"Time for the Russia/Putin apologists yo kick into gear.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-45421445
Will you need a few hours for your answers to be posted for you on the internet?  "
.
What do you want people to apologise for? |
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I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!. |
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 |
By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!."
A Russian court prosecution? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!.
A Russian court prosecution? "
We can trust the Russians to sentence their own assassins ...  |
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"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!."
Yes because they have such a sterling record of apprehending the murderers of journalists, lgbt activists and political opponents of Putin thus far dont they..
 |
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"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!.
A Russian court prosecution? "
.
I agree it's not ideal but seen as we can never extradite the two men who are wanted I don't see what other option there is?.
If nothing else it gives the Russians an international headache when we present our evidence.
|
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!.
A Russian court prosecution? .
I agree it's not ideal but seen as we can never extradite the two men who are wanted I don't see what other option there is?.
If nothing else it gives the Russians an international headache when we present our evidence.
"
Why would they agree to a trial in Russia when they deny all knowledge of everything? |
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"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!.
A Russian court prosecution? .
I agree it's not ideal but seen as we can never extradite the two men who are wanted I don't see what other option there is?.
If nothing else it gives the Russians an international headache when we present our evidence.
Why would they agree to a trial in Russia when they deny all knowledge of everything?"
.
I don't know, that's why I said it's up to may to work with them.
What other alternative is there? |
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|
By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!.
A Russian court prosecution? .
I agree it's not ideal but seen as we can never extradite the two men who are wanted I don't see what other option there is?.
If nothing else it gives the Russians an international headache when we present our evidence.
Why would they agree to a trial in Russia when they deny all knowledge of everything?.
I don't know, that's why I said it's up to may to work with them.
What other alternative is there?"
What should we concede to Russia to achieve this or how can we punish them further?
All you've really said is that "something must be done". |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
With heavy irony we have asked for a European Arrest Warrant and are asking for increased EU sanctions, but tue right wing Italian and Austrian governments are really not very keen. Not Germany either which is down to their energy choices. |
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"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!.
A Russian court prosecution? .
I agree it's not ideal but seen as we can never extradite the two men who are wanted I don't see what other option there is?.
If nothing else it gives the Russians an international headache when we present our evidence.
Why would they agree to a trial in Russia when they deny all knowledge of everything?.
I don't know, that's why I said it's up to may to work with them.
What other alternative is there?
What should we concede to Russia to achieve this or how can we punish them further?
All you've really said is that "something must be done"."
.
You can't punish "Russia" for the actions of two Russian citizens, unless they can prove Russian government involvement.
We have two guys that need to be brought to trial for crimes, under Russian constitution they cannot be extradited to a foreign court so I'd rather something be done than nothing.
What's your thinking? |
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If a citizen is part of the state apparatus then unless they both decided to go rogue its down to the state if proven, inasmuch as we are being told there will be a lot more we wont be for obvious reasons so it comes down to who one places ones trust in on the issue..
|
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"If a citizen is part of the state apparatus then unless they both decided to go rogue its down to the state if proven, inasmuch as we are being told there will be a lot more we wont be for obvious reasons so it comes down to who one places ones trust in on the issue..
"
.
I place mine in the legal system of courts, where do you place yours? |
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"If a citizen is part of the state apparatus then unless they both decided to go rogue its down to the state if proven, inasmuch as we are being told there will be a lot more we wont be for obvious reasons so it comes down to who one places ones trust in on the issue..
.
I place mine in the legal system of courts, where do you place yours?"
see above; 'if proven'.
we both know that there will never be a trial here though so again do we trust in the validity of the evidence presented with the caveats that all Governments lie eg. Iraq or do we ignore the fatal attack..
nice to actually have someone who is a leaver recognise the place our judiciary may play and not as some do to scream they are traitors..
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
It's obvious retaliation is necessary both covertly and overtly.Putin being a wealthy man and a violent man will understand an economic punishment and an agresdive violent response.
The sooner the better so they realise who they are fucking with .  |
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"If a citizen is part of the state apparatus then unless they both decided to go rogue its down to the state if proven, inasmuch as we are being told there will be a lot more we wont be for obvious reasons so it comes down to who one places ones trust in on the issue..
.
I place mine in the legal system of courts, where do you place yours?
see above; 'if proven'.
we both know that there will never be a trial here though so again do we trust in the validity of the evidence presented with the caveats that all Governments lie eg. Iraq or do we ignore the fatal attack..
nice to actually have someone who is a leaver recognise the place our judiciary may play and not as some do to scream they are traitors..
"
.
I gave my reference to government above, I took may with a pinch of salt and listened to the police briefing instead.
Two men are wanted for a crime (your right it seems almost impossible to have them tried here).
I'd like them to see legal justice, even if it means working with the Russian government to see an open trial there. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I still don’t believe that this attack was anything to do with the Russian govt, or indeed Putin himself. That kind of collusion is nowhere to be seen.
I think it was Corbyn, especially if the couple were Jewish.., |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"What proof do we have that they are government agents?"
It has been said that the UK security services know the true identity of both men, but for obvious reasons, they are not going to release the names, just the aliases.
|
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"What proof do we have that they are government agents?"
What proof do us mere mortals have? Very little, if any. However I'd bet that 007 and M have a fair bit.
Also the circumstantial evidence does seem to stack up that way.
1. The nerve agent was a Russian invention.
2. Two Russians flew into the UK on false documents for a two day visit.
3.The same two Russians while staying in east London took a train to Salisbury on both days.
4.They were caught on CCTV not only in the centre of Salisbury but close to the address of the victims.
5. I would very much doubt that the PM would call them out as members of the GRU without having seen something to back it up.
6.The packaging for the nerve agent was sophisticated enough to almost certainly have had some form of government involvement. You don't just knock that up in the spare bedroom.
If Paddy Power or the like open a book on it, I know where I'll put my tenner.
|
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"I still don’t believe that this attack was anything to do with the Russian govt, or indeed Putin himself. That kind of collusion is nowhere to be seen.
I think it was Corbyn, especially if the couple were Jewish..,"
Well he had admitted going in secret to Salisbury.
|
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"What proof do we have that they are government agents?
What proof do us mere mortals have? Very little, if any. However I'd bet that 007 and M have a fair bit.
Also the circumstantial evidence does seem to stack up that way.
1. The nerve agent was a Russian invention.
2. Two Russians flew into the UK on false documents for a two day visit.
3.The same two Russians while staying in east London took a train to Salisbury on both days.
4.They were caught on CCTV not only in the centre of Salisbury but close to the address of the victims.
5. I would very much doubt that the PM would call them out as members of the GRU without having seen something to back it up.
6.The packaging for the nerve agent was sophisticated enough to almost certainly have had some form of government involvement. You don't just knock that up in the spare bedroom.
If Paddy Power or the like open a book on it, I know where I'll put my tenner.
"
1. Yes invented by Russia but not exclusive to Russia
2. How do you know they were Russian if they were false documents? If they were Govt agents why not fly in on another national passport from another country?
3. True.
4. True
5 May would so call them members of GRU without evidence. Fuck me.
6. Not desperately sophisticated. And since when do Govt assassins operate in pairs, use public transport, roam around in front of cctv cameras and frankly be crap at killing people and disposing of the evidence? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!.
A Russian court prosecution? .
I agree it's not ideal but seen as we can never extradite the two men who are wanted I don't see what other option there is?.
If nothing else it gives the Russians an international headache when we present our evidence.
Why would they agree to a trial in Russia when they deny all knowledge of everything?.
I don't know, that's why I said it's up to may to work with them.
What other alternative is there?
What should we concede to Russia to achieve this or how can we punish them further?
All you've really said is that "something must be done"..
You can't punish "Russia" for the actions of two Russian citizens, unless they can prove Russian government involvement.
We have two guys that need to be brought to trial for crimes, under Russian constitution they cannot be extradited to a foreign court so I'd rather something be done than nothing.
What's your thinking?"
If these were two Russian citizens with no government connection then there would be no reason for Russia not to offer to apprehend and try them and no reason to sanction Russia in any way. In fact, surely Russia would be eager to prove that they were not involved? Can you think of a reason that they would not want to do this and have the sanctions lifted and accept abject apologies?
If these were two Russian espionage agents that carried out a state-sponsored attack then there will be no circumstances under which there will be any investigation in Russia. Do you disagree? |
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|
By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"What proof do we have that they are government agents?
What proof do us mere mortals have? Very little, if any. However I'd bet that 007 and M have a fair bit.
Also the circumstantial evidence does seem to stack up that way.
1. The nerve agent was a Russian invention.
2. Two Russians flew into the UK on false documents for a two day visit.
3.The same two Russians while staying in east London took a train to Salisbury on both days.
4.They were caught on CCTV not only in the centre of Salisbury but close to the address of the victims.
5. I would very much doubt that the PM would call them out as members of the GRU without having seen something to back it up.
6.The packaging for the nerve agent was sophisticated enough to almost certainly have had some form of government involvement. You don't just knock that up in the spare bedroom.
If Paddy Power or the like open a book on it, I know where I'll put my tenner.
1. Yes invented by Russia but not exclusive to Russia
2. How do you know they were Russian if they were false documents? If they were Govt agents why not fly in on another national passport from another country?
3. True.
4. True
5 May would so call them members of GRU without evidence. Fuck me.
6. Not desperately sophisticated. And since when do Govt assassins operate in pairs, use public transport, roam around in front of cctv cameras and frankly be crap at killing people and disposing of the evidence?"
1. You know this for a fact? That there is no chemical signature that can tie it to a specific laboratory?
2. Because they want other potential traitors to know that they cannot be kept safe
3.
4.
5. Politicians do sometimes tell the truth too and it's possible that our security services may be competent
6. I don't know any intelligence agents but I'm sure they didn't mind being seen if the intention was to set an example |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I still don’t believe that this attack was anything to do with the Russian govt, or indeed Putin himself. That kind of collusion is nowhere to be seen.
I think it was Corbyn, especially if the couple were Jewish..,"
You use the word "believe" an awful lot regardless of what contradictory information is placed in front of you.
Is there anything that would provide adequate proof? |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I still don’t believe that this attack was anything to do with the Russian govt, or indeed Putin himself. That kind of collusion is nowhere to be seen.
I think it was Corbyn, especially if the couple were Jewish..,
You use the word "believe" an awful lot regardless of what contradictory information is placed in front of you.
Is there anything that would provide adequate proof?"
In fact, not even proof. Substantial suspicion? |
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"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!.
A Russian court prosecution? .
I agree it's not ideal but seen as we can never extradite the two men who are wanted I don't see what other option there is?.
If nothing else it gives the Russians an international headache when we present our evidence.
Why would they agree to a trial in Russia when they deny all knowledge of everything?.
I don't know, that's why I said it's up to may to work with them.
What other alternative is there?
What should we concede to Russia to achieve this or how can we punish them further?
All you've really said is that "something must be done"..
You can't punish "Russia" for the actions of two Russian citizens, unless they can prove Russian government involvement.
We have two guys that need to be brought to trial for crimes, under Russian constitution they cannot be extradited to a foreign court so I'd rather something be done than nothing.
What's your thinking?
If these were two Russian citizens with no government connection then there would be no reason for Russia not to offer to apprehend and try them and no reason to sanction Russia in any way. In fact, surely Russia would be eager to prove that they were not involved? Can you think of a reason that they would not want to do this and have the sanctions lifted and accept abject apologies?
If these were two Russian espionage agents that carried out a state-sponsored attack then there will be no circumstances under which there will be any investigation in Russia. Do you disagree?"
.
Lots and lots of things are possible, however we can only stick with what we can prove so far can't we?.
According to the police media briefing they said there'd got enough evidence for a trial against two Russian citizens for attempted murder,I presume that meant they haven't got evidence of an attempted assassination by the Russian state?.
Russia can either cooperate with an open trial or they don't, if they don't it will look like it definitely had state sponsorship.
|
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!.
A Russian court prosecution? .
I agree it's not ideal but seen as we can never extradite the two men who are wanted I don't see what other option there is?.
If nothing else it gives the Russians an international headache when we present our evidence.
Why would they agree to a trial in Russia when they deny all knowledge of everything?.
I don't know, that's why I said it's up to may to work with them.
What other alternative is there?
What should we concede to Russia to achieve this or how can we punish them further?
All you've really said is that "something must be done"..
You can't punish "Russia" for the actions of two Russian citizens, unless they can prove Russian government involvement.
We have two guys that need to be brought to trial for crimes, under Russian constitution they cannot be extradited to a foreign court so I'd rather something be done than nothing.
What's your thinking?
If these were two Russian citizens with no government connection then there would be no reason for Russia not to offer to apprehend and try them and no reason to sanction Russia in any way. In fact, surely Russia would be eager to prove that they were not involved? Can you think of a reason that they would not want to do this and have the sanctions lifted and accept abject apologies?
If these were two Russian espionage agents that carried out a state-sponsored attack then there will be no circumstances under which there will be any investigation in Russia. Do you disagree?.
Lots and lots of things are possible, however we can only stick with what we can prove so far can't we?.
According to the police media briefing they said there'd got enough evidence for a trial against two Russian citizens for attempted murder,I presume that meant they haven't got evidence of an attempted assassination by the Russian state?.
Russia can either cooperate with an open trial or they don't, if they don't it will look like it definitely had state sponsorship.
"
I would imagine that getting evidence of an assassination order would be quite challenging
So you are agreeing with me, right or I'm agreeing with you if you prefer |
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"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!.
A Russian court prosecution? .
I agree it's not ideal but seen as we can never extradite the two men who are wanted I don't see what other option there is?.
If nothing else it gives the Russians an international headache when we present our evidence.
Why would they agree to a trial in Russia when they deny all knowledge of everything?.
I don't know, that's why I said it's up to may to work with them.
What other alternative is there?
What should we concede to Russia to achieve this or how can we punish them further?
All you've really said is that "something must be done"..
You can't punish "Russia" for the actions of two Russian citizens, unless they can prove Russian government involvement.
We have two guys that need to be brought to trial for crimes, under Russian constitution they cannot be extradited to a foreign court so I'd rather something be done than nothing.
What's your thinking?
If these were two Russian citizens with no government connection then there would be no reason for Russia not to offer to apprehend and try them and no reason to sanction Russia in any way. In fact, surely Russia would be eager to prove that they were not involved? Can you think of a reason that they would not want to do this and have the sanctions lifted and accept abject apologies?
If these were two Russian espionage agents that carried out a state-sponsored attack then there will be no circumstances under which there will be any investigation in Russia. Do you disagree?.
Lots and lots of things are possible, however we can only stick with what we can prove so far can't we?.
According to the police media briefing they said there'd got enough evidence for a trial against two Russian citizens for attempted murder,I presume that meant they haven't got evidence of an attempted assassination by the Russian state?.
Russia can either cooperate with an open trial or they don't, if they don't it will look like it definitely had state sponsorship.
I would imagine that getting evidence of an assassination order would be quite challenging
So you are agreeing with me, right or I'm agreeing with you if you prefer "
.
I prefer we're just having a conversation about a subject |
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By *asyuk OP Man
over a year ago
West London |
"I'm going to wait and see before saying either way, may has used parliament to say things she wouldn't get away with saying elsewhere.
The police interview was less Shazam but more reliable.
They have two Russian citizens who they wish to question about the crime and the cps have enough Intel for a case against them, (Sounds promising).
The Russian constitution apparently doesn't allow for Russian citizens to be extradited to foreign courts so it would be nice to see may work with the Russian government for a Russian court prosecution maybe!.
A Russian court prosecution? .
I agree it's not ideal but seen as we can never extradite the two men who are wanted I don't see what other option there is?.
If nothing else it gives the Russians an international headache when we present our evidence.
Why would they agree to a trial in Russia when they deny all knowledge of everything?.
I don't know, that's why I said it's up to may to work with them.
What other alternative is there?
What should we concede to Russia to achieve this or how can we punish them further?
All you've really said is that "something must be done"..
You can't punish "Russia" for the actions of two Russian citizens, unless they can prove Russian government involvement.
We have two guys that need to be brought to trial for crimes, under Russian constitution they cannot be extradited to a foreign court so I'd rather something be done than nothing.
What's your thinking?
If these were two Russian citizens with no government connection then there would be no reason for Russia not to offer to apprehend and try them and no reason to sanction Russia in any way. In fact, surely Russia would be eager to prove that they were not involved? Can you think of a reason that they would not want to do this and have the sanctions lifted and accept abject apologies?
If these were two Russian espionage agents that carried out a state-sponsored attack then there will be no circumstances under which there will be any investigation in Russia. Do you disagree?.
Lots and lots of things are possible, however we can only stick with what we can prove so far can't we?.
According to the police media briefing they said there'd got enough evidence for a trial against two Russian citizens for attempted murder,I presume that meant they haven't got evidence of an attempted assassination by the Russian state?.
Russia can either cooperate with an open trial or they don't, if they don't it will look like it definitely had state sponsorship.
I would imagine that getting evidence of an assassination order would be quite challenging
So you are agreeing with me, right or I'm agreeing with you if you prefer .
I prefer we're just having a conversation about a subject"
If we agree then what are we discussing? We are allowed to, aren't we? |
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