintain this system, the UK will need to keep the requirement for compulsory motor cover within the EEA and ‘third countries’ in the Road Traffic Act and MIB will need to remain signatory to an international Multilateral Agreement. It is also likely that there will be a requirement for the European Commission to implement a decision sanctioning no Green Cards and border checks between the UK and the EEA. This from Disability UK Pet travel - guide and assistance dogs Scenarios vary according how the EU classifies the UK. The UK becomes a ‘third country’, linked to a country’s animal health status. It could have one of three catgorisations: Part 1 listed, Part 2 listed or ‘unlisted’. On arrival in the EU, pet owners travelling with their pet would still be required to report to a Travellers’ Point of Entry. Part 1: Changes needed to documentation but no change for pet owners from what they currently need to do in terms of health preparations. Part 2: Before a dog could travel from the UK to an EU country for the first time, it would need to be taken to an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least 21 days in advance to ensure the dog has a microchip and rabies vaccination. The OV would issue a health certificate. This would be valid for ten days after the date of issue for entry into the EU, and for four months of onward travel within the EU. Health certificates would have to be issued for each trip to the EU. Unlisted: You would need to discuss preparations for your dog’s travel with an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least four months in advance of the date you wish to travel. You would need to prove your dog is effectively vaccinated against rabies. If your dog has never had a vaccination or it is not up to date you will need to have a blood test 30 days after the vaccination followed by a further three-month waiting period before you can travel with your dog. So yes, your son will be able to travel. Last time we took our dog, we went to the Vet several months in advance to find out what we had to do....so not that much different really. | |||
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"i recall certain people in here dismissing the idea when the EU published its own guidance for member states earlier this year. The licences issued by the EU to operators in the UK would no longer be valid after March 29. Total rubbish, they said. Now the UK Government is saying the same thing. Welcome to Little Britain, 2nd only to North Korea in its isolation. If you hate England so much, why don’t you leave? There are still other nations that are in the EU. For now..." What a sophisticated argument....unless there's been a change in the law lately, dissent is allowed in the UK (Yes, the UK NOT England) | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. if they are enshrined in law how come the UK can say we will respect thier qualifications and they can't? Of course they can they are just being bloody minded and trying to punish the UK for having the audacity to leave thier copy little club. Um... AGAIN... this is getting so boring pointing this out. What you are asking for is commonly known as 'a deal'. That is fine. These are the scenarios laid out if we *don't* agree on a deal. Why is this so difficult to grasp? -Matt" Matt the gammons on this thread can barely grasp how to use a tin opener. Yet they are all SO knowledgeable about trade deals, passporting and other topics. You can spot them easily, they are the ones who usually cannot spell. “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference”: Mark Twain. The UK is fucked, you are better off just relocating. | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? The UK has been undertaking legislation changes to accommodate the many changes that could be needed at the conclusion of EU withdrawal. Typically creating legislation takes many months of planning and work - not to mention the high costs involved - whilst also potentially meaning that other urgent/emergency needs are displaced. You may also need each member state to undertake similar costly work. You mentioned the concept of something getting 'amend'ed, but perhaps have overlooked the volume of changes, processes and laws, with 28 countries involved, on the assumption that at 1 second past midnight on the first day, it's all been completed. It's worth thinking about some of the change management processes that are undertaken just within small organisations - perhaps you have been responsible for implementation of such activities? Now factor that upwards to an interconnected organisation of 28 countries, that isn't only subject to its own laws and agreements but also with those of the rest of the world, that are different when one country disconnects. Many of these international affairs also relate to interconnect costs which total $billions. Nods and winks don't cut it when huge risks and costs are involved This is the bit I think people just seem to be blindly ignorant of, or purposefully ignoring. If you just take a single example of car insurance... pretty much everybody with a car will have a car insurance policy that will have some wording in it that speak about your coverage in the EU. Now that could change. Again, we don't know. So the insurance companies can't change it now. As they don't know what the change will be. I guess the best they can do is put in some clause saying "we don't know". So they have to re-write all of their insurance contacts to their customers. What is my right as a consumer? I bought a car insurance policy and that covers me to drive in the EU and I paid a certain amount for it. If things change, what will happen to my policy? Whatever deal we strike will have some impact on that cover and those rights. What happens if my rights are now less? Do I get a refund? Do I need a new insurance policy to now cover whatever the new 'deal' (assuming there is one)? Whatever it is, every single car insurance company is going to be re-drafting T&Cs as a result. Which will need lawyers to do it, and the related admin time/money to get them all distributed etc. That is just *one* example, and very much simplified, in *one* industry. No doubt it is *much* more complex than that, as those insurance policies will be underwritten by bigger insurance companies, and there will be changes there. What if one of those underwriters is not based in the UK? That is a financial service being sold across the border we will now have. My son has a guide dog. He has travelled to France a number of times in the past couple of years. Will he be able to now? From what I have read it is now going to be a pain in the arse for him to go. Just another example. -Matt This from the MIB...you may need a 'green card' - (last time I got one, I did it over the phone, took about 5 minutes from what I can remember, was cheap and easy. You present it at the same time as your passport). "Preserving the current system post-Brexit should be achievable and encouraged given that there are already other non-EEA countries which are no longer ‘Green Card Compulsory’. To maintain this system, the UK will need to keep the requirement for compulsory motor cover within the EEA and ‘third countries’ in the Road Traffic Act and MIB will need to remain signatory to an international Multilateral Agreement. It is also likely that there will be a requirement for the European Commission to implement a decision sanctioning no Green Cards and border checks between the UK and the EEA. This from Disability UK Pet travel - guide and assistance dogs Scenarios vary according how the EU classifies the UK. The UK becomes a ‘third country’, linked to a country’s animal health status. It could have one of three catgorisations: Part 1 listed, Part 2 listed or ‘unlisted’. On arrival in the EU, pet owners travelling with their pet would still be required to report to a Travellers’ Point of Entry. Part 1: Changes needed to documentation but no change for pet owners from what they currently need to do in terms of health preparations. Part 2: Before a dog could travel from the UK to an EU country for the first time, it would need to be taken to an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least 21 days in advance to ensure the dog has a microchip and rabies vaccination. The OV would issue a health certificate. This would be valid for ten days after the date of issue for entry into the EU, and for four months of onward travel within the EU. Health certificates would have to be issued for each trip to the EU. Unlisted: You would need to discuss preparations for your dog’s travel with an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least four months in advance of the date you wish to travel. You would need to prove your dog is effectively vaccinated against rabies. If your dog has never had a vaccination or it is not up to date you will need to have a blood test 30 days after the vaccination followed by a further three-month waiting period before you can travel with your dog. So yes, your son will be able to travel. Last time we took our dog, we went to the Vet several months in advance to find out what we had to do....so not that much different really." Exactly. Thank you for taking the time to post supporting material to my argument. It was late and I didn't. -Matt | |||
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"Yes but Article 50 was written to allow a country to leave the EU without punitive action. We have agreed a 39 Billion pound divorce Bill and a 2 year transition period so that all issues such as car insurance clauses and airport issues can be sorted in an orderly and timely manner. I really can't see where the cliff edge is or why people say there is one. If Easy jet pilots need to apply for new licences and car insurance companies rewrite their clauses they'll have 2 years to do it because after 29th March we will know exactly where we stand, where as at the moment we have no idea." I think what events have shown us is the UK does not have the capacity to make the transition in the time-frame of Article 50, i.e. by March 29, 2019. All this talk of being ready for no-deal is negotiating bluster. The UK simply is not ready to disengage from the EU. Or not in a way that allows a smooth transition to a life outwith all the various mechanisms of the single market. Sure, there are some "suicide bombers" in the Conservative Party and those further to the right who believe in the nuclear option, regardless of the consequences. A bit like pulling all the plugs from someone on a life support system and praying to Allah the patient makes a speedy recovery. But I do not believe anyone who ever rises to the office of Prime Minister, and is surrounded by all the evidence of the consequences, would ever go down that road. Their conduct would be so reckless to bring their career to a very quick end and quite possibly lead to all sorts of personal recriminations. This will go the 11th hour, I suspect, when we will see a classic fudge - the UK officially leaves the EU, a legal bridge is put in place to keep the UK inside all existing frameworks (in return for a fat fee) and a new date is fixed for the UK's withdrawal. In other words, the can gets kicked a little further down the street to give the UK and the EU time to adjust to a different relationship. I simply cannot believe a British Prime Minister would knowingly pursue a course that wrecks the country's economic and social linkages and destabilises the union of the United Kingdom. | |||
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"Yes but Article 50 was written to allow a country to leave the EU without punitive action. We have agreed a 39 Billion pound divorce Bill and a 2 year transition period so that all issues such as car insurance clauses and airport issues can be sorted in an orderly and timely manner. I really can't see where the cliff edge is or why people say there is one. If Easy jet pilots need to apply for new licences and car insurance companies rewrite their clauses they'll have 2 years to do it because after 29th March we will know exactly where we stand, where as at the moment we have no idea." 2 years? Where do you get that from? The agreements we are a part of currently *cease* on the 29th March. Are you saying we all just sit still and do fuck all for 2 years? -Matt | |||
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"I quote from sky news on march 29th " The success of the day was that the framework for the transition period was laid down, giving business certainty the UK will remain in the EU's single market and customs union for an extended and defined period. This avoids the so called "cliff-edge" for firms that are trying to plan financial decisions that stretch beyond March 2019. They now have until the end of December 2020. The cliff has been pushed back, giving politicians time to install a slide or prepare some big mattresses." Seems clear enough to me" But that is only if we agree on a deal before we exit. Which is looking increasingly unlikely. -Matt | |||
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"Hold their nerve is probably what is needed. I can't imagine Junker and Barnier walking away from 39 Billion quid. All they have to do is agree to disagree, We stump up the 39 Billion and can is kicked into long grass till 2020, giving business etc another 2 years to sort it out under conditions of hard or soft brexit. There I've sorted it
"You mean we agree to extend the Article 50 deadline by another couple of years? Well, yes, that is certainly an option. But the rabid hard leavers would not be in favour of that. And actually I doubt many others would be either, as just leaves us in limbo for even longer. Also, as far as I know, we'd need to get the rest of the EU27 to vote in agreement on that idea. And I imagine many of them are sick of the whole process by now. -Matt | |||
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"I quote from sky news on march 29th " The success of the day was that the framework for the transition period was laid down, giving business certainty the UK will remain in the EU's single market and customs union for an extended and defined period. This avoids the so called "cliff-edge" for firms that are trying to plan financial decisions that stretch beyond March 2019. They now have until the end of December 2020. The cliff has been pushed back, giving politicians time to install a slide or prepare some big mattresses." Seems clear enough to me" remember this term i am about to use is almost being used as mantra by one side.... guess which? "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"........ so..... here is article 50, paragraph 3... 3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period. so if "nothing is agreed"..... then the treaties shall cease to apply..... all of them!! every single one!!! even the ones you don't know about and are finding out about now, because they are actually quite useful!!!! leave means leave........ | |||
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"And do you really really think they'll do that without thinking that is a bit of a stupid thing to do. Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face springs to mind. I was on Zante last week (Lucky me) Every business and I mean every business there is totally dependent on British custom. What do you think would happen to the thousands of small business's dependent on our custom if suddenly because of a stinking pound we couldn't afford to go there. Their people would be up in arms. I'm quite happy to have a stacation for a couple of years if necessary. Honest peeps are we not just panicking a bit here ? Come on, have a bit of british, stiff upper lip and stop pandering to the doomsday sooth sayers. By all means try and get an agreement Mrs May but don't totally knuckle under like JC wants us too. Pheweeeeeeeee" The thing is, it is not what they (our govt, I presume you mean?) do, but more what they *don't* do. By March 2019 we need to have an agreement in place. Some hardliners don't want that. They think that crashing out without an agreement is the right thing to do. They don't care what it means to businesses in Zante, or even when it means to businesses here to be honest. They just want out. Their belligerence is such that, nothing less than no deal would be a suitable outcome. Brexiteers don't care about the sinking pound, they think that is a good thing for some reason. Despite the fact we are net importers. So we need to get a deal. The issue is we seem to still be in 'cake and eat it mode'. And the EU are (rightly so) saying that the only way to get all the benefits of being in the EU... is to be in the EU. -Matt | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? The UK has been undertaking legislation changes to accommodate the many changes that could be needed at the conclusion of EU withdrawal. Typically creating legislation takes many months of planning and work - not to mention the high costs involved - whilst also potentially meaning that other urgent/emergency needs are displaced. You may also need each member state to undertake similar costly work. You mentioned the concept of something getting 'amend'ed, but perhaps have overlooked the volume of changes, processes and laws, with 28 countries involved, on the assumption that at 1 second past midnight on the first day, it's all been completed. It's worth thinking about some of the change management processes that are undertaken just within small organisations - perhaps you have been responsible for implementation of such activities? Now factor that upwards to an interconnected organisation of 28 countries, that isn't only subject to its own laws and agreements but also with those of the rest of the world, that are different when one country disconnects. Many of these international affairs also relate to interconnect costs which total $billions. Nods and winks don't cut it when huge risks and costs are involved This is the bit I think people just seem to be blindly ignorant of, or purposefully ignoring. If you just take a single example of car insurance... pretty much everybody with a car will have a car insurance policy that will have some wording in it that speak about your coverage in the EU. Now that could change. Again, we don't know. So the insurance companies can't change it now. As they don't know what the change will be. I guess the best they can do is put in some clause saying "we don't know". So they have to re-write all of their insurance contacts to their customers. What is my right as a consumer? I bought a car insurance policy and that covers me to drive in the EU and I paid a certain amount for it. If things change, what will happen to my policy? Whatever deal we strike will have some impact on that cover and those rights. What happens if my rights are now less? Do I get a refund? Do I need a new insurance policy to now cover whatever the new 'deal' (assuming there is one)? Whatever it is, every single car insurance company is going to be re-drafting T&Cs as a result. Which will need lawyers to do it, and the related admin time/money to get them all distributed etc. That is just *one* example, and very much simplified, in *one* industry. No doubt it is *much* more complex than that, as those insurance policies will be underwritten by bigger insurance companies, and there will be changes there. What if one of those underwriters is not based in the UK? That is a financial service being sold across the border we will now have. My son has a guide dog. He has travelled to France a number of times in the past couple of years. Will he be able to now? From what I have read it is now going to be a pain in the arse for him to go. Just another example. -Matt This from the MIB...you may need a 'green card' - (last time I got one, I did it over the phone, took about 5 minutes from what I can remember, was cheap and easy. You present it at the same time as your passport). "Preserving the current system post-Brexit should be achievable and encouraged given that there are already other non-EEA countries which are no longer ‘Green Card Compulsory’. To maintain this system, the UK will need to keep the requirement for compulsory motor cover within the EEA and ‘third countries’ in the Road Traffic Act and MIB will need to remain signatory to an international Multilateral Agreement. It is also likely that there will be a requirement for the European Commission to implement a decision sanctioning no Green Cards and border checks between the UK and the EEA. This from Disability UK Pet travel - guide and assistance dogs Scenarios vary according how the EU classifies the UK. The UK becomes a ‘third country’, linked to a country’s animal health status. It could have one of three catgorisations: Part 1 listed, Part 2 listed or ‘unlisted’. On arrival in the EU, pet owners travelling with their pet would still be required to report to a Travellers’ Point of Entry. Part 1: Changes needed to documentation but no change for pet owners from what they currently need to do in terms of health preparations. Part 2: Before a dog could travel from the UK to an EU country for the first time, it would need to be taken to an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least 21 days in advance to ensure the dog has a microchip and rabies vaccination. The OV would issue a health certificate. This would be valid for ten days after the date of issue for entry into the EU, and for four months of onward travel within the EU. Health certificates would have to be issued for each trip to the EU. Unlisted: You would need to discuss preparations for your dog’s travel with an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least four months in advance of the date you wish to travel. You would need to prove your dog is effectively vaccinated against rabies. If your dog has never had a vaccination or it is not up to date you will need to have a blood test 30 days after the vaccination followed by a further three-month waiting period before you can travel with your dog. So yes, your son will be able to travel. Last time we took our dog, we went to the Vet several months in advance to find out what we had to do....so not that much different really. Exactly. Thank you for taking the time to post supporting material to my argument. It was late and I didn't. -Matt" I also said it's not as difficukt as you make out. People will still be able to get car insurance, and your son will still be able to take his guide dog to the EU. | |||
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" The thing is, it is not what they (our govt, I presume you mean?) do, but more what they *don't* do. By March 2019 we need to have an agreement in place. Some hardliners don't want that. They think that crashing out without an agreement is the right thing to do. They don't care what it means to businesses in Zante, or even when it means to businesses here to be honest. They just want out. Their belligerence is such that, nothing less than no deal would be a suitable outcome. Brexiteers don't care about the sinking pound, they think that is a good thing for some reason. Despite the fact we are net importers. So we need to get a deal. The issue is we seem to still be in 'cake and eat it mode'. And the EU are (rightly so) saying that the only way to get all the benefits of being in the EU... is to be in the EU. -Matt" The pound is not sinking as you put it, it dropped by around 10% after the vote and has settled around 15% since and despite the hysteria about no deal is quite stable at the moment. THat has pros and cons depending on which part of the economy youre in. There will be a deal in place, even the EU have said there will be to ensure planes still fly, will that deal include a trade deal?who knows it will depend on who is in charge of the EU decision, business will want a deal as we do, the politicians wont as they cant allow us to have the benefits of the EU without all the obligations. I dont think there will be the all singing and dancing deal that some are calling for but there will be lots of agreements covering the day to day life of things, every single aggrement that I have had any knowledge of with the EU has been done at the last minute or often the next day, this will be no different,every difficulty that you and other remainers mention affects both sides so it will be sorted, for instance can you imagine the rage the spanish gov would face if every uk tourist couldnt get there due to the eu suddenly saying they wont accept uk planes and pilots, or the french when they cant sell us their dairy products or the germans their cars. Reality will happen | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? The UK has been undertaking legislation changes to accommodate the many changes that could be needed at the conclusion of EU withdrawal. Typically creating legislation takes many months of planning and work - not to mention the high costs involved - whilst also potentially meaning that other urgent/emergency needs are displaced. You may also need each member state to undertake similar costly work. You mentioned the concept of something getting 'amend'ed, but perhaps have overlooked the volume of changes, processes and laws, with 28 countries involved, on the assumption that at 1 second past midnight on the first day, it's all been completed. It's worth thinking about some of the change management processes that are undertaken just within small organisations - perhaps you have been responsible for implementation of such activities? Now factor that upwards to an interconnected organisation of 28 countries, that isn't only subject to its own laws and agreements but also with those of the rest of the world, that are different when one country disconnects. Many of these international affairs also relate to interconnect costs which total $billions. Nods and winks don't cut it when huge risks and costs are involved This is the bit I think people just seem to be blindly ignorant of, or purposefully ignoring. If you just take a single example of car insurance... pretty much everybody with a car will have a car insurance policy that will have some wording in it that speak about your coverage in the EU. Now that could change. Again, we don't know. So the insurance companies can't change it now. As they don't know what the change will be. I guess the best they can do is put in some clause saying "we don't know". So they have to re-write all of their insurance contacts to their customers. What is my right as a consumer? I bought a car insurance policy and that covers me to drive in the EU and I paid a certain amount for it. If things change, what will happen to my policy? Whatever deal we strike will have some impact on that cover and those rights. What happens if my rights are now less? Do I get a refund? Do I need a new insurance policy to now cover whatever the new 'deal' (assuming there is one)? Whatever it is, every single car insurance company is going to be re-drafting T&Cs as a result. Which will need lawyers to do it, and the related admin time/money to get them all distributed etc. That is just *one* example, and very much simplified, in *one* industry. No doubt it is *much* more complex than that, as those insurance policies will be underwritten by bigger insurance companies, and there will be changes there. What if one of those underwriters is not based in the UK? That is a financial service being sold across the border we will now have. My son has a guide dog. He has travelled to France a number of times in the past couple of years. Will he be able to now? From what I have read it is now going to be a pain in the arse for him to go. Just another example. -Matt This from the MIB...you may need a 'green card' - (last time I got one, I did it over the phone, took about 5 minutes from what I can remember, was cheap and easy. You present it at the same time as your passport). "Preserving the current system post-Brexit should be achievable and encouraged given that there are already other non-EEA countries which are no longer ‘Green Card Compulsory’. To maintain this system, the UK will need to keep the requirement for compulsory motor cover within the EEA and ‘third countries’ in the Road Traffic Act and MIB will need to remain signatory to an international Multilateral Agreement. It is also likely that there will be a requirement for the European Commission to implement a decision sanctioning no Green Cards and border checks between the UK and the EEA. This from Disability UK Pet travel - guide and assistance dogs Scenarios vary according how the EU classifies the UK. The UK becomes a ‘third country’, linked to a country’s animal health status. It could have one of three catgorisations: Part 1 listed, Part 2 listed or ‘unlisted’. On arrival in the EU, pet owners travelling with their pet would still be required to report to a Travellers’ Point of Entry. Part 1: Changes needed to documentation but no change for pet owners from what they currently need to do in terms of health preparations. Part 2: Before a dog could travel from the UK to an EU country for the first time, it would need to be taken to an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least 21 days in advance to ensure the dog has a microchip and rabies vaccination. The OV would issue a health certificate. This would be valid for ten days after the date of issue for entry into the EU, and for four months of onward travel within the EU. Health certificates would have to be issued for each trip to the EU. Unlisted: You would need to discuss preparations for your dog’s travel with an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least four months in advance of the date you wish to travel. You would need to prove your dog is effectively vaccinated against rabies. If your dog has never had a vaccination or it is not up to date you will need to have a blood test 30 days after the vaccination followed by a further three-month waiting period before you can travel with your dog. So yes, your son will be able to travel. Last time we took our dog, we went to the Vet several months in advance to find out what we had to do....so not that much different really. Exactly. Thank you for taking the time to post supporting material to my argument. It was late and I didn't. -Matt I also said it's not as difficukt as you make out. People will still be able to get car insurance, and your son will still be able to take his guide dog to the EU." No, if you read what I wrote I said that there is going to be a colossal amount of work involved in updating all the paperwork, legal documents, contracts, etc for everything. I gave just one example of one industry and said to imagine scaling that up to everything in all the other industries. And yes, as you pointed out, it could make it significantly harder for my son to go over to France now. -Matt | |||
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" The thing is, it is not what they (our govt, I presume you mean?) do, but more what they *don't* do. By March 2019 we need to have an agreement in place. Some hardliners don't want that. They think that crashing out without an agreement is the right thing to do. They don't care what it means to businesses in Zante, or even when it means to businesses here to be honest. They just want out. Their belligerence is such that, nothing less than no deal would be a suitable outcome. Brexiteers don't care about the sinking pound, they think that is a good thing for some reason. Despite the fact we are net importers. So we need to get a deal. The issue is we seem to still be in 'cake and eat it mode'. And the EU are (rightly so) saying that the only way to get all the benefits of being in the EU... is to be in the EU. -Matt The pound is not sinking as you put it, it dropped by around 10% after the vote and has settled around 15% since and despite the hysteria about no deal is quite stable at the moment. THat has pros and cons depending on which part of the economy youre in. There will be a deal in place, even the EU have said there will be to ensure planes still fly, will that deal include a trade deal?who knows it will depend on who is in charge of the EU decision, business will want a deal as we do, the politicians wont as they cant allow us to have the benefits of the EU without all the obligations. I dont think there will be the all singing and dancing deal that some are calling for but there will be lots of agreements covering the day to day life of things, every single aggrement that I have had any knowledge of with the EU has been done at the last minute or often the next day, this will be no different,every difficulty that you and other remainers mention affects both sides so it will be sorted, for instance can you imagine the rage the spanish gov would face if every uk tourist couldnt get there due to the eu suddenly saying they wont accept uk planes and pilots, or the french when they cant sell us their dairy products or the germans their cars. Reality will happen" Yes, exactly, "lots of little agreements". all over the place. That all still need to be negotiated. In the next 182 days. And yet still our government doesn't seem to have the foggiest what it wants. And the sum of which will be more hassle, red tape and cost than what we currently have. Well done. -Matt | |||
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" Yes, exactly, "lots of little agreements". all over the place. That all still need to be negotiated. In the next 182 days. And yet still our government doesn't seem to have the foggiest what it wants. And the sum of which will be more hassle, red tape and cost than what we currently have. Well done. -Matt" What will be so hard to agree, "yes mr EU we recognise your plane safety standards and maintenance and pilot qualifications as they are the same as yesterday, yes MR UK we do the same" Ok guys down the pub thats sorted, keep flying. Not hard is it, unless of course someone wants to make it hard and is that the EU or the UK, you know in your heart its the EU, has anyone from the UK gov or ERG said we shouldnt recognise these things? | |||
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" Yes, exactly, "lots of little agreements". all over the place. That all still need to be negotiated. In the next 182 days. And yet still our government doesn't seem to have the foggiest what it wants. And the sum of which will be more hassle, red tape and cost than what we currently have. Well done. -Matt What will be so hard to agree, "yes mr EU we recognise your plane safety standards and maintenance and pilot qualifications as they are the same as yesterday, yes MR UK we do the same" Ok guys down the pub thats sorted, keep flying. Not hard is it, unless of course someone wants to make it hard and is that the EU or the UK, you know in your heart its the EU, has anyone from the UK gov or ERG said we shouldnt recognise these things? " Yes, sorry, my bad. It will be simple. I heard the CAA were looking for staff to do the safety audits, maybe you should give them a call as sounds like you've got it sorted. -Matt | |||
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" What will be so hard to agree, "yes mr EU we recognise your plane safety standards and maintenance and pilot qualifications as they are the same as yesterday, yes MR UK we do the same" Ok guys down the pub thats sorted, keep flying. Not hard is it, unless of course someone wants to make it hard and is that the EU or the UK, you know in your heart its the EU, has anyone from the UK gov or ERG said we shouldnt recognise these things? " You need to find a fix for the Irish border first. | |||
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"things? Yes, sorry, my bad. It will be simple. I heard the CAA were looking for staff to do the safety audits, maybe you should give them a call as sounds like you've got it sorted. -Matt" I just looked at their website for vacancies doesnt look like they are doing as you suggest | |||
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" What will be so hard to agree, "yes mr EU we recognise your plane safety standards and maintenance and pilot qualifications as they are the same as yesterday, yes MR UK we do the same" Ok guys down the pub thats sorted, keep flying. Not hard is it, unless of course someone wants to make it hard and is that the EU or the UK, you know in your heart its the EU, has anyone from the UK gov or ERG said we shouldnt recognise these things? You need to find a fix for the Irish border first. " Yes that appears to be an obstacle in Ireland but not sure why its an issue with plane safety etc, it is of course the last resort of the desparate remainers to claim a few nut cases will return to violence when all their other arguments to stop brexit fail | |||
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" Yes that appears to be an obstacle in Ireland but not sure why its an issue with plane safety etc, it is of course the last resort of the desparate remainers to claim a few nut cases will return to violence when all their other arguments to stop brexit fail" Quite simply, because it is all part of a negotiation that is very very broad in its scope. The EU, acting in the interests of Ireland, has made it a priority. Expect Spain to do the same with Gibraltar. You need a strong hand to negotiate anything with the EU. The UK has tried to fracture the unity of the EU27 by sending various royals and ministers off to various capitals. It's been Britain's favoured tactic for centuries - divide and rule. The EU knows it, the EU27 know it and none has strayed one inch from the negotiating position agreed at the outset by the EU27. Which, put simply, is to protect the integrity of the single market and its four indivisible freedoms, and uphold the Good Friday Agreement. So now the UK finds itself up against it, unable to puncture any holes in the opponent. The chequers plan never stood a chance because it would drive a coach and horses through the principles of the single market. Still, we'll have blue passports to look forward to . . . | |||
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"And do you really really think they'll do that without thinking that is a bit of a stupid thing to do. Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face springs to mind. I was on Zante last week (Lucky me) Every business and I mean every business there is totally dependent on British custom. What do you think would happen to the thousands of small business's dependent on our custom if suddenly because of a stinking pound we couldn't afford to go there. Their people would be up in arms. I'm quite happy to have a stacation for a couple of years if necessary. Honest peeps are we not just panicking a bit here ? Come on, have a bit of british, stiff upper lip and stop pandering to the doomsday sooth sayers. By all means try and get an agreement Mrs May but don't totally knuckle under like JC wants us too. Pheweeeeeeeee The thing is, it is not what they (our govt, I presume you mean?) do, but more what they *don't* do. By March 2019 we need to have an agreement in place. Some hardliners don't want that. They think that crashing out without an agreement is the right thing to do. They don't care what it means to businesses in Zante, or even when it means to businesses here to be honest. They just want out. Their belligerence is such that, nothing less than no deal would be a suitable outcome. Brexiteers don't care about the sinking pound, they think that is a good thing for some reason. Despite the fact we are net importers. So we need to get a deal. The issue is we seem to still be in 'cake and eat it mode'. And the EU are (rightly so) saying that the only way to get all the benefits of being in the EU... is to be in the EU. -Matt" Currency movements are not a one way ticket . Currently a competitive exchange rate makes our exports a lot more attractive and anyone remitting money from abroad to the UK also benefits . It is not a question of not caring about the sinking pound , it is simply a case of recognising that there are swings and roundabouts . Crashing out without a deal simply means that we revert to wto terms . We will still be members of Europe buy simply trading on slightly different terms. A significant advantage of leaving with no deal is the saving on our 50 billion exit fee. As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . | |||
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" Yes that appears to be an obstacle in Ireland but not sure why its an issue with plane safety etc, it is of course the last resort of the desparate remainers to claim a few nut cases will return to violence when all their other arguments to stop brexit fail Quite simply, because it is all part of a negotiation that is very very broad in its scope. The EU, acting in the interests of Ireland, has made it a priority. Expect Spain to do the same with Gibraltar. You need a strong hand to negotiate anything with the EU. The UK has tried to fracture the unity of the EU27 by sending various royals and ministers off to various capitals. It's been Britain's favoured tactic for centuries - divide and rule. The EU knows it, the EU27 know it and none has strayed one inch from the negotiating position agreed at the outset by the EU27. Which, put simply, is to protect the integrity of the single market and its four indivisible freedoms, and uphold the Good Friday Agreement. So now the UK finds itself up against it, unable to puncture any holes in the opponent. The chequers plan never stood a chance because it would drive a coach and horses through the principles of the single market. Still, we'll have blue passports to look forward to . . . " Well I guess if that is what it turns out to be then there are going to be some very unhappy people in all 28 EU countries, all because of the politicians that are more concerned with "their" project than the citizens, yet again a remainer is admitting that its the EU that is playing silly buggers and refusing to agree with things that have nothing to do with the single market or customs union but which are common sense and in the real interests of both sides | |||
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"Sterling is cheap as turds ... The collapse of foreign investment in a currency that is as cheap as turds shows how pathetic the UK economy is under tory control " Try using google and see what all those experts were saying about the value of the pound pre brexit vote,as for investment some ways of working it out say it is a lot down others say its up, but hey when do economists ever agree | |||
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" As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. ." You do know that every single agreement the UK currently uses to trade with the whole world will collapse on March 29? The only trade agreement the EU loses is the one with the UK. I think that accounts for something like 8 per cent of total EU27 exports. In the case of the UK, it is 100 per cent that is affected. | |||
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" As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . You do know that every single agreement the UK currently uses to trade with the whole world will collapse on March 29? The only trade agreement the EU loses is the one with the UK. I think that accounts for something like 8 per cent of total EU27 exports. In the case of the UK, it is 100 per cent that is affected. " The only trouble with your figure is that we dont have agreements with every country the US being one for example, sounds like your getting more desparate by the minute | |||
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" yet again a remainer is admitting that its the EU that is playing silly buggers and refusing to agree with things that have nothing to do with the single market or customs union but which are common sense and in the real interests of both sides" The UK and the EU both agreed at the outset that "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed". So your silly buggers remark applies both ways. | |||
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" The only trouble with your figure is that we dont have agreements with every country the US being one for example, sounds like your getting more desparate by the minute" The EU does. We leave the EU and we leave those agreements. | |||
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"Irrefutable fact that foreign investment is at an all-time low .... So much for cheap shit Sterling" Not according to the world bank | |||
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"As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. ." *sigh* Pat, we've been over this plenty of times before. And still you seem to be unable to understand that is it not the import/export ratio that is the problem, it is the amount that other trade partner makes up of your overall trade. Let me try an analogy for you to see if we can get you to understand this one last time. Let's suppose a cat and an elephant decide to throw something at each other. the cat has a cricket ball, and the elephant has a golf ball. You think that because the cat has the bigger, heavier implement that it will hurt the elephant more. But the elepant is significantly bigger, and the impact will be less noticed. whilst the golf ball might be smaller, it will have a bigger impact when it hits the cat. We are the cat The EU is the elephant Do you get it yet? -Matt | |||
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"According to the world Bank, brexit sucks balls big time" Even the Daily Mail has had to come out and call out the fact that we are having our worst six month's growth since 2011, amit Brexit fears. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6218099/Britains-economy-suffers-worst-six-month-growth-2011.html When even the Daily Mail has started to report the economy is not doing well, I'm sure even Pat will have to take notice. -Matt | |||
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"According to the world Bank, brexit sucks balls big time" According to anyone who knows anything, brexit sucks balls big time. | |||
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"If it happens just shows you how petty the eu are.UK has said they will except eu pilot licenses etc and what has been excepted for decades won't be accepted by them the day we leave? The UK is withdrawing from the aviation arrangements of the EU. Those are legal frameworks, enshrined in law, that will no longer apply to the UK after March 29. Did you not know what you were voting to leave when you cast your vote? The EU hasn't altered any rule. It is the UK that is choosing to walk away. There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? The UK has been undertaking legislation changes to accommodate the many changes that could be needed at the conclusion of EU withdrawal. Typically creating legislation takes many months of planning and work - not to mention the high costs involved - whilst also potentially meaning that other urgent/emergency needs are displaced. You may also need each member state to undertake similar costly work. You mentioned the concept of something getting 'amend'ed, but perhaps have overlooked the volume of changes, processes and laws, with 28 countries involved, on the assumption that at 1 second past midnight on the first day, it's all been completed. It's worth thinking about some of the change management processes that are undertaken just within small organisations - perhaps you have been responsible for implementation of such activities? Now factor that upwards to an interconnected organisation of 28 countries, that isn't only subject to its own laws and agreements but also with those of the rest of the world, that are different when one country disconnects. Many of these international affairs also relate to interconnect costs which total $billions. Nods and winks don't cut it when huge risks and costs are involved This is the bit I think people just seem to be blindly ignorant of, or purposefully ignoring. If you just take a single example of car insurance... pretty much everybody with a car will have a car insurance policy that will have some wording in it that speak about your coverage in the EU. Now that could change. Again, we don't know. So the insurance companies can't change it now. As they don't know what the change will be. I guess the best they can do is put in some clause saying "we don't know". So they have to re-write all of their insurance contacts to their customers. What is my right as a consumer? I bought a car insurance policy and that covers me to drive in the EU and I paid a certain amount for it. If things change, what will happen to my policy? Whatever deal we strike will have some impact on that cover and those rights. What happens if my rights are now less? Do I get a refund? Do I need a new insurance policy to now cover whatever the new 'deal' (assuming there is one)? Whatever it is, every single car insurance company is going to be re-drafting T&Cs as a result. Which will need lawyers to do it, and the related admin time/money to get them all distributed etc. That is just *one* example, and very much simplified, in *one* industry. No doubt it is *much* more complex than that, as those insurance policies will be underwritten by bigger insurance companies, and there will be changes there. What if one of those underwriters is not based in the UK? That is a financial service being sold across the border we will now have. My son has a guide dog. He has travelled to France a number of times in the past couple of years. Will he be able to now? From what I have read it is now going to be a pain in the arse for him to go. Just another example. -Matt This from the MIB...you may need a 'green card' - (last time I got one, I did it over the phone, took about 5 minutes from what I can remember, was cheap and easy. You present it at the same time as your passport). "Preserving the current system post-Brexit should be achievable and encouraged given that there are already other non-EEA countries which are no longer ‘Green Card Compulsory’. To maintain this system, the UK will need to keep the requirement for compulsory motor cover within the EEA and ‘third countries’ in the Road Traffic Act and MIB will need to remain signatory to an international Multilateral Agreement. It is also likely that there will be a requirement for the European Commission to implement a decision sanctioning no Green Cards and border checks between the UK and the EEA. This from Disability UK Pet travel - guide and assistance dogs Scenarios vary according how the EU classifies the UK. The UK becomes a ‘third country’, linked to a country’s animal health status. It could have one of three catgorisations: Part 1 listed, Part 2 listed or ‘unlisted’. On arrival in the EU, pet owners travelling with their pet would still be required to report to a Travellers’ Point of Entry. Part 1: Changes needed to documentation but no change for pet owners from what they currently need to do in terms of health preparations. Part 2: Before a dog could travel from the UK to an EU country for the first time, it would need to be taken to an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least 21 days in advance to ensure the dog has a microchip and rabies vaccination. The OV would issue a health certificate. This would be valid for ten days after the date of issue for entry into the EU, and for four months of onward travel within the EU. Health certificates would have to be issued for each trip to the EU. Unlisted: You would need to discuss preparations for your dog’s travel with an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least four months in advance of the date you wish to travel. You would need to prove your dog is effectively vaccinated against rabies. If your dog has never had a vaccination or it is not up to date you will need to have a blood test 30 days after the vaccination followed by a further three-month waiting period before you can travel with your dog. So yes, your son will be able to travel. Last time we took our dog, we went to the Vet several months in advance to find out what we had to do....so not that much different really. Exactly. Thank you for taking the time to post supporting material to my argument. It was late and I didn't. -Matt I also said it's not as difficukt as you make out. People will still be able to get car insurance, and your son will still be able to take his guide dog to the EU. No, if you read what I wrote I said that there is going to be a colossal amount of work involved in updating all the paperwork, legal documents, contracts, etc for everything. I gave just one example of one industry and said to imagine scaling that up to everything in all the other industries. And yes, as you pointed out, it could make it significantly harder for my son to go over to France now. -Matt" I didn't say it's going to make it significantly harder.... I said it's no big deal. You just have to plan for it. But if you're incapable of that, then that's your problem and no one else's. You want to look at the dark side and doom and gloom, then that's up to you, but probably more a reflection of you than of anythimg else. | |||
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"As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . *sigh* Pat, we've been over this plenty of times before. And still you seem to be unable to understand that is it not the import/export ratio that is the problem, it is the amount that other trade partner makes up of your overall trade. Let me try an analogy for you to see if we can get you to understand this one last time. Let's suppose a cat and an elephant decide to throw something at each other. the cat has a cricket ball, and the elephant has a golf ball. You think that because the cat has the bigger, heavier implement that it will hurt the elephant more. But the elepant is significantly bigger, and the impact will be less noticed. whilst the golf ball might be smaller, it will have a bigger impact when it hits the cat. We are the cat The EU is the elephant Do you get it yet? -Matt" Fucken brilliant | |||
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"And do you really really think they'll do that without thinking that is a bit of a stupid thing to do. Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face springs to mind. I was on Zante last week (Lucky me) Every business and I mean every business there is totally dependent on British custom. What do you think would happen to the thousands of small business's dependent on our custom if suddenly because of a stinking pound we couldn't afford to go there. Their people would be up in arms. I'm quite happy to have a stacation for a couple of years if necessary. Honest peeps are we not just panicking a bit here ? Come on, have a bit of british, stiff upper lip and stop pandering to the doomsday sooth sayers. By all means try and get an agreement Mrs May but don't totally knuckle under like JC wants us too. Pheweeeeeeeee The thing is, it is not what they (our govt, I presume you mean?) do, but more what they *don't* do. By March 2019 we need to have an agreement in place. Some hardliners don't want that. They think that crashing out without an agreement is the right thing to do. They don't care what it means to businesses in Zante, or even when it means to businesses here to be honest. They just want out. Their belligerence is such that, nothing less than no deal would be a suitable outcome. Brexiteers don't care about the sinking pound, they think that is a good thing for some reason. Despite the fact we are net importers. So we need to get a deal. The issue is we seem to still be in 'cake and eat it mode'. And the EU are (rightly so) saying that the only way to get all the benefits of being in the EU... is to be in the EU. -Matt Currency movements are not a one way ticket . Currently a competitive exchange rate makes our exports a lot more attractive and anyone remitting money from abroad to the UK also benefits . It is not a question of not caring about the sinking pound , it is simply a case of recognising that there are swings and roundabouts . Crashing out without a deal simply means that we revert to wto terms . We will still be members of Europe buy simply trading on slightly different terms. A significant advantage of leaving with no deal is the saving on our 50 billion exit fee. As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. ." They need us more than we need them? Are you soft? | |||
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"And do you really really think they'll do that without thinking that is a bit of a stupid thing to do. Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face springs to mind. I was on Zante last week (Lucky me) Every business and I mean every business there is totally dependent on British custom. What do you think would happen to the thousands of small business's dependent on our custom if suddenly because of a stinking pound we couldn't afford to go there. Their people would be up in arms. I'm quite happy to have a stacation for a couple of years if necessary. Honest peeps are we not just panicking a bit here ? Come on, have a bit of british, stiff upper lip and stop pandering to the doomsday sooth sayers. By all means try and get an agreement Mrs May but don't totally knuckle under like JC wants us too. Pheweeeeeeeee The thing is, it is not what they (our govt, I presume you mean?) do, but more what they *don't* do. By March 2019 we need to have an agreement in place. Some hardliners don't want that. They think that crashing out without an agreement is the right thing to do. They don't care what it means to businesses in Zante, or even when it means to businesses here to be honest. They just want out. Their belligerence is such that, nothing less than no deal would be a suitable outcome. Brexiteers don't care about the sinking pound, they think that is a good thing for some reason. Despite the fact we are net importers. So we need to get a deal. The issue is we seem to still be in 'cake and eat it mode'. And the EU are (rightly so) saying that the only way to get all the benefits of being in the EU... is to be in the EU. -Matt Currency movements are not a one way ticket . Currently a competitive exchange rate makes our exports a lot more attractive and anyone remitting money from abroad to the UK also benefits . It is not a question of not caring about the sinking pound , it is simply a case of recognising that there are swings and roundabouts . Crashing out without a deal simply means that we revert to wto terms . We will still be members of Europe buy simply trading on slightly different terms. A significant advantage of leaving with no deal is the saving on our 50 billion exit fee. As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . They need us more than we need them? Are you soft?" Just being realistic. I cannot see any business wanting to lose on of its biggest and most important customers. | |||
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"As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . *sigh* Pat, we've been over this plenty of times before. And still you seem to be unable to understand that is it not the import/export ratio that is the problem, it is the amount that other trade partner makes up of your overall trade. Let me try an analogy for you to see if we can get you to understand this one last time. Let's suppose a cat and an elephant decide to throw something at each other. the cat has a cricket ball, and the elephant has a golf ball. You think that because the cat has the bigger, heavier implement that it will hurt the elephant more. But the elepant is significantly bigger, and the impact will be less noticed. whilst the golf ball might be smaller, it will have a bigger impact when it hits the cat. We are the cat The EU is the elephant Do you get it yet? -Matt" . Different people have different opinions and base then on different reasons. I fully understand your analogy and thank you for taking the time to explain. However I do not accept the logic behind it. Mine is based on the performance of various companies within the FTSE 350 and any concerns that directors have. Reverting to trading on wto terms will hardly make much difference. I monitor the criteria on which I make my decision daily. | |||
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"Unlisted: You would need to discuss preparations for your dog’s travel with an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least four months in advance of the date you wish to travel. You would need to prove your dog is effectively vaccinated against rabies. If your dog has never had a vaccination or it is not up to date you will need to have a blood test 30 days after the vaccination followed by a further three-month waiting period before you can travel with your dog. So yes, your son will be able to travel. Last time we took our dog, we went to the Vet several months in advance to find out what we had to do....so not that much different really. Exactly. Thank you for taking the time to post supporting material to my argument. It was late and I didn't. -Matt I also said it's not as difficukt as you make out. People will still be able to get car insurance, and your son will still be able to take his guide dog to the EU. No, if you read what I wrote I said that there is going to be a colossal amount of work involved in updating all the paperwork, legal documents, contracts, etc for everything. I gave just one example of one industry and said to imagine scaling that up to everything in all the other industries. And yes, as you pointed out, it could make it significantly harder for my son to go over to France now. -Matt I didn't say it's going to make it significantly harder.... I said it's no big deal. You just have to plan for it. But if you're incapable of that, then that's your problem and no one else's. You want to look at the dark side and doom and gloom, then that's up to you, but probably more a reflection of you than of anythimg else." No you detailed 3 scenarios. We don't know which one it is. One of those scenarios is making it significantly harder. So it could be significantly harder. Yes, we will plan for it. But it could still be significantly harder. -Matt | |||
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"And do you really really think they'll do that without thinking that is a bit of a stupid thing to do. Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face springs to mind. I was on Zante last week (Lucky me) Every business and I mean every business there is totally dependent on British custom. What do you think would happen to the thousands of small business's dependent on our custom if suddenly because of a stinking pound we couldn't afford to go there. Their people would be up in arms. I'm quite happy to have a stacation for a couple of years if necessary. Honest peeps are we not just panicking a bit here ? Come on, have a bit of british, stiff upper lip and stop pandering to the doomsday sooth sayers. By all means try and get an agreement Mrs May but don't totally knuckle under like JC wants us too. Pheweeeeeeeee The thing is, it is not what they (our govt, I presume you mean?) do, but more what they *don't* do. By March 2019 we need to have an agreement in place. Some hardliners don't want that. They think that crashing out without an agreement is the right thing to do. They don't care what it means to businesses in Zante, or even when it means to businesses here to be honest. They just want out. Their belligerence is such that, nothing less than no deal would be a suitable outcome. Brexiteers don't care about the sinking pound, they think that is a good thing for some reason. Despite the fact we are net importers. So we need to get a deal. The issue is we seem to still be in 'cake and eat it mode'. And the EU are (rightly so) saying that the only way to get all the benefits of being in the EU... is to be in the EU. -Matt Currency movements are not a one way ticket . Currently a competitive exchange rate makes our exports a lot more attractive and anyone remitting money from abroad to the UK also benefits . It is not a question of not caring about the sinking pound , it is simply a case of recognising that there are swings and roundabouts . Crashing out without a deal simply means that we revert to wto terms . We will still be members of Europe buy simply trading on slightly different terms. A significant advantage of leaving with no deal is the saving on our 50 billion exit fee. As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . They need us more than we need them? Are you soft? Just being realistic. I cannot see any business wanting to lose on of its biggest and most important customers. " Why can't you see that? I can see an entire country that seems to want to lose one of its biggest and most important customers. Why can't you see a business doing the same? -Matt | |||
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"As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . *sigh* Pat, we've been over this plenty of times before. And still you seem to be unable to understand that is it not the import/export ratio that is the problem, it is the amount that other trade partner makes up of your overall trade. Let me try an analogy for you to see if we can get you to understand this one last time. Let's suppose a cat and an elephant decide to throw something at each other. the cat has a cricket ball, and the elephant has a golf ball. You think that because the cat has the bigger, heavier implement that it will hurt the elephant more. But the elepant is significantly bigger, and the impact will be less noticed. whilst the golf ball might be smaller, it will have a bigger impact when it hits the cat. We are the cat The EU is the elephant Do you get it yet? -Matt . Different people have different opinions and base then on different reasons. I fully understand your analogy and thank you for taking the time to explain. However I do not accept the logic behind it. Mine is based on the performance of various companies within the FTSE 350 and any concerns that directors have. Reverting to trading on wto terms will hardly make much difference. I monitor the criteria on which I make my decision daily. " If you can't comprehend logic, then that explains a lot Pat. Everyone can have their own opinions, that is fair enough, but trying to reason with someone who can't grasp basic logic is impossible. I'm glad you are looking at the FTSE 350 and what the directors are saying. So you will know that the FTSE 350 has been on a pretty clear downward trend the last 6 months. We see every day another business come out and say this is a clusterfuck and they are worried about it. Even the Daily Mail has had to come out to report on the ONS figures that our economy has had it's worst 6 months since 2011 due to a fall in business investment and consumer spending as a result of uncertainty around Brexit. -Matt | |||
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"Irrefutable fact that foreign investment is at an all-time low .... So much for cheap shit Sterling" Irrefutable fact that London was the leading capital city in Europe for tech investment last year in 2017 (after we voted leave). London had more tech investment in 2017 than Dublin, Berlin and Paris combined. | |||
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"Irrefutable fact that foreign investment is at an all-time low .... So much for cheap shit Sterling Irrefutable fact that London was the leading capital city in Europe for tech investment last year in 2017 (after we voted leave). London had more tech investment in 2017 than Dublin, Berlin and Paris combined. " Are you still flogging this dead horse? You must be the only person in the country still arguing that Brexit will be in some way beneficial. This horse is long dead, the corpse has rotten away to dust. | |||
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"As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . *sigh* Pat, we've been over this plenty of times before. And still you seem to be unable to understand that is it not the import/export ratio that is the problem, it is the amount that other trade partner makes up of your overall trade. Let me try an analogy for you to see if we can get you to understand this one last time. Let's suppose a cat and an elephant decide to throw something at each other. the cat has a cricket ball, and the elephant has a golf ball. You think that because the cat has the bigger, heavier implement that it will hurt the elephant more. But the elepant is significantly bigger, and the impact will be less noticed. whilst the golf ball might be smaller, it will have a bigger impact when it hits the cat. We are the cat The EU is the elephant Do you get it yet? -Matt" That makes the EU elephant much more slow and cumbersome, slower to react and is bigger so much more likely to get hit. The cat is more nimble, agile, with much faster reflexes and is able to adapt much more quickly to changing situations and is less likely to be hit. We've had this discussion before on here, that the EU is very slow and cumbersome, it takes them ages to do trade deals while 28 member states squabble and haggle like rats in a sack amongst each other for their own interests in what they want out of trade deals. End result none of the EU28 get what they want and the whole thing is a big compromise. This was highlighted recently when the new Italian government refused to ratify the EU/Canada trade deal because certain parts of the deal were not in Italy's national interest. As a new independent country the UK will be able to do trade deals much more quickly on its own, won't have to compromise or haggle with other EU member states and can pursue trade deals which are 100% in our own national interest. We'll be much more nimble and agile and quicker to adapt to changing situations without having to consult 27 other member states In the European parliament. We also won't be on the hook to bail out other EU member states if they get into financial difficulty. Also as the UK is 5th largest economy in the world there will only be 4 other larger economies than our own to negotiate with, all the rest have smaller economies than us and so using your own logic will have less bargaining power than us. | |||
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"Irrefutable fact that foreign investment is at an all-time low .... So much for cheap shit Sterling Irrefutable fact that London was the leading capital city in Europe for tech investment last year in 2017 (after we voted leave). London had more tech investment in 2017 than Dublin, Berlin and Paris combined. Are you still flogging this dead horse? You must be the only person in the country still arguing that Brexit will be in some way beneficial. This horse is long dead, the corpse has rotten away to dust." I'm just stating facts Dave have a look on Google If you don't believe it. | |||
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" As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . You do know that every single agreement the UK currently uses to trade with the whole world will collapse on March 29? The only trade agreement the EU loses is the one with the UK. I think that accounts for something like 8 per cent of total EU27 exports. In the case of the UK, it is 100 per cent that is affected. " The UK economy is equivalent to 19 of the EU27 member states economies combined. If the EU does not get our £40 billion divorce bill then there will be a massive black hole in the EU's finances. The EU will be running on a deficit not a surplus and with the Italian banking and Eurozone crisis still looming they can ill afford to be in that situation. | |||
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"Foreign investment in the UK rose by 6% in 2017 compared to 2016. However, the UK's European market share of foreign investment is downwards. 21% in 2015, 19% in 2016 and 18% in 2017. Foreign investors see Germany (relative stability and large biggest marketplace) and France (Macron effect) as bring safer places to invest in." Macron isn't quite proving to be the saviour France had hoped for though. He currently has lower poll ratings than his predecessor Hollande. | |||
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"Hold their nerve is probably what is needed. I can't imagine Junker and Barnier walking away from 39 Billion quid. All they have to do is agree to disagree, We stump up the 39 Billion and can is kicked into long grass till 2020, giving business etc another 2 years to sort it out under conditions of hard or soft brexit. There I've sorted it
You mean we agree to extend the Article 50 deadline by another couple of years? Well, yes, that is certainly an option. But the rabid hard leavers would not be in favour of that. And actually I doubt many others would be either, as just leaves us in limbo for even longer. Also, as far as I know, we'd need to get the rest of the EU27 to vote in agreement on that idea. And I imagine many of them are sick of the whole process by now.
-Matt"Leaving on no deal as you call it is a bit of a misnomer though as it's leaving on WTO rules. So no deal is actually a WTO deal. | |||
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"As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . *sigh* Pat, we've been over this plenty of times before. And still you seem to be unable to understand that is it not the import/export ratio that is the problem, it is the amount that other trade partner makes up of your overall trade. Let me try an analogy for you to see if we can get you to understand this one last time. Let's suppose a cat and an elephant decide to throw something at each other. the cat has a cricket ball, and the elephant has a golf ball. You think that because the cat has the bigger, heavier implement that it will hurt the elephant more. But the elepant is significantly bigger, and the impact will be less noticed. whilst the golf ball might be smaller, it will have a bigger impact when it hits the cat. We are the cat The EU is the elephant Do you get it yet? -Matt . Different people have different opinions and base then on different reasons. I fully understand your analogy and thank you for taking the time to explain. However I do not accept the logic behind it. Mine is based on the performance of various companies within the FTSE 350 and any concerns that directors have. Reverting to trading on wto terms will hardly make much difference. I monitor the criteria on which I make my decision daily. " the performance of the ftse and the concerns of directors are very different things. While our markets have been doing well, I’m not hearing many positive noises from companies. And keep in mind companies dontvtend to break cover until they really have to ... | |||
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" There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? because of that "all treaties cease to exist" thing that happens if a no deal happens.... which means that the UK would no longer be a party to the European Aviation Safety Agreement (EASA) and the EU-US openskies agreement.... as i tried explaining before... its not a EU thing... its an international law thing!!! Civilian planes are not allowed to fly if maintenance and safety records are not valid... for example... north korean planes are not allowed to fly over EU airspace, because their maintainance records are so bad they cant get saftey certificates UK safety and maintenance records would no longer be valid as they wouldn't be recognised by anyone.... its not just the eu that wouldn't recognise them... it would be every country on the planet! so for example... until the us recognised safety and maintenance records a uk plane couldn't fly to the us... or the canadians with their authorities and so on and so on........ the UK would cease to be party to any agreements that the EU had so their their safety and maintainance records are recognised by other countries... the example i gave for a car is probably most apt... you cannot drive a car if you don't have insurance, you cannot get insurance if you don't have a valid MOT, and you can't get a valid MOT if it is not recognised by anyone....... the same is for ferries..... the same is for the channel tunnel.... the same will be for any UK bus/coach travelling across to the continent..... The Independent newspaper had a story on No-Deal Brexit and Travel. Here are some quotes from it: Flights to and from the EU The government says it would envisage granting permission to EU airlines to continue to operate and that it would expect EU countries to reciprocate, but the EU hasn’t confirmed this. UK-licensed airlines would need two permissions in order to keep flying to and from the EU: one from the national authorities of each individual state, each of which has its own processes, and one from the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), the European Union Agency responsible for civil aviation safety, giving them safety authorisation. The UK “would expect the recognition of equivalent safety standards to be on a reciprocal basis” – but again, the EU hasn’t confirmed that this would happen. Airport Security In the event of no deal the existing airport security regulations and procedures will be retained in domestic law under the EU Withdrawal Act. However, although the plans say “there is no reason for the UK’s aviation security regime not to be recognised by the EU as equivalent, which would mean no additional security restrictions would need to be imposed by either the EU or the UK,” the EU is saying something rather different. In the preparedness notices issued by the European Commission, they’ve indicated that they will not recognise the UK aviation security system. The technical rules and standards of EU aviation safety legislation would be retained and applied by the UK as domestic law, through the provisions of the European Union Withdrawal Act 2018. Aviation Safety If there’s no deal, the automatic mutual recognition of aviation safety certificates, provided for under the EASA system, would cease to apply to the UK. The government has said all aircraft certificates and other documents that are valid and issued by organisations approved in accordance with EASA requirements prior to exit day would remain valid after Brexit. However, the EU “has indicated that it would take a different approach to the UK”, rather than offering a reciprocal deal. The information notices issued by the European Commission say that certificates previously issued by the CAA before exit day would no longer be automatically accepted in the EASA system after 29 March 2019. Did anyone else spot the recurring theme that the UK government are being helpful and the EU are being downright awkward?" Yes there is a recurring theme and that theme is that the UK is accepting EU regulations, rules and jurisdiction without even a whimper in the absolute knowledge that the issues are so complicated that Brexiteers will not actually notice that far from taking back control, the UK will be accepting EU rules that it will in future have no say in making. And by the way, it is not just in aviation that the UK has made these assertions. The assertion was also made that on the UK side of the border people and goods would continue to waved through and the hope was that this would also be the case on the EU side - not exactly taking control of our borders is it? | |||
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" There's no request to change any rule on aviation in brexit so why can't the EU just amend it so it's still enshrined in law after March, aren't the EU just showing themselves up as being petty over this situation? And what has aviation to do with leaving a political block? because of that "all treaties cease to exist" thing that happens if a no deal happens.... which means that the UK would no longer be a party to the European Aviation Safety Agreement (EASA) and the EU-US openskies agreement.... as i tried explaining before... its not a EU thing... its an international law thing!!! Civilian planes are not allowed to fly if maintenance and safety records are not valid... for example... north korean planes are not allowed to fly over EU airspace, because their maintainance records are so bad they cant get saftey certificates UK safety and maintenance records would no longer be valid as they wouldn't be recognised by anyone.... its not just the eu that wouldn't recognise them... it would be every country on the planet! so for example... until the us recognised safety and maintenance records a uk plane couldn't fly to the us... or the canadians with their authorities and so on and so on........ the UK would cease to be party to any agreements that the EU had so their their safety and maintainance records are recognised by other countries... the example i gave for a car is probably most apt... you cannot drive a car if you don't have insurance, you cannot get insurance if you don't have a valid MOT, and you can't get a valid MOT if it is not recognised by anyone....... the same is for ferries..... the same is for the channel tunnel.... the same will be for any UK bus/coach travelling across to the continent..... The Independent newspaper had a story on No-Deal Brexit and Travel. Here are some quotes from it: Flights to and from the EU The government says it would envisage granting permission to EU airlines to continue to operate and that it would expect EU countries to reciprocate, but the EU hasn’t confirmed this. UK-licensed airlines would need two permissions in order to keep flying to and from the EU: one from the national authorities of each individual state, each of which has its own processes, and one from the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), the European Union Agency responsible for civil aviation safety, giving them safety authorisation. The UK “would expect the recognition of equivalent safety standards to be on a reciprocal basis” – but again, the EU hasn’t confirmed that this would happen. Airport Security In the event of no deal the existing airport security regulations and procedures will be retained in domestic law under the EU Withdrawal Act. However, although the plans say “there is no reason for the UK’s aviation security regime not to be recognised by the EU as equivalent, which would mean no additional security restrictions would need to be imposed by either the EU or the UK,” the EU is saying something rather different. In the preparedness notices issued by the European Commission, they’ve indicated that they will not recognise the UK aviation security system. The technical rules and standards of EU aviation safety legislation would be retained and applied by the UK as domestic law, through the provisions of the European Union Withdrawal Act 2018. Aviation Safety If there’s no deal, the automatic mutual recognition of aviation safety certificates, provided for under the EASA system, would cease to apply to the UK. The government has said all aircraft certificates and other documents that are valid and issued by organisations approved in accordance with EASA requirements prior to exit day would remain valid after Brexit. However, the EU “has indicated that it would take a different approach to the UK”, rather than offering a reciprocal deal. The information notices issued by the European Commission say that certificates previously issued by the CAA before exit day would no longer be automatically accepted in the EASA system after 29 March 2019. Did anyone else spot the recurring theme that the UK government are being helpful and the EU are being downright awkward?" Yes, everything I've read on the negotiations so far has brought me to the same conclusion | |||
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" Yes that appears to be an obstacle in Ireland but not sure why its an issue with plane safety etc, it is of course the last resort of the desparate remainers to claim a few nut cases will return to violence when all their other arguments to stop brexit fail Quite simply, because it is all part of a negotiation that is very very broad in its scope. The EU, acting in the interests of Ireland, has made it a priority. Expect Spain to do the same with Gibraltar. You need a strong hand to negotiate anything with the EU. The UK has tried to fracture the unity of the EU27 by sending various royals and ministers off to various capitals. It's been Britain's favoured tactic for centuries - divide and rule. The EU knows it, the EU27 know it and none has strayed one inch from the negotiating position agreed at the outset by the EU27. Which, put simply, is to protect the integrity of the single market and its four indivisible freedoms, and uphold the Good Friday Agreement. So now the UK finds itself up against it, unable to puncture any holes in the opponent. The chequers plan never stood a chance because it would drive a coach and horses through the principles of the single market. Still, we'll have blue passports to look forward to . . . " Spain was refused entry into the EU for years because of its issue with a border to Gibraltar, only when it dropped said border issue was it then granted entry. So to now bring up a similar border issue in Ireland would seem to some to be petty on the EU's part? | |||
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"I have a friend who is in the haulage business with an Irish based company. Apparently all companies such as Aldi and Lidl and others are creating hubs near ports in southern Island so that goods can Bi-pass travelling through Wales and England. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing really. Less heavy lorries on the M6 and A5 might result. Anyway another straw in the wind that things are going to change." I’m not clear exactly what you are saying? Do you mean rather than take a nice short, quick crossing at Calais via ferry or tunnel, goods are going to get a ferry across to Rosslare from Roscoff or similar, then drive over the border to NI, then get a ferry across to England? Seems an awfully long diversion? -Matt | |||
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"I have a friend who is in the haulage business with an Irish based company. Apparently all companies such as Aldi and Lidl and others are creating hubs near ports in southern Island so that goods can Bi-pass travelling through Wales and England. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing really. Less heavy lorries on the M6 and A5 might result. Anyway another straw in the wind that things are going to change. I’m not clear exactly what you are saying? Do you mean rather than take a nice short, quick crossing at Calais via ferry or tunnel, goods are going to get a ferry across to Rosslare from Roscoff or similar, then drive over the border to NI, then get a ferry across to England? Seems an awfully long diversion? -Matt" And from a very quick search, there is only one ferry company operating that route, twice a week and takes 17 hours. Even if there are more ships and companies that operate that route, 17 hours is a lot to add on just for that leg. -Matt | |||
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"This airplane thing....I'm in two minds about it. Surely there's a work around?" Yes. We could do some kind of negotiation and come up with some kind of ‘deal’. Just don’t tell the hardline brexiteers. -Matt | |||
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"Unlisted: You would need to discuss preparations for your dog’s travel with an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least four months in advance of the date you wish to travel. You would need to prove your dog is effectively vaccinated against rabies. If your dog has never had a vaccination or it is not up to date you will need to have a blood test 30 days after the vaccination followed by a further three-month waiting period before you can travel with your dog. So yes, your son will be able to travel. Last time we took our dog, we went to the Vet several months in advance to find out what we had to do....so not that much different really. Exactly. Thank you for taking the time to post supporting material to my argument. It was late and I didn't. -Matt I also said it's not as difficukt as you make out. People will still be able to get car insurance, and your son will still be able to take his guide dog to the EU. No, if you read what I wrote I said that there is going to be a colossal amount of work involved in updating all the paperwork, legal documents, contracts, etc for everything. I gave just one example of one industry and said to imagine scaling that up to everything in all the other industries. And yes, as you pointed out, it could make it significantly harder for my son to go over to France now. -Matt I didn't say it's going to make it significantly harder.... I said it's no big deal. You just have to plan for it. But if you're incapable of that, then that's your problem and no one else's. You want to look at the dark side and doom and gloom, then that's up to you, but probably more a reflection of you than of anythimg else. No you detailed 3 scenarios. We don't know which one it is. One of those scenarios is making it significantly harder. So it could be significantly harder. Yes, we will plan for it. But it could still be significantly harder. -Matt" So going to the vet 4 months before you travel makes things significantly harder? Wow... | |||
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"Unlisted: You would need to discuss preparations for your dog’s travel with an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least four months in advance of the date you wish to travel. You would need to prove your dog is effectively vaccinated against rabies. If your dog has never had a vaccination or it is not up to date you will need to have a blood test 30 days after the vaccination followed by a further three-month waiting period before you can travel with your dog. So yes, your son will be able to travel. Last time we took our dog, we went to the Vet several months in advance to find out what we had to do....so not that much different really. Exactly. Thank you for taking the time to post supporting material to my argument. It was late and I didn't. -Matt I also said it's not as difficukt as you make out. People will still be able to get car insurance, and your son will still be able to take his guide dog to the EU. No, if you read what I wrote I said that there is going to be a colossal amount of work involved in updating all the paperwork, legal documents, contracts, etc for everything. I gave just one example of one industry and said to imagine scaling that up to everything in all the other industries. And yes, as you pointed out, it could make it significantly harder for my son to go over to France now. -Matt I didn't say it's going to make it significantly harder.... I said it's no big deal. You just have to plan for it. But if you're incapable of that, then that's your problem and no one else's. You want to look at the dark side and doom and gloom, then that's up to you, but probably more a reflection of you than of anythimg else. No you detailed 3 scenarios. We don't know which one it is. One of those scenarios is making it significantly harder. So it could be significantly harder. Yes, we will plan for it. But it could still be significantly harder. -Matt So going to the vet 4 months before you travel makes things significantly harder? Wow..." Yes, actually it does. I don't know about you, but I don't plan all my trips 4 months in advance. Also, you might want to consider *why* my son has a guide dog? Go on, take a guess. I bet you'll get it right. -Matt | |||
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"I have a friend who is in the haulage business with an Irish based company. Apparently all companies such as Aldi and Lidl and others are creating hubs near ports in southern Island so that goods can Bi-pass travelling through Wales and England. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing really. Less heavy lorries on the M6 and A5 might result. Anyway another straw in the wind that things are going to change. I’m not clear exactly what you are saying? Do you mean rather than take a nice short, quick crossing at Calais via ferry or tunnel, goods are going to get a ferry across to Rosslare from Roscoff or similar, then drive over the border to NI, then get a ferry across to England? Seems an awfully long diversion? -Matt" see there was a detail in the BMW month shutdown after brexit day that may have been overlooked that people were (and still aren't talking bout) before the brexiteers scream "well they always have a month off" i will absolutely concede that, but in the BMW rationale for bringing it forward was they "think" it will take two weeks to get supply lines up and running again after disruption to the point it won't effect potential production as much as the sudden stop would have done..... the other two weeks were the interesting bit of the notice that flew under the radar, they are working on the assumption in that the channel tunnel will likely be closed (saftey and maintainance issues again) and it will take that long for the uk and france to come to cross border agreements after brexit day for it to re-open | |||
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"And do you really really think they'll do that without thinking that is a bit of a stupid thing to do. Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face springs to mind. I was on Zante last week (Lucky me) Every business and I mean every business there is totally dependent on British custom. What do you think would happen to the thousands of small business's dependent on our custom if suddenly because of a stinking pound we couldn't afford to go there. Their people would be up in arms. I'm quite happy to have a stacation for a couple of years if necessary. Honest peeps are we not just panicking a bit here ? Come on, have a bit of british, stiff upper lip and stop pandering to the doomsday sooth sayers. By all means try and get an agreement Mrs May but don't totally knuckle under like JC wants us too. Pheweeeeeeeee The thing is, it is not what they (our govt, I presume you mean?) do, but more what they *don't* do. By March 2019 we need to have an agreement in place. Some hardliners don't want that. They think that crashing out without an agreement is the right thing to do. They don't care what it means to businesses in Zante, or even when it means to businesses here to be honest. They just want out. Their belligerence is such that, nothing less than no deal would be a suitable outcome. Brexiteers don't care about the sinking pound, they think that is a good thing for some reason. Despite the fact we are net importers. So we need to get a deal. The issue is we seem to still be in 'cake and eat it mode'. And the EU are (rightly so) saying that the only way to get all the benefits of being in the EU... is to be in the EU. -Matt Currency movements are not a one way ticket . Currently a competitive exchange rate makes our exports a lot more attractive and anyone remitting money from abroad to the UK also benefits . It is not a question of not caring about the sinking pound , it is simply a case of recognising that there are swings and roundabouts . Crashing out without a deal simply means that we revert to wto terms . We will still be members of Europe buy simply trading on slightly different terms. A significant advantage of leaving with no deal is the saving on our 50 billion exit fee. As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . They need us more than we need them? Are you soft? Just being realistic. I cannot see any business wanting to lose on of its biggest and most important customers. " Despite all the predictions, the German car manufacturers arent lobbying to have the EU do a deal with the uk. The UK is a small market for many of the individual EU27 countries. Conversely, nearly 50% of our trade is with the EU27 | |||
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"I have a friend who is in the haulage business with an Irish based company. Apparently all companies such as Aldi and Lidl and others are creating hubs near ports in southern Island so that goods can Bi-pass travelling through Wales and England. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing really. Less heavy lorries on the M6 and A5 might result. Anyway another straw in the wind that things are going to change. I’m not clear exactly what you are saying? Do you mean rather than take a nice short, quick crossing at Calais via ferry or tunnel, goods are going to get a ferry across to Rosslare from Roscoff or similar, then drive over the border to NI, then get a ferry across to England? Seems an awfully long diversion? -Matt see there was a detail in the BMW month shutdown after brexit day that may have been overlooked that people were (and still aren't talking bout) before the brexiteers scream "well they always have a month off" i will absolutely concede that, but in the BMW rationale for bringing it forward was they "think" it will take two weeks to get supply lines up and running again after disruption to the point it won't effect potential production as much as the sudden stop would have done..... the other two weeks were the interesting bit of the notice that flew under the radar, they are working on the assumption in that the channel tunnel will likely be closed (saftey and maintainance issues again) and it will take that long for the uk and france to come to cross border agreements after brexit day for it to re-open" Toyota will also cease production for a period if no deal is agreed for March https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45676633 | |||
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"And do you really really think they'll do that without thinking that is a bit of a stupid thing to do. Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face springs to mind. I was on Zante last week (Lucky me) Every business and I mean every business there is totally dependent on British custom. What do you think would happen to the thousands of small business's dependent on our custom if suddenly because of a stinking pound we couldn't afford to go there. Their people would be up in arms. I'm quite happy to have a stacation for a couple of years if necessary. Honest peeps are we not just panicking a bit here ? Come on, have a bit of british, stiff upper lip and stop pandering to the doomsday sooth sayers. By all means try and get an agreement Mrs May but don't totally knuckle under like JC wants us too. Pheweeeeeeeee The thing is, it is not what they (our govt, I presume you mean?) do, but more what they *don't* do. By March 2019 we need to have an agreement in place. Some hardliners don't want that. They think that crashing out without an agreement is the right thing to do. They don't care what it means to businesses in Zante, or even when it means to businesses here to be honest. They just want out. Their belligerence is such that, nothing less than no deal would be a suitable outcome. Brexiteers don't care about the sinking pound, they think that is a good thing for some reason. Despite the fact we are net importers. So we need to get a deal. The issue is we seem to still be in 'cake and eat it mode'. And the EU are (rightly so) saying that the only way to get all the benefits of being in the EU... is to be in the EU. -Matt Currency movements are not a one way ticket . Currently a competitive exchange rate makes our exports a lot more attractive and anyone remitting money from abroad to the UK also benefits . It is not a question of not caring about the sinking pound , it is simply a case of recognising that there are swings and roundabouts . Crashing out without a deal simply means that we revert to wto terms . We will still be members of Europe buy simply trading on slightly different terms. A significant advantage of leaving with no deal is the saving on our 50 billion exit fee. As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . They need us more than we need them? Are you soft? Just being realistic. I cannot see any business wanting to lose on of its biggest and most important customers. Despite all the predictions, the German car manufacturers arent lobbying to have the EU do a deal with the uk. The UK is a small market for many of the individual EU27 countries. Conversely, nearly 50% of our trade is with the EU27" It's not quite as simple as that with automotive. 20% of German manufactured cars come to the UK, that's around 750k per annum. An increase of tariff could lose a substantial amount of these. Trump's trade war with the EU, and Germany in particular, could also result in the numbers of exported German cars being reduced. Add to this, changing markets with electric cars replacing diesel, and the emmisions scandal which could result in the recall of millions of German cars, and you have the problems mounting up. It may be that German Automotive isn't lobbying the EU but that doesn't mean that they aren't seriously worried. | |||
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"And do you really really think they'll do that without thinking that is a bit of a stupid thing to do. Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face springs to mind. I was on Zante last week (Lucky me) Every business and I mean every business there is totally dependent on British custom. What do you think would happen to the thousands of small business's dependent on our custom if suddenly because of a stinking pound we couldn't afford to go there. Their people would be up in arms. I'm quite happy to have a stacation for a couple of years if necessary. Honest peeps are we not just panicking a bit here ? Come on, have a bit of british, stiff upper lip and stop pandering to the doomsday sooth sayers. By all means try and get an agreement Mrs May but don't totally knuckle under like JC wants us too. Pheweeeeeeeee The thing is, it is not what they (our govt, I presume you mean?) do, but more what they *don't* do. By March 2019 we need to have an agreement in place. Some hardliners don't want that. They think that crashing out without an agreement is the right thing to do. They don't care what it means to businesses in Zante, or even when it means to businesses here to be honest. They just want out. Their belligerence is such that, nothing less than no deal would be a suitable outcome. Brexiteers don't care about the sinking pound, they think that is a good thing for some reason. Despite the fact we are net importers. So we need to get a deal. The issue is we seem to still be in 'cake and eat it mode'. And the EU are (rightly so) saying that the only way to get all the benefits of being in the EU... is to be in the EU. -Matt Currency movements are not a one way ticket . Currently a competitive exchange rate makes our exports a lot more attractive and anyone remitting money from abroad to the UK also benefits . It is not a question of not caring about the sinking pound , it is simply a case of recognising that there are swings and roundabouts . Crashing out without a deal simply means that we revert to wto terms . We will still be members of Europe buy simply trading on slightly different terms. A significant advantage of leaving with no deal is the saving on our 50 billion exit fee. As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . They need us more than we need them? Are you soft? Just being realistic. I cannot see any business wanting to lose on of its biggest and most important customers. Despite all the predictions, the German car manufacturers arent lobbying to have the EU do a deal with the uk. The UK is a small market for many of the individual EU27 countries. Conversely, nearly 50% of our trade is with the EU27" Most EU motor manufacturers will be dependent on certain parts supplied from the UK and we are one of their most important markets. | |||
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"Unlisted: You would need to discuss preparations for your dog’s travel with an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least four months in advance of the date you wish to travel. You would need to prove your dog is effectively vaccinated against rabies. If your dog has never had a vaccination or it is not up to date you will need to have a blood test 30 days after the vaccination followed by a further three-month waiting period before you can travel with your dog. So yes, your son will be able to travel. Last time we took our dog, we went to the Vet several months in advance to find out what we had to do....so not that much different really. Exactly. Thank you for taking the time to post supporting material to my argument. It was late and I didn't. -Matt I also said it's not as difficukt as you make out. People will still be able to get car insurance, and your son will still be able to take his guide dog to the EU. No, if you read what I wrote I said that there is going to be a colossal amount of work involved in updating all the paperwork, legal documents, contracts, etc for everything. I gave just one example of one industry and said to imagine scaling that up to everything in all the other industries. And yes, as you pointed out, it could make it significantly harder for my son to go over to France now. -Matt I didn't say it's going to make it significantly harder.... I said it's no big deal. You just have to plan for it. But if you're incapable of that, then that's your problem and no one else's. You want to look at the dark side and doom and gloom, then that's up to you, but probably more a reflection of you than of anythimg else. No you detailed 3 scenarios. We don't know which one it is. One of those scenarios is making it significantly harder. So it could be significantly harder. Yes, we will plan for it. But it could still be significantly harder. -Matt So going to the vet 4 months before you travel makes things significantly harder? Wow... Yes, actually it does. I don't know about you, but I don't plan all my trips 4 months in advance. Also, you might want to consider *why* my son has a guide dog? Go on, take a guess. I bet you'll get it right. -Matt" Planning in advance does not make it significantly harder. I would have thought that would benefit your son, actually. My wife has worked with people of all ages with a whole variety of disabilities, and has always planned months in advance when taking them away. The other thing, of course, is that it is perfectly within the EU's power to choose the easier two options, and will be completely their doing if they don't.....but you, of course, would apportion no blame or responsibility on the EU for the problem with travel that your son may find himself in. | |||
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"Unlisted: You would need to discuss preparations for your dog’s travel with an Official Veterinarian (OV) at least four months in advance of the date you wish to travel. You would need to prove your dog is effectively vaccinated against rabies. If your dog has never had a vaccination or it is not up to date you will need to have a blood test 30 days after the vaccination followed by a further three-month waiting period before you can travel with your dog. So yes, your son will be able to travel. Last time we took our dog, we went to the Vet several months in advance to find out what we had to do....so not that much different really. Exactly. Thank you for taking the time to post supporting material to my argument. It was late and I didn't. -Matt I also said it's not as difficukt as you make out. People will still be able to get car insurance, and your son will still be able to take his guide dog to the EU. No, if you read what I wrote I said that there is going to be a colossal amount of work involved in updating all the paperwork, legal documents, contracts, etc for everything. I gave just one example of one industry and said to imagine scaling that up to everything in all the other industries. And yes, as you pointed out, it could make it significantly harder for my son to go over to France now. -Matt I didn't say it's going to make it significantly harder.... I said it's no big deal. You just have to plan for it. But if you're incapable of that, then that's your problem and no one else's. You want to look at the dark side and doom and gloom, then that's up to you, but probably more a reflection of you than of anythimg else. No you detailed 3 scenarios. We don't know which one it is. One of those scenarios is making it significantly harder. So it could be significantly harder. Yes, we will plan for it. But it could still be significantly harder. -Matt So going to the vet 4 months before you travel makes things significantly harder? Wow... Yes, actually it does. I don't know about you, but I don't plan all my trips 4 months in advance. Also, you might want to consider *why* my son has a guide dog? Go on, take a guess. I bet you'll get it right. -Matt Planning in advance does not make it significantly harder. I would have thought that would benefit your son, actually. My wife has worked with people of all ages with a whole variety of disabilities, and has always planned months in advance when taking them away. The other thing, of course, is that it is perfectly within the EU's power to choose the easier two options, and will be completely their doing if they don't.....but you, of course, would apportion no blame or responsibility on the EU for the problem with travel that your son may find himself in. " Why would I blame the EU?! We are the ones that decided the leave ffs. And that is great that your wife has worked with people and planned months in advance. That really is great. That does not take away the fact that this is just another example of things that will be more difficult, time consuming, costly, or irritating about leaving the EU. -Matt | |||
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" Yes, exactly, "lots of little agreements". all over the place. That all still need to be negotiated. In the next 182 days. And yet still our government doesn't seem to have the foggiest what it wants. And the sum of which will be more hassle, red tape and cost than what we currently have. Well done. -Matt What will be so hard to agree, "yes mr EU we recognise your plane safety standards and maintenance and pilot qualifications as they are the same as yesterday, yes MR UK we do the same" Ok guys down the pub thats sorted, keep flying. Not hard is it, unless of course someone wants to make it hard and is that the EU or the UK, you know in your heart its the EU, has anyone from the UK gov or ERG said we shouldnt recognise these things? " It's not a case of anyone saying they shouldn't recognise these things. It's simply that, without a legal agreement (often called a deal) they won't be recognised. Personally I think, regardless what happens on a comprehensive trade deal, there probably will be a deal on aircraft and shipping so that the worst case scenario doesn't happen. But then an agreement is a deal, which is why we all have to accept that "no deal" is not really on the table, so let's stop talking about and start actually getting the deal we need. | |||
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" As you have pointed out we are a net importer so the EU need us more than we need them. . You do know that every single agreement the UK currently uses to trade with the whole world will collapse on March 29? The only trade agreement the EU loses is the one with the UK. I think that accounts for something like 8 per cent of total EU27 exports. In the case of the UK, it is 100 per cent that is affected. The only trouble with your figure is that we dont have agreements with every country the US being one for example, sounds like your getting more desparate by the minute" Actually we have over 20 bilateral trade agreements with the US; all of them currently through the EU. You're confusing a Free Trade Agreement with a trade agreement. | |||
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"This airplane thing....I'm in two minds about it. Surely there's a work around?" Yes. It's called "A Deal". | |||
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"I have a friend who is in the haulage business with an Irish based company. Apparently all companies such as Aldi and Lidl and others are creating hubs near ports in southern Island so that goods can Bi-pass travelling through Wales and England. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing really. Less heavy lorries on the M6 and A5 might result. Anyway another straw in the wind that things are going to change. I’m not clear exactly what you are saying? Do you mean rather than take a nice short, quick crossing at Calais via ferry or tunnel, goods are going to get a ferry across to Rosslare from Roscoff or similar, then drive over the border to NI, then get a ferry across to England? Seems an awfully long diversion? -Matt" I think he's talking about trade between Ireland and the EU. A lot of that currently goes through Dover and Holyhead. | |||
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"I have a friend who is in the haulage business with an Irish based company. Apparently all companies such as Aldi and Lidl and others are creating hubs near ports in southern Island so that goods can Bi-pass travelling through Wales and England. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing really. Less heavy lorries on the M6 and A5 might result. Anyway another straw in the wind that things are going to change. I’m not clear exactly what you are saying? Do you mean rather than take a nice short, quick crossing at Calais via ferry or tunnel, goods are going to get a ferry across to Rosslare from Roscoff or similar, then drive over the border to NI, then get a ferry across to England? Seems an awfully long diversion? -Matt I think he's talking about trade between Ireland and the EU. A lot of that currently goes through Dover and Holyhead. " The EU intends to develop dedicated ferry routes between Dublin and Cork to Antwerp and Rotterdam. This has annoyed the French, as they had hoped for a routing via Cherbourg and Roscoff, and in turn gaining millions of euros in EU development grants for these two ports. | |||
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"So if a physical boarder was reinstated in Ireland, what's the worst that could happen? " The Good Friday Agreement enables: a) unionists to feel British because of UK and Irish guarantees the status of the counties won't change without a referendum b) nationalists to feel Irish because it removed the physical barriers (the border) that existed on the island of Ireland. The British nationalists on the mainland seem not to have thought through, or do not care, about the ramifications of physically separating the Irish again by erecting barriers between them. | |||
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